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Welcome to today's Water Talk. I am Ryan Dellamater, the founder of Ocean Water. Today

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I have my friend Al with me. And Al, why don't you just tell everybody a little bit about yourself?

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Sure. Yep, thanks for having me on this. So my name's Al. I'm currently a PhD student at Yale,

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doing a joint program in anthropology and environmental studies. So just getting started in my PhD

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program during a pandemic is interesting. It is definitely a unique experience. But it's going

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really well so far, all things considered. And so yeah, in a nutshell, that's what I'm kind of

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working on now. Oh, that's wonderful. So Al and I met at the MIT Water Summit. We had a chance to

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learn from a lot of wonderful people there. And Al, why don't you tell, you mentioned that you are

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a PhD student at Yale. And can you tell everybody where that's located? And also can you tell everyone

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when you're doing research these days, what's your favorite thing to eat?

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Sure. So Yale is in New Haven, Connecticut in the northeast. So it's interesting moving there again

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in the middle of the pandemic. I haven't been able to explore as much as I wanted to. And now I'm back

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in the Carolinas visiting family. So thinking about where to eat during research, I guess,

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if I was at Yale, there are a bunch of food trucks near where I live. And it's awesome because

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there's a Thai food truck, and it's close to where I live, and it's cheap. And I'm half Thai as well.

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So getting kind of like a taste of home in the middle of New England is always really, really

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nice. So that's kind of my go-to. And they're surprising. Oh, and New Haven pizza. The pizza's

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great. Even though I'm lactose intolerant, they have a bunch of great pizza options. So they have

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a lot of great pizza options. So definitely people from New Haven have a very strong preference for

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which pizza place they love. And if you go there, that's the one thing I think you must try.

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Wonderful. Now, I love Thai food. I love Thai. I love curry. Yeah. So where are you originally from?

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Yeah. So I was born in Singapore. I'm half Thai. I grew up there for a fair bit. I moved to Australia

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for a few years. And then from Australia, I moved to the US. So I did my high school in South Carolina,

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in all places, right outside Charlotte. And I went back to Singapore to do the army. I

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met the college masters and here I am. So I've been around a little bit. Well, that is wonderful. I'm

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really, really honored to get to talk to you today. And so as far as your research goes,

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I mean, we're never done researching and learning, but as far as your thesis or your dissertation,

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do you feel like you're in the beginning, the middle or the end?

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Definitely the beginning. It's on average about a six year or so program in the US. It's a little

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shorter in the UK. So part of being in the US, it gives me a little more leeway in terms of time to

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work on the project. So being my first year, it's a great time to think about my project really

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carefully and figure out how I'm going to proceed to do this, write up my kind of perspective

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and head into the field. And with the current COVID situation, it's even more difficult because

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my research is trying to look at smart cities and water infrastructure in Laos. And so I can't really

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go there. The country's closed at this point. So hopefully in summer things clear up and I'm able

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to head down there because for an anthropologist being on the ground is like one of the most

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important things. And so definitely the beginning parts of the research, thinking a lot about

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how I'm going to proceed given the current situation, but also in terms of the project

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in general, making sure my research design is kind of well designed before I head there and

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do my research full time on the ground.

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No, very, very exciting. Wow. So cool. So a lot of learning and research and being in the academic

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world, the research world, the science community has to do with being curious. And so I know that

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you and I are both obviously curious about water. We are forming a friendship around that subject

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that I hope will last a long time because water is quite a problem as we look around the world on a

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lot of levels. So what is something that you're curious about or interested in that doesn't have

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anything to do with water? What are just some things you're curious about?

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Right. Too many things. I think one of my advisors in undergraduate made a comment once and said,

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given an analogy that I was like a crow and when there was a shiny object, I would go to that and

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get distracted really easily. And while the curiosity is great for a capstone, for an

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undergraduate level or for a PhD project, it's necessary to kind of focus in. So water is kind

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of my thing in a sense for my larger project, but so many, so many things that I'm curious about.

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And I think that's part of kind of a liberal arts education as well. So in undergraduate,

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there's a ton, for example, I was really interested in education, just thinking about the role of

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education and what that means, something I really wanted to do. And so I think that's

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taken up in my own kind of understanding of education and positionality is this idea of

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social labor. So this idea that sure, we might, whatever school we go to and whatever educational

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status we have, it's not really a badge of merit in so much as a representation of the social

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labor that's gone into it. Right. I could not have been here without the support of family, friends,

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and community at large. And so in doing that, I mean, it's super important for me to always

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keep connected and to recognize that it's not just me that's doing this. It's a kind of community

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that goes behind that and to not obfuscate this kind of badge of merit as an individual thing,

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but really kind of like connected to all these other processes and even privileges and to be

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aware and reflexive about those. So I think that's something super important to me, always really

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interested in education. I almost went into work in education instead of this academic power.

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So that's something that's always been close to heart. And there's a lot more urban theory,

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the idea of space, anthropological theory, and yeah, it goes on. Quite a long list, but yeah,

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happy to be up, happy to talk about most of that on any day. That's awesome. Well, I like what you

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said, you know, because what you shared was really rooted in humility. And, you know, a lot of the

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opportunity in life we have to be responsible for. So I like what you shared. I sensed a lot

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of humility there and a lot of responsibility in your voice with wanting to be a good steward of

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the opportunity that you've been given. That's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to be

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good stewards with the opportunities that have been presented to us. So very, very cool. That's

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very, very exciting. So we met, we focused, you know, on our interests are in water. And part of

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what I feel, you know, goes into being a good leader, a good influencer, whatever that means now.

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And to me, what that means is that we all have influence on some level. And so the question

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becomes, what do we do with that influence? And so, you know, there's, it's important to be,

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to use our influence in a good way. Part of using our influence in a good way is being self-aware.

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And being self-aware has to do with analyzing our mistakes. So one of my favorite questions to ask

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is, what is something that you feel like you might have done wrong in the last year that you would

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like to talk about? Sometimes we do things. So many things. And I feel like it's to have,

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for one thing to come through, there were a lot of failures that preceded that. So a ton of failures.

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And I guess failure, it's always a relational term. Like something that might seem like a success to

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someone else might be a failure on some level, to a very specific extent. So there's a lot. And

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to, I mean, usually this question I would get in terms of like a job interview, like what is a

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failure and how can I show like a narrative that demonstrates a strength or something or pitch it

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that way? But I think for me, in terms of failures, there's just, to just take the question a little

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bit of a different spin, it's just, for example, not getting a lot of fellowships and scholarships

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that I wanted to get and wondering like, how did I fail? When did I fail? And I mean, to some extent,

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it might not be personal. It might not be entirely a case of, oh, it's kind of a linear metric of

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merit. It may be a matter of fit. And I mean, there's all these ways of rationalizing it. But

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I think in terms of failure, like not getting a fellowship that I really wanted, well, okay. So

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it's, I think for all of them, I just kind of got to the point where it's like, I need to find,

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figure out good outlets to and a good community to figure out what to do when I fail at something.

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And for people to be there and just be like, oh, okay, let's go watch a movie or hang out,

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talk about something else. And like, there's this always this kind of weird feeling of like,

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oh, did I not do well enough or something like that? And just to figure out where I stand

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in relation to that. And it's not a kind of panacea. Like failure is never easy to grapple

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with, I think, and not getting fellowship. I'm like, well, I didn't get something I really wanted.

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And it's been everything from like either other PhD positions that I applied to. I mean, that's

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just the case. And if Yale didn't come through, it might be, you know, and nothing else came through,

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what do I do with myself? Right? And what can I do with myself? And Yale came through kind of

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later than other failures. So it was kind of, yeah, something, a lot of things I feel that in

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terms of applications, in terms of missteps along the way. And I think for me, it's interesting to

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think about what to do in response to that. And to recognize the inevitability of like, well,

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failure isn't gonna be fun, but what do I do? And who do I have around to kind of walk through that

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journey with? It sounds kind of semi philosophical, but it's just basically like failures aren't great.

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Having a community to walk through that is super key. And I think in terms of the pandemic,

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it's been even more important and intentional to cultivate those relationships, especially

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in a super intellectual environment in a PhD program.

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Yeah, I love that. And I have a joke with my, with some close friends that failure is fondly referred

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to as learning opportunities. So we all have plenty of learning opportunities in our life.

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That's really funny. And I like what you said about, you know, just having the right people

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around you. I just had this conversation this morning. There's a friend of mine that I serve

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with quite a bit. And today, it was 40, 45 degrees on the beach, but the the wind chill factor was

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much colder than that. And we were sitting in the car, and the car had like warm seats. And I was

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looking at the waves, and I was not looking forward to it at all, actually today. And but my buddy,

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he got us out there. And, you know, there's something to be said for having the right people

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around you that are that enable you to, you know, to do well. So very, very cool. Let's

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take a take a bit of a right. And let's talk a bit about the world of water kind of what got you

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interested in the water sector.

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Yeah, so this, um, this came from my research in undergraduate when I ended up in a village. So

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at that point, I was working with my advisor and talking about the ways we can do ethnographic work

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in a village. And so for me, I got connected with a friend of friend with friend and ended up in a

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village in Northern Thailand. And so I went to do community work there to just kind of have a chat

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about what's what's going on there and for a couple hours. And so the recurring theme or the main

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theme of what the main takeaway I had was, we have a water problem. And so in Thai, it's, oh, we have

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a banh hand up now. So like, literally, we have problem with water. And I'm like, what is this

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problem? And I'm like, well, we turn on the tab, there's no water. I'm like, okay. So interesting.

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So I, I framed my research project in undergraduate around this water problem, which was

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central in this particular village when, when job came around, and particularly severe drought,

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people turn on their water, and there's just no water. So what is, how do you think, how can we

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think about this? And so reading into literature, kind of talking to a bunch of people across the

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village, living in the village for a couple of weeks. And so that's kind of my first introduction

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to water. And the next year I worked, just happened to work with a friend, get connected with, through

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a friend to this, to this lab in Chiang Mai. And it was the opposite of a drought, it was a flood.

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So we were looking at ways, it was a kind of a lab, a month long conference sort of thing,

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where we got academics, practitioners, policymakers to come together to work towards this issue of

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flooding in the city and in Chiang Mai. And so opposite of drought, not too far from my original

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field site, but water in a different sense. So I was engaged to like help with translations,

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interviews, talking to various people, and doing an art exhibition as well, and a range of things

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around the idea of water. So I guess that was kind of several ways into the world of water.

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People telling me that's a big problem they had and kind of like relating to that in that way and

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working in the research field with other really, really interesting folks as well.

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Well, our experiences have been similar. My

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experience was in some villages in Fiji and also in El Salvador. And what's interesting is,

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you know, water is, there can be a quality problem in cities, but there's an access problem in

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villages. And so you brought up a great point talking about Thailand. And that is one of the

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108 countries of the world that have a direct ocean access. And so, you know, I think that's

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the biggest problem. And so, you know, I think that's the biggest problem. And so, you know,

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there's a lot of people in the world that have a direct ocean access. And so, there's opportunity

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to have discussions about some of the work that we do, you know, some of the work that we do

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on small-scale solar power desalinization projects, which I believe is going to be the future of water

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in many ways, because the large centralized systems that built the last 100 years have,

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you know, sort of gotten us to where we are, but they've also left quite a few people out. In fact,

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probably nearly a billion people in the world still have an access problem. And it's quite a

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big problem. What's accelerating this problem too is the population growth now. So not only is it

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currently arguably a billion person problem, but we're supposed to add another billion people in

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the next 30 years, according to the math guesstimates. So there are a lot of conversations

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to be had. It's one of the reasons why I enjoy doing these talks, you know, for guys like you and

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I who think about this subject a lot. It's front and center for us. But I like to have these

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conversations with friends like yourself, because it helps include people into part of the bigger

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discussion, especially when we start to think about the real problems of the world. In my opinion,

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the real problems of the world mostly have to do with water, food and housing. And there are other

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serious problems, but most problems take a backseat to water, food and housing.

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Those are quite large problems that we still have. So what do you know about, you know, like

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some of the work that I do or small scale desalinization? What are some of your thoughts on

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that? Yeah, I think that's super important. It's great to see the work that you're doing and

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creating these or enhancing really like water access points for people who need water. I think

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that's a really clear need and a global problem. So know that the work that you're doing is fantastic

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and in terms of the mechanics of small scale water desalinization, it's interesting in so much as

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so coming from Singapore, growing up in Singapore, we had one of the big kind of existential problems

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for Singapore since independence was water. And thinking about how we can get water from Malaysia,

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and there's still political tensions today of how that happens. But what Singapore has done

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in the past number of decades is to create more taps and diversified sources so that it's

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politically importantly, not so dependent on any one particular source. If that taps off,

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that's it, the country has no water. So what Singapore has done is to kind of

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spread out and diversify sources, one of which is new water. And so

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when I was in elementary school, I remember the water is this kind of desalination plant

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using coilet water. No, sorry, not desalination. So desalination is separate, but this kind of

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filtration method using coilet water. So thinking about that when we were in elementary school, and

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we had to drink the water on a field trip, we're not huge fans of it, but it's become kind of

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normalized in society in Singapore today. So it's kind of widespread. So desalination is one thing

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that's of course doing, but that's not enough. And so we've had to think about other methods of water

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to create potable water and new water is one of them and recycling water that way. So

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desalination kind of like in Singapore can't work on a small scale because of the ways that

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Singapore is just kind of the political system of Singapore and the kind of needs of the country.

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So that's kind of how I've grown up thinking about water and experiencing it and ideas of

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desalination. And I remember talking about this in elementary school about the importance of

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desalination as a country and how this is an existential problem. Yeah, it's a fascinating

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sector to focus in. It's very interesting to do work in this market. It's a large market.

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And it's something that I became really passionate about because I've surfed since I was a kid.

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And so when I started doing my research for public health, something clicked with me. It made perfect

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sense to me that we would try to secure some of our water rights from the ocean, which is quite

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nice because nobody owns the ocean, not yet. So yeah, it's very interesting. And yeah, I've

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really enjoyed this conversation that we've had today. And I can't thank you enough for

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taking the time to talk with me and to begin a friendship. And I believe life is about

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friendships and the people that you meet, the conversations that you have. And so thank you

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for just allowing me to have some time with you. And I'm very, very excited about the work that

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you're doing at Yale. I'm very excited about the PhD that you're working on. And who knows? Maybe

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our paths will cross someday and we can find a small pocket of people to serve in Thailand. I

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would be very, very interested in that. My passion these days are for the marginalized communities.

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And what I mean when I say that are segments of people that are like about a thousand people or

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less. I really, really enjoy doing work in those areas and we can keep each other's contact

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information and perhaps we can do some work together in the future. That'd be quite wonderful.

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And so one of the things that I like to do to end these talks is, are there any last words

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that we need to hear from you, brother? What do you got for us? What do we need to hear from you?

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Oh, I'm not sure I have any wise words per se. I mean, I was thinking about how to, what would

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I say that is relevant and thinking about people's involvement. So like listening to a podcast and

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things like this, like what can I do if I'm interested in water? What can I do to get involved?

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And I think it doesn't, well, water is a great, and there are many axes to get involved in terms

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of water, access and wherever that is. I think it's important to find something that clicks

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and personally something in the locality. And for me, it's just being able to serve in the

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locality and just being involved in that. And even though like I'm traveling, relocate every year at

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this point or every other year, it's important for me to get to know the local community in some

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sense and try to be able to serve them, whether it's water or not. And I think figuring that out,

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especially during the pandemic and seeing what needs can be met is something that is close to

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my heart. And Yale is one of, New Haven is one of the most segregated cities in the world.

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The most segregated communities, I think, and as I'm kind of held in kind of social science

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literature is one of the places to study what went wrong to a certain extent. And to think about how

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to get involved in that community is something that I've been trying to think about and get

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involved with when I'm there. So in terms of what I can recommend people thinking about,

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and whether that's water, just to figure out whether it's water or not, like something that

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resonates with you and to get involved in that, in whatever you constitute as community, whether

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that's kind of in your locality or people you connect with far away and contributing

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to those causes that way. I think practice is a huge part of my life and I'd love for it to be

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more. And so I guess if I have anything to say, either just finding something that resonates and

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thinking about practices and working together with people. Yeah. And I'll keep it at that.

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Well, that was very wise. I mean, that was, you said a lot there and that's exactly what's kept me

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going back to Palmar Cedar in El Salvador where we built our friendships and our relationships

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and installed a small-scale desalinization system there. That's what keeps me going back. I've been

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there 14 times now and that's what keeps me going back are the people. And so as you said,

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find a context and find a project and some people that you really enjoy and you can spend some time

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there. So, well, thank you so much for your time today, Al. I really appreciate it. Thanks for your

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friendship and we'll see you in touch. Yeah. Okay. Have a great day, brother.

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Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Bye-bye.