Now, welcome to another inspiring edition of
Sound Insight with Dr. Tom Curran. Hey, welcome
to the program. Kerry, it's Faith and Family
Friday, and we're going to talk about something
that I think is pretty cool. It's a quiet revival.
And one way that you could describe it is by
saying a phrase that's not typically a positive
one. And that phrase is, Standing room only.
Where do you want to have standing room only?
In the Lord's house. Oh, yes. As long as we get
to sit. Right? I actually feel guilty when we're
at Easter Vigil Mass or some big celebration
Mass, and I'm sitting in my nice suit with my
kids because we all got there early. And then
you see the family that's standing along the
wall, and it's a two -hour Mass. And there's
like a mom there. And I'm thinking, Am I supposed
to get up and give up my seat? Yes. I am? Is
the right answer yes? I don't think I've ever
done that. Maybe I have. Not a lot, though. It's
pretty humble. Well, today we're going to dig
into what this phenomenon is of people coming
back to church. And not just people, but millennials,
Gen Xers, young adults coming back to the church.
And what is that all about? Where is that happening?
Is it happening in the U .S.? Is it happening
around the world? And then we'll dig into some
reasons why it's happening. And then I want to
take a historical look and give us a complementary
reason that we should always be praying for regarding
revival in the church. Because I do believe that
we're in this world where the church is called
to play a part that's bigger than we're playing
right now. And this revival that's happening
might just be a part of that. Lots to talk about
today. I'm excited to get started and we will
in just one minute. Hey, this is Dr. Tom Caron,
the host of Sound Insight, but also a realtor
serving wonderful folks like you in the state
of Washington and in Idaho. I've had the privilege
and pleasure of helping dozens of families discern
and find a strategy, a path, and a plan to help
their families find a whole new life in eastern
Washington and northern Idaho. If I could be
of service to you in that, I would love to. Please
reach out. drtomcurran .com, drtomcurran .com.
Okay, let's pray. In the name of the Father,
and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Heavenly
Father, in Jesus' holy name, I thank you and
praise you for the good gifts that you pour out
upon our lives. And Lord, I thank you for the
surprises. I thank you for how you surprise us
in life by having things manifest themselves
that are clearly not from us and what we do,
but are clearly from you. And so, Lord, I do
pray that we would have the eyes to see and the
ears to respond, to listen to what it is you
are asking of us through what we talk about today.
We make this prayer, Jesus, in your holy name.
Amen. Amen. In the name of the Father, and the
Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Carrie, I was
talking with... We were at that couple's house.
We had dinner with two other couples and they
were mentioning that one of the biggest pains
in their hearts was kids not going to church
and kids having kids not getting baptized and
not being part of the church. And I certainly
have heard about that phenomenon for 25 years,
30 years in ministry. People would come up to
me and say, what can I do? What more could I
have done? Well, we're not here to talk about
that. We're here to talk about something that...
is a phenomenon. It's a surprising thing that's
occurring, and you brought a video to me. Yeah,
well, the video is Fox News. It was on a couple
nights ago, and they were highlighting this parish
in, is it New Greenwich? Greenwich? Greenwich
Village in New York. And just seeing that more
people are joining the Catholic Church. than
are leaving. And it's not just a small amount.
They have numbers where 175 ,000 people came
into the church in 2000, the year 2000. And in
2020, it was all the way down to 70 ,000. But
now they're back to near records of 170 ,000.
So that's a good 100 ,000 people more. And if
you've noticed that in the classes that they
have, a lot of more catechumens are standing
up to go out to the class or teaching they have.
It's evident, and I think we've just been hearing
this, not just in the Seattle area, but we saw
it here recently. And then just from talking
to some family and friends across the country,
it definitely is happening in greater numbers.
And I think this news story confirmed that. So
we just are going to do a deeper dive into why
that's happening. And I guess you can kind of
maybe point to the more obvious reasons. I just
was actually wondering, like, let's specifically
look at what the details are. And not just Catholic,
how many are returning to Protestant churches?
And what kind of Christian churches are they
returning to? Because it will surprise you. Yeah,
I learned about some surprising statistics. After
Pope Leo became Pope, the searches for how to
become Catholic spiked by 373%. That's pretty
cool. Unless it went from 200 searches to 800
searches, then that's not that impressive. But
something that I think is closer to your heart
are Sikh conferences. Yeah, and they did say
that their attendance was up like 25 % this year,
even though it was in three different locations.
But the clear tell is that Bible cells, guess
how much Bible cells have gone up since... I
don't know, 2019. No idea. Well, they said that
it has doubled from the numbers they had in 2019,
up 42%. And that it's at a 21 -year high, which
I think... That's huge. I wonder why. Why would
it go down in 2019? You figure it would go up
because they're probably measuring it in relationship
to COVID. Maybe, but they have the Bible in the
air. Maybe people are just trying to get more
into the Word or into a book. and not be on their
phone. But that would be interesting. Anyhow,
just to say that, so it's not just Catholics
returning to church and returning to faith. Well,
and I love what you asked. You said, is this
just in America? And come to find out, no, it's
happening in lots of places around the world.
Yeah. What was the one that was most surprising
to you when we did a little bit of online research?
You mentioned Austria, and that was a striking
one. I just think what's so striking is, this
was not on my bingo card until the kids say,
that this kind of revival in the young adults,
it's in young, Gen Z, Gen X, and just the amount
of the momentum it has. And it's just interesting,
like, what are they drawn to? And it's not that
we don't appreciate our Catholic faith, but...
What are they seeking that they're lacking? So
I think just generally, Tom, that it's happening
across the world. We are such a global, connected
community. And some of this gets stirred by online
media, by Instagram, TikToks, believe it or not.
And so you actually see that impact in your parishes
week to week, which is really interesting. Well,
when we went to Ash Wednesday Mass, it was the
last Mass. at the St. Paul's Student Center,
we practically couldn't fit in the cry room.
Like the whole church was there and the whole
standing room area was filled. We were in the
cry room and it was filled and it kind of went
down to the hallway. And so when I said standing
room only, there is something kind of cool about
that. When you're part of something and there's
such a big crowd there, it does make you feel
like, hey, wait a minute, I don't want to miss
out. What's going on? Yeah, for sure. I think
that's really powerful. Well, and you also asked
the other interesting question, is this just
a Catholic thing? Or are Christian denominations
also experiencing that? And I had forgotten about
some of the signs that, oh yeah, wait a minute,
it's beyond Catholicism. Well, I know when Charlie
Kirk was assassinated, that really did... stir
a lot of people to go online, watch his videos,
become more awakened to, I need to live a stronger,
more courageous life. So I think his martyrdom
definitely opened people to seek out their faith
and live a more fruitful, impactful life and
not live for themselves. Well, and that is an
extreme testimony, right? The witness of a life.
given to a cause that was for him deeply related
to his own life of faith. I think of the phenomenon
of praise and worship and like God falling, the
Holy Spirit falling and people just praying.
And so at Asbury College, I think that was in
North Carolina, back in 2023, there were like
16 days of continual. praise and worship and
people were coming. Didn't your brother go? I
don't remember. I just, it kind of came and went,
but it was, you know, it was kind of, it was
exciting. You want, you know, we're expecting
God to move and some of this, how much of it
is Holy Spirit driven? How much of it is this
just kind of ache in the heart? What's so interesting
is actually the mainline Protestant churches
are closing. So it's not... any christian church
right yeah and this is the part that is not that
surprising to me and this is this will make a
like a reassertion it'll have an application
to catholic churches but uh if you have a let's
say liberal leaning protestant churches they're
closing at the rate of about 15 000 churches
a year closing i don't even know what that means
because there's so many so many but Terry, that's
like 300 per state. I think what it shows is
they're not wanting to go inside a kind of indescript
law environment, like a big warehouse. It's the
Presbyterians or the Lutherans or the... Well,
it's Catholic, Pentecostal, Orthodox, and theologically
conservative. And for me, that makes sense. Catholic
and Orthodox, it makes sense for reasons that
we'll discuss. That are growing. Growing, yeah.
What I'm saying is the ones that are closing
is where it's just kind of bland. Yeah, if you're
softening your message, you're dying. Or if it's
just not beautiful. I think you're right. In
fact, beauty is going to open us up into the
next part of this program because our goal in
hearing about this is to think more deeply about
the phenomenon. What is it that's drawing these
young people of these various segments of American
society and even around the world? What's drawing
them? And beauty, I think, is going to be one
of the five and, in fact, probably the first
reason why these people are coming back. Well,
and I think we talked about this the other night
with these couples. naming the anxiousness, the
loneliness, damage by social media, just kind
of those more, not lazy answers, but not as nuanced.
And those are all true, right? But the thing
is, it's not every church growing. If that was
the case, all churches would be growing, but
they're not. Like we said, 15 ,000 are closing.
So there's something specific. Actually, that's
a great point. I had never thought about that.
Yeah, you're right. Anxiety would drive people
to all the churches. So what is it about these
specific churches where they've left the secular
world and they're moving into the Catholic church
specifically? Well, one of the distinctions that
I've used as a nice entry point into all of this
is in the business world. When I would go and
talk to people and say, will you give us money
to start up this business? they would say this
same insight in one of two ways. They would say,
what problem are you solving? Or what pain point
are you addressing? Because they have discovered
that the most successful businesses, the ones
that actually survived, weren't simply those
that were providing a vitamin, but were more
of a pain reliever. So that distinction was very
helpful and it makes sense. When are you more
likely to go to your medicine cabinet and take
pills in a bottle? Is it that you want a vitamin
to improve your strength, or are you going to
get something because you have a terrible headache?
Yeah, well, I think that's why pain would explain
why they leave the secular life, but it doesn't
explain why they go to the Catholic or more traditional
churches specifically. There is a way in which
this awakening in the heart and the depth of
the soul of longing for something that is more
than just a pain reliever. Because you can also,
you know, take pain reliever could be getting
involved in different addictions or, you know,
you just kind of numb it by doing different activities
or staying really busy. There's almost this deep
longing and awakening of there's more. And the
neat thing about... the TikToks I was watching
or the videos, is there something about social
media, which we'll get to, that allows people
to see online visually what the church looks
like inside. And then they see all these young
adults that are in their twenties gathering and
socializing in a healthy, you know, not in the
rock club or the dance halls or wherever, but
in a holy space. And then them all testifying
to this beautiful life they've found. And that,
kind of awakening of truth that there's more,
I think is one of the reasons or one of the evangelistic
tools that's being used to enhance this coming
back to the church. Right. Yeah. I think the
way that you just said it, when they're seeing
a picture of something that is supremely attractive,
they're drawn to it. So yeah, maybe that they're
in pain is like a crack in the armor. And maybe
it's like, breaking open the ache in the heart,
the emptiness in their lives. Okay, so they know
what they want to leave from, but what are they
going to be drawn to? And drawn to in a way that
is sustainable, more than just the pill, because
the pill runs out. They want something that will
actually solve that. Provide a solution. So when
we come back, we're going to dig into a Catholic...
and traditional framework for exploring this.
And they actually provide the three most prominent
reasons for the phenomenon to gain some really
deeper insight. So Kerry, who would have thought
that St. Thomas Aquinas and his transcendental
attributes of being written back in the 1270s
would explain a phenomenon Let's see, 750 years
later. Well, that's actually part of the solution
is there's so much beauty and truth in the way
older, older, older documents and writings that
today's answers are not sufficient. And so as
we share, it's just really fascinating to see
people smart, like high IQ people that are really...
earnest and want the truth and want the real
substance that they're not settling for the last,
you know, 50 years of writing. They're going
back hundreds, hundreds of years. Well, and you
touched upon the first two transcendental attributes
of being beauty and truth and the third one's
goodness, right? So everything that is, has a
manifestation that is beautiful and true and
good. And as we have dug into the research, and
attempted to come to insight, lo and behold,
the number one reason that so many young people
are drawn is the beauty of the liturgy. Not everybody,
but the number one reason is this beauty of the
liturgy. One way of saying it is beauty is the
tip of the spear. It's what gets them through
the door. Yeah, and I think it's interesting.
You hear these stories of people that have never
been in a Catholic cathedral or that kind of
church environment. sacred space, and they walk
in and they just can tell there's a presence,
there's a sacredness. And then you hear these
stories of them converting. Within the next few
days, they seek out the priest or the administration
and say, how do I join this church? I don't think
that happens when you go into a megachurch. I'm
just saying. Not that they don't do their own
good work. So on Wednesday, we went to Mass in
the evening at the St. Paul Student Center in
Boise. And what was the setting? Oh, it was the
candlelight mass. Candlelight mass. The only
lights on in the entire church were candles.
They even brought candles over to the ambo so
that when the readings were read, the lector
could read the scriptures. So there was an attention
to the environment that was different. There
was something that said, we are going to put
on display this event in a way that points you
to something beyond that is something beyond
this world, right? Because at a created level,
the level of creation in the world around us,
we refer to that as the beautiful. But when you
introduce the supernatural level, the word is
no longer beauty. But the word for supernatural
beauty, divine beauty, also evokes this concept
of majesty. And the word is glory. Glory is majestic,
divine beauty manifested. And so I think that
because we were made for God, when we see a manifestation
in earthly events and in an earthly setting,
that is a hint and a place of contact, a place
of coming out into the open of divine beauty
that's majestic, it's glorious. That... is overwhelming.
Yeah, and I think, well, if you think about what
it's drawing, it's these kids that are very,
kind of a sterile, minimalistic life, a lot of
scrolling on phones, being kind of connected
to that world. And then they walk into this sacred
space. It's not like a typical mall or restaurant.
Actually, you don't just stumble upon a cathedral.
And to go into that environment and never having
been in maybe a church setting, it has to touch
something deep within them. And I say that only
because several of the people interviewed have
referenced they're going to this candlelit. That's
what they're drawn to. Or the altars or the Gregorian
Chan or the stained glass or just all those.
Or something that you're less attuned to or less
attracted to in smaller environments. And that
is the incense. Oh, the incense. I was thinking
the boys. I don't know. Finding a nice good man
to marry. And the Latin. I mean, just that old
language. The mystery of it all. All of a sudden
now you're communicating in language and then
a form of communication. If you noticed. If you
remember, Father Nathan, that presided at the
Mass, he sung the entire Mass. So it was a sung
liturgy. And much of the music that was introduced
was Latin. So it was plain chant or Gregorian
chant. So it was an attempt to, even in the...
the call and response aspects of the liturgical
prayer, it was elevated. It was elevated. It
was supernaturalized. That's the intent. And
that speaks to the human contact with the divine,
with the supernatural. It's the mysterium tremendum
et faci fascinans. That's the way of referring
to what happens when we come in contact with
the holy, with the divine. We have this sense
of a mystery that is overwhelming, and so there's
an awe, and yet it is supremely attractive. So
it's glorious. It's divinely beautiful at the
same time. What a powerful experience. It's so
beautiful. And I don't know if you've noticed,
but I've noticed here in the Boise area, more
Latin, more tradition, less... Like, I don't
think... The church is going or tending towards
a more kind of community spirit of, hey, let's
all... I mean, we're getting to the point where
people don't even shake hands anymore. They just
move right into... The sign of peace, you're
saying. The sign of peace, yes. They all admit
that. I noticed several churches are starting
to admit the sign of peace, or it's just becoming
very minimized. And you can just tell little
things show up that... You see the church going
more in a traditional manner. Well, and again,
what we're doing is we're associating this. We're
not making an argument. We're just saying, what
is it that's drawing people? Yeah, that's so
true. And just trying to identify the phenomenon.
I think that, for instance, they're drawn to
more sacred architecture as well, like a beautiful
stained glass windows, right? Like the cathedral.
St. John the Evangelist Cathedral. Incredible
architecture and art on the inside. And the stained
glass windows are stunning. Like Our Lady of
Lourdes, same thing. And these are very, St.
Thomas up in Coeur d 'Alene, these beautiful
churches, it itself has a magnetic pull to it.
And so I like this idea that we read. It was
that you don't have to argue someone into awe.
Beauty does the work that a thousand arguments
can't. And so it's just like, let God speak for
himself through the church in some of its most
beautiful architectural displays. So beauty,
the beauty of the liturgy is one of the reasons
why. Anything else you want to say about that,
Carrie? We can move on to the second reason.
No, I might just come back around to it as we
share some other points. They're complementary.
It's like a Venn diagram. They overlap. Yeah,
for sure. Okay, the second one, we went from
beauty. The next one is truth. And that also
was very striking to me when you listened to
people and said, what was it that drew them into
the Catholic Church? And it was that... There
was a doctrinal conviction, a clarity, and a
sense of an authoritative, this is what is true
and correct and right in belief and behavior.
I imagine, and you can answer that, in the depth
of the human person, you need truth. You hunger
for truth. You want foundational truth to stand
on. You hear the saying that kids say, that's
your truth, or live your truth, or what's your
truth, and kind of this moral relativism of everyone
has their own truth. And the kids, the kids,
these young adults have rejected it. They're
like, this does not work. It leaves us miserable
and smart enough to probably go on, listen to
podcasts or listen to their friends. And they
really want to have a deeper conversation of
what is truth. And that's where I mentioned they're
going back hundreds of years to look at what
does the catechism teach or what is moral theology?
Yeah. And so there's, I think there are two dimensions
to it. So there are the beliefs in the mind,
and then there's the beliefs as they get transferred
into behaviors that get lived out in our day
-to -day lives. And I think that both dimensions
are crucial to this reality of what's attractive.
When you have solid, convicting preaching and
teaching around this is what's right and this
is what's wrong, It makes a difference. I remember
for our own kids, when we first moved to Spokane,
we were going, this was back in 2019, we brought
our kids to a few different churches. And when
we would go to St. Joan of Arc in Post Falls,
one of the things that Draca stood out was the
strength and the clarity of, this is what the
church teaches. And this is what it means for
how you're supposed to live. And if you're not
living it, you're in sin. And if you're in a
certain sin, then you should not come forward
to Holy Communion. You should be going to confession.
I think now we're used to some of these topics,
but I think some of the first homilies we heard
on hell or on abortion or on divorce, we had
never heard priests get up and teach. real theology
and kind of moral. Let's just say what the church
teaches. What the church teaches. I was like,
I've never heard a talk on this. And you think,
and I think people were afraid they would offend
people or that they'd turn them off. But actually
what they're finding is kids, young adults are
like, no, this is true and truth matters. And
if you're not apologizing for it, it turns out
kids are way more attractive. to people that
are taking a stand and pushing back, and stand
up for something. Stand with conviction. Don't
just be mousy, wousy, pelsy, whatever that phrase
is that I just made up. Well, I think about it,
and it's what I noticed in my now 35 years of
doing church work is that in the 90s and then
in the 80s when I was in the seminary, but in
the 90s and beyond when I was doing church ministry,
So much of what the church did was found a seat
at the table with the modern world. And where
the modern world started to disagree and those
disagreements turned into laws and policies,
there was very little to no pushback. Like, let's
stand up. Let's take a stand. Let's push back
strongly because ideas have consequences. And
that's something that we ought to be aware of.
And as a result, we gave more ground away. And
it was done in the name of being kind or tolerant.
Tolerant was, I think, a big word and not wanting
to impose our beliefs. So it left us in oftentimes
weaker positions catechetically if the people,
if the faithful were not really formed strongly
on why we believed what we believed. So truth
matters. And I think that that And what the research
is saying is that that is one of the primary
reasons why people are in fact drawn. And that's
so that it's a partial explanation for the phenomenon.
So we've talked about beauty. We've talked about
truth. The next is we're going to talk about
goodness. And goodness is very often connected
to human flourishing. And this phenomenon is
meeting a need to flourish in young people today.
And that TikTok guy said a lot about it. So Carrie,
I mentioned this TikTok guy. And as we talk about
goodness, I tend to focus more on individual
human flourishing through making moral decisions.
He raised it to a very different level when in
his comments about, why don't you come and check
it out? He began with a very different door to
go through. It wasn't beauty and it wasn't truth.
It was community. Yeah, and I know they say that.
These kids are the most lonely generation there
is. And there is a way in which, and we can all
attest to this, it's very easy for me to be by
myself on my phone and isolate and just not connect
person to person. It's just so much easier. And
you can see this with a bunch of young adults.
They sit in a room together and they're all there
together, but they're on their phone doing different
things. And it's just, I'm so glad. I did not
grow up in this age because it's difficult. It's
tough. And I think anyhow, this ache is becoming
even more apparent. And because there is this
loneliness and, you know, they're promised this
is going to help you feel socialized. And, you
know, the more followers you have, the more likes
you have, the better. But it's just not true.
So there's something very specific about how
the church is providing community for young adults.
Yeah, and I think the line was, come for the
community, stay for the Lord. If you come for
the community, you'll stay for the Lord. And
it's so fascinating because, again, when you
say there's the ache in the heart, it's a relational
ache. Because what we're really empty for is
a relationship with the Lord. And so oftentimes
it'll be relationships with those who know the
Lord that become a facilitator. an instrument,
a conduit for other people to come to know the
Lord as well. I can remember this way back when,
when I first experienced my own awakening of
faith. The most natural thing was to gather around
me others who had a like mind. So I ended up
gathering with Mark and Scott and Janet and Leslie
and Mike Shannon and these high school classmates
of mine. Some of them were dear friends. Others
were just acquaintances. But we ended up coming
together and we started a Bible study. And it
was kind of the blind leading the blind, but
there was something that we all had together,
which was our common Catholic faith. And we all
had this common hunger to go deeper into it together.
Yeah. The other thing that they mentioned is
you have a generation that is really been about
like self -optimization or self -expression or,
you know, those You can see the influencers,
they do this whole thing of what's my personal
brand. And it's been so self -focused and self
-centered that it's left these young adults with
such a hunger. They're exhausted by, please,
I don't want this to be about me anymore. And
when is it most not about you? You go into Mass,
you're not on your phone. It's just you and the
Lord, and you're praying through the liturgy.
But that must be really... To have not done that
growing up and then you do this for the first
time or you're introduced to this, there has
to be some space where God breaks in and draws
them to himself. Because that really is a time
where you're not on your phone for at least one
hour. I have never thought about that. But I'm
like, well, of course not. But I'm not part of
that generation that has had, that are cyborgs,
that live with that. constant presence of their
phone. And all of a sudden, and you can kind
of play this out, it's not just the phone, but
you're sitting in one spot. You're sitting still.
You have times of silence. You have times where
you're choosing to, you're being invited to participate,
to sing music that you didn't select. You're
not at a concert. And so the music that is there
is meant to aid you in a whole different direction.
That's really worth thinking about. Probably
the closest is almost like if you're at a football
game and you're in the crowd. Yeah. You don't
know who you're with, but you're all there for
the same reason, for the action that's happening
on the field, and you're drawn into the game.
Well, I mean, you could say you're not there
for this. It's not about you. You're not there
for your feelings or therapy or being entertained.
You're there really for the Lord and for the
sacrifice of the Mass. And that is what people
are saying they're drawn to. And I wonder, I
think that it would be the kind of thing where
they come because of the phenomenon. They're
moved and they're not sure what it is. And then
it gets interpreted for them. It's the Lord.
You've come into contact with the divine, and
the Lord is drawing close to you. And the liturgy
is inviting you into this whole other dimension
of living. And you're hearing truths about who
God is that are solid, and you can base your
life on it. And you see other people who have
had this positive impact on their lives. I always
love to say that, that when you have people of
faith that are together, what are they radiating?
Freedom. Joy, life, a sense of forgiveness, openness
to each other. There's laughter. These are things
that probably are just more rare in day -to -day
existence when people are pursuing a path without
God. And now all of a sudden, there's this puzzle.
What have I been missing? It's the Lord. Yeah,
and I think, I mean, and also the aftermath.
Or after a church service, they gather in the
hall. There's a fellowship. And you think this
fellowship is different than what they're used
to. It's usually they're all sitting in a room
on their phones, but just really scrolling. They
don't put their phones down and have conversations.
That's not common unless it's organized. Even
in your classroom, you're on your laptop taking
notes. So here you have young adults off their
phones. with Father or some kind of director
leading a conversation on moral theology, on
deep, heart -probing questions about what's the
meaning of life. And they're all on this journey
together, and they're getting real person experience
in relationships and connection. And that just
has to be so freeing and so just different. Because
they've grown up without this. You think it's
like, how far have we fallen in the last 10 years
with technology? But they're just thrilled to
get together in a room and share a meal and talk
about the Lord. And that's beautiful. Well, they're
actually getting the promise fulfilled that social
media and its platforms have made, but couldn't
deliver. which was that community and fellowship.
Okay, so the fourth reason. So those are the
three reasons, and those are connected very much
to the transcendental attributes of being, but
there's also a couple of other reasons. And I
want to move into a reason that we could say
is more about like a pain reliever, and that's
just broadly speaking a reaction to cultural
chaos. Yeah. And I think like they had, they
are interviewing people at like Texas A &M and
they just said, we just want something real.
That's authentic. That's just not crazy. That's
not way out there. And we can just come and be
ourselves and be received. It's that simple.
And, you know, I'm thinking, oh, this must be
a phenomenon. This is insane. All these people,
this is incredible. And it's just the Lord doing
what the Lord does. I'm here, I'm waiting for
you, and I just want to be real and have a relationship
with you. So yeah, just not the cultural chaos
that they would find in their dorms or in the
bars or wherever they happen to be in their workplace.
Yeah. Well, when you think about the variety
of things that are relentlessly coming at them
on social media, it's everything from this, what's
that word? cultivate a certain image of yourself
uh and you know so then it's all the the influencer
well you know they well they have the apps where
it's like swipe white swipe left so that's that's
the sort of hookup culture and all that so it's
all it's all curated that's the word yes so you're
curating like this sense of who you are and and
then even just the messages out there about You
can be anybody you want. So just sort of the
gender fluid stuff. And this, the demonic gender
ideology stuff, it's bankrupt. And it leads people
into, again, just dark, chaotic places. And so
this is a real pain reliever. This is a pain
reliever. So that's the fourth reason. Okay,
the fifth reason is one that surprised me. I
don't think it surprised you as much. Well, it
made total sense when I watched the TikTok videos.
I was like, oh, this is actually the engine.
There's the ache in the heart. There's the sense
of I'm wanting, I'm made for more. But this is
actually what's promoting it. And it's amazing
what kids, young adults. Didn't say what it was.
Well, that's okay. We'll get there. Well, you're
really systematic and I like to come in through
the back window. Uh, but there's a way in which,
um, those young, our younger generations are
on these platforms and they see something and
they want to do it. They see like people jumping
off cliffs that are 200 feet high in Brazil,
or they see somebody skydiving, or they see someone
traveling to this special place for like in the
Camino. Yes. And, and so that's funny is they're
seeing Catholics, young adults going to church
and is actually making people be like, Oh, is
that a thing? I didn't even know that was a thing.
Yeah, maybe that's where I need to go. So it's
this funny, like, off -ramp, unexpected off -ramp
of what, you know, technology everyone's going
to assume would kill the church is actually becoming
its biggest promoter or recruiter. Yeah, so the
fifth reason then is the internet itself. What
we so often are talking about as the solution
to the internet, which is come back to faith
in God. is actually a tool used to get people
back to faith and God. Well, you hear these people
that go on YouTube channels, or typically YouTube
channels do deeper dives and they give a lot
of visual. But I wondered, don't people get a
hunger? Don't they want to deep dive a topic?
Because it's so interesting and fascinating,
something they've never thought of, why we're
here and the purpose of life. And so they go
on and they... start searching out Catholic history,
and pretty soon they kind of spiral into this
conversion of, wait, there's more. And so it
is actually probably doing a great job evangelizing
people not even realizing it. Well, then you
have the testimonies of what happens in the life
of someone like Jordan Peterson, right? Didn't
his wife become Catholic? And there's this sense
of, is he, he's... kind of more overt about his
Christian faith. Well, even Joe Rogan just said
the other day that he's going to church, and
the interviewer. Really? Yes, in the Diary of
a CEO. Everyone's getting on board, Tom. It's
a phenomenon. The Diary of a CEO did a whole
thing on a guy said, tell me why God is real.
And it was all about faith, and it was one of
their most popular. shows or YouTube videos just
came out four days ago. And it was really interesting.
He, he doesn't do it from an evangelistic point
of view, but from what is life about very philosophical.
And, um, it was really, it was well done. I didn't
listen to the whole thing, but Joe Rogan, I go
to church now. He goes, I go because I have found
the nicest, kindest people because you go to
church and everyone is so nice. And he didn't
mean better than an MMA. He said, I don't confess
Christianity. I'm not there yet, but I'm really
open. Isn't that amazing? So you have these real
independent, moderate influencers putting out
the message. She's the number one podcaster right
now in the world, Candace Owens. She is? Yeah,
she's number one. That's crazy. And she's a traditionalist
Catholic. Probably doesn't hurt folks considering
the Catholic faith. I don't know. She's a great
promoter of that part of her life. That's a different
conversation. I know. When we come back, we're
going to go beyond these five reasons to a deeper
reason that is historically a reason for revival
and drawing people magnetically to the church.
Welcome back. Yesterday, if you were listening
to the program, It was my Catholic coaching hour,
and I shared a practice that transforms how I
coach executives and also how I parent my nine
kiddos. It's intercessory prayer as a leadership
discipline. Before you correct your employee
or your child or your spouse, stand in the gap
for them first. And there were three phrases,
and it just takes three minutes. But it can change
how you see and therefore how you relate and
behave. And I've put all of this into a one -page
guide that you can use tomorrow morning. It's
called Stand in the Gap. And I have it as a free
download for you. And so I encourage you to go
to mycatholicfaith .org and you'll be able to
click on that and download it. If you missed
yesterday's coaching hour, you can also access
it there on that page. So, Kerry, we were talking
about these five reasons, and those are very
much relevant for today. But if we take a look
at history, the biggest reason for magnetic revivals,
where people were coming to the church in great
droves, I don't see that quite as apparent today.
Because the number one thing is a word that we've
touched upon. It's the word holiness. We've talked
about majestic beauty, divine glory. And we can
even talk about a holy environment and an atmosphere.
And I think that that is having an impact today
for sure. But when it's embodied in a person,
the biggest difference is made. We're talking
about the lives of saints. And in this last segment,
we're going to focus in on the lives of saints
and the fundamental importance of reverence as
magnetic factors that we ought to be praying
about, thinking about, and seeing how the Lord
is at work. Reverence and supernatural, the supernatural
working of the Lord. You know what? I always
love that you do that. Seriously, you continually
talk about that. In fact, that's been one of
the things I've thought about regarding this
whole phenomenon is, oh, it's a move of God.
It's God who's doing it. It's God who's saying,
I'm taking over. I'm not waiting for the program,
the new movement, the new initiative, this new
activity stream. No, I'm taking the job in my
own hands, and people are just going to start
showing up. That's kind of the move of God side
of things. I think you were talking about it
in part from movements like Encounter. Is that
right? Or did you mean something else? I don't
know. I think when you're referring to holiness
and people that brought a lot of people into
faith and awakening and excitement because of
the miracles and the prophetic words like Padre
Pio, that that has not been seen right now. This
is more... There was an emptiness, a desolation,
a lack. People were hungering for more, and now
they're coming into a more conservative type
Catholic church or Anglican or Orthodox. That's
predominantly where people are going. And so
apart from the Holy Spirit or the empowerment
of the Lord and His grace, there's just this...
Okay, we've been around for thousands of years
and we've always had the sense of there's a supernatural,
there's a God, there's a creator. And in the
last 20 to 40 years, there's been this absence
and just busy on with life and on the phone and
kind of just living your own life self -centeredly.
So it obviously makes sense that people are coming
back around to, why am I here? What is the purpose
of this? Yeah, so there's an insight Pope Leo
XIV has. when he talks about the threat of AI
and the digital world, it's that it's a world
devoid of presence. And you can make that world
as compelling and as titillating and satisfying
and sensitizing in ways as possible, but it will
always lack presence. Even Zoom meetings and
FaceTime calls, you have a sense of connection.
but it's not as rich as being there. What about
our three girls? What are we going to do at Easter
for them? They're going to Ohio? They're going
to be with their four siblings at Franciscan
University to be in their presence. That makes
all the difference in the world. And I think
about that because life -changing, trajectory
-altering encounters with Jesus, happen in so
many different ways, right? In the scriptures,
in the Eucharist, but in the sacraments, it's
personal. But in the life of a saint, it's spectacular.
It's game -changing. And that has a quantification
that's very difficult to really control, right?
I'm reading that incredible book called Padre
Pio and You by Mary O 'Regan. I'm just getting
more and more of these stories and anecdotes
about the way that it was like God was his marketer.
He didn't say, hey, we got to get the word out.
I got the stigmata, right? Did you know how many
pilgrims they had? No. More than lords. Yeah,
that's... That's incredible. And it's a tiny
town in the middle of nowhere. Well, where is
it? Well, it's like Lourdes, a tiny town in the
middle of nowhere. That's like Fatima, a tiny
town in the middle of nowhere. That's like pretty
much most of the apparition sites. Well, the
most was Our Lady of Guadalupe. They had the
most pilgrimages. Well, you're in the middle
of Mexico City, okay? So you've got 30 million
people right there. You better have a lot. Oh,
I guess that's true. Well, how many? Did you
get the number? They said that they have, so
they built like 50 hotels in the mountain town
and they had a sanctuary that held 6 ,500 inside
and 30 ,000 outside. 6 ,500? Yeah. A church that
holds 6 ,500? It's huge. Yes. More than Lord,
7 million pilgrims a year. to Padre Pio's. That's
shocking. Have you ever heard of a pilgrimage
to San Giovanni Rotundo? I mean, maybe, maybe
once in a blue moon. Maybe the numbers are off.
No, no, that's striking that it is. You know
what I found out in this book too? You know who
his favorite people were? Americans. I have no
idea why. I'm not sure why we would be favored
people. I mean, maybe Italians were first, but
he always said he showed a real sense of affection
and endearment towards Americans. So imagine
someone like Padre Pio, born today, that is going
to magnify the Lord through their life. What
kind of phenomena that would be on social media,
on YouTube, on different platforms of someone
who's that? supernaturally gifted. Yeah, I can't
think of anyone that approaches that at all.
I think that if I said, I wouldn't say holiness,
but I would say erudition would be Bishop Robert
Barron. So Bishop Barron, he's so articulate
and he can bring out into the open the truths
of our faith in a very beautiful way. And has
a wonderful production team. Yeah, but people
are not going to him to be prayed with for healing
and miracles and prophetic words and reading
your soul. I'm talking like supernatural, not
just gifted humanly. We're talking St. John Vianney
level. The curia of ours, 16 hours in the confessional
a day, eating a couple of potatoes to live off
of. And they both had the devil just battling
them constantly. They still have in ours the...
bed that was on fire. The devil came and set
his bed on fire when he was in it. It's like,
come on, are you kidding me? But God used them
in so many powerful ways. St. John Paul II, I
think, is someone who had a holiness aspect to
him. And there are some miracles and all that,
but I look at the phenomenon of something like
World Youth Days and the way that World Youth
Days became these incredible gatherings. And
maybe that was a bit of the signal that is also
a reason why people are gathering in churches.
The 1 ,600 gathering or 1 ,000 gathering at a
mass in New York City. Well, you have 4 million
in Denver and 5 million, or a million in Denver
and 5 million in Manila. The largest gathering
in human history was when John Paul II went there
for World Youth Day. That's incredible. So, I
would say that he also is someone in our time,
Mother Teresa, a saint, but I'm not sure that
she had so much, like people coming back to church
and faith. So, the reality of a saint. I do think,
though, that just like the Lord heals through
saints, God also is at work through communities.
And there is a phenomenon today that has fostered
a degree of adherence to the faith and the practice
of the faith that is really impressive. Just
from pure statistics. We're not talking about
arguing. We're just talking about statistics.
And that is attendees of traditional Latin Masses.
We don't really go to traditional Latin Mass
here. We don't really have much opportunity to.
And even back in Spokane, we would go occasionally,
but it wasn't our standard practice. But the
statistics are compelling. Are you familiar with
some of the differences? We typically hear about
the statistics of what's the level of belief,
adherence and belief, of those who are self -identifying
Catholics going to Mass in a typical church.
It's pretty low. It's like 22%. are going to
Mass every week. So most are not going to Mass.
Yeah, those that are self -identifying as Catholics
are not going to Mass every week. Only 22 % are
going on a weekly basis. But if you go to a traditional
Latin Mass, it's 98%, 99%. That's pretty high.
And it just shows you that idea of, if you believe
it, live it. And then... In matters of things
like believing in the Eucharist, like 30 % believe
that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist.
I'm going to guess that the statistics is probably,
again, super high, 98, 99 % in those that are
going to traditional Latin Mass. Well, they also
said that only 10 % of those going today are
actually born and raised in the Latin Mass. So
90 % of young adults are finding their way. to
the Latin mass. They're kind of bypassing the
Novus Ordo and they're going right to the traditional
Latin or the Anglican or the Orthodox. So that's
a sign, right? That's an indicator there that's
worth like probing more. We don't have time to
do it today, but that's worth really thinking
about if you're like a church leader and you're
thinking, okay, if people are coming back to
faith and coming back to the church, where are
they ending up? And there's a meaningful percentage
that are ending up. They're finding their way.
to traditional latin mass masses and traditional
latin mass communities and so uh that that's
a that's a real phenomenon so carrie you wanted
to mention we only have just a minute left you
wanted to mention that tiktok influencer that
oh well i just thought people wanted to go check
it out themselves they can go on instagram and
i imagine facebook uh anthony gross or gross
is his last name if you want to go see him do
his little cute Catholic. Tours of churches.
In New York. That's what one of the viral. He
also said he wasn't eating for Lent. He was just
drinking. His fasting was just, I'm like, good
for you, man. Go for it. That was pretty cool.
Well, Carrie, thanks for walking with me through
this program. And folks, I hope you found this
to be insightful and makes you ponder, what's
the Lord up to? All right. God bless your day.
And join me on Monday where Father Kurt Nagel
and I will be talking about St. Patrick.