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My name's Carly, and this is Toxic Workplace Antidote Edition.
In these antidote episodes, I speak with professionals and thought leaders that are paving
the way for healthier work environments.
November 18th is International Cult Awareness Day, so in light of cult awareness, today
I'm sharing my interview with Amanda Fangman.
Amanda is an aspiring writer and educator who specializes in teaching people about
undue influence and coercive control in the workplace, from labor trafficking and exploitation
to cultic abuse at work.
Amanda shared her story of working in a cult business on a magazine crew on my last episode,
so if you haven't listened to her story yet, I highly recommend you do so, maybe even
before you listen to this interview, because she does refer to her own experience quite
a bit.
Amanda seeks to arm people with the crucial knowledge she was she had before joining the
workforce.
General awareness of these issues, education on the warning signs, and indicators of a
high control workplace.
Alright, Amanda, it's great to have you back on the show.
I talked to you last week.
You shared your story.
It was an excellent story, and you shared a lot of the reflection that you've had in
the past couple of years, your realization that you were part of a cult, and once you
realized what had happened, you really started to do a lot of research, a lot of self-reflection.
So let's sort of start with what does it mean to be in a cult?
Sure.
A cult's kind of that word that gets thrown around these days, kind of like narcissism
and trauma.
It gets thrown around a little bit, but there are differences between something that is
a cult and is not a cult.
And one of the leading experts in cult research, who I'll probably reference a lot in this,
Dr. Stephen Hasson, and what he says is, a destructive cult is an authoritarian regime
with a person or a group of people that have basically a dictatorship, and they're at
the top.
They're the control of everything.
It uses deception to recruit new members and does not tell them what the group is, what
the group actually believes, and what will be expected of them if they become members.
They'll use mind control techniques to keep people dependent, obedient, and loyal.
And basically, it's something that you think going into it, it's this thing, and then it
completely just, some are salts and it's something else.
And you won't even know that it did that some are salt.
You won't even know that you're in a cult.
It's just so insidious and so subtle that I don't want to say brainwashing, but the
indoctrination process and all of that, you won't quite even realize what's happening
to you.
Right, which relating it back to your story, when you first got to the Mag Crew, it was
all of these things.
It was very generic.
You didn't really have an understanding.
Can you kind of talk about that a little bit, how like defining it in the form of your
story?
Yeah.
So, the Mag Crew experience, the promise that there was for me and everybody else was
that life, or sorry, freedom from the man, which is funny because we were literally controlled
by a man and his wife and the managers.
Success, travel, all the fun, lots of money, the potential to run your own business, which
would be a Mag Crew of your own.
That sounds great, but what did we have to sacrifice to get that?
And that was living and breathing their rules, which we knew all the rules up front, the
ones that they gave us, but as you go on, you're not going to be inundated with every
single rule the first day you get there, or you're probably just going to be, okay, this
is too much, we're done.
So there was a lot that my brain was overloaded with that first night and that first week,
but there's a lot of things they did too that was just very slow and subtle.
And so we're living and breathing their rules or suffering the consequences, and that suffering
is an immediate either.
It's not like you forget your ducket or your little pad case and you're immediately slapped
in the face or slapped in the head with it.
Week one, that's something where you're already loyal enough and that if you get slapped in
the head with your ducket, you're not out the door.
You're like, okay, I'm not going to forget that again.
Right.
It almost just feels like rules and structure in a way because any organization needs structure
or a set of rules.
When people think of cults, it's like, oh, how do you really get dragged into a cult like
that?
It's like, you say it doesn't slap you in the face.
It's very subtle and it just starts to grow.
And there's this promise of something shiny at the top.
And in your case, it was this promise to live in a nice house in Florida.
Yeah, my gated neighborhood in Florida with a spa and a tennis court.
Yeah, not that I ever wanted that beforehand, but you change your goals in life when you
totally abandon the ones that you had before you joined the cult.
So yeah, there's always that promise of fulfillment.
There is always this goal or mission of any cult.
And it's so crazy because you can look at a religious or a political or a self-help
or a business cult.
And the way that they work, it's almost the same.
It's almost like there's this handbook out there.
The thing that'll make it different is that promise of fulfillment, like what are we
doing?
What is our goal?
What are we here for?
So you have that mission that aligns with your values, but you don't really realize what
you're sacrificing to get there.
And so I didn't realize that by joining this crew that I didn't even know what it was ahead
of time, but in those first days, not really putting it together that I'm going to be knocking
doors six days a week, seven if I just wrote shit for sales, nine to 10, sometimes more
and sometimes less if you got your quota super early.
But I didn't realize I was going to be exhausting myself, working with very little break or
downtime to myself and no time for any personal reflection or hobbies or anything like that.
It was just a level of honesty that we all have or morals.
And I can't say perfect before the road.
I had my faults, but I like to think that I was a pretty honest person.
And if somebody would have said that I was going to be lying to thousands of strangers
every month and all sorts of other shady stuff, I wouldn't have jumped in headfirst.
I would have said, no, thank you.
So those are those little things that you end up having to do.
They make you a completely different person and that's just not what you ever wanted going
in.
Right.
And you're conforming to the group or you're conforming to the organization.
And I think of a firm structure because I worked in a firm.
It has the hierarchy.
It has the persuasive influence at the top.
I'm not saying it's a cult, but there is the idea of like, you know, you can make partner
at the end.
So if you do all of these things, you could be a partner.
You could get a corporate vehicle paid for by the firm.
There's definitely aspects of what you're talking about that I can see in a workplace,
specifically a firm setting, which is my background.
But even the episodes, the one about jewels, she worked in sales and you're talking about
conforming to these rules or doing things that are not moral or unethical that you never
would have done in the first place.
I know she experienced that just the way she was treating people because that's what was
expected of her.
And I know she didn't feel good about it.
And you can't really describe that to somebody who's never experienced it.
If you haven't experienced it, it's hard to explain because it's not like you're a bad
person or she's a bad person.
It's just being in that, you know, under those conditions.
Yeah.
And there is a lot of victim shaming around this stuff and a lot of shame that survivors
have to overcome because of that and just by itself.
You know, I never set out to, and I, you know, I only did it once, but once was enough to
hit somebody and I can't even remember why.
But for whatever reason, he was doing something against whatever rule or, like, again, I don't
even know why.
Like, I just felt compelled to slap this kid in the face.
And I remember thinking in that moment, like, why did I just do that?
And I look back at it a lot.
I mean, I've obviously wrestled with my siblings and we got, we threw, threw hands, but like,
I barely knew this kid and because of what he maybe mouthed off or didn't, I don't even
know, and I was almost hit by somebody because I scoffed in the back of the car when I was
fairly new.
Like, you don't think that you're going to go into something and you're going to be
slapping people for the smallest.
Yeah, it's just crazy.
And then having people coming out of it, like, well, what the hell is wrong with you?
Why did you do this or that or that?
And like, man, I already have enough shame around this, but that's the thing is until
you understand it and know exactly what was happening and you're able to pick apart how
that cult or that group got you to that point, like you just don't know and people who've
never been in it, especially don't know.
Right.
And, you know, anybody could get sucked into a cult.
It's not just, you know, it's not specific people.
Like anybody could be susceptible to joining.
You know, like, why do you think that is?
How do you think people get sucked into this in the first place?
It really comes down to where they're at in their life in the moment that somebody approaches
them.
There's a lot of qualities that somebody who might join a cult has and a lot of that comes
down to optimism, idealism, just really having a lot of hope for their lives.
And if somebody comes up to them with this smile, seemingly genuine warmth, then they're
selling them whatever it is that they're missing in their life at that moment.
It's easy for that person to latch on and be like, oh, wow, I just, you know, I lost
my job and now you're offering me this amazing opportunity to make $1,000 a week.
You know, you're down on your luck and you've got this person who seems like they've got
a lot of hope in you and they're telling you that you're, you've got such potential and
in whatever, you know, love bombing of whatever sort, then yeah, it's easy for that person
who just lost their job or just got a divorce or broke up from boyfriend, girlfriend or,
you know, even just had a baby.
Others are very vulnerable to especially multi-level marketing schemes, the pyramid schemes, because,
you know, they just had a baby.
They're feeling lonely and especially if they're stay-at-home moms and they're not bringing
in any sort of income for their families and this chick down the road says, oh, if you
sell these leggings, you can make like a million dollars.
Oh, wow, I can do this from home and I can stay at home with my family and be with my
kids and that's the dream that they're sold, but in reality, what it takes to get near
the top of that pyramid is a lot of ignoring your kids, your family and your well-being
and yeah, the next thing you know, you're in a cult.
Yeah, and I'm thinking of like an example of where maybe somebody that isn't necessarily
vulnerable but they're at a point where they're like, you know what, I want to reach the top.
I'm ambitious, I want to make a lot of money and I'm looking for a better opportunity than
this very basic job that I have and something comes along that's like, oh, you could be
a millionaire and we only take straight shooters and hot shots at this place and you know,
more of like a feeding the ego kind of cult where it's like, we are the elite of the elite
and not necessarily like joined because we can give you, well yeah, essentially joined
because we can give you a better life is really what it boils down to whether your baseline
for life is you're struggling because you're trying to make ends meet or you're not struggling
but you want to, you have a desire to be a millionaire and somebody promises that you
can.
Right, I was just listening to a podcast episode and I've watched quite a few of this guy's
videos where he brings down self-help gurus or wealth management gurus, all sorts of
those types of people and that's exactly what they're playing on.
You get this ad on your YouTube video and it's this dude in a Lamborghini in front of
this giant ass house and he's saying, I've got the answers, just buy my $5,000 course,
you can give $5,000 to make a million dollars, it's not that much upfront and if you don't
even have a job or you don't even have $100 in your bank account, yeah $5,000 is a lot
and this happened to me in a body language training program that I bought into several
years ago was, oh my gosh, I can be a body language coach, I can run my own business
just like this lady and okay, I'll take out a personal loan for $5,000 and be in debt
for the next three years because it didn't work and if it doesn't work then it's your
fault, it's nothing about the system, the system works, all the answers are right here
so, yeah, it's just like that.
If it's not an actual company or business, it's some a-hole in a Lamborghini that he
rented for a day in front of a house that he doesn't even own and he's telling you he's
got all the answers and you can have this if you just blank blank blank and while that
may not be a cult leader, it's all kind of like scams are a lot the same, it's just not
a cult, it's just a lot of what you're latching onto is very similar.
Right, you're buying into a fake promise.
You know, I quit my job and started self-help whatever or I became a coach and now I'm a
millionaire and it's just, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is kind of thing.
Of course, people are always looking to make more money.
People, listeners of this podcast, you know, you're in a vulnerable position because you're
in a toxic workplace and you want so desperately to find a better job, the job of your dreams
just to get out and find somewhere normal, you know, you're kind of at a vulnerable position
there.
So I think it's important to know the red flags of a cult type organization.
So let's talk about some of the red flags that people might see in a job listing or
during an interview.
Okay, yeah, and we're going to be going through what it looks like on the job post or if somebody
approaches you and then what it looks like in the interview and then if you happen to
fall into that job, what it looks like there.
I want this to be informative and I especially want it to help people who may be in that
type of culty business atmosphere, but I don't want people to walk away and just because,
you know, related to one or two things now they're thinking they're in a cult.
Not every toxic workplace is a cult, it might have characteristics of a cult but not be
full blown, but every commercial cult is an extremely toxic place to work.
So if anybody is feeling like they relate to this a little bit too much, I recommend
doing a little bit more research beyond what you hear here.
So we'll start with job listings and a lot of this, all of this comes down to how people
are trying to influence you.
You know, you're on your job hunt and you're looking through job listings or whatever it
may be, whatever people are doing these days, you just kind of want to be on the lookout
for how these types of job listings are trying to influence you.
So the goal of a recruiter or job listing in general is to showcase the company in a
positive way.
They want the right people to come to them and so they want to influence the top candidates
to apply there.
In an interview, the company should want to learn who you are.
So you're trying to influence them to hire you, nothing wrong with that.
And if they think you're a good candidate and they're going to influence your decision
to choose them over another company, again, nothing wrong with that.
Where it gets a little twisted is if that influence starts to become a bit more manipulative
and dishonest and that's where the undue influence comes in.
And if you're making informed decisions, so if this is informed consent or if you are
just saying yes to a bunch of lies.
So let's say they offer you your job, you love what you're hearing and you are thinking
about joining their team, is your acceptance of that job offer going to be an informed
choice with all the information you've been given?
Or is it all just a fabricated lie made just to get you through the door into their cult
business?
And the guy that I mentioned earlier on, Dr. Stephen Hasson, he defines undue influences
any act of persuasion that overcomes the free will and judgment of another person.
And that can be done through deception, flattery, trickery, coercion, hypnosis and all sorts
of other techniques.
So during the early stages, be on your toes and no matter how promising something sounds,
do your own research about that company.
So like in job listings, a lot of them are just hiring scams where they're trying to
get some money from people.
But some of them that I've come across seem quite a bit more on the culty side of things.
And there's just so many of, it's crazy.
There's so many of them.
I want to research them all, but I only have so many hours to dedicate to scam hunting.
But anyway, so some of those things to look out for just from what I've gathered with
going through them is it won't often list a company name.
Sometimes it might give you a company name and then it turns out to be something else
when you're emailing or you're in the interview.
But it'll usually give a person's name.
And sometimes it's a very weird, just like one of them I came across was Mr. H. So give
Mr. H a call.
I'm like, who is this guy?
And that one didn't really have a company on it anyway.
So you're working with limited information.
Sometimes these posts will just, it won't have anybody to contact.
It'll give you a URL to a YouTube video or it'll give you like an 800 number to call
and you listen to this super long voicemail and then it gives you a link at the end.
A lot of them are super, super long, filled with words.
It's like you're reading an entire chapter of a book.
But with all those words on there, you don't quite understand what the job is.
So it's all a bunch of like buzzwords and fun promises and excited things.
And you're like, well, what are we actually doing here?
And then on the flip side, you've got a short post with like not many details at all.
And I mentioned buzzwords.
So you'll see a lot of best opportunity, amazing opportunity, your dream job, financial success
and freedom, control your destiny with like minded people.
This isn't for everybody.
It's a no brainer stuff like that.
I keep thinking of like the overlap with the corporate world because there are elements
of cult in the business.
You see these like, you know, we're looking for a highly motivated, can work in a fast
pace, motivated, ambitious, you know, of course, everybody's going to say they're all those
things.
Exactly.
It's kind of like stroking your ego a little bit.
Yeah, a couple more.
It's like they don't, they'll list the company name, but there's no actual website and you
can't really find anything about them online.
This one's my favorite because it said, it'll say it's not a scam or a pyramid scheme or
an MLM.
And that makes me think about, well, if you have to tell me to trust you or you have to
tell me you're honest, you probably aren't or you wouldn't have to say it.
And so they're out there saying, this isn't an MLM.
And then I dig into it.
I'm like, no dude, this is totally an MLM.
The ones on Craigslist are so ridiculous.
They'll be filled with like dollar signs in the title of it.
And then it'll tell you, a lot of them will have promises of high earnings.
So it'll be like, make $10,000 a week or six figures and millions in your first year.
Like no experience.
There's going to be a lot of bizarre formatting and spelling sometimes.
It'll be like random all caps or capitalized words, odd punctuation, weird quotations and
stuff.
And this last one's more so for potential labor trafficking or sex trafficking.
If it mentions anything about a physical attribute of their ideal candidate, just don't even,
just close it out.
So if they're looking for someone attractive, beautiful, whatever, that to me sends like
the trafficking vibes.
And so some of these posts that you're looking at, like Craigslist is a whole different realm
like if you're on Indeed or something else, it might be, there might not be as many.
But if you're looking through something and the post checks one or two of those boxes,
it might be fine.
The recruiter might just not be that great at their job.
But if you're ticking a lot of those boxes or you just feel like it's too good to be
true, then best not to even to go down that whole rabbit hole with that company if you
want to call it that.
But if something does seem legit and promising, regardless of where you're finding the job
post, I just tell people, research that company before the interview.
You can back out of the interview if you find something and you don't want to, yeah, so
just it's better if you don't even get through the door.
If that business ends up being like a scam or a cult.
But if you're finding things are checking out and this company's got good reviews, good
glass door.
It just seems like a good, great place to work and it's not got all those shady vibes
that I just listed.
Then yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
So let's say the job posting seems normal and you go to the interview.
What are some of the things to look out for during the job interview?
Yeah.
So sometimes it might not be that sketchy.
It might just be a regular role job listing it and it looks great.
You call or apply whatever you set up the interview and you're in.
Some of the things that you can look out for is, oh, you think you're having a one-on-one
interview, but then you get in there and there's 10 other people there who are interviewing
for the job.
So a lot of these scammy or culty companies are going to play the numbers game.
They're trying to filter out the non-believer.
So the idea is that even if three out of the 10 people stay, that's three extra people.
And something I don't quite know a lot about, but I have heard a little bit.
There's those large group awareness trainings or ELGAT.
And some of those are recruiting tools for companies.
And that's all just a bunch of toxic positivity being shoved down your throat.
And it's like several hours long.
So you're just kind of overwhelmed and not in your right mind after those and they just
infiltrate your brain.
And the next thing you know, you're spending $10,000 for whatever you don't even know.
So yeah, the whole numbers game, whether it's a master class mastermind thing that you signed
up for or an interview at a company and there's 10 other people there.
Yeah.
Just the word mastermind is like, I just, I cringe when I hear that.
Like we're having a mastermind.
Like, wow, you think really highly of yourself.
Yeah.
That was something when I mentioned that body language training program I did.
That was something I didn't really, you know, I was like, oh mastermind, that sounds cool.
But everything I've learned since all of, you know, digging into scams and cults and
whatnot.
That's one of those words that I'm just like, nope, turn the other way.
Yeah.
Another thing would be the company name or the position that you applied for ending up
being completely different.
And I've seen it where this company will say what it is on Craigslist and then I know what
that company is, like what it actually is when you get there.
What on Craigslist it says something else.
And then they'll be like, well, this is a customer service or marketing representative
job and you get there and it's, you're selling knives door to door.
Not what you signed up for.
The other thing is they're going to be emphasizing wealth and financial freedom a whole bunch.
A lot of the time when you're interviewing for a job and somebody's trying to hire you,
they're not going to be throwing like big dollar amounts your way, just willy-nilly.
These culty type businesses are going to be promising you the world.
That's just a big red flag for me.
If they're, they've got all the answers and you're going to be rich.
That's just probably not going to happen.
They're going to love on the shit out of you, showering you with a tension and compliments
and excitement and positivity and making you feel like you already fit in and you just
got there.
And then they're going to focus on how great the company is and they actually like, they're
going to be hyped up about you, but they're not going to be asking you much about your
experience or who you are.
They might get a little too personal with you to figure out what's going to make you
tick, but they don't care if you worked at Starbucks for five years or anything about
your actual workplace experience.
They just want to figure you out and figure out what's going to drive you.
And they'll be very quick to hire you.
So you might not have any experience, nothing, you know, nothing lines up with what you've
done to what this position entails, but they want to hire you and they don't want to know
about your skills and experience.
They just, they want you through the door, no matter what.
As long as you are buying what they're selling, then you're a great candidate.
Right.
None of that matters.
It's like who you actually are and what you want to do.
It doesn't matter if you're willing to buy into whatever they're selling, then they want
you.
Yeah.
I had one job and this wasn't like a cult or anything.
It was just kind of a toxic boss situation.
And I told the guy when I first started, this is not my end goal.
I usually wouldn't say that to a job before any of this.
I was like, this is not my end goal.
I can see myself, you know, doing what I can and whatnot for two years or so, but this
is just not where I want to be.
And he would just keep pushing me and pushing me towards, it was a sales.
I, I needed to stop falling into sales jobs.
But yeah, it was like, he was just not listening to anything, what I wanted or anything like
that.
It was all what, what he wanted and what I could do for him.
Which, you know, a business might be that way to an extent, but a good business will
at least respect boundaries as much as possible.
But yeah, it's brought me the wrong way.
Do you think labor trafficking is mostly in the sales industry?
Like is it usually like a sales type job where you're selling something?
I wouldn't say labor trafficking.
That might be, and I don't want to put a blanket statement on it, but I feel like sales in
general is a bit culty.
Like it's just a big world of toxic positivity a lot of the times.
And yeah, you do kind of have to be that way with yourself to get through the rejection.
But to a point, you got to be realistic and, you know, not lose your morals and ethics
and be able to stand up for yourself.
But I think there's probably more sales type business cults than anything else.
Like if you look at M.L.
It's all selling products and selling people to be on your down line and it just keeps
going down.
So I'd say sales is probably one of the more culty industries for sure.
As far as labor trafficking, it's really everywhere.
Unfortunately, it's, you know, carnivals, sales crews, that's one of them.
But yeah, restaurants happens in restaurants and people who make clothing across seas and
like fishing ships.
And yeah, it's just coffee fields, a lot in agriculture.
So it's quite a bit different than cults, but also the same.
Yeah.
A lot of that undue influence that I mentioned.
You are groomed in a way in those early stages of being labor trafficked.
You're not going to be, you know, jumping on a ship to be there out at sea for 10 years
and tortured and having no break and little to eat and little to drink.
Like they get to that point to where, you know, they're getting that person on the boat
and they feel like it's, you know, they're going to be safe and okay and making money.
But then they haven't been home for 10 years.
They're out at sea.
It's crazy.
Same with sex trafficking.
A lot of the boyfriends scheme, the guy will find a young woman who's in a vulnerable state
or, you know, maybe homeless or maybe, you know, comes from a decent home, but has always
gathered her sense of self worth from a man or, you know, this is all just generalized.
So yeah, then provides her with that love and attention.
And then, you know, next thing she knows, she's having sex with strangers because they
need to make ends meet or so he says.
So yeah, it's all the same.
It's all like that love bombing, grooming, undo influence, coercive control is disgusting.
But I think, yeah, we can talk about maybe some ways to protect yourself from all of
that.
And, you know, if you do get into that interview, what some of the next steps could be, because,
you know, if you're asking questions and that recruiter or whoever, whoever's in that room
is not answering them or giving you just non answers or just ignoring you or just going
back to how awesome they are to work for, then that's something where, you know, it's
probably best just to not take that job offer when it comes.
But if you're still on the fence like, okay, this seems okay, seems legit, don't accept
the job offer right away.
I think it would be best for people to come out of that interview and do a little extra
research and ask questions.
I didn't realize this when I was younger, but interviews go both ways.
I loved sitting in an interview where they just talked and I didn't have to talk because
I was so nervous.
But it's actually not a great thing if that person is just telling you everything about
the company and not wanting to know anything about you or allowing you to ask actual, you
know, good questions.
So make that interview, you know, go both ways.
It's, you know, they're asking you what they have to ask you and then you have a set of
questions that you go in with and if anything, you know, they say something and you want
a little bit more, you know, they want them to elaborate, then speak up.
And most of the time they'll ask you if you have questions at the end.
So definitely take that opportunity.
And even if they don't ask, if you have any, just, you know, ask your questions anyway.
Like an actual legit company will stand up to scrutiny and they will welcome any questions
and illegitimate one will be bothered and annoyed by any questioning unless it's something
simple and innocent.
You know, like what day do we get paid?
Oh, it's Fridays.
If anything like who's who's the owner and do they have a criminal background or anything
like that?
Like, um, next question.
Right.
Yeah, they're going to skate around.
And I would say even if it's not a cult, a red flag that a place is just a toxic workplace
would be if you go to the interview and they just sell themselves, they just talk about
their place of work the whole time and they don't really ask you anything.
Yeah, exactly.
I've, yeah, like I said, I, I didn't think anything of that.
And I've been in a couple of interviews like that and one of them I ended up taking the
job and, you know, come time to quit.
It was just a freaking nightmare.
Like these people were not who I thought they were.
So yeah, if they don't want to know you and your, your experience and your strengths and
weaknesses and all the other questions that people ask about your experience and yeah,
I don't think that's a good sign.
And I don't want people to be super suspicious and paranoid of every company out there.
That's not my intention.
This is more so that people can start to, you know, think a little bit more about the
process of getting a job and taking a job because there are real, there are good companies
out there that treat their people great.
And it's not like everybody out there's scheming and scamming and trying to develop a cult business.
So I don't want people to walk away from this and be like, Oh my God, everybody's trying
to recruit me for a cult.
Yeah.
But this is a toxic workplace and we're very cynical.
No, I'm kidding.
It's easy to be cynical when you, when you dive in.
It is.
And I know that when I see somebody who's, you know, like a self-help coach or any sort
of coach, the word coach just grinds my gears these days.
And I know not all coaches are scheming and scamming, but it's like there's so many out
there that I know, oh, like, yeah, it's just, it's hard not to be cynical and paranoid of
every, yeah.
Yeah.
And the sad thing is if you've never had a really good coach in your life, like if you've
never been exposed to somebody that is truly like a humanitarian coach that just really
has compassion for people and they want to help people.
If you've never experienced someone like that and you meet somebody who is faking to
be a coach, I could see where someone could get trapped in that sort of dynamic because
they're like, wow, this is wonderful.
I've, I've always wanted to have somebody to coach me.
You know, it's kind of like that vulnerability of, of the love bombing with, you know, a
romantic partner of like, oh, I've always wanted somebody to treat me like, you know,
this princess or whatever.
Yeah.
Like the whole coaching industry, and I'm not saying it's all bad, but, you know, they're
hitting on people's very personal experiences and their deepest, darkest feelings.
Sometimes it's easy for that to get taken advantage of.
So like the whole industry, you know, as a whole is you're getting deep with this person
who's supposed to be helping you and they can either take that to actually help you
or take that to manipulate you.
And it's, yeah, like I said, I've seen so much of the manipulation side.
It's hard for me to imagine the help side, but I know it exists.
I know it does.
I know it does too.
Actually, on this podcast, we talked to Zanika Chapman.
She was such a wonderful, positive person.
After the recording, I talked to her for like an hour or so.
And she was just asking me about like my goals and the podcast just to ask me because she
was genuinely interested.
Like she wasn't, you know, gaining anything from it.
She was a wonderful person.
And also Alicia from Goldfinch Wellness, she does career coaching.
You know, just there's a lot of good probably most coaches out there are probably great
coaches, but it's that percentage that isn't that you want to watch out for.
Yeah, exactly.
But you can take a lot of this information and that's where it's, well, is this person
taking a lot of these boxes of potential scam or cult?
Or you know, if they're not, then yeah, they're probably one of the good guys or gals.
So yeah, don't be suspicious of everybody, but just do your research and ask the questions
for accepting a job or sending any personal information like a social security date of
birth and all that.
And the big thing I, I don't know, it's kind of hard to say this is like being black or
white, but you know, if somebody's asking for some sort of payment upfront, that's probably
not an actual, like most companies are going to be paying you.
You don't have to pay to get paid.
That just doesn't make sense.
So if they're requesting monetary buy-in, like you have to pay to play, it's probably
a hiring scam or some sort of high control workplace, whether it's, you know, not quite
cult level or full blown cult level.
Yeah, if they're asking for money upfront, then that'd be like, red flag.
Yeah, that's kind of going back to what we're talking about these online social media, like
money grabs of like, you know, for $100, you can get my bulletproof course.
It's kind of like that in a way of like, if you pay so much money, we're sending you all
the training tools you'll need to make your job successful.
Like, yeah, that's huge red flag.
Right.
And that depends on like the level of promise.
I feel like if it's a person who isn't claiming to have all the answers and this is the only
thing that's going to work for you, you know, if they're not saying that, it might just be
a course they put together and it's all innocent.
But if they're like, this is the only real estate course that is going to make you successful
and I have all the answers.
And yeah, that's that's a bit more probably, you know, avoid some of those Craigslist scams
that I was following asking for payment.
There's one out there that I think this one's more on the Colty side of things because I
ended up, this was all under alias.
These people don't know who I actually am.
But there's like a level of financial quote unquote gifts where you have to pledge anywhere
from 1500 to $6,000 to your recruiter.
So that's whoever you responded to their ad or however you came across them.
And then you have to get two people on before you can start making it.
It's a it's a full blown pyramid scheme.
It's not like the we'll say it's not I don't feel like MLM should be legal, but technically
they are.
But this was full blown like illegal pyramid scheme, but they would get around it because
you were giving financial gifts to people.
So they found a way around it.
Yeah, I sat on their national Q&A call under my alias and it was like just the way they
were talking and the language that they were using like it was so positive and welcoming
and they were laying down the rules and one of them you can't ask negative questions or
I didn't word it that way, but it was basically don't be in there as a skeptic and I was sitting
there on mute like and then this other guy wanted $250 through Venmo to train me on his
like internet sales or some crap.
It's like MLMs will make you buy a certain amount of product to be able to play and traffickers
will say that they'll provide financial assistance up front, whether that be like a bus ticket
or housing.
And then they're bonding you to them through debts that you'll never be able to pay off
because you're not making money there.
And so you will forever owe that debt until you hopefully escape.
Yes, never accept free money unless you want to be indebted to someone.
That's the other one.
Pay them and don't accept any financial thing up front because yeah, you don't know what
they're going to ask for later on.
So and yeah, no matter how desperate you are to find a job, say you've been jobless for
a month and you get this offer and it's it's sounding real culty and scammy.
No matter how desperate you are to find a job, just don't rely solely on that interviewer's
information.
You know, do your research and most companies, good companies will respect your decision
to give it a day or two before you say yes.
And if they don't, then you probably saved yourself a little, a lot of pain.
Yeah, that's another red flag of the interview process, just the toxic workplace, not necessarily
a call of like getting the job on the spot, which I, you know, I'm not saying it's a
hard rule always.
I'm sure there's times where like, oh, we got to, you know, make an offer.
But to me, it just looks like they don't have a process to discuss, you know, should
we get other people's perspective on this?
And they're desperate, right?
It's like, we got to fill this position.
We got to make a, I've gotten job offers on the spot and they weren't called, but they
were toxic workplaces because I took the offer and I can tell you now.
Yeah, not all of them are.
You're right.
When I first moved back to Nebraska, I got a job at a gardening company because I didn't
want to work with people anymore.
I figured plants would be fun, a little plant therapy.
And it was, you know, the start of their season, they were really looking for people.
And I liked the guy and he liked me and it seemed like a great company.
And he said, I think the difference is, is the pressure.
There was no pressure for me to have to say yes right now.
It was like, well, I mean, if you, he knew I didn't have a job at the time.
He's like, well, if you need a job and you want to start tomorrow, then the offer's on
the table.
And I was like, sure.
So yeah, it's not always like if they're offering you a job right away, that doesn't mean it's
run away.
It's how much pressure are they putting on you to, you have to say yes right now.
And if you don't, like there's that fear of missing out.
And yeah, that's the big different difference and all that.
Right.
Cause they might like you and they just know.
And they're like, yeah, take all the time you need to think.
We're not in a hurry.
You know, like if we could know by Monday or whatever, you know, like give you the weekend
to think about it by all means, if you have any questions, you know, we can follow up
about it, like make you feel comfortable in your decision.
Yeah.
So we talked about the job listings and then, you know, the interviews.
So people are probably going to wonder, well, what if I'm working at a place that sounds,
you know, I did the interview and it sounded like that and I'm here and or maybe nothing
is sounding familiar, but this next bit is, well, you're at, you're in this job and like,
what are the signs in this job of this might be a cult.
So I think it'd be good to talk about a little bit of, you know, what it looks like to be
in a cult.
So the guy that I have mentioned, Dr. Stephen Hassan, he developed the bite model, B-I-T-E
bite model and what it stands for is B for behavior, I for information, T for thoughts
and E for emotions.
And you just add the word control after each each.
So behavior control.
This is like the meat and potatoes of what a cult looks like inside.
And really it comes down to, you know, that undue influence, the coercion and the control.
And they're controlling people's behavior is like regulating and dominating their members'
actions and behaviors through strict rules, punishments, limiting people's autonomy.
So the sleep deprivation bit would be frequent and required over time.
So you're constantly getting out late and having to start early.
You aren't sleeping a lot.
So you're not quite in your, you're in an altered state of mind.
Basically, you're not quite in, you know, the best, the best way to be able to think
clearly and, you know, process things properly.
And then another thing would be like the financial exploitation.
So you're getting a paycheck, but they're shorting you on hours or you're working overtime,
but they're not paying you overtime or you're just not getting paycheck at all.
And they're expecting you to volunteer all these hours.
And so there's a lot of financial exploitation.
They don't really encourage vacation and leisure time.
You're just kind of expected to work, work, work.
There's a lot of group think and hive mind.
So everybody's expected to have the same, the same ways that they think and behave.
It's just like everybody is the same person, basically.
Yeah.
Hives mind like worker bees, basically.
You're all uniform.
Exactly.
Yeah.
There'll be a lot of rigid rules and regulations and every business is going to have rules,
of course, but these will be rigid.
Like you cannot go outside the lines of whatever this rule is.
And if you do, there's going to be some, some form of disobedience.
So there's some punishment for, like I said earlier, we would leave if you left your
ducat with your receipts and whatnot anywhere and somebody found it, then the punishment
was getting slapped on the head with your ducat really hard by somebody else.
And if you kept doing it, then everybody would take their ducats and wap you in the
head.
It's supposed to be like, well, you won't forget it next time sort of thing.
They discourage family time.
They don't really want you hanging out with people who don't think and behave like they
do.
And especially if your friends and family question the business or the product or whatever, they're
going to tell you that they're just, you know, they're not the right people to hang out with.
They don't have your best interests.
So they're going to try isolating you from your family and saying that they're negative
and they're naysayers and they don't have what it takes.
They'll never understand it stuff like that.
So some of the information control and this kind of this is a lot in that those early
stages, the job listings and the interviews.
And that's just keeping things to what they want you to see and know.
Like you can't look at certain websites and you'll have accountability buddies to make
sure that you're not.
So they'll go through your internet search history and stuff like that.
Make sure you're not looking at the wrong stuff.
But there'll be like an outsider versus insider mindset.
So people who work outside or live outside of the company, they're completely just on
a different lower level than anybody at this company.
It's very us versus them.
They'll also encourage spying on colleagues so that if anybody catches wind of this person
saying something against the company, then you report to so and so, hey, this person's
you know, and then there's some sort of reprimand meant for that person quote unquote shit talking.
They might change their company name a lot.
So you might start at the company and then you know, two years later, it's something else
and that's to control what you're able to search for on the internet.
So for example, when I started the magazine crew, we were we were called one thing and
then like a year or so later, we had new receipts with a whole different name on because people
were starting to write on ripoffreport.com that you know, they weren't getting magazines
or this person came to their door and was suspicious.
So they'll change names just to keep it so you can't find a lot about them.
They'll lie a lot to employees.
They might withhold or distort information.
There's going to be an authoritarian leadership in the big thing.
You can't have any contact with any former employees.
And if one of your colleagues quits, it's almost like out of sight out of mind, which
is something we said a lot on the crew is basically that person doesn't exist anymore.
Don't talk to them.
They couldn't hack it.
So, you know, they don't they can't hold any space in your mind.
They're not worthy.
But they don't want people infecting.
They don't want past people infecting their current people's minds and starting to get
them to question basically.
Well, even like if somebody leaves the workplace and if the leadership at the workplace starts
saying negative things or uses that person as an example of like, see, this is what happens
when you leave like that or when you question what we're doing, you know, they kind of like
form a narrative around that person and then kind of let everybody else know that if you
question or if you start opening your mouth and telling other people what's going on,
then you know, you're going to be basically hosted and nobody wants to feel like they
no longer are welcome somewhere.
Yeah, exactly.
A little bit on the T the thought the thought control.
So they'll shape belief and attitudes.
They'll suppress your critical thinking.
They don't want you questioning and thinking for yourself.
And that's where a lot of that conformity comes in.
So there's a lot of black and white thinking and cults.
There's no questioning of leadership.
And a lot of the times if you have some that there is something wrong, you can't talk to
somebody who's quote unquote like beneath you, you have to go up because they would
perceive that you're going down, you're going to infect the newbies mind.
So you have to go up.
And the reason is because the people who are up on the line, they're so in it that they
know how to stop you from questioning.
They know how to get you back in basically.
So they might create like a new identity basically.
So that's like with the magazine crew I was talking about.
You basically leave everything that you knew before the road behind and who you were then
won't help you now and people you knew then won't help you now.
So everything's just, you know, doesn't exist.
There's a lot of thought stopping or thought terminating cliches.
So if you do question, you might be met with something like that out of sight out of mind
that I'd said.
And big thing on the crew was singing and chanting and a lot of cults will do this.
And this puts you in an altered state of mind.
So we had crew songs that if we, if it seemed like we had low morale or even just, you know,
this was kind of regular to start our day with in the crew car was we were singing songs
and chanting call and response stuff.
And it was made to get a psyched and pumped up to knock doors and make money and write
quota.
And then the last one is that E the emotional controls.
That's probably like, I don't know, I can't say any of them are the hardest to overcome,
but I do feel like the emotional one was the hardest one for me.
And that's where they're narrowing the range of emotions.
And that goes into that whole toxic positivity.
So if you're feeling upset or whatever, well, just sing a crew song, you know, like stop
thinking about what's upsetting you because it might make you want to leave.
And the problems are never management's fault.
So it's always you.
You're the problem.
If you're not selling enough, it's not because of the system.
The system works.
You're just not working it, that sort of thing.
There's going to be extreme emotional highs and lows.
It's like that cycle of abuse.
You're up and then you're down and then you're up and you're down.
Life will feel impossible outside of the company.
You know, you've left everything you knew behind and, you know, the company is your
life and it doesn't.
And they've told you that, you know, you're not going to amount to anything.
There's, you're going to be on the streets and stuff and literally on the magazine crew.
You could be on the streets if they left you.
But yeah, there is no life outside of this group.
There's a lot of gaslight lighting being shunned and that's that whole, like, and there's
a lot of, you know, there's a lot of fear around that.
You have all your friends and your new family and the potential of being shunned and never
being able to speak to them again.
It's like it's pretty, it's a pretty emotional thing.
So yeah, those are, and I just kind of threw a lot out there and again, encourage people
to go to Dr. Steven Hasson's freedom of mind website and look at the full bite model.
It is a lot, but you know, the more, the more boxes you take on that, the more likely that
you are in a high control or cultic group.
You know, you might have some here and there and it's nothing to, nothing to worry about,
but the more you have, then I would start questioning a little bit more what you're
involved in.
Yeah.
And hopefully to realize it before you're so wrapped up in a cult business that you're
emotionally involved.
Like you say, you're, you're the hardest thing was to overcome the emotional attachment,
which understandably so, right?
I mean, when you are emotionally attached to something, it's almost like, even though
your brain understands that you're in something that's not good for you or your heart says
something different, you know, you're attached to something.
So what's your advice for people to leave or to recover from this sort of environment?
Sure.
This is something where you can tell whether or not you are in a cult or not or being trafficked
or not is leaving like resigning seems impossible.
You know, it can be tough and upsetting to leave any job, whether it's when you love
or hate, but the thing to consider is what are the ramifications if I leave?
What are the exit costs?
So it feels impossible and it feels unsafe and there might actually be safe like threats
to your safety upon exiting.
So there is no guidebook for leaving and people will come to this point in their own time.
And if anybody out there is feeling like they're not in a cult, but they know somebody like
a friend or family who this is sounding like the group that that person is involved with,
there are ways to help family members and friends through this as well.
But yeah, this is starting to sound like you might be in a cult or just a high control
workplace and you know, toxic workplace in general, just go as quickly and quietly as
possible, like be safe, keep your safety in mind.
This isn't black or white either is you might think a colleague is trustworthy, but unless
you have solid evidence that they're on the same team or same page, like you guys started
questioning and validating things together and they're planning on leaving as well.
I didn't say a word to anybody like I had a pretty good, she was my new girl, but we
were we were pretty tight actually, we broke a lot of the rules and like personal sharing,
but I didn't even tell her because I was just so scared of my thoughts of leaving being
revealed to the manager.
So I would say it's best just to go quietly and then if that person or people that you
might feel like you can trust get out, then yeah, heal together.
And then after getting out, I'd say go it's you know, like the narcissistic or an abusive
relationship going no contact is probably the best route.
You have to protect your well-being and recovery process and that's that's the number one thing
and be careful of who you open up to as well.
So let's say you get out and you've got a couple people from the company or group coming
to say, Hey man, I'm starting to question things too.
Like your first inclination is to want to help, but I would you know, dig a little deeper
on like, well, what are you thinking before you open up and share like too much with this
person who might not even, you know, they're just trying to gather intel for the higher
up.
So I don't just do it, you know, as safely and quietly as quickly as possible because
there's a documentary out there called the vow about the nexium cult, which was kind
of sex cult slash.
There was a lot of commercial elements to it.
Like the people in that documentary had others from that group coming to them just to gather
intel.
So just be very careful with who you trust afterwards.
Don't be super paranoid, but just protect yourself the best you can.
Yeah.
And that's got to be a very vulnerable time when you leave a place like that, you know,
that process over time has got to be a journey in itself to find yourself again and build
your confidence and realize, you know, your worth and everything that the cult basically
stripped away from you.
Yeah.
There's another person I haven't mentioned her yet, um, Yanya Lalich, and she has a book
called Take Back Your Life and it's all about that recovery process.
And she said on average, it usually takes people about five years of, you know, full
and you're not going to be spending every single day of that five years immersed in
like cult recovery stuff.
I don't recommend that it can be very exhausting to do.
I go in and out of things all the time, but, but yeah, it does take time and you can't
put a deadline on it.
It's so hard because no matter how much time you were in that cult, whether it was, you
know, I was there a few months short of three years, but there were people in there for
five, 10 plus and yeah, like you're in there for decades.
It's going to be a lot different than if you were in there for only, you know, three years
or so, but it's still so hard because your whole life, your, your work life and your
personal life are so enmeshed.
Like the company provided everything, the social life activities, amenities, a paycheck,
your sense of purpose, you know, on top of that, everything you knew before you abandoned
because, you know, they were naysayers, they questioned it.
So your friends and family, they might welcome you back with open arms and I hope that's
the case.
But, you know, you just don't know who you are because everything you are in that moment
is what you became for the cult.
And I still have moments.
I'm like, well, is this me?
Like, is this actually me?
Is this what I want?
Is this how I, it's, it's so, I don't know.
I've only been like immersed in this stuff for, I think about three years.
So I guess I got two more to go, but, but yeah, it's constantly, constantly working at it.
And just realizing, you know, why was I susceptible in the first place and, you know, how do I
not become susceptible again?
You know, and I mean, life's a challenge.
I think nobody's immune to just getting caught up in something because they were emotionally
involved, whether it's a cult or a toxic workplace, a bad relationship, you know, we're humans.
Give yourself the grace and allow yourself the process to get through something like
that.
You know, it's, it's heavy stuff for sure, and, and I think that whether listeners are
in a cult, which, you know, hopefully if they're in a cult, they're getting out of a cult or
in a toxic workplace and hearing elements of like, of a cult that are part of their daily
experience that they can identify it and just, and, and like you say, just quickly and quietly
remove yourself.
That's really, you know, the best advice.
And then once you're gone, fully removed, then you can really start to look into healing
and processing.
Yeah.
I like, I wish that I, I talked to more people early on.
It's interesting because I had heard the podcast that I mentioned and I was like, oh, wow,
that sounds like the magazine crew.
But that was in 2019.
And I don't feel like I started thinking more about it until 2020 because my daughter was
a few months old and I started reaching back out to people that I was on the crew with
because I had stuffed this whole experience so far down that I couldn't, I couldn't remember
a lot.
And so I had had conversations with about 10 people that I traveled with and I'm like,
oh my God, it's insane how much stuff I forgot.
So really lean on other people, especially, you know, if you do find people that were
in that same company or in that same group or speaking out about their experience, like
really lean on those people because the worst thing in healing is feeling isolated and alone
and crazy.
Like you're the only one.
And even if it's not the same type of group, you know, I've surprisingly, like I never
thought I would have anything in common with people from religious cults, but no, it's,
a lot of it is so similar.
A lot of it's so, it's the same.
It's the same.
Yeah.
Same manipulation, patterns of behavior, coercion, need of power.
Egotistical at the top.
The other thing with, you know, leaning on others and sharing your experience with others,
the whole healing process, the psychoeducation around like, yeah, learning why you were vulnerable
to that group, what made you susceptible and all of that and just creating a coherent narrative
because I'm still working on it.
Like telling my story on that last episode, I have to put things down in like very detailed
notes because I'm still trying to figure out what the hell happened sometimes.
And I understand it a lot more than I did like two or three years ago, but it's still
like trying to piece everything together.
So creating that coherent narrative, even putting together my thoughts for this episode,
it's like, whoa, I've had new realizations.
So like journaling about your experiences and your thoughts and feelings around things
and yeah, sharing your story with others.
If you're ready, that's a great thing to like find your voice because outside of the magazine
crew and like a lot of my life beyond that and before that, I didn't really have a voice.
And so being able to, you know, speak on this and a couple other things that I've done are
just even being able to tell none of my friends knew about this.
And like, I still have a hard time, you know, sometimes telling people about this because
it's just so freaking weird, but being able to find people that listen to you and you
were able to have that voice that you never really had before.
It's just so healing.
There's this organization out there that I volunteered with a little bit in April.
We did a high control workplace educational focus.
And the whole purpose of this organization, it's called I got out.org is for cult survivors
or survivors of high control groups to tell their story.
And my friend, Jaret, she hosts this class on her own, but also through I got out.
It's free through I got out, but you can pay for more in depth classes with her.
But she is so great at guiding people through like writing prompts and just it's so healing
just to be able to write your story out and then share it with other people who understand.
And she's got a book out too that's new.
It's like a, it's a writing prompt journal for survivors of cultic abuse.
So don't have to do it in a class if you don't want to.
But the whole, the whole writing and just, you know, it's having, having your voice
heard and whatever mode works for you.
It's just like, yeah, it's the best thing I've done since I learned about all this.
Yeah.
I'll put a link to I got out.org in the podcast notes because they do have all kinds of resources
and stories.
And I think that's where I found you.
That's where I heard your story.
They have a great mission and what they're doing for people.
And you know, I think it's also about finding your confidence.
And I think my listeners can relate to that too of like getting the confidence to know
that you don't have to deal with a bad situation.
Like you're worth more than that.
You can accomplish more than that.
And finding confidence is hard.
It's definitely something that's, you know, it's challenging, especially if you're someone
that is naturally a people pleaser or, you know, avoids conflict and you don't want to
appear overly confident because you don't want to offend anybody.
Just finding that confidence to be strong and who you are and your history and being
able to let people hear your story or what happened to you and not worrying like what
they're going to think or say because you're, you're confident in who you are.
And that's not going to change any of that.
So building confidence to me is like the critical aspect of kind of picking yourself up off
the floor after a bad situation and moving forward.
So I love that.
That and like learning how, because a lot of the times the people pleasers and, you know,
the ones who don't feel as confident, they don't know how to set boundaries and maintain
them either.
And I feel like that's, that's something else you compare with gaining that confidence
is being able to set your boundaries and then being able to maintain them as well.
And not, not allowing people to step over them because that's the biggest thing is you didn't,
you either didn't have the boundary or you tried to have it and that person just stepped
right over it.
And that was that.
There was nothing, nothing said, nothing done.
And yeah, people learning how to set healthy boundaries is a big thing too.
Yeah.
That's a great point is like, okay, you can set the boundary, but then the work it takes
to maintain a boundary is a whole different story.
You know, you don't want to put up a boundary when you're a new employee.
Well, yeah, especially when you're new.
Yeah.
You don't want to ruffle feathers.
Nobody wants to be your marked as a troublemaker, someone who's hard to work with.
Yeah.
So, but that's where these manipulative people are, or in this case a cult season opportunity
is somebody who doesn't want to upset somebody else by saying no and, and saying that they,
that's not how they want to work.
Yeah.
That just made me think I was fairly new at this company that I worked with or worked
at and the boss guy said, Hey, you guys, you guys mind if I head out early and my coworker
was like, you're going to leave me here with how busy we've been and she's new and doesn't
know how to do half of this stuff.
Like, no, it's not okay.
And I remember thinking like, Oh my God, how, how dare she, but now I'm thinking like,
yes, you badass, good for you.
And he ended up staying, but I was just thinking at the time I was like, Oh my God, what the
hell just happened?
How like, how dare she, but she had it right.
Yeah.
Or even just like your plates full and your boss or who your colleagues says, Hey, can
you do this?
Just being able to say, no, I've got enough right now.
That just was like foreign to me for so long.
Like, no, I can do it.
I can do it.
And then I'm just spinning in my head going crazy and it's a learning process.
Right.
Especially it's your boss walking out the door.
I have this podcast.
I still feel like if, if my boss was walking out the door and I'm swamped, I'd be like,
okay, have a great night.
Yeah.
See you later.
Go have fun with the kids.
Yeah.
That's definitely something I know I need to work on.
There's so much information that you gave me before the show that you've talked about.
Like I said, it'll be in the podcast notes.
I'm going to put a link to your Instagram account.
So well, thanks for doing this.
Thanks for doing around too.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Next time on Toxic Workplace.
So she told me that I asked too many questions and that I have a problem with her authority
and that that needs to be corrected.
She would always say like, oh, I didn't ask for this leadership management position.
God put me here.
It was just so like fake humility.
And then she told me that I was too direct.
Yeah.
I am very direct, but I'm very kind when I am direct.
The way she made it sound was like if she would tell me to go do something, I would be like,
well, why?
Why are we doing that?
I don't agree with that.
And like that's not, I would not do that at all.
I was like very accommodating to anyone that asked me for help.
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