Hello! Hello!
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnostia Killer. I'm Koelle and I'm kinda... oh my gosh!
Oh, shit's already happening again! I feel like the last three episodes.
It's just that time of year, you know? It is. You get sick all the time. The weather's changing so much.
Especially down here. It's like we get rain. We get rain to sunshine. Freakin' humidity fog all on the same day.
It's just we've been struggling, I think.
I took a test yesterday. I talked to Franklin Frankie today. She said that she's dealing with a cold.
You were dealing with a cold. Have been dealing with a cold. My son was dealing with a bunch of stuff too.
Poor kid. He just wasn't well for an entire week and a half. Just a lot.
It's just awful. I was telling you guys yesterday that I went to work and I have a giant cold sore on my lip, which I get every time I get sick.
But mine get really bad. So it looks like I have a busted lip. I scratched myself in the face somehow when I was sleeping.
So I have a scratch next to my eye. And then I'm also sick. So I literally look like I just got in a bar fight the night before.
I look hungover and beat up. Which is not atypical. I mean, I've been in a few.
No, no. What are the violent people? That ain't me. No, that ain't me.
Well, hello everybody. Welcome back.
Really quickly, our handles are at diagnosing a killer at any social media platform other than X, which is at killer diagnosis.
You guys have been so sweet to email us regularly right now. And it's just, I know it's because of our little hiatus.
It's adorbs. It's really adorbs. And also just to mention before I do get into some of these DMs and emails, we have a new little thing that we decided to do because of our good friend, Edlison or Lisa.
She made us these really, really cute friendship bracelets. So we decided to make our own friendship bracelets at the request of you guys.
I think they're like what, $5 a piece? And the order form is on our link tree. If you want to personalize one, we'll be happy to make that to you and send it.
We have a bunch of different colors, a bunch of different phrases and stuff that you can choose from.
Yeah, just give us kind of a base idea of what you might be looking for or a catchphrase and we will customize one for you.
Absolutely. It'll be unique to you, friend.
Yeah, so super quickly, I just want to mention a couple of comments that we've gotten.
We've gotten an email and one DM from some very lovely people. So the Instagram DM is from Steph and she said,
You too just made my life. First off, I love True Crime and just started following and listening to you guys since the follow request.
I love your voices already, LOL, and how you tell the stories. Thank you for the follow and you have a whole new fan.
I'm listening to you guys literally all day. I will most definitely be telling my fellow True Crime friends about you guys.
Thanks, Steph.
I know, it was really nice.
It was really nice.
I always say that I just spawned, but I really appreciate it. It's nice to find a new follower and I was telling her.
I'm like, you know, sometimes we follow people that follow similar accounts because there's a lot of True Crime podcasts out there and it's hard to find a new one.
Yeah.
So putting our name out there that way helps us gain listeners that would have otherwise loved us if they had the chance to find us.
Yeah. I think that especially after the convention, the festival, I think we really did come to an understanding that this is a community of us.
This is a community of people and nobody's trying to steal listeners. Everybody's trying to grow listeners.
Right?
Absolutely.
It's a lot of fun. I don't feel like it's super competitive.
Yeah. I completely agree. So thanks for that lovely message, Steph.
And we hope that you get excited when you hear your name on the episode because you've been listening to us.
Lastly, we do have an email from a Joanna and Joanna was one of our listeners that kind of noticed that we were on a little bit of a hiatus.
I was telling Quelle that, well, we haven't even talked about it yet.
What we're doing moving forward. We're just talking about it over here.
We're doing it.
Let's talk about that.
Go ahead and talk about it and then I'll read the email.
So I'm sure everyone is aware or has noticed that we have cut back down on our posts per week.
We were doing mental breakdown Mondays and then bringing you a case on Thursdays.
So twice a week. And then you also have those bonus Patreon episodes released on the 29th of every month.
With that being said, given that Kenna is in her master's program right now and I've been accepted to St. Mary's University starting in the spring.
And I am currently also in school right now as well.
Just with that, we've been very, very busy.
We're also trying to bring you newer, deeper content like we now have a YouTube channel if nobody's seen.
Follow us on YouTube.
So moving forward, we have decided throughout the holiday season to give you guys a little bit of a break and us a little bit of a break.
Mental health is very important to all of us and all of us as a community as well.
That we are going to be posting interesting topics for our mental breakdown on our Instagram account.
That'll be every Monday and there are really cool articles that Kenna and I have read.
And we're just like, this is such a neat idea. This isn't something that we've ever thought about before.
Something we've never heard of.
So we'll bring you that content so that you guys can, you know, have something to read or read up on a different article.
It's not going to be an article that we've created, but it'll be things like Psychology Today, very renowned articles and things like that.
Scholarly articles and stuff.
So that's good content every Monday.
And then we're doing every other Thursday for our cases.
And then we're still going to bring you that Patreon exclusive on the 29th every month.
Yeah, the Patreon episodes aren't going anywhere.
The reason mostly being for the every other case on Thursday is because we have a lot of really great content out right now.
And we really want to emphasize the content that we have.
And I think this is the perfect time to do that because again, holiday season, we're both very busy with school.
You guys are also very busy. It's not just us. It's the listeners.
You know, we don't want to overwhelm anyone with content, you guys or ourselves.
And we do want to be able to get our listen count up, maybe build up following more following.
And then by the time the new year comes, we have all this exciting stuff to release.
Absolutely. And yes, we will be continuously writing in the background,
but that deadline doesn't have to be so harsh.
And Ken and I have both been, like I said earlier in the episode, on and off sick.
And I think some of it might have to do with the fact that we're just highly stressed right now.
Oh, absolutely. And with the con, you know, we said this on the episode.
We told so many people, yeah, we do two episodes a week and everyone looked at us like we just invented fire.
They were like, what? How? Like, how are you doing that on top of full-time jobs,
on top of being a parent, on top of school? It's a lot of work.
Yeah.
And we need to make sure that we are focusing on our mental health so that we can give you guys the best content.
For sure. Yeah. We don't want any more of this kind of feeling like we have to postpone certain things
because we're not feeling well. And again, I'm a total believer in like mind, body follows mind, you know?
And so when mentally we're not really taking care of ourselves, I believe that your immunity is going down.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I feel like you're just more susceptible to not feeling well either mentally or physically.
So we really appreciate you guys and your understanding in that and we're still going to bring you content.
And again, we're going to be doing writing in the background that way come the new year.
We're going to hit it hard and we're really excited, but we won't be so overwhelmed because we'll have things in advance.
Exactly. We will, absolutely.
So keep sending in your recommendations, guys, and thank you so much for the listeners that are listening today.
I know that we had some people reach out to us that said, look, I haven't seen content being posted.
Are you guys okay? So really, like, thank you guys for because we didn't think anyone was going to notice.
Like nobody's going to notice. We were like, no one listens to us.
Just Louis.
And that is also the reason if this is your first time listening for the long intro, usually we do not talk this much in the beginning of an episode,
but we had a lot to say because we haven't been here for a couple of weeks.
Yeah. Yeah.
So just the very last thing I am going to read this email from Joanna and then we will get into this case.
So Joanna says, hello.
Firstly, I love the show.
I've been listening since I discovered it several months ago and I've already listened to every episode.
That's impressive.
She said, I almost emailed you last week because I haven't gotten a new episode since September 11th and I wanted to check in to make sure everything is okay with you all.
I'm also a motherhead type that way, LOL.
Today, I finally checked Instagram.
I'm not on that too much.
It looks like there have been episodes since September 11th.
Do you know if there's a reason I would not get them on Spotify?
Thank you for all you do.
I tell everyone about your podcast, Love You Bye.
So that was really sweet.
And we did a little back and forth emailing because we were super excited that we got reached out to you by someone that we don't know.
And they were checking on us, which is really great.
I was like, do you want a free bracelet?
I'm giving you free bracelets.
Oh, cool.
And also shout out to Joanna because she noticed that we had told her that we were taking some time off, kind of explained it.
She was actually the first to know.
She was the first listener to know about this.
She was the first listener to know.
And we explained it and she responded saying, you know, I was really hoping that you guys were taking some time off to focus on yourselves.
And that was really awesome because like, we're just friends.
Like everyone's just a friend here.
So that's so great.
And also shout out to Joanna once again because she did join the Patreon and that's our newest Patreon member.
So thank you very much for that.
And I know that she was eager to hear those bonus episodes as well.
She got a triple shout out.
She did.
Thanks Joanna.
Okay.
All right.
I think that's all of our business.
You think so?
I think.
I'll probably think of something later.
There's probably something else to discuss.
I'm excited for your Patreon episode.
Oh yeah.
Well, I'll announce it at the end of this episode.
Even though it's kind of like late because it's coming out a day, I think a day after this comes out.
Yeah.
But still.
We're gonna do it.
We usually do that a week in advance.
We do, but we wouldn't.
But we do.
But I am just as excited as the listeners.
I'm assuming to hear what you have because it has been a couple weeks since I've heard a story too.
Well, we usually post on the Instagram a week before.
You know, it's been stressful.
Just go ahead.
It's been stressful.
Just shut up.
Get on with it.
Thank you.
Today we are gonna talk about Lisa Montgomery.
Okay.
All right.
I feel like I always go, okay.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I know sometimes when you do that, I think I know this person.
I have to know this person.
And then halfway through, I'm like, I think I know this person.
But then at the end, I'm like, I didn't know that person.
I didn't know that person.
I didn't know that case at all.
Content warning.
This episode depicts descriptions of sexual assault, rape, animal abuse, alcohol and drug
use, and emotional and mental abuse of a hands-on parent and a spouse.
If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to check out any one of our other episodes.
Remember that you're mental health comes first and we love you.
Love you.
Bye.
So Lisa Montgomery was born on February 27, 1968 in Melbourne, Kansas.
Lisa's mother, Judy, I think it's...
Shanessy?
Shaughnessy?
O'Shaughnessy.
Like Hennessy, yeah.
O'Shaughnessy.
Principal O'Shaughnessy?
Shanessy.
Yeah, I think it's Shanessy.
Either way, she was 20 when Lisa was born.
Her father was 25-year-old John Patterson, who was in the military, and had a history
of alcoholism.
Unfortunately, Lisa's mother had also begun struggling with alcohol use for some time
before Lisa was conceived, and Judy would continue to drink while pregnant with Lisa.
Lisa would be born with permanent brain damage and diagnose the fetal alcohol syndrome as
a result.
Oh my god.
Already not off to a good start.
A horrific start.
Already not to a good start.
Like coming into this world, and you have no, obviously, no fucking say in this, you're
coming into this world like addicted, essentially.
That's so awful.
From my get-go, things were not okay in the household, like we just said.
Lisa's sister, Diane, who was four years older and John's from a previous relationship,
would describe the household as something like a torture house.
Oh my god.
She said that from an early age, as long as she can remember, Judy would beat the girls
with whatever was close to her at the time of her frequent outbursts.
What's going on with Judy?
The mother?
Yeah, she's just an alcoholic.
She's an alcoholic.
Oh, not just an alcoholic.
She's just an alcoholic.
Geez, like a raging alcoholic.
Just from the get.
And I tried to look up, you know, of course, more stuff about Judy.
We always wanted to try to give you guys the best amount of content, but I looked up, I
think her father was also an alcoholic and an abuser as well.
What do we always say the abuse cycle continues?
Yep.
It was said that some of Lisa's first words were quote, don't spank me, mommy, end quote.
Oh my god.
Ugh, I just got heaved.
Oh, that's awful.
Her first words.
That is so awful.
As well as physical abuse the girls experienced, Diane would recall that oftentimes Judy would
strip her naked Diane and force her to stay outside in the coals while locking the door
behind her.
This is the other child?
Yeah, John's from a previous relationship and she's, I don't know what age she is at
this point, but somewhere between four and eight, I think, I want to say.
Judy would say things to Diane while she was outside about how her biological mom abandoned
her and that she wasn't wanted by either household.
So she's out in the cold nude and this is by neighbors' accounts.
Neighbors saw this happen often.
And what do the neighbors do?
Called the cops.
The cops didn't do anything?
No.
Oh, interesting.
Judy would tape Lisa's mouth shut even as a toddler.
At an early age, Lisa learned not to cry in order to regulate her breathing and concentrate
on her emotions in order to not hyperventilate.
Because as like a toddler.
As like a toddler.
She was probably like, I don't even want to say how early this started because I'm not
really sure, but yeah, it was a regular occurrence.
That is.
And she was a little baby.
I mean, there's no other way to put it.
That's fucking horrible.
Like neglect and abuse.
And abuse.
So yeah, when Judy would put the tape over Lisa's mouth, she would like when she'd start
crying, she would have to control her breathing because her nose would get stopped up like
full of snot and she wouldn't be able to breathe.
So she had to like learn to like if she was started to cry that that tape came out, she
had to stop crying.
Like you're teaching your child to push their emotions down.
Oh yeah, like obviously we know why her name is the name of the episode.
Yeah.
But it's so fucked up.
Judy would often force the girls to eat raw onions for punishment, especially since Diane
hated onions.
Like one time Diane was like, I hate onions.
And ever since then, Judy would force feed them onions.
She's like, let's just use this.
Do you think that Judy like really didn't want kids and that's why she drinks so much
when she was pregnant?
Maybe.
I think that.
I don't know.
I feel like it gets so much worse.
Okay, just keep going.
It gets so much worse.
I think that Judy probably self-medicated with alcohol quite often and I think it probably
got to a point to where her bringing was damaged because again, she doesn't like really fucking
horrific shit.
Judy also would use cold showers in the winter as a form of punishment as well because the
house would get really cold.
It wasn't very well insulated.
John was often in and out of the house as the couple would often engage in physical
fights in front of the two girls.
On one occasion in an effort to keep the girls from harm and seemingly had had enough of
Judy's shit, John took the children but would eventually come back and I'm not entirely
sure why.
Maybe out of fear of prosecution or guilt from keeping the kids from their mother's
mother.
She's not a mother.
However, John himself would eventually leave shortly after dropping the girls off for the
Vietnam War but I'm pretty sure he enlisted on purpose is my opinion.
So let me just get myself fucking out of here and just leave the kids with the mom.
We've got a woman who's clearly abusing them.
Shortly after John left, Judy began to date various men.
Diane and Lisa shared a bedroom and their beds were pretty close together as they kind
of had like a two twin beds and like a very small room.
And by the time that Lisa was four and Diane was eight, one of Judy's boyfriends began regularly
raping Diane at night while Lisa watched.
Oh my god, at eight years old.
Thankfully someone did contact Child Protective Services after some time and Diane would be
removed from the home however Lisa was left behind.
Oh, they're not raping her.
She just had to watch.
So she's fine.
She's fine.
Yeah.
What the fuck?
Like nobody's going to victimize her.
If they were, they would have done it already.
I'm clear whether or not this man was arrested for that by the way.
Oh my god, it's fucking annoying.
So again, Lisa was now left alone to be further victimized by Judy and the slew of men that
she was dating.
By age 11, Judy remarried a man by the name of Jack Kleiner.
Jack Kleiner had already fathered many children and would eventually have eight in total with
various different women.
Jesus.
And was described as a mean drunk, just to say the least, because again it gets worse.
Jack would begin to sexually assault Lisa quickly after living in the home and would
also allow his friends to come over to sexually assault the young girl.
Why do people fucking do that?
That's so weird.
Why do we've heard that so many times?
Weird, it's disgusting.
Sorry, it's weird.
That's really, that's a bit odd.
So odd.
Why?
Like, I don't understand that.
Like, how many fucked up people are there in the world that they're like, oh yeah, come
over and sexually assault my daughter that I've been doing that for years and they're
not like, no.
Yeah.
They're like, oh this one's like a fun time.
That sounds like a fun time.
I'll bring the beer.
Like, ew.
So again, yeah, Judy, I mean, Lisa is 11 at this point.
So once Judy found this out that her husband Jack was sexually assaulting her daughter,
Judy actually held her own daughter at gunpoint calling Lisa a slut and blamed Lisa for coming
under her husband.
Oh my god.
She's like 11 and 12 at this point.
Yeah.
I have literally no words.
However, Judy would eventually begin to charge men to rape Lisa and would tell Lisa that
it's her way of helping out with the bills.
Oh my god.
That's disgusting.
Oh my god.
Sometimes Judy would pay handymen who would work on the house by allowing them to rape
Lisa for housework, like re-roofing and shit.
Again, plumbing.
How are you finding all of these people that are willing to fucking do this?
They're just disgusting.
And this is what I'm saying, like this is such a horrific case and nobody did anything.
There were so many people that had an opportunity to say, no, I'm not going to rape your fucking
daughter.
No, I'm not going to do that.
In fact, I'm going to fucking report you because it's disgusting.
Yeah.
What the fuck?
Oftentimes these assaults would include beating, raping, and even urinating on the girl.
That's fucking horrible.
A lot of these beatings resulted in many instances of brain injuries and trauma as well.
Oh my god.
Because it was so severe.
I mean, she's little too.
She's little.
She already has brain damage from when she was born.
Yeah.
It's like this is such a frequent occurrence that Jack actually built a shed on the property
with the express purpose of raping and beating Lisa and allowing other men to as well.
Jack and Judy would go on to have Lisa's brother, Teddy, who also remembers the hostile
household.
He later recounted in court that Judy in a rage had actually beaten and killed the family
dog in front of the children with a shovel.
Although he couldn't really recount why Judy did this other than he believed that it was
a fear tactic to control the children.
Let me just kill the dog.
This dog that has nothing to do with anything.
There's nothing to do with anything.
It doesn't even understand what the fuck's happening.
It's not like Teddy said, oh I remember the dog pissing and peeing everywhere, which probably
was because, I mean, let's be honest, what kind of a household are we talking about here?
That's true, but it's not an excuse.
She clearly doesn't give a shit about her kids, so why is she gonna care about a dog?
Really Teddy had said something about his mother always wanting to crush any bit of
happiness her children possibly could have had, and that's what he accredits that to.
That the dog was a good dog and an escape for the children, and she was, I guess, losing
control over the kids, so she decided to kill the dog in front of them.
This Judy should have gotten treatment.
She's the worst Judy.
Have you ever heard of best Judy?
It's like a RuPaul thing where RuPaul Charles says, like, your best Judy.
I think it's in reference to Judy Garland.
Mom and Dad clean out the closet, so I don't know if it's echoey in here.
Yeah, it's like nothing else in here.
I know we're gonna have to put sound pads.
Yeah, but she's the worst Judy.
That is absolutely horrendous, and I'm, the listeners probably like, yeah, can we get
it at twirlbooks?
It is disgusting.
But no, I don't have nothing else to say about that.
Jack was notorious in the neighborhood as a pervert and pedophile.
This is the new dad.
The new husband.
The new dad.
Oh yeah, the dad.
I'm sorry, not a dad.
The new piece of shit that's living in there.
Dad of Teddy and Diane's gone, like child protective services.
So it's Lisa and Teddy, yeah.
But Jack, well, Jack already has eight total kids or some shit.
He's fertile myrtle over here.
Disgusting.
That's disgusting.
I wanted to say that earlier, but it wasn't fertile.
I was gonna fit the context, but now it did.
Neighbors across the street would file complaints against Jack, who would often wake up early
on Sunday mornings, head to the front yard, and masturbate as the family would pile it
into their vehicle in order to head to church.
You just be whacking it in the front yard with a robe on.
Come again.
Boomch.
Ew, wait, why?
They had young children, I guess.
He was notorious for being a pedophile.
His family wasn't going to church.
No, no, no.
I thought you were saying that he would walk out with his family while they were all gonna
get the car, and he would jack it to his family.
Well, gross.
I mean, he would.
No, he would wake up early on Sunday mornings to watch the neighbors across the street get
into their van and go to church.
He would whack it in the front yard.
And he'd be beating off in the front yard, watching them go just to be gross.
Well, not just to be gross, but I'm sure he got off on the kids.
There are much better ways to spend your Sunday morning.
Like sleeping in.
Like sleeping in, exactly.
Instead of being a fucking pedo.
Pedo and a pervert.
The police did nothing about these incidents, even after multiple phone calls about Jack's
behavior.
That's, well, remember we talked about, well, he's on his property, so.
You know, kind of shit.
Paraphilic disorders.
I'm not laughing about that.
Cross, cross, cross.
Cross her eyes.
The episode we did on paraphilic disorders, one of the disorders is whacking it to someone
that's give the excitement of someone seeing it.
Yeah, that's true.
And that's probably what this guy fucking has.
Probably.
Or one of the many fucking things that this guy has.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
This guy's awful.
Even Lisa's cousin, who was in law enforcement knew of the assaults and sexually driven
offenses, but chose not to say anything or do anything.
Do you think that he also assaults at her though?
And that's why?
I don't know.
I, from all accounts, it seems like he was like a kind of standup dude.
Jack?
No, not Jack.
The cousin, this is Lisa's cousin, who was in law enforcement, knew of her being abused
and didn't say anything.
I thought, I thought that Lisa's cousin was a female.
That's why I said that.
Do you think that the cousin didn't say anything because the cousin was sexually abused?
But if the cousin is male, I mean, that doesn't mean that he couldn't have also been a victim.
That's true.
It's like, Teddy is not being sexually assaulted and Lisa is.
Well, yeah, Teddy never came out and expressly said that, but clearly there's opportunities
for physical abuse and stuff like that as well.
For sure, absolutely.
But no, that cousin should have definitely said something.
Lisa also became addicted to cocaine at a young age, likely to deal with the abuse,
and honestly it was probably given to her by the men that assaulted her.
Oh, of course.
To keep her numb.
Yeah, here, take this.
Judy would use Jack for everything that he was worth, which, you know, probably wasn't
a lot.
When she realized that Jack was becoming broke, she decided to file for divorce from Jack
and charge him with the assault and rape of her daughter, Lisa.
Like she's like, oh, I took all your money, you don't have a lot of money, so I'm gonna
sue you.
Essentially, I'm gonna take you to court so that you have to pay some kind of a payout
or some shit.
I feel like this Jack-a-guy would be the kind of person that's like, oh, I've been assaulting
and raping her daughter for years and she hasn't said anything, so you should charge
her too.
Yeah.
I'm already going down for fucking assault and rape.
Might as well just like take her down too, you know?
Yeah, the shed was her idea.
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Judy testified against Jack and although many in the court proceedings consider Judy to
be cold and uncaring, ultimately Lisa protected her assailant, Jack, by lying to the court
about the abuse.
But she was petrified.
Yeah.
Like, I bet she was so fucking scared.
They probably all threatened her life.
All the men from the group.
She did probably think like, I don't know, you know?
I mean, there's that, yeah.
She probably thought that she was doing what was right for Jack, which is gross.
Like, this is what everyone goes through.
And this is just how life is.
It's probably what she was thinking.
Lisa was to be enrolled into counseling after this event, but was eventually encouraged
to leave the sessions after some time by her own mother.
Of course.
Because she didn't want the fucking truth coming out.
Yeah, exactly.
Jack was never charged with abuse or rape, although the divorce was granted and the two
would split.
So she's getting what she wants yet again?
Yeah.
Cool.
She probably gets alimony or some shit too.
Once she had three kids, now she has two.
After this time, Lisa began looking for ways to escape her mother, and by the time she
turned 18, she would join the military and escape, just like her father John did.
Oh wow.
However, Judy had other plans for Lisa.
She began forcing a relationship between Lisa and her own stepbrother, Carl.
Lisa's stepbrother.
Carl was just as abusive as Jack, and would often use Lisa's past trauma or sexual assault
against Lisa, calling her used up and that no one would ever want her.
So you might as well just marry me.
Like, I'm your only option.
I'm your only option.
Nobody else is gonna love you.
That is fucked up.
Because we're family.
That, oh my god, that fucking sucks.
Like that breaks my heart.
Carl would also begin raping Lisa, usually with inanimate objects.
He would record these encounters on videotape and share them with his friends.
And his friends weren't like, yo, that's your step sister?
Yeah.
And that's also rape?
Mm-hmm.
No.
This whole community is just people that are cool with rape and incest?
Apparently.
Cool.
It definitely sounds like a culture.
Even Lisa's brother, Teddy, had seen one of these videos of his sister, as Carl showed
everyone.
Lisa's humiliation in an attempt to control her.
He tried to keep her feeling worthless and embarrassed, essentially.
Lisa and Carl would go on to have four children together over the years.
What?
Like, they were married.
Like, they were together for four years.
And she fucking started to get kids.
Or over the years, rather.
I honestly do not blame her for staying with him because she probably does not know any
better.
She doesn't know any better.
She's, again, she was born with brain damage.
Brain damage occurred many times during these assaults.
She's probably, herself, is self-medicating with drugs and alcohol at this point.
She just thinks this is, again, this is how life is.
This is just gonna be my life.
This is it for forever.
It's like, if you were born and somebody told you this guy was green your whole life, you'd
believe them, especially a parent, right?
By the time that Lisa and Carl had their fourth child, Judy decided that Lisa would go on
to have a tubal ligation.
So Carl and Judy both decided.
For Lisa, you can't have any more children.
We're gonna tie our tubes.
Okay.
No more children.
So they have full control over her body?
Over her body, absolutely.
Well, I mean, so far that's all she's ever been taught, is that her body does not belong
to her.
So yes, she went under the procedure of tubal ligation, which is a surgery where your fallopian
tubes are cut, blocked, or sealed off to prevent any further pregnancies.
Lisa's mental state, which had already been deteriorating over the years from the physical
abuse began to worsen.
She began to have delusions and further isolate herself from her own children.
How old is she at this point?
She's probably in her 30s.
So perfect time for a mental disorder to develop?
Yeah, definitely.
And within the, yeah, for sure.
This is getting worse and worse as it goes on, because I think her and Carl, it was about
17, 18 when her and Carl, I don't even want to say got together, because that sounds like
there was a choice.
When you were forced together, or she was forced with that.
When she was sold to him, probably, which is so awful.
So yeah, this would be over the course of about 10 years, I'm going to say.
Right?
Because again, Carl and her were together when she was 18.
And yes.
So she would, like I said, experience delusions.
She was involved in multiple car accidents.
She drank heavily and she began to engage in sex work to make money on the side as she
couldn't keep a job down to her often erratic behavior.
So again, she's involved, again, like the multiple car accidents, all this stuff.
She's drinking heavily.
She's drugging.
She can't keep down a job.
She probably has no concept of a reality, honestly.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm also over here thinking about all of the mental disorders that develop in the late
20s and early 30s and women.
Lisa would eventually divorce her step-brother Carl and eventually meet a new man by the
name of Kevin.
Kevin and Lisa seemed to be doing well and Lisa yearned to give Kevin a baby.
Lisa began to claim on multiple occasions that she was in fact pregnant.
He didn't know about the procedure.
No.
But the pregnancies would always somehow end in a miscarriage.
However, we all know that this was not possible at the time as she had had her tubes tied.
Lisa, now 36, desperately wanted a child but was unable to conceive.
One afternoon, Lisa and Kevin went to a dog show, don't ask me why.
I mean, unless the trauma of losing the dog made her a dog person.
But this is, I was just like, oh, a dog show.
That's kind of interesting.
Random.
There, Lisa met 23-year-old Bobby Joe Stinnett, who along with her husband, Zeb, ran a dog
breeding business on the side.
Lisa and Bobby Joe struck up a conversation and when Bobby Joe mentioned that she was
expecting, Lisa said that she too was pregnant.
Shit.
Bobby Joe was born December 4, 1981 and she was an all-American type girl.
She was very active in school and in cheerleading.
In high school, she met the love of her life, which was Zeb Stinnett.
Bobby Joe was described as shy, kind, and loving and a huge animal lover and was excited
to become a mom for the very first time.
Zeb and Bobby Joe were saving up to purchase the couple's first home and things seemed
to be going well for the two.
The two settled in Skidmore, Missouri and started up a dog breeding business in order
to make money and Bobby Joe was very active in an online dog community forum.
Once Bobby Joe met Lisa, the two discussed that they were both pregnant and Bobby Joe
told Lisa about the forum and encouraged her to reach out on the forum if she was ever
interested in looking at a puppy for their new baby.
Lisa hopped on the chance to get involved with the forum and constantly seek validation
from people on the forum regarding her pregnancy.
She was sending everyone updates on her sonograms and even announced that she was pregnant with
twins.
In this dog forum?
Yeah, that's hilarious.
She's like, oh yay puppies, that's nice, I'm also pregnant.
By the way, talk about my pregnancy.
Here's my sonogram from Google.
After a month or so on the forum, Lisa announced that she had lost one of the twins.
So sad.
She continued to maintain her pregnancy story and began to buy Miss Honey clothes and carried
herself as if she was pregnant, like in her walk and stuff.
For months, Lisa and Bobby Joe kept in contact and eventually Lisa expressed her desire to
purchase one of Bobby Joe's terrier puppies.
Although she used the alias Darling Fisher.
She wasn't like yo Bobby Joe, homie, I'm gonna come over.
It's me, it's Jessica.
Todd Cree.
It's me, talk on to kiss, it's me, Todd Cree.
I love that man.
That's a good bit.
Just what a good practical joke.
I, Lisa loves Scott Disick, he was like my favorite character on that show.
He used to be.
Now everybody hates him.
I like him.
I think he's fine.
I think he's a good dad.
I think he was troubled for a long time and he finally realized what's going on.
Anyway.
The two would set a date in order for Darlene to pick up her new puppy.
So yeah, she was like, home girl it's not me, it's some mother chick.
And then she's like, okay cool.
That wasn't me, that was Patricia.
That was me, that was Patricia.
On December 16th, 2004, Bobby Joe's mother was unable to reach her daughter in the afternoon.
Oh Jesus.
Bobby Joe's mother found this strange as Bobby Joe was eight months pregnant and at
this point rarely left the home.
Zeb was at work and could not leave.
He had not heard from his wife either.
Neighbors said when asked that all seemed normal in the afternoon on the block other
than a suspicious four red four doors to Dan that was parked outside of the stand at home.
If it was suspicious, why didn't you call authorities?
This is a big giant tale of nobody doing anything.
Come to think of it, there was a suspicious vehicle.
Well I didn't find that strange.
I didn't find that strange.
Yeah, I did find that strange.
When Bobby Joe's mother entered the home, she was met with a horrific scene.
Her daughter was lying dead on the floor.
Blood covered every inch of the home.
The blood was fresh and it appeared that the crime had just occurred.
Bobby Joe's mother immediately called the police describing the state of her daughter
as it, quote, looked like her stomach had exploded and, quote, which is a horrific thing
for a mother to have to utter.
A horrific thing for anyone to see.
This is a mother and she's looking at her daughter like this.
That straight up makes me nauseous.
That is so sick.
EMTs worked on Bobby Joe as a rusher to the hospital, but unfortunately she was pronounced
to seats upon arrival at the hospital.
At about 515, Lisa called her husband Kevin to announce that she had given birth to their
first child together.
She was a healthy baby girl named Abigail.
Lisa had another surprise for Kevin.
She had stated that she actually decided to make a 175 mile shopping trip to Topeka when
all of a sudden Lisa went into labor, which is interesting.
So you know you're getting close to labor and you just decide to take a multiple hour
long trip?
175 miles to Topeka, which is where Bobby Joe lives.
Oh, okay, so you're literally placing yourself in the same time?
Yeah.
You're like, oh, I was just out shopping and I just, whoop.
Also, my name's Darlene and I went to pick up a puppy.
I don't have the puppy, but I do have a baby.
Oh my gosh.
She drove to a nearby clinic where she delivered the baby, is what she told Kevin.
And she's just heading home with the child mere hours later?
Well now she's feeling weak after birth, so Lisa asked Kevin to come pick her up in their
new baby girl from Topeka.
Kevin obliged, however, Lisa asked Kevin to pick her up from the long John Silver is
down the street from the clinic, not at the actual clinic, you know, where she gave birth.
Like literally just a little bit ago.
She's like, you have an old LJS.
Yeah.
Like, a chicken must just be like-
Like a hunker and for some fried fish.
For fried fish.
I couldn't wait.
Kevin brought a friend with him as Lisa's red Corolla needed to be driven back as well.
Four doors down.
You don't see.
Once in town, Lisa suggested that they go to a local diner.
Here at the diner, Lisa and Kevin began showing off baby Abigail.
They were shocked when they were told that the baby was only a day old, given the state
of her mother, Lisa, and that it's typically unusual for parents to bring their day old
or less than a day hour old baby out to a busy diner.
That's just something that does not happen.
Because you're not allowed to leave the hospital.
Well, not only that, but immunities.
Oh yeah.
You have to like slowly introduce your baby.
Like it's like, oh, that baby's like a super fresh baby.
Yeah.
Like, where did you get that baby?
Yeah, no, for real.
Oh my God.
And you're standing over here?
Just munching along?
Just munching along on your long john silvers that you brought to the diner?
Many in the community were also shocked at the presence of the baby, as a lot of people
didn't even believe that Lisa was pregnant in the first place.
Weird.
They're like, seriously, no, where did you get that baby?
No, like seriously.
Back at the stand at home, police were processing the crime scene.
It appears that Bobby Joe had been strangled to death.
Her infant daughter cut from her stomach with a kitchen knife from the couple's own home.
That is so fucking dangerous.
I mean, obviously she's deceased, but like for the baby too.
Yeah.
That is so scary.
An Amber Alert was put out for newborn Victoria Jo Stennett.
Police also looked into the stand at computer logs as Zeb told investigators that Bobby
Joe was expecting a woman to come by to purchase a puppy sometime that day.
Hoping this was a potential witness for a timeline, investigators find the address of
Darlene Fisher and head to Melbourne, Kansas to speak with her.
So they got her IP address and everything and they're just like, oh, this is Darlene.
Let's go find.
And they're thinking, we'll go speak with her.
Maybe if she got the puppy or didn't get the puppy, what time did she come around the
house?
Did she see anything suspicious?
Yeah, for sure.
She's a witness.
Yeah, exactly, a potential witness.
When investigators pull up, they see a red corolla parked in the driveway.
Suspicious red sedan.
This was all investigators needed to feel confident and that their suspect was located inside.
They just gained access to the home where they found Lisa holding baby Victoria Jo in
her arms as they were watching TV.
Just fucking hanging out.
She's just hanging out with the baby.
Also, she put her real address with a dumb ass.
Yeah.
Well, sorry.
She didn't put her address.
She it's an IP.
Oh, the email.
Yeah, they tracked where it came from.
I thought you were saying that like Darlene left like contact info with Bobby Joe.
You know, she's like, oh yeah, this is my description too.
There's my phone number.
She's like, this is definitely Lisa's phone number.
This is my mother's maiden name.
Although she's a bitch, don't contact her.
Lisa was taken in without incident and baby Victoria Jo was recovered safely.
It's soon reunited with her father's of and she once she was cleared, they took her to
the hospital and she was totally fine.
She was happy and healthy.
Well, I don't know about happy, but she was healthy.
Further investigation of Lisa's computer found searches such as quote at home, cesarean and
quote and quote birthing kits and quote.
Oh my God.
Many people online on the dog forum reported Lisa when she had shared a photo of little
Victoria Jo on the forum.
Like what the fuck?
Yeah, like they know that Bobby Joe was pregnant and that Lisa was likely not and this concerned
others in the forum.
So they had actually during this whole time had also reported.
Oh, those are the best people in this fucking story.
Are they dog forum people?
I know.
And Bobby Joe and Zeb, like it's just awful that all these other terrible, terrible people
are like surrounding Lisa.
But then there's this other, it's like good versus evil, which sounds crazy because it's
we're clearly talking about a mental disorder here.
But you know, what's up with Kevin though?
Like does he really believe that she was actually pregnant and she just had like her, does he
believe her story?
He believed her.
Yeah.
He had believed her.
I mean, there are in very rare cases pregnancies that you don't show at all.
Yeah.
But still, yeah, like she had, like I said, she was buying maternity clothes.
She had gained the weight and I don't think Kevin had had any kids at this point.
So maybe he's just like, I don't know.
I don't know the process, you know.
So of course, the online forum there and stings were right.
Good on you guys.
At first during an interrogation, Lisa tried to claim that the baby was hers.
However, police were unable to obtain records at the clinic.
Lisa claimed to have birthed the baby.
And furthermore, proving that the clinic had said that there was no records of any baby
girls being born on that day.
So.
Furthermore, Bobby Joe clung onto a few blonde hairs after her attack.
Whoa.
Later determined to be Lisa Montgomery's.
After 18 hours of interviewing, mostly with psychologists, Lisa had admitted to killing
Bobby Joe.
After playing with some of the puppies, Lisa strangled eight month pregnant Bobby Joe and
then removed Victoria Joe from her mother.
Lisa hopped into her car where she clamped the umbilical cord and wiped the baby down
with baby wipes.
Trying to come up with a plan, Lisa dumped her own car near the hospital and walked to
the Long John Silver's across the street.
Montgomery was arrested for the crime of kidnapping resulting in death.
Well, I was going to ask if she, if Bobby Joe ultimately passed on while this was happening
or like if Lisa actually meant to go kill her and then do it or if she just meant to
take the baby.
But obviously you said she strangled her first.
Yeah, she did.
Strangle her.
So she, her plan was to kill her and then take her baby, not just take the baby.
Montgomery pleaded not guilty and was formally diagnosed with depression, borderline personality
disorder and post-traumatic stress disorder while having suffered all the brain damage
from years of abuse.
The diagnosis of pseudoscices was also introduced but was highly debated.
According to the National Library of Medicine, pseudoscices, pseudoscices, yeah I said it
right there for a second.
Is a condition in which the patient has all the signs or symptoms of a pregnancy except
for the confirmation of a presence of a fetus.
So you believe, you know, you believe it.
You can really trick yourself into like having symptoms.
In the case of pseudoscices, i.e. phantom pregnancy, there is an abdominal distention, enlargement
of the breasts, enhanced pigmentation, cessation of menses, morning sickness and vomiting, typical
lortic posture, arm walking, inverted, umbilicus, increased appetite and weight gain.
So that's that diagnosis.
Some said that Montgomery did experience these symptoms while others claimed that she never
complained about pregnancy symptoms at all.
So that's where it was highly debated.
The jury was unable to hear most of Montgomery's traumatic past, resulting in limiting the jury's
understanding of what could have contributed to Montgomery's mental state.
Why were they, why were they not allowed to hear that?
I, maybe because so much time had passed, I'm thinking maybe like her being a child
and being abused then versus her becoming an adult.
And you know, maybe they could have said because she moved away from the family, she wasn't
living with the mother anymore, that you know how people can be.
Yeah, but there's also the, the thing of, um, your fucking childhood shapes who you are
as an adult.
Oh no, absolutely.
Like it doesn't fucking matter how long it's been.
Yeah.
It fucking happened and it changed the course of her life.
Montgomery totally could have said, you know, well she hasn't been living with her mother
since she was 18 years old.
So you know, she's had all this time in the world to figure that out.
It, that has nothing to do with, you know, her brain wasn't permanently underdeveloped
or anything.
Right.
Cool.
Because of fetal alcohol syndrome.
Yeah.
Because she was fucking abused.
Oh, and you remember when she left her mother's house at 18 because she was forced to marry
her fucking stepbrother?
Remember that?
Oh, I do.
Yeah.
I remember that.
That was just a little bit ago.
No, I'm talking to the prosecutor.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
Oh my god.
Even with her multiple diagnosis, Montgomery was found guilty on October 22nd, 2007 of
kidnapping, resulting in death.
Damn.
Both life imprisonment and death penalty was presented to the jury.
And the jury unanimously decided that Lisa Montgomery was to be sentenced to death by
lethal injection.
Oh my gosh.
Montgomery's abuse was only fully understood after the trial was over.
She immediately began to attempt to appeal and many people chose to advocate for Montgomery
once they realized the magnitude of the abuse she experienced and the lack of help that
she received over the years.
Like, not saying that she doesn't deserve to be locked up, but look at what fucking caused
this.
It's her relationship.
She needs to be institutionalized.
She does.
Yeah.
I would say she definitely deserves something.
She's clearly not been able to have, again, it's another case and when she can't have
control over her own body.
Of course.
Again.
Many people along Montgomery's life chose not to do something even when they knew that
the abuse was taking place.
Montgomery's supporters included her sister Diane, who wrote to President Trump in 2020
about Montgomery's abuse.
What?
Wild.
It was about her abuse, her mental disorders, and lack of treatment or intervention, asking
for Montgomery's death sentence to be overturned or reduced or reduce her sentence to life,
wishing for Lisa Montgomery to receive psychiatric treatment for the remainder of her time incarcerated.
I completely agree.
Some of this letter reads, quote,
We know from firsthand experience that these crimes are inevitably the product of a serious
mental illness.
Women who commit such crimes also are likely to have been victimized themselves.
These are important factors that make death sentences inappropriate.
We therefore urge you to commute the death sentence of Lisa Montgomery, a mentally ill
and brutally traumatized woman, end quote.
The letter would continue, quote,
Lisa's experiences as a victim of horrific sexual violence, physical abuse, and being
trafficked as a child do not excuse her crime.
But her history provides us with an important explanation that would influence any sentencing
recommendation we made as prosecutors.
Our experience prosecuting human traffickers and those who commit sex crimes against children
has given us a unique understanding of the profound physical and psychological harm that
victims like Lisa suffer.
We view this kind of evidence as critically relevant to determining the appropriate punishment
for a serious crime, end quote.
I could not have said it better myself.
Because exactly what that says is like, had the jury known all of this other shit, they
most likely would not have sent in search of death.
Not to death, yeah.
I mean, of course, maybe to life, but not to death.
I don't think.
I don't.
That's my opinion.
I don't think.
I think it's taken from that letter of the two Donald Trump, but it was also to it was
Diane Montgomery's sister and then prosecutors, defense attorneys, advocates, everybody, you
know, medical professionals, psychological professionals, stuff like that.
That's why that second one, it was like, it says as prosecutors.
Yeah, I was thinking that too.
I was like, what?
This request was met with silence and Lisa Montgomery was executed on January 13th, 2021.
When asked if she had any last words, she simply replied, no.
Lisa Montgomery is the only federal inmate on death row at the time of her execution
and was the was the first woman federally executed in 67 years.
Only three women in total have been executed by federal government in our history.
Mary Surrett, who helped conspire the assassination of Abraham Lincoln in 1865.
Ethel Rosenberg, who spied on the US government and gave Soviets war secrets in 1953.
And Bonnie Heady Hall, who had murdered six year old Robert Greenleese in a botched kidnapping
for ransom also in 1953.
So that's only four women that I've ever been executed federally, one of which was
Lisa Montgomery with all of that mental illness.
That's awful, honestly.
I don't think that any justice was served by killing her.
That's again my opinion.
I feel like if she had gotten psychiatric help, it's very likely that she might not
have committed another murder.
I think that if she had gotten, well, she should have gotten psychiatric help from
the beginning.
Well, what really should have happened is that she shouldn't have fucking been through
like hell and back.
Yeah.
But at 18, whenever she was able to leave the house, she should have gotten psychiatric
help, but she was in no position to seek that for herself.
No, yeah.
Again, she was taught at a very young age that her body was not hers.
She was married to Carl.
Her choices were not her own.
Yeah.
Some say that because the government was in a lame duck period, waiting for Trump to
leave office and Biden to come into office, it was overlooked.
It kind of makes sense.
I think in between that lame duck period is what they call it, lame duck.
I think three people were executed on death row.
All of which were trying to be appealed for turnover.
God, that's awful.
Jack Kleiner, Lisa Montgomery's stepfather, passed away in 2009 at age 77.
Too good for him.
Straight up too good for him.
And in a strange twist, in 2019, Lisa Montgomery's brother, Teddy Kleiner, was killed in what
seemed like a random event.
What?
He was found with multiple gunshot wounds deceased at the scene, and the case is considered
an open investigation still.
Oh my gosh.
Like, they don't know what happened.
They don't know if it was like a road rage or if it was a, yeah.
Wow.
Isn't that nuts?
That is wild.
That's the story of Lisa Montgomery.
Dang, that was an intense one.
It's a lot.
It's a lot, especially from the beginning.
And as soon as you said that she met Bobby Joe and she said that they were both pregnant,
I knew where it was going, but it was still really hard to hear.
Yeah.
That's a gnarly case.
And I had never heard about that.
The name sounded familiar, but never heard about that.
And that's so awful, because every single thing in this story could have been prevented.
Yeah, I agree.
One more person stood up and said something.
Clearly, they talked about it with the Child Protective Services in Diane's case.
But Diane was, you know, she was eight, I think, when she was removed, and she went
on to lead a healthy, fulfilling life.
And you know, I mean, things could have happened for Lisa.
Yeah, processes are there in place for a reason.
Like, this happened to this eight-year-old.
Why wouldn't it happen to a four-year-old?
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, she's going to be eight in four years, you know?
Yeah.
So we do see them.
I mean, it's so screwed up.
What we always say is, if you see something, say something, but if you know something,
say something.
It's never too late to help somebody.
You could very well be saving a life in the future.
And even if it's documentation, it's you call and report suspected abuse of a child.
And it turns out that they can't really do anything about it or something.
Well, that's on record.
And so many occurrences, they're like, okay, there's a pattern here.
Something's going wrong.
Something's wrong.
Yeah.
Anyways.
Well, dang, that was a doozy to bring on our first episode back in a couple weeks.
So just a quick share.
The National Domestic Violence Hotline can be reached at 1-800-799-7233.
Once again, that's 1-800-799-7233.
If you are a loved one or an immediate danger, call 911.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right.
Thank you guys for joining us for another case.
And like I said earlier, I am going to now announce who I am doing for my Patreon episode.
For this month, I have decided to bring a case that is Russian.
Okay.
And the person we are going to be talking about is Alexander Pichushkin, aka the chessboard
killer.
What?
So we are talking about the chessboard killer.
Never heard of her.
Make sure you tune in to the Patreon to get access on that.
Again, that is on the 29th of every month, which means it will be coming out a day after
this episode releases.
And that is only available for exclusive tier two and three Patreon members.
Patrons.
Oh my gosh.
I'm excited.
We love you guys.
Love you.
Bye.
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