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Hello! Hello! Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Kenna and I'm Koel.

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What were you gonna say? This is like the 18th time we've started this episode.

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I know, I don't know why the hellos just sounded so weird.

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So weird.

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Hello! Hello!

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I don't know.

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She's already starting.

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Start!

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It's like, you're Miley Cyrus impersonation.

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Yeah.

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You guys, we have a juzi for you today.

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I have a juzi for you today because you don't know who I'm doing.

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But really quickly, give us the handle so I can get into this fucking case.

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You just want to get into it?

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I just want to get into it.

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Alright, you can check us out at diagnosticackiller.com.

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There you will find links to resources and merch.

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You can follow us anywhere on social media at Diagnosing a Killer, other than X, which

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is at Killer Diagnosis.

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Email us, review us, rate us.

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All that good stuff.

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Check out our trailer. We actually just released a trailer at two years in.

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It's so good.

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We actually have a trailer.

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And I actually need to send that to Jason.

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First of all, I was just thinking that I could send him the audio clip but I didn't

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send him the trailer.

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Got to send him that.

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Here we go.

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If you are one of the people, the lovely people that we had the pleasure of meeting

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at the True Crime and Paranormal Podcast Festival, listen to our most recent mental

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breakdown about it because your name is most definitely in there.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Okay.

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I decided this week to do a case that is from the UK.

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Because I recognized recently that we have a lot of UK listeners and we really love

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you guys.

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So I decided to bring a UK case and that is a case of Harold Frederick Shipman, aka Dr.

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Death.

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Okay.

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Yes.

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Interesting topic.

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Dr. Death.

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It's a death.

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I'm not going to do the accent on purpose.

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If it comes out, it comes out.

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But yes, so if you're in the UK, you obviously know who that is.

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If you don't, you're in horrible treats.

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A horrible treat.

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Content warning, this episode contains depictions of child neglect, substance abuse, manipulation

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of vulnerable people, spousal abuse, and suicide.

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If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.

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Remember, your mental health is very important to us and we love you.

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We love you.

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Bye.

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So yeah, a lot of stuff going on in this one.

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Wow, that is, that's a pretty hefty, there's a lot to unpack here.

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A lot to unpack.

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Okay.

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All right, we're going to get into it.

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So hefty content warning.

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So Harold Frederick Shipman Jr. was born on January 14th, 1946 in Nottingham, England.

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Capricorn.

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To Harold Frederick Shipman Sr. and Vera Breton, I think is how you say it last name.

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Vera.

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Yes, the cute name.

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Or Vera.

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Vera, maybe.

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So Harold was born on the Bestwood Estate, which is a council estate.

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Essentially, from what I gathered, it meant like public housing.

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But if I'm not mistaken, it meant like maybe like an apartment building or like a condo

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complex.

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Then let me know, email us.

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Harold was the second of three children, his siblings being older sister Pauline and younger

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brother Clive.

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Clive.

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I like the name.

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Clive.

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I like the name.

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Growing up, Harold wanted to have his own identity so he would frequently go by nicknames

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like Fred or Freddie because of his middle name, but I'm going to call him Harold because

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you know, I never give them their nicknames.

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His father, Harold Sr. worked as a lorry driver or a truck driver while his mom Vera was a

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stay at home mom.

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Although Harold was known as being the favorite child of Vera, she was also known as being

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very domineering and instilling a sense of superiority in all of her children, especially

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Harold.

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Having this negative influence from his mother caused a strain on all of Harold's outside

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relationships growing up and caused him to not be able to keep any sort of friendship.

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So he was just like so overwhelmed by, or I guess like overburdened with this thought

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that like he, what couldn't connect with people?

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Well, she was essentially saying, like it's definitely not a bad thing to instill a sense

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of pride in your children or confidence, but she was essentially trying to make them like

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act arrogant.

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Right.

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So he wasn't able to keep friendships because he had to act like this big boastful like,

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he was the best.

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Better than you got, exactly.

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So I really kept it, but that's what he knew from home.

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But his friends were like, don't want to hang out with him because he was like kind of an

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asshole.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So like, yeah.

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So she overburdened him with this sense, like grandiose sense of self.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So this sense of entitlement did not only affect the kids' relationships, however, and

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the neighbor was noted as saying once, quote, Vera was friendly enough, but she really did

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see her family as superior to the rest of us.

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Not only that, you could tell Harold was her favorite, the one she saw as the most promising

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of her three children, end quote.

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So it wasn't even like obvious in the household.

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It was obvious to like other people.

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Yeah, that's definitely a spin on a middle child though, because you usually don't hear

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that about a middle child.

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Right.

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So it's all the middle children out there, but you know, it's usually, again, we said

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it before, it's like the baby gets the attention because they're a baby.

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The eldest gets the attention because they're the eldest and the middle always feels like

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they have to stop saying like squeaky wheel gets the grease.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, exactly.

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But in this case, he's hyper focused on, which is interesting.

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Yeah, that is interesting.

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So Vera was also known as telling Harold who he could and could not hang out with.

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And she wanted to make sure that he stood out from the other boys his age.

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Don't play tennis.

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Oh, what I was saying.

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Don't play a team sport.

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Don't play a team sport.

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Don't play tennis.

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She would dress them up in formal attire for school while the other boys were wearing

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much more casual clothing.

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Like a little bow tie.

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Yeah, she's like, you're going to look the best.

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The best.

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Well, then I'm sure that they wanted the image that they were affluent as well.

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As a student, Harold was above average in his studies in his early years, but seemed

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to slip to the lower part of the class average when he reached high school.

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Harold would play rugby in youth leagues growing up and would pass his 11 plus in 1957 at age

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nine.

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I didn't know what that was because we're in the US.

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But for the people that aren't from the UK, this is a standardized exam given to children

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when they reach their last year of grade school and passing the exam allows them to enter

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the secondary school.

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Okay.

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So it's like a final final, like a secondary test or a star test.

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Okay.

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Like middle school secondary.

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Okay.

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Because I was at age nine when he passed it.

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After completion of the exam, Harold would move to high pavement grammar school, Nottingham,

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and would remain there until 1964.

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So again, this is like seven years that he's there.

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While here, Harold would take to long distance running and continue rugby.

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And during his final year of school, he would become a vice captain of the athletics team.

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He's just trying to get up there because he's probably mad that he was a vice captain and

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not a captain.

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During this time, Harold's ideations of him being better than his peers continued and

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he was still having a hard time maintaining his friendships.

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Harold's mother Vera had gotten sick with lung cancer while he was attending this school,

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which also kept him away from his peers often.

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Yeah, I thought that was like heart wrenching for him.

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Absolutely.

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Because he's his best friend.

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Exactly.

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And his biggest, yeah, his biggest supporter and everything.

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Because Alaya, Vera was sick for many months.

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Harold actually attending to her care at all times like he took it upon himself.

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Harold would go quickly home every day after school, make her a cup of tea and just talk

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with her.

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Vera would make sure to let Harold know that she was counting the minutes that he was gone.

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So I don't know if that was in like a sweet and deering way, like, oh honey, you may be

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so happy being here for you.

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You've been counting 52 minutes.

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Counting the minutes to you're gone.

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Or she's like, I'm fucking counting the minutes.

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Yeah, it's been 43 minutes that he was supposed to be here three minutes ago.

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Three minutes.

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Now during this time, the painkillers that Vera had been on, had been taking were no

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longer serving her well.

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And now Vera was being assisted by her family physician who was now giving her morphine

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for the pain.

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Harold noted that he was fascinated by how the morphine seemed to take away his mother's

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pain like almost instantly.

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Oh no.

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He was like, oh, that's interesting.

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Unfortunately, Vera's cancer was terminal and after losing most of her body weight over

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a few months of treatment, she would die on June 21st, 1963, when Harold was just 17.

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Just a few months she was dealing with that?

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That's so sad.

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Yeah, a few months of treatment.

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Of treatment, that's what I mean.

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It's probably diagnosed really late.

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Yeah.

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Oh my gosh.

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I know, that's 17.

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That's 17.

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And that's like, again, you're a fucking person.

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Yeah.

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Like the only person that you feel like you can turn to.

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After Vera's death, Harold was obviously devastated as his mother was the only person he had a

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good relationship with at this point.

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Vera's passing led a spark under Harold's butt to go to medical school where he vowed

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that he would do something to help in the future, which I think is really admirable,

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honestly, at this point in his life.

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At this point.

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Let's wait.

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Yeah.

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So, in terms of attempts to apply for Leeds University medical school where he would

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actually fail his entrance exam the first time, he would eventually pass it, however,

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and two years after his mother passed away, Harold would get his degree and go on to join

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the Leeds University Hospital internship.

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So, what, he's like 19?

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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He's under 17 when he, yeah, in two years.

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But that's just his associates to get to the internship in pretty sure.

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Right.

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Whatever kind of degree you need.

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Now he has to go through the residency.

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That's pretty, you know, pretty impressive about something that he immediately knew he

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wanted to do and then within two years before he went to the point.

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He did it.

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He just fucking did it.

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Yeah.

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Most of his fellow students and teachers had a hard time remembering who Harold was, and

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it wasn't because of his grades.

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The people who did remember him noted his arrogant attitude stating, quote, it was as if he tolerated

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us.

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If someone told a joke, he would smile patiently, but Fred never wanted to join in.

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Again, his nickname's Fred.

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Right.

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Well, it seems funny because I later heard he'd been a good athlete.

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So you'd have thought he'd be more of a team player.

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Oh, okay.

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It's guys clever.

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Yeah.

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Most of his classmates, however, thought of Harold as a loner of sorts.

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Even so, Harold was known to have been more social at med school than in high school,

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as his mother was no longer around to dictate who he talked to.

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Makes sense.

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Another former teacher from high school would state about Harold, quote, I don't think he

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ever had a girlfriend.

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In fact, he took his older sister to school dances.

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They made a strange couple, but then he was a bit strange, a pretentious lad.

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And quote.

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A pretentious lad.

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I had to say it like that.

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I'm so sorry.

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Pretentious lad.

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We love Europe, honestly.

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We love you guys.

253
00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,480
So we're not making fun to be rude.

254
00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,480
And I know that y'all do fucking American accents over there, too.

255
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:41,480
Okay.

256
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:42,480
This is all in good fun.

257
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,360
But yeah, a pretentious lad.

258
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:45,880
So he brought his sister to school dances.

259
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:46,880
Mm-hmm.

260
00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,360
He probably wasn't allowed to talk to girls.

261
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:50,360
That's true.

262
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:51,360
Yeah, I bet.

263
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,360
Yeah.

264
00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,440
I mean, I think I've definitely known at least one or two people that I went to middle

265
00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,440
school or high school with that did that, too.

266
00:10:58,440 --> 00:10:59,960
It would take their cousin or something.

267
00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:02,360
Well, no one wants to show up without a date, right?

268
00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,400
No one wants to show up without a date.

269
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,640
And not only that, but if you can show your cousin your school or something.

270
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:09,640
Yeah, that's fun.

271
00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:10,640
That's fun.

272
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:11,640
And it's just, yeah.

273
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:12,640
It's like whatever.

274
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:13,640
It's just a dance.

275
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:14,640
It's not prom or something.

276
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:15,640
Yeah, they're not kissing.

277
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:16,640
Or were they?

278
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:17,640
Alabama.

279
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:18,640
Okay.

280
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,400
The same year that he got the internship, Harold would meet a 16-year-old girl by the

281
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,800
name of Primrose Mae Ox-Toby.

282
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,200
I love the name Primrose.

283
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:28,200
Primrose.

284
00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:29,200
It's so cute.

285
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,280
Her background was similar to Harold's, with her mother restricting who she talked to and

286
00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,120
controlling most of her daily activities.

287
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,840
Just like Harold, Primrose was very excited to finally have a partner to share life with.

288
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,040
The two did not wait long and would quickly get married within a year.

289
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:44,040
Oh, wow.

290
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,600
And with Primrose being five months pregnant, on November 5th, 1966, they were married.

291
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:49,600
They would wed.

292
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:50,600
Wow.

293
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,080
Harold would continue to study medicine at the Leeds School of Medicine, University of

294
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,280
Leeds, and would graduate in 1970.

295
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:02,000
Four years later in 1974, Harold was now a father of two and took his first position as

296
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,240
a general practitioner at the Abram or Mered Medical Center in Todd Morden, Yorkshire.

297
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:08,240
Sorry.

298
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:09,240
Wow, that's a lot.

299
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:10,240
That's a lot.

300
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,320
I think just being American, we also don't have a melt for that.

301
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:15,320
Yeah.

302
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:16,320
Does it sound right?

303
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:17,320
Does it sound right?

304
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,760
Harold was in his new setting and in a position of power.

305
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:21,120
Harold seemed thrive.

306
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,760
He became outgoing, personable, and a respected member of the community in the eyes of first

307
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:27,520
responders and patients alike.

308
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,000
Okay, Gary, Ridgeway, we see.

309
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,000
Yeah, right.

310
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,520
However, his coworkers were not fooled by his newfound politeness and hero attitude.

311
00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,840
They would comment that he was often rude for no reason and made them feel stupid.

312
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:43,080
In fact, Harold would say to anyone that he didn't like that they were stupid.

313
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,200
He would just call you stupid.

314
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:45,200
Jeez.

315
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,560
Harold has to be the bad boss.

316
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:54,600
Yeah, and Clis says this often that it's not about how much you know, it's about understanding.

317
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:55,600
Yeah.

318
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,080
And sure, he can know everything in the world.

319
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,480
But if he doesn't have a full understanding, especially of how to participate and apply

320
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,320
that knowledge, then it's useless.

321
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:06,920
Yeah, exactly.

322
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,800
On top of this, Harold was noted as being confrontational and combative very often, even

323
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:17,280
leading to him belittling people and embarrassing them, which I can't fucking stand that shit.

324
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,040
More experienced doctors would even allow him to do things his way in order to avoid

325
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:22,040
arguing with them.

326
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,760
They're like, you know what, this kid is not worth it.

327
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:26,760
Just fucking do it.

328
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,200
If a patient dies, it's your fucking fault.

329
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,400
I stopped being friends with people like that.

330
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,360
Yeah, just keep in mind, he's not even 30 yet at this point.

331
00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,200
I would literally just be like, oh gosh, yeah.

332
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,280
Just to avoid an entire complication, I'm just going to allow this person to do whatever.

333
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,480
I have avoided friendships to avoid confrontations.

334
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,480
I'm like, you know what, you do you, I'll do me.

335
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:45,480
I'm not fucking.

336
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:46,480
I'm that way now.

337
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:47,480
Yeah.

338
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:48,980
For a long time, I put up with a lot of crap.

339
00:13:48,980 --> 00:13:49,980
Oh, no, same.

340
00:13:49,980 --> 00:13:50,980
Absolutely.

341
00:13:50,980 --> 00:13:51,980
Yeah.

342
00:13:51,980 --> 00:13:52,980
But yeah, they definitely didn't want to argue with him.

343
00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:54,840
They're like, it's not worth my time.

344
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:59,600
In fact, his senior partner saw him as hardworking, who contributed significantly by providing

345
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,920
up to date info and even admiring his work ethic, even though he was recently out of

346
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,120
med school.

347
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,600
So he has his immediate superiors that are like, he's just going to do whatever the

348
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,080
info he wants, allowing him to have that ability to showcase his talents.

349
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:14,080
That space, yeah.

350
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,080
And he's not dumb.

351
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:16,080
He's a smart dude.

352
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,080
Yeah.

353
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,360
Now the people above them are like getting when they're like, dang, this guy knows what

354
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,360
the hell he's doing.

355
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:21,360
Yeah.

356
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,200
All of a sudden, it seems Harold's hardworking mentality and near perfect record came to

357
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,600
a halt when he began experiencing frequent blackouts.

358
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:30,600
What?

359
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,000
His partners were obviously concerned.

360
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,760
And when asked about why he thought this might be going on, he explained to them that

361
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,040
he had actually been recently diagnosed with epilepsy.

362
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,680
A diagnosis that was false, although his coworkers were none the wiser and had no choice but

363
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:45,680
to believe him.

364
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:46,680
What?

365
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,960
The year after Harold began working at the practice, receptionist Marjorie Walker came

366
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,040
across some disturbing entries in a narcotics ledger that Harold had access to.

367
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:56,040
Oh my gosh.

368
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,840
Okay, I'm getting like, oh, I'm getting a little heebie.

369
00:14:58,840 --> 00:14:59,840
What is happening?

370
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,480
The records had indicated that Harold had prescribed large and frequent amounts of

371
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,120
pethadine to several different patients, so for those that don't know, pethadine is an

372
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,920
opioid pain reliever that was frequently prescribed for different conditions, but has since become

373
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,120
very uncommon because it's really harmful.

374
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,720
On top of this, Harold had been prescribing the same drug on behalf of the company, which

375
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,200
was not extremely weird.

376
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,800
However, the amounts in which he was prescribing were oddly large.

377
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:24,800
Okay.

378
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,120
Sounds like Grant Amato.

379
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,760
Like Grant Amato or Chris and Gilbert?

380
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,200
Yeah, oh, Chris and Gilbert for sure.

381
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,200
For sure.

382
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,320
But yeah, even Grant Amato got pinched for that.

383
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:34,320
Yeah.

384
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:35,600
They would be like, oh, okay, great.

385
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,600
There's like three vials of whatever this is, but it's split between three people and

386
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,600
it's like a whole vial.

387
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:42,600
What?

388
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:43,600
Yeah.

389
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,560
Following this discovery, an investigation was opened by the practice, and to the surprise

390
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,600
of the investigators, none of the patients that were prescribed a large amount of drugs

391
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,120
ever received them.

392
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:53,120
What?

393
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,120
Okay, okay, okay.

394
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:55,120
Where is this going?

395
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,120
Dr. John Darce was also part of this investigation as a witness or an assistant.

396
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,120
I wasn't sure which.

397
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,360
One of their partners, Dr. Michael Grieve, recalled during a staff meeting, quote, we

398
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:10,080
were sat round with Fred sitting on one side and up comes John on the opposite and says,

399
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,600
now young Fred, can you explain this?

400
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,520
And he puts before him evidence that he has been gleaning, showing that young Fred had

401
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,080
been prescribing Pethidine to patients and they never received the Pethidine.

402
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,720
And in fact, the Pethidine had found its way into Fred's very own veins, end quote.

403
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:29,520
He was shooting this shit up and that's when he was blacking out.

404
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,720
He was like, I have epilepsy.

405
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,240
I have epilepsy, sorry.

406
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,640
It's not funny that he's clearly abusing drugs.

407
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:36,640
No.

408
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:37,640
That's not more laughing.

409
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:38,640
No.

410
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:39,640
It's ridiculous.

411
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:40,640
It's like, what?

412
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,200
The substance use isn't funny, but the explanation.

413
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:49,800
And then the fact that he was taking his own notes about it and all that stuff.

414
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,600
And that's also something that we'll see.

415
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,960
This is definitely like an arrogant man, of course, because he was raised to be that

416
00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,960
way, but he thinks that he can just explain away like a lot of stuff and it obviously

417
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:01,960
doesn't work.

418
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:02,960
Mm-hmm.

419
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,800
Harold would immediately beg for a second chance upon his partners realizing this.

420
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,840
Once he realized that his career was on the line.

421
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:09,840
Career.

422
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:10,840
Sorry, I said career.

423
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:11,840
It's on the line.

424
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:12,840
His career.

425
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,440
When he was denied a second chance, his demeanor changed and he became enraged and stormed

426
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:18,840
out.

427
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,840
During this tantrum, he would throw a medical bag on the ground and threatened to resign.

428
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,840
And we're firing you, buddy.

429
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,840
You can't fire me.

430
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:27,840
I quit.

431
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,920
His partners were completely caught off guard at his behavior as they had never seen him

432
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,600
do anything like this in his past.

433
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,240
He's been abusing drugs too.

434
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:36,240
Yeah.

435
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,640
Shortly after this fit of anger, Harold's wife, Primrose, stormed into the room where

436
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,760
his coworkers were discussing the best way to fire him.

437
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,760
This sounds like a skit, like a play.

438
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:52,200
She screamed at the men in the room stating, quote, you'll have to force him out, end quote.

439
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:53,200
That's the plan.

440
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,360
Sounds so dramatic.

441
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:59,440
In response to this, Harold was forced out of the practice and into a drug rehab center

442
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:00,440
in 1975.

443
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,800
They're like, yeah, we're going to force him to go get clean with the fuck he stole from

444
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,520
us and he's abusing drugs.

445
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,800
Yeah, and he blamed it on having epilepsy.

446
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,400
Yeah, seriously.

447
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:16,480
Two years later in 1977, Harold was actually convicted of drug offenses, prescription fraud

448
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,400
and forgery, and was fined a total of 600 pounds.

449
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,160
Okay, no jail time?

450
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:22,160
No.

451
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,560
The license was not revoked, licensed to practice.

452
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:25,560
What?

453
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,880
And Harold was able to gain employment as a general practitioner at Donnie Brook Medical

454
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,840
Center and hide Greater Manchester at the same year.

455
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:32,840
Manchester.

456
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,160
Why was that not taken away?

457
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:37,160
I don't know.

458
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,160
Maybe they have different rules.

459
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,440
He's using his prescription pad to prescribe drugs to people that aren't getting them.

460
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:42,440
This is also the 70s.

461
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:43,440
That's true.

462
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,800
When every doctor was on cocaine.

463
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:47,960
They were prescribing cocaine.

464
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,000
They were prescribing, no.

465
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,000
That old.

466
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,000
Oh.

467
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,760
Well, maybe it was.

468
00:18:53,760 --> 00:19:01,080
I think I feel like I read somewhere, or maybe it was the Pacific, the show that I watched,

469
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:02,400
I don't remember.

470
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,720
But they were prescribing like pilots and stuff for the Vietnam War.

471
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,800
They were prescribing them like heroin and shit so that they'd sleep on the long trip

472
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,000
like to Vietnam.

473
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,440
And then, you know, not only that, but they wouldn't feel anxious or anything like that

474
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,720
jumping out of a fucking plane.

475
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,360
I can't, I even imagine that's wild.

476
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:25,640
So about this, so again, he moved to a new practice.

477
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,640
So Dr. Jeffrey Moisey of this Center would say to Harold, quote, his approach was that

478
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,840
I have had this problem, this conviction for abuse of Pesadine.

479
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,160
I have undergone treatment.

480
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:36,560
I am now clean.

481
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,720
All I can ask you to do is trust me on that issue and to watch me.

482
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:40,720
And quote.

483
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:41,720
So that's what he was like.

484
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:42,720
That's what he said.

485
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,760
Well, you know, I mean again, substance use can be treated.

486
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:46,760
Absolutely.

487
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,720
Once again, Harold fell into the persona of delicate, hardworking and community center

488
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,400
doctor and was able to gain the respect of his colleagues.

489
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,800
Some people that worked under him had some things to say about his sarcasm and verbally

490
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,800
abusive nature, but he was really good at covering up his rudeness and making people

491
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,280
feel like they were overreacting.

492
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,080
He's like a gaslighter.

493
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,080
Yeah.

494
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,760
However, there were no signs of drug abuse, blackouts or theft at all.

495
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,040
So most of it went unnoticed, like all of his kind of odd behavior like sarcasm and all

496
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,040
that stuff.

497
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,800
Harold would continue working as a GP in Hyde all throughout the 1980s.

498
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:26,440
And in 1983, he was interviewed in an edition of the Granada TV current affairs documentary

499
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,920
titled World in Action, in which he spoke about how the mentally ill should be treated

500
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,760
in the community.

501
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,080
He became highly respected not only in the medical field, but in the mental health community

502
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,040
as well.

503
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,840
Harold would continue his work for another 15 years until the local undertaker called

504
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,520
Alan Massey began noticing a strange pattern in his patients.

505
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,400
He took note of the fact that Harold's patients were dying at an alarmingly fast rate, but

506
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:59,240
also their bodies had many similarities to each other when he was called to get them.

507
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:04,320
So the undertaker's patients or Harold's patients?

508
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,200
The undertaker noticed a strange pattern in Harold's patients.

509
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,640
Okay, because like in his patients it's like, well, there's your problem right there.

510
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,080
You got an undertaker working on some patients.

511
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,080
Yes.

512
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,320
So again, Alan Massey is the name of the undertaker.

513
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:22,560
He stated about this observation of the patterns, quote, anybody can die in a chair, but there's

514
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:23,920
no set pattern.

515
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:28,120
And Dr. Shipman's always seemed to be the same or very similar.

516
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:32,840
Could be sat in a chair, could be laid on the seat, but I would say 90% was always fully

517
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:33,920
clothed.

518
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,800
There was never anything in the house that I saw that indicated the person had been ill.

519
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,160
It just seems the person where they were had died.

520
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,040
There was something that didn't quite fit, end quote.

521
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,040
That is weird.

522
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,040
Isn't it?

523
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,000
It's just everyone that he comes to take is just upright in a chair, fully clothed.

524
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,240
Like they just died right there.

525
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,760
There's no, it doesn't appear to be any suffering or long-term illness or no blood.

526
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,120
A attempt to get to a bathroom.

527
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:03,280
You know, or outside or the phone, exactly.

528
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:04,280
Yeah.

529
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,320
Alan's suspicions only grew to the point that he felt he needed to confront Harold regarding

530
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,520
his deceased patients.

531
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,320
Alan stated about this encounter, quote, I asked him if there was any cause for concern

532
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,360
and he just said, no, there isn't.

533
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:20,120
He showed me his certificate book that he issues death certificates in, the cause of

534
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:24,840
death in, and his remarks were, nothing to worry about, you've nothing to worry about,

535
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,920
and anybody who wants to inspect his book can do, end quote.

536
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,760
Well, I mean, we all know how Harold does with his books.

537
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:31,760
Yeah.

538
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,720
That he's like, oh, no, what is it of full me once, Jamon me full me twice, Jamon.

539
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:37,720
No, the other way around.

540
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:38,720
Yeah.

541
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,920
It's horrible with those apparently.

542
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:41,920
That's what it is.

543
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,840
It's like, Harold is now remembering that he got in trouble for writing things down and

544
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:47,840
getting it.

545
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,800
Now he's writing things out on purpose as an alibi.

546
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:50,800
Exactly.

547
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:51,800
Exactly.

548
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,800
Pendulum swings the other way.

549
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:54,800
Yes.

550
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,400
Alan did not feel the need to check Harold's logs, however, as Harold's calm and collective

551
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,640
response seemed good enough for the undertaker.

552
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,880
Alan's daughter, Debbie Brambrough, also a funeral director, was not as easily fooled.

553
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,840
Debbie would partner up with Dr. Susan Booth, a doctor from a nearby practice, and the two

554
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,000
of them would decide to look further into Harold.

555
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,240
Dr. Booth had taken it upon herself to go to the funeral director's home to examine

556
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,720
a new body, as this was not unusual due to the British law that requires a doctor from

557
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,320
an unrelated practice to cosine forms from the first doctor.

558
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,320
Okay.

559
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:32,600
Doctors in the UK are paid a fee for this, jokingly referred to as quote, cash for ash.

560
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,960
I just had to pepper that in there.

561
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,040
It was kind of cute.

562
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,080
Debbie, so again, the daughter of the undertaker, had shared with Dr. Booth that she was concerned

563
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,120
about the amount of patients that Harold was losing.

564
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:48,040
Susan Booth would state about this conversation, quote, she was concerned about the number

565
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,960
of deaths Dr. Shipman's patients that they attended recently.

566
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,000
She was also puzzled by the way in which the patients were found.

567
00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:00,040
They are mostly female, living on their own, found dead, sitting in a chair, fully dressed,

568
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,040
not in their night clothes, lying ill in bed, end quote.

569
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,040
Right.

570
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,440
Dr. Booth would bring this to the attention of her colleagues and mention this to Linda

571
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,120
Reynolds of the Brook Surgery in Hyde.

572
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:14,120
Linda, in turn, expressed concerns to the coroner of the South Manchester district about

573
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,080
the high death rate among Harold's patients.

574
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,800
So now it's like telephone, right?

575
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:18,800
Yeah.

576
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:19,800
Everyone's telling everyone.

577
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,320
Specifically, she was concerned about the high amounts of cremation forms for elderly

578
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,120
women that he needed to sign off on.

579
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,840
Unfortunately, this was mere speculation at this time and police do not have any reason

580
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,360
to keep this investigation open.

581
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:32,360
Yeah.

582
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:33,360
There's no real evidence.

583
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:35,760
They would close the case on April 17th, 1998.

584
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,920
Well, Harold wasn't writing it down, so of course they have no evidence.

585
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:39,920
Yeah.

586
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:40,920
That's it.

587
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,720
Actually, this is funny that you say that because what police did not know at the time

588
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,920
was that Harold had rewritten patients' records after he killed them to make their deaths appear

589
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:50,920
harmless.

590
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:51,920
What?

591
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,960
So he would, I'll get into it more, but he would kill someone and then go back into their

592
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,480
records and rewrite the past couple of months and it looked like they were ill when they

593
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:02,480
weren't.

594
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,480
So I think we assume at this point that Harold's killing these people.

595
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,480
Yeah, obviously.

596
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,960
He's the title of the episode.

597
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,640
After the investigation was closed, Harold would go on to kill three more people.

598
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:20,560
On June 24th, 1998, 81-year-old former Hyde Mayor Kathleen Grundy was found dead in her

599
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:21,560
home.

600
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,560
The mayor.

601
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,320
Kathleen's death came as a shock to the whole community, but especially to her family and

602
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,800
friends who knew her as an active, healthy person.

603
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,440
She was known to have endless energy and constantly was helping local charities.

604
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,120
It was not until she failed to show up at the age concern club that people noticed she

605
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:39,120
was missing.

606
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:40,120
Age concern club?

607
00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:42,600
It's like a charity, a local charity.

608
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,320
Here she would help serve meals to elderly pensioners and she was known for being extremely

609
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:47,880
punctual and reliable.

610
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,680
So when she did not show up, her friends immediately knew something was wrong.

611
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,160
Oh my gosh, that's gotta be such a scary feeling to go through.

612
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,280
Knowing your friend is never not showing up and if they do, they call.

613
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,760
That's not happening, you're like, oh my god.

614
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,200
Her friends went to her house to check up on her and found her lying on her couch, fully

615
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,200
dressed and deceased.

616
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,360
The friends immediately called her GP, Dr. Harold Shipman.

617
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:16,080
Harold stated that he had visited the home a few hours prior and was the last person

618
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:17,280
to see her alive.

619
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,200
However, he claimed that he was just there to take some blood samples for studies on

620
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,120
aging and although he claimed she was alive when he left, he would be the one to later

621
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:30,960
pronounce her dead and then phone her daughter, Angela Woodruff.

622
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:36,720
So now he says that he's doing a research on blood samples, a research project on aging.

623
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:37,720
He needs blood samples.

624
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,000
Well he probably has to explain away maybe the puncture mark on her arm.

625
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,080
Yeah, exactly.

626
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,760
So again, Angela Woodruff is the daughter of Kathleen.

627
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,480
When asked if he could do an examination of her mother, Harold told Angela that she died

628
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,880
of old age and a post mortem exam was unnecessary because he had been with her shortly before

629
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:54,880
her death.

630
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,320
She was like 81.

631
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,520
Unless she agrees to an autopsy.

632
00:26:58,520 --> 00:26:59,520
Right.

633
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:00,520
Yes.

634
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:01,520
Smashing.

635
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:02,520
Smashing.

636
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:08,520
This is not funny.

637
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,840
Following Kathleen's burial, Angela returned home to be met with a troubling phone call

638
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,880
from solicitors.

639
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,160
A solicitor in the UK does not mean what it does in the US.

640
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,720
A solicitor is a qualified legal professional who provides specialist legal advice on different

641
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,960
areas of law and is responsible for representing and defending a client's legal interests.

642
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:28,960
Okay.

643
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,840
That's from the University of Law just to put my source in there.

644
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,920
So like a court appointed attorney kind of thing?

645
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:34,920
Kind of, yeah.

646
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,480
It's like more of a right.

647
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:38,480
Yes.

648
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,440
An easily accessible right versus you have to be a defendant.

649
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,760
Well Angela was also a solicitor herself so I think that's another reason why her

650
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,760
colleague called her.

651
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,880
But she would be concerned when her colleague Brian informed her that a will had been made

652
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,640
allegedly by Kathleen.

653
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:54,640
What?

654
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,880
Brian went on to explain that he had reason to believe that Kathleen may not have been

655
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,360
the one to write up this will and it may have been a fake.

656
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:05,920
The will stated that Kathleen was not interested in giving any of her money or assets to Angela

657
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:12,720
or her children and instead left all of it about 386,000 pounds to Harold Shipman.

658
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:13,720
Bullshit.

659
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,520
Like Monica Melissa Patterson.

660
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:16,520
Yeah right.

661
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,920
He's not writing it down but he sure is creating a lot of big paper trail.

662
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,000
Yeah and this just to get everyone the conversion rate, it would be the equivalent to nearly

663
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,400
$500,000 in the US.

664
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:32,080
The funny thing was Angela immediately knew that this was fake considering her own firm

665
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:38,000
had the original copy of Kathleen's will which she had written in 1986.

666
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,680
Her suspicions became fact when Angela got a hold of this new will and noted that it

667
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,800
was badly typed and poorly worded.

668
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,400
She would state about this quote, my mother was a meticulously tidy person that thought

669
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,360
of her signing a document which is so badly typed didn't make any sense.

670
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,040
The signature looks strange, it looks too big.

671
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,760
The concept of mom signing a document leaving everything to her doctor was unbelievable.

672
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,920
It wasn't a case of look, she's not left me anything in her will end quote.

673
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,920
So she's like this guy's dumb as fuck.

674
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:17,000
I done did leave everything to Mr. Harold Shipman cause he's been a good doctor and

675
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,000
he's the best.

676
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,000
He's the best.

677
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,000
He's just a bunch of run on sentences.

678
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,000
He's the best.

679
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,000
Yeah and and and.

680
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:28,000
Initially, Andrea actually thought that Harold was being framed for the murder of her mother.

681
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,000
But with further investigation she realized the truth.

682
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,400
Harold had murdered her mother for money.

683
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,400
That's so awful.

684
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,400
It's awful.

685
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,760
Like why, how is anybody's life worth any money?

686
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,920
Worth any money, seriously.

687
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,640
She would immediately go to local police where the case reached Inspector Superintendent

688
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,520
Bernard Postles.

689
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,280
Bernard looked over the evidence that Angela had gathered and almost immediately knew it

690
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:52,720
was accurate.

691
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,920
He would state about the forged will quote, you only have to look at it once and you start

692
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,160
thinking it's like something off a John Bull printing press.

693
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,000
You don't have to have 20 years of detective to know it's fake.

694
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,560
Maybe he thought he was being clever, an old lady, nobody around her.

695
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,200
Look at it, it's a bit tacky.

696
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,280
But everyone knew she was sharp as a tack.

697
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:11,280
Maybe it was his arrogance.

698
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:12,280
Yep.

699
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:13,280
Ooh, his arrogance.

700
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,520
Again, man with the quips of these people.

701
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,080
I know, they're nice.

702
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,080
Clever.

703
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:19,600
British people are quick.

704
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,640
I just love the verbiage.

705
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,880
Detective Postles now knew what he had feared.

706
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,360
Dr. Shipman had a strong motive.

707
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,880
Meanwhile, Kathleen's body was exhumed at the request of the coroner and investigators

708
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,320
were able to detect traces of diamorphine, which is heroin.

709
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,000
Exhuming a body is not very common, but on a very common occurrence for any British police

710
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,440
force and especially during this time.

711
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,880
In fact, up until this point, the Greater Manchester Police Department had not yet experienced

712
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:48,880
this.

713
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,080
With Detective Postles stating quote, we did not have one officer who had ever taken part

714
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,520
in an exhumation.

715
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,680
We asked the National Crime Squad for advice.

716
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:57,680
Oh wow.

717
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,160
Yeah, isn't that crazy that like, no, like they had been so long since they had exhumed

718
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,160
the body that nobody on the force remaining had done it before?

719
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,520
That's incredible.

720
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,680
When questioned about this, Harold claimed that Kathleen was a secret addict and had

721
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,040
even shown them notes he had written down about encounters with her addiction.

722
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,280
Yeah, after the fact.

723
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,680
Yeah, he's like, oh this looks like a Atari, here in my notebook, this is all the evidence

724
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:20,680
you need.

725
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,920
Yeah, however, when police looked further into his computer records, they realized that

726
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,880
the notes had been taken after Kathleen's death because they can look at that shit.

727
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:28,880
What an idiot.

728
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,880
Yeah.

729
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:30,880
What an idiot.

730
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,760
My face is all scrunched.

731
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:33,760
I'm an idiot.

732
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,400
A few months later in August of 1998, a taxi driver by the name of John Shaw came forward

733
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:44,080
to police and told them that he believed that Harold had murdered 21 of his elderly patients.

734
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,240
His name wasn't Rick Shaw.

735
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,240
No, John Shaw.

736
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,600
Oh, well he's a taxi driver, so I just assumed.

737
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,160
Is that from Taxi Driver?

738
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:56,320
No, it's in reference to a Rick Shaw, which is like a person pulling a wagon.

739
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:57,320
That's called a Rick Shaw.

740
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:58,320
Oh, that's funny.

741
00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,320
No?

742
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:00,320
Yeah.

743
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:01,320
Okay.

744
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:07,000
So again, he said that he believes that Harold had killed 21 people and he said he believed

745
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,480
this because he had driven many of these people to the hospital and they were in seemingly

746
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:11,880
good health.

747
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,080
That is, until they interacted with Harold.

748
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,560
The team of investigators working the case would become painfully familiar with the

749
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,280
exhumation process throughout this whole thing.

750
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,320
Out of the 15 people Harold was thought to have killed, nine of them were buried and

751
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,920
six were cremated.

752
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,880
These took hair and tissue samples from Kathleen's exhumation and would take it upon themselves

753
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,080
to sneakily do a search of the doctor's office in Harold's house.

754
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,880
They were at the office when he was home and then they were at his home when he was

755
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:40,880
asleep.

756
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,920
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

757
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:44,920
blah, blah, blah, blah.

758
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,360
They made sure to get the warrant without creating a fuss and would search the office

759
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,120
before Harold arrived so he did not have time to change any setting or hide any evidence.

760
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,600
Once Harold arrived at the office, his reaction to officers searching the place was not concerned

761
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,880
and in fact was rather arrogant as the officers read the search warrant to him.

762
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:01,880
Still that word.

763
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,520
He was like, oh yeah, go for it, just look at everything, I don't have anything to hide

764
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:11,720
and blah, blah, blah.

765
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:16,440
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766
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,520
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767
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,520
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768
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,920
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769
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,240
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770
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:38,720
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771
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,320
Out of all things collected from the office, perhaps the most damning piece of evidence

772
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,120
was the typewriter that Harold used to type up the fake will of Kathleen's.

773
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,120
Oh my color well.

774
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,120
He's just not very smart.

775
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,480
It's like, it literally says right here, like, it's got an imprint on the back that

776
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,480
says Kathleen's last little intestines.

777
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:54,480
Yeah, like you're a doctor.

778
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,240
But you're fucking dumb.

779
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,760
Do you think that, again, it's that knowledge, not understanding, right?

780
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,640
Like he thinks all of his knowledge makes him that smart.

781
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:04,640
Makes him smart.

782
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,640
Yeah.

783
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:06,640
He's not.

784
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:07,640
He's not.

785
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:08,640
That sounded like the same, he's not.

786
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:09,640
He's not.

787
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:10,640
He's not.

788
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:11,640
He's not.

789
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:12,640
Which one's which, listeners?

790
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,480
Do you think that because Kathleen was the mayor, that's probably why they looked into

791
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:17,480
it?

792
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,920
Or do you think that he, like, he would have continued to get away with this if he hadn't

793
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,920
chosen someone that was a bigger target?

794
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,600
I think that might be part of it, but I also think that the daughter was like so gung-ho

795
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,520
about like, oh no, like we need to fucking do something about this.

796
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,520
And she had that legal background.

797
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,280
I think that was another thing that kind of kickstarted it.

798
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:37,280
Good on you, Angela.

799
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,880
Yeah, absolutely.

800
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,480
When questioned about this, Harold came up with the hard to believe story about how Kathleen

801
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,760
borrowed his typewriter from time to time.

802
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,920
Like they're like, why does this typewriter match the one that wrote this will?

803
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,880
And he's like, well, she just borrowed my typewriter.

804
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,000
She didn't think to mention that before this?

805
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,840
Over just to type up her last will and testament.

806
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,640
And not only that, but she didn't give it to her daughter.

807
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,520
She gave it to me, her doctor, who just so happened to be the beneficiary.

808
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,520
Yeah.

809
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,120
Obviously, what else would it be?

810
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,120
Duh.

811
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,120
Beyond a reasonable doubt?

812
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:08,120
I don't think so.

813
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,120
I don't think so.

814
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,920
So police did not ever believe this, of course.

815
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,920
And forensic investigations were used to determine it was indeed the typewriter used to write

816
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,480
the will as well as other fake documents.

817
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,400
The search of Harold's house revealed medical records, some unusual jewelry, and a pigsty

818
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,680
of a living area.

819
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:26,680
What was the jewelry?

820
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:27,680
Oh, no.

821
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,640
I think it was jewelry that obviously wasn't his.

822
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:31,880
It's like women's.

823
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,160
Yeah.

824
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,520
Police were shocked to see that a doctor was living in filth and trash, because that's

825
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,000
not, I mean, they have to have a very clean space, like workspace.

826
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,000
Yeah.

827
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,520
I don't know why I'm imagining Charlie Day in my head, you know, just like a little

828
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,520
conspiracy theory, you know.

829
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,360
Pointing to this thing.

830
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:50,360
There.

831
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:55,080
Meanwhile, toxicologist Julie Evans sent in her report on the cause of Kathleen's death,

832
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,720
stating that she had a fatal amount of morphine in her system.

833
00:35:57,720 --> 00:35:58,720
Oh my god.

834
00:35:58,720 --> 00:35:59,720
There's that morphine.

835
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:05,640
However, she also noted that Kathleen's death occurred within three hours of the overdose.

836
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,320
Detective Postal's remembers thinking that it was weird that Harold could have used,

837
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,240
would have used morphine as a means of death, as he would have known that morphine stays

838
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,120
in the body tissue for dozens of years.

839
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,920
So he thought he was going to get away with it.

840
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:18,920
Of course.

841
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,240
I was set about this quote.

842
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:21,440
I was surprised.

843
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,440
I anticipated that I would have had difficulty if he gave them something in a way of poison

844
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,400
lost in background substance.

845
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,360
It was an unexpected bonus once I had checked that Kathleen Gromney did not take it herself.

846
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:32,360
Yeah.

847
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:33,360
Oh my gosh.

848
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:34,360
Yeah.

849
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,680
Apparently morphine stays in the body tissue for fucking years and years and years, even

850
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,680
after death.

851
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:38,680
Yeah, anytime.

852
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:39,680
That's interesting.

853
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:40,800
And being a doctor, Harold would know that.

854
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:41,800
You should know that.

855
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,600
Well, I wonder if that he put in this fake will, I want to be cremated with on the head,

856
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:47,600
you know, like, oh, okay.

857
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:48,600
Yeah, we'll do that.

858
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:49,600
I'm not sure what you did.

859
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:50,600
What?

860
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,640
That lady voice that you did was funny.

861
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,120
I want to be cremated.

862
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,120
Can I be cremated?

863
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,120
Same.

864
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,120
Same.

865
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:03,960
With other speculations arising, detectives wanted to look further into the case, a case

866
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,400
which seemed to not have just one victim.

867
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,000
Out of the 15 sought victims, the ones who had been cremated had all died following a

868
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,920
house call by Harold.

869
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,320
When talking to the families, detectives noted that Harold would try to urge them to

870
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,280
cremate their loved ones and stress that no further investigation into their deaths

871
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,400
were necessary and he would explain away what happened.

872
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,080
But like, how is that his call?

873
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,160
Like your job's done, they're dead.

874
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,160
Yeah.

875
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,160
You're a doctor.

876
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,160
You fix people for a living.

877
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,160
Yeah.

878
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,160
So what is it any of your business that-

879
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,160
It's a professional opinion.

880
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,160
My professional opinion, they need to be cremated.

881
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,160
Yeah.

882
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,160
They need to be cremated.

883
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,160
That's my professional opinion.

884
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,160
Yeah, that's probably exactly how he sounds.

885
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,160
Except they probably have lot of this.

886
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:48,880
That's actually a re-cremated.

887
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:49,880
Sorry.

888
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:50,880
That's a forced job.

889
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:51,880
I'm done.

890
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:52,880
Okay.

891
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:53,880
Sorry, all.

892
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:54,880
We're going to stop bantering now.

893
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,880
We said in the beginning of this, let's not banter too much.

894
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:01,280
Let's not banter too much.

895
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,360
Although some families were surprised to hear of the illnesses their loved ones seemingly

896
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,520
had, they did not really question Harold when he told them.

897
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,320
After all, he was the family doctor.

898
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,760
They were under a lot of stress and that was something that Harold took advantage of.

899
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:13,760
Yeah.

900
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,960
In the rare case that Harold was questioned by the family, he had the notes written

901
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,720
down to show them of the alleged illnesses that led to the deaths.

902
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:24,560
It would later be found out that these notes were all edited within hours of each patient's

903
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:25,560
death.

904
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:26,560
It's disgusting.

905
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,560
Why wouldn't he do that beforehand?

906
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,920
Why did he have to change them all after?

907
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:31,920
What if they don't die?

908
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,360
Then all these records sound like they were dying and then it's a miracle.

909
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:36,960
He's going to have a lot of money out of that.

910
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:37,960
He should have.

911
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:38,960
He should have.

912
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,800
He could have been one of those snake oil tents with the-

913
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:41,800
It's very true.

914
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,800
You are hailed.

915
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,880
In the specific case of Kathleen, Harold would stick to his story that she was a drug user

916
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,840
and she overdosed.

917
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,080
On top of this, Harold would consider himself an avid computer user, although he hated the

918
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,560
idea of new technology when it first came out.

919
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,400
You're an avid computer user, but you didn't know that they hold records.

920
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:01,720
Okay, BTK.

921
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:05,240
Needing to be superior, though, he would quickly learn how to utilize the programs offered

922
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:08,800
on the computer and thought he knew everything about the device.

923
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,080
What he failed to realize was that the hard drive on his computer kept a record of every

924
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:18,000
change he made to a patient file and the investigators had access to that information.

925
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,040
Harold would be arrested on September 7th, 1988 and taken in for questioning.

926
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,120
Can you imagine that feeling?

927
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,840
I mean, because we all- well, I mean, I did.

928
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,880
At one point it was like, I could totally just use this computer and do whatever and

929
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:32,880
blah, blah, blah.

930
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:33,880
Yeah.

931
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:34,880
Like, there's no paper trail.

932
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:35,880
And no, there always is.

933
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:36,880
There always is.

934
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:37,880
There always has been.

935
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:38,880
Always has been.

936
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:39,880
Isn't that weird?

937
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:40,880
It's wild.

938
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,680
And then I just explained it away in his own mind, like, oh, well, that's new technology.

939
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,080
How am I supposed to know about that?

940
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,080
It's new.

941
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:47,080
This new fangled thing.

942
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,080
Yeah.

943
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,080
So what I googled cyanide.

944
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,320
Yeah, seriously, how to write a will.

945
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:54,320
Will templates.

946
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:55,320
Yeah.

947
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,920
A detective would interview Harold around this time and I'll read the transcript now.

948
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:01,320
Officer.

949
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,320
This is all in quotes.

950
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,320
Quote.

951
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,200
I'll just remind you of the date of this lady's death, 11th May, 1998.

952
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,560
After three o'clock that afternoon, you have endorsed the computer with the date of 1st

953
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,200
October, 97, which is 10 months prior.

954
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:14,200
Chest pains.

955
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:15,200
Harold.

956
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,200
I have no recollection of me putting that on the machine.

957
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:19,200
Officer.

958
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,520
It's your passcode.

959
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:21,520
It's your name.

960
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:22,520
Harold.

961
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,120
It doesn't alter the fact that I can't remember doing it.

962
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,120
Officer.

963
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,080
You attended the house at three o'clock.

964
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,600
That's when you murdered this lady.

965
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,400
You went back to the surgery and immediately started altering this lady's medical records.

966
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,480
You tell me why you needed to do that.

967
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:36,480
Harold.

968
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,000
There's no answer.

969
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,160
Like fuck off, dude.

970
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,720
I have epilepsy.

971
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:44,880
Yeah, I accidentally rewrote all these medical records because I was having blackouts.

972
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,560
Yeah, I was having blackouts.

973
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:51,000
In a separate recorded interview, Detective Constable Marie Stoninski questioned Harold

974
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,320
about a different death.

975
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,880
That of 73-year-old Winifred Miller.

976
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:55,880
Officer.

977
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:56,880
Quote.

978
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,440
The levels were such that this woman actually died from toxicity of morphine, not as you

979
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,120
wrongly diagnosed.

980
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,600
In plain speaking, you murdered her.

981
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,800
One feature of these statements from the family was that they couldn't believe their own

982
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,560
mother had chest pains, angina, and hadn't been informed.

983
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:12,560
Harold.

984
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:13,560
By.

985
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:14,560
By whom?

986
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:15,560
Officer.

987
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:16,560
By her.

988
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:17,560
Harold.

989
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:18,560
By her.

990
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:19,560
Thank you.

991
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:20,560
Officer.

992
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,360
They also found it hard to believe because she didn't have a history of chest complaints

993
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,080
and heart disease and angina.

994
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:26,400
Did she, Doctor?

995
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,400
Harold.

996
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,320
If it's written on the records, then she had the history and therefore, officer.

997
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,080
The simple truth is you fabricated a history to cover what you've done.

998
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,520
You've murdered her and you make up a history of angina and chest pain so that you could

999
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:43,080
issue a death certificate and placate this poor woman's family, didn't you?

1000
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,080
Harold.

1001
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:45,080
No.

1002
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,080
Officer.

1003
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,000
We've got a statement from a detective, Sergeant John Ashley, who works in the field

1004
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,240
of computers.

1005
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:54,200
He has made a thorough examination of your computer, Doctor, and the medical records contained

1006
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:55,200
on it.

1007
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,560
What he's found is that there are a number of entries that have been incorrectly placed

1008
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,960
on this record to falsely mislead and to indicate this woman had a history of angina

1009
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,560
and chest pains.

1010
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,800
What have you got to say about that, Doctor?

1011
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:07,800
Harold?

1012
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,800
Nothing.

1013
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,000
Like, I can't stand that.

1014
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,800
Sorry, that was a long transcript, but I can't stand when it's like, I've been caught.

1015
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:16,800
Me.

1016
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,200
Like, I'm pouting now.

1017
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,200
Yeah.

1018
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:20,320
I can't fucking admit what I did.

1019
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,120
I can't take accountability for what I fucking did.

1020
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,600
I'm just gonna make you look like the idiot for questioning me and I'm just gonna say nothing.

1021
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:26,600
Right.

1022
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,360
Cause if I say nothing and I admit to nothing, then I'm not guilty.

1023
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,800
Even if I get convicted, I'm still not guilty because I never confessed.

1024
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:34,800
I'm just gonna say that.

1025
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:35,800
That's so annoying.

1026
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,000
Hey, next time we have a transcript like that, we should do back and forth.

1027
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,000
We definitely should.

1028
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,000
I didn't think about that.

1029
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,600
We were talking about something like that recently, that's why.

1030
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,120
Clearly Harold was unwilling to cooperate with authorities, even when presented with

1031
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,640
evidence that clearly showed his guilt.

1032
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,480
Harold Shipman's trial would begin on October 5th, 1999.

1033
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,040
Harold's defense attorney, Nicola Davies, would begin the trial by asking that it be

1034
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:01,220
halted.

1035
00:43:01,220 --> 00:43:05,960
She claimed that Harold could not receive a fair trial because of the poor, quote, inaccurate,

1036
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,840
misleading, end quote, coverage of the case.

1037
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,680
The prosecution, Mr. Henriquez, responded that the reports on the case had actually

1038
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,800
been beneficial as they helped families with elderly loved ones that had passed get closure

1039
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,800
and answers.

1040
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,440
In the second attempt, Ms. Davies asked that the court hold three separate trials as Kathleen

1041
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,320
Grundy's death had an alleged motive and the others did not.

1042
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,840
The prosecution argued that since the cases were all related, they should all be in the

1043
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:32,840
same trial.

1044
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:33,840
I think so.

1045
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,840
I mean, I kind of, they're all with the same MO.

1046
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:37,840
Yeah.

1047
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,840
I mean, other than the motive.

1048
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:40,840
Yeah.

1049
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:41,840
Yeah.

1050
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,000
The money, like the other thing.

1051
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,000
The money is the thing.

1052
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,640
The third time around, Ms. Davies shocked the counselors and the whole court with her

1053
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,520
new proposal.

1054
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,120
Evidence referred to in volume eight be thrown out.

1055
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,440
Volume eight had detailed how Harold had gotten morphine from 28 different patient records,

1056
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,520
many of whom had died.

1057
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,760
It also showed that Harold was continuing to fill the scripts after the patient's deaths

1058
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,680
and allegedly kept the drugs for his own use.

1059
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,240
So he was also using it?

1060
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:12,600
Lastly, volume eight suggested that Harold prescribed very strong opioids to many patients

1061
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:13,920
that did not need them.

1062
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,560
So yeah, it seems like he was still abusing drugs.

1063
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,120
So what, do you remember that one case we did where people were, where was it?

1064
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,740
Oh my goodness.

1065
00:44:22,740 --> 00:44:25,840
Who was drinking a lot and forcing the other, the other.

1066
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,040
Gilbert, Paul, Jordan.

1067
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:29,040
Paul Jordan, Gilbert.

1068
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:30,040
I think Gilbert, Paul, Jordan.

1069
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:31,040
I think Gilbert, Paul, Jordan.

1070
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:32,040
Yeah.

1071
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,040
That it kind of, do you think it's kind of one of those where like he wants to get really

1072
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,280
fucked up and high and stuff and then he wants to force other people to get fucked up and

1073
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:40,280
high?

1074
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:41,280
That's actually a good point.

1075
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:42,280
It might be.

1076
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,800
It might be like remembering his mom in a sick way, like remembering the morphine with

1077
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:46,800
his mom.

1078
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:47,800
Oh, that's so true.

1079
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,600
And because they're little ladies, most of them.

1080
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:50,600
Oh my gosh.

1081
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:51,600
Put it in another misery.

1082
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:52,600
That's a lot.

1083
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,200
So again, those are the three different proposals that the defense had kind of immediately when

1084
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:58,200
court started.

1085
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,880
She was like, hold on, let me give you like three different options for how we're going

1086
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:00,880
to do this.

1087
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:01,880
Yeah.

1088
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,680
After considering the defense's three proposals, Mr. Justice Forbes explained why he would

1089
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,280
be denying each one.

1090
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:13,160
The trial would go on with Harold being held on 15 murder charges and volume eight remaining

1091
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,080
in evidence.

1092
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,560
The following Monday, October 11th, 1999, the jury would be gathered and the trial would

1093
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,040
resume.

1094
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,600
The main prosecutor, Richard Henriquez, would state about the victims, quote, none of those

1095
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,120
buried nor indeed cremated were prescribed morphine nor diamorphine.

1096
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,320
All of them died most unexpectedly.

1097
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,880
All of them had seen Dr. Shipman on the day of their death.

1098
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,280
He would also end quote.

1099
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,600
He would also dismiss the possibility of euthanasia or mercy killing as none of the patients were

1100
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,840
terminally ill.

1101
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,000
He would suggest that Harold liked what he was doing for a while, stating, quote, he

1102
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,720
was exercising the ultimate power of controlling life and death and repeated the act so often

1103
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,680
he must have found the drama of taking life to his taste.

1104
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:56,680
Oh, that's disgusting.

1105
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:57,680
That's fucking gross.

1106
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,920
Angela Woodruff would testify for the prosecution.

1107
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,360
Again, this is Kathleen's daughter.

1108
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:08,080
She would recall a conversation that her and Harold had after her mother's death, quote,

1109
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,480
exactly what he said was difficult to remember.

1110
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,000
It's very hazy because I was very, very upset.

1111
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,840
Dr. Shipman said he had been with my mother on the morning of her death.

1112
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,520
He said he had seen her at home, end quote.

1113
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:25,160
She was unable to recall why Harold was at the home in the first place.

1114
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,200
Among other witnesses testifying, an expert witness called Dr. John Rutherford was brought

1115
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:30,740
to the stand.

1116
00:46:30,740 --> 00:46:34,600
He described the grueling task of testing tissue samples and discovered that Kathleen's

1117
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:39,280
fingerprints were nowhere on the will, suggesting she had never touched it.

1118
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:40,280
Like duh.

1119
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:41,280
Duh.

1120
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,800
In the second week of the trial, Harold's former colleagues were called.

1121
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,240
First Marian Guildchrist would take the stand and immediately begin crying.

1122
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:53,680
She stated that during a conversation with Harold, he would tell her, quote, I read

1123
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,200
thrillers and on the evidence they have, I would have me guilty.

1124
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,080
The only thing I did wrong was not having her cremated.

1125
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,120
If I had had her cremated, I wouldn't be having all this trouble.

1126
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:04,120
All this trouble.

1127
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,920
Oh, it's troubling for you to still be alive.

1128
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:08,920
Absolutely.

1129
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:09,920
Everybody's bothering me.

1130
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:11,520
Seriously.

1131
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,320
Other witnesses were called, Harold stating about Kathleen's death, quote, If I could

1132
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,440
bring her back, I would say look at all the trouble it's caused.

1133
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,080
I was going to say I didn't want the money, but because of all this trouble, I will have

1134
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,080
it, end quote.

1135
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,960
I was gonna say I didn't really care about the money, but this is just how much trouble

1136
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:27,960
I deserve it.

1137
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:28,960
I went through all of this trouble.

1138
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:29,960
I deserve it.

1139
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,600
All of the trouble to get this money.

1140
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,440
It's disgusting.

1141
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,080
At this point in the trial, it was becoming abundantly clear that Harold was responsible

1142
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,760
for the deaths of dozens of people.

1143
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,920
77 year old Lizzie Adams would be one of these victims.

1144
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,480
Lizzie was known for her love of dancing with her partner William Catlow, who would stop

1145
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,280
by to visit Lizzie on the day of her death.

1146
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,760
When he arrived, William would come across Harold examining Lizzie's bountiful collection

1147
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,840
of porcelains and crystal.

1148
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,560
In the next room, Lizzie's lifeless body.

1149
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:01,560
What?

1150
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:06,400
William rushed to Lizzie, Lizzie's aid, stating to the court about this, quote, I just burst

1151
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:07,400
past him.

1152
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:08,400
She felt warm.

1153
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,920
I said I can feel her pulse, end quote.

1154
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:16,360
William would then testify that Harold would respond to this by stating, quote, no, that's

1155
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:17,360
yours.

1156
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,760
I will cancel the ambulance, end quote.

1157
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,800
However, telephone records would later indicate that Harold did not call to cancel the ambulance,

1158
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,200
as a call was never placed to them in the first place.

1159
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:28,200
What?

1160
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:29,800
Oh my gosh, this is madness.

1161
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:30,800
Madness.

1162
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,240
And he's just like hanging in a bell.

1163
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:33,240
Looking at her fucking collectibles.

1164
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:34,240
Yeah.

1165
00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:35,600
Probably planning on stealing them.

1166
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,240
Sounds like a motive to me.

1167
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:41,480
In another case of Nora Natal, her son, Anthony would testify that he left his mother alone

1168
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,360
on the date of her death for just 20 minutes.

1169
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,680
He would come home to find Harold leaving their home in a hurry.

1170
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,440
Anthony would testify, quote, I asked him what was wrong.

1171
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,000
He said I have rung an ambulance for her, end quote.

1172
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:55,520
But I'm a doctor and I'm leaving.

1173
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:56,520
Bye.

1174
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,800
Anthony stated that he ran into the house and to his mother and began to try to wake

1175
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,160
her, trying to try to wake her.

1176
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:07,000
Shortly after this, Harold would enter the home yet again, touch Nora's neck and state,

1177
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:11,200
quote, I'm sorry, she is gone, end quote.

1178
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,680
Soon after her death, Nora's sister went to Harold's office to look through her medical

1179
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,800
records hoping to find some answers.

1180
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,640
Seemingly annoyed, Harold would say to his staff about this, quote, I knew it would happen,

1181
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,520
I told you it would happen, end quote.

1182
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,120
Like I told you her family was gonna come poking around.

1183
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,480
Yeah, because I want to know why their fucking family would die.

1184
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:31,480
Shrebbled that they're causing.

1185
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:32,480
Seriously, this is a good word.

1186
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,800
They're causing these hoodlums trouble.

1187
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,400
Harold would quickly make up some story about how Nora called before her death stating that

1188
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,520
she was sick and Harold just happened to be near by her home when he was paged regarding

1189
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,680
the matter.

1190
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:50,160
Like once phone records proved his story wrong, however, Harold quickly changed his story.

1191
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:55,560
Stupid, like you can't just explain everything away when the evidence is clear today.

1192
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,080
Not a smart man.

1193
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,080
This was not the only story Harold was making up to save his own ass, as again he had been

1194
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,520
caught lying about the reason he was at Kathleen Grundy's home in the first place.

1195
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,840
He stated he had been there to collect blood samples for a study he was doing on aging,

1196
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,440
like I said earlier.

1197
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,200
When questioned on what happened to the samples, Harold stated that they had gone for analysis.

1198
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:15,200
Oh, they're just gone.

1199
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,200
They're just gone.

1200
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:20,480
Although he thought he was fooling everybody, Harold was noted as lying once again when

1201
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,880
the prosecution stated that there was indeed no study on aging anywhere in his records.

1202
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,600
Like we looked through all of your shit, no study on aging.

1203
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,320
No study on aging.

1204
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,040
After being informed of this, Harold suddenly remembered what had actually happened to the

1205
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:34,040
samples.

1206
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,120
Oh my god, this guy is so bad.

1207
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:36,840
He's like irritating.

1208
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,160
He sounds like a child.

1209
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:39,160
He does.

1210
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:44,120
He said he had gotten back to his office and put the samples under a big pile of notes.

1211
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,840
And since they didn't get filed right away, they were no longer useful, so he just tossed

1212
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:48,840
them away.

1213
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:49,840
Yeah.

1214
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:50,840
Yeah, they got lost somewhere.

1215
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:51,840
I don't know, somebody might have taken them.

1216
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:52,840
I don't know.

1217
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:53,840
Like what?

1218
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,120
You don't take samples immediately to the lab?

1219
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:56,120
Right.

1220
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:57,120
Really?

1221
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:58,120
That's weird.

1222
00:50:58,120 --> 00:50:59,120
No.

1223
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,440
He throws them on the floor, like in his fridge or like...

1224
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:03,440
There was no samples.

1225
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:04,920
Just switch the samples.

1226
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:06,760
There was no samples.

1227
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:11,960
59-year-old Jean Lilly would also fall victim to Harold's heinous crimes.

1228
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,600
Her husband, Albert Lilly, would testify during the trial as well.

1229
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:16,600
Quote.

1230
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,040
He said, I have been with your wife for quite a while now, trying to persuade her to go

1231
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,920
to the hospital, but she won't go.

1232
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,040
The husband was out of the house during this time, obviously.

1233
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,040
Quote.

1234
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,640
I wanted to come home later and have a word with you and your wife, and I was too late.

1235
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:31,880
I said, what do you mean too late?

1236
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,400
He said, you are not listening to me carefully.

1237
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,200
It seemed as though Harold was trying to get Albert to guess what had happened to his wife.

1238
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:40,840
Like he was just going to go with that?

1239
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,600
Like he's like, I'm not going to tell you that she's dead.

1240
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:48,440
I want him to come to the realization and guess that she's not okay.

1241
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,040
So he tried to be...

1242
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,040
He was like, just be smarter about it.

1243
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:53,040
Yeah, essentially.

1244
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:54,360
Be smarter about it, your wife's dead, duh.

1245
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:55,360
Yeah.

1246
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:56,360
That's awful.

1247
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:57,360
How disgusting.

1248
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:58,360
Disgusting.

1249
00:51:58,360 --> 00:51:59,360
Disgusting.

1250
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,320
73-year-old Winnie Miller's daughter would get a similar phone call when she became another

1251
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:03,320
victim of Harold's.

1252
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,200
I mentioned her a second ago.

1253
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,920
Her daughter, Kathleen, would also testify, quote.

1254
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,880
He said, do you realize that your mother has been suffering from chest pains?

1255
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,400
And I said, no.

1256
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:17,280
He said, she called this morning and I came to see her and she refused treatment.

1257
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,600
So I says, well, I'll be up as soon as I can.

1258
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,760
He says, no, no, there's no need for that.

1259
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,760
So I said, has she gone to the hospital?

1260
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,400
There's no point in sending her to the hospital.

1261
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,680
And I just went silent then and he didn't say anything, neither.

1262
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:33,920
And then I just realized what he was not saying.

1263
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,240
And I said, do you mean my mother's dead?

1264
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:39,080
He says, I see you understand, end quote.

1265
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,480
Why wouldn't he say it though?

1266
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,040
He wants them to come to the conclusion.

1267
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:43,040
Why?

1268
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:44,040
I don't know.

1269
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:45,040
It's like some weird fucking game.

1270
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:46,040
Like it's a game.

1271
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:47,040
Yeah.

1272
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:48,040
Or maybe if they're like, oh, does she have a stroke?

1273
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:49,040
He'd be like, yep.

1274
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:50,040
Oh, yep.

1275
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:51,040
Yeah.

1276
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:52,040
Absolutely.

1277
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,520
And I feel like if they suggest that something was wrong, you can just say.

1278
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:55,520
Oh, yeah.

1279
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:56,520
She said her head was hurting.

1280
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:57,520
Oh, yeah.

1281
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:58,520
Exactly.

1282
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,520
Or even the fact that he was like, you don't know that your mother has heart problems?

1283
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:01,520
Yeah.

1284
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:02,520
Kind of daughter-oriented.

1285
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,440
Yeah, so bad.

1286
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,640
Harold was known as being extremely rude to one of his neighbors by the name of Gloria

1287
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:08,640
Ellis.

1288
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,640
And this is known as being part of his downfall.

1289
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,400
Gloria had actually witnessed Harold walking into Winnie Miller's home just hours before

1290
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,000
her death.

1291
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,280
Harold would leave and return later.

1292
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:25,560
Chief Inspector would explain about this second visit, quote, a neighbor talking about Gloria,

1293
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:30,320
quote, tea time, gets a knock on the door from Dr. Shipman saying he's come to see Winnie

1294
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:31,320
Fred Miller.

1295
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,240
He can see her in a chair and he thinks she's dead.

1296
00:53:34,240 --> 00:53:39,040
They go into the house and again, they find Winnie Fred Miller dead in a chair, end quote.

1297
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:40,040
Him and the neighbor?

1298
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,040
Yeah.

1299
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,120
So Harold had gone to Gloria's home to let her know that when he arrived to see her neighbor,

1300
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,360
he thought she'd be dead and he asked her to go with him to check.

1301
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,040
I don't know if he was like, I need a fucking second opinion alibi.

1302
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,160
Yeah.

1303
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:54,760
When Gloria asked him, quote, you were here before, weren't you?

1304
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:55,760
End quote.

1305
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:56,760
Harold didn't answer her.

1306
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,760
He goes, you have a heart problem too.

1307
00:53:58,760 --> 00:53:59,760
Yeah.

1308
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:00,760
Let me treat you.

1309
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:01,760
Yeah.

1310
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,360
Gloria then asked him, quote, has Winnie had a stroke, end quote, and Harold responded

1311
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:11,040
very irritably, quote, you stupid girl, end quote.

1312
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:12,040
This guy is a winner.

1313
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:13,040
He's just the worst.

1314
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:14,040
He's just a peach.

1315
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,440
On the contrary, Gloria was very smart and had documented the exact times that Harold

1316
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,160
had arrived at the home.

1317
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:20,160
Hell yeah.

1318
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,320
During her testimony, she made the court chuckle when she claimed to have been surprised when

1319
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,760
she learned that Harold was a doctor, stating, quote, I thought he was an insurance man,

1320
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:28,760
end quote.

1321
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:30,760
I thought it was a car sale.

1322
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:31,760
Yeah.

1323
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:32,760
It's a sleazeball.

1324
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:39,400
63 year old Ivy Lomas, another victim of Harold's, would be the only one who died in his office.

1325
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,080
Harold would later show his lack of empathy when Detective Sergeant Phillip Reed told

1326
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:47,800
the court that he had gone to the doctor's office to locate Ivy's next of kin, stating,

1327
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,720
quote, he was laughing.

1328
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:53,080
He said he considered her such a nuisance that he was having part of the seating area

1329
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:57,960
permanently reserved for Ivy with a plaque to the effect seat permanently reserved for

1330
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,960
Ivy Lomas, end quote.

1331
00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:00,960
What an ass.

1332
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:05,520
Like she showed up too many times in his office and bugged him when she was alive.

1333
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,160
He said, you're a doctor.

1334
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:08,160
Thank you.

1335
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:09,440
You're a fucking doctor.

1336
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,640
If you don't want to do it, then go then fucking quit.

1337
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:12,640
Be the undertaker.

1338
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,120
You don't have to be a doctor.

1339
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:15,640
Nobody's making you do this.

1340
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:16,640
Yeah, exactly.

1341
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,800
Even worse, Harold would go on to tell the then officer as he left the room that Ivy,

1342
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,600
quote, could have taken her last breath, end quote.

1343
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,240
Yet he made no effort to attempt CPR.

1344
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:30,800
Instead, he left her alone while he was treating other patients.

1345
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:35,160
Medical expert alone to like die in a room.

1346
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,960
Medical expert for the defense, Dr. Grenville, would explain to the court, quote, this was

1347
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:39,960
a medical emergency.

1348
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,640
I would have given my entire attention to this particular patient, end quote.

1349
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,240
Harold had given Ivy a lethal dose of morphine.

1350
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:48,740
It's true.

1351
00:55:48,740 --> 00:55:53,080
Even if he was the perpetrator of giving her the morphine, her body shutting down and

1352
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:55,760
all that other shit would have been a medical emergency.

1353
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:56,760
Absolutely.

1354
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:01,280
So even if he didn't claim to know what was going on or he claimed not to know what was

1355
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,920
going on, the person having these symptoms and side effects clearly needed your utmost

1356
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:06,920
attention.

1357
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:07,920
Absolutely.

1358
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:08,920
Wow.

1359
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,640
So, for example, Harold claimed that he never carried morphine at his office or on his person,

1360
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,000
so he couldn't have been the perpetrator.

1361
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,000
I never carry it in my pocket.

1362
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:16,000
I just never carry it in my hand.

1363
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:17,000
I don't carry it in my pocket.

1364
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:18,000
I put it in my shoe.

1365
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:24,400
There is a lot of direct quotes on the internet that you can find from the court proceedings,

1366
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,080
but all in all, it was like a super long grueling trial.

1367
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:31,880
There's a lot of like pretty much essentially line by line quotes.

1368
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:36,520
Judge Forbes took two weeks to dissect the evidence presented by both parties and stated

1369
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,520
at the end of the trial, quote, the allegation that the court had been charged with.

1370
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,520
The allegations could not be more serious.

1371
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,520
A doctor accused of murdering 15 patients.

1372
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,400
You will have heard evidence which may have aroused feelings of anger, strongest approval,

1373
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:51,760
disgust, profound dismay, or deep sympathy, end quote.

1374
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:57,040
On January 31st of the year 2000, the foreman declared all of the jury's verdicts unanimous,

1375
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:02,040
finding Harold Shipman guilty on 15 counts of murder and guilty on one count of forgery.

1376
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:07,560
Do you know how many or what the statistics are, I wonder, for a benched trial in the

1377
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:08,560
UK versus the US?

1378
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:09,560
I actually don't.

1379
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:11,560
Somebody Google that and let us know.

1380
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:13,560
We could do a mental breakdown on it or something.

1381
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:14,560
That's true.

1382
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:18,320
Different court proceedings in different countries.

1383
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,440
So Harold was known as showing no signs of emotion while the verdict was read.

1384
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,000
Harold's wife, Primrose, was also present for the verdict, wearing all black and remaining

1385
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,920
stoic the entire time their two children were there as well.

1386
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:33,880
Judge Forbes addressed Harold, quote, you have finally been brought to justice by the

1387
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:35,360
verdict of this jury.

1388
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,720
I have no doubt whatsoever that these are all true verdicts.

1389
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:43,680
The time has now come for me to pass sentence upon you for these wicked, wicked crimes.

1390
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,720
Each of your victims was your patient.

1391
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:49,880
You murdered each and every one of your victims by a calculated and cold-blooded perversion

1392
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,840
of your medical skills for your own evil and wicked purposes.

1393
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,960
You took advantage of and grossly abused their trust.

1394
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,880
You were, after all, each victim's doctor.

1395
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:04,000
I have little doubt that each of your victims smiled and thanked you as she submitted to

1396
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,880
your deadly administrations, end quote.

1397
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:08,880
It's awful.

1398
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:09,880
It is.

1399
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:11,680
They come to you for help.

1400
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,040
That's your job, is to help these people.

1401
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:19,040
And I'm sure as soon as they, oh, let me give you something to ease that, or this is just

1402
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:25,280
to relax you and people are thinking, thank God I am in the hands of a man who was going

1403
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:26,480
to take care of me.

1404
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,640
And then they die.

1405
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:33,080
With this, Judge Forbes sentenced Harold Shipman to 15 life sentences and four years

1406
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,400
on top for forgery.

1407
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,200
Judge Forbes was so upset about this case, in fact, that he broke a rule which would

1408
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:44,400
usually state that he write the home secretary about his recommendations of sentencing length.

1409
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:49,340
Quote, in the ordinary way, I would not do this in open court, but in your case, I am

1410
00:58:49,340 --> 00:58:53,800
satisfied justice demands that I make my views known at the conclusion of this trial.

1411
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:58,840
My recommendation will be that you spend the remainder of your days in prison, end quote.

1412
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,720
The trial lasted a total of 57 days.

1413
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:03,480
57, that's a lot.

1414
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,440
Almost three months, or two months, excuse me.

1415
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,480
So since we did not get a chance to explain each murder, I want to list all of the victims

1416
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:10,480
that Harold got charged with.

1417
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,600
There will be some repeats that I've mentioned, but just to give all the victims a name.

1418
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:21,840
So we have Marie West, Irene Turner, Lizzie Adams, Jean Lilly, Ivy Lomas, Muriel Grimshaw,

1419
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:29,480
Marie Quinn, Kathleen Wagstaff, Bianca Pomfret, Nora Natal, Pamela Hiller, Maureen Ward,

1420
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,560
Jennifer Meller, Joan Melia, and Kathleen Grundy.

1421
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,560
Which is awful.

1422
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,160
Again, I always say the amount of time it takes to say those names.

1423
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:44,440
I know, and it can be hugely impactful, for sure, to say every single one.

1424
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,880
There is some speculation that the large amount of drugs that Harold prescribed to nobody

1425
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:52,600
back in 1975 were actually used to kill many patients, and not for himself, like everyone

1426
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:53,600
thought.

1427
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:54,600
This is just a little aftermath.

1428
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,680
A clinical audit from the Department of Health actually estimates Harold's responsibility

1429
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:04,720
for the death of at least 236 patients over a 24-year time frame.

1430
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:05,720
Victims like deaths?

1431
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:06,720
Yeah.

1432
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:07,720
Oh my gosh.

1433
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:11,760
Professor Richard Baker examined the number and patterns of deaths in Harold's practice,

1434
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,840
and it showed significant increases in death rates in elderly patients during his time

1435
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:16,840
there.

1436
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,360
Do you know if it was mostly women?

1437
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:20,360
It didn't say.

1438
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,360
Yeah, it was mostly elderly women.

1439
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:27,200
So remember that interview that Harold did about how he wanted to help the mental health

1440
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:28,440
community and all that jazz?

1441
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:33,040
Yeah, so that was actually played again years later on the Tonight Show with Trevor McDonald.

1442
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:34,040
Oh, really?

1443
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,880
Yeah, just like, oh, by the way, listen to this piece of shit, talking about how he's

1444
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,400
going to help people.

1445
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:44,560
The Shipman inquiry would later blame the Greater Manchester Police for inadequate work efforts

1446
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:48,040
and inexperienced officers when the case was originally opened.

1447
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:54,040
Well, he had already been fined for what, like a malpractice-type issue, right?

1448
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:55,040
Yeah.

1449
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:59,640
And I mean, and- It's like this guy has priors, even if it's not violent.

1450
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:00,640
Right.

1451
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:01,640
There's something going on here.

1452
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:02,640
Yeah.

1453
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,400
He's capable of something more.

1454
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,840
Detectives working the case would later speculate that Harold may have wanted to get caught,

1455
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:12,640
which is why he gave up the typewriter so easily and used a traceable drug to kill people.

1456
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:13,880
No, I think he's just arrogant.

1457
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:14,880
I think so too.

1458
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:16,080
I think he just thinks it doesn't matter.

1459
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:22,600
I mean, there's that Isabella Guzman girl that, well, she's severely mentally ill,

1460
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,360
but she tried to say that she wasn't who she was.

1461
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:27,640
And like, no, we just finger printed you.

1462
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:28,640
We know you're Isabella.

1463
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:29,640
Yeah.

1464
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:30,640
And she's like, no, I'm not.

1465
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:31,640
My name's Stephanie or whatever.

1466
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:33,040
And it's like- She have DID?

1467
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:34,040
No.

1468
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:35,040
Oh.

1469
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:39,320
She was on schizophrenia spectrum or has since been diagnosed on the schizophrenia spectrum,

1470
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:40,440
but she murdered her mother.

1471
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,560
She stopped her like 57 times behind a closed door.

1472
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:44,560
Gee.

1473
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:45,560
And she ran from the house.

1474
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:46,560
They couldn't find her for like 24 hours.

1475
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:47,560
They found her in a parking garage.

1476
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:48,560
Right.

1477
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,440
And then at this point, she was like, I'm a homeless transient girl who has no DID though.

1478
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:53,440
Yeah.

1479
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,440
But she did murder her mom in a fit.

1480
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:57,280
There's definitely psychosis there for sure.

1481
01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:58,280
Oh, for sure.

1482
01:01:58,280 --> 01:01:59,280
Yeah.

1483
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:05,400
So just after, just over three years after sentencing on January 13th, 2004, Dr. Harold

1484
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:10,400
Shipman was discovered at Wakefield Prison at 6 a.m. hanging in his prison cell.

1485
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:11,920
He was 57 years old.

1486
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:13,480
I did not see that coming.

1487
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,760
Here I am like, gapping on about some other case.

1488
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:17,760
Yeah.

1489
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:18,760
I did not see that coming.

1490
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:19,760
Yeah.

1491
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:20,760
It was a wake up call.

1492
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:21,760
I mean, for only three years.

1493
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:26,560
And his death actually opened an investigation on how he was able to commit suicide in his

1494
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:27,560
cell.

1495
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:28,560
Yeah.

1496
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,640
As this is a common thing for death row inmates to attempt, unfortunately.

1497
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,440
Although he was on suicide watch at the first prison he was sent to, this was the second

1498
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,760
prison and the suicide watch did not continue with the move.

1499
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:40,760
Wow.

1500
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:45,320
A spokeswoman from Wakefield Prison stated about this quote, he was showing no signs whatsoever

1501
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:47,960
of pre-suicidal behavior at all, end quote.

1502
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:52,600
Well, I wonder if, I mean, things like a move can trigger certain responses.

1503
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:57,520
I bet he felt like any connections that he had made probably, you know, I mean, not that

1504
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:00,480
they're hanging out like the boy scouts.

1505
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:05,600
But you know, it's still, you get used to the staff and the COs and even just some of

1506
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:09,360
the other inmates and you feel maybe like established and you get moved.

1507
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:10,760
And it's like, well, I don't know anybody here.

1508
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,280
So, you know, fuck this.

1509
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:17,360
Victims families were noted as being very upset about Harold's death as they felt cheated

1510
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:22,080
knowing that he would never confess and that he kind of got the easy way out.

1511
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:29,040
Well, again, and I'm not saying that, you know, it's unfortunate either way, but that

1512
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:30,040
arrogance.

1513
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:31,040
Yeah, no, for sure.

1514
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:32,680
I mean, I'm not gonna let you kill me.

1515
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:34,720
Yeah, you don't kill me, I kill me.

1516
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:35,720
Yeah.

1517
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:36,720
And I'm not fucking sitting here until I die.

1518
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:38,440
Which that's probably where it came from.

1519
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:39,440
Yeah.

1520
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:44,440
I mean, you know, that sounds harsh to say, but it's, I mean, some people do that.

1521
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,560
I mean, Epstein, which some people don't agree with.

1522
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:48,560
Yeah.

1523
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:49,560
They think it's a conspiracy.

1524
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,120
I don't even know the fucking story.

1525
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:55,760
Home Secretary David Blunkett would later admit that celebrating Harold's death was tempting,

1526
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,800
stating, quote, you wake up and you receive a call telling you shipment has topped himself

1527
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,600
and you think, is it too early to open a bottle?

1528
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,360
And then you discover that everybody's very upset that he's done it.

1529
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:06,360
End quote.

1530
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:08,360
That is, that's harsh.

1531
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:09,360
Topped it.

1532
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:10,360
Topped.

1533
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:11,360
That I've never heard that term.

1534
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:12,360
Topped himself.

1535
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:13,360
Topped himself.

1536
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:14,360
That's not true for me.

1537
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:15,720
I guess it's the slang for obviously.

1538
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:16,720
Yeah.

1539
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:18,400
Suicide, but I don't know.

1540
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,160
That is some, I'm telling you these brits, they're witty.

1541
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,480
Get this fucking title.

1542
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:28,560
General Sir David Ramsbotham, who had formerly served as Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of

1543
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:33,960
Prisons, suggested that whole life sentencing should be replaced by indefinite sentencing

1544
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:39,200
in order to give some prisoners hope and hopefully reduce suicide in prison.

1545
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:40,200
That's interesting.

1546
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:41,680
I feel like that's fucked up though.

1547
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:42,680
Well, yeah.

1548
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:43,960
You're indefinite sentenced.

1549
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:45,320
You don't know when you're going to get out.

1550
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,160
But then it's like, if I don't know when I'm going to get out or if I'm going to get

1551
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:50,440
out, why am I going to kill myself?

1552
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:51,440
Right.

1553
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,120
And I understand what the effort there is for.

1554
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:55,680
I get the idea behind it.

1555
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:56,680
Yeah.

1556
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:57,680
Because it's horrible.

1557
01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:59,880
But that's still very interesting how that exists.

1558
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:00,880
Yeah.

1559
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:01,880
Yeah.

1560
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:02,880
I mean here in Texas, you know, they talk about.

1561
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:04,760
It's all over the place.

1562
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:05,760
Permanent sentences.

1563
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:06,760
Permanent sentences.

1564
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:07,760
Permanent sentences.

1565
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,480
Lastly, Harold's wife and children have never accepted that he was guilty and primrose remained

1566
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,080
loyal to him even when he was behind bars.

1567
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:16,080
Wow.

1568
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:17,080
Yeah.

1569
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:18,320
I don't think I could do that.

1570
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:19,320
I don't think I could either.

1571
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:20,320
I really think I could do that.

1572
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:21,320
If the shoe fits.

1573
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:22,320
I mean, shit.

1574
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,520
If the shoe fits.

1575
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:29,080
So it is suspected that he had personality disorder, maybe a couple different ones.

1576
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:32,720
I know we had like the grandiose itself that we were talking about earlier.

1577
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,320
I want to say even like PTSD from his mom's death.

1578
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:36,320
Yeah.

1579
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:38,600
And we're not excusing any of the behavior and just trying to find a reason for it.

1580
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:40,400
But yeah, that's the case.

1581
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:46,320
I think PTSD totally fits with that, you know, and again, when we were talking about how

1582
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:50,280
terrible of a liar he is, and I said, he sounds like a child.

1583
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:55,720
Well, that has to be and they, some people that go through PTSD also go through some

1584
01:05:55,720 --> 01:06:01,720
type of age regression as well to to remain in that nostalgic feeling.

1585
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:07,120
And I wonder if that doesn't give him some kind of an adrenaline type rush thinking about

1586
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:08,120
what?

1587
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:10,320
I mean, I just open my eyes to something.

1588
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:11,320
Go ahead.

1589
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:17,480
That's, you know, maybe this is that's where that comes from a little bit is like I, I

1590
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:19,120
I create these problems, right?

1591
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:21,960
The trouble he's talking about.

1592
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:26,400
But I'm only, you know, I'm going to participate in a very childlike way and that, I don't

1593
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:27,400
know, maybe.

1594
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:28,400
Yeah, no, I agree.

1595
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:33,960
I think that, I mean, I think there's a lot of shit going on, you know, but it's just

1596
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,840
an awful case like through and through and like, I always say things like this.

1597
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:41,840
It's like, imagine living like 81 fucking years and then some ass white takes you off

1598
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:42,840
this earth.

1599
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:43,840
Yeah.

1600
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:44,840
81 fucking years.

1601
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:46,680
I mean, he had a bunch of other victims that were in there like late sixties to eighties

1602
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:48,240
and it's still cause awful.

1603
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:50,640
You live your whole life just for that to happen.

1604
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:51,640
Yeah.

1605
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:52,640
It's really unfortunate.

1606
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:53,640
So sad.

1607
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:54,640
Yeah.

1608
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,000
I mean, this guy's been at the top of my list for a while and I finally sat down into

1609
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:02,440
the research, but I hope that the UK is at least, I don't want to say happy, but like,

1610
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:06,560
you know, appreciative that we did a case for them because I know we have so many listeners

1611
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:11,160
staying in your area.

1612
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:14,040
But thank you guys for joining us and listening.

1613
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,240
And if you have any suggestions, keep sending them our way.

1614
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,640
We'll be back next week with our cases and do you have any else?

1615
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:22,840
No, it was a really good, that was a good episode.

1616
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:23,840
Thanks.

1617
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:24,840
Yeah.

1618
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:25,840
Okay, we'll see you guys later.

1619
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:26,840
Love you.

1620
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:27,840
Bye.

1621
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:28,840
Bye.

1622
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:33,720
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1623
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:37,640
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