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My name is Carleigh and this is Toxic Workplace Antidote Edition.
In these antidote episodes, I speak with professionals and thought leaders that are paving the way for healthier work environments and personal health.
Today I'm talking with Chelsea Brooke Cole. Chelsea is a licensed psychotherapist and certified partner trauma therapist specializing in narcissistic abuse and retaliation trauma.
She's the author of If Only I'd Known, How to Outsmart Narcissists, Set Guilt-Free Boundaries, and Create Unshakeable Self-Worth.
Chelsea speaks at HR counseling conferences on narcissism in the workplace, how to communicate with difficult people, and effective therapeutic strategies for narcissistic abuse survivors.
If you've ever worked with a narcissist, you know the chaos and destruction they bring to the workplace.
In this episode, Chelsea discusses how to deal with narcissists, strategies to avoid being manipulated, invaded into narcissistic drama,
and most importantly, how to set boundaries. She shares critical information that will help you understand the dynamics of narcissism in the workplace.
All right, Chelsea, this is a big topic on this podcast, as you can imagine.
In many, if not most of the stories that are shared on this podcast, there are elements of narcissistic personalities, narcissistic abuse.
I know a lot of my listeners are dealing with narcissists in the workplace, so I'm so happy to have you talking with me today.
I want to dive right in. What are some of the things that people should be looking for to identify if they're dealing with a narcissist?
Yeah, there's definitely some things that we should be looking for.
And I'll start by just kind of giving an overview of what a narcissist is so that we're all kind of on the same page,
because that's a word that's thrown around a lot these days. It kind of become a buzzword.
So what are we really talking about? So narcissism is a personality trait that exists on a spectrum.
That means you can be a little narcissistic to highly narcissistic.
On the low end of the scale, we can think of the entitled know it all at the dinner party.
And at the high end of the scale, we have the malignant narcissist, which is basically a cousin to the psychopath.
So when we talk about someone being narcissistic, we're describing certain patterns of behavior.
It includes things like grandiosity, superficiality, superiority, entitlement, interpersonal exploitativeness, and a lack of empathy.
So narcissists tend to be quite grandiose.
They live in a distorted reality, believing that they are exceptionally unique and special.
They also tend to have quite superficial personality traits. They focus on what things look like, being charming and charismatic.
And their relationships lack depth. So they care about what they have or what you have, what you look like, how they can use you.
They don't really care about you as a person. They also are incredibly have this sense of superiority, like being better than others.
And they're quite entitled because they believe they deserve special treatment, not because they've earned anything, simply because they exist.
And you definitely see this a lot at work when you have colleagues who really have unrealistic expectations about how they're going to move up in the company or how they should be recognized so quickly.
They believe that they should be given these special accolades or attention, even if they've only been there a month, even if they haven't even worked there as long as you.
They believe that they deserve this special treatment. So you'll see that entitlement come out a lot.
And a big way that I see narcissists interacting at work or what we can see from them is interpersonal exploitativeness.
Narcissists use people as pawns to get what they want. So they take advantage of others, manipulate them, lie to them, charm them.
It all really just depends on what they need from you at the time.
I use an example that narcissists treat people like a healthy person treats products.
For example, me and my coffee maker, we have a great relationship. I get up in the morning, it makes me coffee.
It serves the function I wanted to in my life. We're good.
If, however, I got up in the morning and my coffee maker stopped working, I would be upset and I would say this isn't working anymore.
You're not serving the function I want you to in my life. And I'll probably throw it out and get a new one.
And that is how narcissists treat people. I mean, it's awful to say, but like they throw you out like they throw out the garbage.
It's like you're just you're not serving the function I want you to in my life anymore.
So a lot of times at work, narcissists are really good at creating what feels like a meaningful relationship.
But it's actually quite superficial because as soon as the narcissist no longer needs you, it's like they've discarded you and they've moved on to someone else.
Thinking of a narcissist in a leadership position, how at the beginning of the work relationship, they might build you up.
They're painting a picture of a wonderful work environment.
Maybe they really admire you for your resume or for your experiences.
And you're serving their purpose because you're going along with this picture they're painting.
And then as soon as you realize it's a facade or you start seeing issues and you question them, they no longer favor you.
And then the discard starts. What are some of the red flags that are signs of a narcissistic person?
Can you even tell upfront?
Yeah, definitely. Just like you're saying that narcissistic bosses and leaders often pull people in because they do make people believe that they're joining something really special.
And so narcissistic leaders will basically sell the company to you during the interview and kind of fluff you up and make you think you're going to be a part of this big, grand organization.
And it's going to be wonderful. And you're going to make such a difference.
But really, once you get in there, once you get in the company, that's when you start to see a different side of them come out because narcissistic bosses, especially the grandiose types.
And we can talk about what the different types look like.
But I'll talk about the grandiose ones because those are the ones we're most familiar with.
They, in particular, set the tone for a competitive on edge environment where everything really revolves around the narcissists needs because narcissistic leaders are really interested in fulfilling their own ambitions
and just using their employees to get them there.
So a lot of times in these organizations, narcissistic leaders will be pitting people against each other.
They will create alliances with some and then belittle other people because they always need someone to control and someone to feel better than.
Yes, the control is something that I hear constantly from my podcast guests where they can't even send an email without running it by the narcissistic boss first.
Or they're basically they basically have tabs on them at all times and they don't have any autonomy on making any decisions.
It's like the narcissistic boss has to call all of the shots.
Micro manage so much. I can't tell you how many of my clients.
I'm just amazed at the amount of toxicity going on in these workplaces because they micromanage their employees to an extent that their employees can't even do their job.
Like without the narcissistic boss looking over their shoulder, it eventually leads to the employees kind of giving up because the narcissistic boss also takes credit for everything that the team does.
Even if you really did all of the work and so you end up feeling quite discouraged and deflated and disengaged because the narcissistic boss takes credit for it anyway.
Right, you're just giving, giving, giving and they're taking, taking, taking with little to no recognition.
And it keeps going until you finally say, I'm done. I'm out of here.
It's kind of like a abusive relationship in the sense of you are with somebody who treats you like garbage.
And when you finally had enough and you say you're leaving, they come back and they're like, oh, you're so wonderful.
I'm going to change. And in the workplace setting where you say you're going to leave or they know you want to leave, they can tell.
And then they give you a new title or they give you a raise or they throw something at you to try to rope you back in and make you stay.
Yeah, they definitely can rope you in.
It kind of follows that same idealized devalue discard Hoover that we're familiar with hearing about in romantic relationships.
That definitely can happen in work relationships, too. Or they have beat you down so much that you don't even feel like you can go anywhere else.
Or you're scared of the retribution if you do try to go somewhere else.
And a lot of people who really do care about the company and they're they're offering genuine feedback or how things could be improved.
A narcissistic boss doesn't want to hear that they actually will will view that as a personal attack.
And so anyone who is really trying to address the problems and make the place better will be labeled the problem.
That's such a great point, because most of us, a lot of us, we go to work.
We want to be part of a team. We want to solve problems. We want to get better.
We want to grow. And we're looking for solutions. And when you're in a toxic workplace with a narcissistic leader and there's these issues coming up and you can't quite put your finger on it, you're going to look for solutions.
And the narcissist and narcissistic leader will gaslight you will say there isn't a problem.
They might make you think that you're the problem.
It's very deceiving. And that's when it becomes sort of exhausting to try to solve a puzzle that can't be solved.
Yes. And narcissistic leaders moods are quite unpredictable as well.
And that's why when people go in to work, they will even feel like they have to start walking on eggshells.
And that's because narcissistic leaders, their emotions are based on the level of supply they're getting.
So when supply is high, meaning they're feeling admired and validated, it doesn't really matter what's going on with you or the team.
If they are getting positive feedback from upper management or they just got a promotion or award, then they can be charming and nice and friendly.
And then you're like, OK, today's going to be a good day. Bosses in a good mood.
But if their supply is low, things aren't going well.
Someone else got a promotion, they feel like they're being overlooked and not being given that extra special treatment they think they deserve.
Then that's when you see that different side of a grandiose narcissist come out where they're yelling at people, demeaning them or seeming sad and pitiful to get people's sympathy and attention.
And you find yourself trying to make them feel better instead of being able to do your job.
It's just like a narcissistic family system.
It's the narcissist is in the middle and everyone is around the narcissist and everyone has a role and everyone should be doing what the narcissist wants.
And so when you're in a narcissistic company, you start to feel like there are certain things you should or shouldn't be doing or that you can or can't do based on the narcissist moods, based on what they want from you that day.
You're not really able to flourish into your full potential or even focus on your job responsibilities.
You find yourself having to kind of pander to what that narcissistic boss wants.
Yeah. And I think the thing with narcissists is that they want to be seen as important.
They want to move up the ladder despite maybe the lack of skills or the true ability to move up.
But they're so likable on the surface.
They know what to do, what to say, what people want to hear.
And so anybody that works closely with them sees how toxic they are.
But maybe the customers love these people.
The higher up management that doesn't have to work closely with them, they see a completely different person than what the person working closely to them sees.
A hundred percent. Yeah, narcissistic leaders are so good at saving face to upper management, convincing them that their department is the best,
that their people are happy and that their leadership is responsible for all of the team's successes.
So any success that comes from their team is because of their amazing leadership.
And upper management is usually kind of separated from what's going on at that team.
So the narcissistic boss is the go-to person and you do not want a narcissist to be in that go-to position because then they get to control the narrative.
Yes. And they create a negative morale along the way amongst the employees.
And I think in the workplace setting or in a corporate setting, we have to check so many boxes.
We have to comply with the standards of the workplace.
And I think that's easy for a narcissist to sort of manipulate and create this facade around those check boxes to the people at the top that are sort of overseeing that these check boxes are checked.
And so these narcissistic people quickly move their way to the top.
And by the time they get to the top, it's too late.
Yeah, that is why they end up so high up.
In fact, I've read some statistics that say up to 30 percent of CEOs are narcissists or highly narcissistic.
So it really depends on who you're in the room with.
Like you could be in a room where one in three people are narcissists.
Yeah. And if you think about the billions of people on Earth, 30 percent of that, that's a lot of narcissists out there.
And they come in all shapes and sizes.
There's really a spectrum of narcissists.
On one side, you have the grandiose, which we're talking a lot about right now, where they sort of wear it on their sleeves.
It's very evident that they're narcissistic.
And then on the other side, you have the more covert narcissist where you really can't see it.
It's hard to uncover until you're really sort of tied in closely to this person.
What is the common link between these types of narcissists?
Yes, they're different, but what makes them similar?
Yeah, grandiose narcissists, although they can come across quite charming and charismatic, they tend to be pretty arrogant and pretentious.
So you get the sense sometimes rather quickly that, OK, this person is really grandiose and I wouldn't be surprised if they're narcissistic.
Vulnerable narcissists, often called covert narcissists, they typically have one of two presentations.
They are either very sullen and depressed and victimized where they come across as jaded, mistreated.
They will talk about past situations in which they've been taken advantage of, betrayed, used, even abused.
You can think of the coworker who you get to know.
She seems really nice, but something about her just seems very delicate.
Like, she's always complaining about doing even less work than you do.
She's always feeling like people are out to get her and no amount of understanding or empathy ever makes her feel any better.
Like when you're talking to her, you just kind of feel like you are in a sinking pit and you can't ever help her get out of it.
As a boss, a vulnerable or covert narcissist will blame everyone for their problems.
They don't take personal responsibility or if they take any, they say that really the bigger fault is someone else's.
They will pit people against each other too, but even them with upper management, they seem very nice and charming.
Whether they seem grandiose or vulnerable, they are both very grandiose and entitled, manipulative.
They lack empathy.
Grandiose narcissists, entitlement is more obvious.
It would sound like, world, look how great I am.
You know, they're just all about their bravado and their accomplishments.
A vulnerable or covert narcissist entitlement looks different.
It sounds like, why doesn't the world see how great I am?
Why isn't anyone noticing me?
Why is always someone always out to get me?
Why do things never go my way?
So they're still very entitled, but it just comes across in a very different way.
And that's their ploy is to get you to feel bad for them.
Right.
Yep, that is actually how vulnerable narcissists get your supply by gaining your sympathy, your attention, your help, your resources.
But they don't take your help and use it to get better.
They feel entitled to your time, your resources, your finances, and they will guilt you if you try to set boundaries or walk away.
So how do we deal with these types of people at work?
I think most of us want to have a healthy working relationship or we want to at least enjoy the people that we're working closely with or be friendly with the people that we're working closely with.
So how do you work closely with a narcissist without getting caught up in their games?
Well, the good thing is, regardless of what type of narcissist you're dealing with, how you should respond to them is really the same because they have the same underlying issues.
So if you're working with or for a narcissist, then keeping records of communication really has to become part of your job description, getting everything in writing, meaning any communication you have with them, whether it is a colleague or a boss.
And I know this can be tedious and annoying, but it really benefits you because if these toxic behaviors continue to keep escalating or they end up taking credit for something you did and it really has a negative impact on you.
Your career and you will need the proof of what you've been doing.
And if you end up having to take this to HR, they want to deal with facts.
They don't want to get into a he said, she said battle.
So really, all of us should be getting everything in writing anyway.
But with a narcissist, it is a must because they can and will lie about anything, whether grandiose or vulnerable.
They want to protect their image, so they will deny things even with hard evidence.
So imagine what they'll do if it's a he said, she said situation.
So getting everything in writing is definitely one thing you want to be doing.
So as I'm listening to you talk about this, I think about the stories on this podcast and some of the situations where people have gone to HR and they're not listened to, they're not taken seriously because HR is not really on the employee side.
They're on the side of the narcissist.
Either they've been manipulated or coerced.
They're scared to go against the narcissist.
But HR is really there not to help the situations, but just for show.
So nothing ever gets done because the narcissist has full control.
It becomes you versus the sort of systemic narcissistic abuse of power.
That's I mean, that is partly true.
There's there's no getting around it.
And that's what's so damaging about toxic workplace environments.
I've had a situation where some of my clients, the narcissist was the doctor that they had to work with and they were the nurse and they tried to take it to HR and and the company has a lot invested in that doctor would take a lot of money to replace that doctor.
So for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with the habit that he was causing in the workplace, they want everything to go away and they really don't want this problem to exist.
However, what I'm really passionate about talking to organizations and HR about are the unseen effects of having this kind of toxic workplace.
The impact that it ultimately has on disengagement, on low morale, on productivity, on attrition is huge and ends up completely outweighing the benefit it would be to keep that narcissist around because you are trying to fill a leaking bucket.
Like you keep spending so much in employee engagement and getting more people to come to your company, but it's a leaking bucket because as soon as they get in, they're leaving because of the toxic box.
And so it actually costs you way more than you think.
The amount that companies lose not only on trying to fill that leaking bucket and the disengagement, but the amount of sick days, mental health days, how much of that?
I mean, that costs organizations millions a year in people who call out and call in sick because we know the effects of stress on the body and working with and for a narcissist is so stressful.
You're being pitted against people.
You don't know when you're going to be gaslighted.
You have to walk on eggshells.
Your body is under so much stress that when you are there, you're working at half capacity at best.
And a lot of times you call in, you have more sick days, you're unproductive when you're there.
And that is costing organizations millions too.
Yep. Your people are miserable.
Their personal lives are suffering.
It's just, it's all around a negative experience.
So I want to kind of think through a hypothetical instance, let's say in the instance of this doctor and the doctor's in a big enough organization where they're actually going to take action and work with this narcissist.
Do you think it's possible for that doctor to change the way they're treating employees?
Or is there any sort of like rehabilitation from HR and like workshops to get this narcissistic leader to change their ways?
Not likely.
I mean, just to put it bluntly, because narcissism, once it is set, it's quite a rigid personality style, quite antagonistic and high conflict.
They're very rigid in their thinking.
And they don't really have a lot of incentive to change.
If things are going well for them, especially if they are in a position of authority and power, then they really don't have the motivation to change.
And narcissists only do things that they believe benefits them.
And that's why the real push here has to be awareness of the real effects of workplace instability, of toxic workplaces and educating HR on what to do when people come to you, how to set policies that really discourage narcissistic behaviors so that you don't have narcissists in your company.
Not that you can ever fully get them out, but that they are not allowed to just wreak havoc on everyone else.
And so you can really empower your employees to know how to deal with these narcissists.
And we can talk some more about those strategies as well.
But yeah, let's talk about that, because as I'm sitting here thinking like, OK, so even if they fire the doctor, he's going to go to another hospital.
Now it's somebody else's problem.
So, you know, the rest of the world, we're all going to experience this.
It's not going away.
Like, there's no way to get it to just go away.
So we have to learn how to deal with it.
I would love to hear some tips from you on how to get through that.
Yeah. So if you find yourself dealing with a toxic individual, narcissistic, even a high conflict kind of person, there's something called the gray rock and yellow rock method.
Gray rock is a communication style where essentially you become as interesting to the narcissist as a literal gray rock.
Your responses are quite muted.
You don't give them a lot to work with.
You're not telling them about your highs and lows, your feelings, your hopes, your dreams, your aspirations.
You're keeping it very centered on work.
What needs to be done?
Your responses are yes, no, we'll see.
Maybe you pretty much appear very neutral and unphased.
You go in when you're going into work to do your job and setting up realistic expectations.
If you find yourself in this kind of situation is really important.
A lot of people put so much into their work that they don't they don't go in there with the right mindset of, OK, I have to deal with this person today.
So I need to stay focused on work.
They sometimes want to be able to share about personal things.
But if you find that you're sharing about personal things and it just ends up getting used against you, then I really encourage people to shift to the gray rock method.
Stop giving them so much they can work with.
And the yellow rock method is similar to the gray rock, but it has a little bit more pleasantries with it.
So you say things like, you know, thank you, please have a great day.
Hope things are going well.
You know, whether outside is nice.
How to hope you had a good weekend.
But you're still really focused on work conversations and relevant topics.
And that's going to really help you feel better so that you're not so drained at the end of the day that you have energy to invest in those healthy relationships that perhaps are outside of work or at home or with friends.
Right. You're keeping it just a simple small talk, but not engaging further than that, which narcissists are good at getting you to be engaged with them.
So you say, how is your weekend? And they might somehow drag you in.
But being aware that they're trying to do that and to just try to step away, I guess.
You know, I'm sorry, I got to work on this or got to get got to get back to work now.
Yeah. Anytime I go somewhere, I have an exit strategy.
I think that's partly me being an introvert and partly dealing with narcissistic people.
I always have an exit strategy.
And yes, that is another one of my tips is disengaging if the conversation turns gaslighty or accusatory or you start veering into personal topics or it's harmful.
So disengaging.
I really like to use nonverbal communication because it's a way to be respectful, but you're not giving them anything again that they can work with.
So things like nodding, smiling, facial expressions, eye contact.
You can do that.
And I'll give you an example of a way narcissists often try to bait you is they'll come in and it will seem like maybe they're reaching out for help or maybe they're just frustrated and they just want to vent to you about someone.
And so they'll start talking to you about, you know, Sue is just really getting on my nerves.
Like, have you ever had this issue with her?
I mean, I really just don't even know what to do.
I don't know how to respond to her.
So maybe you innocently say, yeah, I've noticed that sometimes.
You know, I would encourage you to do this.
Well, guess what?
The narcissist goes and tells Sue and really thinks that you are very annoying and she can't hardly get along with you.
And they will just twist everything you just said and good conscience against you.
And I'll tell you one thing that almost always works because nurses are quite grandiose and entitled shift the conversation back to them.
If they start trying to get into your personal life or you can tell that they're trying to trigger you or bait you into something, you can compliment them on something.
Say, like, that was a really great idea you had in the meeting or you give such an effective presentation.
Like, how do you prepare or ask for their feedback on something harmless?
Like, how do you manage your to do list?
You're so efficient at getting things done.
Or, you know, what marketing strategy do you think we should use for this next presentation or this next project?
Let them go on that.
I mean, narcissists favorite topic of conversation is themselves.
So use that.
Yeah, gosh, that's genius.
Like, it's almost like you're using their own game with them.
Yeah. And it keeps it off review.
Yes. It's hard not to let your emotions get involved.
Yeah. And that's why you really need to be investing in those healthy relationship.
That's why I know some people kind of become discouraged when they hear like, so I can't go into my work and treat everybody like my best friend.
Maybe not if you're working in a toxic workplace.
But by setting these boundaries, by disengaging from the triggering conversations, by keeping it on surface topics at work,
you actually have the mental and emotional energy and space to invest in healthy relationships,
to be able to go out with your friends after work instead of saying, I just can't.
I have to go home, you know, or whatever you want to do.
If you want to go home, that's fine.
As an introvert, that's probably what I would do.
But you can do whatever you want to do instead of feeling like I'm so exhausted from work.
I just can't even engage in the rest of my life.
Right. And that's not a life to live.
And you're talking about introverts and I know on your website, I think it says you help introverts and empaths deal with this sort of abuse.
Would you say people with those traits are usually targeted by a narcissist?
So I've actually written an article on that because it is an interesting kind of dynamic to look at because there is a connection between narcissists and empaths.
And empaths are those people who tend to have a more sensitive temperament.
They very strongly can feel the energies and the emotions of people around them.
It's been described before, like it's it's like a second skin, like you just go and impacts will just automatically put on the emotions of others like they're putting on clothes.
They just feel it. And so an empath, not that they can be drawn to a narcissist,
but a narcissist can draw an empath in because narcissists often appear, especially the vulnerable types that you want to save them.
You want to help them. You can be drawn to those kinds or grandiose narcissists can draw you in as well.
So is there a connection between empaths and narcissists?
Yes, they tend to end up finding each other in relationships, not any fault of the empaths, just because they have such a big heart.
But the part that's usually missing is boundaries. And that's why I talk about that so much.
And in my book, I talk about that. But there are lots of empaths who are also introverts.
And so in that way, narcissists can be drawn to introverts and to people who exhibit certain emotional and behavioral patterns that a lot of introverts relate to,
like being very empathetic and caring, like overthinking things.
Introverts are known for being in their head a lot. And if you overthink and you try to put others needs before your own and you struggle with boundaries,
then all of those things can kind of be an open door for narcissists.
Which in the workplace, it almost makes for like the perfect storm or just a really toxic situation.
What kind of advice would you give on setting boundaries for somebody who is naturally is an empath or an empathetic person that wants to help and wants to be of service and liked by others?
How do you coach people to kind of mitigate that in a way or how to handle themselves in that situation, maybe before it even happens?
Yeah, it's a really important topic to think about because narcissists will see your second chances as permission to keep hurting you.
And that's where I see a lot of introverts in past just highly sensitive or highly empathetic people get stuck because they don't they feel like a bad person for setting that boundary or walking away from a relationship or saying no,
because they they have an expectation that the narcissist wants to be better, but just doesn't know how to be.
A lot of empaths feel like if I could just get them to understand, if I could just give them enough or love them enough or show them that they really are good enough, then they will be better and that they will improve.
So, first of all, awareness and psycho education is so important. We have to know that narcissists think differently than us.
I talk about the inner workings of a narcissist in like the whole first part of my book, because it's so essential to understanding the foundation that a narcissist doesn't think like you.
A narcissist is looking to use people as pawns. It doesn't matter how much you explain to them.
They already know that they're hurting you. They already know that they're doing things that aren't OK. They just don't care.
And so the first thing you have to do is recognize that not everyone is like you.
Impacts and highly sensitive people do something called positive projection, where you project your positive traits and qualities onto someone else.
You assume that because you are nice and friendly and want the best for people and are really compassionate that other people do, too.
So I always encourage people to stop and look at who someone really is rather than who you think they can be, who you hope they can be, the potential you see in them.
Those are beautiful qualities that you can see people's potential and you can encourage them.
But we have to accept that who people show us they are is who they are. So that's really where we have to start.
Yeah, and that's so powerful. And it's hard to do, especially when someone's a smooth talker.
If you're new and you think this person's like so wonderful and they've befriended you quickly and it's like you might even hear people say,
watch out for them or you don't want to get caught up with that person, but yet you don't see that.
And you're going to lunch with this person and you're already spilling all your thoughts and vulnerabilities to them.
Right. Yes, you're just describing the beginning of a narcissistic relationship. It's painful to listen to.
It is.
No, don't do it.
Don't do it. I know because I've been that per, you know, like I feel like the older I get, the more I'm like, OK, I do this all the time.
I always just like give people the benefit of the doubt.
And I think so many people do.
It's just the lessons of life that we go through as you go through life and you encounter these people and you realize how you are in these situations
and then trying the next time to do it a little bit differently.
And that's why I'm passionate about helping people understand this as quickly as possible, because these lessons are really painful.
And unfortunately, that is how a lot of us end up learning.
We've had narcissistic relationships and we look back and we're like, oh, man, had I known?
I mean, that's really why I named my book. If only I'd known, because if only I'd known.
I mean, if we knew what we didn't know.
Yes. And also in your title is set guilt free boundaries, the guilt that comes with telling somebody no,
when you are a people pleaser and you want people to feel good and you want them to like you because you want to be a likable person.
So when you set a boundary, you feel guilty.
Yeah. And there's a lot that comes with that.
That's something I wanted to explore in my book, because people often don't realize why they have the boundaries that they do or why they struggle to set boundaries.
They assume that I am just a people pleaser or I've always struggled with boundaries.
This is just who I am. I'm just such a nice person and I don't know how to set boundaries.
And I get that. But there's a reason that you feel bad to set boundaries, because as children, we really don't.
You know, as babies, let's just take, for example, babies don't think, you know what, mom and dad have had such a long day.
I'm not going to cry. I know I'm hungry, but I'm just going to just let them have some sleep right now.
You're hungry. So you have to you have to communicate that.
Or, you know, a toddler doesn't think I've been so bad today that I don't deserve love.
So I don't need to have this hug from mom and dad.
I don't deserve to have this hug from mom and dad because I'm just not being good today.
You just go and you ask for a hug. Like it is a normal human experience to have needs and to express them until somewhere along the line.
You were told that that wasn't OK. And so that's what I want to help people explore.
It's like, why do you have the boundaries you have now?
But why what is it about how you were raised or your family environment or moral or cultural or religious expectations that kind of put these these standards on what a good person is?
So that's what I really want to help people explore more through the book, too, just to understand that your boundaries were developed and they were learned, meaning they can be unlearned.
You can change them. Yes.
The narcissistic abuse couldn't really unfold if boundaries were set up front, you know,
and it's so hard to set boundaries when it feels so good to feed into the grandiosity or the charm of a of a narcissist.
I think that's like the the poison of a narcissist is like how good it feels in the moment to be liked by the narcissist and to be accepted by a narcissist.
And usually it's someone of power, right? In the workplace.
They you know, it might be the top dog of a corporation who saw something in you and you're like, wow, they noticed me.
They thought I was, you know, and then you don't want to set a boundary with that person because it's the top dog.
I don't know how you stop somebody in that situation.
It's kind of like, you know, your your girlfriend is found a guy and you're like, gosh, everything they're telling me right now, this guy is bad news.
But you look at her face and you're like, there's no way anything I say right now is going to stop her from going down this path.
Yeah. And that usually has more to do with safety.
We are all biologically primed to look for safety and to look for attachments.
We're born with a biological need to attach for whatever reason.
Again, exploring your childhood and understanding why perhaps a grandiose narcissist is feels safe.
Like, for instance, if you were raised in a more dysfunctional or neglectful home, then you may mistake the narcissist love bombing for real love
because you didn't get that growing up or even even if it is a boss, you know, you may mistake that for true caring about you
because they're somewhat obsessed with you. Like, it might feel like a little too much,
but it also feels so good because you think I'm finally getting seen and noticed and appreciated.
And if that's new for you, then that's what's alluring.
And I always like to make that distinction because it's not that anything is wrong with you.
It makes total sense why we get into these relationships.
So the better you get at knowing what your personal vulnerabilities are, insecurities, how you were raised, how your childhood impacted you,
then you can catch that quicker and go, oh, I am associating that person with safety or what they're doing.
This over the top love bombing as real love or as safety.
And once you see that, then you can start to intentionally make a different choice.
Yeah, that's interesting.
You know, it's like these hardwired ways of survival that is like ingrained in us coming out.
And, you know, it's also like your self-esteem, which your book talks about creating self-worth, unshakable self-worth.
Having that much self-esteem to think like, well, of course, this person thinks I'm great because I am really great.
So, you know, like they're being so over the top, I can still set boundaries with this person if they think I'm that great because I am.
You know, I'm not saying become a narcissist yourself, but like, you know, just have faith in your abilities, knowing that I can still set boundaries.
And this person, if they're a normal, non-narcissistic person, they'll still allow you to flourish and grow within an organization, even if you set boundaries.
In fact, if they're not a narcissist and they're a true leader and they see you have the ability to set boundaries, that's going to impress them even more.
But if it's a narcissist, they're going to take it offensively.
And that right there is a sign of like, OK, I set a boundary with this person who said I was just so wonderful and they can't wait to have me on the team.
And once I set just a few small boundaries, they backed off.
But I think that takes a lot of of knowing your self-worth and sometimes people struggle with that of believing in themselves.
Yeah, that's a great early test for relationship or work is to set a simple boundary.
And we're talking about something as simple as, hey, I can't meet today.
What about tomorrow? Like these boundaries don't have to be this big, scary thing.
It doesn't have to be that you're completely letting someone down.
A boundary is simply a line that says where I end and you begin that I have thoughts and feelings and you have thoughts and feelings and that that's acceptable.
So if you want to kind of test out the waters early on, see if your colleagues or your boss respects work life boundaries,
see if what they do is you set a boundary of actually sticking to the schedule because a lot of narcissists expect you to work after hours whenever they call you.
You better be available. They don't respect anything you have going on.
So if you're like, you know, I clock in from this time to this time and if I'm expected to work extra,
then I will need to know about that ahead of time so I can make arrangements accordingly.
And if a boss flips out at you about that or says, you know, well, you're not going to get anywhere in this company, then you know who you're dealing with.
Yeah, right there. A threat of like, you know, you're not going to get anywhere because you're trying to set simple boundaries.
Or, you know, if they're asking you to drop what you're doing right now to do something for them, it's OK to be like, I'm working on this.
Can I send this to you in two hours? I should be done. And it should be like, oh, yeah, no problem.
Right. There should be respect of the fact that you have other projects and other things going on.
And if it's very unrealistic expectations, like you're expected to do everything and always prioritize what they need with no regard for anything else you're working on or any other project that you have or other bosses expectation of you in some other department, then that's a problem.
So nurses are notorious for monopolizing your time. In fact, that's the one of the ways they control you.
They create all of this chaos. You end up feeling like you're running from one problem to the next, even at work.
Like, you can never get ahead. You've never done enough.
And, yeah, the narcissist time is the only time that matters.
Like what you need or how long something is going to take. There's no respect for you as an individual employee to say, OK, well, this is my capacity.
Like I have eight hours in a day. This is what I can get done. And this is when I would be able to reasonably get that project done.
That's never going to work for a narcissistic boss. Right.
And right there is setting a boundary on time of like, you know, here is what it looks like.
Here's what I can do. Even pushing myself. This is what I can do.
I can't I can't possibly meet that. And that's OK to say those things.
If that's not the answer they're looking for, then, you know, it's better to put it out there than to just suffer through it.
I mean, it's just not worth the amount of stress that's going to build up on your shoulders over time.
And narcissists will always let you take the fall.
You know, there will never be a point. I think a lot of people start out by thinking, OK, well, I'll do it this time.
And you just keep pushing and pushing your boundaries.
And a narcissist will let you do that indefinitely.
And it's like they're not even thankful. Right.
So here you are literally killing yourself because your mental health is deteriorating and they're not like, oh, my gosh, thank you so much.
You know what? Maybe they will, because sometimes I feel like narcissists will surprise you and it's like, yeah, I thought my boss is a narcissist.
But then, like, you know, they love bond you.
The whole love bombing thing. So so you might go up a month straight of just like you're on the verge of of just completely burning out and going to the hospital from burnout.
But then your boss is like, you know what? Take the weekend off.
And it's like, yeah, because you finished the project and now they're going to say thank you.
Right. That's such a good distinction because narcissists are really good at giving certain incentives or acting like they care,
but they don't address the real issue, which is their disrespect and their contempt and how they treat you day to day.
But they will give you some time off or some extra bonuses.
One of my clients who has such a toxic workplace, her department is giving them like a day to go bowling or something like they're getting a half a day off.
And it's like company engagement. Everyone come for lunch and bowling.
It's like, that's not what we want.
It's so important to look at what they're actually giving you.
Like, are they really addressing the problem or are they putting a bandaid on it?
My client in this particular situation told them, no, she can't go because she has too much work to do.
And they're like, don't let the workload, you know, keep you from missing out on the fun.
But then if she doesn't do the work, she knows she's going to get reprimanded for that.
So it's a lose lose.
Yes, a double edged sword, because then they're like, well, you're not a team player because you didn't come to the gym.
You're not a team player because you didn't come to bowling.
It's like, yeah, but I had to get this project done.
Otherwise, I was going to be in like big trouble.
So what do you want me to go to bowling and then walk back on to work and stay up till three in the morning?
Because that's literally what you're going to have to do.
So I want to talk about because you have a beautiful website, which I will put a link in the podcast notes.
What kind of services are you offering right now?
So I offer therapy and coaching for individual people.
So if anyone's resonating with this and you have a toxic workplace or boss or colleague or just narcissistic relationship,
then please reach out for therapy or coaching.
And then I do also speak at HR business counseling conferences.
I've recently spoken to HR conference to help them understand how to deal with narcissism in the workplace and how to address these toxic workplace situations.
And recently spoken at a counseling conference as well, just helping therapists learn appropriate therapeutic interventions for survivors of narcissistic abuse,
really helping build awareness so that therapists know what they're looking for and they can identify narcissists in therapy or more than likely the survivors who are coming to deal with narcissists in their life.
I do send out a free bimonthly newsletter on understanding and healing for narcissistic abuse.
It really takes you through what is a narcissist, six different types of narcissists, narcissistic abuse.
And I give different examples and stories and things so that you can really start making sense of what you're experiencing.
And so that's really where I encourage people to start.
We have to understand what we're seeing.
Confusion is often the first emotion that people are really aware of when they're dealing with narcissistic relationships.
So learning about narcissists is essential so you don't blame yourself and you don't carry that shame because once you know what you're dealing with, then you can really start healing from it.
And I also contribute to some publications as well with writing in-depth articles on narcissism, toxic workplace relationships and all that too.
All right. There you have it. ChelseaBrookCole.com. There's a link in the podcast notes.
Chelsea, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
This is a very important topic that I know my listeners want to hear about.
Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. I'm glad to be able to talk about it from a workplace perspective.
A lot of podcasts are on the relationship side of things and this is just as destructive at work.
Next time on Toxic Workplace.
We are saying something about him that he would not want to hear.
And this is a Christian organization and we're having our board meeting with the board that we have trusted to steer and kind of guide this organization and we're laughing about this.
The thought was that this is what we're saying about our top volunteers.
What else is being said about other staff when they're not in the room?
Like what's being said about me when I'm not there?
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