I'm Carly and this is Toxic Workplace Antidote Edition, a series of bonus episodes where
I talk to experts and thought leaders about toxic workplaces and how to survive them.
In this episode, I talk to Leslie Miller, a licensed independent clinical social worker
who takes a mind-body approach to physical and mental health.
She specializes in trauma therapy and healing from narcissistic abuse, which as we know
from some of the stories on this podcast, can happen in the workplace.
You're going to love this interview with Leslie.
I'm here with Leslie Miller to talk about mental abuse in the workplace.
Hi, Leslie, how are you?
Hi, good.
How are you?
I'm good.
Very happy to have you on the show.
You bring a wealth of knowledge around trauma abuse, specifically narcissistic abuse.
But before we dive into that, let's hear a little bit about your background.
Yeah.
I'm a therapist and coach in private practice and I'm based in the Boston area.
I've been a therapist in 1998.
I worked in various mental health settings for hospitals, you name it.
I also worked for organizations that did behavioral health services.
I became interested in narcissism when I did, particularly when I did family therapy and
I was working with parents.
I eventually went into working in the court system as a custody evaluator where I spent
about six years.
My feeling was that in respect to what's known as high conflict divorce where there's
custody and they're really heavily court involved, I did see a lot of abuse and narcissism
and other personality factors that I felt made it impossible for people to come to healthy
agreements or be able to co-parent with any degree of being able to put the child first.
That was very sad to me.
The issue of narcissistic abuse just really grew out of years of working in the field,
working with families, sort of seeing people really struggle in all walks of life.
My feeling was that when someone was dealing with someone that's highly narcissistic,
you see things like post-separation abuse where no matter what, things just don't
ever seem to get resolved.
That there's no court that can make the problem stop.
There's no therapy that can seem to make it stop.
There's no attorney that can make it stop for you.
There's just a continuation of it.
My practice is really focused on helping people recognize where they are, figure out what
they want to do, work through their trauma and move on with their lives.
Yeah, so it's interesting how you're saying you saw it, how you saw narcissism affect
all walks of life.
I think narcissist awareness is becoming more and more prevalent because people are realizing
that they're dealing with them and it's not just at home or with your family, it also
can be at the workplace.
The odds of somebody encountering a narcissist or possibly somebody that's abusive is highly
likely.
Do you agree?
It is.
It's statistically the odds are high that you will come in contact with someone who's
highly narcissistic, maybe a psychopath.
No one really has exact numbers because people that have personality disorders don't go
into treatment.
It hardly ever happens.
The prevalence I think is a lot higher than is even known statistically.
I feel like the odds for people are high that in a corporate setting or in any work environment,
you're going to be dealing with people with severe characterological issues.
There's some inevitability to it.
It's hard, like you say, there's not data out there because how are you going to prove
it?
You can't get the hard evidence to prove it.
You can just get these stories of people saying this is what happened, but you can't really
measure it because people would say, well, you can't just blanket apply narcissism to
anybody that has toxic behavior.
One of the things when you reached out to me about how narcissistic people get positions
of power in the workplace, what do you think helps them become successful?
What is it that narcissists have over people that aren't narcissistic?
Right.
Well, I mean, when you look at the definition of what is narcissism, if you're talking about
a narcissist that is grandiose, they maybe exaggerate their talents and abilities.
Maybe they outright lie depending on how malignant they are and how far they're willing to go.
That grandiosity in a corporate setting can come across as confidence.
Especially when we're talking about male employees.
So, you know, there are some real gender differences when we talk about grandiosity, but it can
come across as confident in the workplace that this person is a go-getter or they're
able to do hard things, have difficult conversations, not afraid to take risks.
They're not afraid to be in a profession where they're highly visible.
In fact, they gravitate toward upper level management, maybe startup companies, medical
fields, certainly things like sales, law, anything creative, media.
Those are fields that, you know, visibility and attention is really what a narcissistic
person seeks and that fits the bill going both ways.
It also has a lot of entitlement, so, you know, they're willing to take credit for
things that maybe they didn't rightfully earn.
So, someone who's working extra hours to get something done to kind of quote unquote
make the boss look good.
And then, you know, the boss kind of stands up and grandstands on how hard he works or
she works, never really crediting the people that make that happen behind the scenes.
And that can come across as just being really competitive.
So, you know, one of the other hallmarks of narcissism is that the belief along with the
entitlement that they're superior.
You know, they don't always necessarily believe it, but they certainly promote that that's
what they believe.
So, being better than the next guy and only wanting to affiliate with other special high
status people.
That can be seen as competitive.
So, in an organization, what works for the organization will allow for tremendous negative
behaviors because the organization sees it as, you know, helps their bottom line in some
way.
We're going to put this attention seeking person out front because it's making us look
good.
It's making us a profit.
It's functioning in some way to support the organization.
Yes.
And the people promoting don't necessarily even see or know that this person isn't a
narcissist.
I think that's what maybe people that haven't experienced this get confused on is like,
it's hard to know when you're in it.
If somebody is a narcissist.
I mean, would you say there's clear signs that our red flags right out the gate or would
you say it's something more specifically in a workplace setting?
Because it in business or in any sort of organization that has rankings, you could be a competitive
person.
How would you know if somebody is narcissistic versus just a normal competitive, highly driven
person?
Yeah, that's a great question.
It's sometimes hard to figure these things out.
It's very easy to get drawn in by a narcissist.
You know, often they're really charming.
Like when we talk about romantic relationships and we talk about what happens early on is
sort of this love bombing stage, which is followed by being devalued.
That happens in the workplace too.
You know, at first, maybe this person was on their best behavior and you really felt
a sense of connection or, you know, this is somebody I want to work with or learn from
or at least have a good working relationship.
And what happens is that it turns very suddenly and very unpredictably on a dime and you feel
like the bottom just dropped out and you don't really know what happened.
And we tend to look for, you know, it's very natural to blame yourself, particularly, you
know, in a work setting.
We have goals, we have things that we're expected to achieve.
And so when those things don't happen, it's very natural to blame yourself.
You know, all of us who've ever worked for a corporation or have had a boss of any kind,
you know, we have to take in feedback.
You know, hey, that could have been better or this is what you could have done differently.
And I'd like to see that next time.
A narcissist is not going to play fair.
It's going to be, you know, often a lot of head game, you know, behind it.
Maybe you're great one day, but you're the worst the next.
And it's that walking on eggshells feeling that I think really tells the story that you
may be dealing with somebody with a character disorder, you know, that has a lot of narcissistic
traits, possibly anti-social traits, particularly if you feel like they really don't have empathy.
You know, you're starting to figure out that they really don't care about my aspirations
at this company or they really don't care that I have a sick kid at home today and I
need to leave to take them to the doctor or they really don't care that I haven't taken
a vacation in two years and I have a chance to go, but there's something they want me
to do and give that up.
And these are kind of more extreme examples, but I think that sort of that gut feeling
that I never know what this person's going to do next, what kind of mood they're going
to be in.
I never know if I'm doing a good job or not.
I never know if I'm meeting the expectations.
I never know if I'm going to be here next week.
And just that uneasy feeling, I think tells the story.
You know, the terminology for narcissistic abuse is fairly recent.
I mean, for a long time, abuse was considered primarily physical.
Little by little, people started to talk more about verbal abuse and psychological abuse.
And there was a period of time where there was very little information out there.
There was a book by Patricia Evans that was like life-changing.
It was all about verbal abuse.
And she talked about every kind of style of verbal abuse and she talked about the personality
traits of the verbal abuser.
And she never once used the word narcissist, but really that's what she was describing.
That's a wonderful book.
Wonderful.
There's a couple of them.
She's a trailblazer.
I highly recommend that.
She gives some really good strategies of how to respond to specific scenarios of verbal
abuse.
But when we're talking about psychological abuse or verbal abuse, it never really went
far enough in terms of the why.
Because people would be left with why me?
Why are they hurting me?
Why me?
You know, that why question would come up and come up and come up.
And what is helpful about being able to call something by a more specific name.
And you know, we're not diagnosing, you know, I can't diagnose someone a narcissist if they're
not sitting in front of me, but I can if I hear that someone has abused you without empathy
for years on it, then we can make a connection and we can explain it.
That it isn't the why part of it starts to melt away.
And it's like, oh, it was never about me.
And that's ultimately very healing that you have an understanding that you were never
there.
You were you were largely invisible as you received this form of abuse.
So on the narcissistic spectrum, because you have the malignant narcissist and the covert
narcissist and one of the one of the things about a narcissist is they're going to be
nice to you and charm you and build you up as long as you're serving their needs.
And I think in a workplace setting, it could go on for a very long time.
It could be years that you're serving their need in the workplace in some way.
Maybe the process or task hasn't changed or maybe something happens and now you're seeing
a different side and you start seeing a side of them that they've been able to hide for
a long time.
In my own experience and people I've talked to, it's like they stay in these workplaces
for a really long time and it's really hard then to get out.
And it is similar to a romantic relationship.
It's harder to uncover.
Right, right.
I think it can be very difficult to uncover because the narcissist will go to greater
lengths to hide their behavior in the workplace than they will at home.
At home or in a relationship, at a certain point, people start to just sort of let it
all hang out and it can really dissolve into physical violence and other things.
Whereas in the workplace, their goal is to maintain power and in doing so, they have
to fly under the radar just enough and they're experts at doing that.
It's like how far can I push this person without completely pushing them over the edge or maybe
I'll push them over the edge but I'll grab them at the last second.
They're the master at doing that.
It's a kind of manipulation that is next level that happens on the job and often people,
it takes them a really long time to figure out what's going on.
One of the things that happens is that on a job, they all have a desire to do well,
possibly advance in the organization.
Certainly there's a motivation to have a paycheck, bonuses, maintain your standard of living.
Wherever you're at in life, everybody needs an income.
Right.
So it's a tremendous motivator.
Yes.
It's a tremendous motivator which makes us vulnerable to workplace abuse, things like
bullying, things like threats.
When you think about sales, a sales force is coming go pretty regularly.
People in sales, they burn out really, really quickly.
If you're not in the top three and getting awards and bonuses, you're basically going
to be gone.
The person at the bottom is always compared to the person at the top.
In an unhealthy situation, let's say you've got some really narcissistic manager, they
might not be so nice about letting you know that, hey, you're never going to be like this
person here, trying to triangulate with people.
Of course, if you're not doing as well as you would like to be doing, you're going to
feel really bad about yourself and it's easy to focus on, well, what do I need to do to
make this person happy?
How can I survive?
Once we go into that survival mode, we're not really requiring a lot for ourselves.
It's just getting by.
When someone is really cruel at work or bullish or it can be really covert, comments that
are, it's like, was that an insult, was that a threat, I'm not really sure.
There was just something about it that you felt that it was implied, although it wasn't
really stated.
That happens a lot, particularly with somebody who's more of a covert narcissist.
They're really good at covering their tracks.
They're making comments that you spin it in your head over and over and over again.
That process of trying to figure out what's going on or maybe just feeling shocked and
stunned that you were actually threatened or your job was threatened or there was something
implied.
I think people go into sort of almost a trauma-like state that their security may change, that
your workplace is part of your foundation.
It's part of one of your primary sources of stability.
When that's threatened, we have a series of mini shocks, like, okay, today this happened
and what does this mean?
When we're in that place, we're no longer really evaluating how bad we're being treated
or that, hey, it's not me, it's really them.
You're just not requiring being treated well anymore because you're in survival mode.
Part of that, it's like a slow burn kind of thing where it's a slow buildup, these little
shock things that the day is going well and overall, let's say 70% of your time at work
is not abusive, but it's the buildup of these little things throughout the week or the month
or your time at this company that kind of compound into the abuse.
Nobody's punching you in the face and you're like, why are they beating me up?
It's like these little jabs and then you try to normalize it in your head like, well, am
I just being sensitive?
Maybe this is the corporate world, we need to buck up and just take it because this is
business, which I'm really interested in your thoughts on more collectively and more on
a societal level.
What do you think has been the driving force behind creating narcissists?
When you talk about it's like a breeding ground almost, or it's like the structure of an organization
and how there's ranking and how it's beneficial almost to be narcissistic.
It's almost like which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Did the narcissistic leaders of the past kind of formulate this business place?
You've touched on a really big macro point because it is a systemic problem and it's
a cultural problem.
On the one hand, we tend to value extroversion in people more than introverts.
Extroverts get a lot of attention, people want to be more extroverted, they almost apologize
for being not showman type of personality, society rewards, that sort of thing.
I think that from the beginning of time and probably to the end of time, there are always
going to be people that rise to the top, whether it's through cruel, aggressive means or just
being alpha.
I think that it's the manipulation, it's the tendency to exploit that makes narcissism
particularly toxic and really can affect people's sense of well-being and their health, including
their relationship.
Yes.
Talking about the impact being in that narcissistic abuse has on somebody, if it goes on too long,
what are some of the things that you've seen or you've been exposed to?
What effects does it have physically?
The depression or people go on medications, what are the different mental and physical
illnesses that people can develop?
One of the things people talk to me about is they'll say things like, and this is something
I hear often, that the minute I see that person's name in my inbox or on my phone, I feel my
blood pressure go up or I feel nauseous, I feel panicky, I feel my heart really racing.
If you're there, it's time to find the door.
If you are by just seeing that person on your phone and you have regular communication with
them, if this is just a one-off once in a while that you have to deal with this personality,
okay.
But if this is a daily kind of barrage and you have that kind of physical visceral reaction
to just knowing they are communicating with you and there's an expectation that you have
to respond, then that is a clear sign.
Now, day in and day out, your blood pressure spiking, your heart beating out of your chest,
feeling nauseous, feeling that sense of tension, it's very hard to let go of that.
Your heart rate is going to stay high for a while.
It's not going to come down right away.
This is how we get things like high blood pressure, hypertension, staying in this tight
hypervigilant mode where your body is just so tight almost you're preparing to be for
some kind of unexpected event that you know will have negative consequences.
Feeling threatened chronically, it's like staying in that fight-flight-freeze mode.
It's like I'm going to hide in my bunker until it's safe to come out.
Well, when you're in your bunker, you're not really that comfortable and it's not a happy
place.
You might be safe for a little while, but you're worrying about what's going to happen
when you finally have to leave.
When you're doing that constantly and there's this kind of chronic assault to your nervous
system, these types of chronic illnesses, things like headaches, GI upset, heart problems,
anxiety, certainly depression as well, starting to feel demoralized and giving up hope that
there's no way out.
In some instances, that's the case.
There are people that feel very, very stuck where they are, whether it's that they've
been there so many years and they don't feel like there's anything out there for them.
It's not a simple thing to just say, okay, I'm done.
I'm going to go work elsewhere.
I think that that sense of being trapped and not having options are really, really punishing
to your health.
Yeah, it's horrible.
People feel trapped.
Even on my show, I've had guests who have had thoughts of suicide and there's people
out there who get to that point and it's a serious, devastating state to be in.
I think that when we look at what suicide is, it's a way out.
It's a way to stop the pain.
It's a way to rescue the self away from something intolerable, whether it's an internal struggle,
whether it's an external struggle, or whether it's both.
I think that severe bullying over time is tremendously damaging.
It's a trauma for people, particularly when there's no one that can rescue us and there's
nowhere to go with it.
Being trapped and just having to endure, it's incredibly harmful to anyone's mental health.
It's tragic and it's happening and corporations are getting away with having bullies in the
workplace.
How do you get justice?
Right, right.
Well, for something like that, clearly there never will be.
Abuse is abuse and it has devastating effects on anyone.
I would suspect that the person doing the bullying also has some kind of mental health
history and possibly trauma.
We don't know what was there, but as adults we're all accountable, so it really doesn't
matter if it's on that person to get help for things like aggression, things like anger,
things like inappropriate behavior.
That's what I tell people, assess your environment.
If you're dealing with this type of situation, is there anyone you can go to?
Generally the answer is no.
Nobody in HR I trust or there is no HR department.
It's a small company or I could talk to this person, but I'm not sure.
I have a feeling that might get back to the person that I'm concerned about.
That is a no-win scenario and the only thing someone really can do is leave if they can.
You spend more time waking hours at work than you do anywhere else.
You're not even home as much as you are in the office if you're going to work and showing
up in person.
When you think about it, it's even more devastating in some regard because all your waking hours
are spent with this tremendous hostility and unpredictability.
You can't escape because you have to be there and you're there all day.
Usually the only way is out and unfortunately some people, they feel like there's no way
out.
Your strategies to cope, if you're in that environment and you're biding your time, you're
not leaving right now but you know you're getting out, how would you suggest people
deal with that on a daily basis?
Being aware of it, but how do you get through that?
The first thing is people have to understand that these psychological games and psychological
abuse is never their fault.
They need to have someone in their life that's reminding them that this is not your problem.
I know they've made it your problem but this is not about you.
It's not that you're an inferior person.
It's not that it's your fault.
You did nothing to attract this to yourself.
Really separating yourself from the behavior is critical.
Self care is huge.
Noticing that if your blood pressure is going up when you're getting a text message or
an email from this toxic personality, you need to start paying attention to that.
If you're feeling depressed on Sunday or really, really anxious, you need to start noticing
that.
Building time in, time off for yourself, time to go and exercise, setting boundaries and
limits.
One of the classic toxic behaviors of a boss that is toxic is emailing after hours and
wanting to have communication and have you be available anytime.
Setting boundaries, turning the phone off, that is so hard to do because people walk
in the next day and they're terrified.
I didn't respond to that.
What's going to happen to me now?
But it's necessary to protect yourself and to set limits.
To practice grounding techniques, you can get with a therapist, there are wonderful
YouTube videos on how to ground yourself so that you can sort of get yourself less reactive
so that when someone's coming at you with something completely unreasonable, not something
that you want to give your nervous system over to, learning some techniques to be more
of a responder versus a reactor.
It's like, do I need to really engage in this?
Is this more of the same crazy making behavior?
Probably.
Do I need to give up my day, my nervous system?
Probably not.
Really being able to ask those critical questions.
Keeping a journal.
I tell people, write down the things that you're concerned about.
Keep a journal of the behaviors that you find concerning, that you feel are abusive to you
or unfair or inappropriate or threatening.
Figuring out what your B plan is going to be, your escape plan.
I shouldn't even call it a B plan because really it should become your A plan.
But I would also say that if you're somewhere where you really love where you are because
it's the perfect job for you, this is the job of your dreams and you've worked really
hard to get there and it's really just one person that makes your life miserable and
it's not an unhealthy environment.
We're talking about a person.
It's that that doesn't determine your destiny and don't allow it to.
Talk to other people and find out whether they're going through it too.
Whether they see what you see.
I mean, obviously you need to protect yourself and be careful about that, but I also don't
suggest that somebody go running for the door at the first sign of this either because it's
likely that where you go next.
You may encounter this again.
Finding strategies where you make it clear that you have boundaries and limits and that
you're not fearful of this person.
You know what?
I'm not going anywhere unless you can give me a reason.
One of the things that I tell people also, things like gaslighting.
This person just gaslights all the time.
I mean, you just go back to the main thing, the main thing, the main thing.
Just like you would if you were defending yourself, had to go to court or something.
What is the important point here?
Not getting all spun around by some false narrative.
That takes a lot of discipline because it's easy for us to become defensive, reactive.
On your website, you have your types of therapy, your coaching and mentoring, and then this
EMDR.
Tell me a little bit about that and how that treats people.
EMDR is for trauma treatment.
It's a type of way of working with trauma that doesn't require talking in depth about
whatever it is, either a traumatic memory, a traumatic event.
It could be a series of events.
Sometimes, people have a very, very hard time talking about those things and they feel re-traumatized
by retelling the story and it doesn't really make it better.
EMDR is based on the theory of trauma, which is more recent.
That trauma is stored in the body.
When we're traumatized, our amygdala, which is a more primitive type of place in the brain
where it's our fight, flight, freeze, our sense memories, our muscle memories, they're
all stored in the amygdala.
When we are under threat, our amygdala really activates.
Our heart rate goes up and we're ready to either fight or flee or play dead.
When that happens, our decision-making part of the brain, our analytical part of the brain,
our logic and reasoning part of the brain goes offline because we don't want to be slowed
down by thinking too much.
We want to run or we want to fight.
Our amygdala is really active and that's where trauma gets stored because we weren't in our
logic brain when the event happened.
What that means is that somewhere in the body, trauma gets almost encoded.
EMDR is a method of using sound.
It can use tapping.
It can use rapid eye movement.
It's a way to process trauma by stimulating both sides of the brain.
The therapist will use different cues that you establish together to process feelings
without necessarily talking about the trauma.
It's a way to talk to your body and talk to your triggered self versus your logic self
which wasn't really there to witness the trauma, if that makes sense.
Is that connected to PTSD?
How when you were saying a client saw a name on the emails or when you hear a name of somebody,
your old boss that was abusive, I get this way when I think of my old workplace.
I get worked up and my blood pressure probably increases.
Is that the same sort of, is that like a trauma response?
It is and it certainly can be.
It can be just as simple as that this is unsafe.
I don't know why it's unsafe but I feel unsafe right now when I communicate with this person.
Sometimes it's just your body's alarm system goes off and it's telling you something isn't
right.
Where it becomes trauma is when it's repeated and unresolved and chronic or it resembles
an earlier experience in life.
Let's say your boss does things that really erode your sense of yourself, your confidence
and you experienced past abuse whether it was a parent, a teacher, an intimate partner.
Then we're talking about really, really bad trauma because now old trauma is reactivated
by this new stimulus.
So it's like the same entity but coming out in a different way, in a different scenario
but it's the same sort of manipulative abuse or whatever that triggers that.
So would you say EMDR is effective?
Have you seen improvement?
Some people really, really respond well to that and others do better with mindfulness.
Things like becoming aware and noticing their experience without going into the trauma.
There are ways to practice that every single day that are effective.
Things like trauma-sensitive yoga or really any kind of yoga.
Some people prefer doing trauma-sensitive because they feel unsafe in their bodies and
that moving around can make them feel unsafe.
So working in a situation where the teacher is skilled at knowing, really understanding
trauma and can give people modifications, that's really important.
But any kind of mind, body, because we want our mind and our body to talk to each other
in a way that's loving and harmonious and not, I feel one way, I think one thing but
I feel completely different.
That's where stress happens.
And it's interesting the mindfulness and I have a question for you.
Can a narcissist get into mindfulness and yoga and all of this Buddhist-based beliefs
or just the awareness and mindfulness and get therapy that way without realizing they're
a narcissist?
Do you think that it's possible?
I'm skeptical, I think.
I have a lot of skepticism.
People can use things that are healthy and good and also make it into something that
reflects their insides.
And when you think about things like people in churches, hospitals, religious organizations,
things can even be yoga.
They can exploit people's desire to either be a helper, a giver or be a spiritual person.
I mean, we've seen that happen in churches.
So I'm skeptical that someone would, there's personality structure would change by doing
any form of exercise without a lot of therapy.
Could it help regulate mood?
Yes, absolutely.
It's interesting you bring up churches and organizations that maybe a nonprofit and maybe
the CEO is positioning himself or herself to be this wonderful, caring, loving.
I mean, those are always the worst stories when it's like the pastor of the church or
it's almost the most dangerous when it's a...
It is.
An organization like that.
It is because it's someone that people look up to and trust and will make themselves vulnerable
to out of that belief system.
That is very, very devastating when that gets exploited by someone who people look up to.
It's the ultimate manipulation.
So let's turn the topic now to your website.
A link will be in the podcast notes, but tell us about your coaching and your therapy sessions
and how to get ahold of you.
Yes, absolutely.
So for coaching services, you can be really anywhere in the world and contact me.
We do our sessions online and you can find me at my website, which is just my name.
That's Leslie Miller, L-I-C-S-W.com.
For people seeking counseling and they're in Massachusetts, I'm licensed in Massachusetts,
so we can work in a more therapeutic method.
But for coaching and consultation, you can be anywhere.
So one of the many benefits of being online now too.
So for anyone that's interested in doing an online course and maybe they're not sure
they want to do coaching like a one-on-one thing and they want to just sort of see what
it's about, I do offer an online course.
It's going to be loaded and available very shortly.
I'm also developing a coaching platform in which people can do one-on-one coaching in
addition to doing an online group thing.
So both things will be shortly available.
And I also work with trauma and health and wellness related issues.
So somebody's feeling that they've got chronic health things going on and they're not really
sure what's going on, but they know it's stress related.
I also welcome them to contact me as well.
That's fantastic.
So if you're listening and you have gone through trauma, whether it's a toxic workplace or
a toxic relationship or some sort of trauma in your life, head to Leslie's website, contact
her.
She's fantastic and has been a fabulous guest.
Leslie Miller, l-i-c-s-w.com.
There's support groups on there.
Leslie has a fantastic blog, lots of resources, facts, and free information.
Leslie thank you so much for coming on the show.
It's been a pleasure.
Good luck with your practice and all of the success you have coming your way.
You too.
Take care.
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