Hello!
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.
I'm Koelle.
And I'm Kenna.
My voice sounded really low.
Low.
Ugh.
What is that?
Ugh.
I'm so over it already.
Ugh.
I'm just, you know what it is?
Is that I'm just now getting a little bit of caffeine in my body and I'm like, ugh.
Like I'm settling into this feeling of like, okay, I'm getting re-energized.
I'm getting my second wind of the day because we're recording this a little late in the
evening.
I'm the opposite because I had a doctor's appointment today like you know and I had
to get my blood drawn.
Not had to, but I needed to get my blood drawn.
I had to get my blood drawn.
And you know, doctors.
Ugh.
Yeah.
Ugh.
God, how embarrassing.
I was feeling an anxiety like all day, even sitting in the room like I was worried.
And then as soon as I left like all of that crash and so now my body's all like imbalanced
emotionally.
Yeah.
So I'm like, ugh, I'm just tired.
I definitely get that way that if I have quite a bit of anxiety about, you know, like
you said like a doctor's appointment or a meeting or something and then it's over,
my body just starts to like relax and I was like, okay, you can take a nap now.
No, seriously.
And I'm like, thanks.
Like this wasn't a life or death situation.
Yeah.
You made it feel like it was.
And now I'm tired.
I've been crying.
Yeah.
Welcome back everybody.
I hope you guys are enjoying our episode lately.
I know that we've had a little change in schedule, but we've had some really good comments about
that as well.
I think so.
And you guys have been so nice and just expressing your concern with us and you said, you're
happy that we're taking time for ourselves and focusing on school and work and the holiday
season.
Yeah.
But yeah, so thank you guys for continuing to support us.
Of course.
And I have heard some pretty good feedback on well, I mean, for you guys.
maybe like, you know, because it's like, I heard from a listener the other day that's
like, I am so addicted that I'm craving another episode and it's been too late. And you know,
thank you guys so much for your patience on that. They also did say though that I gave
them a chance to kind of go back and listen to maybe some ones they didn't listen closely
enough to. Yeah, exactly. Or maybe try out some mental breakdowns or some DAK lives.
So yeah, some good content to freshen up on. For sure. And if this is your first episode
listening, welcome. And you have plenty of bingeable content. Yeah. It'll be months
before you guys are like, where's the next episode? I was thinking about that trailer
we did for Jason, for Santa May be a criminal. And it has yet to air because I think he's
waiting until next season, which makes sense. Because I've been listening to it. Yeah, I
was listening yesterday. I'm so obsessed. I'm a little farther than you, I think. Or
maybe I'm at the Cardelphians right now. Maybe I'm not. I think I'm on Easter Bunny
unmasked. Have you heard that one? Oh my gosh, yeah. Okay, I'm on that one. Yeah,
E.B. Cooper. Yeah. Easter Bunny. Well, he's not Easter Bunny. I think his name is like
Edward Barker. Yeah, something hilarious. Yeah. So I was thinking about the trailer
that we did for Jason and how that's going to air. It's going to be like, catch us on
Mondays for a bunch of hours. Oh yeah. Well, it'll be better. January 1st, we're going
to start that episode. That's true. And if he does do the season throughout the holidays,
then yeah, it won't be that long. It won't be that long. We're not liars, I promise.
At the time we recorded it, we were doing two a week. That's true. But you know what?
Things change. Change is good. Change is good. I definitely want to hear your case, but first
I do want to read a DM we got from a listener in Italy recently. Is it Little Italy? I
don't think so. No, it's just Italy. Yes. This is from a listener named Alessandro.
He said that we can use his name and he said, hello. Hello. How are you doing? I hope everything's
fine. Let's get straight to the point. Thank you. I bumped into your podcast a month ago
and now I have you in my earphones every day. You might be wondering what thank you is about.
He did share a personal story about his mental health and then he said it's incredible to
see that there's people who actually care to talk about mental health. Anyways, love
the way you deliver the stories. And he kind of like, yo, like why oh? And then when I
messaged back, he's like, I accidentally sent that first message. It's not finishing it,
but I'm from Italy. Yes. Thank you for that lovely message. We love not only hearing
from people across the fucking world, but people that we know that we're truly making
an impact on. Like that's our whole goal in this. So thank you for reaching out and letting
us know because that warms our hearts to hear that from you. Absolutely. Yeah. Definitely
opens up a little bit more of a dialogue to talk about, you know, what the heart of what
we do is. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. That's okay. For sure. Today we're going to be talking
about Henry Lee Lucas. Oh yeah. Okay. A confession killer. Okay. All right. Not who I thought
you were doing. No. All right. No. My, my wrist just popped. I was like, are you okay over
there? Content morning. This episode describes scenes of child abuse, sexual abuse, psychological
abuse of a child, attempted suicide, substance and alcohol use, rape, B.C. Allity, arson,
incest, necrophilia and decapitation. If this episode is not for you, we encourage you
to check out another one of our episodes. Remember that your mental health is important
to us and we love you. Love you. Love you. Bye. Bye. I'm fucking sorry. It's a bit of
a do-say. It's just a bit much. It's a bit much. It's a bit much in it. In it. In it.
In it. In it. We love you guys. Henry Lee Lucas was born on August 23rd, 1936. So it
was the 1930s. Oh, it was actually this time. It's the 1930s. His parents were Nelly Viola
and Anderson Lucas. Nelly's cute. Nelly is a cute name. I know one Nelly. This spelled
that way. N-E-L-L-I-E. It's cute. Cute. The couple would have a total of nine children
over the course of 22 years. Opal, Elmer, Nora, Frida, Harry, Almeida, Warden, Andrew,
and then Henry was the youngest. Okay, so they name all of their kids cute-ish names
and then they name one Almond? Almeida, I think it has A-L-M-E-D-A. Or is it Almeida?
I don't know. It sounds like Almond. It sounds like Almond. I think it's Almeida. And also
Elmer. Almeida. Maybe it's funny. Elmer is cute. I like Frida. Frida, F-R-I-D-A. Yeah.
Yeah. No, F-R-E-D-A. Frida. Like Freda. Don Frida. Don Frida. Although I'm rewatching
Orange right now and I love Frida. Frida's the best. See, I haven't seen it in so long.
I don't even remember that character. Frida? She's the survivalist girl? The survivalist
lady with the octopus tattoo on her neck? Damn, Frida's awesome. Nelly was actually
48 when she had Henry. His father being just 35. Whoa. Yeah. She was literally... Especially
for the 1930s. Fuck, I missed a great opportunity to go whoa, Nelly. Whoa, Nelly. Damn it. Why
would she do this to us? It could have paused it and then like pretended like I was that
quick on it. Yeah. I would have been authentic. I'd have to fake react to you. Like, that's
hilarious. I'll see that one again. Like a horse. We're tangenting too much already
come on. Sorry. Let's go. The family was residing in Blacksburg, Virginia. Anderson once worked
for a railroad company. However, after a workplace accident, Anderson would actually lose both
of his legs. And this is not funny, but his nickname was No Legs. That's not funny. Anderson
No Legs, Lucas. Okay. Also good opportunity to say, Anderson No Legs. All Anderson No Legs.
You made a whoa Nelly joke. Okay. That's not funny. It's not funny, but what that situation
is not funny, but all Anderson No Legs. No, seriously, I'm really not trying to be a
funny person. I'm so sorry. She's crying. She's got tears coming out of her eyes. I'm
not joking. I just took probably a five minute break. I had to blow my nose. Well, yeah,
I had to get up and everything too, but I am so sorry. I could not stop laughing at the
name. It's the name. That really sucks though, the situation. It really does. Well, it just,
you know, it's interesting because we've done that one about railway, railway spine. Yeah.
Remember when they used to call it PTSD? Can you imagine the amount of PTSD you would have?
Oh, absolutely. That's terrifying. Forced to make ends meet. Anderson began to make illegal
alcohol out of the house to sell. Hmm. Can't go anywhere, really. Okay. You know, he's
probably on, I didn't even know if they had disability. No, I don't think they did. Probably
not. No, for sure. Anderson soon turned to alcohol himself and became an alcoholic. That's
so sad. He was also apparently a pencil salesman. I don't know. Look, Wikipedia is not the
best reference, but apparently he used to sell pencils. I mean, I frequently needed pencils.
Yeah. I mean, everyone needs them. I think pencils were huge. Yeah. They were huge. They were huge.
Nelly too became addicted to alcohol and would often rage at her family when under the influence,
especially taking out her rage on her husband and her sons. Oh, that's so awful. Nelly also
began participating in sex work to make extra money for the family. Nelly would also engage in
sexual acts with men in front of the children. Oh my God. Specifically Henry was made to watch.
Oh, yeah. Just made to which one of them grew up to be a murderer? Probably a lot of them,
actually. I mean, there's nine. I guess one out of nine isn't bad. That's terrible though,
because like, I don't know, I always think like when we do these, I always think of like,
if you had just not done that, if you had not done that, maybe he would have been a decent human.
Yeah, or at least sought help. Henry said about this time, quote, first thing I can remember
was my mom in bed with another man in the house and she made me watch it. I just couldn't stand
there and watch. I had to turn my back and walk out of the house. And after I did that,
she would beat me because I didn't watch. That's fucking twisted. Like, that's sick. Nelly had
expressed several times that she wanted to bring up Henry to be a pimp as she knew that it was the
easiest way to make money. And he's like a kid. He's like 10. 8 or 10. Nelly began seeing a man
she called Uncle Bernie, which is immediately sounds creepy, that does sound gross, who would
eventually move into the home and become Nelly's boyfriend, a living boyfriend. She's living with
her husband, all those children, and a living boyfriend. And Anderson just like doesn't mind
or he doesn't know what to say. Sure, he's passed out most of the time. I'm sure he doesn't. Yeah, he's drinking a lot. Yeah. Nelly
encouraged Uncle Bernie to beat the children as well, especially Henry, Henry, since their father
was disabled and the children needed a father figure. Because you can't be a father figure when you
have a disability, right? Yeah, when you have a disability. Well, he is also an alcoholic. He's
probably not, again, he's probably, that's true, not functional, functional, which is probably
another reason why, you know, Anderson's probably dealing with a lot of depression. Let's not forget
that PTSD, the drinking is probably in his mind helping those things. And yeah, he's probably like, if you
think that this guy can parent better than I can, then what's the harm? Yeah. Plus, you know, he probably
knows that she's engaged in sex work anyways. It's true. Many times the three adults in the home would be
passed out leaving the children to fend for themselves. Or more than not, Nelly would have strange men
coming and going from the one bedroom home in order to keep working. So it wasn't just people in this
one bedroom home, Jesus, in a one bedroom home. Yeah. But again, it's like, she's not going out and
doing this. She's like bringing it in the house. That's dangerous as fuck. Yeah, especially to the kids.
Nelly would beat and humiliate the children whenever she could. And Henry being the youngest took the
brunt of the abuse. Nelly was hitting Henry with various objects at any given point. And once Henry
was just eight years old, Nelly actually bloodshed Henry with a wooden plank so hard he fell into a
coma for three days. Holy shit. Yeah, that's scary. She never once sought help for Henry's injuries.
And yeah, he would just come to a few days later. Oh, she always thought he was dead. She probably did.
And imagine that fucking frontal lobe injury. Oh, yeah, absolutely. This is eight. He was eight years old.
That's terrible. Nelly would also dress up Henry and his sister's clothing in order to emasculate him at a
young age. Nelly would even send her son to school in his sister's clothing. Oh my God, I was just
about to ask, is he going to school? Yeah, this is also in public, like whenever they would go out in
public. He said about this time, quote, I hated all my life. I hated everyone. When I first grew up,
and I can remember, I was dressed up as a girl by my mother. And I stayed that way for two or three
years. And after that, I was treated like what I would call a dog of the family. I was beaten, and I was
made to do things that no human being would want to do. End quote. That brings my heart. It's really fucking
sad. And he's the youngest. Yeah, I'm sure, you know, all of the other siblings have probably gone
through very similar things. Yeah. Henry at this time tried to escape into school, and we see that
often with abused children. He didn't seem to have trouble making friends. And once he was actually
given a teddy bear by a teacher. Upon arriving home, however, Nelly took the bear from Henry and
beat him severely for bringing home the bear. What? Yeah. It's like a Lisa Montgomery story.
Remember like how the mom hit Lisa? I forgot what it was. She came home with something. I don't
remember. Or she killed the dog. She killed the family dog. Oh my God. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah,
it just, she simply doesn't want Henry to be happy at all. Yeah. It's like, how dare you bring
home something that could bring you joy. Yeah. Nelly's abuse was not limited to her children and
husband. Actually, in one instance, she shot and killed a young mule that was given to the family
by his uncle, by Henry's uncle, his actual uncle. Yeah, uncle Bernie. Not uncle Bernie. Yeah, so
she shot and killed this gift. Sad. When Henry was 10 or 11 years old, he was fighting with his
older brother and his brother would brandish a knife. His brother swatted the knife at Henry and
at some point had grazed or cut his eye. His actual eye? Henry's actual eye. Oh, hell no. Nelly
refused to take Henry to the hospital. So over the course of four days, he would get an infection.
And while at school, his eye had become so enlarged and infected that it burst at school. Shut up.
That's so gross. Should I put that in the content warning? Sorry. No, I don't think that's just
gross. It's just gross. Like picture in the head. Henry was then rushed to the hospital where he
underwent surgery and they removed his eye and fitted him for a prosthetic. I did not have you
to be a guy. That's so awful. And you could have done something to prevent that. Yeah. But you
didn't. You just didn't take him. Well, I mean, we're not really expecting much from the later
lives of a fucking coma for three days. Yeah, she left him in the coma for three days and then
not only that, but she would have to probably admit that she wasn't watching her son brandishing a knife.
That's true. Yeah. Oh my god, that's so awful. I don't know if the brother even felt bad. I
bet he hopefully he did, but probably thought it was just all in good fun. Yeah, I mean,
they're probably all being taught to like just do whatever the fuck ever. Yeah, just stay out of my
way. Imagine being in that classroom when his eyeball popped. Oh my god. Gross. I don't wish
that upon anybody. It's awful. And you're 10. You're 10 or 11. Yeah. Permanently, like you don't
have an eye for the rest of your life. I didn't realize that your eyeball could pop. Yeah, it was
just infected. Okay. And then shortly after this, Henry began to drink heavily, which isn't surprising
because his role models are these assholes. But he's 12. Yeah, he's like 10, 11, 12 somewhere in there.
He also began to act out sexually in school around his peers. Well, he's been exposed to sex
and sex. Yeah, exactly. Henry actually began to start a sexual relationship with his half
brother that lasted for some time. I'm sorry. Because that's again, that's all they're doing.
Fucking show. Yeah, I'm sure his brother was also abused. Henry was also at some point exposed to
animal abuse and bestiality. So Henry around 12, 13 would begin to capture animals, torture them,
engage in sexual acts with them, and then ultimately kill them. Oh my God. In 1949, when Henry was just
13 years old, Henry's father, Anderson, would get extremely inebriated and accidentally pass out
outside overnight. This was a particularly snowy night, a blizzard even, and Anderson would ultimately
die of exposure and hypothermia. Holy shit. That's wild. Yeah. So he just was so intoxicated.
So say, how drunk do you have to be? Very. I feel not. There's an episode of orange where that happens.
Linda's sorority, what's like the head sorority chick? The president? Oh, was it like a president?
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so the president, I guess, like, tried to like pee outside and then she got stuck
out there or something and then she died of hypothermia. Oh my God. So it's like, man, apparently that
fucking happens. Well, yeah, for sure. Overnight, I mean, some places are super fucking cold. Where is
this Virginia? This is Virginia. Yeah. So now dealing with the loss of his father, his own alcoholism,
his sexual proclivities, Henry would drop out of school and begin touring around Virginia,
stealing and robbing whenever he could. Oh my God. It's just like violence is a way of life,
because that's exactly what you're teaching your kids. Yeah. And if you want something,
you just take it. Yeah, exactly. In 1951, when he was just 14 or 15 years old, Henry would claim to
take the life of a 17 year old, Laura Everlene Burnseley. So she had apparently denied his sexual
advances. Henry claimed that he fell in love with Laura, although the last known sighting of her was
her waiting at a bus stop. Okay. Doesn't know, like, there's not a clear picture of how long they
might have known each other. Yeah. So when Henry tried to act on these feelings of either love
or sexual frustration, he actually strangled Laura and left her body near Harrisburg, Virginia. Oh my
gosh. So again, she was last seen at a bus stop in Lynchburg, Virginia. Henry later claimed that
Laura's death was a result of consensual sex that became aggressive and then went too far. Although
Henry confessed to these crimes later in 1984, saying about this crime, quote, it scares me
quite a little bit because the first girl I killed was when I was 14 years old. I wanted to try the
sex I had been watching. I got to playing too rough with her. The pressure of seeing my mom hit me
and my emotions more or less took over and I couldn't quite handle it. End quote. So he is
saying like, after all of it, he's saying like it was consensual. Maybe it wasn't for her,
but like I was trying to just be rough sex and then everything came out emotion wise and I just
like lost it. Snapped, yeah. Laura's body hasn't never been recovered. Oh man, that's a bummer.
A few years later in 1954, Henry and his half brother were arrested on burglary charges.
The two would be convicted with Henry sentenced to six years imprisonment. Henry would immediately
begin to plan an escape. Right. To which actually he was able to follow through with. Oh great.
However, just a mere three days later, Henry would be recaptured and taken into custody to carry
out the remainder of his sentencing at Virginia State Prison. Henry served five years being
released in 1959 and he immediately went to go live with his older sister Opal. Although Henry
had been corresponding with a woman by the name of Stella Harris and the two were engaged, he did
elect to stay with his sister when he got out. So yeah, he's engaged to Stella. Stella. Stella.
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Henry at this time was not interested in reconnecting with his mother. However,
Nelly had other plans for Henry. Oh my god, he's like, I want nothing to fucking do with you.
Yeah. And she's like, oh no, just let me come see you and hang out. I still need to be my pimp.
Yeah. She was able to track the siblings down and demanded that Henry move in with her in order to
take care of her. By this time, Nelly was 71 years old and told her son, due to her being incapable
of caring for herself, he was to move in at once. She also did not care for her son's fiancé,
Stella. And she made this very clear, perhaps jealousy is what I'm thinking. Oh, for sure.
Oh, you're not going to come over with me because you're engaged now. Nelly stayed with the siblings
throughout Christmas and New Year's, but by the 11th of January 1960, Henry was spiraling deep into
his thoughts of trauma and the threat of Nelly ruining his life yet again. I mean, yeah, he's
got to have some crazy PTSD like from his childhood and like, this is all bringing it back up. Yeah.
With his mom, especially being separated from her while he was in prison for about five years. Yeah.
After a day's worth of arguing back and forth, Henry picked up a broomstick and began to strike
Nelly about her body and head. Oh, shit. He then in a further fit of rage picked up a knife and began
to stab her in the neck repeatedly. He said about this quote, I was pretty well drunk when she started
arguing with me, wanting me to go back to live with her in Virginia. But I told her I didn't want
nothing to do with her. All I remember was slapping her alongside the neck. But after I did that,
I saw her fall and I decided to grab her. But she fell on the floor and when I went to go pick her
back up, I realized that she was dead. Then I noticed that I had a knife in my hand and she had been
cut end quote. The last sentence doesn't sound very accurate. Yeah, that I mean, again, it kind of
seems like, I mean, he's not saying like, I didn't do it. He's saying like, these are the details
I'm a little fuzzy on like what actually happened. Yeah, but like, I knew I had a knife. But I did it.
Yeah, exactly. That's not funny. But that's terrible. I mean, not nobody deserves that, obviously.
But I mean, it kind of seems like she was still in that role of, well, you're not going to do
anything to me. I'm your mother. Yeah. You know, and now you're looking at a grown ass fucking man
that's already served prison time. Yeah. And she's this 71 year old lady, you know, Henry then packed
a very light bag and proceeded to flee the area. Was anyone else there when that happened? No.
Opal arrived home to find her mother in a pool of blood, but apparently still alive. Oh, she called
for an ambulance and police. However, upon their arrival, Nellie was unfortunately pronounced deceased.
Henry was later found in Ohio. And when asked about the incident, he claimed that it was self
defense and gave the torrid history of the parent child relationship. The coroner later determined
that the cause of death was actually a heart attack from the assault and not the assault itself that
resulted in Nellie's death. However, when the case went to trial, Henry Lucas would be found guilty
of second degree murder and sentenced to 40 years in the Jackson State Penitentiary in Michigan.
40 years? 40 years. Oh, shit. Okay. So that's the end of the story. That's Henry Lee Lucas.
You're lying. You're totally lying. Henry would attempt suicide multiple times by slashing at
himself before being transferred to a psychiatric hospital. I think it's Ionia State Hospital.
It's also known as Michigan State Asylum. Henry here began to receive treatments such as shock
therapy, behavior therapy, and would begin taking antidepressants as well. I'm on board with the
behavior therapy and antidepressants, but shock therapy, especially with all of the brain trauma
he had experienced. You think that's all the new? In 1966, Henry was evaluated and deemed
safe to return to prison, but was also recommended for early release. So he was working closely with
a psychologist this whole time. And the psychologist was like, look, he is seriously mentally ill.
Look at his childhood. Yeah. He killed his mom after years of abuse and torture,
kind of like Gypsy Rose. He doesn't need to do 40 years. He's probably not going to be a repeat
offender because of course they didn't know about the 17 year old. Yeah. And this psychologist
probably feels like a dick today if they're alive, which it probably is. It's a long time ago.
Therefore, he was released after serving just 10 years in 1970. So he's what in his 40s now?
30s? Yeah. So he was, well, he was born in 36. So yeah, he's 34. Right? Did I do the math on that
right? I don't know. What year is it? Yeah, 36, right? Because then four would be 40 and then
30 would be 34. Cool. Within a year of his release, Henry attempted to kidnap a young girl at gunpoint.
Great. We love a wrong psychologist. Love a psychologist is wrong. No, that's hard though,
honestly. Yeah, they're doing the best that they possibly can, especially with the information that
they know in the 60s. For sure. Yes, this is thankfully unsuccessful and Henry would be sentenced
to another three years of imprisonment for the attempted kidnapping. This time he needs to stay
in. Three years is way too short for that. That's way too short. While in prison, Henry's cousin
would actually pass away and his cousin's widow, Betty Crawford, would begin to write Henry in prison.
They corresponded over the years and when Henry was released in 1975, the two would quickly
move to Maryland with Betty and her two daughters. Oh my gosh. But they would also quickly marry.
By the end of the year, the new family would move to Pennsylvania
and Henry would begin working on a mushroom farm. Oh, I kind of like that. I know, right? Could you
imagine working in a mushroom farm? It's so cute. So how do you know which ones to grow though?
So cottage quark. You might die if you eat this one, but you might have a really great time
if you eat this one. Oh, they probably know. They're probably, I don't know. Imagine the
first people that founded that mushroom. So like this one makes you feel like you're going to fall
off the earth. Right. This one makes you actually leave the earth. Was it Andre Cicatillo, where
that couple were going into the woods to pick mushrooms? Yeah. It's so cute. Yeah, I did hear
that. I did remember that. That would be a really cute date. Go to a mushroom farm. I like that.
Anyways, the marriage to Betty would be a short one just after one year.
Betty's daughter had come to her claiming that Henry had been molesting and raping her for
quite some time. What was he taught his whole life? I know, right? As a dude for your family.
When I was reading this and I was like, oh my god, he married this woman with children.
Like there's no way he's not going to abuse these children. Like, it's awful.
It was actually Henry who would end up leaving the situation, not Betty, which I found disturbing.
She knew the information and she approached him. I was like, this is what my daughter's saying about
you. And he was like, nope, never happened. Bye. Like, and just did instead of her being like,
I heard this about you. I'm leaving you. Yeah. Henry went back to stealing and robbing to support
himself while traveling through the United States. He would end up in Jacksonville, Florida,
where he would meet a man by the name of Otis Tool. Otis was also highly abused as a child.
Parallels between the two included being raised by alcoholics. His father would also dress him
up in dresses and call him Susan. What? He too had engaged in ancestral relationships with a family
member. Oh my gosh. And Otis was very violent from a young age. Yeah. Otis was also intellectually
disabled with a low IQ and experienced grand mal seizures from a very young age. Dang. So he
probably has some brain damage. Otis said that he could never remember a time where he didn't find
fires sexually arousing. Okay. Right. Well, it's again McDonald, right? Well, yeah, but the fire
thing is one thing. And then the, I feel like you don't really hear about like fires being
sexually arousing. I think it's just like exciting, like mentally. I don't know. Well, that's like,
that's what I've heard as far as like arsonist go, like arsonists find the fire attractive somehow.
Oh, even that. I don't, I'd never heard that before. Yeah. Interesting. In his teen and early
adult years, Otis began to cross dress and this too sexually aroused him. Unable to function in
society and keep a job either by unattended mental illnesses or disabilities, Otis began
engaging in sex work himself and looting to support himself. It was after that he began working in a
soup kitchen that he would meet Henry Lee Lucas. The two immediately struck up a friendship and
quickly began a sexual relationship. By all accounts, the relationship seemed to flourish.
And at the time of their meeting, Otis was actually living with his family and this included
his 11 year old niece, who was also intellectually disabled. Oh, no. Henry became very close to
Otis's niece. Her name was Becky. And he was almost like a second uncle to her, not an uncle, Bernie.
Did he molester? The two settled in together and Otis's family home and both began working for a
roofing company and making decent money, at least enough to stabilize the two. All was quiet for
some time. However, in January, 1982, Otis barricaded a 65 year old man by the name of George
Sonnenberg in a boarding house and lit the home on fire. What the fuck? Yeah, he just like barricaded
this dude in there and then lit the house on fire. Like, I know that's not random, but like it seems
random like in this time. Like he's kind of been like, like kind of low and slow for a long time,
like kind of under the radar. I think it's mostly like the way that I wrote it is like,
it definitely seemed to the outside that these two guys are doing well together. They're living
together. They're providing for this niece, you know, it just kind of like their child in a way.
So it's, yeah, it's like they kind of, again, they kind of look like this happy couple together.
Yeah. And yes, they're both career criminals, but maybe they're turning their life around.
And then Otis just is like, I'm gonna light this man's house on fire. I wonder what the motive
behind that was like, obviously the arson itself, like that's, you know, his thing. Right. But the
man, yeah, you know, George would ultimately succumb to his injuries as well. And so off. Yeah.
And he would be arrested for murder. Otis. Yeah. Would be arrested for it. So while Otis was dealing
with all of this legal, this little legal snafu here, you know, just a little hiccup. Yeah.
Henry decides to take off with 15 year old Becky after learning that Child Protective Services
were looking to remove Becky from the home. Well, yeah, that's not his fucking child. Or
it's not his child. Yeah, exactly. Possibly unbeknownst to Otis, Henry was actually involved
in sexually abusing Becky for a number of years. I figured so. I'm so awful.
And Henry eventually would claim at this point that he was in love with Becky. He was obviously
grooming her. Yeah. Like for sure. And she's, unfortunately, she is old enough at this point to
maybe not think that he's doing anything wrong. That's true. Well, she's also intellectually
disabled as well. Yeah. So I don't, I didn't seek it out. I didn't see what her IQ was. I know that
Otis is, I think was, I get a 75. Okay. So the two were on the run for a few weeks until they
settled in California. After Henry began work, a fellow employee had expressed their concern
about their elderly mother living alone when Henry expressed that him and his wife were looking for
permanent residency. Oh my gosh. He's like, yeah, I'm also 15 years old, not 15. I'm also
like more than twice her age older than her. Yeah. Yeah. Like some people thought that she was his
wife because that's what he said. But I'm sure other people probably thought that he was her dad.
Yeah. Which is gross. Gross. So this fellow employee agreed to the arrangement. The couple
were to live in the home to provide care to 82 year old Kate Rich. And while living with Kate,
you know, they're, they're going to provide care to her. I can tell you what's going to happen.
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. While living with Kate, her family noticed that her money was being
spent at an alarming rate. And the couple were then asked to leave the home. Oh, so they were just
like, you got to get out of here. Something's fishy. I was half right. Becky distraught over the loss
of a roof over her head insisted Henry find this a solution for the two of them. So he suggested
that the two traveled to Florida, which I guess Becky had family there. So at some undetermined
amount of time, Becky mysteriously went missing. Oh, seemingly heartbroken that he couldn't find
his wife. Henry returned to the home of Kate Rich in order to plead with her to help in the search
for Becky. I'm sorry. She kicked you out because you were stealing from her. And now you want
her to help you. Kate had become close with Becky in the time that she stayed with Kate. So
Kate agreed to help him find Becky and Henry knew that in June 1982. Henry was picked up on
weapons charges. However, he was alone at this point. So last known sighting of Kate Rich was
with Henry. And when he was arrested, he was alone. Jesus. Once in police custody, Henry began to tell
a story that would shock the general public. No. Henry claimed that he did in fact kill Becky.
That while the two were headed to Florida, he stopped in a field, stabbed Becky to death,
and then engaged in necrophilic acts after Becky was deceased. He dismembered her and scattered
her remains throughout the field. He admitted that when he went back to the Rich residence,
it was with the intent to lure Kate to her death as well. Oh my god. He took Kate Rich to a camp
ground where he then stabbed her to death, had sex with her lifeless body, and dumped her in a
drainage pipe. Oh my god. How brutal. He would claim that he would go back to this drainage pipe
regularly in order to engage in further necrophilic acts. All right, Bundy. This was shocking enough
to investigators as they hadn't picked Henry up for murders. Yeah. They're picking him for a
double homicide. That's not funny, but it's like, yeah, we have you on weapons charges. He's like,
yeah, by the way, I'm like a serial killer. By the way. Yeah. But this is not all. Oh no. A few
days later, he wrote to the sheriff, quote, I have killed for the past 10 years and no one will
believe me and I cannot do this. Can't do what? Can't go on doing this. End quote. Henry claimed
that between 1978 and 1981, while him and Otis the two were together, the two had committed
over 100 murders together during their lull. Oh my gosh. He said it in an interview, quote,
I killed him every way there is except poison. There's been strangulations. There's been
knifeings. There's been shootings. There's been hit and runs. I don't have any emotions. I had no
feeling for the people themselves or any of my crimes. I'd pick them up hitchhiking, running,
and playing stuff like that. We'd get going and have a good time. First thing you know,
I'd kill her and throw her out somewhere. I don't know how to really explain why I kept on.
It was just like I say as though I left my body and just as though the more you look at them as
though that person wasn't dead and you just keep stabbing them and imagining that person's not dying.
End quote. Geez. So he like completely dissociated like himself out of what was actually happening.
Many of the people described by Lucas were in fact very similar to more than a few
unsolved cases in multiple states. Lucas would continue to confess over the course of a year
and he was regularly interviewed and seemingly his knowledge of details of these crimes were
something that only investigators knew. Eventually Lucas confessed to over 200 killings,
but one major thing was missing. Any evidence of not only him being connected to actual missing
persons, but any evidence that some of these people were even missing in the first place.
Hmm. Sometimes he would confess to kidnapping in areas where no one was reported missing
and in at least one instance he confessed to killing someone that had previously been ruled
by a suicide or that it was a suicide. Yeah. Henry claims started to become unreal. At one
point he claimed that he provided the poisoning used in the Jonestown mass suicides. He just said
he's never killed anyone by poisoning. Yeah. So what is it? Well this is probably different
interviews because he was regularly interviewed. Yeah. So which one is it though? He also
claimed that he killed Jimmy Hoffa who disappeared in 1975 and has never been found.
Doubtful. Right. Slowly one by one some of Henry Lee Lucas's confessions began to follow apart,
especially when technology began to advance in DNA testing. He's like,
shit didn't see that one coming. Yeah. It's like Golden State. Fuck.
An entire task force was formed in order to determine which of Lucas's claims were in fact
true. Oh my god. So much wasted energy and resources and money and people's time. This took
mountains of time and effort on the part of the police and in the end there were only 11 confirmed
deaths of Lucas that he would be tried for over time. I think that he probably figured like,
fuck it, like I'm going to prison for the rest of my life anyway. Might as well just like make
myself super prolific. Yeah. You know, super infamous. Claim all these highest numbers. Yeah.
Claim all these other murders and all these other murderers can like walk the street. Yeah. It was
also determined at another point that he had had access to the prison because he was constantly going
in and out of interviews and talking to police and it was like he was like profiled by FBI agents
for that, you know, that whole thing where they would they can determine a profile. So he participated
in that like all this stuff. So he got a lot of privileges and they had determined that he was going
down into evidence rooms or getting a hold of files and were reading up on these missing people's
cases. So he knew details about stuff that when he probably didn't do it. When he didn't do it.
Yeah. Yeah. He would just claim or he would listen to like other people's accounts of stories and
just make up his own. Oh gosh. He was originally sentenced to death but his sentence was commuted
to life imprisonment by George W. Bush in 1998. Henry Lucas would die of a heart attack in prison
in 2001 at age 64 years of age. I said age twice. But that's just ironic because his mom died of a
heart attack too even though he stabbed her but still right at 64. That's wild. As for Otis Tull,
the man would be convicted for six deaths of his own including the arson case that claimed the life
of George Sonnenberg. He was also suspected of killing Adam Walsh. Do you know who Adam Walsh is?
I don't think so. He's the son of the victim advocate in America's most wanted host, John Walsh.
Yes, I know who that is. Yeah. So anytime anybody here is in code Adam, that's code like we used to
have it at a grocery store I used to work at where if someone calls a code Adam you lock the doors
no in and out until the child is located. Yeah. Yes, Adam Walsh is the son of John Walsh and Adam
was taken from a department store while shopping with his mother. His decapitated head was later
found a few days later. I think it was like four days later. The rest of his remains were never
recovered. Otis Tull was known to decapitate his other victims some of whom were young boys.
Tull did confess to the murder and told the cops how he did it but then later recanted.
He's like, oh I did that. This is all the details. He's like had a written confession and then was
like, oh no wait no I was all just a lie. Which recanting was like Henry Lucas' thing. He was
like, oh yeah you're right I didn't do that my bad. Just to be like a fucking troll. Although this
has been a long-standing suspicion it has yet to be confirmed forensically that Tull was
Adam's murderer. Another possible suspect for the Adam Walsh murder is actually Jeffrey Dahmer.
Really? Yes. Although this too was never confirmed. Interesting. Tull would die in prison due to
cirrhosis of the liver at 49 years old. Not even the alcoholic. Yeah, he was three
alcoholics in this story and none of them died from cirrhosis except for it. Except for it.
Damn. Yeah, that is the case of Henry Lee Lucas. There is a documentary that is on Netflix called
The Confession Killer. That goes into all of the details of the victims of the crimes, the toll
that it took on the families that they thought that these murders were being solved and they weren't.
That's so awful. He was just using up these resources. It goes through his trial process,
all that stuff. So very interesting stuff. Tons more information out there for sure but I did
want to focus just solely on his early childhood and those contributing factors versus... I mean,
there's no secret, there's no question why he did what he did with all of the things that he
went through as a child. The psychological abuse, the psychological torture if anything,
you know, the physical abuse, the coma, all that. That obviously takes a toll on someone's
fucking mental health and it ruined him as a person, I think. Yeah, I agree with that and I
definitely think that just given the amount of instances that he was physically harmed to the
point of needing medical attention and didn't receive it, in fact was made to suffer longer
through that, I think really took away a lot of that empathy he possibly could have had for other
people because he went through physical pain that way. He's like, I want to do this so I can't
hurt other people. Yeah, he's probably, you know, was able to, I can never say this word and that
clip was... Compartmentalized. Yes, thank you. I can never say that word that he had to do that
and put his pain away and, you know, it was kind of like mind over matter and how easy after repetition
of that being repeated over and over and over and over and over again, how easy it must have been
for him to just check out, you know? Yeah, I think so. So yeah, interesting case. Well, good case.
Thanks for bringing that. Thank you guys for joining us today. Yeah. Do you have anything else?
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