1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,000 Well hello! 2 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:02,000 Hello! 3 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:08,640 Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer, the Mental Breakdandy Breakie! 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,520 The one that was supposed to be posted last week! 5 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:13,520 What? 6 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,160 And now we're redoing it for you guys because we love you guys. 7 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:17,160 Yeah. 8 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:40,440 The 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,640 software, if you didn't see the post, actually deleted the episode that we had pre-recorded 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,560 and there was literally no way because I found out about 8 hours before I left for my out-of-time 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,000 vacation, but we are back and we are going to give you the content that you deserve 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,680 because we definitely weren't going to say, oh screw it, we're not going to do that episode 13 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:57,840 because Koala already knows what it is. 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,000 Yeah, I already know what it is, but it's going to be fun. 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,200 We're going to redo it and it's fine. 16 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:03,200 It's fine. 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:04,200 It's totally fine. 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,200 I think it's interesting. 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:06,200 It's a really good one. 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,880 So, before we get started, do you want to talk about our handles if anyone's listening 21 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:10,880 that's new? 22 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:11,880 Yes. 23 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,120 If you're interested, please visit us at diagnosingthekiller.com. 24 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,560 There you will find links to research and merch and more. 25 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,720 Check out our social media accounts at diagnosingthekiller. 26 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,720 Everywhere except for Twitter, which is at killerdiagnosis. 27 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:33,960 You can email us at diagnosingthekiller.com and buy your tickety tickets for the True 28 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:39,720 Crime Paranormal Podcast Festival in Austin late August. 29 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:41,480 It'll be our two-year anniversary. 30 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:42,480 It will. 31 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:43,840 And we already ordered all the merch. 32 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:44,840 Yes. 33 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,080 I'm very excited to see all of the little goodies. 34 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:48,080 So excited. 35 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:49,080 So excited. 36 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,160 What would be really cool is if any of you guys are planning on coming, buy a shirt and 37 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,600 then show up wearing it. 38 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:55,960 I would love to see that. 39 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,440 And we would definitely post that on our Instagram too. 40 00:01:58,440 --> 00:01:59,440 Heck yeah. 41 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:00,440 We definitely would. 42 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,720 If anybody shows up in our merch, we are posting on Instagram, I'm saying it now. 43 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:03,720 Yes. 44 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:04,720 Because I have control of the Instagram. 45 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:05,720 So you can't disagree. 46 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:06,720 All right. 47 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,120 Well, definitely, yeah, check us out. 48 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:10,120 Get those tickets. 49 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,320 It's a mere like two weeks away, which is wild. 50 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:13,320 So wild. 51 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,200 If you get an extra, you're 15% off with the coupon code DAKPOD. 52 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:18,200 Perfect. 53 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,520 Well, we look forward to seeing you guys. 54 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:21,520 Yeah. 55 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:22,520 Okay. 56 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:23,520 Shall we do it? 57 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:24,520 Yes. 58 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:25,520 All right. 59 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,520 So for this mental breakdown, we are going to be talking about the Milgram experiment. 60 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,120 And I know that we, you and I had already recorded this, so you know what it is. 61 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:32,120 How are we going to be like? 62 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:33,120 It's been a while. 63 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:34,120 Have you ever heard of this? 64 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,120 Have you ever heard of this before? 65 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:36,120 No. 66 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:37,120 No, I don't think so. 67 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:38,120 I have amnesia. 68 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:39,120 All right. 69 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,680 So, Stanley Milgram was born on August 15, 1933 in the Bronx, New York City, to parents 70 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,360 Adele and Samuel Milgram. 71 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,160 His parents had immigrated to the U.S. from Romania and Hungary during World War II, where 72 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,000 they would go on to have Stanley and his two siblings, Marjorie and Joel, and all three 73 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,760 of the children were raised in the Jewish faith. 74 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,040 Coming from Europe during World War II, Stanley's immediate and extended family were actually 75 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,800 both affected by the Holocaust. 76 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,760 After the war was over and Stanley was around 12, some relatives of his who had survived 77 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,360 Nazi concentration camps and actually had tattoos from them as well had stayed with 78 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:17,880 him and his family in New York. 79 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,320 I can't even imagine that. 80 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,120 That is like, it's incomprehensible. 81 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:22,280 It really is. 82 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:28,920 And to see the something like a tattoo and know exactly why they have that tattoo. 83 00:03:28,920 --> 00:03:29,920 Of course. 84 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:30,920 It's not a choice. 85 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:31,920 They were branded. 86 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:32,920 It's so sad. 87 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:35,000 And of course, not to mention, you know, the physical toll. 88 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,000 Like, it was probably a really big shock to the kids. 89 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,000 I bet. 90 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,320 And so Stanley was known as being super invested in the story of what Jewish people had to 91 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:48,240 go through during the Holocaust and even used the impacts of World War II on Jewish people 92 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,520 as a subject of his Bar Mitzvah speech. 93 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,240 Yeah, I do remember you saying that. 94 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,480 That really shook me. 95 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:55,480 Yeah. 96 00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:00,040 He was noted as saying, upon becoming a man under Jewish law, quote, as I find happiness 97 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,480 in joining the ranks of Israel, the knowledge of the tragic suffering of my fellow Jews 98 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:10,000 makes us an occasion to reflect upon the heritage of my people, which now becomes mine. 99 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,720 I shall try to understand my people and do my best to show the responsibilities which 100 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,560 history has placed on all of us, end quote. 101 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:23,840 What a young man, though, like to use that platform to be able to use it to bring awareness 102 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:24,840 all over again. 103 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:25,840 Yeah, absolutely. 104 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:28,080 To the struggles of the Jewish people. 105 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:33,720 I think that he also felt like he was born at the wrong time and he almost felt a sense 106 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,160 of survivor's guilt for having his relatives live with him and them having to have gone 107 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,160 through that and he hadn't. 108 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,080 He actually would later state to a friend that he had from childhood, quote, I should 109 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,800 have been born into the German-speaking Jewish community of Prague at 1922 and died in a 110 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,160 gas chamber some 20 years later. 111 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,880 How I came to be born in the Bronx Hospital, I'll never quite understand, end quote. 112 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:06,920 What's that like, that's that type of over-reveal effect type feel that I have, I am just this 113 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:13,880 very small aunt, you know, and I'm almost insignificant, but if the fates had designed 114 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,240 it so, I could have been in a very different place. 115 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,640 That's exactly how I think about it. 116 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,360 Like I have that feeling sometimes too, like how did we get so lucky to have been born 117 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,360 in where we were born? 118 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:26,360 Exactly. 119 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,800 But, you know, what had to have changed or what would have changed in order for us to 120 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,720 be born, let's say, in Africa or in Australia, you know? 121 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:41,000 It's just crazy how everything has to align perfectly and I bet that he feels like, why 122 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,000 did I, like, what's so special about me? 123 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,160 Now I have to use it. 124 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,280 Yeah, that doesn't make sense when he said, you know, the survivor's guilt. 125 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:50,040 I can see how he might feel that way. 126 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,840 Yeah, exactly. 127 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,680 So many people would go on to write about Stanley Milgram later in his life, one being 128 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,760 Professor Thomas Blass. 129 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,280 He referred to Stanley's interest in the Holocaust as his, quote, lifelong identification 130 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:05,240 with the Jewish people, end quote. 131 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,840 Author Kristin Fermiglitz would write that Stanley, as an adult, had, quote, a personal 132 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:15,040 conflict as a Jewish man who perceived himself both as an outsider, a victim of the Nazi 133 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,800 destruction and as an insider, a scientist, end quote. 134 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,640 Which is like, again, like he's using it. 135 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:22,640 Yeah. 136 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,600 You know, you use that pain and that guilt and whatever he's feeling and he's gonna, 137 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:26,960 he's like, I'm gonna fucking make a difference. 138 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:28,360 Or I'm gonna prove something. 139 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:29,360 Yeah. 140 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,560 So Stanley would be known to utilize these ideations about the Jewish culture and the 141 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,400 Holocaust as a motive behind his research in the future as a scientist. 142 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:43,840 By the time he was college age, Stanley's family had moved to Queens and in 1954, Stanley 143 00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:48,960 would receive his bachelor's degree in political science from Queens College in New York. 144 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,360 He would also study at Brooklyn College where he received A plus grades in psychology of 145 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:58,320 personality and an eclectic approach to social psychology courses. 146 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,160 He would then go on to apply to a PhD program in social psychology at Harvard, but would 147 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,680 initially be rejected due to an insufficient background in psychology. 148 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,400 Cause he only had those two courses. 149 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:09,400 He didn't have a good degree. 150 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,680 He could just pursue a PhD in anything. 151 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,080 Well, you know, some people, some people can. 152 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,240 You gotta forge those, forge those certificates. 153 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,400 So the man persevered and he would ultimately be accepted to Harvard after first enrolling 154 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,760 as a student in the office of special students at Harvard. 155 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:26,760 Okay. 156 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:32,360 In 1961, Stanley would receive his PhD in social psychology from Harvard and would then 157 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,600 become assistant professor at Yale in the fall of 1960. 158 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,120 I guess he didn't want to stay at Harvard. 159 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:39,120 Yeah. 160 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,080 To become a professor. 161 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,600 Although he had been getting multiple different opportunities, Stanley was still often thinking 162 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,120 about the horrific treatment of Jewish people during World War II. 163 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,480 He just couldn't wrap his head around the fact that so many people were treating others 164 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,440 so terribly and they weren't going against the authority figures that were telling them 165 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:56,440 to do so. 166 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,360 Especially on a mass scale like that. 167 00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:59,360 Yes. 168 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,720 You would think there's gotta be at least a handful of them that were like, this is 169 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:03,720 wrong. 170 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:04,720 This is wrong. 171 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:05,720 But also there was- 172 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:06,720 And we need to be able to do something about it. 173 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,520 But there was so many people at the same time, not to make it excuse, but there were so 174 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:10,520 many people at the same time. 175 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:15,760 I can't imagine the fear of like, even if there's five of us that go against the 400, they're 176 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:16,760 just gonna kill us. 177 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:17,760 Yeah. 178 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:18,760 It's gotta be a horrible situation. 179 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,360 It's gonna be labeled as traitors or whatever. 180 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:22,360 Yeah. 181 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:23,360 I mean, they're pieces of shit regardless. 182 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:24,360 I'm not trying to say that. 183 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,800 I can clearly can see that people are, you know, what they're willing to do to people 184 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:30,800 in general. 185 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,360 So not in general, but specifically to the Jewish people. 186 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:34,360 Well, yeah. 187 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,600 Just because someone on authority is telling you to. 188 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:37,600 Yeah. 189 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,640 So if, you know, who knows what they'll do to me if I'm a traitor? 190 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:46,320 So also around the time that Stanley was working at Yale, Nazi war criminal by the name of 191 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,640 Adolf Eichmann was getting ready to be tried. 192 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,960 He had gotten arrested in the prior years. 193 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,080 So after the war, several survivors of the Holocaust had dedicated themselves to finding 194 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,680 Eichmann and other Nazis that had escaped. 195 00:08:58,680 --> 00:08:59,680 Hell yeah. 196 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:00,680 That were like, in hiding. 197 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:01,680 Yeah. 198 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:02,680 It's like an inglorious bastard. 199 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:03,680 Yeah. 200 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:04,720 It's just super pussies. 201 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,560 So Eichmann would ultimately be convicted on charges of war crimes, crimes against humanity, 202 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:12,760 crimes against the Jewish people, and membership in a criminal organization. 203 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:13,880 So that's what he was on trial for. 204 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,840 How much did he get? 205 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:16,840 I actually don't know. 206 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:17,840 Do you want to look it up? 207 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:18,840 Yeah. 208 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:24,520 I'm assuming he was sentenced to death because within a year of the trial, Eichmann was 209 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,920 hanged on June 1st, 1962. 210 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:30,920 Dang. 211 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:31,920 Yeah. 212 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,840 So got off a little easy there, don't you think? 213 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,120 It was a life sentence for sure. 214 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:37,120 God. 215 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,840 So the trial started in 1961, like you just said a year later. 216 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,680 But three months after the trial had started, a public announcement was put on campus of 217 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:46,680 Yale. 218 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:50,960 Quote, we will pay you $4 for one hour of your time. 219 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,920 Persons needed for a study of memory. 220 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:58,360 We will pay 500 New Haven men to help us complete a scientific study of memory and learning. 221 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,800 The study is being done at Yale University. 222 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,200 Each person who participates will be paid $4 plus 50 cents car fare for approximately 223 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:06,840 one hour's time. 224 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,360 We need you for only one hour. 225 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,360 There are no further obligations. 226 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,720 You may choose the time you would like to come, evenings, weekdays, or weekends. 227 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,800 All persons must be between the ages of 20 and 50. 228 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,360 High school and college students cannot be used. 229 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,160 If you meet these qualifications, fill out the coupon below and mail it now to Professor 230 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,040 Stanley Milgram, Department of Psychology, Yale University, New Haven. 231 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,720 You'll be notified later the specific time and place of the study. 232 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,200 We reserve the right to decline any application. 233 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:35,280 End quote. 234 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,920 So I think that like $4 sounds really lame, but the conversion is $40. 235 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:39,920 Oh geez. 236 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:40,920 Yeah, for one hour. 237 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:41,920 For one hour? 238 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:42,920 Hell yeah, I'd do it. 239 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:43,920 I would do it. 240 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:44,920 It's amazing. 241 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,080 So the purpose of this experiment, according to Stanley, was to measure the willingness 242 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,600 of participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting 243 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,080 with their personal conscience. 244 00:10:55,080 --> 00:11:00,480 The study included 40 men in the age range from 20 to 50 and would begin on August 7, 245 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,040 1961. 246 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,000 Three individuals took part in each session of the experiment, the experimenter who was 247 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,680 in charge of the session, the teacher, a volunteer for a single session who were led to believe 248 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:15,920 that they were merely assisting, whereas they were actually the subjects, and the learner 249 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:21,320 or actor, which is a confederate of the experimenter who pretended to be a volunteer. 250 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:27,320 Okay, so there's the volunteer, the teacher slash subject. 251 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:28,320 Yes. 252 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,400 The person in the middle. 253 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,280 This was the confusing part the last time we recorded this, so I'll just explain for 254 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:34,560 everyone because now I know. 255 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:37,240 So the experimenter is the person like leading the experiment. 256 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,280 The person that is the teacher and the person that is the learner are both coming in. 257 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,320 One of them is posing as a volunteer and one of them actually is a volunteer. 258 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:52,520 What they would do is have the learner and the teacher pull a piece of paper like a slip 259 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:57,920 and they would say like random choice, you're going to be either the teacher or the learner. 260 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,440 But the actor who was the person that they hired, they had a slip and they would always 261 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,000 say, oh, I'm the learner. 262 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,000 I'm the learner. 263 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,040 So even though two teachers in the hat. 264 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,040 Yes, exactly. 265 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,040 Like every slip said teacher, but the actor was told to say that they were a learner so 266 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,800 that the person that was the teacher would always be the subject. 267 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:15,800 Yeah. 268 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:16,800 Okay. 269 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,280 It'll get less confusing in a second. 270 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,160 So the subject and the actor would arrive at the session together and the experimenter 271 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:28,040 told them that they would be taking part in a quote, scientific study of memory and learning. 272 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,680 They would explain that they want to see what the effective punishment is on a subject's 273 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:34,600 ability to memorize content. 274 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,960 So after the two slips were drawn, again, the actor is pretending that they drew learner. 275 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,880 The teacher and the learner were taken into adjacent rooms where the learner was dropped 276 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,960 into what appeared to be an electric chair. 277 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,240 So they just sat down right there. 278 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,960 The experimenter was dressed in a white lab coat in order to appear to have more authority. 279 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,240 So the teacher and the learner were then separated so that they could communicate, but they couldn't 280 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:57,240 see each other. 281 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,040 I wonder what that's like because I think we talked about it last time, like maybe a 282 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,520 two-way mirror situation. 283 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:03,880 Yeah, I think so. 284 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,040 It's definitely like you can hear him, but you can't see him. 285 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,520 It's either maybe like a really thin wall or something. 286 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,800 Or there was like a microphone set up sort of situation. 287 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:13,800 I think I do. 288 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:19,400 After we talked about this last week, I think I thought that I might have seen videos of 289 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:20,400 this. 290 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:21,400 Yeah, there's videos. 291 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:26,560 And yeah, I think that they had a speaker of some kind, like a one-way communication. 292 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:28,480 I think it was more of that situation. 293 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,560 I don't think two-way mirrors were a thing. 294 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:31,560 No, no, yeah, two-way mirrors. 295 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:32,560 Well, I don't know. 296 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:34,440 This was, you know, when was this in the 60s? 297 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:35,960 Yeah, they might have been. 298 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:43,000 But I think what, if I remember correctly, the teacher, you know, the middle person, 299 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,000 right? 300 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,000 Because that's what we said. 301 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,000 There's like an authoritative person, someone in the middle, and then the person that's 302 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,360 being, you know, that's put in this chair. 303 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:59,680 The teacher, if I remember correctly, has the ability to speak to the person and then 304 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:01,920 the person not be able to speak back to the teacher. 305 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,880 No, I think that the teacher has the ability to hear the learner, but they're not able 306 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:07,880 to communicate. 307 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,200 Like you can't talk to them. 308 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,200 Right. 309 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,240 You can hear the learner, but you can't talk to them. 310 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,160 And then, like I said, I think what I remember correctly is that where the teacher was, if 311 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:19,760 they held, it's like an intercom thing. 312 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,520 Like if he held the button, the learner could hear him, but the teacher can hear the learner 313 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:25,520 at all times. 314 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:26,520 Yes, yes. 315 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:31,560 So, the teacher was then given a list of word pairs that he was to teach the learner. 316 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,280 The teacher would begin by reading the list of word pairs to the learner, then the teacher 317 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,600 would read the first word of each pair and listen for possible correct answers. 318 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:40,600 Okay. 319 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,600 The learner would press a button to indicate the correct response. 320 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,680 And if the learner was incorrect, the teacher would administer a shock to the learner with 321 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:52,000 the voltage increasing in 15 volt increments for each wrong answer. 322 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,960 But this is then being told to do so. 323 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:54,960 Right. 324 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,160 And the learner is like, oh, if they get the answer wrong, you got to press that button. 325 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,160 They're going to get a shock. 326 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,120 And again, they think they're in this electric chair. 327 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,200 So the shock generator actually included verbal markings that varied from slight shock 328 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,840 to dangerous shock. 329 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,520 On the panel or whatever it is. 330 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:16,120 So essentially the teacher can see how close they're getting to danger. 331 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,480 So the subject believed that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual shocks, 332 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,880 but in reality, there were no shocks. 333 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:23,880 Or teacher. 334 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:24,880 Yes, subject or teacher. 335 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,080 So after the learner was separated from the teacher, the learner was set up on a tape 336 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:33,400 recorder integrated with the electric shock generator, which had been previously recorded, 337 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,920 and they recorded sounds for each shock level. 338 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,840 So the learner is just kind of sitting in the other room. 339 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,400 Yeah, just waiting. 340 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:46,320 Oh, I know. 341 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,920 There's chocolate and then there's lint chocolate. 342 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,880 Chocolate that has a silky smooth and velvety texture has been synonymous with the name 343 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,320 lint since its conception in 1845. 344 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:01,000 Click the link in the show notes to receive free shipping with a $60 purchase. 345 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:11,120 Be part of the lint legacy and grab a bag of their world famous truffles today. 346 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,800 But as the voltages of the fake shocks increase, the learner would get the questions wrong 347 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:15,800 again, their actors. 348 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,520 So they're getting the questions wrong on purpose. 349 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:18,520 Right. 350 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,760 The teacher would begin pressing the voltages like higher and higher and the learner was 351 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,400 told to make audible protests such as like banging on the wall or like shouting like 352 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:28,400 stop, stop or whatever. 353 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,120 Oh my God, that's gotta be so scary. 354 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:31,600 No, it's so scary. 355 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:32,600 Yeah. 356 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,040 So also as the voltages increase, the learner was kind of told to like do or say like a 357 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:41,880 specific thing, but they said that if they've reached the highest voltage, just become silent. 358 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:42,880 Like that's so scary. 359 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:43,880 It's so scary. 360 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:44,880 They're brain dead. 361 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,800 I mean, that's what the teacher thinks. 362 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:47,800 Right. 363 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,080 And keep in mind, the teacher is the only one that's not in on this experiment. 364 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,080 Yeah. 365 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,080 So it's like, oh, it's a real object. 366 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:54,080 I know. 367 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,120 So if at any time the teacher was like, whoa, like maybe we shouldn't be doing this, you 368 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:59,600 know, they're clearly in pain. 369 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:00,600 Yeah. 370 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:05,240 The experimenter was instructed to give a specific verbal prod and these would go in 371 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,240 order. 372 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,520 So the first time that the teacher would say maybe we shouldn't do this, the instructor 373 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,320 would say or excuse me, experimenter would say, please continue or please go on. 374 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:19,280 If the teacher said no again, the experimenter was told to say the experiment requires that 375 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,720 you continue. 376 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,640 Then another protest experimenter says it is absolutely essential that you continue. 377 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,120 And then lastly, they would say you have no other choice. 378 00:17:28,120 --> 00:17:29,680 You must go on. 379 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,840 The second prompt could only be used if the first one was unsuccessful and so on. 380 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,760 If the teacher still wanted to stop after all four of the verbal prods, the experiment 381 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:38,760 would stop. 382 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:39,760 Okay. 383 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:41,160 So they would have to say it four times though. 384 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:42,160 Yeah. 385 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:43,640 They'd literally have to be like, no, listen to me. 386 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:44,760 Like this person's in pain. 387 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:45,760 Yeah. 388 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:51,920 And a lot of people would not protest after being told twice, once or twice. 389 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:52,920 Yeah. 390 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,120 Otherwise, if there was no verbal protest or if they didn't say it four times, the experiment 391 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:00,000 was stopped after the subject reached the highest voltage level. 392 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,000 Okay. 393 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,000 So either way by the highest voltage level. 394 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,200 But again, we have to remember nobody's being tortured. 395 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,720 Nobody's being tortured but the teacher thinks they are. 396 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,120 Technically the teacher's being tortured. 397 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:09,120 Yeah, that's true. 398 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:10,120 Mentally. 399 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:14,760 So the experimenter also had prompts to use if the teacher made specific comments. 400 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,840 So if the teacher asked whether the learner might suffer permanent physical harm, the 401 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,880 experimenter was supposed to say, quote, although the shocks may be painful, there is no permanent 402 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,400 tissue damage, so please go on and quote. 403 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:26,400 But still also. 404 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,400 They're still in pain. 405 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,520 I got to the highest voltage and there's no noise coming out of this man anymore. 406 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,440 So you can stop now you kill him. 407 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:34,440 You can't tell me. 408 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:35,440 Yeah. 409 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:36,440 Seriously. 410 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:37,440 You can stop now he's dead. 411 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,440 If the teacher said that the learner clearly wants to stop, the experimenter should say, 412 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,880 quote, whether the learner likes it or not, you must go on until he has learned all of 413 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,200 the word pairs correctly. 414 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,200 So please go on. 415 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,840 He's only getting paid $40 for this hour. 416 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:54,280 So keep in mind also the teacher thinks that the learner is getting a shock because they're 417 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,400 getting the words wrong and the idea behind the experiment is that the shock will convince 418 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,680 the learner to become correct all of a sudden. 419 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:01,680 Yeah. 420 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,320 Like it's supposed to influence them to remember better. 421 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:08,320 You know, I think I remember watching that video and the teacher that were the subject 422 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:16,520 that is being, is administering the shocks is increasingly disappointed when the learner 423 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,800 on the other side doesn't get the correct answer. 424 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:19,920 I would be too. 425 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,880 And he's like rooting for the guy like on the other side of this wall. 426 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,000 He's like, please remember, please remember, please remember. 427 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,560 And you'll get it wrong and go like that. 428 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,480 Like he has to push the button, you know. 429 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,680 But the crazy thing is that he doesn't have to push the button. 430 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,160 He just has to speak up for himself or speak up for the learner a couple of times and then 431 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:39,160 he'll get the final answer. 432 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:40,160 But they don't know that. 433 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:41,160 Yeah. 434 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,880 So before the experiment began, Stanley pulled 14 Yale University senior year of psychology 435 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:51,560 majors to predict the behavior of 100 hypothetical teachers or subjects. 436 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,360 As of the poll, respondents believed that only a very small fraction of the teachers 437 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:59,360 would be prepared to inflict the maximum voltage. 438 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:03,440 Stanley also did the poll on his colleagues and found out that they too believed very 439 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,640 few subjects would progress beyond a very strong shock. 440 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,600 And lastly, he would also poll 40 psychiatrists from a medical school and they mostly believed 441 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:16,560 that by the 10th shock when the victim demands to be free, most subjects would stop the experiment. 442 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:17,560 Yeah. 443 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,240 I did find that interesting too when you brought that up that I mean, I don't know what I would 444 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:23,240 think at that moment. 445 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:30,400 Clearly listening to this episode, I'm like, it's possible for people to ignore that gut 446 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:36,560 feeling or that sense of right and wrong when being told something by an authoritative figure. 447 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,960 And I did find it kind of surprising that everybody was like, nobody's gonna do that. 448 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:40,960 Nobody's gonna do that. 449 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:41,960 Nobody's gonna do that. 450 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:42,960 Everything. 451 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:43,960 No way. 452 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:44,960 People aren't like that. 453 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,520 It's just crazy because they're like, there's no way. 454 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:47,520 Yeah, you're right. 455 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:48,520 There's no way. 456 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,640 And you see the experiment results and you're like, what the fuck? 457 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:51,640 What? 458 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:52,640 Yeah. 459 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,600 The psychiatrist also predicted that by the 300 volt shock when the victim was supposed 460 00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:00,400 to fall silent, that only 3.73% of the subjects would still continue. 461 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,940 And they believed that quote, only a little over one tenth of 1% of the subjects would 462 00:21:04,940 --> 00:21:07,040 administer the highest shock on the board. 463 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,040 Yeah, arrest those guys. 464 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,040 Those are the bundies of the world. 465 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,840 Yeah, the guys that will do the shock, they're like, he's not responding. 466 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:14,840 Shock him again. 467 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:15,840 Shock him again. 468 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:16,840 Just keep going. 469 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:17,840 Those are the bundies of the world. 470 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,840 So Stanley also suspected before the experiment that the obedience exhibited by Nazis reflected 471 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:28,200 a distinct German characteristic and planned to use the American participants in this experiment 472 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:33,000 as a control group before doing the same experiment on German participants. 473 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:38,720 Is he expected the German participants to behave closer to Nazis and not the American 474 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:39,720 citizens? 475 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,360 I feel like that's putting people in a bucket though. 476 00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:42,360 Oh, for sure. 477 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:47,400 But he's like, this is my way to prove that people that are German have this hatred in 478 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:48,400 their blood. 479 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:49,760 They're just inherently awful. 480 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,800 But the thing is, the unexpected results of the experiment actually stopped him from 481 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,320 even performing the experiment with German participants because he was like, oh wait, 482 00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:59,320 Americans do it too. 483 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,320 So he thought- 484 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:01,480 When they've been told to by an authority figure. 485 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:08,200 He thought what Americans were like, more like aren't as reactive or aren't as obedient. 486 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,240 Yeah, I guess so because he said that he was going to use the American participants as 487 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:13,240 a control group. 488 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,240 It's like the baseline. 489 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,960 That's a pretty shitty baseline. 490 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,760 So Stanley would collect the results at the end of the experiment and note that the subjects 491 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,600 were oftentimes very uncomfortable administering the shocks and even displayed varying degrees 492 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,480 of tension and stress. 493 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:33,840 14 of the 40 subjects showed definite signs of nervousness, laughing or smiling and every 494 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,960 participant paused the experiment at least once to question it. 495 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,800 Most continued that however, after being assured by the experimenter and some said that they 496 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,040 would even refund the money that they are paid for participating. 497 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,400 They were like, I don't want to do this. 498 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,400 You don't have to pay me. 499 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,400 Can we stop? 500 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,400 Oh, when they said- 501 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:51,400 But they didn't say it four times. 502 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:52,400 So it didn't stop. 503 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,680 When they offered to stop, they said, no, I don't want to do this anymore. 504 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:55,680 You can have the money back. 505 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:56,680 Yeah. 506 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,680 I know. 507 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,920 And then to continue doing it. 508 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:00,920 It's crazy. 509 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:01,920 $40 is $40. 510 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:02,920 But you're like- 511 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:03,920 But I wouldn't want to shock Amanda. 512 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:04,920 It's hurting somebody. 513 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:05,920 Yeah. 514 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:11,160 Although this is interesting, while leaving the experiment, Stanley found that many participants 515 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,400 were actually happy to have taken part in it in hindsight. 516 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,640 And I'll get into that just in a second. 517 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,240 Just so that- you said you're going to get into it, but just so that they didn't know 518 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:22,920 what they were capable of kind of? 519 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:23,920 Yeah. 520 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,720 Well, it's kind of like, wow. 521 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,720 I didn't realize how, I guess, like influential I was. 522 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:29,720 Oh. 523 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,520 How willing I was to like, like really hurt somebody. 524 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,440 Like I don't think about things like that in depth. 525 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,440 I should use that knowledge in the future and not be so like just submissive, you know? 526 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:40,440 Yeah. 527 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,480 Especially when it's hurting somebody else. 528 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:43,480 Yeah. 529 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:48,600 Stanley would summarize the finding of this experiment in a 1974 article stating, quote, 530 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:53,560 The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very 531 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,920 little about how most people behave in concrete situations. 532 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,360 I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen 533 00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:07,520 would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. 534 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,120 Stark authority was pitted against the subject's strongest moral imperatives against hurting 535 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:15,280 others and with the subject's ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority 536 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,480 won more often than not. 537 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,800 The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority 538 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:27,480 constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation. 539 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,080 Ordinary people simply doing their jobs and without any particular hostility on their 540 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,800 part can become agents in a terrible destructive process. 541 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,080 Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear and they 542 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:44,400 are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively 543 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,440 few people have the resources needed to resist authority, end quote. 544 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,640 This is like Stanford prison experiment. 545 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:53,640 Oh yeah. 546 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:54,640 Dr. Zimbardo. 547 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:55,640 Oh yeah. 548 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,640 And we know we talked about him. 549 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,640 That little kook. 550 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,600 It's just like yeah, it's like he's pretty much saying like this needs to be talked about 551 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,560 like people are so willing to just not question authority. 552 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,040 You can literally, I mean okay this is a good example. 553 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,760 How many times have you seen a video where like a robber will come in and they'll be 554 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,680 like whatever take in the bag and the person's like no and they're like oh shit and they 555 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,680 leave because the person stood up to that. 556 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:20,680 That's not what they were anticipating. 557 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,080 You know for someone to stand up to them and they're like oh shit like they weren't actually 558 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,080 gonna shoot anyone. 559 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,080 This is a water gun. 560 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,200 But like I was hoping that he would just see the authority that I have with the weapon 561 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,040 and just submit right. 562 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,800 And it's very rare that people don't. 563 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:34,800 Right. 564 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,440 You see videos all the time of people, banks getting held up and people drop to the ground 565 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:39,440 you know. 566 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,760 You don't really see the video very often of someone saying hell no. 567 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:42,920 Like you know what I mean. 568 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:50,480 For sure but I think there's also a level of self-preservation with that so I'm being 569 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,960 told what to do by an assuming figure like an authority figure of some kind. 570 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:01,080 I better go ahead and just do what they say so that they don't hurt me or they don't fire 571 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,840 me or they don't talk badly about me. 572 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:04,840 Exactly. 573 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,760 I think a better example would be like a high school kid in the classroom. 574 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,800 Most of the kids are gonna sit down and be quiet when the teacher tells them to or else 575 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,000 they go to the principal's office. 576 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,000 Right. 577 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,560 But that one kid that's like no, you know he might go to the principal's office but he 578 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,280 stood up for himself or whatever. 579 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:19,280 Yeah. 580 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,480 But like I said it's all about self-preservation because if you don't sit down and do your homework 581 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,480 or whatever it is you're gonna get sent to the principal's office. 582 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:25,480 Yeah. 583 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,280 I don't want to get sent to the principal's office because I need to preserve the way 584 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:33,120 that people look at me or see me or whatever it might be or in some cases it's a life or 585 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:34,120 death situation. 586 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:35,120 Yeah, exactly. 587 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:36,120 Yeah. 588 00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:40,200 So later on Stanley and other psychologists would perform variations of the experiment 589 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,440 throughout the world. 590 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,600 Every time with similar results. 591 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,960 So I guess he did kind of like do it with other groups of people but I think other psychologists 592 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,440 did it and he kind of assisted. 593 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:50,440 Yeah. 594 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,440 Going to Germany. 595 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,400 Stanley would later investigate the effect of the experiment's locale on obedience levels 596 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,400 by holding an experiment in an unregistered backstreet office at a bustling city as opposed 597 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,160 to a Yale, to Yale at a respectable university. 598 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,160 Yeah. 599 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,920 So he's like maybe people act different you know and like the Bronx and they will and 600 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,920 like a really high-held university. 601 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:09,920 Right. 602 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,840 So the level of obedience although somewhat reduced was not significantly lower in these 603 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:14,840 experiments. 604 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,840 It's pretty much the same results. 605 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:17,840 Yeah. 606 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:18,840 Yeah. 607 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,880 Thomas Blass performed a meta-analysis on the result of repeated performance of the experiment. 608 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,280 He found that all the percentages of participants who are prepared to inflict fatal voltages 609 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,880 range from 28% to 91%. 610 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,720 That's a pretty big range. 611 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:32,720 Pretty big range. 612 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:33,720 Yeah. 613 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:34,720 Well they did a lot of experiments. 614 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:35,720 Yeah. 615 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,440 There was no significant trend over time and the average percentage for US studies was 616 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,640 61%, close to the one for non-US studies which would be 66%. 617 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,240 Again that being the participants that were refusing to administer the final shock. 618 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,400 Among this big number of participants who didn't want to administer the final shocks, 619 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,040 they also neither insisted that the experiment be terminated nor left the room to check the 620 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,080 health of the victim without requesting permission. 621 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,120 So they didn't want to administer the shocks but they also didn't like call the experiment 622 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:04,120 off. 623 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:05,120 Yeah. 624 00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:08,680 So the psychologist, Philip Zimbardo, asked him about this point. 625 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:09,680 Cue me. 626 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,280 So for those that don't know, Philip Zimbardo was the psychologist behind the Stanford Prison 627 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,000 experiment and I did a mental breakdown on that. 628 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,480 If you haven't listed that, please go do so because it's actually really interesting. 629 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,720 I mean it's fucked up but it's really interesting. 630 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:26,240 Of course the Milgram experiment raised questions about the research ethics of scientific experimentation 631 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:31,200 because of the extreme emotional distress and inflicted insight suffered by the patients. 632 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,520 Some critics argue that participants were not properly debriefed about what was going 633 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,720 to happen before. 634 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,840 Although Stanley would repeatedly receive offers of assistance and requests to join the 635 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:46,240 staff from former participants, like I said earlier that people were grateful that they 636 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,840 had been into it. 637 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,000 So six years after the experiment, one of the participants wrote to Stanley explaining 638 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,720 why he was glad to have participated despite the stress that he endured. 639 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,280 While I was a subject in 1964, though I believed that I was hurting someone, I was totally 640 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,680 unaware of why I was doing so. 641 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,360 If you people ever realized when they were acting accordingly to their own beliefs and 642 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,320 when they are amicably submitting to authority, to permit myself to be drafted with the understanding 643 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,440 that I am submitting to authority's demand to do something very wrong would make me frightened 644 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:17,800 of myself. 645 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:23,280 I am fully prepared to go to jail if I am not granted conscientious objector status. 646 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,440 Indeed, it is the only course I could take to be faithful to what I believe. 647 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,280 My only hope is that members of my board act equally according to their conscience." 648 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,640 To his like, willing to be, like he's like, put me in jail. 649 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,160 Clearly, I'm a danger to society. 650 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,160 I'd listened to authority. 651 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,720 I thought I was hurting someone. 652 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,560 Like, I should be in jail, you know? 653 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:41,560 Oh my gosh. 654 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:42,880 I can't even imagine feeling that way. 655 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:43,880 What a mindset. 656 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,840 So a lot of people, of course, had really critical responses in the scientific community 657 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,720 about the fact that Stanley was saying that this experiment was applicable to the Holocaust 658 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:52,720 experience. 659 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:53,720 Well, no. 660 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:54,720 Yeah. 661 00:29:54,720 --> 00:30:00,120 Stanley would claim, quote, a common psychological process is centrally involved in both events. 662 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,120 End quote. 663 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,920 James Waller, however, chair of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Keen State College, 664 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,680 expressed the opinion that the Milgram experiment did not correspond well to the Holocaust events, 665 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,800 and he gave a couple reasons why. 666 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,160 So number one, the subjects of the Milgram experiment were assured in advance that no 667 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,120 permanent physical damage would result from their actions. 668 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,440 However, the Holocaust perpetrators were fully aware that they were killing and maiming their 669 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,080 victims. 670 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,440 Number two, the laboratory subjects themselves did not know their victims and were not motivated 671 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,520 by any external racism or other biases, while the Holocaust perpetrators displayed an intense 672 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,520 devaluation of the victims through a lifetime of personal development. 673 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:40,840 Yeah. 674 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,920 Number three, those serving punishment at the lab were not sadists and often exhibited 675 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,880 great anguish and conflict in the experiment, unlike the executioners of the final solution 676 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,960 who had a clear goal on their hands that was set beforehand. 677 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:53,960 Yeah. 678 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,160 And number four, the experiment lasted for only an hour with little to no time for subjects 679 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,480 to contemplate the implications of their behavior, while the Holocaust lasted for fucking years 680 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,520 with ample time for a moral assessment of all individuals and organizations involved. 681 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:13,360 That's so true because, again, it's only an hour-long experiment when all of these 682 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:21,400 Nazi soldiers had ample time, like you said, to say no or stand up or quit or whatever. 683 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,160 Like literal years. 684 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,160 Yeah. 685 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,080 So, there's a lot more on this subject if you want to go research and do a little bit 686 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,280 more deep dive into it. 687 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,680 I just want to do a quick minty break on it and spark a conversation about it. 688 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:34,680 Yeah. 689 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,560 It's just interesting the mindset of being able to inflict pain on someone just because 690 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,080 someone like a lab coat told you to. 691 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:43,080 Right. 692 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,960 Lastly, Stanley Milgram died on December 20th, 1984, and he had a vast amount of other contributions 693 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,520 to the psychology and science world. 694 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,760 He's actually really, really well known, not just for this, but for a lot of other things, 695 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,760 like Zambardo that's like, no one else is going to let you do an experiment ever. 696 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:57,760 Yeah, exactly. 697 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:03,920 And he's like, boop, boop, boop, boop, and then just like blips off into space. 698 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,640 Stanley was actually widely regarded as one of the most important figures in the history 699 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,560 of social psychology, and in a survey published in 2002, they actually ranked Stanley as the 700 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,120 46th most cited psychologist of the 20th century. 701 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,120 Wow. 702 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:18,120 Yeah. 703 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:19,120 But yeah, that's my mental breakdown. 704 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,120 I thought that was interesting. 705 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,240 I know that we had mentioned it like a couple of mental breakdowns ago. 706 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:24,240 They were like, what's that one experiment? 707 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,240 Well, they thought they were expecting shock and they don't. 708 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,240 And so I decided to do a deep dive on the D's. 709 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,000 Well, I'm excited to hear it again, honestly, because I definitely think there was a few 710 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,760 nuggets in there that I was like, oh, I didn't remember that from when we recorded at this 711 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,120 point, like a week and a half ago. 712 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,280 And again, it was like a complete glitch in the matrix that that one got deleted, but 713 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,600 I think I did much better this time around than last time. 714 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:51,600 I liked it. 715 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,480 I was really glad that I got to redo it because I wasn't crazy about the way I presented it 716 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:55,480 the first time. 717 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:56,480 Yeah. 718 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:57,480 I don't remember. 719 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:58,800 Were we doing something else that night? 720 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,800 We, I think we recorded two things at once or something. 721 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:02,800 Oh, that's right. 722 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,360 I think we recorded two. 723 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:05,360 That's probably why. 724 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,520 We're probably a little tired or something last week. 725 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:08,520 Yeah, definitely. 726 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,520 Well, thank you guys for joining us. 727 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:10,520 We have a really great case. 728 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:11,520 Yeah, thanks for your patience. 729 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,640 Yeah, now that actually we did this, it's now going to be flip flop. 730 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,720 So it'll be my mental breakdown in your case, and then next week it'll be your mental breakdown 731 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,640 in my case instead of having us do two in the same week. 732 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,600 Yeah, it's those double episodes when we do part twos. 733 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:24,600 Yeah, it switches. 734 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,920 Yeah, we were doing, we did part twos and then we weren't doing every other. 735 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,880 It was, we were doing it two times a week. 736 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,720 It seemed like, and then now it's like back to every other. 737 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:35,720 Yeah. 738 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,520 So you guys are going to hear both of our takes each week now until we do another part 739 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,000 two or something else happens. 740 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,000 Yeah, absolutely. 741 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,680 And if you are a Patreon member, you have an exclusive message for you on our Patreon 742 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:46,680 website. 743 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:47,680 You do. 744 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:48,680 So go check that out. 745 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,160 And as soon as we're off here recording, so you guys can go check that out. 746 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,400 And it's just a little, little nugget of information for you guys. 747 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,400 Yeah, of course. 748 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,400 Okay. 749 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:58,400 All right. 750 00:33:58,400 --> 00:33:59,400 Well, love you. 751 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,400 Love you too. 752 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:01,400 Bye. 753 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:02,400 Wait, what? 754 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,400 Love you, bye. 755 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:09,080 Love you, bye. 756 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,440 Looking to expand your wine knowledge or just indulge in your favorites, Gold Medal Wine 757 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,760 Club is what you're looking for. 758 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,240 Enjoy small production award-winning wines from authentic family-owned wineries 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