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Hello!

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Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.

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I'm Kenna.

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I'm Koala.

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Are you excited?

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Yes, I just feel like it's way later in the day because the time change and all that stuff, and I feel like we're rushing but we're not.

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You know, it's that the time change really messes with your perception of time.

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Yeah, it feels like it's time.

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Ten o'clock already.

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It really does.

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But we have a fukinduzi for you all.

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Yeah.

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But we want to talk about it.

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I'm excited.

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You're so funny because like this whole week you've been like, oh my god, this case is such a doozy.

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No.

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Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.

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I was trying not to tell me anything with also while giving me hints but like not.

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She can't contain it.

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Kenna can't contain it.

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She's just like, she has to tell me but she can't.

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Because I live everything internally out loud.

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Yeah.

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But also I think the reason I'm so excited about this one and the listeners already know because I clicked on the episode is that I think that you maybe wanted to do it or you were thinking about doing it.

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I mean, I think it's on your list.

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I hope it's not the same person I'm doing right now.

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Oh, what if it's not the same person?

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Oh no.

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No.

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But I think it's, I mean it's definitely a case that you know.

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I'll just say that.

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Okay.

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But before we get into who it is, let's talk about a couple of other things.

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Would you like to just give everyone our handles really quick and then I'll talk about the DMs and stuff that we've gotten?

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Sure.

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You can check us out at diagnosingatkiller.com.

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There you will find links to merch and resources.

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Check us out on any social media platform at diagnosingatkiller other than X which is atkillerdiagnosis.

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Email us.

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X, that's so funny.

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Please email us.

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Email us.

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Email us.

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No, seriously, we want to hear from you guys.

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Well, talk about the Instagram posts.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Oh my gosh.

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So we actually, first before that, I would like to talk about a DM that we got on Instagram recently and it was from a listener of ours.

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Named Aubrey and she says, hello.

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I love that you guys start your messages with that.

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I love that.

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That like makes my life.

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My name is Aubrey and I just absolutely love y'all's podcast.

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I love anything true crime and I loved how y'all do disorders like ADD which I have and it makes me happy that y'all care about it.

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Y'all make my day every time I listen to y'all so keep up the good work and I love y'all so much.

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Love you.

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Bye.

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Love you.

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Bye.

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Yeah, no, seriously.

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I love that you guys make me happy to have the listeners that we do because they're really getting the concept of what we set out to do.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that's exciting.

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And then we did recently, I'm sure you guys all remember post a suggestion story asking you guys what you wanted to hear and we got a lot of great responses.

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So we made sure to write those down as well as a couple of responses for our mental breakdown topic ideas.

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So thank you guys for responding to those.

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It's cases obviously that we haven't done yet but some that I don't even think we've heard of.

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Right.

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So I'm really interested to look into those.

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And honestly, like we always use the mental breakdown as like a loophole of sorts or not always but sometimes.

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So if there's a case on there that doesn't really fit our dynamic, we can always like pepper it into the mental breakdown.

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I know there's so many people that I'm like, oh, that would be a really interesting case.

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And then I look into it and I'm like, well, they haven't really been diagnosed with anything or they were found not guilty or we need to revisit some of those.

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Exactly.

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But it was really fun when we do like top five or like, you know, certain examples of certain outcomes of cases.

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For sure.

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Absolutely.

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And just lastly, before we get into this case, we are talking about maybe doing a recap episode at the end of the year about all of the cases that we've covered and maybe any updates.

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If you guys have any updates that you want to talk about or any personal stories about any of the people we've already discussed or even any mental breakdowns we've already discussed, let us know.

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And we'll make sure to include that in the episode as well.

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Yeah, we can definitely revisit those topics.

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Okay.

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What?

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Are you ready?

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I'm scared.

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It's like a doozy and a half, honestly.

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Oh, also people commented about the average length of the episode, like their ideal episode.

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We got a lot of about an hour and an hour and a halfers.

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Yay.

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This episode is going to be longer than that.

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But I think we're kind of on the right track because we kind of have every once in a while maybe like a 45 minute episode and then we have like an hour and a half episode and an hour and then we kind of like go back and forth.

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So I feel like everyone's kind of getting what they think is their ideal length.

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Yeah, sure.

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I definitely have been one of those people that I'll listen to the really long episodes of something and then they have little 20 minute ones and I'm like, you know what, I've been just all of the long ones.

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Yeah.

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I'm going to go back and listen to the shorter ones.

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I can do a 20 minute.

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I can do a two hour.

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Yeah.

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Exactly.

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So thank you guys for all of your feedback.

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We're going to really try to be better about reaching out to you guys and getting your input because obviously you guys make this show possible.

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So we really appreciate it.

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Are you ready?

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I already said are you ready earlier?

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I'm just like my nerves are shot because I keep...

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You're like, oh wait, yeah, I'm going to tell you who I am.

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Or who I am.

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I'm telling you.

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I'm telling you what I'm doing.

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This is me.

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I'm kind of, I'm Quelle.

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Yeah.

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I know that, yeah, just tell me, David.

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Okay.

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So we're going to be talking about Ed Kimber, aka the coed killer.

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I wanted to do this case.

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So sorry.

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So sorry.

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We did.

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We talked a long time ago about me doing this case.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Well, I'm very encouraged by the fact that it's long because...

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No.

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Oh yeah.

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No, there's a lot of info.

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And I really don't know a lot about him.

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I just remember him from that Mine Hunter show.

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Yes.

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And that's where he got a lot of his recognizable, I don't know the word I'm thinking of.

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Cameron Britton.

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Yes.

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He did so good at him because I went back and I looked at side by side videos with Cameron

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Britton and Edmund Kimber.

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And I was like, oh my God, it's uncanny.

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Yes.

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He's so good.

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I will say that while this episode is extremely detailed, there's a lot more that you can look

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at documentary wise.

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Mine Hunter, like you said, interview wise that I didn't put in here just for the sake

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of like not having a three hour episode.

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But I mean, it's going to be very detailed nonetheless.

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Okay.

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I'm excited.

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Content warning, this episode contains depictions of animal abuse, tile neglect, sexual assault,

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murder including minors, negative ideations of specific groups of people, necrophilia,

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extremely graphic defamation of a corpse, talk of cannibalism, and suicide.

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If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.

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Remember, your mental health is extremely important to us and we love you.

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Love you.

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Bye.

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So yeah, there's that.

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There's that.

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This is a doozy of a case for this non-patreon.

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I'm just realizing that.

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No, yeah.

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And we definitely want to make sure that we're not just doing the really crazy extreme cases

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for Patreon because as much as we love our Patreon members, we love all of our listeners.

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And we want everyone to get like the graphic content.

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And especially now that we're doing the content warning, it's like why shouldn't we, you know,

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put all that in there.

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Alright, so without further dudes, we're gonna get into this.

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Further ado.

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I know what it's actually.

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Yeah, right.

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It's not one of your, and this speaks.

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Yes.

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Edmund Emil Kemper III was born on December 18th, 1948 in Burbank, California to parents

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Clarnel Elizabeth Strandberg Kemper and Edmund Emil Kemper II.

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Clarnel.

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Oh, and we'll hear that name a lot throughout this case.

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In 1943, the Kemper's would welcome their first child, Susan Huey, to the world.

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Huey.

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Huey.

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And they would go on to have two more children, Ed in 1948 and Alan Lee in 1951.

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Alan is A-L-L-Y-N, but she is his sister.

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Oh, Alan.

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Oh, okay.

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His sister.

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Okay.

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Yes.

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Like an Allison.

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Like Allie.

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Yeah.

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Maybe it is Allie.

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I don't know.

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A-L-L-Y-N, right?

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Yeah, I think Alan.

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Yeah.

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So, Edmund Emil Kemper II was a World War II veteran, so the father, and after leaving

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the war, he worked testing nuclear weapons at the Pacific Proving Grounds.

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When the couple moved to California, Edmund Jr. again the father would begin work as an

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electrician.

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Clarnel was known about often complaining about Edmund's electrician job, calling it

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quote, menial, end quote.

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Edmund Jr. would later say about his life that quote, suicide missions and wartime and

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the atomic bomb testings were nothing compared to living with Clarnel.

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Oh, damn.

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Well, she's all like, I think, medial.

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You're just in like fishing.

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Also, like, does she work or?

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Oh, no.

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Okay, well, then she can just shove it.

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No, literally.

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And like, she's the worst.

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He would add that Clarnel had an effect on him that was quote, more than 396 days and

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nights of fighting on the front did.

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What?

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So like, he was saying like living with her was worse than the war.

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His wife was worse than the war.

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Yeah.

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Oh my God.

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There is evidence and we'll talk about it that she was also very mentally ill.

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Okay.

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When Ed was born, so this is Edmund the third, he came in on a whopping 13 pounds.

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I'm sorry, no wonder she was a little order.

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That literally hurts me.

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So 13 pounds.

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Oh, God.

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So it was no surprise that he was an entire head taller than his classmates by the time

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he reached elementary school.

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He was just a big boy.

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Big kid.

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I mean, he was six nine in adulthood.

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Yeah, that's true.

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Clarnel was by all accounts a physically and emotionally abusive alcoholic who made quite

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the negative impact on Ed's life growing up.

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She was known as locking Ed in the basement alone at night on several occasions as well

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as a child.

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What?

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So most sources said that the thought like Clarnel's thought behind locking Ed in the

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basement was that she thought that he was going to sexually assault his younger sister.

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I couldn't tell if it was like because of something that had happened that maybe suggested

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he might or it might have just been entirely entirely in her head.

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Yeah, like a like a dalulu or some kind.

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Yes.

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It is thought that Clarnel possibly suffered from borderline personality disorder, but

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this was never officially diagnosed.

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Yeah.

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On top of all of the abuse, Clarnel was noted also noted, excuse me, as refusing to coddle

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Ed when he was throwing up, especially in times of distress, fearing that it would quote

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turn him gay and quote.

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So she couldn't be nurturing because she was afraid that he would be gay.

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Yeah, like that's the worst thing in the world.

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Was she like nurturing to the other kids though?

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It didn't really say I kind of seem like she was cold all the way around, but like especially

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the Ed, she's like, oh, if you're upset, like go away from me.

251
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:02,920
Like I'm not going to hug you.

252
00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,200
We can also assume this is likely from Ed's perspective as well, right?

253
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:07,200
Yes.

254
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,560
It's going to be from his like understanding, right?

255
00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:11,560
Yeah.

256
00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:16,800
So having no emotional connectivity, Ed would turn to unusual behaviors growing up.

257
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,320
He would frequently be known to steal his older sister Susan's dolls, like her Barbie

258
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,320
dolls and remove their heads.

259
00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:24,320
What?

260
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:25,320
At what age is this?

261
00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,320
I mean, he was like, I mean, he's only under 10.

262
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:28,320
Yeah.

263
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,320
I mean, he was young.

264
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:30,320
Yeah.

265
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,720
Ed would comment on this behavior later in his life quote, I remember there was actually

266
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,080
a sexual thrill.

267
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,400
You hear that little pop and pull their heads off and hold them up by the hair, whipping

268
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,960
their heads off, their body's sitting there, that would get me off.

269
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:43,960
End quote.

270
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:44,960
So it probably wasn't five.

271
00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,280
Maybe it was like 12 or something.

272
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:48,360
I mean, I wouldn't want to know.

273
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,920
I wouldn't know.

274
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:55,680
I feel like on set with alongside like sexual abuses earlier than someone who hasn't.

275
00:11:55,680 --> 00:12:01,920
But again, we don't know if that was something that had been perpetrated against him.

276
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:07,040
And maybe that's why his mom was very like, he has been abused, was the likelihood of

277
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,480
him abusing one of his sisters.

278
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:09,480
Yeah.

279
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:10,480
I mean, that makes a lot of sense.

280
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:11,480
Yeah.

281
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,480
Or maybe she knew about the Barbie doll thing, which is to be...

282
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:14,480
I don't know.

283
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:15,480
I don't know.

284
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:20,560
Ed was also noted as borrowing his dad's bayonet and going to his second grade teacher's home.

285
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:24,400
This was after he was obviously out of second grade, so like his past teacher was walking

286
00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,720
down the street with a bayonet at six.

287
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,640
Here he would watch his teacher through the windows.

288
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:35,600
On one occasion when his sister Susan jokingly asked him why he didn't try to kiss his teacher

289
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,240
ever, Ed responded with quote, if I kiss her, I'd have to kill her first.

290
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,240
End quote.

291
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,000
Like as a kid.

292
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,400
Like he already knew though that like that was, it was hand in hand.

293
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:48,400
Yes.

294
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:53,640
Like she's like, I don't know if it was this complex at a young age, but I think that the

295
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:59,880
thought behind it maybe growing up was, I can't get that to happen to me.

296
00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,200
To me unless someone is against their will.

297
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,040
Like it's not something that's going to come easily to me.

298
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,440
And it's probably another thing that his mom was constantly like feared that he was going

299
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:10,440
to turn gay.

300
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:11,920
She probably said that to him a lot, you know?

301
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,680
And maybe that was a complex.

302
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:15,480
Yeah, that's interesting.

303
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:22,640
I think so you're saying that because she kept saying that to him that he was like being

304
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,000
intimate with someone must be impossible for me.

305
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,400
Yeah, I feel like it's so out of reach.

306
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:28,400
Kind of.

307
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:29,400
Yeah.

308
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,280
I know that's an interesting question on my part.

309
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,640
As an adult, Ed would look back on his childhood and recall that some of his favorite games

310
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:40,720
to play as a kid would be what he called gas chamber and electric chair.

311
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:41,720
Oh, cute.

312
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:42,720
Yeah.

313
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,440
He would ask one of his sisters to flip an imaginary switch and when they did, Ed would

314
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:52,000
either fall on the floor and act as if he was like suffocating from the gas or being

315
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,000
electrocuted.

316
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,320
I bet the neighborhood kids loved to play that game.

317
00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:56,320
Oh, for sure.

318
00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:57,560
Yeah, it was the hottest new game.

319
00:13:57,560 --> 00:13:58,560
So, so popular.

320
00:13:58,560 --> 00:13:59,560
Yeah, it is.

321
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:00,560
Next to tag.

322
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:01,560
It was the most popular game.

323
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:03,400
Yeah, exactly.

324
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,520
Ed was known as being quite the troublemaker while in grade school exhibiting anti-social

325
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,160
behaviors and cruelty to animals.

326
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:17,080
At the age of 10, Ed had buried one of their pet cats alive and then dug it up again, proceeded

327
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,680
to decapitate it and then mounted its head on a spike.

328
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,680
Yeah.

329
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:24,880
Whoa.

330
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,000
Ed would later admit that around this time, he would find immense pleasure in lying to

331
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:34,800
his parents and family members about being responsible for the death of their family cat.

332
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,200
So he, he enjoyed lying saying that he didn't?

333
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:43,960
Yeah, like he liked the secrecy of like getting away with like this and no one knew, like

334
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,360
no one was the wiser.

335
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,960
At the age of 13, Ed had begun to notice another one of the family cats was taking a liking

336
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,320
to his sister, Alan.

337
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,120
In response to this, Ed would kill this cat as well.

338
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,360
He would actually keep pieces of this cat in his closet for a while until his mother

339
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,000
would come across them.

340
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,520
Nothing happened after that.

341
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:06,520
Nothing.

342
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:07,520
Yeah, she was just like, oh, boys will be boys.

343
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:08,520
Yeah, that's weird.

344
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:09,520
Yeah.

345
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:10,520
At least he's not gay.

346
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:11,520
Oh, God.

347
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:12,520
That is terrible.

348
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:13,520
That is seriously terrible.

349
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:14,520
But you know, she's both in the back.

350
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:15,520
I mean, that's true.

351
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:16,520
Yeah.

352
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:21,280
It was not clear at what point Ed began feeling that he wanted to harm people, but he was

353
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,120
noted as saying in a later interview about when seeing a pretty girl, quote, one side

354
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,280
of me says, I'd like to talk to her, date her.

355
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,600
The other side says, I wonder how her head would look on a stick, end quote.

356
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,400
That's wild.

357
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,960
Like how is that not?

358
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,040
I don't know.

359
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,880
That's just, how do you have two halves of yourself say that?

360
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:45,880
I just don't.

361
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:46,880
It doesn't make sense.

362
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,080
It's like, no, here's the thing.

363
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:53,360
He feels that second way all the time, but his moral compass supposedly is trying to

364
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:54,360
tell him otherwise.

365
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:55,360
Yeah, that makes sense.

366
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,440
It's just like, oh, should I take this route home or this route home?

367
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,360
Well, either way, you're going to get home, right?

368
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:01,360
Yeah.

369
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,680
Well, I will learn that he knows a lot about psychology as well.

370
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:06,680
Yeah.

371
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,440
So he probably studied himself a lot.

372
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:10,840
Of course.

373
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,280
So this is extremely interesting, and I'm really excited to bring this up because this

374
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:21,440
is the first time ever that I have come across an extremely detailed analysis of an interview

375
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,520
of the person that we're talking about.

376
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,080
So while doing my research, I came across an article in which criminal psychologist,

377
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:33,280
her name is Adrienne Arno, was analyzing an interview with Ed that was given, of course,

378
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:34,840
later in life.

379
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,960
This article is written by one Kelly Christ, and I'll link the website, of course, which

380
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,680
I found the information in the show notes, but I'm going to include every quote that

381
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,680
was on the website in this episode because I think it's really important, especially

382
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,400
because we're going the psychology angle.

383
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,440
Yeah, and it's his own words.

384
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:56,360
Well, it's not quotes from him, it's quotes from Adrienne's analysis of the interview.

385
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,680
But I'll kind of say what Ed was saying in the interview because I didn't watch the interview,

386
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,160
I just read the interpretation of it.

387
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,840
So I'll kind of say what he was saying and then what Adrienne's response was.

388
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,600
So we're going to get into the beginning of this interview.

389
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:13,560
Ed explains why he hated his mother growing up, but he also states that he tried to

390
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:14,560
love her.

391
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:15,560
Okay.

392
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,680
Again, these are really like very vague kind of comments, but you'll understand more when

393
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:20,680
Adrienne talks.

394
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,400
So, Adrienne's analysis of this part is as follows.

395
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,560
Quote, tragically, we see this a lot in my line of work.

396
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,760
A broken and or abusive relationship with the mother creates an environment ripe to grow

397
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,400
a serial killer.

398
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,300
Ed Kimper's mother hated men.

399
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:37,320
She bred this hate into her children.

400
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,600
So Ed, being male gendered, grew up in a world paradigm where he believed he was bad and

401
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,840
never had any intervention to challenge his mother's warped worldview.

402
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,080
Kimper was a ticking time bomb probably by the age of seven or eight, which is the age

403
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,960
when we form the foundation of our personalities.

404
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,240
It's in our primitive nature to want the love and acceptance of our mothers, both biological

405
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:02,400
and neurologically speaking, but the more Ed tries to win her love, the more he fails.

406
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,120
The ultimate irony being that in his own actions to punish his toxic mother and rebel against

407
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:10,120
her beliefs about men, he only proved her right.

408
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:14,400
She force-fed child Ed and paradigm men are terrible and in his efforts to break free

409
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,280
of her prediction, he fully becomes the monster she always said he was.

410
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,320
It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy or something.

411
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:23,320
No, yeah, absolutely.

412
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,160
But she's so right.

413
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,680
He's trying so hard to please her and she's shoving him off and then she's saying, oh,

414
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,000
all men are like, ugh, you know?

415
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,000
And she's like, well, you're being like that, you know?

416
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,840
And then creating a monster, I mean, essentially.

417
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:42,480
They're both proving their points, I guess, right?

418
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:48,880
Like her point is being able to be proven by his behavior and his point, eventually,

419
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,040
you know, I'm sure we'll see that it comes out.

420
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,480
His is that all women are disgusted by him.

421
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:55,480
Of course.

422
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,080
And he's always gonna, he feels like the only way he can obtain it is to take it.

423
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,080
Of course.

424
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,080
Huh.

425
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,980
Without knowing the exact age, all sources point to two near-death experiences that Ed

426
00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:09,800
had as a child, both at the hands of his older sister, by the way.

427
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,840
So the first one, his older sister Susan pushed him in front of a train.

428
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,920
And the second one, in which the same sister Susan pushed him into the deep end of a swimming

429
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,400
pool where he almost drowned.

430
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:20,400
Oh my gosh.

431
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,400
So she's probably learning the behavior from the mother.

432
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:23,400
Yeah.

433
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,480
And now he's feeling like all women hate me.

434
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,160
Especially older or, well, I guess, people, yeah.

435
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:30,880
And I don't know what's going on with Susan.

436
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,800
I didn't really see much more information on those two experiences.

437
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:34,800
Yeah.

438
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:35,800
Both at the hands of her.

439
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:36,800
Yeah.

440
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,600
Like I said, I'm sure she's just trying to emulate her mother.

441
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,080
And she doesn't have an older male figure to look up to like the younger sister does

442
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,080
with Ed.

443
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:44,080
Right.

444
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,080
Yeah.

445
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,080
Ed was noted in a later interview about his, this time in his life, quote, when I was

446
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,280
in school, I was called a chronic daydreamer and I saw a counselor twice during junior

447
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,440
high and high school.

448
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,080
And that was very routine.

449
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,680
They didn't ask me a lot of questions about myself and that was probably the most violent

450
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,480
fantasy time I was often to end quote.

451
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:02,480
Hmm.

452
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,400
And I'm trying to like essentially just give him advice or just check in on him.

453
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:07,400
Yeah.

454
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,560
But not asking him what was actually going on in his head.

455
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:10,560
Yeah.

456
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:11,560
It's just like a guidance.

457
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,000
It's not necessarily like therapy.

458
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,320
Yeah.

459
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,800
While the relationship he had with his mother was nothing short of tumultuous, Ed was noted

460
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,600
as having a really good relationship with his father.

461
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:28,920
When his parents separated in 1957 and eventually divorced in 1961, Ed was notably devastated.

462
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,920
During the separation, Ed was sent to live with his mother and Helena Montana against

463
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,920
his wishes.

464
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,520
Among the abuse he was suffering, Clarnel would frequently mock Ed for his size as he

465
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:45,200
stood six feet four inches tall or 1.93 meters for our non-American listeners by the age

466
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,200
of 15.

467
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:47,720
Oh my gosh.

468
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:48,720
That's tall.

469
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:49,720
That's tall.

470
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:50,720
That's very tall.

471
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:51,720
15.

472
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:52,720
We have tall cousins though.

473
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:53,720
I pretty sure the boys were about that tall.

474
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:54,720
Yeah.

475
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:55,720
15.

476
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:56,720
That's true.

477
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:57,720
We were playing basketball and football.

478
00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:58,720
Yeah.

479
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,480
It's really interesting that she would hate on him so much, but when the opportunity arose

480
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,240
for him to stay with his dad, she didn't allow that.

481
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,080
Well, it might have been the dad too, just being like, I don't want this life or whatever

482
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:11,480
because he didn't want anything to do with her.

483
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,480
Right?

484
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:13,480
So he's like, you just take the kids.

485
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:14,480
Yeah.

486
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:20,360
But also, it's like, I feel like this is kind of, I want to say, like, meticulous, like

487
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:24,720
on the mom's part, because I feel like she's like, okay, he's like much bigger than me.

488
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,920
I need to ridicule him so that he still feels smaller even though physically he is bigger.

489
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:30,920
That's true.

490
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,920
And like, eventually one day, you know, that's, I feel like that might be a scary moment

491
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,720
for a lot of parents.

492
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,440
You know, when your kid starts getting bigger and you're like, oh my God, they're like,

493
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:41,440
like, they're bigger than me.

494
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,360
They're like a quarter of my age and they're like huge.

495
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:45,360
Yeah.

496
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:46,360
Yeah.

497
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:49,640
You know, they could beat me up at any moment.

498
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:57,080
Yeah, I find, you know, also to the point of the dad not taking the kids or at least

499
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:02,640
Ed, you know, this is also in the 1950s where I think a lot of women were expected to raise

500
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:03,640
the children.

501
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:04,640
Yeah, absolutely.

502
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,680
So yeah, when you divorce the dude, the money and the man are gone, right?

503
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,520
And then you're left with the kids to fend for yourself.

504
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,960
At one point, Ed was eavesdropping on a phone conversation with his mother and father, seemingly

505
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,040
wanting to know what his dad was doing, so he's like, oh, we're on the whole of dad.

506
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,880
His mom didn't know he was listening.

507
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,920
When he overheard his mother refer to him as quote, a real weirdo and quote.

508
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,760
He's a real weirdo.

509
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:28,920
Okay.

510
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,640
In a later interview, regardless of his want to please his mother as a child, Ed would

511
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,920
refer to her as a quote, sick, angry woman and quote, suggesting that she was mentally

512
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:38,920
ill.

513
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:39,920
Yeah.

514
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,640
At the age of 14, Ed would take it upon himself to leave the home in search of his father.

515
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,720
When he reconnected with his dad and van noise, I think, say, California, he was shocked to

516
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,920
find that his dad had remarried and he now had a stepson.

517
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,560
Ed would continue to live with his dad and the family for a short while until he was

518
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,880
eventually sent to live with his paternal grandparents, Edmund Sr. and Mod Kemper on

519
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,440
the foothills of Sierra Nevada, about two miles west of North Fork, California.

520
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,440
Okay.

521
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,320
So his dad's parents, obviously.

522
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,440
Ed would describe his time with his grandparents negatively, stating that his grandfather

523
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,600
was quote, senile and quote, and his grandmother quote, was constantly emasculating me and

524
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,680
my grandfather and quote.

525
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:28,520
So again, another strong woman or perceived to be a strong woman, strong headed woman,

526
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:29,520
I guess.

527
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:30,520
Yeah.

528
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,680
He would state that his grandmother quote, thought she had more balls than any man and

529
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,240
was constantly emasculating me and my grandfather to prove it and quote.

530
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:38,240
Oh my gosh.

531
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,320
Like all of the, yeah, right, all the women in his life that are older than him are like

532
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,800
this like gun hoe like women, you know, kind of thing.

533
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,600
Yeah, with an iron fist.

534
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,880
Ed would also later state about his grandmother as well quote, I couldn't please her.

535
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,200
It was like being in jail.

536
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:56,960
I became a walking time mom and I finally blew and quote.

537
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,200
Ed would explain that before he was sent to live with his grandparents, he had taken an

538
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,400
extreme liking and learning about firearms.

539
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,840
He had even obtained a rifle while living with them that his grandfather would purchase

540
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,560
for him with the idea of hunting.

541
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,480
However, his grandmother did not like the fact that Ed was using the rifle to shoot

542
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,240
birds and he would, she would quickly confiscate the weapon from him.

543
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,760
It's like the only sense of control he actually feels like he has.

544
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,840
On August 27th, 1964, a 15 year old Ed was sitting at the kitchen table with his grandmother

545
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,480
when the two began arguing.

546
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,880
Extremely irritated from the contents of the disagreement, Ed got up from the table and

547
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,520
stormed off.

548
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,240
Unbeknownst to his grandmother, Ed had gone to retrieve the rifle that had since been

549
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,360
taken away from him.

550
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:44,360
Ed would re-enter the kitchen, coming up to his grandmother from behind and first shoot

551
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:46,520
her in the back of the head.

552
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,760
Ed would then fire two more shots into his grandmother's back.

553
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,680
According to Ed, his grandmother's final words were quote, oh you'd better not be shooting

554
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,240
the birds again, end quote.

555
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,720
Now the comment of him shooting her in the back of the head is speculation on my part

556
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,600
since he shot her in the back following this.

557
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,760
But the comment may not make sense, like how would she know he has a gun?

558
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,760
Well it's literally like, I'm sorry but like her brain was dying.

559
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,440
Well I think that he may have like cocked the gun or something that indicated he was

560
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,440
holding it.

561
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,440
Oh you're gonna shoot birds again?

562
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,240
And she heard that exactly and that's probably how she knew he had the gun.

563
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,880
Some accounts mention that Maude was also inflicted with several stab wounds as well

564
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,440
as the bullet wounds but this has never been confirmed.

565
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,200
So where's Edmund Sr. at the grandfather?

566
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,040
He was out grocery shopping at the time.

567
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,400
Oh it was just the two of them?

568
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,400
Yes.

569
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,000
After killing his grandmother, Ed's grandfather would come home from the grocery store.

570
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,280
Ed would meet his grandfather outside in the driveway with the gun and fatally shoot him

571
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,120
as well next to his car.

572
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:47,760
He didn't do anything wrong though.

573
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,640
After killing both of his grandparents, Ed found himself not knowing where to turn or

574
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,120
what to do.

575
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,920
He would actually phone his mother and tell her of what he just did.

576
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:57,920
What?

577
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,800
Clarnel would advise Ed to call the police to which he did and he would await their arrival

578
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,720
to take him into custody at the house.

579
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,960
I actually think he sat on the front porch.

580
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:06,960
End of the story?

581
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,040
Yeah right and he was gone forever.

582
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,280
It is interesting though that he would first phone his mom.

583
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,920
It's like either he wanted that shock factor of like look what you made me do or he's still

584
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,240
in his mind like seeking her approval.

585
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:20,240
Yeah.

586
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:28,520
Like yeah I think that it would be like he's still wanting that nurture right from her

587
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,440
but maybe it is also like an omen.

588
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,080
You know like maybe this is like look this could have been you.

589
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,440
I did this because of you.

590
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,400
Well the thing is too it's not even her parent.

591
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:43,000
This is dad's parents and he didn't call his dad first which is interesting.

592
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,200
Police would show up at the home and arrest Ed who stated to their question of why that

593
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,520
he quote just wanted to see what it felt like to kill grandma and quote.

594
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,360
Oh yeah that good old nostalgic feeling.

595
00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:58,000
We all know that feeling.

596
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,680
As far as his grandfather's death Ed stated that he killed his grandfather so that he

597
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,360
didn't have to walk into the home and see his wife dead and also that he knew he would

598
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,000
be angry with him for killing her.

599
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,000
Yeah.

600
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,840
So he's like you know what I'm just gonna put him out of his misery so to speak.

601
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,800
So maybe yeah maybe it's just not the beef with like because it's his dad's parents because

602
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,720
it's it's more of the beef with the woman.

603
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:20,720
Yeah.

604
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,720
And maybe that's why he also didn't call his dad and be like I shot your mom.

605
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:24,720
Yeah.

606
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,480
And he's like he loved his dad and wanted to protect his dad so he doesn't he's not

607
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,880
gonna call with that information and that's true.

608
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,080
So it makes for the whole him not killing his grandfather or not wanting his grandfather

609
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,160
to deal with the pain more believable.

610
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,160
That's actually really true.

611
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,600
I didn't think about it that way.

612
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,240
Psychiatrist Donald Lundy would later interview Ed regarding these crimes.

613
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,080
He stated quote in his way he had avenged the rejection of both his father and his mother

614
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:54,280
and quote because rejection so to speak when his father left.

615
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,600
After being taken into custody Ed would undergo a series of psychological tests.

616
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,280
He would be subsequently diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia despite his IQ being tested

617
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:04,280
at a 136.

618
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:05,280
Oh 136.

619
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,680
Very above average.

620
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:08,680
What was Bundy?

621
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,000
Oh God he was like probably about the same.

622
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,000
140.

623
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,000
I don't know.

624
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,160
I think he was probably about the same.

625
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,160
Let's look it up.

626
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,360
So Bundy was you said Kemper was 136.

627
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:19,360
So so was Bundy.

628
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:20,360
Oh interesting.

629
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:23,240
And Dahmer was the one that had a higher IQ at 144.

630
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,240
Oh got it.

631
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,240
Dahmer.

632
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,240
Really?

633
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:27,240
Yeah.

634
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:28,240
Well he has some old meat in my freezer.

635
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,640
I mean I'm not saying that he didn't seem smart.

636
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:31,640
He didn't act smart.

637
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,360
He just yeah.

638
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:34,680
I guess it's the accent.

639
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,680
Oh God don't say that.

640
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,080
We're gonna get so much hate for like freezer.

641
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,600
It's like okay your IQ is 144.

642
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,000
You have rad meat in your freezer.

643
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,000
Get rid of it.

644
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,000
Get rid of it.

645
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,000
Throw it away.

646
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,000
Throw it away.

647
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,200
So Ed would not be sent to jail but instead to the Atos Gadero State Hospital for the

648
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,960
criminally insane, a maximum security facility in St. Louis Abizbo County that houses mentally

649
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:58,960
ill conflicts.

650
00:28:58,960 --> 00:28:59,960
Whoa.

651
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,200
Long sentence but because of his diagnosis.

652
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,320
While there the California youth authority psychiatrist and social workers working with

653
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,480
Ed would disagree with the court's findings that Ed was suffering with paranoid schizophrenia.

654
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,200
In fact their report stated that Ed showed quote, no flight of ideas, no interference

655
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,440
with thought, no expression of delusions or hallucinations, and no evidence of bizarre

656
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,720
thinking end quote.

657
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,040
The St. Louis Abizbo place was that I think one of the toolbox killers was actually there.

658
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,920
We have had multiple people that have been there and we've talked about yeah.

659
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,200
Well because you know everything happens in California.

660
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,920
Everything happens in California.

661
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:37,920
Everybody thinks it's Florida.

662
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:38,920
That's not true.

663
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,240
So the people at the California youth authority used the evidence of Ed's high IQ and the

664
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,360
fact that they observed him to be quote intelligent and introspective end quote as a reason to

665
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,480
write him off as not mentally ill.

666
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,960
In turn these psychiatrists would re-diagnose him with a quote, personality trait disturbance

667
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,360
passive aggressive type.

668
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,920
I mean that still sounds like a mental illness.

669
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,920
I wonder if it's in the I-10.

670
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:05,920
I don't know.

671
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,040
I want to look it up.

672
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,960
Ed would spend the next six years in this facility with his final IQ test scoring an impressive

673
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:13,960
145.

674
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:14,960
Oh my gosh.

675
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,960
Like got smarter while he was there.

676
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,960
I just keep getting smarter.

677
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:19,960
Right.

678
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,600
During his time incarcerated Ed would impress his psychiatrist by being a model prisoner

679
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,960
and he was even trained to administer psychiatric tests to other inmates.

680
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:29,960
Okay.

681
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:30,960
Keep that in mind.

682
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,960
I was going to say what a career.

683
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,960
Then he just got better and he became a psychologist.

684
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:36,960
Right.

685
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:37,960
That would be the best story.

686
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:38,960
Right.

687
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,160
One psychiatrist he worked under during this time would later state about Ed quote, he

688
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,720
was a very good worker and this is not a typical of a sociopath.

689
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,160
He really took pride in his work and quote, I feel like that is a sign of a sociopath

690
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:52,320
because you can fake it.

691
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,920
Well, yeah, or at least some type of like, like it said earlier, personality disorder

692
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:02,080
like a narcissism or something that, yeah, that you have to take like a huge amounts

693
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,080
amount of pride in your work.

694
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,920
But the difference is, I think that narcissists think that they're doing better than they

695
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:07,920
actually are.

696
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:08,920
Yeah, exactly.

697
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,520
And in this case maybe Kemper was actually performing at a really great high level.

698
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,480
I mean she looked like you, you know.

699
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,600
On top of this, Ed would become a member of the JCs while in Ades Canaro and he would

700
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,880
claim to have developed quote, some new test and some new scales on the Minnesota multi-phasic

701
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,720
personality inventory and quote.

702
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,000
So I'll talk about that in a second, but the JCs, isn't that BTK?

703
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,920
I thought it was, I thought it was Gacy.

704
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,320
One of them was like a huge Gacy or a huge, yeah it was Gacy because JC, right?

705
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:38,320
Yeah.

706
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:39,320
Yeah.

707
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:40,320
Crazy.

708
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,640
Like not crazy, but just like coincidental like this.

709
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:50,200
So this Minnesota multi-phasic personality inventory is a standardized test of psychopathy

710
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,200
and adult personality.

711
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,560
So Ed like had claimed to have like helped them like rewrite like new things to like

712
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,300
test people on essentially.

713
00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:00,920
So he learned a lot.

714
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:07,680
On December 18th, 1969 on Ed's 21st birthday, he would be released on parole from Ades Canaro.

715
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:08,880
I can't say that word very well.

716
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:09,880
Happy birthday.

717
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:10,880
Right.

718
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,120
While he was eligible for parole at this time, for some reason, Ed would be released into

719
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,880
the care of his mother, Clarnel, against the advice of his psychiatrist.

720
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,600
Yeah, please just do that.

721
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,520
Just send him away to the person that literally fucking went with him.

722
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:25,520
Retramatizing him.

723
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:26,520
Yeah.

724
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,240
And we always say like, he was, I mean he was there for six years, like the routine,

725
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,080
everything like that, model prisoner, regardless of his diagnoses, like he seemed to have been

726
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,000
doing really well.

727
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,600
Not that I could see any like inmate violence or anything like that, you know?

728
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:45,760
He needed like a halfway house or a reintegration of some kind instead of just thrusting him

729
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,960
back into the chaos.

730
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,120
He needed like anything.

731
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,080
Literally anything would have been better.

732
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,960
Clarnel had sensory married while Ed was incarcerated, changing her last name to Stranberg, which

733
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,200
I actually said that last name in her in the beginning and I thought it was her maiden

734
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:03,200
name, but I was wrong.

735
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,160
So that's her, that was her married name after his father.

736
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,920
But she had also been divorced twice since Ed had seen her last.

737
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,280
She had been married three times at this point and divorced.

738
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:12,280
In six years?

739
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:13,280
Yes.

740
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:14,280
Oh my gosh.

741
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,880
Clarnel was working as an administrative assistant at the University of California, Santa Cruz,

742
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,320
when Ed came to live with her.

743
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,400
Ed would continue to see psychiatrists during his parole period and was actually able to

744
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:31,720
get his juvenile criminal record expunged after progress in treatment on November 29th, 1972.

745
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,800
Okay, so it's like it's still, I mean he's still moving in a certain positive direction.

746
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:37,800
Yes.

747
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,360
The final report from his parole psychiatrist stated, quote, if I were to see this patient

748
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,600
without having any history available or getting any history from him, I would think that we're

749
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,040
dealing with a very well adjusted young man who had had initiative, intelligence, and

750
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,440
who was free from any psychiatric illnesses.

751
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,680
It is my opinion that he has made a very excellent response to the years of treatment

752
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,720
and rehabilitation, and I would see no psychiatric reason to consider him to be of any danger

753
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,600
to himself or to any member of society.

754
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,480
Because it may allow him more freedom as an adult to develop his potential, I would consider

755
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,680
it reasonable to have a permanent expungent of his juvenile records, end quote.

756
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:22,640
Which like breaks my heart because if he didn't go back in with his mom, none of this

757
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,960
other shit that we're talking about, I mean it's not the end, you know, we're only fucking

758
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,560
30 minutes in and we have a long way to go.

759
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,160
Clearly this didn't last.

760
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,400
That is really fucking sad.

761
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:34,400
Like really sad.

762
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,680
I mean like I'm not gonna blame everything on Clarnel, but like she clearly had a huge

763
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,360
hand in the way that Ed's psyche developed.

764
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,960
And by the time he got out he was in his 20s.

765
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,320
He was 21.

766
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,920
So yeah, I mean, again I'm not saying that it's not his choice because really it could

767
00:34:52,920 --> 00:35:00,680
be the court saying, especially if he's being released from juvenile courts or whatever,

768
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,560
then you know they probably do have to have some kind of a placement for him with a family

769
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,000
member.

770
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,320
But that's just like...

771
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:14,400
Personally, I think like, because what it seems like to me is that after six years he

772
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,000
was released, he was on parole, after his parole ended he literally just lost all the

773
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,000
treatment.

774
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,000
Yeah.

775
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,520
I think that, I mean maybe he was on medication, maybe he wasn't, I didn't see anything, you

776
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,200
know, with either side.

777
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:32,520
But like you've been diagnosed with multiple different things, continue to see someone.

778
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,720
Even if you're not, I mean it's not, I guess it wasn't being paid for anymore because it

779
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:38,520
wasn't part of his, you know, parole.

780
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,760
So I don't know if that's the reason, but yeah.

781
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:47,200
Like literally like this guy was like, oh no, don't see any reason to further treatment,

782
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,520
he's cured.

783
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,920
But also it's like, psychiatrists nowadays, I would hope that they know that like there's

784
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,720
no cure for what he was diagnosed with.

785
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:59,920
It's not like you take medication for six months and you're fine for forever.

786
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:00,920
Yeah.

787
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,480
And would state after his second arrest that the education he got from administering the

788
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,200
personality test during his first dent in prison helped him manipulate his psychiatrist

789
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,840
into thinking that he was okay when he most definitely was not.

790
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,960
So that's another reason they probably said, oh he's fine.

791
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,040
He's totally fine, he's convinced me.

792
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,680
And I'm sorry, as a psychiatrist you should be able to see two devils just saying it.

793
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,000
Well, I mean...

794
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,760
Body language though, body language never lies.

795
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,640
But the human brain, I mean, you know, it's like we want to give people the benefit of

796
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,320
the doubt, especially if we feel like we're helping that person.

797
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:33,320
Oh, sorry.

798
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:34,320
That was a...

799
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,040
You know, they probably felt like they were helping him and they're like, oh, this is

800
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,920
a success.

801
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:39,920
He's cured.

802
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,120
Little did they know.

803
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,760
After moving back in with Clarnel, Ed would enroll in community college with the hope

804
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,600
of becoming a police officer.

805
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:48,600
What?

806
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:49,600
Yeah.

807
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:50,760
Right, random.

808
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,400
He would quickly realize when looking into employment that he would be unable to join

809
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,640
the force, specifically wanting to be a straight state trooper due to his size, which had now

810
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:05,080
reached a tall six feet, nine inches, or 2.06 meters.

811
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,240
Because of his height, Ed would gain the nickname Big Ed in the community.

812
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:13,480
And although he was not able to join the force, he would maintain close relationships with

813
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,800
the Santa Cruz police officers in the area.

814
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,040
Sure, that doesn't come back.

815
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,600
So from what I could gather, it seems as though there was a height requirement to join the

816
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,760
force at this time because they didn't have the necessary equipment for people above,

817
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,200
like that above average height.

818
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,840
It pretty much came down to the resources available, the techniques the officers used,

819
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,440
and the ability to get in and out of places quickly and efficiently.

820
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,760
Now there's not a requirement or a height restriction.

821
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,640
Didn't Gacy also, wasn't he really in with the cops in the surrounding area?

822
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,040
Oh, yeah, because he was like a politician.

823
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:46,040
Yeah, that's right.

824
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,000
Or he was like in with the politicians.

825
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,840
At this time, Ed would describe himself as a self-proclaimed quote, friendly nuisance,

826
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,720
end quote, and would frequent a bar that was a popular hangout for local police.

827
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:00,520
This was called the jury room, which I think is kind of clever.

828
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,640
That's my nickname in high school is the friendly nuisance.

829
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,120
Oh, it's like the jury room?

830
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,520
Yeah, the jury room.

831
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,160
I had to pause because I was literally about to cough so much.

832
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,160
He worked.

833
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,840
I'm getting over being sick, but what's new?

834
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,160
I feel like the listeners always know that I'm sick.

835
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,080
I'm always sick.

836
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,520
It was reported that Ed had such a good relationship with local law enforcement that one officer

837
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:29,480
gave him a training school badge and handcuffs while another gifted him a gun.

838
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:30,480
Gifted him a gun?

839
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,160
Yes, he's like, here, this is my last job at the force.

840
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,160
Yeah, I don't need this anymore.

841
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,160
Like that's fucking cool.

842
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,160
Hey, you looking for a gun?

843
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:37,160
Yeah.

844
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,680
And even went as far as to gain a vehicle that resembled a police cruiser.

845
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:41,680
Oh, I know.

846
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,240
Because he thought he was in with the crowd.

847
00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:44,240
Oh, my God.

848
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:45,740
I know.

849
00:38:45,740 --> 00:38:50,280
While looking for a career, Ed would work a series of petty jobs, finally gaining employment

850
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:55,040
at the state of California division of highways in 1971.

851
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,320
Still living with his mother, Ed and Clornell would be in a constant state of despair, arguing

852
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:00,760
often.

853
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,200
These fights would be so frequent and loud that the neighbors in the area would often

854
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,200
recognize that they were fighting.

855
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,480
Ed would later describe this time of his life, quote, my mother and I started to write in

856
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,320
on horrendous battles, just horrible battles, boiling and vicious.

857
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,920
I've never been in such a vicious verbal battle with anyone.

858
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,360
It would go to fists with a man, but this was my mother and I couldn't stand the thought

859
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,560
of my mother and I doing these things.

860
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,280
She insisted on it and just over-stupid things.

861
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,920
I remember one roof-raiser was over whether I should have my teeth cleaned, end quote.

862
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:32,920
What?

863
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,080
Like, he said that she would just blow up on like the dumbest arguments.

864
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,520
This dude killed two people and you want to be argumentative with him?

865
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:42,520
Honestly.

866
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:49,120
Like, I understand that he's done a lot of work, but I feel like maybe she's the type

867
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,760
of person that hates seeing him successful.

868
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:54,760
Oh, and happy?

869
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,360
I feel like she's also the kind of bitch that would be like, fucking hit me.

870
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:58,360
What?

871
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:59,360
You're going to hit me?

872
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:00,360
What are you going to hit me?

873
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:01,360
I scare it.

874
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:02,360
I feel like that's her.

875
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:03,360
And honestly, that's me.

876
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:04,360
Sometimes I'm really drunk.

877
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:12,360
I haven't done that in a long time, but I have definitely said those words to a man.

878
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:13,360
A stranger nonetheless.

879
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:14,360
Stranger nonetheless.

880
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:15,360
Oh, God.

881
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:16,360
No, don't do that.

882
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:21,360
Listeners, please don't do that.

883
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:27,280
Because sometimes they'll snookie you and you'll fucking get the cow.

884
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,040
That is such a reference when we were talking about millennial stuff earlier.

885
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:36,080
It's just a meme.

886
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:37,840
So, yeah, no.

887
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,520
I don't think that she shouldn't.

888
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:45,120
I'm sorry, I'm not here to say that she should or shouldn't be treated a certain way because

889
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,120
of what she's doing.

890
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:47,120
Yeah, for sure.

891
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,000
But she, again, strikes me as the kind of person that's like, oh, it's the way you're

892
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,000
doing well for yourself.

893
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,000
Oh, you went to therapy.

894
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,000
Oh, you're on the next occasion.

895
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,000
Get pretty, Jen.

896
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,000
Oh, you're doing so much better.

897
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,000
That's the narcissist.

898
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,320
And she wants to break him all over again is probably what it is.

899
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,120
So she's probably going at him three times as hard as she used to.

900
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,000
Fucking sucks, dude, because that's his fucking downfall.

901
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,000
It's yeah.

902
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,440
And would eventually earn enough money to move out of his mom's house and would move

903
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:16,040
in with a friend in Alameda about an hour and a half drive from Aptos where his mother

904
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:17,040
lived.

905
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,040
Those are words.

906
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,640
I know, those cities.

907
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,800
Even though he had distanced himself physically from his mother, Edward frequently complained

908
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,920
about how he was unable to get away from her because Clarinell would often call and

909
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,840
check in with him and she would also pay him surprise visits.

910
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:32,840
Like don't do that.

911
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:33,840
Like just don't.

912
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:34,840
Don't show up to my fucking house.

913
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:35,840
Yeah.

914
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:36,840
Like when I don't want you here.

915
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,000
She knows what she's doing.

916
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,440
She knows exactly what she's doing.

917
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,760
And she gets gratification out of treating him like a piece of shit.

918
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,360
On top of this, Edward quickly find himself in financial stress having to return to his

919
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,760
mother's home on multiple occasions when he found himself short on rent.

920
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,200
Oh my God.

921
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,800
At this point, Edward was in his early 20s and he would meet a younger girl who was

922
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,600
a student at Turlock High School.

923
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,120
By all accounts, this girl was either 17 or 18 at this time and her name has been redacted

924
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,960
from sources.

925
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:12,080
The two would quickly get engaged in March of 1973.

926
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:13,560
No babies, no marriage.

927
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,200
The same year that Ed began working for the state, so again in 1971, he was out riding

928
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:23,400
his motorcycle when he was hit by a car, badly injuring his arm.

929
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:29,480
He would file a report against the driver gaining around $15,000 in settlement money.

930
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:30,480
Clarinell.

931
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,480
Oh no, I thought you were going to ask me how much it was today because I usually do.

932
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:38,000
I was waiting for Clarinell to be like, yeah, yeah, f**king cash and everything.

933
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,240
Well, it's the equivalent of around $112,000 today.

934
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:42,240
Oh, that's a lot.

935
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:47,480
Wait, you're going to get an interview today.

936
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,920
The fumbling around at the end of that last clip, I had to leave that in there if that's

937
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:52,920
so funny.

938
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,840
It's just a lot of, yeah, trying to find the pot.

939
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:56,840
Yeah.

940
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:03,840
If any listeners that we know personally are listening, which I'm sure you are, I feel

941
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,160
like you guys often maybe hear me and Koala when we're out and we do that voice.

942
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,160
I don't know what it is.

943
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,160
It's like a creepy old man voice or something.

944
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,160
It's so funny.

945
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,600
Okay, back to the story.

946
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:22,800
With the settlement money, Ed would purchase a 1969 Ford Galaxy.

947
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,160
This would be the vehicle that Ed would cruise around in and would begin to notice plenty

948
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,960
of young women that were hitchhiking.

949
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,360
In response to this, Ed would start to stock his car with various items such as plastic

950
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,480
bags, knives, blankets, and handcuffs.

951
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:37,480
So a kit.

952
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,240
Oh yeah, for sure.

953
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:43,240
According to Ed, quote, at first I picked up girls just to talk to them, just to try

954
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:48,340
to get acquainted with people my own age and try to strike up a friendship, end quote.

955
00:43:48,340 --> 00:43:52,480
He would claim that he picked up over 100 girls without incident during this time and

956
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:53,800
just gave them a ride.

957
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,880
Okay, so same thing with toy box killers.

958
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:02,520
They literally drove around and practiced picking up girls and legitimately giving them

959
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,520
rides places but trying out different tactics as to how to get them in the car.

960
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,600
Did you say toolbox or toy box?

961
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:10,600
Tool box.

962
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:11,600
Killers.

963
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:16,440
So I was actually thinking why couldn't he just be friends with his girlfriend's friends

964
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,440
or something?

965
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:18,440
Like why does he...

966
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,440
He's not doing this to make friends and he claims that he was.

967
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,640
No, he's doing it because he's trying, but that's the thing is that people like him and

968
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:31,360
people like the toolbox killers, their end goal is to kill and do it successfully.

969
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:32,760
Of course, yeah.

970
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:33,920
And do the trial and error.

971
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,440
They have the patience which is creepy.

972
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,440
So creepy.

973
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:38,440
It's not impulsive.

974
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,440
This isn't like, like I just happen to grab someone and then it's just have to have it.

975
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,440
No, it's like, I'm gonna do the process because if I'm gonna do, it's like Dexter.

976
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:47,440
And I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it right.

977
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:48,960
I'm gonna do it right the first time.

978
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,320
Okay, well Dexter is fine.

979
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:52,320
He can do it every once.

980
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:53,320
Okay.

981
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:54,320
I go see Hall.

982
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:55,320
Okay.

983
00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:02,360
Nevertheless, this is when Ed would begin having specific urges that he could not explain.

984
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,840
When picking up these women, he would feel that he wanted to do more than just give them

985
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,840
a ride and perhaps make a friend.

986
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:14,720
Ed would refer to these feelings as his quote, little zapples, end quote, and would begin

987
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:16,960
unfortunately acting on these urges.

988
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:17,960
Little zapples.

989
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,520
It reminds me of Sparky Big Time.

990
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:20,960
Yeah, Sparky Big Time.

991
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,960
That's just for the SBT.

992
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:23,960
Wait, SBT.

993
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:25,960
SBT and I was like, what's SBT?

994
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,960
I was like, it's like Sparky Big Time.

995
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:29,960
So gross.

996
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:30,960
So gross.

997
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:31,960
Oh God, okay.

998
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:40,080
Between May of 1972 and April of 1973, Ed would kill eight people, six of which were

999
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:45,040
female hitchhikers, giving him the infamous nickname of the coed killer.

1000
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,040
No pun intended.

1001
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:47,040
Ed.

1002
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:48,040
Oh, the coed.

1003
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:53,480
Oh, oh, I see what you did there.

1004
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:58,000
I feel like I want to say that escalated quickly, but no.

1005
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,880
This is literally a culmination of a bunch of shit that we've heard so far.

1006
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:06,560
Like we just said, he's been practicing the best way to gain trust and to hold the conversation

1007
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,240
long enough for him to maybe go somewhere else.

1008
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:10,760
So eight women.

1009
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:11,760
Yes.

1010
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:16,200
Ed would later state that during this time of his killings, he and his mother's arguments

1011
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,920
would continuously get worse, and the context was mostly about his mother's refusal to

1012
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,200
introduce Ed to the female students that attended the college where his mother worked.

1013
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:26,840
Oh, so she worked at the college?

1014
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,200
Yeah, she was an administrative assistant, I said that earlier.

1015
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:30,200
I'm sorry.

1016
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:31,200
That's okay.

1017
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,200
So, but he was like, find me a girlfriend.

1018
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,680
Yeah, and she's like, I'm not introducing you to any of these women.

1019
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:36,680
Yeah.

1020
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:37,680
Because you're a sleaze model.

1021
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,280
Well, not only that, but she's probably like, you can't move on because if you move on to

1022
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,880
your life, I don't have a verbal punching bag.

1023
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:44,880
Exactly.

1024
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,960
I don't have a physical punching bag.

1025
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,880
He would later recall about these arguments, quote, she would say, you're just like your

1026
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:51,880
father.

1027
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,200
You don't deserve to get to know them and, quote, that's so gross.

1028
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:56,360
I hate when people do that.

1029
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:57,360
Gross.

1030
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,040
I know I've said this before on the podcast, I think at least once, but there was a little

1031
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:06,520
girl that I used to, you know, we were the same age and her mother used to say, just

1032
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,840
wait until your father gets home.

1033
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:14,160
And I'm like, how much threatening your child, you're threatening your child's about their

1034
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:15,160
own parent.

1035
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,240
Like it's just, oh my gosh, this is the worst.

1036
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:20,320
So when you said that, it literally just made me go, she's going to grow up and be like,

1037
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,440
or she's going to talk to her friends and be like, oh my gosh, her father's an asshole

1038
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:24,440
too.

1039
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,600
It was literally was like, what happens when your dad gets home?

1040
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,880
Because I didn't know because our dad's always, our dad is a saint.

1041
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,720
Very, very privileged to have the father that we do that.

1042
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:38,240
And yeah, it just, so yeah, when I was like, you're just like your father.

1043
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:39,240
I hate that.

1044
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:40,240
What does that mean?

1045
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:41,240
No, seriously.

1046
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:42,680
Oh my God.

1047
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:49,080
On May 7th, 1972, Ed was driving his Ford Galaxy around in search of female hitchhikers, his

1048
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,040
usual MO.

1049
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:56,320
He came across two 18 year old co-eds from Fresno State University, Mary Ann Pesky and

1050
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,920
Anita Mary Luchesa.

1051
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:04,200
Ed pulled up to the girls who expressed interest in getting a ride to Stanford University.

1052
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,840
Ed would drive the girls for nearly an hour, seemingly gaining their trust or contemplating

1053
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,120
his next move.

1054
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,920
During this time, he had taken a wrong turn that he knew would lead them to a secluded

1055
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,600
wooded area, which he was familiar with due to his work with the highway department.

1056
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:25,320
But he was actually able to make this quote unquote wrong turn without the girls knowledge

1057
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,360
that they weren't headed in the right direction.

1058
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:28,360
Oh, okay.

1059
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,920
So I guess he convinced them that they were going to where he was taking them, where they

1060
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:32,920
wanted to go.

1061
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,240
Yeah, that's kind of what I was going to say.

1062
00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:36,040
It's like, oh, you made a left, you made a wrong turn.

1063
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,440
And he'll be like, oh, I did.

1064
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,960
Like, yeah, you can just turn around right there or right there.

1065
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:41,960
Yeah, or right there.

1066
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,720
No, I think he was like, I know this area.

1067
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:46,920
This is like a shortcut maybe like to Stanford.

1068
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,440
And I'm like, oh, you know what?

1069
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,160
Yeah, I did make a left here, but you know what?

1070
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:51,800
I'll just make a left at the next street.

1071
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:52,800
Yeah.

1072
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:53,800
Oh, wait, this is a dead end.

1073
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,760
Uh, let me make a right right here.

1074
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,280
But then also it's like, it's not like today where you have Uber and then you have your

1075
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,000
own map in the backseat, you know, that's true.

1076
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:08,120
After arriving in this area, Ed would pull over and handcuff Mary Ann and subsequently

1077
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,800
lock Anita in the trunk.

1078
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,640
Ed would later state that he intended to sexually assault the two girls, but he quote, panicked.

1079
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:16,640
And quote.

1080
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:22,560
Instead, Ed would then stab Mary Ann and unfortunately strangle her to death.

1081
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:27,320
Ed would then turn his attention to Anita, killing her in a similar manner.

1082
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,360
Ed would later state about these murders that when handcuffing Mary Ann, he accidentally,

1083
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:36,200
quote, brushed the back of his hand against one of her breasts and it embarrassed him.

1084
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:41,520
Quote, stating that he said to her, quote, whoops, I'm sorry, or something like that.

1085
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:42,920
And quote.

1086
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,960
He would later add that he chose to pick up the two girls because they seemed, quote,

1087
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:52,880
of a better class of people than the scroungy, messy, dirty, smelly hippie types that I wasn't

1088
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,320
at all interested in.

1089
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:55,320
And quote.

1090
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:56,320
What?

1091
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:57,520
Like, fuck you.

1092
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:58,520
Like what the hell?

1093
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,880
I think that it's, it's so strange.

1094
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,400
It's so like convoluted.

1095
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:08,440
It's like he intended to sexually assault them, but then apologizes for brushing up against

1096
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:09,440
her.

1097
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:10,440
Exactly.

1098
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,200
Or like, he says that they're a better class of people, but his intention is to kill them.

1099
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,200
No.

1100
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:17,200
It's just so strange.

1101
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,200
And that's what I'm saying.

1102
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,680
And like, it's actually different than what we've covered before.

1103
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:26,920
A lot of people do try to abduct people that have maybe transient or not as wealthy looking

1104
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,600
or not as put together looking because they, because they figure no one's looking for them,

1105
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:31,600
right?

1106
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:35,960
And he's so arrogant that he's like, oh, I want the good looking girls that are probably

1107
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:37,480
more like cleaner.

1108
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:38,480
Yeah.

1109
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:39,960
And I'm still going to get away with it.

1110
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:40,960
Yeah.

1111
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:41,960
That's gross.

1112
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:42,960
That's, yeah.

1113
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:43,960
That's so gross.

1114
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,680
Do you think that he did that with the intention of like wanting it to be news?

1115
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,680
I actually don't know.

1116
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:51,680
That's a good point.

1117
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:52,680
Maybe not at this point.

1118
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:53,680
Maybe like later on.

1119
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:54,680
Yeah.

1120
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,960
After both girls were deceased, Ed would put their bodies in the trunk of his car and

1121
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:00,880
head back towards his apartment.

1122
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,920
On the way home, Ed would be pulled over by a police officer for having a tail light

1123
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:05,920
out.

1124
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:10,440
But somehow, maybe because of his good relationships with police in the area, he was free to go

1125
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,400
after some basic procedures.

1126
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,320
And they were with, but they were both in the trunk deceased at this point.

1127
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,040
Now remember, Ed is living with a roommate at this point as well.

1128
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,400
Once he arrived home, he found that his roommate was actually not home.

1129
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,360
So he took the bodies into the apartment one by one.

1130
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:27,360
Could you imagine?

1131
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:28,360
No, I can't.

1132
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:29,840
I literally can't.

1133
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:35,720
Ed would then take photos of each corpse before committing necrophilia and dismembering them.

1134
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:40,160
Ed would then place the body parts into plastic bags and later dispose of them near Loma Prieta

1135
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:41,920
Mountain.

1136
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:46,200
Ed was noted as engaging in oral necrophilia with each of the girls' decapitated heads

1137
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,280
before disposing of them in a ravine close by.

1138
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:50,280
That is horrific.

1139
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:51,680
Oh, it's disgusting.

1140
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,960
And beware, I know we already put this in the content warning, but if you look this

1141
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,160
up, it's like much more graphic than that.

1142
00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:59,160
Yeah.

1143
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,280
Ed and Anita's families would report the two girls missing shortly after their disappearances,

1144
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,760
but nothing would come for multiple months.

1145
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,680
On August 15th of the same year, Mary Ann's decomposed skull was found in Loma Prieta

1146
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,280
Mountain.

1147
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,560
After this was discovered, a search was implemented to also look for the remainders of Mary Ann's

1148
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,080
remains and hopefully to find some of Anita's.

1149
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,920
Unfortunately, nothing else would be found in connection to these girls.

1150
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,840
Ed was noted as commenting on his mentality about his first murders, quote, if I killed

1151
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,080
them, you know, they couldn't reject me as a man.

1152
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:37,040
It was more or less making a doll out of a human being and carrying out my fantasies

1153
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,440
with a doll, a living human doll, end quote.

1154
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:42,920
So you think he had like a doll fetish?

1155
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:49,600
I think that he's referring back to his childhood when he, the only real true connection he

1156
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:53,600
felt he had was with the dolls because they couldn't talk back to him.

1157
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,680
And he's like, I'm just going to do this with people, you know?

1158
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,080
Almost like a fear kind of thing.

1159
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,600
Would it be like a blow up doll guy?

1160
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:03,600
I don't think so.

1161
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,160
You know how they make those like realistic ones?

1162
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:07,840
I just think like, yeah, I know what you're talking about.

1163
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:12,040
I just think that as soon as he like got old enough, essentially, like he was like, oh,

1164
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,280
I don't have to play with dolls anymore.

1165
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:14,960
Like I can just like take advantage of women.

1166
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,280
Yeah, you know, that was kind of like a dommer thing too.

1167
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,800
He wanted like, what do you say, sex zombies?

1168
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,440
Yeah, like that's why he sedated all of his victims.

1169
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:27,640
So now we're going to refer back to criminal psychologist Adrienne Arno for her perspective

1170
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:33,120
on Ed's interview about what escalated him to kill again after being, you know, rehabilitated

1171
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:34,120
apparently.

1172
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,240
This is all a quote with quotes in twint.

1173
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:42,720
Quote, whether he wants to say it out loud or not, whether he even recognizes it or not,

1174
00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:46,360
you don't just casually hide a loaded gun in your car unless you know you're going to

1175
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,280
have a need to use it.

1176
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:52,120
This is something I see a lot of in anti-social personalities that have been in treatment for

1177
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:53,120
a while.

1178
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,680
They're okay with admitting to some of their culpability, but only take partial responsibility

1179
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,520
for their intentions.

1180
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,760
It gives the illusion of taking responsibility for their crimes, but it's a parlor trick

1181
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:08,440
of semantics, particularly intelligent inmates in a long-term treatment, learned to use as

1182
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,320
a defense mechanism.

1183
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:15,080
He admits to building up his first, to his first kill with a series of trial runs, quote,

1184
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:16,600
a daring kind of a thing.

1185
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:17,680
He called it.

1186
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:22,000
But a dare is something someone else put you up to or risk presented you must be brave

1187
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:23,200
enough to take.

1188
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:24,680
It's external.

1189
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:29,120
But his quote, fantastic passion, is described as an internal push.

1190
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:33,600
What he's really doing is testing his boundaries, seeing how much he can get away with and how

1191
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:34,600
easily.

1192
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,440
Furthermore, he knows he shot his grandparents at the age of 15.

1193
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:43,100
Now, if you're someone who feels consumed by rage and you've committed two murders

1194
00:54:43,100 --> 00:54:47,400
before with a gun and been through psychiatric treatment, why in the world would you seek

1195
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,520
out a gun in the first place?

1196
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,400
What he's describing is a process of planning.

1197
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:56,560
He reports knowing that if he took the gun out while in the car, he'd use it.

1198
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,480
But in reality, the very act of putting the gun in the car in the first place was the

1199
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,320
point of no return.

1200
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,880
Kemper has always presented as incredibly self-aware by comparison to most anti-social

1201
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,320
personalities.

1202
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,960
No one can argue he possesses a complex intelligence.

1203
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,680
Given that we know how self-aware he is, we know there was a part of Kemper that knew,

1204
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:21,280
even if it was subconsciously, that he was going to use that gun for a deviant purpose,

1205
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,360
and it was just a matter of when.

1206
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:27,240
He wanted to be ready when the right circumstances presented itself.

1207
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:31,760
Putting that gun in his car was as good as putting Marianne Pesky and Anita Luchesa in

1208
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:32,760
their graves."

1209
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:33,760
And quote.

1210
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:34,760
Woo!

1211
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:35,760
I know, right?

1212
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:36,760
Woo!

1213
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:46,280
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1215
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1218
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1219
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,800
Especially with the kit too, like he had to have known that he was going to use any of

1220
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,360
those instruments at any given time.

1221
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:19,360
Yeah, so I will say, and I'm sure the listeners have recognized, I brought up in this quote

1222
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:23,160
the idea of a gun being in the car, and I didn't say that earlier when I was telling

1223
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,440
you about him putting his kit together.

1224
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,960
We will see that he does put a gun in his car later, but she was referring to the first

1225
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:34,200
two murders in that quote, so I felt it was right to put it here.

1226
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:38,400
So again, I'm sure we can all agree that she's right on the money.

1227
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,680
Going further into the interview, Ed continues to explain that he felt as though the first

1228
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:47,600
two murders of the girls was a horrible experience, and he felt that his hands were tied, so

1229
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,040
to speak at certain points.

1230
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,480
He explains that when he approaches Anita after killing Marianne, he felt the need to

1231
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,440
not tell her that she was about to be deceased as well.

1232
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:03,760
Adrian comments on this quote, when he said I just went through a horrible experience

1233
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:08,360
referring to how he had to stab Marianne while Anita was tied up in the trunk and was in

1234
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:09,760
shock because of that.

1235
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:11,600
That's classic narcissism.

1236
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:16,320
He made an active, planned choice to stab a teenage girl to death and was so traumatized

1237
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:17,320
by it.

1238
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:18,240
Really?

1239
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:22,920
This comment strikes me as another very well concealed attempt to manipulate the listener,

1240
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,640
a low-key call for sympathy.

1241
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:30,520
Then he justifies his murder of Lou Chesa by telling himself I have to do this, aka I

1242
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:32,040
don't have a choice.

1243
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,720
She's gonna tell on me, justifying why he doesn't have a choice.

1244
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:37,440
But he did have a choice.

1245
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:41,360
A lot of them, between even the first time he picked up the roommates in his car and

1246
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:45,960
the murders, so this whole I don't have a choice is another way to justify knowing it's

1247
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:47,600
wrong and doing it anyway.

1248
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:48,600
End quote.

1249
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,320
Yeah, it's like, you know, you're essentially saying like, I have to clean up after myself.

1250
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:53,320
Yeah.

1251
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,440
Like, I can't just like, I can't just leave her alive.

1252
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:56,440
Yeah.

1253
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:57,960
I have to clean up the mess.

1254
00:57:57,960 --> 00:57:59,200
No, it's disgusting.

1255
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:00,400
And she's so right.

1256
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,120
She's like, he's making it seem like he didn't have a choice.

1257
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:06,360
In reality, the first choice he made was picking them up in the first place.

1258
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,240
That was the choice.

1259
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,640
You put yourself into position to where you felt like you didn't have a choice because

1260
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:16,400
you made the decision to go prowling for women.

1261
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,920
According to the next part of the interview, it seems as though Ed comments on having to

1262
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,920
lie to Anita about the fact that there's blood on his hands.

1263
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:24,960
Like he actually actively had blood on his hands.

1264
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:28,320
So when he goes to get her from the trunk, he's like, what am I gonna have to tell her

1265
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:29,800
about this?

1266
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:31,560
Adrian quote.

1267
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,040
Why does Kemper lie to Luchesa about what he did to her roommate?

1268
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:36,040
Simple.

1269
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,640
Luchesa easier to control than Peske was.

1270
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:43,360
Remember, he just talked about how he went through a horrible experience killing Peske.

1271
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,360
He didn't want more of the same antics from her roommate.

1272
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,880
By telling the terrified Luchesa that there's blood on his hands because her roommate got

1273
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:54,880
smart with me, he's making sure fear-addled Luchesa goes with him less of a struggle and

1274
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,200
makes it easier for him to kill her.

1275
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,400
Victims in a life or death situation have only two choices.

1276
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,440
Try to fight or try to escape.

1277
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,240
By making it clear to Luchesa that anyone who gets smart with him is going to receive

1278
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:11,680
violence, he's sent a clear message to her that she can expect violence if she doesn't

1279
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:12,680
cooperate.

1280
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:17,600
Also, the surprise contempt in his voice when he says she's referring to Anita about to

1281
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,960
die, why does she need to know that, is apparent.

1282
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:23,280
His facial affect remains neutral.

1283
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,640
His choice of words reveals his self-centered state of mind.

1284
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:31,040
What he's actually saying is, why does she even think what she wants to know matters?

1285
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:32,400
I'm going to kill her.

1286
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,680
This is about me and what I want.

1287
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,840
It inconvenience him to have to answer Luchesa's question.

1288
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:39,560
She interrupted his fantasy.

1289
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:44,560
Again, it's so good.

1290
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:48,840
And it's like everything that I think when I look at an interview or whatever, I'm not

1291
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,320
as educated as her clearly.

1292
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,120
She's a criminal psychologist, licensed and all that stuff.

1293
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,960
But it puts everything that I want to say or want to think into words and it reminds

1294
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,080
me of the behavior panel.

1295
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:00,320
And it's super interesting.

1296
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,880
Will you speak on that just for a second, just for the listeners?

1297
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:03,880
Sure, yeah.

1298
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:06,200
Behavior panel is a group of four guys.

1299
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:11,200
They're FBI profilers, they're body language analysts, linguistics analysts.

1300
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:16,120
And like I said, they work for the FBI and the military doing interrogation tactics.

1301
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:21,560
But they look at footage, most notably one of my favorite ones to watch over and over

1302
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:23,080
and over again is the Amber Heard one.

1303
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,240
I know it like the back of my hand.

1304
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:31,560
I've only watched a few but I have seen the Patty Ramsey, John Bunny Ramsey's mom interview

1305
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:32,840
and that one was really interesting.

1306
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:34,320
The Burke Ramsey one is really interesting.

1307
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:35,320
I know I watched that one.

1308
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:36,320
Oh my gosh.

1309
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:42,720
And they, so again, they show clips and then they dissect the clips.

1310
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:48,120
Again, linguistically, like their body language and everything like that.

1311
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:54,920
What speculate at certain times what their background might be based off of what they're

1312
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:59,600
experiencing by what they're watching and the Amber Heard one is really interesting to

1313
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:00,600
me.

1314
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:05,240
It is not the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial that we all watched as a nation just a few

1315
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:06,400
years ago.

1316
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:07,880
It's the one a few years before that.

1317
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:15,640
I think it was 2015 or 16 where it was like in the UK, it was I think Sunset magazine

1318
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:16,960
or something.

1319
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,040
It was another defamation case.

1320
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,120
This one was lesser known.

1321
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:26,760
And her, she's sitting in this room, you know, it's very just like a blank wall behind her

1322
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,680
and they're filming her and it's a deposition.

1323
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:36,920
And her lawyers start arguing with these other lawyers and she just looks to the left, looks

1324
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:37,920
to the right.

1325
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:40,720
She's like chewing gum or something.

1326
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:42,640
And she looks bored.

1327
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:44,680
And I don't remember who it was either.

1328
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,680
I want to say it was Chase or maybe even Mark.

1329
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:49,680
I don't remember.

1330
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,240
Chase says, look at how calm she is.

1331
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:58,280
She is so used to discourse that she couldn't like they might as well be talking about what

1332
01:01:58,280 --> 01:01:59,280
they're having for dinner.

1333
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:00,280
Yeah.

1334
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:01,280
And it was just it was really intense.

1335
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:02,880
Anyways, they're really awesome guys.

1336
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,160
The behavior panel so super interesting.

1337
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:06,160
Yeah, absolutely.

1338
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,600
And Adrian, I mean, hits the nail on the head like with every quote and we'll hear more

1339
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:11,200
from her a little bit again.

1340
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:15,080
We're going to tag her in this episode because I feel like she's this episode is hurt.

1341
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:16,920
Like she gives us so much information.

1342
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:17,920
Yeah.

1343
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:21,840
And it really helps us kind of get to the root of what again, what we try to do with

1344
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:25,840
this podcast, which is dive into the psychology of the person.

1345
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,040
So it's really interesting that we got a lot of information from her on this.

1346
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:30,040
It is.

1347
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,400
And I think that like you said, it's it's everything that you think it's it's why do

1348
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,840
I feel uneasy about this person?

1349
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,320
And then someone comes along and puts it into words.

1350
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:40,920
So you're like, I'm educated on this.

1351
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:47,240
That makes total sense as to why that person makes me feel heebie-jeebie.

1352
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,080
The full buddy heebie.

1353
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:56,080
On the evening of September 14th, 1972, four months and one week after the killings of Maryanne

1354
01:02:56,080 --> 01:03:01,840
and Anita, Ed picked up a 15 year old dance student by the name of Aiko Kuu.

1355
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,400
Aiko had been at dance class and was planning on taking the bus back home.

1356
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,720
When she accidentally missed the bus, Aiko decided her next option was to try and hitchhike

1357
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:12,440
home.

1358
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:17,920
Once in the car, Aiko pointed Ed to the direction of her home to which he obliged.

1359
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:22,360
Ed began driving, but instead of taking her home, he began his journey to another remote

1360
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:23,360
area.

1361
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:24,360
Oh, wrong turn.

1362
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:25,960
No, yeah.

1363
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,160
Once there, Ed would pull a gun on Aiko.

1364
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:34,560
Shortly after this, Ed would exit the vehicle, accidentally leaving his keys in the process

1365
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,480
and somehow locked himself out of the vehicle.

1366
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:39,480
She's locked in though?

1367
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:40,480
Yes.

1368
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,480
Once the gun was still in the car with her, Aiko would ultimately open the vehicle for

1369
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:50,160
Ed, most likely trying to follow his orders to avoid any negative altercation.

1370
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:55,480
Cause I'm sure he said that whole thing of, well don't get smart with me.

1371
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:59,560
Unfortunately, Ed had another sinister plan and he would begin to strangle Aiko to the

1372
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,960
point of unconsciousness.

1373
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:07,560
After she was passed out, Ed would sexually assault Aiko and ultimately kill her.

1374
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:11,760
During her death, Ed would put Aiko's body into the trunk of his car, but instead of

1375
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:16,960
immediately returning to his apartment, he decided to stop at a local bar for a drink.

1376
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:18,120
With her body in the car?

1377
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:20,120
In the trunk.

1378
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:24,320
Ed would later admit that once he exited the bar, he would open the trunk in the parking

1379
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:29,080
lot, quote, admiring his catch like a fisherman, end quote.

1380
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:31,040
That is fucking disgusting.

1381
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,400
That is so sinister, like I can't even.

1382
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:37,160
That's what I'm saying, like even with the girls where he was like, oh they refined,

1383
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:40,600
they're special, they're like, he thinks he's playing the most dangerous game or something.

1384
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:41,600
He really is.

1385
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:46,640
And he, and he again has this grandiose sense of self where he thinks that he's just getting

1386
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:48,160
away with everything.

1387
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:50,240
It's disgusting.

1388
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:54,640
Once back at his apartment, Ed would sexually defile the corpse before dismembering it and

1389
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:59,320
disposing of it similarly to his previous two victims.

1390
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:03,040
Following her disappearance, Aiko's mother would file a report with the police, even

1391
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:07,160
putting up hundreds of flyers in hopes of locating her daughter, but was never given

1392
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:14,720
a response on the progress of the missing persons report or any details regarding a search.

1393
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:19,040
Just for context, Ed is still consistently hanging out in the jury room bar at this time,

1394
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:23,480
chatting and being homies at the local police.

1395
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:27,520
Criminal psychologist Adrian Arno comments on this part of Ed's later interview when

1396
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:33,000
he was describing himself as a normal, trusting person, quote, Kemper's interaction with

1397
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,840
the police was much like his interactions with mental health authorities.

1398
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:40,560
It helps him sustain the high he experienced during the crimes.

1399
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:43,480
It's a power trip to be so close to the investigation.

1400
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,560
It's exciting to know something he's done is getting so much attention, not to mention

1401
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:52,160
how much useful information sociopaths like Kemper can gather to help them continue to

1402
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,160
elude capture, end quote.

1403
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:55,160
So true.

1404
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:56,160
So you're right.

1405
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:59,200
If he knows where their heads are at, then he's like, oh, I'll be able to...

1406
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:00,200
Yeah.

1407
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:03,200
I was like, so what about this killer on the loose?

1408
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:05,200
What do they call him?

1409
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:06,200
The coed killer?

1410
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:07,200
Oh, it's coed?

1411
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:08,200
Yeah.

1412
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:09,200
It's the coed men killer?

1413
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:10,200
Oh, I'm sorry.

1414
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:11,200
It's the coed.

1415
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:12,200
What a coincidence.

1416
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:13,200
What a coincidence.

1417
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:19,600
Ed was notoriously bad with money, and around this time, he would lose the ability to continue

1418
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,760
to pay rent, resulting in him moving back with his mother.

1419
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:23,760
Oh, great.

1420
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:24,760
Great.

1421
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:25,760
Yeah.

1422
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:26,760
Here we go again.

1423
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:32,760
In 1973, Ed was driving around the Cabrillo College campus when he came across 18-year-old

1424
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,720
Cynthia Ann Cindy Shaw.

1425
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:40,240
He would drive the girl to a secluded wooded area and fatally shoot her with a 22-color

1426
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:42,240
pistol.

1427
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:46,360
Once Cindy was deceased, Ed would bring her body back to his mother's home while she

1428
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:47,360
was out of the house.

1429
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:48,360
Oh, my God.

1430
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:51,520
So it's first with the roommate, and now same thing with his mother's home.

1431
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:52,520
The balls, though.

1432
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:54,000
Oh, yeah.

1433
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:58,280
Ed would bring the body into his room and hide it in his closet overnight.

1434
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,080
Just went to sleep casually.

1435
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:01,080
Just casually.

1436
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:02,080
Yeah.

1437
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:03,080
It's just cash.

1438
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:06,520
Like she's a load of laundry and hasn't folded yet.

1439
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:10,840
When Clarnel left for work the following morning, Ed would take the corpse out of his closet

1440
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,880
and engage in necrophilia with it.

1441
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:18,200
He then removed the bullet from the body before dismembering it in his mother's bathtub.

1442
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:19,200
What?

1443
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:21,040
So ballsy.

1444
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:25,560
Ed would keep the remains together, but would single out the decapitated head, keeping it

1445
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:27,720
in his room.

1446
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:31,920
Over the next several days, Ed would engage in necrophilic acts with this part of the

1447
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:34,000
corpse.

1448
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:38,480
After a few days, Ed would bury the head in his mother's garden, intentionally facing

1449
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:43,600
it upwards as if it was looking into Clarnel's bedroom.

1450
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:47,320
Ed would later state that the reason behind this was because his mother, quote, always

1451
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:55,040
wanted people to look up to her and quote, what the fuck is that fucked up bro.

1452
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:57,600
Like this whole thing is fucked up, but that's fucked up.

1453
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,000
Like he really hates his mom.

1454
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:01,960
Like he really does.

1455
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:10,120
Like and he's just screaming for her to notice this psychiatrist and Ed alike would later

1456
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:15,120
suggest in interviews that the women Ed killed were taking place of his true wanted target,

1457
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:16,120
his mother.

1458
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:17,120
Yeah.

1459
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:21,360
And I would speak on this specifically, quote, my victims represented not what my mother

1460
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:26,680
was, but what she liked, what she coveted, what was important to her, and I was destroying

1461
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:28,040
it, end quote.

1462
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:36,040
Like vanity or, you know, being wanted or desired or pay attention to or whatever.

1463
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:43,760
And that also kind of goes back to the whole wanting to capture and abduct and murder women

1464
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:47,100
that looked like they were maybe more well off than other women.

1465
01:08:47,100 --> 01:08:49,360
Because he wanted something that resembled his mother.

1466
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:50,360
Right.

1467
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,480
And she was fucking prideful probably.

1468
01:08:53,480 --> 01:08:57,160
Ed would then dispose of the rest of Cindy's remains by throwing them over a cliff in a

1469
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:59,560
desolate area.

1470
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,640
Over the following few weeks, Cindy's remains would be discovered slowly after washing up

1471
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:07,120
shore, I guess there was water nearby.

1472
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:10,480
Investigators were covering everything but her head.

1473
01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:14,760
Investigators would state that finding Cindy's remains, quote, pieced together like a macabre

1474
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,040
jigsaw puzzle, end quote.

1475
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:21,000
A pathologist would later determine that Cindy had been dismembered with a powerslaw.

1476
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:22,880
That sounded good.

1477
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:23,880
Thank you.

1478
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:26,440
Stop, I tried so hard to pronounce that.

1479
01:09:26,440 --> 01:09:30,840
Well, I've said macabre because it's French.

1480
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:32,840
But I guess there's different pronunciations.

1481
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:33,840
But that sounded really nice.

1482
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:34,840
Thank you.

1483
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:35,840
Our French listeners can just let us know.

1484
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:39,320
I mean, I know how it's pronounced in every, like, inflection.

1485
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:41,200
Inflection, inflection, okay.

1486
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,200
I don't know how to say words.

1487
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:45,320
I don't know how to say it.

1488
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:51,120
On February 5th, 1973, after a heated argument with his mother, Ed left his home with the

1489
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,960
intent of finding a new victim.

1490
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:58,000
At this time, the media had let out news that there was a suspected active serial killer

1491
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:04,040
in the area praying on college women and urged everyone to not accept rides from strangers,

1492
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:09,760
and also insisted only accept rides from cars with a university sticker on them.

1493
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:10,760
So what does he do?

1494
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:11,760
He gets a university sticker?

1495
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:16,440
Ed, however, was able to obtain a university sticker due to the fact that his mother worked

1496
01:10:16,440 --> 01:10:17,720
on a university campus.

1497
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:21,040
Oh my god, okay, alright.

1498
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:26,080
While on campus, Ed came across 23-year-old Rosalind Heather Thorpe and 20-year-old Alice

1499
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:29,240
Helen or Allison Liu.

1500
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:33,640
According to Ed, when he approached the two women, Rosalind entered his vehicle first,

1501
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:37,880
seemingly willingly, and assured her friend to get in expressing her belief that it was

1502
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:39,360
safe because it had the sticker.

1503
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:40,360
Oh my god, I cannot.

1504
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:41,920
Oh my gosh, that's awful.

1505
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:43,240
I can't imagine what that feels like.

1506
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:46,800
And it sucks because he thought of that.

1507
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:51,920
Ed would quickly shoot both women in the vehicle and would drive off the campus, past security

1508
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:57,600
at the gates, while both women were horribly wounded but still alive.

1509
01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:58,600
Like how?

1510
01:10:58,600 --> 01:10:59,600
This guy's so brazen.

1511
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:01,240
So ballsy.

1512
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:05,560
Ed once again brought his victims back to his mother's house, the two passing away by

1513
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:08,240
the time that they had arrived.

1514
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:13,280
This time, he would dismember the bodies in his vehicle, decapitating both corpses.

1515
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:14,280
That is so much though.

1516
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:17,080
I think his mom was probably home and that's why he did that.

1517
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:18,400
That's like a lot though.

1518
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:22,360
Like that would be so, I mean, not to get graphic, but that would be really messy.

1519
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:24,200
Yeah, I know it would.

1520
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:29,360
Ed would later comment on this quote, the head-trip fantasies were a bit like a trophy.

1521
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:34,800
You know, the head is where everything is at, the brain, eyes, mouth, that's the person.

1522
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:38,880
I remember being told as a kid, you cut off the head and the body dies.

1523
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:41,160
The body is nothing after the head is cut off.

1524
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:43,320
Well, that's not quite true.

1525
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,840
There's a lot left in the girl's body without the head.

1526
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:46,840
End quote.

1527
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:47,840
Oh my god.

1528
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:49,680
So fucking gross.

1529
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:52,800
Just I keep thinking about the Barbies like a century young age, you know?

1530
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:54,600
I think so.

1531
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:58,560
Ed would dispose of the bodies separately and in March of the same year, some of the remains

1532
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:02,160
would be located but nothing further.

1533
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:06,800
On the same timeframe of Ed's murders, two other serial killers were roaming the area,

1534
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:10,240
John Lindley Fraser and Herbert Mullins.

1535
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:14,680
The fact that there were multiple serial killers in the same area during this time led the media

1536
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:19,360
to dub Santa Cruz the infamous nickname, quote, murder capital of the world.

1537
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:22,600
Yeah, I mean classic California writing for during that time.

1538
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,960
Well during any of the 70s or 80s.

1539
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:31,080
Ed himself would come to be known as the co-ed killer and the co-ed butcher.

1540
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:35,440
In the next part of the interview analyzed by Adrian Orno, Ed speaks about the fact that

1541
01:12:35,440 --> 01:12:40,320
he picked up multiple women who would comment on the murders during their interaction.

1542
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:44,080
Ed would state that the women who would mention the killings in the area would get themselves

1543
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:47,720
a quote free ride end quote.

1544
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,880
So if he picked anybody up and they mentioned like, oh, thanks for picking me up.

1545
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:55,040
I felt so unsafe because of no, not that, but he would say like, even if they brought

1546
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:56,520
it up, he'd be like, it's not worth it.

1547
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:57,520
Yeah.

1548
01:12:57,520 --> 01:12:59,720
Like it's not, it's not smart to write on my end.

1549
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:04,320
Because then they would have expressed, I don't know, I don't know, concern.

1550
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:07,920
I think that he was more so like, thanks for thinking of me.

1551
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:09,840
Like you get a pass or whatever.

1552
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:13,720
But I'm sure like, and like he probably justified it and saying like, well, if they knew about

1553
01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:16,000
me, they're probably doing their due diligence.

1554
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:17,000
Yeah.

1555
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:18,520
They're probably like telling people where they're going.

1556
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:19,520
Yeah.

1557
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:20,800
Yeah, exactly.

1558
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:23,880
Or maybe witnesses or have a friend looking out a window.

1559
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:24,880
Yeah.

1560
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:25,880
What kind of car they're getting into.

1561
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:32,280
Yeah, Adrian comments on this quote, this seems to me more like he appreciated the fame

1562
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:34,000
his killings brought him.

1563
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:37,720
There's a twisted kind of pride in his voice when he speaks about his crimes.

1564
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:43,200
It's low key, but it's there, which isn't entirely unheard of in an anti social personality.

1565
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:47,200
Killing is the one thing that got Kemper what he so desperately wanted from the world to

1566
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:51,040
be seen, to be recognized, to feel powerful.

1567
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:53,320
He felt powerless most of his life.

1568
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:57,600
I have little doubt that picking and choosing his victims gave him a rush, a chance to play

1569
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:58,680
God.

1570
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:00,520
There was a power play involved.

1571
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:03,360
I don't believe vulnerability had anything to do with it.

1572
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:05,960
He already knew he could kill women efficiently.

1573
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:09,680
He was controlling most of the variables by the time the potential victim was getting in

1574
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:11,000
his car.

1575
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:14,440
He'd won her trust or she wouldn't have gotten in the car at all.

1576
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:16,760
He had her isolated in the car.

1577
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:21,120
He had a lethal weapon, the gun, and he'd gotten away with it before so he knows he's

1578
01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:22,360
capable.

1579
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:26,360
The deck was always stacked in his favor whether he knew it consciously or not.

1580
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:30,360
Yeah, I think that's very much what...

1581
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:35,280
Again, it's like one of those things like, I know what I want to say, but she puts it

1582
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:37,280
into words so beautifully.

1583
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:42,720
But yeah, it's the attention that he's sought his whole life from his mother.

1584
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:47,840
He's getting this like, like you said, notoriety or local fame and he's just eating it up because

1585
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:49,600
people know who he is.

1586
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:52,320
Even though they don't know who he is.

1587
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:56,920
As the interview continues, Ed describes how a specific memory of his father may have inspired

1588
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:58,440
him to kill.

1589
01:14:58,440 --> 01:15:00,640
Adrian quote.

1590
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:03,320
Here we see another emotional moment from Kemper.

1591
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:07,360
What he's describing is the classic reenactment of a childhood situation where the offender

1592
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:12,840
felt powerless as a helpless child and now seeks to take back the power he lost by repeating

1593
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:17,080
the violent behavior of his own offender, Kemper's father.

1594
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:21,680
You see this dynamic illustrated far too often in children who commit sex crimes.

1595
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:25,520
After acting out the violation done to them as a way to psychologically distance themselves

1596
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,200
from feeling like a powerless victim.

1597
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:32,280
They achieve this by aligning themselves with the behavior of their own offender, thus making

1598
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:37,320
someone else a victim in the same ritualistic way they were made to feel powerless.

1599
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:42,800
Only now the victim has become the offender and the offender is the one with all the power.

1600
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:46,480
It's complex and yet it's a process that we see happening in children as young as four

1601
01:15:46,480 --> 01:15:47,800
or five.

1602
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:52,000
And while it's absolutely heartbreaking, it's important not to forget that Kemper wasn't

1603
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:56,120
a five year old who didn't know any better and his victims were not chickens, they were

1604
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:57,160
humans.

1605
01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:01,800
He was a grown man almost begging to be caught the way his child's self likely wished someone

1606
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,040
would have interceded and stopped his father.

1607
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:05,040
End quote.

1608
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:09,440
So is she suggesting that the father was sexually abusing him?

1609
01:16:09,440 --> 01:16:13,880
I think so, but again I didn't listen to the interview and all of the sources that I found

1610
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:17,320
didn't really say that so I don't want to make that assumption.

1611
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:20,520
But based on her interpretation it kind of seems like he said something along the lines

1612
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:22,000
of or maybe suggesting that.

1613
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:24,720
Yeah, because then it would make sense, you know like we talked about that at the beginning

1614
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:29,840
of the episode that the mom was real concerned that he would be abusing the girls.

1615
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:36,520
So yeah, but yeah that's really interesting that he's wanting to be caught much like a

1616
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:39,440
five year old would expect to be caught.

1617
01:16:39,440 --> 01:16:40,440
Exactly.

1618
01:16:40,440 --> 01:16:44,680
Furthering the interview, Ed would also try to explain his mindset that he was living

1619
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:49,080
in two separate lives at one, remember he said that earlier about the different different

1620
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:50,080
lives.

1621
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:52,600
Adrien comments on this quote.

1622
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:54,280
Let's look at this rationally.

1623
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:58,040
Kempert comes across as so non-threatening that all these women keep getting into his

1624
01:16:58,040 --> 01:16:59,040
car.

1625
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:02,320
He had tons of opportunities to work on his social skills with women.

1626
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:05,560
He's alone chatting with them over and over again.

1627
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:10,000
But rather than using those experiences as ways to work through his social anxieties,

1628
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:14,840
he made the choice over and over again to use them as victim selection runs.

1629
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:18,840
If Kempert had spent half the time he'd spent killing instead of building up his social

1630
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:22,920
skills, he could have gone on some dates, but it would have taken him more courage to

1631
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:26,680
risk possible rejection from a woman than it did to kill a woman.

1632
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:29,440
Yeah, can't reject that.

1633
01:17:29,440 --> 01:17:32,440
No, that's what he was exactly saying.

1634
01:17:32,440 --> 01:17:36,880
Ed goes on to explain that he thinks he did not go insane so to speak and also he didn't

1635
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,920
get quote unquote lost while growing up.

1636
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:43,640
It seems to be that these were common thoughts among the media after his final arrest.

1637
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:44,960
So like, oh, what went wrong?

1638
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:47,040
When did he get lost or whatever?

1639
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:51,400
Do you think that for him he was more like, I'm a serial killer, but I happen to have

1640
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:53,560
this trauma in my past?

1641
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:57,920
Or do you think that he knew verbatim what he was doing and why he was doing it?

1642
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:03,560
I think that he was in denial about what happened in his childhood and that's what caused him.

1643
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:11,800
I think the former is what he doesn't say with all of his psychological education and

1644
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:14,680
his high IQ, I don't think that he's relating the two.

1645
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:17,880
I think he's like, yeah, I had a fucked up childhood, but the only reason I'm killing

1646
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:21,080
this is my mom, not because of anything else.

1647
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:23,880
Like not fully understanding your own MO.

1648
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:24,880
Exactly.

1649
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:26,320
Like it wouldn't be until after the fact.

1650
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:27,680
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

1651
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:32,840
Is he like, well, yeah, I had a fucked up childhood, but I'm past that now and now I

1652
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:33,840
kill people.

1653
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:36,440
Yeah, I think that's kind of what it sounds like, honestly.

1654
01:18:36,440 --> 01:18:41,520
Like he thinks that it was, well, maybe it was so repressed that it didn't, this is how

1655
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:43,680
it manifested, but it wasn't necessarily the work.

1656
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:45,600
The work wasn't done until after.

1657
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:48,640
And he didn't, exactly, he didn't reflect on it until after he was incarcerated and

1658
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:49,640
gave all these interviews.

1659
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:50,640
Yeah.

1660
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:54,160
Ed did make comments that suggested he was blaming the women that he killed stating that

1661
01:18:54,160 --> 01:18:57,880
they were, quote, flaunting in my face the fact that they could do any damn thing they

1662
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:01,120
wanted and that society is as screwed up as it is, end quote.

1663
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:02,120
No, they did not.

1664
01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:03,120
No, sorry, Ed.

1665
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:04,120
No, they did not.

1666
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:05,120
Absolutely not.

1667
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:06,120
They weren't flaunting anything in your face.

1668
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:07,120
Absolutely not.

1669
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:08,120
You weren't, you were looking for a problem.

1670
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:09,120
For sure.

1671
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:13,480
Adrian states about this, quote, Kemper is uncommonly self aware, which is what makes

1672
01:19:13,480 --> 01:19:16,400
all of his distorted thinking that much more manipulative.

1673
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:17,400
He's right.

1674
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:18,720
He didn't go insane.

1675
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:22,360
The lack of nurture and healthy relationships in his early childhood set the stage for his

1676
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:26,960
adulthood behaviors, and then his teenage fantasies wrote the script he acted out.

1677
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:27,960
And it's tragic.

1678
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:32,320
But at the same time, he's also a man with a high IQ and self aware enough to recognize

1679
01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:36,680
he's not insane, which makes him, by the legal definition, sane.

1680
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,440
He was sane and he was doing all these things anyway.

1681
01:19:39,440 --> 01:19:40,480
He wasn't insane.

1682
01:19:40,480 --> 01:19:44,560
He was angry and fed up and taking his power back from a world that led him be mistreated

1683
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:48,640
as a child and then let him get away with murder of his grandparents when he was in

1684
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:49,640
his teens.

1685
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:54,080
At heart, Kemper is a troubled, abused child who was throwing murderous tantrums as a way

1686
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:55,880
of crying out for help.

1687
01:19:55,880 --> 01:19:59,720
Hope he didn't get as a child and help that came much too late as an incarcerated serial

1688
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:03,080
killer to do him or the victims of his crimes any good.

1689
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:04,080
End quote.

1690
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:07,200
Again, everything we're trying to say, she just puts it in perfect words.

1691
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:12,000
I think that what I find most interesting about this case, especially so far, is that

1692
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:13,240
he is highly intelligent.

1693
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:14,320
We can see that.

1694
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:16,560
He's highly self aware.

1695
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:19,720
What is he telling us and what is he keeping to himself?

1696
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:20,800
Of course.

1697
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:27,240
Because he has to be letting these things out, whether it's with the intention of painting

1698
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:33,440
a specific picture or if it's with the intention of seeming to be more powerful than he was

1699
01:20:33,440 --> 01:20:38,080
or there's some type of a motivator as to why he wants to talk about it.

1700
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:43,120
Maybe it is, oh, I can talk about this and it still makes me relative and interesting

1701
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:44,120
to people.

1702
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:49,000
But again, if he, I mean, he has these tendencies and these traits, like if he's really that

1703
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:53,720
highly intelligent, there are things he's keeping to himself that he'll never talk about.

1704
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:54,720
And that's what she's saying.

1705
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:59,440
It's like he has all the manipulation tactics that one would need to fool people and they

1706
01:20:59,440 --> 01:21:05,080
only tell you what they want you to hear and they say things that you immediately interpret

1707
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:09,200
it the way that they want you to and not form your own opinion on it.

1708
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:12,960
And just to put this into perspective, the interview I keep referring back to was given

1709
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:15,960
in February of 1984 just so that everyone knows.

1710
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:18,320
That's my son's favorite year right now.

1711
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:19,320
Why?

1712
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:20,320
I don't know.

1713
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:24,280
Like our niece was on the couch and she was playing this lap harp and he goes, that's

1714
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:25,280
a violin from 1984.

1715
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:26,280
Oh my gosh.

1716
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:27,280
It's so funny.

1717
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:31,040
It's like, bro, that's a lap harp, not even a violin.

1718
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:32,040
He's so funny.

1719
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:34,120
I don't know why he keeps referencing 1984.

1720
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:39,200
He said when we were at Dairy Queen yesterday getting his first blizzard, we were walking

1721
01:21:39,200 --> 01:21:43,840
in the parking lot and he saw this kind of older Cadillac and he goes, that's from 1984.

1722
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:44,840
And it wasn't.

1723
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:45,840
It was like from the 90s.

1724
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:47,360
But it's so funny.

1725
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:49,400
1984 is like his year right now.

1726
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:51,520
That's really interesting.

1727
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:56,040
So lastly from the interview for now, Ed begins to explain his approach after the killings

1728
01:21:56,040 --> 01:22:00,920
of each victim, stating that he would keep mementos in a box that he kept next to his

1729
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:01,920
guns.

1730
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:08,760
Adrian, quote, this is another example of what Kemper called flaunting that invisibility.

1731
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:10,720
He was confident he could get away with it.

1732
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:15,000
It's further proof of how smart he felt he was and how good he was at killing.

1733
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:18,960
This idea of being the master manipulator comes into play once again, like a skilled

1734
01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:20,400
parlor magician.

1735
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:24,000
He knew the diversion of his speech and the movement of his hands instinctively draw a

1736
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:25,360
person's eye.

1737
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:27,120
It's a survival instinct.

1738
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:30,920
But like a master magician, he's controlling where the attention of police officers is

1739
01:22:30,920 --> 01:22:34,120
focused so they're not looking where he doesn't want them to.

1740
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:35,360
And quote.

1741
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:37,920
It's like he's so calculated.

1742
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:42,280
And realistically, like this sounds really bad, but realistically I can't help but think,

1743
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:47,080
like, he could have gotten away with so many more murders and he was only doing one every

1744
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:50,520
couple months or two every couple months.

1745
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:55,880
On April 20th, 1973, Ed's mother, Clarnel, came home late from a party, waking Ed from

1746
01:22:55,880 --> 01:22:58,000
sleep in the process.

1747
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:02,560
Clarnel went to her bedroom, got herself prepared for bed, and began reading a book.

1748
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:06,760
Shortly into her book, Ed would come into Clarnel's bedroom and greet his mother.

1749
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:10,360
According to Ed, Clarnel looked at him and stated, quote, I suppose you're gonna want

1750
01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:13,640
to sit up all night and talk now, end quote.

1751
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:15,200
Like oh you want to come in and hang out with me?

1752
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:16,200
I just got fucking home.

1753
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:18,360
You know, kind of like that at that too.

1754
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:23,160
Ed would respond to her, quote, no, good night, end quote, and leave the bedroom.

1755
01:23:23,160 --> 01:23:27,440
Ed did not want to sit up all night and talk, but instead he had another plan.

1756
01:23:27,440 --> 01:23:31,160
After waiting for Clarnel to fall asleep, Ed would sneak back into her bedroom and bludgeon

1757
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:34,680
her with a claw hammer before slitting her throat with a pen knife.

1758
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:35,680
What?

1759
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:38,400
A pen knife is like a folding knife.

1760
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:43,120
When Clarnel being deceased, Ed would then behead her and, quote, humiliated her corpse

1761
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:45,040
and, quote, according to him.

1762
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:47,360
So he didn't go into detail about what he did?

1763
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:51,320
Ed stated that he, quote, put her head on a shelf and screamed at it for an hour, threw

1764
01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:54,400
darts at it, and smashed her face in, end quote.

1765
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:55,400
What the fuck?

1766
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:56,400
It's horrible.

1767
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:58,520
Oh my god.

1768
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:02,240
Following this horrific act, Ed claimed that he then cut out the tongue and larynx and

1769
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:06,280
placed them in the garbage disposal, but the disposal was not strong enough to pulverize

1770
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:08,640
the tissue and it ended up back in the sink.

1771
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:10,640
Oh my god.

1772
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:15,440
Ed would later state that, quote, that seemed appropriate as much as she'd bitched and

1773
01:24:15,440 --> 01:24:19,880
screamed and yelled at me over so many years, end quote.

1774
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:21,560
So I'm just gonna pause really quick.

1775
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:31,560
It's like he still wants that approval from his mom, but he waited until she was asleep.

1776
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:36,720
He kills her very quickly and then he took his time with everything else.

1777
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:41,720
I think he's very scared of her and he always has been.

1778
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:45,080
He did everything else after he knew that she couldn't retaliate.

1779
01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:46,080
Yeah.

1780
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:51,200
I mean, that's one of those things is like Butch DeFeo, right?

1781
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:52,480
Butch DeFeo, Jr.

1782
01:24:52,480 --> 01:24:55,000
He, kind of the same thing.

1783
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:56,880
He was scared of his dad.

1784
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,360
He hated that his parents fought.

1785
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:05,040
He killed his whole family in the middle of the night, but he did it at a relatively

1786
01:25:05,040 --> 01:25:09,480
young age and I find it really interesting when we come across cases like this where

1787
01:25:09,480 --> 01:25:17,440
someone is so mad at a parental figure, but they wait until they're like 70.

1788
01:25:17,440 --> 01:25:22,600
It's very interesting that the psychological holds that the parent has over the child is

1789
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:31,560
so immense that you still see that person as that dominating figure that you just can't

1790
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,080
let yourself, even in as big as Pemper is.

1791
01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:36,920
And he couldn't confront her when she was awake.

1792
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:39,480
That's why he probably walked into her room thinking she passed out because she had been

1793
01:25:39,480 --> 01:25:43,520
drinking and he was gonna do maybe do it then or just check to see if she was asleep and

1794
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:45,080
then she wasn't.

1795
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:51,000
And then she made one last comment that he was like, I don't like that.

1796
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:55,040
After this heinous killing, Ed would hide what remained of his mother's corpse in a closet

1797
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:57,880
and went out to drink at a local bar.

1798
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:01,400
He would spend some time at the bar and when he arrived back home, he would phone his mother's

1799
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:07,320
friend, 59 year old Sarah Taylor, Sally Hallett, inviting her over for dinner and a movie.

1800
01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:08,320
Why?

1801
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:09,400
Mind you, it's like 4am at this point.

1802
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:11,320
Why would he do that?

1803
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:16,360
He had said, I guess that him and his mom wanted company they couldn't sleep or something.

1804
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:20,240
I didn't see exactly what it was, but this was like his mom's like best friend.

1805
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:21,640
Yeah.

1806
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:26,200
Upon her arrival, Ed would strangle Sally to death, intending to create a cover story

1807
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:29,160
that the two women had left town together for a vacation.

1808
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:32,240
I was gonna say, who's gonna be sniffing around?

1809
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:33,880
It's gonna be the best friend.

1810
01:26:33,880 --> 01:26:37,440
The best friend's gonna be like, I'm worried about my friend, I haven't heard from her.

1811
01:26:37,440 --> 01:26:41,560
Ed would place Sally's body in a closet as well and clean up the scene of the home, erasing

1812
01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:43,360
any sign of a disturbance.

1813
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:46,400
Could you imagine being the person at the bar that knows Kimber?

1814
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:47,840
This guy cleans the room.

1815
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:53,240
He looks tired every day like he works in a fucking factory or some shit and he's just

1816
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:54,400
killing people all day.

1817
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:58,400
And you find out that he killed his mom, came to have a drink with you, probably bought

1818
01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:00,760
you a fucking drink and then went home and killed someone else?

1819
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:02,360
Like, are you fucking kidding me?

1820
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:03,360
Like I just saw that guy.

1821
01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:04,480
No, I'm totally that guy's alibi.

1822
01:27:04,480 --> 01:27:05,480
He was there all night.

1823
01:27:05,480 --> 01:27:06,480
I think he was there all night.

1824
01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:08,480
What time did he leave actually?

1825
01:27:08,480 --> 01:27:13,080
Ed would then, after cleaning up the house, write a note he intended to leave for police.

1826
01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:17,160
It stated quote, approximately 5.15am Saturday.

1827
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:21,840
No need for her to suffer anymore at the hands of this quote, horrible murderous butcher.

1828
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:24,600
It was quick, asleep, the way I wanted it.

1829
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:27,040
Not sloppy and incomplete, gents.

1830
01:27:27,040 --> 01:27:28,400
Just a lack of time.

1831
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:29,800
I got things to do.

1832
01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:31,040
Three exclamation points.

1833
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:32,040
End quote.

1834
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:35,520
He's like, hey, girlfriends, just let you know.

1835
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:37,040
This is what I've been up to.

1836
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:38,040
BRB.

1837
01:27:38,040 --> 01:27:39,440
Who is all gonna be there.

1838
01:27:39,440 --> 01:27:40,440
Yeah.

1839
01:27:40,440 --> 01:27:41,440
Yeah.

1840
01:27:41,440 --> 01:27:45,280
Referring back to the interview, Ed would describe the moment that he knew he would kill his mother.

1841
01:27:45,280 --> 01:27:49,000
Adrienne analyzes this clip quote, here's Kemper.

1842
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:52,840
He's built up his confidence and ego through his crimes and outwitting police from May of

1843
01:27:52,840 --> 01:27:56,800
72 to April of 73, a little less than a year.

1844
01:27:56,800 --> 01:28:00,240
He's murdered and vented his frustrations on six women in that time.

1845
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:02,760
That's not counting his grandparents in 63.

1846
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:07,440
And finally, he's got enough confidence to be conscious of what it was all for.

1847
01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:11,760
It took the murder and defilement of six women to make him feel man enough to finally cut

1848
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:15,340
the puppet strings he allowed his mother to continue to pull.

1849
01:28:15,340 --> 01:28:20,040
Like Pinocchio, he finally felt like a real boy who could exercise deadly agency against

1850
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:21,680
his puppet master.

1851
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:23,720
But still, he wanted to win.

1852
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:26,360
If not her love, at least her submission.

1853
01:28:26,360 --> 01:28:30,840
He speaks of getting physical with his mother, throwing her on the bed to prove his point.

1854
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:34,960
All of these were warnings to her, all cries for her to amend her behavior so he wouldn't

1855
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:36,640
have to kill her.

1856
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:40,360
Even as he draws closer to killing her, and the only language of power he's learned

1857
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:44,000
to speak, he's asking her to stop treating him so poorly.

1858
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:46,680
He's asking her to stop so he doesn't have to kill her.

1859
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:51,320
It's the mother-child bond, still there, rooted deep in his brain, even though his

1860
01:28:51,320 --> 01:28:55,480
brain and its neutral functions have been twisted and corrupted, hoping he can spare

1861
01:28:55,480 --> 01:28:58,880
her, offering her a last chance to spare herself.

1862
01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:01,200
Of course, she couldn't understand that.

1863
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:05,100
Even if she could, it's not likely she would have changed her habits and behaviors.

1864
01:29:05,100 --> 01:29:06,840
He knew better the whole time.

1865
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:10,960
But to realize that in the end, every choice he made to destroy his own life and the lives

1866
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:15,920
of so many people was all done so he could give his mother the chance to redeem herself.

1867
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:19,160
Really so he could give himself the chance to not have to have his mother's blood on

1868
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:20,160
his hands.

1869
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:21,160
End quote.

1870
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:22,160
Ugh.

1871
01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:23,160
It's so true.

1872
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:24,160
It's so true.

1873
01:29:24,160 --> 01:29:30,480
The preparation with him, picking chicks up and giving them rides, and it was all preparation

1874
01:29:30,480 --> 01:29:32,600
for this one moment.

1875
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:37,080
But I think he was secretly hoping that his mom would catch him in between that time or

1876
01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:38,080
someone would.

1877
01:29:38,080 --> 01:29:40,480
Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that I made you do this or something.

1878
01:29:40,480 --> 01:29:44,280
That's exactly what he wanted, his mom's attention and her to apologize for what she

1879
01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:45,280
did.

1880
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:47,480
But at the same time, he knows this.

1881
01:29:47,480 --> 01:29:51,440
I'm assuming he knows this, at least this one core thing.

1882
01:29:51,440 --> 01:29:55,400
He's doing this because of her and he puts up with it and he knows he's getting to that

1883
01:29:55,400 --> 01:29:57,560
point and he knows he's getting to that point.

1884
01:29:57,560 --> 01:30:00,240
But does he once say it to her?

1885
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:01,240
No.

1886
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:02,240
No, probably not.

1887
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:04,720
He's never been like, why do you treat me this way?

1888
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:05,720
Why do you hate me so much?

1889
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:06,720
Yeah.

1890
01:30:06,720 --> 01:30:07,720
Because what can I do?

1891
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:08,720
Can I do anything to appease you?

1892
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:09,720
Yeah.

1893
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:10,720
That's the narcissism.

1894
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:14,000
And that's also the antisocial, like not even recognizing the other people have feelings.

1895
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:18,120
And it's just, I feel like it's this feeling of like, one day you'll see.

1896
01:30:18,120 --> 01:30:19,120
Yeah.

1897
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:20,120
Ugh.

1898
01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:23,280
And it would go on to say in the interview that he knew he was going to kill his mother

1899
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:25,360
a week before it happened.

1900
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:26,360
Ugh.

1901
01:30:26,360 --> 01:30:28,080
Adrian quote.

1902
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:32,360
We see a slight head nod indicating yes or truth and then we see that obvious and strong

1903
01:30:32,360 --> 01:30:34,000
start of the head shake.

1904
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:35,000
No.

1905
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:39,040
This isn't anything conclusive, but what it suggests to me, based on my experience,

1906
01:30:39,040 --> 01:30:40,280
is conflict.

1907
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:43,840
He tells us he knew he had to kill his mother, but he was conflicted.

1908
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:45,600
Is it yes or is it no?

1909
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:47,360
Should I nod or should I shake?

1910
01:30:47,360 --> 01:30:50,600
And still feels conflicted internally about his revelation.

1911
01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:54,120
To me, with the interrupted footage that we have of this moment, I'd begin to wonder

1912
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:58,840
if at the time he honestly felt confident in his decision to finally kill his mother,

1913
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:02,360
because some of his body language is indicating he didn't.

1914
01:31:02,360 --> 01:31:04,160
She continues quote.

1915
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:07,560
Notice his Adam's apple when he speaks about knowing his mother has to die.

1916
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:09,600
A hard swallow is noticeable.

1917
01:31:09,600 --> 01:31:14,040
A lot of what we might be able to read around his mouth is obscure due to his facial hair.

1918
01:31:14,040 --> 01:31:17,600
A hard swallow like this is a non-specific anxiety indicator.

1919
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:21,360
Kemper feels very anxious when he recalls his actions the day he murdered his mother

1920
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:25,680
and does a very good job of hiding most of his anxiety, but again, the body will always

1921
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:29,520
show you the truth in these little moments if you're looking closely.

1922
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:34,760
At time 449, we see his anger evident in the lowering and pulling together of his eyebrows,

1923
01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:38,320
as he recalls his mother lying there reading a paperback.

1924
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:42,080
Something about the casualness of just coming home drunk and reading enraged Kemper at the

1925
01:31:42,080 --> 01:31:43,080
time.

1926
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:47,560
In addition to anger, we see a layer of contempt in his face here as well.

1927
01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:51,800
Without his mid-face tightening a little more on what on camera appears to be the left side

1928
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:56,240
of his face but would be his actual right side, resulting in the dilation of his left

1929
01:31:56,240 --> 01:32:02,120
nostril, a subtly more defined furrow above the brow, and a trace more elevation of his

1930
01:32:02,120 --> 01:32:05,600
left upper lip on camera, in right, his reality.

1931
01:32:05,600 --> 01:32:09,400
This is super subtle and again his facial hair obscures it mostly.

1932
01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:13,560
All of this is the face's way of broadcasting strong feelings of contempt.

1933
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:18,400
Then at approximately 451, we see what's called a tight tongue-jut.

1934
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:23,160
This is a micro expression for we know reveals disdain, disgust, or repulsion of a person

1935
01:32:23,160 --> 01:32:24,160
or thing.

1936
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:28,640
It's the equivalent of the body saying, you're so repulsive I want to spit you out.

1937
01:32:28,640 --> 01:32:32,800
All of the micro expressions we see in this portion of the interview tracks as authentic,

1938
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:36,640
given the footage we have, it appears he's being honest."

1939
01:32:36,640 --> 01:32:40,560
So first of all, love it because again, behaviour panel.

1940
01:32:40,560 --> 01:32:41,560
Yes, the tongue-jut.

1941
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:47,320
If anybody enjoyed that quote, go watch behaviour panel.

1942
01:32:47,320 --> 01:32:55,840
So my second point in that, when you were talking in it, this conflicted thought, right,

1943
01:32:55,840 --> 01:33:00,800
when you were talking about the nodding and the shaking, and yes, it was the right thing

1944
01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:04,960
to do but it wasn't and I don't know how I feel about it, it reminds me of when he

1945
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:14,200
was saying or when she was talking about his murdering, what was it, Anita?

1946
01:33:14,200 --> 01:33:15,200
Oh yeah.

1947
01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:18,800
Yeah, when he said, yeah, when he was like, oh, I just had to.

1948
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:20,440
I had no other choice.

1949
01:33:20,440 --> 01:33:22,520
I got pushed to this point, you know?

1950
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:23,520
And it's kind of that.

1951
01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:27,360
It's like, you know, I just had to murder my mother.

1952
01:33:27,360 --> 01:33:28,360
I had to.

1953
01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:29,360
What am I going to do?

1954
01:33:29,360 --> 01:33:30,360
Put up with this for forever?

1955
01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:31,360
Yeah.

1956
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:34,360
So it's like, it's very much, yes, it was the right thing to do.

1957
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:35,840
Did I really want to do it?

1958
01:33:35,840 --> 01:33:36,840
No.

1959
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:40,840
Or I'm at least trying to express that I know it wasn't the right thing to do but I

1960
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:41,840
had to do it.

1961
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:47,400
It's funny because of his knowledge in psychology, he thinks he knows the correct way to present

1962
01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:51,000
himself physically so that people believe him.

1963
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:56,560
But you can't fake those specific emotions that you have even if he is anti-social personally.

1964
01:33:56,560 --> 01:34:01,760
He has emotions internally about his own actions, maybe not about other people's feelings or

1965
01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:06,760
whatever, but you can't fake that bodily reaction, right?

1966
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:09,640
So he's thinking, oh, I'm fooling all these people because I'm nodding or I'm shaking

1967
01:34:09,640 --> 01:34:11,600
my head at the right times.

1968
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:15,160
But Adrian's like, well, no, because you're tongue jetted out and you're nostril flared.

1969
01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:16,160
You know what I mean?

1970
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:19,360
Like certain things that you can't control.

1971
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:24,240
Lastly, Adrian comments one more time about the details of Ed killing his mother.

1972
01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:27,120
Quote, there's a number of things I notice here.

1973
01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:30,000
Freeze frame on 436 of video two.

1974
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:33,680
Here I see what's called evanescent cheek puff.

1975
01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:36,320
This micro expression is an indicator of anxiety.

1976
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:39,920
You see it most often in circumstances when the subject is skilled at not revealing their

1977
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:41,240
true feelings.

1978
01:34:41,240 --> 01:34:44,920
But unless someone is a true psychopath, the body doesn't lie.

1979
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:47,420
End quote.

1980
01:34:47,420 --> 01:34:53,600
Which is why like people like bunny can actually do it because that is not, I don't care about

1981
01:34:53,600 --> 01:34:55,800
anyone else's feelings and I have my own.

1982
01:34:55,800 --> 01:34:56,800
I don't have feelings.

1983
01:34:56,800 --> 01:35:02,040
I don't have feelings and I'm able to mimic them in a way that is acceptable.

1984
01:35:02,040 --> 01:35:03,920
That gave me full body heat.

1985
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:04,920
It's just saying.

1986
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:12,160
Especially with Bundy, it's so able to like you like mirror people and show them their

1987
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:17,320
own like physical or behaviors and then yeah, and then be able to mimic them.

1988
01:35:17,320 --> 01:35:21,400
And then that person subconsciously feels like, oh, this person is like me.

1989
01:35:21,400 --> 01:35:22,400
They're listening.

1990
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:23,400
Yeah, they're listening to me.

1991
01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:27,240
So just a reminder before all those quotes, Ed had just killed his mother and her friend

1992
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:30,840
Sally and written that note that he left for police.

1993
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:35,400
Following this, Ed would flee the scene in Sally's vehicle, driving straight to Pueblo,

1994
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:37,880
Colorado without stopping.

1995
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:41,240
At this point, he believed he was already the suspect of a manhunt.

1996
01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:45,000
So he was like, oh, I murdered these two women and now definitely I'm-

1997
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:46,160
Because he left a note, right?

1998
01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:47,160
Oh, that's true.

1999
01:35:47,160 --> 01:35:48,160
Mm-hmm.

2000
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:52,920
Ed would take caffeine pills to stay awake, not stopping at all for the entire over 1,000

2001
01:35:52,920 --> 01:35:53,920
mile drive.

2002
01:35:53,920 --> 01:35:55,640
1,000 miles?

2003
01:35:55,640 --> 01:35:58,160
All the while listening to the radio.

2004
01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:01,600
He believed that if his final murders had been discovered, he would be hearing about

2005
01:36:01,600 --> 01:36:02,600
it on the radio.

2006
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:03,600
Yeah.

2007
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:07,640
When he did not hear anything of the sorts and after arriving in Pueblo, Ed sought out

2008
01:36:07,640 --> 01:36:10,160
a phone booth and made a phone call to police.

2009
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:11,160
I could have predicted that.

2010
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:14,680
I literally was like, he's like, oh, well, nobody's talking about me.

2011
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:15,680
He's so narcissistic.

2012
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:16,680
Yeah.

2013
01:36:16,680 --> 01:36:17,680
Gotta make sure somebody finds him.

2014
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:18,680
But it's also one of those things.

2015
01:36:18,680 --> 01:36:26,840
It reminds me of Robert Durst with Susan Berman when he left the note for the police to find

2016
01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:28,200
her because he cared about her.

2017
01:36:28,200 --> 01:36:29,200
Yeah.

2018
01:36:29,200 --> 01:36:32,320
So still, he cares about his mother enough for them to find her.

2019
01:36:32,320 --> 01:36:37,760
Yeah, BTK leaving a random cereal box and a random truck, a bed of a truck and a parking

2020
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:42,400
lot and then running back to the trash kid where it was found and he's like, I have to

2021
01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:43,400
hide this somewhere.

2022
01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:45,480
He didn't get my note.

2023
01:36:45,480 --> 01:36:49,200
So Ed would immediately confess to the person on the other line of the phone, the police

2024
01:36:49,200 --> 01:36:53,200
department about the murders, but they did not take his call seriously because the police

2025
01:36:53,200 --> 01:36:57,160
knew the man known as Big Ed as a friend and certainly not capable of murder.

2026
01:36:57,160 --> 01:36:58,640
They're like, oh, this is a joke.

2027
01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:00,160
No way of him.

2028
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:02,840
Thinking it was a prank, the operator told them to call back at a later time.

2029
01:37:02,840 --> 01:37:04,480
She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, just call us back.

2030
01:37:04,480 --> 01:37:05,480
Sure.

2031
01:37:05,480 --> 01:37:06,480
Yeah.

2032
01:37:06,480 --> 01:37:07,480
You know what?

2033
01:37:07,480 --> 01:37:08,480
Actually, I get up at four if you could call at 4.15, that'd be great.

2034
01:37:08,480 --> 01:37:09,480
Yeah.

2035
01:37:09,480 --> 01:37:12,400
Well, Ed would take this advice and several hours later, he would call the police station

2036
01:37:12,400 --> 01:37:16,240
again and ask to speak to an officer that he knew personally.

2037
01:37:16,240 --> 01:37:20,200
He would confess this fame-shocking news to this officer who told him to stay where he

2038
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:22,000
was and wait.

2039
01:37:22,000 --> 01:37:25,880
Ed would comply and officers would arrive to take him into custody.

2040
01:37:25,880 --> 01:37:29,120
In this part of the interview, Ed talks about his contemplation when it came to turning

2041
01:37:29,120 --> 01:37:30,920
himself in.

2042
01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:35,240
Hearing this, Adrian states, quote, he turned himself in when the story was over.

2043
01:37:35,240 --> 01:37:37,360
He won the game and he lost.

2044
01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:41,280
He won in that he proved his power to his mother and he lost in that he knows he has

2045
01:37:41,280 --> 01:37:45,080
a deeply held desire to win his mother's approval and love.

2046
01:37:45,080 --> 01:37:48,920
It's what has driven him since he was a child and now what does he have?

2047
01:37:48,920 --> 01:37:53,800
Kemper lived so long fueled only by contradictory drives, the first being the drive to have

2048
01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:57,720
his mother's approval and the other being the drive to punish his mother for withholding

2049
01:37:57,720 --> 01:37:59,400
her approval.

2050
01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:04,340
Without the strings or a puppeteer, Pinocchio is not sure what to do when he's not performing.

2051
01:38:04,340 --> 01:38:09,160
His entire world paradigm was built on either longing for or raging against his mother.

2052
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:12,800
Now that she's gone, he doesn't know who he is or what to do.

2053
01:38:12,800 --> 01:38:17,240
At first, he didn't want to give up his freedom, but after killing his mother, perhaps he realized

2054
01:38:17,240 --> 01:38:20,120
the freedom he thought he had was an illusion.

2055
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:24,880
He'd always been and now always will be a prisoner of his mother's dysfunction.

2056
01:38:24,880 --> 01:38:28,720
Whether the reason, whatever the reason, he turns himself in because he didn't have the

2057
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:31,320
will to keep going anymore now that he'd killed her.

2058
01:38:31,320 --> 01:38:32,320
Any quote?

2059
01:38:32,320 --> 01:38:33,320
Yeah, what do you do?

2060
01:38:33,320 --> 01:38:36,400
You go start a new chapter, you go find a new antagonist.

2061
01:38:36,400 --> 01:38:37,400
You're not mad at anybody anymore?

2062
01:38:37,400 --> 01:38:38,400
They're not mad.

2063
01:38:38,400 --> 01:38:39,400
They're not here.

2064
01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:40,400
You're going to what?

2065
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:41,400
Continue to kill coeds?

2066
01:38:41,400 --> 01:38:45,600
But the whole point of it was to rage against your mom?

2067
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:46,600
I don't know.

2068
01:38:46,600 --> 01:38:51,840
It's weird because yes, maybe subconsciously he felt like he was getting back at his mom,

2069
01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:53,800
but did his mom ever really know?

2070
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:54,800
No, of course not.

2071
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:57,720
It's not like he was like, hey, I murdered eight people and I'm going to murder you.

2072
01:38:57,720 --> 01:38:58,720
He didn't say that.

2073
01:38:58,720 --> 01:38:59,720
Yeah, I don't think he did.

2074
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:00,720
I don't know.

2075
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:04,200
It kind of reminds me of Mark David Chapman too, where it's like this whole, although

2076
01:39:04,200 --> 01:39:12,480
he was severely schizophrenic, or on the schizophrenic spectrum, and, you know, but his climax was

2077
01:39:12,480 --> 01:39:13,480
killing John Lennon.

2078
01:39:13,480 --> 01:39:15,320
Then what do you do after that?

2079
01:39:15,320 --> 01:39:17,080
He was totally fine with being taken in.

2080
01:39:17,080 --> 01:39:19,600
He was reading the catcher in the rye when the police showed up.

2081
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:20,600
Yeah, he's like, whatever.

2082
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:21,600
My job is done.

2083
01:39:21,600 --> 01:39:22,600
Yeah, my job's done.

2084
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:23,600
This is it.

2085
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:25,200
I don't need to fight anything anymore.

2086
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:26,200
Jesus.

2087
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:28,240
That's true though.

2088
01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:32,240
Upon being arrested, Ed would verbally confess to six additional murders of female college

2089
01:39:32,240 --> 01:39:36,160
students when asked in a later interview why he turned himself in.

2090
01:39:36,160 --> 01:39:39,360
Ed stated, quote, the original purpose was gone.

2091
01:39:39,360 --> 01:39:42,480
It wasn't serving any physical or real or emotional purpose.

2092
01:39:42,480 --> 01:39:44,200
It was just a pure waste of time.

2093
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:47,000
Emotionally, I couldn't handle it much longer.

2094
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:50,240
Toward the end there, I started feeling the folly of the whole damn thing.

2095
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:54,280
And at the point of near exhaustion, near collapse, I just said to hell with it and called it

2096
01:39:54,280 --> 01:39:55,280
all off, end quote.

2097
01:39:55,280 --> 01:39:58,680
Keep in mind, he hasn't slept in like 48 hours to this point too.

2098
01:39:58,680 --> 01:40:00,560
Yeah, he's high off of caffeine bills.

2099
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:05,320
So I'm hearing in this quote though that it's his decision.

2100
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:08,160
He decided that he was going to be arrested, but he could have gotten away with it if he

2101
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:09,160
wanted.

2102
01:40:09,160 --> 01:40:13,080
Yeah, it's like, no, it's my decision because I called police and I turned myself in.

2103
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:14,080
You wouldn't have caught me.

2104
01:40:14,080 --> 01:40:16,480
Yeah, it's another exercise of control.

2105
01:40:16,480 --> 01:40:17,480
Yeah.

2106
01:40:17,480 --> 01:40:21,040
So remember the 17 year old girl that he got engaged to in 73?

2107
01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:22,040
Oh my God.

2108
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:25,400
They were still together at this point.

2109
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:26,400
This whole time.

2110
01:40:26,400 --> 01:40:31,280
The engagement lasted over a year, but the girl broke it off when Ed got arrested.

2111
01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:32,280
Yes.

2112
01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:35,480
Like what?

2113
01:40:35,480 --> 01:40:37,240
Wherever you are, bless you girl.

2114
01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:39,040
So he got arrested in 73.

2115
01:40:39,040 --> 01:40:42,680
It's the same year they got engaged, but they had met in like 71.

2116
01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:43,680
Oh my God.

2117
01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:44,680
Yeah.

2118
01:40:44,680 --> 01:40:45,680
I can't even imagine.

2119
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:46,680
Right.

2120
01:40:46,680 --> 01:40:47,680
Could you imagine?

2121
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:50,040
So like I said earlier, like due to her age, the parents requested that her name be kept

2122
01:40:50,040 --> 01:40:51,040
out of the media.

2123
01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:52,040
Absolutely.

2124
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:53,800
So I'm not even there, which I don't fucking blame them.

2125
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:55,880
Even then I probably changed my name in stone, honestly.

2126
01:40:55,880 --> 01:40:56,880
Yeah.

2127
01:40:56,880 --> 01:41:01,680
Ed Kemper would be indicted on eight counts of first degree murder on May 7th, 1973, less

2128
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:05,360
than a month after the killings of his mother and Sally.

2129
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:10,840
Ed would be assigned the Chief Public Defender of Santa Cruz County, Attorney Jim Jackson.

2130
01:41:10,840 --> 01:41:14,920
Due to the elaborate confession Ed had given authorities, the defense only had one option

2131
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:19,560
to advise, plead not guilty by reason of insanity.

2132
01:41:19,560 --> 01:41:25,040
While in custody in a waiting trial, Ed would attempt to suicide two separate times.

2133
01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:29,000
The trial would begin on October 23rd, 1973.

2134
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:33,440
Three court appointed psychiatrists had evaluated Ed prior to the trial and had all found him

2135
01:41:33,440 --> 01:41:35,240
legally sane.

2136
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:38,280
One of these psychiatrists was Dr. Joel Fort.

2137
01:41:38,280 --> 01:41:42,440
He had investigated Ed's expunged juvenile records, including the one that indicated

2138
01:41:42,440 --> 01:41:43,960
Ed was psychotic.

2139
01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:50,200
Dr. Fort also interviewed Ed separately under truth serum and indicated to the court during

2140
01:41:50,200 --> 01:41:55,480
the trial that in his findings, Ed had engaged in cannibalism, cooking parts of his victims'

2141
01:41:55,480 --> 01:41:58,120
bodies and putting them in a casserole of sorts.

2142
01:41:58,120 --> 01:42:02,960
He said that or that was under this truth serum?

2143
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:06,840
The doctor said that Ed said that under this truth serum.

2144
01:42:06,840 --> 01:42:12,080
Although this was his finding, Dr. Fort determined that Ed was fully cognizant in each case of

2145
01:42:12,080 --> 01:42:15,800
murder and even added that Ed enjoyed the prospect of infamy that was associated with

2146
01:42:15,800 --> 01:42:18,440
being labeled as a heinous murderer.

2147
01:42:18,440 --> 01:42:25,680
Ed would later recant this confession that he cannibalized his victims.

2148
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:30,400
When I hear truth serum, I think of Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story and he's like, I am

2149
01:42:30,400 --> 01:42:33,600
Mrs. Nesbitt and he's all like woo!

2150
01:42:33,600 --> 01:42:36,720
I feel like that and I feel like that's kind of like Ed.

2151
01:42:36,720 --> 01:42:39,960
He's like, yeah, I cannibalized him too or whatever.

2152
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:40,960
I don't know.

2153
01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:41,960
I don't know.

2154
01:42:41,960 --> 01:42:43,720
That's not how he sounds at all.

2155
01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:44,720
No, I know.

2156
01:42:44,720 --> 01:42:46,760
It sounds like very James Bond, right?

2157
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:51,760
You're under a truth serum, Bond, and within 10 minutes you'll be dead.

2158
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:54,040
He's like, oh, I ate people.

2159
01:42:54,040 --> 01:42:55,040
Yeah, exactly.

2160
01:42:55,040 --> 01:43:01,800
But there would be no where, at least, I mean we heard the story just now, where would

2161
01:43:01,800 --> 01:43:02,800
that have come from?

2162
01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:05,200
Because everything else is clearly intertwined.

2163
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:08,920
I think it was just like a silly comment.

2164
01:43:08,920 --> 01:43:13,000
The state of California used the I'm not in standard that stated that for a defendant

2165
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:17,920
to quote, establish a defense on the ground of insanity, it must be clearly proved that

2166
01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:22,320
at the time of committing the act, the party accused was laboring under such defect of

2167
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:27,760
reason from disease of mind and not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing,

2168
01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:32,000
or if he did know it that he did not know what he was doing was wrong, end quote.

2169
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:33,360
Which he knew he was, but he was wrong.

2170
01:43:33,360 --> 01:43:37,000
Of course, for more information on the insanity defense, I just wanted to pepper this in here

2171
01:43:37,000 --> 01:43:41,120
and I'm not in listen to our mental breakdown on this topic because we did a whole episode

2172
01:43:41,120 --> 01:43:44,000
on the insanity plea and all that stuff.

2173
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:47,240
The court found that Ed appeared to have known that the nature of his acts were wrong and

2174
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:49,240
that he had shown malice a forethought.

2175
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:53,960
Also, I found out while doing this research that it's not malice of forethought, it's

2176
01:43:53,960 --> 01:43:55,640
malice of forethought.

2177
01:43:55,640 --> 01:43:56,640
A forethought.

2178
01:43:56,640 --> 01:43:57,640
I did not know that.

2179
01:43:57,640 --> 01:44:00,640
And I wrote it out and was like, oh, I learned something new.

2180
01:44:00,640 --> 01:44:02,000
A forethought.

2181
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:06,760
On November 1st, Ed was given the option to speak to the court and he took the stand.

2182
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:11,160
He would testify that he killed his victims because he wanted them, quote, for myself,

2183
01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:12,160
like possessions, end quote.

2184
01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:14,760
Like, you know how about your fucking case here, buddy?

2185
01:44:14,760 --> 01:44:16,560
I don't think I was trying to help this case.

2186
01:44:16,560 --> 01:44:17,560
He's not.

2187
01:44:17,560 --> 01:44:19,560
He wants to be known as this infamous dude.

2188
01:44:19,560 --> 01:44:20,560
Of course.

2189
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:23,800
He also attempted to convince the jury that he was insane based on the reasoning that

2190
01:44:23,800 --> 01:44:28,000
his actions could have been committed by only someone that had a skewed mind.

2191
01:44:28,000 --> 01:44:32,160
He would also suggest that when he was killing, another personality took over, stating it

2192
01:44:32,160 --> 01:44:34,840
was, quote, kind of like blacking out, end quote.

2193
01:44:34,840 --> 01:44:35,840
So he's claiming he has DID.

2194
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:36,840
I know.

2195
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:39,760
And I honestly fucking hate that multiple personalities were at this time.

2196
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:43,040
But yes, I hate that though, because it's like you're giving like everyone that's been

2197
01:44:43,040 --> 01:44:46,440
diagnosed with DID like such a bad like cloud over their head.

2198
01:44:46,440 --> 01:44:47,840
Like that's not how fucking works.

2199
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:48,840
Okay.

2200
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:55,080
I was watching a YouTube thing recently where it was really strange and I definitely did

2201
01:44:55,080 --> 01:45:00,200
not feel like this person was purposely doing this.

2202
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:04,880
There was this guy and I think he killed his girlfriend or something.

2203
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:09,240
And he's in this interrogation room and he's like, you talk about like Elliot Roger being

2204
01:45:09,240 --> 01:45:11,960
a being a like an anime villain.

2205
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:16,880
This guy was so animated and he's like, I did not kill her and like would like slam his

2206
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:17,880
fist.

2207
01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:22,400
And it was this bizarre rage where like his body language didn't even match what he was

2208
01:45:22,400 --> 01:45:23,640
saying.

2209
01:45:23,640 --> 01:45:25,520
It was so strange.

2210
01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:29,560
And then I mean, like within the course of four to five hours during this interrogation,

2211
01:45:29,560 --> 01:45:32,960
at a certain point, he starts to like calm down.

2212
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:37,840
And he's so calm in a way that is not that it's a different person.

2213
01:45:37,840 --> 01:45:42,480
It was just and it was so gradual that I was like, does this person suffer from DID?

2214
01:45:42,480 --> 01:45:45,600
Like it was like watching it in real time.

2215
01:45:45,600 --> 01:45:50,480
And then the whole interview over like the course of four or five hours and it just being

2216
01:45:50,480 --> 01:45:54,440
so not again, not totally different.

2217
01:45:54,440 --> 01:45:55,560
It was the same person.

2218
01:45:55,560 --> 01:46:00,000
You're watching the same person and it didn't look like it was out of exhaustion or like

2219
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:02,360
they were because he still wasn't confessing.

2220
01:46:02,360 --> 01:46:06,880
It was just like, well, you know, and he was just more calm with his delivery.

2221
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:10,440
Some of his hand like his hand motions were the same, but it was really strange.

2222
01:46:10,440 --> 01:46:11,440
Yeah, that is very strange.

2223
01:46:11,440 --> 01:46:15,040
Well, it's also, I mean, we've talked, we did a whole episode on DID as well.

2224
01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:17,440
So if you're interested in that, go listen to that episode.

2225
01:46:17,440 --> 01:46:22,000
But it's, it is very interesting to actually see like people that like switch like during

2226
01:46:22,000 --> 01:46:23,000
the interviews.

2227
01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:24,720
It's actually really, really interesting.

2228
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:25,720
But I agree with you.

2229
01:46:25,720 --> 01:46:28,400
Hems saying like, oh, it's like I blacked out and I became a different person.

2230
01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:31,320
That's not well, did you black out or did you become a different person?

2231
01:46:31,320 --> 01:46:33,560
How would you know you're a different person if you black out?

2232
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:35,200
Yeah, exactly.

2233
01:46:35,200 --> 01:46:40,400
On November 8th, 1973, the jury would deliberate for five hours before declaring Edmond de

2234
01:46:40,400 --> 01:46:43,880
Meel Kemper III sane and guilty on all counts.

2235
01:46:43,880 --> 01:46:48,680
Ed would request the death penalty, requesting quote, death by torture and quote.

2236
01:46:48,680 --> 01:46:50,680
Just torture me to death.

2237
01:46:50,680 --> 01:46:54,480
However, at the same time, there was a ban on capital punishment in the state of California

2238
01:46:54,480 --> 01:47:00,600
and Ed would instead receive seven years to life for each count to be served concurrently.

2239
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:04,640
He would be sent to the California medical facility in Vacaville.

2240
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:09,400
In his early years of prison, Ed was incarcerated in the same block as other infamous killers,

2241
01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:11,680
such as Herbert Mullen and Charlie Manson.

2242
01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:12,680
Oh my gosh.

2243
01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:16,480
Now, we probably all know the story of Charles Manson, but if you're not aware, Herbert

2244
01:47:16,480 --> 01:47:21,320
Mullen was responsible for killing 13 people in California in the early 1970s.

2245
01:47:21,320 --> 01:47:24,920
And this was one of the guys that was active at the same time as Ed.

2246
01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:30,200
Ed was known as having a specific negative attitude towards Herbert, calling him quote,

2247
01:47:30,200 --> 01:47:34,720
just a cold-blooded killer, killing everybody he saw for no good reason, end quote.

2248
01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:35,720
I'm like-

2249
01:47:35,720 --> 01:47:36,720
I said that about him?

2250
01:47:36,720 --> 01:47:37,720
About Herbert.

2251
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:39,720
So you're not just a cold-blooded fucking killer?

2252
01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:40,720
No, he has a purpose.

2253
01:47:40,720 --> 01:47:41,720
No, yeah.

2254
01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:42,720
He's his life's purpose.

2255
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:43,720
He's his life's purpose.

2256
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:44,720
Not to that.

2257
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:48,280
Ed was known to manipulate and physically intimidate Herbert in prison, who stood just

2258
01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:52,080
five feet nine inches tall, a foot shorter than Ed.

2259
01:47:52,080 --> 01:47:56,040
Ed would also state about Herbert that he quote, had a habit of singing and bothering

2260
01:47:56,040 --> 01:48:01,160
people when somebody tried to watch TV, so I threw water on him to shut him up.

2261
01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:05,280
Then when he was a good boy, I'd give him peanuts, herby-liked peanuts.

2262
01:48:05,280 --> 01:48:08,080
No, we did not.

2263
01:48:08,080 --> 01:48:11,560
That was effective, because pretty soon he asked permission to sing.

2264
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:16,400
That's called behavior modification treatment, end quote, which is fucking cringy, like

2265
01:48:16,400 --> 01:48:17,400
what?

2266
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:20,120
Like, okay, herby likes peanuts, it's hilarious.

2267
01:48:20,120 --> 01:48:21,320
Herby likes peanuts.

2268
01:48:21,320 --> 01:48:23,760
But that's called behavior modification treatment.

2269
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:24,760
He's not wrong.

2270
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:26,240
He's not.

2271
01:48:26,240 --> 01:48:28,640
God, could you imagine if he used his powers for good?

2272
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:29,640
That's what I'm saying.

2273
01:48:29,640 --> 01:48:31,640
He could have been an awesome psychiatrist.

2274
01:48:31,640 --> 01:48:34,200
Yeah, it could have helped a lot of people.

2275
01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:38,880
Today, Ed remains in prison among the general population and is considered a model prisoner.

2276
01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:43,280
In fact, he was even in charge of scheduling other inmates for therapy appointments and

2277
01:48:43,280 --> 01:48:47,480
has become an accomplished craftsman of ceramic cups.

2278
01:48:47,480 --> 01:48:48,480
Like what?

2279
01:48:48,480 --> 01:48:49,480
Like ceramic.

2280
01:48:49,480 --> 01:48:51,600
Yeah, he realized he had a love for ceramic cups.

2281
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:52,600
Yeah.

2282
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:57,040
He was a shock people when he became a prolific narrator of audiobooks for a charity program

2283
01:48:57,040 --> 01:48:59,440
that prepared material for the visually impaired.

2284
01:48:59,440 --> 01:49:00,440
Wow.

2285
01:49:00,440 --> 01:49:04,760
In 1987, a Los Angeles Times article stated that Ed was the coordinator of the prison's

2286
01:49:04,760 --> 01:49:10,040
program and had personally spent over 5,000 hours of his time narrating books with several

2287
01:49:10,040 --> 01:49:12,080
hundred completed recordings.

2288
01:49:12,080 --> 01:49:13,080
That's amazing.

2289
01:49:13,080 --> 01:49:17,040
Obviously, we know that Ed granted plenty of interviews after he was incarcerated.

2290
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:21,160
The last quote I have from criminal psychologist Adrienne Arno is following interview footage

2291
01:49:21,160 --> 01:49:26,200
of Ed considering where he might be today if he had never killed in the first place.

2292
01:49:26,200 --> 01:49:30,600
Adrienne states quote, What makes me say he knows it's a fantasy is the fact a number

2293
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:36,120
of other sociopath serial killers have had normal mundane family lives as adult men.

2294
01:49:36,120 --> 01:49:40,280
So it's not impossible to achieve even with an antisocial personality.

2295
01:49:40,280 --> 01:49:43,880
It's not impossible to achieve while still actively murdering people.

2296
01:49:43,880 --> 01:49:47,840
Kemper is intelligent enough to have known he could have had it if he really wanted to.

2297
01:49:47,840 --> 01:49:52,400
He'd proven to himself and the world he was a master manipulator capable of psychologically

2298
01:49:52,400 --> 01:49:55,920
disarming women even in high risk circumstances.

2299
01:49:55,920 --> 01:50:00,200
And yet without the hope of repairing his relationship with his mother, he didn't see the point

2300
01:50:00,200 --> 01:50:01,400
in even trying.

2301
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:02,400
End quote.

2302
01:50:02,400 --> 01:50:08,280
FBI profiler John Douglas would describe Ed after interviewing him as quote, among the

2303
01:50:08,280 --> 01:50:12,080
brightest, end quote, prison inmates he had ever interviewed.

2304
01:50:12,080 --> 01:50:16,480
He would add that he even personally liked Ed, referring to him as quote, friendly,

2305
01:50:16,480 --> 01:50:20,760
open, sensitive, and having a good sense of humor, end quote.

2306
01:50:20,760 --> 01:50:24,480
Ed was noted as saying at the end of another interview quote, There's somebody out there

2307
01:50:24,480 --> 01:50:29,120
that is watching this and hasn't done that, hasn't killed people and wants to, and rages

2308
01:50:29,120 --> 01:50:33,840
inside and struggles with those feelings, or is so sure that they have it under control.

2309
01:50:33,840 --> 01:50:35,920
They need to talk to somebody about it.

2310
01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:39,520
Trust somebody enough to sit down and talk about something that isn't a crime.

2311
01:50:39,520 --> 01:50:41,440
Thinking that way isn't a crime.

2312
01:50:41,440 --> 01:50:43,000
Doing it isn't just a crime.

2313
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:44,360
It's a horrible thing.

2314
01:50:44,360 --> 01:50:49,760
He doesn't know when to quit and it can't be stopped easily once it starts, end quote.

2315
01:50:49,760 --> 01:50:53,640
It's like, I have the full body heaps again because it's like he had the six years in

2316
01:50:53,640 --> 01:50:56,840
the mental institution and he was doing miraculously.

2317
01:50:56,840 --> 01:51:00,280
And now that he's been in prison for so long, he's doing miraculously.

2318
01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:05,640
It's like, he needed structure his whole life and he didn't get it.

2319
01:51:05,640 --> 01:51:10,320
And all he got was ridicule and blame and whatever from his mom and his dad.

2320
01:51:10,320 --> 01:51:12,440
I'm not victim blaming, but God damn it.

2321
01:51:12,440 --> 01:51:16,480
Like, fucking put him up for adoption if you're gonna treat him like shit.

2322
01:51:16,480 --> 01:51:22,120
I think just, yeah, the incarceration thing, I just think back to that juvenile thing.

2323
01:51:22,120 --> 01:51:25,480
I was like, oh, don't just get his record expunged.

2324
01:51:25,480 --> 01:51:28,400
He killed two people and he's 21 years old.

2325
01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:31,520
But I mean, he doesn't even have a felony.

2326
01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:33,160
He can purchase a gun.

2327
01:51:33,160 --> 01:51:35,120
You know, I mean, just things like that.

2328
01:51:35,120 --> 01:51:36,680
Just kind of, it's very true.

2329
01:51:36,680 --> 01:51:38,520
It's, yeah.

2330
01:51:38,520 --> 01:51:42,400
It's hard because again, it's like, it's completely an urcher in this instance.

2331
01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:43,400
Absolutely.

2332
01:51:43,400 --> 01:51:44,400
Things were the lack thereof.

2333
01:51:44,400 --> 01:51:45,400
Yeah.

2334
01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:48,480
Edward first become eligible for parole in 1979.

2335
01:51:48,480 --> 01:51:53,560
He would be denied parole that year as well as being denied parole hearings in 1980, 1981

2336
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:55,280
and 1982.

2337
01:51:55,280 --> 01:51:58,600
Edward waive his right to a hearing in 1985.

2338
01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:02,720
In 88, he would attend his next hearing where he was denied as well.

2339
01:52:02,720 --> 01:52:06,800
Following this, Edward state, quote, society is not ready in any shape or form for me.

2340
01:52:06,800 --> 01:52:09,520
I can't fault them for that end quote.

2341
01:52:09,520 --> 01:52:14,080
In 91 and 94, Edward would be denied parole again and waive his right for a hearing in

2342
01:52:14,080 --> 01:52:16,720
97, 2002.

2343
01:52:16,720 --> 01:52:20,680
And in 2007, Edward attend the hearing once again being denied.

2344
01:52:20,680 --> 01:52:28,520
How do you think that feels for him after having killed these women so that he wouldn't

2345
01:52:28,520 --> 01:52:32,240
have to be rejected but yet he keeps going to these parole hearings?

2346
01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:33,240
Yeah.

2347
01:52:33,240 --> 01:52:36,240
And he keeps getting rejected.

2348
01:52:36,240 --> 01:52:40,080
Here I think it's Adrian Simons stated about this hearing, quote, we don't care how much

2349
01:52:40,080 --> 01:52:43,680
of a model prisoner he is because of the enormity of his crimes, end quote.

2350
01:52:43,680 --> 01:52:44,680
Yeah.

2351
01:52:44,680 --> 01:52:45,680
I mean, it's true.

2352
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:46,680
I'll never get out.

2353
01:52:46,680 --> 01:52:49,880
In 2012, Edward waive his right to a hearing once again.

2354
01:52:49,880 --> 01:52:53,760
In 2015, Edward would be declared mentally disabled after suffering a stroke and he would

2355
01:52:53,760 --> 01:52:56,360
retire from the narrations of the audiobooks.

2356
01:52:56,360 --> 01:52:57,360
Oh, wow.

2357
01:52:57,360 --> 01:53:01,920
In 2016, Edward would receive his first rural violation report ever for failing to provide

2358
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:04,040
a urine sample during a routine checkup.

2359
01:53:04,040 --> 01:53:06,760
I think he didn't know what was going on.

2360
01:53:06,760 --> 01:53:07,760
Probably.

2361
01:53:07,760 --> 01:53:10,600
In 2017, Edward would be denied parole yet again.

2362
01:53:10,600 --> 01:53:16,920
The next time Edmund and Mille Kemper III will be eligible for parole will be in 2024.

2363
01:53:16,920 --> 01:53:17,920
2024.

2364
01:53:17,920 --> 01:53:26,000
It's like in a month.

2365
01:53:26,000 --> 01:53:29,280
So that is the story of Edmund and Mille Kemper III.

2366
01:53:29,280 --> 01:53:33,720
I want to give a huge, huge shout out to Kelly Christranker's author of the article that

2367
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:37,760
we found so much good information on and an even bigger shout out to Adrienne Arno for

2368
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:41,400
her direct quotes that helped literally make this episode possible.

2369
01:53:41,400 --> 01:53:45,920
I feel like that's the first time I've ever found something that I related to so much

2370
01:53:45,920 --> 01:53:47,640
and that related to the podcast so much.

2371
01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:48,960
I was like, I cannot.

2372
01:53:48,960 --> 01:53:50,240
I didn't skip any of those quotes.

2373
01:53:50,240 --> 01:53:54,760
Like I put every single one in there and I did it on purpose because I wanted all of

2374
01:53:54,760 --> 01:53:59,080
that like information to be there and thank you for providing that honestly that really

2375
01:53:59,080 --> 01:54:01,160
made this episode that much better, I think.

2376
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:02,160
Yeah, for sure.

2377
01:54:02,160 --> 01:54:03,160
But yeah.

2378
01:54:03,160 --> 01:54:04,160
Oh gosh.

2379
01:54:04,160 --> 01:54:07,000
I am so grateful I didn't cover this case.

2380
01:54:07,000 --> 01:54:09,680
Dude, 10,000 words by the way.

2381
01:54:09,680 --> 01:54:11,760
Because that whole episode was 10,000.

2382
01:54:11,760 --> 01:54:13,480
He also, more because we bantered.

2383
01:54:13,480 --> 01:54:14,480
Yeah.

2384
01:54:14,480 --> 01:54:16,280
So I just said more than 10,000 words.

2385
01:54:16,280 --> 01:54:17,280
That's amazing.

2386
01:54:17,280 --> 01:54:18,800
The last couple hours.

2387
01:54:18,800 --> 01:54:24,640
And this is one of our, I mean this, we haven't had a two hour episode in a long time.

2388
01:54:24,640 --> 01:54:25,640
Yeah.

2389
01:54:25,640 --> 01:54:26,640
This is one of our two hour episodes.

2390
01:54:26,640 --> 01:54:32,280
Especially on a, on a, an accessible episode for everyone.

2391
01:54:32,280 --> 01:54:34,120
So yeah, really excited about that.

2392
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:35,120
Yeah, absolutely.

2393
01:54:35,120 --> 01:54:39,880
And to you guys that answered our poll about the episode ideally being two hours.

2394
01:54:39,880 --> 01:54:40,880
Here you go.

2395
01:54:40,880 --> 01:54:41,880
Sorry.

2396
01:54:41,880 --> 01:54:42,880
Here it is.

2397
01:54:42,880 --> 01:54:43,880
All three of you.

2398
01:54:43,880 --> 01:54:45,640
I see you Tyler and I see you Brady.

2399
01:54:45,640 --> 01:54:47,920
I'm the only one that voted for less than 30 minutes.

2400
01:54:47,920 --> 01:54:48,920
You're so funny.

2401
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:49,920
I'm hilarious.

2402
01:54:49,920 --> 01:54:50,920
Okay.

2403
01:54:50,920 --> 01:54:52,400
I think we're gonna wrap it up.

2404
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:53,400
Oh man, it's late.

2405
01:54:53,400 --> 01:54:54,400
It's a late one.

2406
01:54:54,400 --> 01:54:55,400
But thank you guys for sticking.

2407
01:54:55,400 --> 01:54:56,400
Crack open up.

2408
01:54:56,400 --> 01:54:57,400
Crack open up.

2409
01:54:57,400 --> 01:54:58,400
Crack open up.

2410
01:54:58,400 --> 01:54:59,400
Crack open up.

2411
01:54:59,400 --> 01:55:00,400
Crack open up.

2412
01:55:00,400 --> 01:55:01,400
Crack open up.

2413
01:55:01,400 --> 01:55:02,240
Crack open up.

2414
01:55:02,240 --> 01:55:06,840
If you're still here, we absolutely love you guys and admire your responses and all

2415
01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:10,480
the stuff that you send us and reach out to us and all that stuff.

2416
01:55:10,480 --> 01:55:14,040
And yeah, we look forward to talking to you next time and hopefully getting some of those

2417
01:55:14,040 --> 01:55:15,280
requests finished.

2418
01:55:15,280 --> 01:55:16,280
Absolutely.

2419
01:55:16,280 --> 01:55:20,640
If you like what we do, check out our Patreon, tier two and three gets extra episodes every

2420
01:55:20,640 --> 01:55:23,200
month on the 29th.

2421
01:55:23,200 --> 01:55:25,880
And if you want to support us monetarily, we also have a PayPal.

2422
01:55:25,880 --> 01:55:26,880
Yes.

2423
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:27,880
Which is at Diagnosing a Killer.

2424
01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:28,880
Yes, I think so.

2425
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:32,920
And again, if you guys want to donate, you can also do custom donations as well on the

2426
01:55:32,920 --> 01:55:33,920
Patreon.

2427
01:55:33,920 --> 01:55:37,640
If you guys only, you know, you're like, well, I don't want to do $5 a month, you know, but

2428
01:55:37,640 --> 01:55:42,720
you want to get access to those ad free episodes, you can do a dollar a month, I'm pretty sure.

2429
01:55:42,720 --> 01:55:44,040
Customize your donation.

2430
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:47,160
Yeah, I think you can even go down to 50 cents a month.

2431
01:55:47,160 --> 01:55:50,120
Either way, if you want to support us monetarily, please do so.

2432
01:55:50,120 --> 01:55:55,920
We really appreciate everyone that has thus far and continues to support us in general.

2433
01:55:55,920 --> 01:55:56,920
Yes.

2434
01:55:56,920 --> 01:55:57,920
Because we love you guys.

2435
01:55:57,920 --> 01:55:59,920
It would not be possible without you.

2436
01:55:59,920 --> 01:56:01,920
Let's live in this.

2437
01:56:01,920 --> 01:56:03,920
Why do we both just speak that?

2438
01:56:03,920 --> 01:56:04,920
Okay.

2439
01:56:04,920 --> 01:56:05,920
Ugh.

2440
01:56:05,920 --> 01:56:06,920
All right.

2441
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:07,920
Love you.

2442
01:56:07,920 --> 01:56:08,920
Love you.

2443
01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:09,920
Bye.

2444
01:56:09,920 --> 01:56:16,480
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