1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,000 Hello! Hello! 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,200 Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer, the mental breakdown edition. 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:36,960 I always find myself not knowing what to say right after we introduced it, and then I was thinking the other day, I was like, 4 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:43,280 well yeah, we've done it like almost a hundred freaking times, so it makes sense that we would run out of things to say at some point. 5 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,920 Did you realize that Bundy was our 50th episode? 6 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:46,960 50th case. 7 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:48,000 Yeah, 50th case, because- 8 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,280 Not even mental breakdown. 9 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,720 Yeah, and we've done, you know, two potas and everything too, but I think we're like right at 100 episodes total. 10 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:55,360 That's amazing. 11 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,760 Let me check actually, because I'm curious. 12 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,080 You know we're coming up on our two-year anniversary soon? 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,120 Yes, we are. 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:02,720 August 31st, I think, right? 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,600 August 31st, 2021 is when we first started, so yes. 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:11,760 So that weekend that we'll be out of town in Austin will be like our two-year anniversary celebration. 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:12,560 Oh my god! 18 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,800 And we get to celebrate with you guys, that's so exciting! 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:15,440 So excited. 20 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,360 So this one will actually be our 97th episode total, which is crazy. 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,760 Well that's not including the Patreon bonus episodes, so we're technically at 100. 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,040 We're technically at 100. 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:25,760 Gosh, it's been a- 24 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:26,720 Right at almost. 25 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:27,600 Darmelwind. 26 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,600 Darmelwind will be 100. 27 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,800 Yeah, so if you don't know, this is your first time listening, my name is Kenna. 28 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,000 I don't even think I said that yet. 29 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:34,880 I'm Ka'well. 30 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,600 And we do what we call the mental breakdown Mondays, which is happening today. 31 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,760 And that is something that we break down, whether it's a mental disorder or a specific 32 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,120 interesting event or a specific theory or anything. 33 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:48,480 We just think this is super interesting. 34 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,160 We kind of break that down for you guys. 35 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,080 And then on Thursdays, we do True Crime Thursdays, where we bring you a case. 36 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:59,520 This week it is going to be part two of Ted Bundy, and it's been a doozy and a half to research. 37 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,480 But we also do have an additional bonus episode for our tier two and three Patreons. 38 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,880 That is going to be Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ka'well is going to be bringing it this month. 39 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,120 They come out on the 29th of each month, again for just tier two and three Patreons. 40 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,440 If you'd like to support us that way, that is awesome. 41 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,880 Our tier one Patreons also get ad-free episodes as well. 42 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:19,360 Yes. 43 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:25,840 And that two tier two and tier three bonus episodes don't have any ads or any content 44 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:26,640 warning. 45 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:30,240 You know what you're getting into, hopefully by that point when you hear names like Dahmer 46 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:31,360 or Albert Fish. 47 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,360 So no content warning, we just get right to the nitty gritty. 48 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:41,120 I am beyond comprehension of the shit that I'm reading about Dahmer. 49 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:42,320 Yeah, it's wild. 50 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,480 They have, I mean, I have the FBI reports. 51 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:45,120 No, I love it. 52 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,120 It is, ugh, it's a lot. 53 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,600 It's going to be a great episode, and that's going to be the same day that Ted two comes out. 54 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,320 Ted Bundy to part two comes out. 55 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,480 So be looking forward to those. 56 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,080 But like we said, today is a mental breakdown Monday, but before I do get into my mental 57 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,400 breakdown, do you want to share our handles with everyone? 58 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:02,880 Sure. 59 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,640 You can hit us up at diagnosingatkiller.com. 60 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:10,160 There you will find links to merch and resources and much, much more. 61 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,840 Our merch goes through Redbubble, so you can also catch us on Redbubble theoretically. 62 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:20,080 Any of our social media handles are going to be at diagnosingatkiller other than Twitter, 63 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,360 which is at killerdiagnosis. 64 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,000 You can email us at diagnosingatkilleratgmail.com. 65 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:26,800 Yes. 66 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,840 Patreons, patrons, Patreon, all that good stuff. 67 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:30,640 Yeah. 68 00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:33,440 And Live Left Lurk by some merch. 69 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,040 And give us a review and a rating. 70 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:35,680 That'd be awesome. 71 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:36,960 We'd love to hear from you guys. 72 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:37,840 Please send us an email. 73 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,960 I would love to hear from you guys, especially if you're in like Australia or New Zealand. 74 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,400 I say that all the time. 75 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,400 She really wants a voice message. 76 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,880 I want a voice memo for sure. 77 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,120 But yeah, thank you guys for joining us for yet another mental breakdown. 78 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:52,560 Are you ready to get into it? 79 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:53,600 Yes, let's do it. 80 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:54,000 Okay. 81 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:54,800 So excited. 82 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,280 So today we are going to be talking about 83 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,280 Low Cards Exchange Principle. 84 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,280 Oh, ooh. 85 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,280 Or probably pronounced differently because he's French. 86 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,280 It's Low Cards. 87 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,280 Okay, Low Cards Exchange Principle. 88 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,280 I feel like we've kind of peppered this in, this here and there, 89 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,280 but I didn't really know exactly what it entailed, 90 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,280 so I was really excited to start researching it and super interesting. 91 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:19,280 This is going to be cool. 92 00:04:19,280 --> 00:04:23,280 So in Forensic Science, which listeners, as you know, 93 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:25,280 Koel and I are both very interested in studying, 94 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:29,280 Low Cards Principle states that the perpetrator of a crime 95 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:31,280 will bring something into the crime and leave with something from it, 96 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:33,280 and that both can be used as forensic evidence. 97 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:35,280 Yes. 98 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:37,280 So again, Low Cards Exchange Principle is the full name. 99 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:39,280 I just kind of cut out the exchange part there. 100 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:45,280 So Dr. Edmund Lowcard was born on December 13th, 1877, 101 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:47,280 in Saint-Chimonde, France. 102 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:49,280 And again, I'm probably going to butcher all of these French pronunciations, 103 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:51,280 so I apologize to our French listeners. 104 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:54,280 Some records actually indicate that he was born in 1872, 105 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:56,280 but he was definitely in France. 106 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:58,280 So I don't know exactly which one. 107 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:01,280 He would go on to study medicine and law at Lyon, France, 108 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:05,280 and eventually would become the assistant of Alexander LaSage. 109 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:07,280 I think that's what you say. 110 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:09,280 LaCasseige. 111 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:11,280 Something way different than I said. 112 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:13,280 He was a criminologist and professor, 113 00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:15,280 so he would become this man's assistant. 114 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:18,280 Edmund would hold this title until 1910, 115 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,280 when he began the foundation of his own criminal laboratory. 116 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:25,280 His lab in Lyon was actually the first forensic lab in Europe. 117 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:27,280 I know, super interesting. 118 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:28,280 I want to go. 119 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:29,280 I know, same. 120 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,280 In 1910, Edmund would also persuade the police department of Lyon 121 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:35,280 to give him two attic rooms and two assistants 122 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:38,280 in order to start the first police forensic laboratory. 123 00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:41,280 So he's like really big deal of the forensic science community. 124 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:42,280 So cool. 125 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:45,280 He would actually become known as the Sherlock Holmes of Lyon, France, 126 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:49,280 and he would come up with this principle of exchange in 1920. 127 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:50,280 Wow. 128 00:05:50,280 --> 00:05:52,280 Literally 100 years ago. 129 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:54,280 Right? 100 years ago? Yeah. 130 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:58,280 He formulated the basic principle of forensic science as quote, 131 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:01,280 every contact leaves a trace, end quote, 132 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:04,280 and this is usually understood as quote, 133 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:07,280 with contact between two items, there will be an exchange. 134 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:10,280 Think of it as like a paint transfer when you get in like a car accident. 135 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:12,280 Kind of the same thing. 136 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:15,280 So Paul L. Kirk, a biochemist and chemist. 137 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:16,280 A biochemist and chemist. 138 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:17,280 He was both. 139 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:19,280 Not just a chemist. 140 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:21,280 He specialized in microscopy. 141 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:23,280 Microscopy? 142 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:24,280 Microscopy. 143 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:25,280 Microscopy. 144 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:26,280 Microscopy. 145 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:27,280 Sorry. 146 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:30,280 He would later describe, just reminded me of, 147 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:33,280 better keep my fingers crossed, Freddie. 148 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:35,280 Cameron needs to love Freddie Got Fingered. 149 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:36,280 Oh, funny. 150 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:38,280 I haven't seen that movie in a very long time. 151 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:43,280 So again, this biochemist and chemist that studied in microscopy, 152 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:48,280 I can't even say it, Paul Kirk would later describe the exchange principle as follows, quote, 153 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:52,280 wherever he steps, wherever he touches, wherever he leaves, 154 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:56,280 even unconsciously will serve as a silent witness against him. 155 00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:00,280 Not only his fingerprints or footprints, but his hair, 156 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:03,280 the fibers from his clothes, the glass he breaks, 157 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:07,280 the tool mark he leaves, the paint he scratches, 158 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:10,280 the blood or semen he deposits or collects. 159 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,280 All of these and more bear mute witness against him. 160 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,280 This is evidence that does not forget. 161 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,280 It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. 162 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,280 It is not absent because human witnesses are. 163 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,280 It is factual evidence. 164 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,280 Physical evidence cannot be wrong. 165 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,280 It cannot perjure itself. 166 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,280 It cannot be wholly absent. 167 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,280 Only human failure to find it, study it and understand it, 168 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,280 can diminish its value. 169 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:38,280 End quote. 170 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:39,280 End quote. 171 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:40,280 Sorry. 172 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:41,280 Can I get that tattooed? 173 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:42,280 That's so bot. 174 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,280 That's so cool, right? 175 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:45,280 That's fucking bot. 176 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,280 And it's so true. 177 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,280 He's essentially saying, anybody that commits a crime, 178 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,280 I'm going to fucking figure it out. 179 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:54,280 You're fucked. 180 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:55,280 It's not impossible. 181 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:56,280 It's not impossible. 182 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:57,280 If anything, it's possible. 183 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:58,280 It's human error. 184 00:07:58,280 --> 00:07:59,280 That's the reason. 185 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,280 The evidence does not lie. 186 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:02,280 That's fucking awesome. 187 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,280 I know. 188 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,280 It's just like, you can't argue with that. 189 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,280 Everything he said is completely true. 190 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,280 So cool. 191 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,280 So just to break it down a little bit and just to get into more detail 192 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,280 what we're talking about, when a crime is committed, 193 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,280 fragmentary or trace evidence needs to be collected from the scene. 194 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,280 This is any type of material left or taken from a crime scene, 195 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,280 or the result of contact between two surfaces, 196 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:30,280 such as shoes and the floor or fibers exchanged from one garment touching another. 197 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,280 A team of technicians will approach a crime scene and seal it off 198 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,280 in order to avoid cross-contamination, 199 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:36,280 excuse me. 200 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:41,280 They will then record video and photos of the scene, victims if there are any present, 201 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,280 and items of evidence. 202 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,280 If necessary, they will also record ballistics examinations, like gunshot residue. 203 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,280 They check for foot, shoe, and tire mark impressions, 204 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,280 plus hair and fingerprints that may have been left over. 205 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:58,280 Due to all of these tedious things being taken from the ideas of one man in the past, 206 00:08:58,280 --> 00:08:59,280 Dr. Edmund Loughard, 207 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,280 he's considered to be the father of modern forensic science. 208 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,280 That's so cool. 209 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,280 He probably felt like such a badass. 210 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,280 He is a badass. 211 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:08,280 He does it all. 212 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,280 His exchange principle is the basis of all forensic work today. 213 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:17,280 In November of 2012, he was actually nominated to the French Forensic Science Hall of Fame, 214 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,280 even though he would ultimately pass away in 1966. 215 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,280 He was almost a hundred, though. 216 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:23,280 He was like ninety. 217 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:24,280 That's amazing. 218 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,280 Before the 19th century, most of the time in court and during an investigation, 219 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,280 witness testimonies were favored as opposed to evidence. 220 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,280 Most investigators would actually refuse to perform invasive procedures on the deceased, 221 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,280 to either emotional respect, squeamishness, and sometimes even superstitions. 222 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:45,280 This resulted in little to no evidence to collect and poor solverate of crimes. 223 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,280 With the addition of science into criminal investigations, things began to change. 224 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,280 Featured in vogue, forbs, and more, 225 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:02,280 Alleris has the most beautiful and expertly crafted diamond jewelry for that special someone in your life. 226 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,280 From engagement rings, pendants, and earrings, 227 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,280 you're sure to find the perfect gift that expresses exactly how you feel. 228 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,280 Click the link in the show notes to receive ten dollars off all orders plus free shipping. 229 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,280 Alleris, fitting all your jewelry needs from A to Z. 230 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,280 The first known use of science and logic for a crime investigation 231 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,280 was done by Alfonso Bertilin in the late 1800s. 232 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,280 He would develop what would become known as Bertilinage, 233 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:37,280 which is a procedure in which body measurements and other physical characteristics were recorded after a crime. 234 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,280 This information was then placed on a single ID card and put into the filing system, 235 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,280 whichever kind of filing system they had by the 1800s. 236 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:48,280 I actually, probably like one of those, I imagine it's one of those like library checkouts. 237 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:49,280 Yeah, exactly. 238 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,280 So prior to the use of fingerprint recognition, this was actually the most used system 239 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,280 when it came to tracking and identifying criminals. 240 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,280 Apart from body measurement, Bertilin was also responsible for the development of photos 241 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,280 for criminal IDs. 242 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:07,280 It would be Bertilin's contribution to their forensic sciences that influenced Dr. Loeckard, 243 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,280 who would also go on to work as a medical examiner during World War I. 244 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:12,280 Ooh. 245 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,280 Okay, this is where it's going to be a French quote. 246 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:17,280 Okay. 247 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,280 So I'm going to try my damnedest to say this directly. 248 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:20,280 I'll also say it in English. 249 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:21,280 Good luck. 250 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,280 So similarly to Alfonso Bertilin, or Alfonso Bertilin, 251 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,280 Edmund advocated for the use of science in criminal investigations. 252 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,280 According to him, quote, he can do it. 253 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:38,280 It is impossible to mal-fielter the agraravik. 254 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:39,280 What? 255 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:40,280 He's so German. 256 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:41,280 I can't do it. 257 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:48,280 Quote, intensity, which is supposed to be action, criminal, sounds, last year, 258 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,280 the strassi, the sound passage. 259 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,280 That's like Spanish next to the German next to French. 260 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,280 That's how you said it. 261 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:57,280 End quote. 262 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,280 No, it was an end quote before. 263 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:01,280 End quote. 264 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,280 So this loosely translates to in English, quote, 265 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,280 it is impossible for a criminal to act, especially considering the intensity of a crime, 266 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,280 without leaving traces of his presence. 267 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,280 So I thought I'd, you know, make y'all laugh a little bit. 268 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:15,280 I like that. 269 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,280 You should do that more often. 270 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:18,280 Oh, God. 271 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,280 He would go on to test this principle of exchange during many of his investigations. 272 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:23,280 Again, Edmund. 273 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:28,280 In 1930, he would publish three papers in the American Journal of Police Science, 274 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,280 which are now collectively known as Locard's Theory of Exchange. 275 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:37,280 Another significant contribution by Edmund involved, I think it's Dachtylography, 276 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,280 which is an area of studying involving fingerprints. 277 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:45,280 He developed poroscopy, which is the study of fingerprint pores and impressions produced by them. 278 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:50,280 So we're going to talk about a couple of cases where the exchange theory, like, was that work? 279 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,280 Okay. 280 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,280 So one of the most infamous cases demonstrating how his theory is applied came in 1912, 281 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,280 when police were investigating the death of a French woman named Marie Latel. 282 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,280 They were questioning her boyfriend, Emile Gorbin, 283 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,280 and he claimed that he was playing cards with his friends at the time of her death. 284 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,280 When police questioned the friends, they affirmed his claim. 285 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,280 Further investigation into the body determined that Marie had been strangled, 286 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:19,280 and police would actually get fingernail scrapings underneath Emile's fingernails to look for his skin cell samples. 287 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:26,280 Upon a closer look under the microscope, a pink dust was found in the cell samples collected from Edmund, 288 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:27,280 from the boyfriend. 289 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,280 By Edmund, excuse me. 290 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,280 He figured that it must have been makeup, and although popular at the time, 291 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:37,280 makeup was not very widely manufactured, so he was able to kind of narrow down where it came from. 292 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:43,280 So after searching further, he actually found the same chemist that had made a custom powder for Marie, 293 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:44,280 and the match was made. 294 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:45,280 Whoa. 295 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:46,280 In 1912. 296 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:47,280 Yeah. 297 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:48,280 That's amazing. 298 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,280 So with all evidence against him, Emile would ultimately confess to murder, 299 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,280 and he actually tricked his friends into believing his alibi. 300 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:59,280 So he was like, I don't know how he kind of said, like, maybe he's a lie for me, or maybe he like, 301 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,280 he's like, yeah, I wasn't there at six, or did I? 302 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:02,280 I was there at six. 303 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:03,280 Exactly. 304 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:04,280 That kind of thing. 305 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,280 Maybe it was six, I didn't look, but yeah. 306 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,280 So this is one of the many cases in which Le Carrot's exchange principle had changed the outcome of a case, 307 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,280 of course, with the finding of the makeup. 308 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:17,280 Yeah, and apparently, you know, there was witnesses or whatever to him having an alibi. 309 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:18,280 Exactly. 310 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,280 So that's interesting that it just completely. 311 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:21,280 It's like, no, the science doesn't lie. 312 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,280 He bumped it. 313 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:23,280 Yeah. 314 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:24,280 He had the makeup under his nails. 315 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:25,280 Yeah. 316 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:26,280 Wow. 317 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:27,280 So another case is the case of the Weimar children. 318 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:32,280 So Carola and Melanie Weimar, age five and seven, were living with their parents, Reinhardt 319 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:37,280 and Monika in Germany, when they were reported missing on August 4th, 1986. 320 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:42,280 Their bodies would ultimately be found three days later on August 7th, when the police had also 321 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,280 realized that they had been victims of murder. 322 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,280 Monika stated that the children had eaten breakfast that morning and then went to a playground. 323 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:55,280 She would later change her statement and say that the kids were already deceased when she returned home the previous night, 324 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:00,280 stating that Reinhardt, her husband, was sitting on the edge of Carola's bed, crying and confused, 325 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,280 and then he disposed of the bodies. 326 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,280 So differing statements, of course. 327 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,280 Totally different statement. 328 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:11,280 Both of the parents were suspected at first, but Monika was also known to have been having an affair, 329 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,280 and she was also seen with this gentleman, where Melanie's body was later found. 330 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,280 So again, I witnessed testimonies. 331 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:25,280 She was actually convicted of the murder, and after serving her sentence, she was released in 2006. 332 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:30,280 Investigators were able to determine what clothes Monika was wearing on the day her daughters went missing, 333 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,280 but not her husband. 334 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:38,280 Fibers from multiple different sources were able to later be used and compared in order to convict the father as well. 335 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:39,280 Whoa. 336 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,280 Again, that's that exchange, like his fibers on their clothes or vice versa. 337 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,280 I think there was also some linens from the bed that had been exchanged as well. 338 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,280 I didn't really go into super detail with these cases, obviously, because there's a couple, but yeah, that's that case. 339 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:52,280 Interesting. 340 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,280 And lastly, the case of Danielle Van Dam, seven years old. 341 00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:02,280 She lived with her parents and brother in San Diego, California, when she was reported missing on February 2nd, 2002. 342 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,280 Her body would be discovered on February 27th, the victim of a homicide. 343 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:12,280 Her neighbor, David Westerfield, was almost immediately suspected, and he would later be convicted of her kidnapping 344 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:18,280 after hair fibers from her dogs were actually found in his RV, resulting in his guilt being evident. 345 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:19,280 Yeah. 346 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,280 So just a few examples of the exchange principle at work. 347 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:27,280 Obviously, her fibers were exchanged from her clothing to his RV because she had played with her dogs in the past. 348 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:28,280 Yeah. 349 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:29,280 So I don't know. I just think it's kind of interesting. 350 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:30,280 It is really interesting. 351 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:31,280 Especially the fingernail one. 352 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,280 Some of those cases, though, it can just be circumstantial. 353 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,280 I mean, that's where we later come to the word circumstantial evidence. 354 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:39,280 Yeah, exactly. 355 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,280 Because he could have just given her a ride, didn't necessarily mean that he harmed her. 356 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,280 Or same thing with the parents, right? 357 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,280 The fibers were found, well, if they live in the same house, that might not be unusual. 358 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:49,280 Exactly. 359 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,280 And again, there's way more detail about these cases than the pepper that made it. 360 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,280 But speaking specifically on the exchange, not necessarily about somebody's guilt, right? 361 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:57,280 Yeah, exactly. 362 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:58,280 But talking specifically about the exchange. 363 00:16:58,280 --> 00:16:59,280 That's really interesting. 364 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:06,280 So, Locard's principle also holds up in computer forensics where committing cybercrime will result in a digital trace being left behind. 365 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:11,280 So, like every theory, there are some drawbacks of the Locard exchange principle. 366 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,280 One of the biggest lies in dynamics. 367 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:19,280 So this refers to the alteration of physical evidence before it's been examined by investigators. 368 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:25,280 So there's many factors that can lead to the tampering and destruction of evidence, such as staging by the perpetrator, 369 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:30,280 secondary transfer of evidence, actions of the victim before the crime, witness actions, 370 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,280 natural factors such as like animal activity or weather, and actions of police. 371 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:39,280 If they didn't get there in time or if they walked through the crime scene, that's why they secure the crime scene, of course. 372 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,280 These factors can lead to the removal or destruction of the evidence, and they can often mislead investigators, 373 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,280 causing problems with crime reconstruction. 374 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:53,280 Locard's exchange principle is used in forensic science every single day, and that's literally all I have. 375 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,280 I know it's going to be a short one, but I wanted to talk about it. 376 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:02,280 It's really interesting stuff, and you know, we might, I think, only talked about it maybe once or twice or mentioned it, 377 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,280 but never went into detail about what it is. 378 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:10,280 I don't think a lot of people know that term, and I think it's really interesting to know that term, 379 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,280 especially if you're true crime junkies like we are. 380 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:14,280 Yeah, for sure. 381 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,280 So, yeah, Locard's exchange principle. 382 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:23,280 I think maybe from here on out, we can maybe kind of pinpoint if and when that's used in a future case, 383 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:28,280 and we can bring it back up, and then people will know exactly what we're talking about because of this episode. 384 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:29,280 I love that. That's a great idea. 385 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,280 I think that was an interesting thing to kind of get more in detail about. 386 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:37,280 There's plenty of other examples of when it was used, but I thought that was kind of cool, those specific instances, 387 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,280 especially the boyfriend with the nails, it was like that was what cracked the case. 388 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:42,280 Yeah. 389 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,280 So yeah. 390 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:44,280 Like OJ's glove. 391 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:45,280 Yeah, exactly. 392 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,280 He left one at the scene, and then left one in his backyard or something. 393 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:50,280 Yeah, exactly. 394 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,280 I remember like, what was it? 395 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,280 BTK left like a knife by their, like where he used to cut their telephone line or something. 396 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,280 Didn't he leave his own cellphone or something? 397 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:58,280 Yeah. 398 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,280 It's like, that was the first thing you did when you got there and you left your knife. 399 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,280 Yeah, I saw it. 400 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,280 Cut the phone cord and left the fucking pliers. 401 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:06,280 Yeah, seriously. 402 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:07,280 It was funny. 403 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:08,280 Anyway, that's really interesting. 404 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:09,280 I like it. 405 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,280 I do enjoy that, and I like your suggestion of using that going forward. 406 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,280 I think that'll be really fun. 407 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:15,280 Yeah, that would be really fun. 408 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:16,280 Yeah. 409 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,280 You guys definitely get your tickets for the True Crime and Paranormal Podcast Festival. 410 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,280 That is August 25th through the 27th in Austin, Texas. 411 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,280 We do have a discount code on our website, 15% off if you go through our website, and 412 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,280 you use our, what's it called, code, D-A-K-P-O-D. 413 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,280 Yeah, coupon code. 414 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,280 Yeah, and if you guys would like to donate to the Patreon, again, just to remind everybody 415 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,280 that does help us maintain the website. 416 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,280 Of course, get some new merch items coming out, maintain even the hosting website where 417 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:41,280 we post our podcast. 418 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,280 Yeah, so we can get to all those platforms for you guys for sure. 419 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,280 Exactly. 420 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,600 So we definitely appreciate that, and a big thank you to all of our current patrons as 421 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:50,600 well. 422 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:51,600 Do you have a merch? 423 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:52,600 Yeah, I get some merch. 424 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,280 I got my Yikes and my Yikes shirt, and I love it. 425 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:56,280 It's really good. 426 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,280 I love your Yikes and my Yikes. 427 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:58,280 It's really good. 428 00:19:58,280 --> 00:19:59,280 Because you can see the shadowing on it. 429 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,280 Yeah, if you guys have any other merch suggestions, I think we have a couple more in the works, 430 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,520 but if you have anything that you want to see on a shirt, if you want a picture of our 431 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,840 lovely logo on a shirt, I think there's already one, but maybe a different type. 432 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:11,840 Let us know. 433 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:12,840 Yeah. 434 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,160 And especially knowing, you know, after John said what he said about the direct to garment, 435 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:18,160 that's really cool. 436 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:19,160 Yeah. 437 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,160 Because I have been saying the wrong word this whole time, and it's very much pressed 438 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,080 into the shirt, so it's high quality stuff. 439 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,080 Yeah, for sure. 440 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,080 We'll come. 441 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:27,080 Keep writing us, keep reviewing us. 442 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,880 We love all of the positive stuff that we're getting from you guys, and we love hearing 443 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:30,880 from you guys. 444 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:31,880 Yeah. 445 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,560 And look forward to Ted Bundy part two, and Duffry Dahmer for the Patreon, two and three 446 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:36,560 tiers this Thursday. 447 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:37,560 Yeah, it's so exciting. 448 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:38,560 All right. 449 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,560 We'll see you guys next time. 450 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:41,560 Love you. 451 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:42,560 Love you. 452 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,560 Bye. 453 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,200 Your mental health is super important to us. 454 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,320 So we're thrilled to announce that we were sponsored by BetterHelp to support you. 455 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:59,280 BetterHelp is the world's largest therapy service, and it's 100% online. 456 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,600 With BetterHelp, you can access a network of over 30,000 licensed therapists with a 457 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,000 wide range of specialties and be linked with the perfect match. 458 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,320 Whether it's via text, chat, or video call, you can talk to your therapist when it works 459 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,600 for you. 460 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,320 When it comes to your mental health, BetterHelp is a convenient and affordable option for 461 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:18,640 therapy. 462 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:24,280 Get 10% off of your first month at betterhelp.com slash dakpod. 463 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:41,320 That's betterhelp.com slash dakpod for 10% off your first month.