1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,840 Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Awaken Together podcast. 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:17,320 I'm Kat and today I'm joined with my husband Kyle and we're going to be talking about 3 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,880 the embodied masculine. 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,760 He has been committed to his path of healing and self-discovery for the past five years 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:30,800 and has picked up a thing or two on the pressures of masculinity and the benefits as well as 6 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,860 the hardships that has ensued from that. 7 00:00:33,860 --> 00:00:36,560 So without further ado, welcome Kyle! 8 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,960 Hello, hi everyone. 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,840 Hi, how are you? 10 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:42,840 I'm pretty good. 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:48,120 I'm a little nervous to be talking about this, but I think it's important so I agree 12 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:49,120 to be on. 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:50,120 Yeah, thank you. 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:56,320 You have so much to share on this subject and we're really lucky to have you. 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,280 You've taught me so much. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,920 So a couple of things that we're going to be covering today, we'll be talking about 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:10,760 the patriarchy, how it deserves not just women but all genders, we'll talk about toxic masculinity, 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,080 what the embodied masculine means, and lots, lots more. 19 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,840 And I realize that many of our listeners are women and there might be some topics that 20 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:25,840 we covered today that are initially triggering and I invite you to sit with that discomfort. 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:31,800 Hold it and keep listening because this stuff is really important and I share that because 22 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:37,880 really that's been my experience and while I'm comfy at first, I'm so glad I stuck with 23 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,800 it and listened because I've just learned so much. 24 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:47,400 So I want to begin by sharing that yes, being an able-bodied cisgendered white male is about 25 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:52,240 as lucky as it gets when it comes to hitting the privilege lottery. 26 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,240 Our conversation today does not deny that. 27 00:01:55,240 --> 00:02:01,120 Instead, one takeaway that we hope this episode leaves you with is how to be an ally for men 28 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:07,320 who are seeking to break ties with toxic masculine societal norms by owning their sensitivity 29 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,160 and vulnerability. 30 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,360 So Kyle, question for you. 31 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:19,260 When was the first time that you remember understanding what was expected of you rather 32 00:02:19,260 --> 00:02:23,960 than your sister because you were born a boy? 33 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:36,000 Yeah, so lots of times where I've noticed that, but I think the first time or one of 34 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,100 the first times, I don't know, I would say would just be noticing. 35 00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:46,640 So I have a sister, I have an older sister and I used to play with her toys a lot. 36 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:50,240 She had some, what were they? 37 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,440 My Little Ponies and those kinds of toys. 38 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,800 Easy Bake Ovens, all those feminine gendered toys. 39 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:05,800 And so I would play with them with her sometimes just even by myself too. 40 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,400 And she was also very into dancing. 41 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:13,320 She still is into dancing and I got interested in dancing as well. 42 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,880 And so I was just kind of like, I was enjoying those things and I had, it was nice having 43 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,520 this older role model to expose me to things. 44 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:30,680 But then I was pretty quickly kind of shamed out of playing with those toys too much and 45 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:39,120 out of dancing doing ballet or jazz dancing or I don't know, any of that stuff. 46 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:46,760 And it was really because of, I don't know, my parents, especially my dad, was afraid 47 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:54,120 that I would be gay or that I would be too feminine or I would be trans or something. 48 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,280 And as we all know under the patriarchy, that is framed as a terrible, those are all terrible 49 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,520 things to be. 50 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,560 And so I didn't understand that fully at the time. 51 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,480 I just knew that these things that I want to do and that I'm watching another person 52 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,600 do are not okay for me to do. 53 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,960 And I have to find some other way to exist. 54 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,420 And it was really confusing. 55 00:04:18,420 --> 00:04:23,360 But then I kind of gradually started figuring it out and started playing with Hot Wheels 56 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,760 cards and stuff instead. 57 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:31,920 And instead of getting into dancing, I got into playing guitar and doing the more masculine 58 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:32,920 stuff. 59 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,360 So I don't know, I could go on. 60 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:40,400 But that's, I think, some of the earliest memories of when I was learning that. 61 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,200 Yeah, and that's really hard. 62 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,680 Like, God, I'm sure you have so many examples of that. 63 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,080 I do too as a girl. 64 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,120 Growing up, I remember I was gifted dolls all the time. 65 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:57,400 And I was, I've always been a little rebellious, just in my nature. 66 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:02,520 And I remember when I was being gifted dolls, not wanting dolls, and just wanting to be 67 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,080 like, like Sporty Spice was my favorite Spice girl as a kid. 68 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,900 And I loved soccer and I always wore my hair in a ponytail. 69 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:16,120 And I remember the most mortifying moment for me growing up was my best friend's mom 70 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,100 being like, the girls, they're blossoming, aka they're growing boobs. 71 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:24,240 And I was like, oh my god, me and my best friend talked about this like all the time 72 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:25,240 still. 73 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,800 It's just like, how icky that was like, oh my god, yeah, we're growing up, we're getting 74 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:30,800 boobs. 75 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:31,800 I don't want to wear a bra. 76 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,680 And just like denying that denying that I'd ever have kids, which is so funny. 77 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,160 I think it's just because it was, I learned that's what was expected of me. 78 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:49,640 So all genders, we have this to some extent of like what we are expected to like, to enjoy, 79 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:50,680 to play with. 80 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,320 And it's kind of sad just how young that's ingrained in us. 81 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:55,320 Right? 82 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:56,320 Yeah. 83 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:57,320 Yeah, totally. 84 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:58,320 Yeah. 85 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,720 I was talking with Kyle recently about I was at a work happy hour. 86 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:10,200 And one of the guys he just had a baby and it was his second daughter. 87 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,960 And all the women at the table were asking like, oh, were you hoping for a boy? 88 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,280 You know, second kid. 89 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:19,960 You had a daughter, like, were you hoping for a boy? 90 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,800 And he was like, no, actually, we were hoping for another girl. 91 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,920 And they were like, huh, why? 92 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:26,920 That's interesting. 93 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,920 I haven't heard that before from a man. 94 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,720 Usually, you know, you want that father son bond from what they've heard. 95 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:39,800 And he was quick to say, well, yeah, but but girls are just nicer. 96 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:40,800 And that was his response. 97 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,760 And I was kind of taken aback because of everything that Kyle and I have talked about on this 98 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:52,320 subject, like the hardening, the conditioning of boys from such a young age that I was kind 99 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,240 of just like I felt the need to say something. 100 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,480 And all the other women were like, oh, yeah, so true. 101 00:06:58,480 --> 00:06:59,480 Like girls are so nice. 102 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,040 And, you know, it's nothing bad on them. 103 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,860 But they were a bit older, too. 104 00:07:04,860 --> 00:07:11,600 So here I am with like this millennial perspective being like, oh, well, I mean, have you ever 105 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:12,600 thought of it this way? 106 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:19,480 Like, girls are taught to be nicer and boys are taught that they need to be tough. 107 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:20,480 That's our dog. 108 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,560 They need to be tough. 109 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,840 And they can't be too nice or they're weak. 110 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:30,160 And how actually, if they have like a really enlightened father who's not teaching them 111 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:37,720 to be that way, the potential on society on women for a really just like, I want to say 112 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:43,480 awakened, but that feels weird for a little boy, but a boy who's kind and nice and sweet. 113 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:50,120 Like the potential for that on society, I feel like is so great compared to another 114 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,680 nice girl, which I'm not downplaying that either. 115 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,360 But I hope you know what I mean. 116 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:56,960 Does that make sense? 117 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:58,720 Yeah, yeah, I think so. 118 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,200 And like, it makes me think of one great, really great book that I just listened to 119 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,240 in this space by Liz Plank. 120 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,480 She's a prominent feminist. 121 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,360 It's called For the Love of Men, but she actually kind of talks about this a little bit. 122 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:17,160 And it really struck me how it's even in it. 123 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:23,920 That can start even in like pre verbal stages of babies where there are actual like parenting 124 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:31,320 strategies that are unfortunately pretty popular, where you're not supposed to hug your boy 125 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:39,360 babies, your male babies as much as the female babies and in that conditioning starts from 126 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:46,040 yeah before the baby is even verbal in these cases where male babies are learning you don't 127 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:51,040 deserve this emotional vulnerability, you don't deserve the support, you need to be 128 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,280 more self sufficient. 129 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,520 And it's crazy how early that frantic starts. 130 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:03,120 Yeah, and that kind of makes me think about how when you were just starting your healing 131 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:09,880 journey, seeing a therapist five years ago, pretty much exactly now, just kind of crazy. 132 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:15,360 How one of the big things that you were learning is how much you had suppressed your feelings 133 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,120 and your emotions. 134 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:22,720 And I mean, just thinking about that, it seems like kind of a direct link of how you're raised 135 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,160 as a boy in this society to suppress all of that and just not feel it. 136 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,200 So that's wild. 137 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,240 Yeah, yeah, totally. 138 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:37,120 And it is insane how bad of a mental place I got into before I was even willing to like 139 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,560 ask for help or even open up to you about anything. 140 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:44,160 I mean, I think we we both knew that I was very depressed. 141 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,000 And I was having some really difficult mental health issues. 142 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,640 But I don't know, it felt like an elephant in the room. 143 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,200 It didn't even in hindsight, it feels like an elephant in the room at the time. 144 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:59,640 I literally thought I could like work myself through it or like power through it. 145 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:06,200 And I up until I knew I couldn't and just got like severely depressed. 146 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,160 And I mean, it's kind of a sense of topic. 147 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,200 I don't know if you want to talk about the podcast, but I was getting suicidal. 148 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:20,880 And it took getting to that level of just feeling so terrible in order for me to like 149 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,000 just say, hey, I need help. 150 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,400 Like that was not an option up until that point, to the point where I was like, OK, 151 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,680 the other option is die. 152 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:36,000 And that's how powerfully ingrained it was for me to do the man thing and try to figure 153 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:41,560 it out myself and not be vulnerable, not talking about my feelings, not do any of that stuff. 154 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:48,120 And I so admire like you being you're so willing to share that, you know, and I think you've 155 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:55,000 come so far in just being able to sit with that and share that with the public on a podcast 156 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,000 like this right now. 157 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,800 And you're the first one out of our group of friends to speak up about mental health 158 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,000 because you've been through the wringer and out the other side. 159 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:10,100 And it takes someone who's really been in the pits to be able to extend that hand to 160 00:11:10,100 --> 00:11:12,600 anybody else who's there, too. 161 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:13,600 So thank you. 162 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:14,600 Yeah, thank you. 163 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:21,320 And I know there's so many other people, so many other guys and not guys who are in the 164 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:22,320 same situation. 165 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,440 And it needs to be talked about more. 166 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:25,680 I'm convinced of that. 167 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:28,160 And so it's uncomfortable for me to talk about it. 168 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,000 But I think it's more important than it is uncomfortable. 169 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,000 Absolutely. 170 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,320 Well, let's talk about the elephant in the room. 171 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,320 You're wearing an elephant on your shirt right now. 172 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,480 I'm just looking at it as I say that. 173 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,280 But the elephant in the room, the patriarchy dun dun dun. 174 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:53,600 How does the patriarchy, in your opinion, perpetuate all of this? 175 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:54,600 Gosh. 176 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:55,600 All right. 177 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,600 We got an hour for this. 178 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:05,880 No, I think I'll try to sum it up concisely. 179 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,760 How does the patriarchy play into all of this? 180 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:13,560 So I think the patriarchy is a system that affects all people. 181 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:23,800 And depending on your gender or your perceived gender by society, it affects you very differently. 182 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:31,880 It forces you into an impossibly close small box that no actual human really fits into. 183 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,120 And it does this to women. 184 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,120 It does it to men. 185 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,560 It does it to trans, non-binary folks, everyone. 186 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:42,080 And it does it differently. 187 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:47,200 And so I think the patriarchy, I mean, yeah, most listeners are women. 188 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,840 So this is probably not a surprise to anyone listening. 189 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:55,680 But the typical ways of the patriarchy affects women, being considered second class citizens 190 00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:01,880 in a lot of ways and not getting paid appropriately and not getting the recognition for motherhood 191 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:07,840 and all sorts of stuff like that, not taken seriously in the workplace. 192 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,240 And you could go on and on. 193 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:16,520 And then the same system has expectations of men that definitely puts them in a position 194 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:22,400 of privilege in a lot of ways, but also is very detrimental and hurtful in a lot of other 195 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:23,400 ways too. 196 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:28,480 And that includes kind of saying a lot of things that are just very true for any human, 197 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,040 regardless of your gender, has no place as a man. 198 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:37,160 So like you're asking for help if you do that, you are less of a man and therefore less of 199 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,280 a person. 200 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:49,120 If you express vulnerability or sadness or all sorts of nuanced feelings that isn't deemed 201 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:56,200 manly, then you are less of a person as well and rejected by your own kind. 202 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:01,280 And then at the same time, there are other things that you need to be, even if you aren't 203 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:02,280 actually that. 204 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:07,200 You need to be big and strong and you need to be confident and you need to be a leader, 205 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,000 even if that absolutely terrifies you. 206 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:17,960 You have no choice if you want to be accepted by people, or at least this is what boys and 207 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,040 men learn under the patriarchy. 208 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:26,480 And so that can be really hard to deal with for anyone. 209 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:31,280 And I don't know, I could go on, but that's kind of like the man box that you're kind 210 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:37,880 of put into if you're born as a male, regardless of your actual gender. 211 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:38,880 Yeah. 212 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:46,520 And that makes me think about how much more violence is done by men, how much more homicide, 213 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:52,680 how many more serial killers, like all the darkness basically and harm that we see in 214 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,440 society is really caused by so many men. 215 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,520 And it's no mystery now that we're talking about all of this into like the conditioning 216 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:10,200 of boys and men where you feel like you need to be all these certain ways just to be accepted, 217 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:15,440 teaching you that you are innately wrong if you don't fit into this really rigid mold 218 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:20,560 that society has put out for the male archetype. 219 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:27,440 So with that, Kyle and I have had some pretty testy conversations around masculine and feminine 220 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:28,760 energies. 221 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,400 And I think that Kyle has a lot of valid points. 222 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,120 And so this is his take. 223 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,120 I want to be clear to share. 224 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,120 This is Kyle's take. 225 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:39,120 You're inviting me to say this. 226 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,120 Okay. 227 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:41,120 I'm actually inviting you to say this. 228 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,120 Nice. 229 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,120 All right. 230 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,120 I'll take it. 231 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,600 I think, yeah, I don't know. 232 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,960 You brought up a good point about like violence and how that's tied to masculinity. 233 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:53,960 I think that's a great point. 234 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,000 But I can talk about this first. 235 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,960 So yeah, I guess my take on, yeah, a lot of times you'll hear this thing is masculine 236 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:08,400 or this thing is feminine or using masculine and feminine as descriptive words. 237 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,240 And I personally, my take is that I don't like using those at all. 238 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,040 I don't like saying masculine and feminine very much. 239 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,360 And it's because I'd rather just say the qualities themselves. 240 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:28,520 Because there are tons of people who are very nurturing and caring and great caretakers. 241 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:33,480 That doesn't make them feminine because that's not, I don't think that's inherently something 242 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:40,040 that women are like that they have to do or that that is a thing for women. 243 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:46,800 I think and on the flip side, like if you want if you're big and strong and confident, 244 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,880 like then you're big and strong and confident. 245 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,880 Like that is not territory that makes you a man that makes you masculine. 246 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,080 It's just a quality of a human. 247 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:04,660 And I think these we've, in my opinion, arbitrarily tied a lot of these things to gender. 248 00:17:04,660 --> 00:17:14,000 And I think under the patriarchy that is weaponized against all genders really to foster insecurity 249 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:19,760 and as a work as a system of oppression for everyone in different ways. 250 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,880 And so what do you suggest instead of saying masculine feminine energies? 251 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,280 What do you suggest we say instead? 252 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,160 Like I would just say use the use the more specific words. 253 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:39,160 Like what is it if something is like, I don't know if you're referring to something that 254 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:47,440 is a masculine energy, just say the thing that is it is actually like, do you understand? 255 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:48,920 Like give us an example. 256 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:56,960 So like, I don't know if if I have a conversation with someone and they just seem very like 257 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,120 confident, they know all the answers. 258 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:05,960 And they're like a go getter, they make a ton of money and they're just they got it 259 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,000 figured out. 260 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,720 You might say like, oh, that person has a lot of masculine energy to them. 261 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,000 I wouldn't want to say that. 262 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,840 I would just say that they seem very confident and they seem like they're doing well at 263 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:24,480 work and they got a path that they're figuring out and they're doing it. 264 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,380 And that's awesome. 265 00:18:26,380 --> 00:18:32,000 It feels arbitrary to assign that to a masculine thing or a feminine thing. 266 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,840 Because to your point, doing so perpetuates the patriarchy. 267 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:38,840 Right? 268 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:39,840 Yeah. 269 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:40,840 Right? 270 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:47,800 That's that's the part where I can like get behind you because I'm like, shit, he's right. 271 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:54,160 Because why would confidence and exuding this like go getter and achieverness not be feminine? 272 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,440 Right, like the feminist in me can totally get behind that. 273 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:58,800 So thank you for that. 274 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,760 And I think that's Kyle, you are a feminist. 275 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,800 And I love that about you. 276 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:11,680 And if you weren't, I don't know, we wouldn't have nearly as interesting conversations. 277 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:21,160 And to tie it back to astrology for just a momento, Kyle has an Aquarius moon and his 278 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:28,920 Aquarius moon and my Aquarius son, we just connect on this deep, like rebellious leader 279 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:29,920 way. 280 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,760 So so thank you for seeing me there. 281 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:33,760 Yeah. 282 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:34,760 Yeah. 283 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,320 And thanks for being open to the conversations too. 284 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,480 I know. 285 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:45,120 I can't tell you guys like how many times we've had arguments about this conversation because 286 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:46,360 because that's what I've been taught. 287 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:49,920 That's what I hear of like masculine, feminine. 288 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,280 But I think that I think just having that extra layer of like explaining what we mean 289 00:19:54,280 --> 00:20:01,600 by that of like, instead of masculine, I'm going to say solar energy instead of feminine, 290 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,480 I'm going to use lunar because I think that's a way that takes gender out of the equation, 291 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,520 but still gets the same points across. 292 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,440 So there's different ways to do it without misgendering. 293 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:17,220 I think it's even for me personally, I think it's fine to say like, qualities associated 294 00:20:17,220 --> 00:20:22,720 with masculinity or qualities associated with femininity to make it clear that we are the 295 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,920 humans are the ones that are deciding that this is masculine or feminine. 296 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,640 It's not this biological thing. 297 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:35,320 Like I don't know, I haven't seen any biological logical proof of any of those qualities. 298 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:42,200 So I'm on the I like science and I press science. 299 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,880 Show me show me evidence for that and then I'll change my mind. 300 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,320 I love it. 301 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:57,240 So so with all of this being said, I think it's pretty clear to me when I meet a man 302 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,960 and we're in a deep conversation, it becomes pretty clear to me pretty early on whether 303 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:09,120 or not they've done work on softness on feeling their feelings on expressing themselves because 304 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:14,400 there's a whole level of vulnerability and just being able to like, I don't know, meet 305 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:22,160 the person where they are without being in the ego that that becomes clear to me like, 306 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,320 okay, this is a guy who gets it. 307 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:30,080 This is a guy who understands like where I'm coming from and can kind of be with me and 308 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,840 this and this point. 309 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,320 And I feel like you are one of those guys. 310 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,280 I mean, clearly, like you have done this work and you're still doing it. 311 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,760 But you also get along with women really easily. 312 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,120 Yeah, I do. 313 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,200 And I think that is partially because you have an older sister. 314 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:55,080 Side note, I have a theory that guys with older sisters just get along with women easier, 315 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,400 which like, yeah, that's your role model. 316 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:04,480 But with a woman as a role model, I think that also makes you treat women differently 317 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:12,080 and see them as more equal than if, let's say, a boy who had older brothers and no sisters, 318 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,280 you know, call me biased. 319 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,000 This is just my learned experience. 320 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,280 I have a little brother and he's also really good with women and growing up had mostly 321 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,840 girlfriends. 322 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,960 So yeah, I think there's something to be said about that too. 323 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:25,960 Yeah. 324 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:26,960 Yeah, you agree? 325 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,280 Yeah, I wouldn't be I wouldn't be surprised. 326 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:31,280 Yeah. 327 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:40,440 Yeah, I think I think definitely having a older role model who is a girl or woman definitely 328 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:47,680 helped me kind of have more respect for that that side of things. 329 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:53,000 Even though I did get very deeply into like masculinity and definitely some toxic stuff. 330 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,840 But I don't know, can I go on a tangent about toxic masculinity as a phrase? 331 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:57,840 Please, please. 332 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,600 I was hoping you would. 333 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,040 Yeah, that just made me think of the phrase because I said it toxic masculinity. 334 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:12,200 I don't like that phrase, and it's it's the reason I don't like that phrase is because 335 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:18,960 I think to the men and I'm saying this from my own personal perspective, too, before I 336 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,320 started working on my own stuff much. 337 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:27,480 But I think to men who really need to hear this message, the phrase toxic masculinity, 338 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,600 I think will be a huge turnoff to them. 339 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:37,840 I think it's very easy to make the false assumption that it's it's saying everything that is associated 340 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:44,240 with masculinity is toxic and we need to turn everyone into genderless people. 341 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,600 And I think that's when you like these. 342 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:47,600 I don't know. 343 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,800 We I feel we probably all know that type of person person thinking one of your friends 344 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,800 right now. 345 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:55,800 Yeah. 346 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,840 And and so I don't like using that phrase because I think it pushes them away when I 347 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,120 would say they need the message more than anyone. 348 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:07,640 And so I try to just refer to it as the patriarchy. 349 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:13,880 And I think that pulls it back to how it's really just one big system that we're all 350 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,040 kind of forced into different positions with. 351 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,040 Yeah. 352 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,040 Yeah. 353 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:24,240 So there's like the toxic masculine, which is one area of the spectrum that we can see 354 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,160 in our minds, and maybe we don't call it that when we're talking about it. 355 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,360 But and then on the other end is the embodied masculine. 356 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:38,200 And that's the person who has really sat with their gender, their masculinity in this case 357 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:44,280 and questioned like what parts of my personality are actually true to me and what parts of 358 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:50,840 my personality have I learned in order to fit in in order to be accepted by society 359 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:56,120 as the sex that I am and that I present as. 360 00:24:56,120 --> 00:25:05,640 So with that toxic masculinity, man, I'm thinking about this friend of yours. 361 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,560 We won't name him, but I feel like you loosely call him a friend now because he's grown in 362 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:11,560 different directions. 363 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:17,200 I would still call him a friend, which blows my mind. 364 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,560 He is he very much subscribes to masculine culture and masculinity. 365 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:30,120 And when you talk with him about therapy, about things that he deems as feminine and 366 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:35,840 weak and soft, he is the first one to jump at you and call you that. 367 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:36,840 Call you gay. 368 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:42,440 Call you like we low T low T. That's a favorite. 369 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,800 Yeah, that's the one that comes up. 370 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:45,800 Yeah. 371 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:46,800 Why do you think he does that? 372 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,760 I mean, the patriarchy, he's still he's in it. 373 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,000 He's deep in it. 374 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,400 And it's it's all he's known. 375 00:25:54,400 --> 00:26:00,160 It's and yeah, he's just threatened. 376 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,840 I I don't think he. 377 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,520 Let me think. 378 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:14,840 I think there is of regardless of if if he realizes it or any guy realizes it, I think 379 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:23,520 the idea of people being openly like like gender nonconforming or are just open and 380 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:31,520 true to themselves where it doesn't fit into that tight, tiny masculinity definition. 381 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:40,160 I think there there's discomfort there because these I think these people know that there's 382 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:46,800 some of that within themselves and they have been I would say brainwashed to think that 383 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:51,920 that is so deeply not OK that it needs to never see the light of day. 384 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,360 They never can express it. 385 00:26:53,360 --> 00:27:00,640 And so when they see people expressing that and it's been framed so as such a bad thing 386 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:06,200 to them, that that makes them uncomfortable because they know that that is within them 387 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,200 as well. 388 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,800 And they're they're pushing that away. 389 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,920 And I don't think that's a conscious thing. 390 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,240 I think that's just like an unconscious thing that they just maybe just feel uneasy and 391 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,160 they don't know what to do with that, because that's another that's another thing with 392 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:24,720 with boys and men is that a lot a lot of us are brought up completely like dissociated 393 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,040 from our emotions and where we never learn how to truly understand our emotions and listen 394 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,040 to them. 395 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:36,680 And so sometimes we'll like we'll be feeling something like that and we have no idea where 396 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:37,680 it's coming from. 397 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,800 And I think that's I mean, that'll happen to anyone, I think. 398 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:46,040 But it's especially common for for men who are deeply in the patriarchy. 399 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,600 And it has been for me when I was. 400 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:51,600 And I don't know. 401 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,320 This is another tangent coming up. 402 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,960 But I feel like I want to just talk on one point that you brought up. 403 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,160 And I'll set you free in your next tangent. 404 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:01,160 Yeah. 405 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:10,400 But I loved what you said about how how historically it hasn't been OK for people of the last generation 406 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:16,600 to embrace themselves wholeheartedly like our generation has been given permission to 407 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,400 do. 408 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:26,160 And like that example of seeing somebody, you know, queer and open and living in their 409 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,800 gender in the way that they feel like expressing it. 410 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,640 That's true to them. 411 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,840 One person in the last generation or even this one may have been taught that that's 412 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,800 wrong, that that's not OK. 413 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,760 So when they see someone living in their truth, there's an alarm going off in their head of 414 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,300 like this is wrong. 415 00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:43,560 This is not OK. 416 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:49,160 This person is living in a way that I have been told is wrong and they're doing it. 417 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,560 So I have to do something about it. 418 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,760 So I have to tell them that, no, that's wrong. 419 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:54,760 That's not OK. 420 00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:00,240 When like, wow, what a responsibility they're running around and living their lives with. 421 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,440 Why can't they just live the way that makes them happy? 422 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,800 And it's just like so not what they've been taught and not what they're used to. 423 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:14,900 And I think it takes really brave people to go out and educate themselves and just kind 424 00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:18,880 of fall on their sword a little bit and say, I've been wrong. 425 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,760 I think the reason why they can't just live and be happy and just move on is because the 426 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,680 patriarchy has stolen that from them. 427 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:33,040 And I think that is that is the most difficult part of the patriarchy as a guy. 428 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:40,640 I've heard it framed as like emotional incarceration, where you you are you have your inner emotions 429 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:46,360 and your deepest level of yourself and who you are stolen from you at such a young age. 430 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:51,840 And you are never taught the language, the emotional language to figure it out and understand 431 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:52,840 it. 432 00:29:52,840 --> 00:30:00,800 So it's it's really difficult for for any guy to move past that at all, I think. 433 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,900 And and I mean, like I was saying earlier, that's why I had to get to such a terrible 434 00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:07,880 place before I did anything. 435 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,640 And I don't think that's uncommon at all. 436 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:17,200 I think that also ties back into what we briefly touched upon earlier is how much like the 437 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:23,960 vast majority of of homicide is committed by men and in most the vast majority of the 438 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,640 victims are also men. 439 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:33,800 And in why, you know, like the suicide rate is higher among men and how a lot of I mean, 440 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,400 radicalized groups, white supremacy and and, you know, groups like that. 441 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,560 I mean, the vast majority of it are men. 442 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:47,080 And I think the reason for that is you can you can look at you can read testimonials 443 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:52,520 from from prominent people who have gotten out of hate groups like that. 444 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:58,100 And the answer, as far as I've seen, is always that they made they gave they made them feel 445 00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:01,480 like they belonged and they made them feel safe. 446 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,540 And I think so many so many people. 447 00:31:05,540 --> 00:31:12,080 But in this sense, from like an emotional sense, so many guys are grow up and they don't 448 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,080 have that safety. 449 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,840 And, you know, they're we're we're taught to posture like we're confident we got to 450 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,120 figure it out. 451 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:25,900 But on the inside, we just need someone to be there for us and we can't ask for it. 452 00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:31,920 And so I think that's when those those radicalization groups can step in and get these vulnerable 453 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,680 young men to do terrible, terrible things. 454 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,600 And it's all just coming from a place of like wanting wanting to belong. 455 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:42,600 Yeah. 456 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:43,600 Yeah. 457 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,120 And not understanding that how to health do it in a healthy way. 458 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,120 Yeah. 459 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,120 Yeah. 460 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:51,120 It's such a great point. 461 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,480 And it's scary, too. 462 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,240 And it's really sad. 463 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:01,880 I think at the basis of it, like we all need to come together because there's no way that 464 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:10,000 this problem, the systemic issue is going to be fixed unless we address this. 465 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,320 So I mean, basically, the secret to world peace is healing the wounds of the patriarchy 466 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:20,440 and that everything that it instills, it's like this week, if we zoom out, it's like 467 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:21,880 the world leaders. 468 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,880 Most of them are men still, unfortunately. 469 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,240 And there's war and there's hate. 470 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:28,780 And and yeah. 471 00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:35,480 So Kyle, what are your tips for men who are interested in connecting with themselves and 472 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,560 others on a deeper level than they've been taught initially? 473 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:40,560 Yeah. 474 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,360 And what are my tips? 475 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:56,680 I think I would say I think compassion is the absolute key thing to all of this. 476 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:02,200 And that includes self-compassion for men, especially self-compassion, compassion for 477 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,920 others. 478 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:13,480 And in having that space to say, I'm feeling this thing, I feel like I need to cry and 479 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,080 get a hug from my friend and just trying it. 480 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,080 Or you don't even have to try that. 481 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:21,360 Take a little tiny step. 482 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,800 Tell your friend that you're feeling sad and that you feel like you need to talk to someone. 483 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,840 If they're a good friend, they're going to be there for you. 484 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:36,080 And if they call you a pussy and tell you to go fuck off, then I mean, it's that's 485 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:37,440 probably not a great friend. 486 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:38,880 And not a safe person. 487 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:39,880 Yeah. 488 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:40,880 Yeah. 489 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:46,000 So it's yeah, it's finding safe people who are willing to give you that compassion that 490 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,680 you deserve. 491 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,840 And I think I don't know. 492 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,040 That goes to women, too. 493 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,240 I know this is like most women listen to this podcast. 494 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:03,400 For me personally, I have also received the same kind of shame that I have from other 495 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,040 men for not being masculine enough. 496 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,680 I've received that from women and girls when I was younger. 497 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:16,120 And it can be spread by anyone of any gender. 498 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:21,200 And so I think it's good for everyone to really think about like, am I perpetuating this? 499 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:26,280 Am I am I am I put it setting up expectations that are unhealthy? 500 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,360 I mean, to piggyback on that for a sec. 501 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,320 I remember I was in my last corporate job. 502 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,560 I worked with a woman who I specifically remember that stuck with me. 503 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,680 Like she was single for a really long time. 504 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:46,160 And whenever she like what data guy she felt like she would self sabotage it. 505 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,280 And then I remember one thing she told me. 506 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,800 I was like, what do you think it is? 507 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,800 She's like, I don't know, one thing this last guy was really great, but he was just so emotional. 508 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,360 And I saw him cry. 509 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:57,800 And that was like a no for me. 510 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:03,400 And I was just like, oh, like, it hurts me to hear that. 511 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,400 Yeah. 512 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,400 Yeah. 513 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:06,400 Yeah. 514 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,680 That perpetuates literally everything we just talked about. 515 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:10,680 Yeah. 516 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,120 It's like that is her ingrained by the patriarchy. 517 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,600 And it just perpetuates this behavior. 518 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,320 Because if you're shutting down a man for crying, for being sensitive, you're drilling that 519 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,200 in even deeper that that's not OK. 520 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:25,200 Right. 521 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,480 Yeah, totally. 522 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:31,400 And I'll just add on to that, that like also like women like in men, any men listen to 523 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,520 this like like your partner is they're not your therapist. 524 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,120 Like it's not their job to figure out all your stuff and hold the weight of all of your 525 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:41,120 stuff. 526 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,520 And women, it's not your job to I mean, you probably don't need me to tell you this, but 527 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,280 it's not your job to to have like a therapist role. 528 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:52,640 But everyone does need support. 529 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:59,320 And so it's important to have compassion and boundaries, I think, on both both sides of 530 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:00,960 a heteronormative relationship. 531 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:07,640 No, it's a really good point of like one person can't give you everything you need. 532 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,120 They can't meet your needs. 533 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,120 You need a support system. 534 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,120 You need a support system. 535 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,760 So find your support system. 536 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,240 Yeah, totally. 537 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:15,760 Yeah. 538 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,440 Yeah. 539 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,240 And I want to give it I think we're at the end, but I want to give some shout outs to 540 00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:26,080 just some some other resources that I've I've listened to and read that I think are really, 541 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,680 really great for me. 542 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,680 One my favorite thing is the pot is another podcast. 543 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:36,520 It's called the man enough podcast with Liz Plank mentioned earlier, Justin Baldoni and 544 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,480 Jamie Heath are the hosts. 545 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,920 It's really incredible conversations. 546 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,480 I second that we've listened to them together. 547 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,840 Yeah, about masculinity in there. 548 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:52,600 So many awesome episodes that has helped me so much to hear other men talking about these 549 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,440 issues in a very constructive way. 550 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:01,880 And I would recommend any guy, any person, especially men, but any person to check that 551 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,800 out and hear the conversations they're talking about there. 552 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,640 And then one audio book, our regular book that we listened to on a road trip a couple 553 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:10,640 years back. 554 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,400 What was it called again? 555 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,620 That was called The Man They Wanted Me To Be by Jared Yates Sexton. 556 00:37:16,620 --> 00:37:18,520 So that one that one really spoke to me. 557 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:23,080 That one that one is is talking kind of about his experience growing up in that and the 558 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,760 expectations around masculinity. 559 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:33,080 And and he actually he did a good job of connecting it to kind of like like politics and more 560 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,320 sociological systems as well and as well as some history. 561 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:38,320 That was a good one. 562 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:39,320 Yeah. 563 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:46,360 And I think a tip that I have for any anyone who's in a relationship with a man and a woman 564 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:52,960 or anyone who identifies in that way, I highly recommend like if you're ever in a place where 565 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,520 you can listen to an audio book for a long time, whether it's a road trip or if it's 566 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,880 just something you do together in the car, like highly recommend listening to that book, 567 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:09,440 The Man They Wanted Me To Be and have like your male partner kind of share their take 568 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:16,880 and little like moments of them growing up where that resonated for them and also play 569 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,400 Untamed by Glennon Doyle. 570 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:25,200 This was like the other side of things for Kyle to hear about like the women's experience 571 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:32,480 and how from a young age we are told to be small, to fit into this little box. And again, 572 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:38,680 it's the patriarchy on the other side telling us to be this way. So it's just really interesting 573 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:46,520 productive conversations to share from both perspectives to main heteronormative ones. 574 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,720 But yeah, interesting stuff. 575 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:50,720 Yeah. 576 00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:59,680 Well, thank you, my love. This was fun. Thanks for sharing your light and your wisdom and 577 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,280 thank you all for listening. 578 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:08,080 Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me to let me get on my soapbox and I'm still learning. 579 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:13,480 So maybe a year from now I'll change my mind from some of the stuff I said, but this is 580 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:14,480 where I'm at. 581 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,840 Yeah, it's all valid. It's where we all are at right now. We've got to meet ourselves 582 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:24,320 there. So thank you. Thank you so much everybody for listening. We'd love to hear your feedback, 583 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:29,000 your takeaways. Hopefully this planted some seeds for you to just think of things maybe 584 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,760 in a little bit of a different way and spark some conversations for people who are safe 585 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:38,400 to you to go deeper on the topics and yeah, just see where it takes you. So thank you. 586 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:49,400 Love you all so much and we'll see you next week.