Hello!
Welcome to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.
I'm Koelle.
I'm kind of...
It's the mental breakdown, my bad.
I was waiting for you to say it.
Ah, just hit my hand.
We'll do a great start.
Ah.
Hi.
So, this is the first conversation you and I have had today.
I think it's the first conversation.
You and I...
Oh, that's true.
Because you came home last night.
Yeah.
Night before.
I was home last night.
Last night.
But I'm just saying I get home and run into my room to do some research on other topics.
And then we sit down and we're like, hey, how's it going?
We don't say anything until we start recording.
So, Professor.
So, Profesh, how did your day go?
It was good.
a little tired because yesterday was a big day. KC's team won the championship, which is super
exciting. I don't know if anyone doesn't know my boyfriend plays baseball on a men's league,
and he's like all about baseball. And yesterday they had their last game and they won the whole
thing and it was really exciting. It was a game-winning home run by none other than Brian Witt,
so shout out Brian. But yeah, it was fun. And then we went to celebrate, of course. Yeah. We
got home kind of early, but we still went to bed really late. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Long day,
what about you? Leftovers in the fridge. Did you go to 54th? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, like I bummed
about it. She's so bummed about it. I don't like it. Pretty good. Just, you know, got up,
started doing chores, went to H.E.B., yeah. The E.U.J. The E.U.J. ran some errands. Love it. Went to
go see the the dude's mom. She's so sweet. She's the sweetest thing. Yeah, I love that. I know.
Well, I guess we can get into this minty breaky, but before we do, I just want to say
thanks to all of our Patreon members, Jay will actually change his tier to tier number two,
so he's going to get access to all those extra goodies. If you don't know what we have on Patreon,
we have three tiers on our Patreon members. Every tier does get ad-free episodes every week.
Tears two and three are going to get an additional bonus episode. No content warning, all graphic,
all the nitty gritty. Pretty like bigger cases than we normally would do graphic wise,
and that's going to be on the 29th of every month. I'm doing the toolbox killers for my next one
that's coming out on the 29th of this month, so get prepared for that because those guys are
fucking ruthless. It's disgusting. It's disgusting. And there's like transcripts and stuff, like kind
of like the toy box. So I just get the bad ones. Oh gosh, the case I'm doing right now, there's like
autopsy reports. It's brutal. I keep having to like pause. Yeah. I mean, this is the one that's
going to be coming out on Thursday. So it's a little bit of a doozy for a common case. Yeah.
For a common episode, I guess. Not common. That sounds like peasants. It's just a common.
It's a peasant one. Well, you guys can definitely check us out at patreon.com slash diagnosing a
killer if you want access to those. We also have diagnosing a killer.com where you can find links to
like super cool merch and resources and all that jazz. You do get 15% off on the tickets to the
True Crime and Paranormal Podcast Festival. That is happening in like three weeks, y'all. And we're
going to be there. So please, please come support us. We would love to meet all of you guys. And
we are also on Instagram and everywhere else at diagnosing a killer except for Twitter, which is
at Killer Diagnosis. That was my cat if you can't hear. And email us diagnosingkiller.com at gmail.com.
Diagnosingkiller at gmail.com. Send us an email, live laugh lurk. Live laugh lurk. Jen messaged me
through Instagram about the Go To Jon episode. Who? Jen? Jennifer. Jennifer. Jennifer.
Patreon Jennifer? Yes. Oh, okay. Saying that the HBO documentary wasn't saying for that case. And
I was like, is that the mom dead and dearest? Mommy dead and dearest. Yeah, mommy dead and dearest.
She said, yeah, it's an insane documentary. Yeah, no. And I love that when I posted that we were
doing it, Lady was like, oh my gosh, like, can't wait to listen to this one. I actually listened
back. Like I haven't really been listening back lately. But I listened back to that one. I was
like, dang, I did a, I did a pretty good job if I do say so myself. Can I, can I tends to not listen
right away? I tend as soon as it's posted, I have to listen to it. I need to know. I need to know.
I need to know. And then I haven't really been listening lately. But that one I did. I was like,
this one was, oh, and I, I drove down to the coast. So I obviously had like two and a half hours to
kill. So I was like, yeah, and I might as well. And you eventually listen to them. Yeah, yeah. It's
just, it's like, you ever see a celebrity, you're here, celebrities say, oh, I never watched my
own movies or I never watched myself on TV. I never want to get to that point. I always want to,
like, remember things. Yeah, exactly. Because sometimes people come up to me and they'll give
me like a quote from an episode and I'll be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. They'll
say, oh, it's from episode blah blah blah. And I'm like, oh, I need to like go back and listen.
Oh, that's so funny. Episode blah blah blah. Yeah. Well, we actually, I think are at 100 episodes
posted on our page. I'm pretty sure it's like 99 or 100. Let me list. Because Gypsy's was
102. So we have 101 episodes total posted. So if this is your first time listening, obviously,
you've seen our page. But that means that you have 100 episodes to listen to. Well, no, because
101 as we're recording this. So that'd be 102. So you have 101 right now. But anyway, let's get into
this mental breakdown. I'm excited. Today, we're going to be talking about the difference between
psychopaths and sociopaths. What? That's interesting. So in order to talk about psychopathy and
sociopathy, sociopathy, sociopathy, sociopathy, sociopathy, sociopathy, sociopathy, sociopathy.
We know. We got it. Cool. Let's talk about psychopaths and sociopaths. We first need to
talk about antisocial personality disorder, as both of these terms are not considered clinical
diagnosis. Yes, I know. That's why it's interesting. So according to the DSM-5, anti-social personality
disorder is defined as A. This is the first one that I've ever seen that does A, B, C, D, but then
also has little criteria underneath each one. I know. And usually when we look at the DSM-5,
it just has just the definition and then the bullets, right? So A, a pervasive pattern of
disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15, as indicated by three or
more of the following. Okay. Number one, failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful
behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest. Number two,
deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal
profit or pleasure. Use of aliases. That's interesting. Like it's very specific. Yeah.
Use of aliases. All right, Dee Dee. I was going to say, yeah, people like Dee Dee Blanchard or,
you know, people like, I don't know, give me another example. I don't know. The colonel. The colonel.
Call me the colonel. Go with the colonel. We're saying, you know, oh, yeah, my name is, yeah, H-H,
or my name is Liz, not Liz, it's Elizabeth, you know. Who did that? Oh, it was not Jimmy,
it's James. That was- Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so funny. That was what's her face. Number three,
impulsivity or failure to plan ahead. What's like, who does that? Me. Everybody. You have to have three
or more. Four, irritability and aggressiveness as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
Me. No, she's kidding. Me. Five, reckless disregard for safety of self or others. Okay. Number six,
consistent irresponsibility as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work
behavior or honor financial obligations. Number seven, lack of remorse as indicated by being
indifferent to or rationalizing, having hurt, mistreated or stolen from another. Okay. So that's
all A, if you meet three or more of this criteria, you may have this or again, I'm not here to
diagnose anybody, just that's what- that's the criteria you have to meet for your antisocial
personality disorder. For sure. And a lot of people that we've talked about in the past have
almost all, if not- most of them, not all of those criteria. Right. Bundy. Yeah. Bundyth. Bundyth.
So that was A. So B is the individual has to be at least 18 years old. C, there is evidence of
conduct disorder with an onset before age 15. So otherwise, essentially before age 15, it would
be some type of a conduct disorder that they would have. And finally, D, the occurrence of
antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder as well.
Okay. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people think- and we- we did an entire episode on antisocial
personality disorder. A lot of people think that that means like, antisocial, like you don't want
to talk to people, well, that's not what it means. It means like, the lack of empathy is like a really
big deal. Yes. I agree with that because I also tried to look up celebrities with antisocial
personality disorder. And it's like, Angelina Jolie likes her privacy. And it's like, that's not
what that means, you know? She goes to her five beach houses to get away from people. No. It's
not funny. But that is the reason that we're doing this. Yeah. Misunderstood. So that people don't
say like, oh, I had antisocial personality disorder. I don't like being around people like,
that's not what that means. Yeah. Yeah. Looking to expand your wine knowledge or just indulge in
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So the essential feature of antisocial personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of
disregard for and violation of, like we said earlier, the rights of others that begins in
childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood. This pattern has also been
referred to as psychopathy, sociopathy, or dissocial personality disorder. Dissocial.
Dissocial. Dys social. Social personality disorder. Hmm. Because deceit and manipulation are
central features of antisocial personality disorder, it may be especially helpful to
integrate information acquired from the systemic clinical assessment with information collected
from collateral sources. Damn. That's the worst sentence. Yeah. Okay. So in a way, antisocial
personality disorder is kind of an umbrella, and then these two are kind of underneath that
umbrella. Got it. But it is absolutely in the DSM-5. Those words are in the DSM-5. They're just not
a clinical diagnosis. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why, like, you know, we try to steer clear of that
being like a diagnosis that we talk about, like especially with Ted Bundy. I was like, a lot of
people have referred to him as a true sociopath or a true psychopath, but those are not diagnoses,
right? Right. So he has to have had something else that that would have just been a part of,
a.k.a. antisocial personality disorder. Yeah. Narcissistic personality disorder. Absolutely.
So now that we've talked about the DSM-5's definition of antisocial personality disorder
and what it means to be maybe a psychopath or a sociopath, we're going to talk about the differences.
Okay. So sociopaths make it clear they do not care about how others feel. They tend to behave in
very hotheaded and impulsive ways and are prone to fits of anger and rage. Sociopaths recognize
what they are doing is wrong, but rationalize their behavior instead. Got it. Sociopaths can
not maintain irregular work and family life, but are able to form some type of emotional
attachment, although it can be very difficult. That sounds like narcissistic personality disorder,
which again, that could definitely be a under the umbrella of that. Right. I feel like the
narcissism comes in when it's more that grandiose sense of self that we've talked about.
But I can see, I think that when we, again, we're going to keep talking about Bundy because it's
the prime example, right? Yeah. He tended to be very hotheaded and get very angry very quickly,
would be quick to anger. And he would go like to the biggest lengths just to like get revenge on
someone, you know. So psychopaths pretend to care. They display cold, harder behavior,
and they fail to recognize other people's distress. Psychopaths have relationships
that are shallow and fake and can maintain a normal life as a cover for criminal activity,
although they fail to form genuine emotional attachments. See, that's something that like
or like even Bundy, you know, like that's something that is so interesting to me. Like,
how do you even know like if someone's being genuine because they can put it on so well?
Yes. Again, just like Bundy in his interviews, we talked about this before, but in court,
he's this charming lawyer dude, he's handsome, he has it all together. Right. And then someone
says something he doesn't like in the audience and he turns around and you could just see the
switch on his face. Like everything before that was fake. And that's the real Bundy. Like I have
the he was just thinking about it. Like, it's just sorry, it's just so hard to kind of pinpoint
like who can do that. You know, it's scary because it's like you could be taken advantage of really
easily. Of course, especially if they're if they are really good at it, you know, and that's
something that they've been able to practice or hone in on as as what they would consider to be
a skill. Right. Strangely enough, psychopaths may even love people, but this is in a way that they
understand what love to be. So think of like Robert Durst, Kathy Durst, right. He loved Kathy,
but you know, it's but it's still his way of love, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Or again,
like BTK, it's his way like he might love his wife, but it's his version of what he thinks love is.
It might not be it might be tangled up in simply the fact that his wife is a cover or whatever.
But yeah, exactly. Whatever they think love should be is what they exactly the same way that his wife
would say, you know, if you love me, you wouldn't do something like you've been doing and keep all
these secrets. Yeah, love to me, but that might be love to him, like I'm protecting her from my
real world. Exactly. You know, yeah. Unfortunately, it is a common misconception that a person with
either of these types of anti social personality disorder are inherently violent. Plenty of people
with anti social personality disorder lead successful and fulfilling lives. According to a
2014 article by PubMed Central, approximately only 20% of prisoners in North America qualify as
having anti social personality disorder. So even though it's again this misconception that you're
inherently violent and that you will always cause problems, you know, you're always going to be cutting
or yeah, exactly. Or you're always going to end you're just a bad person, you're going to end up
in jail. Only 20% of those people qualify. That's not even people that are diagnosed. Yeah, absolutely.
Interesting. Although individuals with anti social personality disorder are 15 to 25 times more
likely to break the law as it is written in the DSM five criteria. So it's yeah, again, 20% of
prisoners that qualify. But people with a disorder have 15 to 25 times more likely of a chance to
break the law. A study from 2006 on people who struggle with symptoms of anti social personality
disorder noted that up to 51% of people living with a disorder feel no remorse for their actions.
And that's probably why they're more likely to commit a crime because they don't really realize
the weight that it holds to do that. Or they I mean, a lot of crimes, they probably think, oh,
it's a victimless crime. It's a victimless crime. You know, but it's most likely not. But you know,
it might be the thought process of like, oh, like, I don't or I don't even care if it is a victim
crime, you know, I don't care who I hurt. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. And again, we're
not here saying that everybody with anti social personality disorder is a criminal. We're not
saying that. Absolutely. And we're not saying either that everybody with anti social personality
disorder is classified as a psychopath or a sociopath. That's true. That's just a, again,
something under the umbrella. Yeah, not all criminals have anti social personality disorder.
You know, we can all just sit here all day and just stand ourselves. We're just reading what the
book says. Yeah. Many people choose to believe that someone who is considered a psychopath or
a sociopath are simply just born that way. But plenty of outside influences can cause or exacerbate
an already occurring mental illness. Some comorbidities for anti social personality disorder
may include major depressive disorder, bipolar disorder, gambling disorder, sexual and paraffinic
disorders, substance use disorders, or somatic symptom disorders, which hyper focus on the
physical symptoms of the point of distress. Yeah. It is estimated to affect between 0.6%
and 3.6% of adults and is three times more common amongst men than women.
Well, that's like a really wide range of like average, but it makes sense because a lot of
people go undiagnosed. I absolutely agree with that. A lot of people probably experiencing
symptoms like that. First of all, might not even realize that there's something
not normative about the way they act, or they're too almost prideful or like don't really care
enough to get help. Right? So they just go undiagnosed. It's true, especially if you feel
like there's nothing wrong with your behavior. Yeah. Exactly. Like why would you choose to
seek it out? Yeah, because you're fine. Because you're fine. So yeah. Everything's just fine.
So treatment for anti social personality disorder can range between family therapy,
behavioral therapy, psychotherapy. Again, talk to your GP. Yeah. Do your due diligence. If you
feel like you suffer from any of those symptoms, talk to a friend. Absolutely. You know, it's always
good to have somebody in your corner that you can trust and, you know, obviously just go with your
gut. And that's why we do these so that we can give people some more knowledge on
symptoms that they or a friend could possibly be experiencing. For sure. And even treating
other symptoms like we said, you know, coronaviridity with major depression, major depressive
disorder or substance use disorder, a lot of those can alleviate your symptoms as well.
So yeah. Absolutely. So just, of course, we've talked about Bundy so far, maybe Dahmer,
H.H. Holmes, Ed Gein, John Wayne Gacy, all of those, you know, infamous killers have been
dubbed psychopaths, although it's not, again, not a clinical diagnosis. But kind of an interesting
fact that I came across is how many people have written their main characters in storylines to be
psychopaths or sociopaths, people like the Joker. Oh yeah, I mean, obviously.
James Bond apparently was written as a psychopath. What? Yeah, which is really interesting. Sherlock
Holmes apparently is a psychopath. Huh. Yeah. So I thought that was really interesting how many times,
you know, psychopaths or sociopaths have been written about as kind of these very interesting
characters, but mostly like they're kind of, they're good guys. Yeah, like intelligent,
like really intelligent, oh, the Joker. But James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, you know, it's all about
enigma. Yeah. Anyways, yeah, I found that to be very, very interesting. Apparently Neil Armstrong
was on that list. Huh. But people considered him to be a psychopath. Interesting. Yeah. Gary Beasie,
I mean, saw that. Sean Penn, Mike Tyson, Courtney Love. Dang. There's a lot, there's a lot of
people out there. Yeah. And of course, these are like, these are, you know, they're a little,
they're a little wild. They're a little subjective. And they're a little wild child, but they're
hugely successful people. Yeah, absolutely. Which is interesting. I feel like I said,
absolutely, like a freaking knowledge of that. Absolutely. Oh, Brad Doriff. I love Brad Doriff.
He did the voice of Chucky. Aw, right? Wait, Chucky, the creepy guy or Chucky from Love Rats?
Oh. I was like, aw, no, that was a girl that did Chucky. Never mind. Never mind. Well, thanks for
bringing that. That was an interesting topic. I know we've always really kind of seen those words
thrown around when we're doing research and stuff and every, you know, other podcasts that we listen
to, a lot of people say that, but it's nice to know that it's not a clinical diagnosis. So
you can tell your friends that you learned something new. If someone goes, oh, that person's
a psychopath, like, no, they're not because they weren't diagnosed. They can't be diagnosed that.
Yeah. Well, that was... Well, you mean anti-social personality disorder?
Nobody could see me, but I was pushing up my glasses. Pushing up the glasses to make yourself
look smart. Smart. Wicked smart. Wicked smart. Well, you guys definitely join us on Thursday for
another case. And then we have our 29th episode coming out, not 29th episode, but the 29th of
this month is going to be a Patreon bonus episode. Yeah, Patreon bonus. And we're doing...
Can we come up with something for that? Yeah, we're doing a lot, a lot of work this week because
we're actually recording two additional episodes because I'm going to be at a town for an entire
week, like starting after like the 31st. So we're going to get all of that content out to you. We're
not going to skip a week just because I'm going to be gone. We're going to pre-record for you guys
because we know that you guys like us to be prompt and you love our episodes and we don't want to
miss out on anything, right? Well, in the meantime, you guys send us an email or a DM or anything of
anything you want to hear. Maybe if you are listening to these mental breakdowns and you're
like, man, they haven't done something that I've been really thinking about yet. Let us know.
Of course, all of the case suggestions we have written down. We could only do so many cases
at a time because they're really long. So we have your suggestions written down and we will
definitely get to them. But thank you guys for the continued support. Thank you for 25,000 downloads.
Super exciting. And we hope to see you guys at the podcast festival. Until then, we will talk to
you on Thursday. Yes. Okay. Love you. Bye.
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