Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Awaken Together podcast.
I'm Kat and today I'm joined with my husband Kyle and we're going to be talking about
the embodied masculine.
He has been committed to his path of healing and self-discovery for the past five years
and has picked up a thing or two on the pressures of masculinity and the benefits as well as
the hardships that has ensued from that.
So without further ado, welcome Kyle!
Hello, hi everyone.
Hi, how are you?
I'm pretty good.
I'm a little nervous to be talking about this, but I think it's important so I agree
to be on.
Yeah, thank you.
You have so much to share on this subject and we're really lucky to have you.
You've taught me so much.
So a couple of things that we're going to be covering today, we'll be talking about
the patriarchy, how it deserves not just women but all genders, we'll talk about toxic masculinity,
what the embodied masculine means, and lots, lots more.
And I realize that many of our listeners are women and there might be some topics that
we covered today that are initially triggering and I invite you to sit with that discomfort.
Hold it and keep listening because this stuff is really important and I share that because
really that's been my experience and while I'm comfy at first, I'm so glad I stuck with
it and listened because I've just learned so much.
So I want to begin by sharing that yes, being an able-bodied cisgendered white male is about
as lucky as it gets when it comes to hitting the privilege lottery.
Our conversation today does not deny that.
Instead, one takeaway that we hope this episode leaves you with is how to be an ally for men
who are seeking to break ties with toxic masculine societal norms by owning their sensitivity
and vulnerability.
So Kyle, question for you.
When was the first time that you remember understanding what was expected of you rather
than your sister because you were born a boy?
Yeah, so lots of times where I've noticed that, but I think the first time or one of
the first times, I don't know, I would say would just be noticing.
So I have a sister, I have an older sister and I used to play with her toys a lot.
She had some, what were they?
My Little Ponies and those kinds of toys.
Easy Bake Ovens, all those feminine gendered toys.
And so I would play with them with her sometimes just even by myself too.
And she was also very into dancing.
She still is into dancing and I got interested in dancing as well.
And so I was just kind of like, I was enjoying those things and I had, it was nice having
this older role model to expose me to things.
But then I was pretty quickly kind of shamed out of playing with those toys too much and
out of dancing doing ballet or jazz dancing or I don't know, any of that stuff.
And it was really because of, I don't know, my parents, especially my dad, was afraid
that I would be gay or that I would be too feminine or I would be trans or something.
And as we all know under the patriarchy, that is framed as a terrible, those are all terrible
things to be.
And so I didn't understand that fully at the time.
I just knew that these things that I want to do and that I'm watching another person
do are not okay for me to do.
And I have to find some other way to exist.
And it was really confusing.
But then I kind of gradually started figuring it out and started playing with Hot Wheels
cards and stuff instead.
And instead of getting into dancing, I got into playing guitar and doing the more masculine
stuff.
So I don't know, I could go on.
But that's, I think, some of the earliest memories of when I was learning that.
Yeah, and that's really hard.
Like, God, I'm sure you have so many examples of that.
I do too as a girl.
Growing up, I remember I was gifted dolls all the time.
And I was, I've always been a little rebellious, just in my nature.
And I remember when I was being gifted dolls, not wanting dolls, and just wanting to be
like, like Sporty Spice was my favorite Spice girl as a kid.
And I loved soccer and I always wore my hair in a ponytail.
And I remember the most mortifying moment for me growing up was my best friend's mom
being like, the girls, they're blossoming, aka they're growing boobs.
And I was like, oh my god, me and my best friend talked about this like all the time
still.
It's just like, how icky that was like, oh my god, yeah, we're growing up, we're getting
boobs.
I don't want to wear a bra.
And just like denying that denying that I'd ever have kids, which is so funny.
I think it's just because it was, I learned that's what was expected of me.
So all genders, we have this to some extent of like what we are expected to like, to enjoy,
to play with.
And it's kind of sad just how young that's ingrained in us.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I was talking with Kyle recently about I was at a work happy hour.
And one of the guys he just had a baby and it was his second daughter.
And all the women at the table were asking like, oh, were you hoping for a boy?
You know, second kid.
You had a daughter, like, were you hoping for a boy?
And he was like, no, actually, we were hoping for another girl.
And they were like, huh, why?
That's interesting.
I haven't heard that before from a man.
Usually, you know, you want that father son bond from what they've heard.
And he was quick to say, well, yeah, but but girls are just nicer.
And that was his response.
And I was kind of taken aback because of everything that Kyle and I have talked about on this
subject, like the hardening, the conditioning of boys from such a young age that I was kind
of just like I felt the need to say something.
And all the other women were like, oh, yeah, so true.
Like girls are so nice.
And, you know, it's nothing bad on them.
But they were a bit older, too.
So here I am with like this millennial perspective being like, oh, well, I mean, have you ever
thought of it this way?
Like, girls are taught to be nicer and boys are taught that they need to be tough.
That's our dog.
They need to be tough.
And they can't be too nice or they're weak.
And how actually, if they have like a really enlightened father who's not teaching them
to be that way, the potential on society on women for a really just like, I want to say
awakened, but that feels weird for a little boy, but a boy who's kind and nice and sweet.
Like the potential for that on society, I feel like is so great compared to another
nice girl, which I'm not downplaying that either.
But I hope you know what I mean.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
And like, it makes me think of one great, really great book that I just listened to
in this space by Liz Plank.
She's a prominent feminist.
It's called For the Love of Men, but she actually kind of talks about this a little bit.
And it really struck me how it's even in it.
That can start even in like pre verbal stages of babies where there are actual like parenting
strategies that are unfortunately pretty popular, where you're not supposed to hug your boy
babies, your male babies as much as the female babies and in that conditioning starts from
yeah before the baby is even verbal in these cases where male babies are learning you don't
deserve this emotional vulnerability, you don't deserve the support, you need to be
more self sufficient.
And it's crazy how early that frantic starts.
Yeah, and that kind of makes me think about how when you were just starting your healing
journey, seeing a therapist five years ago, pretty much exactly now, just kind of crazy.
How one of the big things that you were learning is how much you had suppressed your feelings
and your emotions.
And I mean, just thinking about that, it seems like kind of a direct link of how you're raised
as a boy in this society to suppress all of that and just not feel it.
So that's wild.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
And it is insane how bad of a mental place I got into before I was even willing to like
ask for help or even open up to you about anything.
I mean, I think we we both knew that I was very depressed.
And I was having some really difficult mental health issues.
But I don't know, it felt like an elephant in the room.
It didn't even in hindsight, it feels like an elephant in the room at the time.
I literally thought I could like work myself through it or like power through it.
And I up until I knew I couldn't and just got like severely depressed.
And I mean, it's kind of a sense of topic.
I don't know if you want to talk about the podcast, but I was getting suicidal.
And it took getting to that level of just feeling so terrible in order for me to like
just say, hey, I need help.
Like that was not an option up until that point, to the point where I was like, OK,
the other option is die.
And that's how powerfully ingrained it was for me to do the man thing and try to figure
it out myself and not be vulnerable, not talking about my feelings, not do any of that stuff.
And I so admire like you being you're so willing to share that, you know, and I think you've
come so far in just being able to sit with that and share that with the public on a podcast
like this right now.
And you're the first one out of our group of friends to speak up about mental health
because you've been through the wringer and out the other side.
And it takes someone who's really been in the pits to be able to extend that hand to
anybody else who's there, too.
So thank you.
Yeah, thank you.
And I know there's so many other people, so many other guys and not guys who are in the
same situation.
And it needs to be talked about more.
I'm convinced of that.
And so it's uncomfortable for me to talk about it.
But I think it's more important than it is uncomfortable.
Absolutely.
Well, let's talk about the elephant in the room.
You're wearing an elephant on your shirt right now.
I'm just looking at it as I say that.
But the elephant in the room, the patriarchy dun dun dun.
How does the patriarchy, in your opinion, perpetuate all of this?
Gosh.
All right.
We got an hour for this.
No, I think I'll try to sum it up concisely.
How does the patriarchy play into all of this?
So I think the patriarchy is a system that affects all people.
And depending on your gender or your perceived gender by society, it affects you very differently.
It forces you into an impossibly close small box that no actual human really fits into.
And it does this to women.
It does it to men.
It does it to trans, non-binary folks, everyone.
And it does it differently.
And so I think the patriarchy, I mean, yeah, most listeners are women.
So this is probably not a surprise to anyone listening.
But the typical ways of the patriarchy affects women, being considered second class citizens
in a lot of ways and not getting paid appropriately and not getting the recognition for motherhood
and all sorts of stuff like that, not taken seriously in the workplace.
And you could go on and on.
And then the same system has expectations of men that definitely puts them in a position
of privilege in a lot of ways, but also is very detrimental and hurtful in a lot of other
ways too.
And that includes kind of saying a lot of things that are just very true for any human,
regardless of your gender, has no place as a man.
So like you're asking for help if you do that, you are less of a man and therefore less of
a person.
If you express vulnerability or sadness or all sorts of nuanced feelings that isn't deemed
manly, then you are less of a person as well and rejected by your own kind.
And then at the same time, there are other things that you need to be, even if you aren't
actually that.
You need to be big and strong and you need to be confident and you need to be a leader,
even if that absolutely terrifies you.
You have no choice if you want to be accepted by people, or at least this is what boys and
men learn under the patriarchy.
And so that can be really hard to deal with for anyone.
And I don't know, I could go on, but that's kind of like the man box that you're kind
of put into if you're born as a male, regardless of your actual gender.
Yeah.
And that makes me think about how much more violence is done by men, how much more homicide,
how many more serial killers, like all the darkness basically and harm that we see in
society is really caused by so many men.
And it's no mystery now that we're talking about all of this into like the conditioning
of boys and men where you feel like you need to be all these certain ways just to be accepted,
teaching you that you are innately wrong if you don't fit into this really rigid mold
that society has put out for the male archetype.
So with that, Kyle and I have had some pretty testy conversations around masculine and feminine
energies.
And I think that Kyle has a lot of valid points.
And so this is his take.
I want to be clear to share.
This is Kyle's take.
You're inviting me to say this.
Okay.
I'm actually inviting you to say this.
Nice.
All right.
I'll take it.
I think, yeah, I don't know.
You brought up a good point about like violence and how that's tied to masculinity.
I think that's a great point.
But I can talk about this first.
So yeah, I guess my take on, yeah, a lot of times you'll hear this thing is masculine
or this thing is feminine or using masculine and feminine as descriptive words.
And I personally, my take is that I don't like using those at all.
I don't like saying masculine and feminine very much.
And it's because I'd rather just say the qualities themselves.
Because there are tons of people who are very nurturing and caring and great caretakers.
That doesn't make them feminine because that's not, I don't think that's inherently something
that women are like that they have to do or that that is a thing for women.
I think and on the flip side, like if you want if you're big and strong and confident,
like then you're big and strong and confident.
Like that is not territory that makes you a man that makes you masculine.
It's just a quality of a human.
And I think these we've, in my opinion, arbitrarily tied a lot of these things to gender.
And I think under the patriarchy that is weaponized against all genders really to foster insecurity
and as a work as a system of oppression for everyone in different ways.
And so what do you suggest instead of saying masculine feminine energies?
What do you suggest we say instead?
Like I would just say use the use the more specific words.
Like what is it if something is like, I don't know if you're referring to something that
is a masculine energy, just say the thing that is it is actually like, do you understand?
Like give us an example.
So like, I don't know if if I have a conversation with someone and they just seem very like
confident, they know all the answers.
And they're like a go getter, they make a ton of money and they're just they got it
figured out.
You might say like, oh, that person has a lot of masculine energy to them.
I wouldn't want to say that.
I would just say that they seem very confident and they seem like they're doing well at
work and they got a path that they're figuring out and they're doing it.
And that's awesome.
It feels arbitrary to assign that to a masculine thing or a feminine thing.
Because to your point, doing so perpetuates the patriarchy.
Right?
Yeah.
Right?
That's that's the part where I can like get behind you because I'm like, shit, he's right.
Because why would confidence and exuding this like go getter and achieverness not be feminine?
Right, like the feminist in me can totally get behind that.
So thank you for that.
And I think that's Kyle, you are a feminist.
And I love that about you.
And if you weren't, I don't know, we wouldn't have nearly as interesting conversations.
And to tie it back to astrology for just a momento, Kyle has an Aquarius moon and his
Aquarius moon and my Aquarius son, we just connect on this deep, like rebellious leader
way.
So so thank you for seeing me there.
Yeah.
And thanks for being open to the conversations too.
I know.
I can't tell you guys like how many times we've had arguments about this conversation because
because that's what I've been taught.
That's what I hear of like masculine, feminine.
But I think that I think just having that extra layer of like explaining what we mean
by that of like, instead of masculine, I'm going to say solar energy instead of feminine,
I'm going to use lunar because I think that's a way that takes gender out of the equation,
but still gets the same points across.
So there's different ways to do it without misgendering.
I think it's even for me personally, I think it's fine to say like, qualities associated
with masculinity or qualities associated with femininity to make it clear that we are the
humans are the ones that are deciding that this is masculine or feminine.
It's not this biological thing.
Like I don't know, I haven't seen any biological logical proof of any of those qualities.
So I'm on the I like science and I press science.
Show me show me evidence for that and then I'll change my mind.
I love it.
So so with all of this being said, I think it's pretty clear to me when I meet a man
and we're in a deep conversation, it becomes pretty clear to me pretty early on whether
or not they've done work on softness on feeling their feelings on expressing themselves because
there's a whole level of vulnerability and just being able to like, I don't know, meet
the person where they are without being in the ego that that becomes clear to me like,
okay, this is a guy who gets it.
This is a guy who understands like where I'm coming from and can kind of be with me and
this and this point.
And I feel like you are one of those guys.
I mean, clearly, like you have done this work and you're still doing it.
But you also get along with women really easily.
Yeah, I do.
And I think that is partially because you have an older sister.
Side note, I have a theory that guys with older sisters just get along with women easier,
which like, yeah, that's your role model.
But with a woman as a role model, I think that also makes you treat women differently
and see them as more equal than if, let's say, a boy who had older brothers and no sisters,
you know, call me biased.
This is just my learned experience.
I have a little brother and he's also really good with women and growing up had mostly
girlfriends.
So yeah, I think there's something to be said about that too.
Yeah.
Yeah, you agree?
Yeah, I wouldn't be I wouldn't be surprised.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think I think definitely having a older role model who is a girl or woman definitely
helped me kind of have more respect for that that side of things.
Even though I did get very deeply into like masculinity and definitely some toxic stuff.
But I don't know, can I go on a tangent about toxic masculinity as a phrase?
Please, please.
I was hoping you would.
Yeah, that just made me think of the phrase because I said it toxic masculinity.
I don't like that phrase, and it's it's the reason I don't like that phrase is because
I think to the men and I'm saying this from my own personal perspective, too, before I
started working on my own stuff much.
But I think to men who really need to hear this message, the phrase toxic masculinity,
I think will be a huge turnoff to them.
I think it's very easy to make the false assumption that it's it's saying everything that is associated
with masculinity is toxic and we need to turn everyone into genderless people.
And I think that's when you like these.
I don't know.
We I feel we probably all know that type of person person thinking one of your friends
right now.
Yeah.
And and so I don't like using that phrase because I think it pushes them away when I
would say they need the message more than anyone.
And so I try to just refer to it as the patriarchy.
And I think that pulls it back to how it's really just one big system that we're all
kind of forced into different positions with.
Yeah.
So there's like the toxic masculine, which is one area of the spectrum that we can see
in our minds, and maybe we don't call it that when we're talking about it.
But and then on the other end is the embodied masculine.
And that's the person who has really sat with their gender, their masculinity in this case
and questioned like what parts of my personality are actually true to me and what parts of
my personality have I learned in order to fit in in order to be accepted by society
as the sex that I am and that I present as.
So with that toxic masculinity, man, I'm thinking about this friend of yours.
We won't name him, but I feel like you loosely call him a friend now because he's grown in
different directions.
I would still call him a friend, which blows my mind.
He is he very much subscribes to masculine culture and masculinity.
And when you talk with him about therapy, about things that he deems as feminine and
weak and soft, he is the first one to jump at you and call you that.
Call you gay.
Call you like we low T low T. That's a favorite.
Yeah, that's the one that comes up.
Yeah.
Why do you think he does that?
I mean, the patriarchy, he's still he's in it.
He's deep in it.
And it's it's all he's known.
It's and yeah, he's just threatened.
I I don't think he.
Let me think.
I think there is of regardless of if if he realizes it or any guy realizes it, I think
the idea of people being openly like like gender nonconforming or are just open and
true to themselves where it doesn't fit into that tight, tiny masculinity definition.
I think there there's discomfort there because these I think these people know that there's
some of that within themselves and they have been I would say brainwashed to think that
that is so deeply not OK that it needs to never see the light of day.
They never can express it.
And so when they see people expressing that and it's been framed so as such a bad thing
to them, that that makes them uncomfortable because they know that that is within them
as well.
And they're they're pushing that away.
And I don't think that's a conscious thing.
I think that's just like an unconscious thing that they just maybe just feel uneasy and
they don't know what to do with that, because that's another that's another thing with
with boys and men is that a lot a lot of us are brought up completely like dissociated
from our emotions and where we never learn how to truly understand our emotions and listen
to them.
And so sometimes we'll like we'll be feeling something like that and we have no idea where
it's coming from.
And I think that's I mean, that'll happen to anyone, I think.
But it's especially common for for men who are deeply in the patriarchy.
And it has been for me when I was.
And I don't know.
This is another tangent coming up.
But I feel like I want to just talk on one point that you brought up.
And I'll set you free in your next tangent.
Yeah.
But I loved what you said about how how historically it hasn't been OK for people of the last generation
to embrace themselves wholeheartedly like our generation has been given permission to
do.
And like that example of seeing somebody, you know, queer and open and living in their
gender in the way that they feel like expressing it.
That's true to them.
One person in the last generation or even this one may have been taught that that's
wrong, that that's not OK.
So when they see someone living in their truth, there's an alarm going off in their head of
like this is wrong.
This is not OK.
This person is living in a way that I have been told is wrong and they're doing it.
So I have to do something about it.
So I have to tell them that, no, that's wrong.
That's not OK.
When like, wow, what a responsibility they're running around and living their lives with.
Why can't they just live the way that makes them happy?
And it's just like so not what they've been taught and not what they're used to.
And I think it takes really brave people to go out and educate themselves and just kind
of fall on their sword a little bit and say, I've been wrong.
I think the reason why they can't just live and be happy and just move on is because the
patriarchy has stolen that from them.
And I think that is that is the most difficult part of the patriarchy as a guy.
I've heard it framed as like emotional incarceration, where you you are you have your inner emotions
and your deepest level of yourself and who you are stolen from you at such a young age.
And you are never taught the language, the emotional language to figure it out and understand
it.
So it's it's really difficult for for any guy to move past that at all, I think.
And and I mean, like I was saying earlier, that's why I had to get to such a terrible
place before I did anything.
And I don't think that's uncommon at all.
I think that also ties back into what we briefly touched upon earlier is how much like the
vast majority of of homicide is committed by men and in most the vast majority of the
victims are also men.
And in why, you know, like the suicide rate is higher among men and how a lot of I mean,
radicalized groups, white supremacy and and, you know, groups like that.
I mean, the vast majority of it are men.
And I think the reason for that is you can you can look at you can read testimonials
from from prominent people who have gotten out of hate groups like that.
And the answer, as far as I've seen, is always that they made they gave they made them feel
like they belonged and they made them feel safe.
And I think so many so many people.
But in this sense, from like an emotional sense, so many guys are grow up and they don't
have that safety.
And, you know, they're we're we're taught to posture like we're confident we got to
figure it out.
But on the inside, we just need someone to be there for us and we can't ask for it.
And so I think that's when those those radicalization groups can step in and get these vulnerable
young men to do terrible, terrible things.
And it's all just coming from a place of like wanting wanting to belong.
Yeah.
And not understanding that how to health do it in a healthy way.
Yeah.
It's such a great point.
And it's scary, too.
And it's really sad.
I think at the basis of it, like we all need to come together because there's no way that
this problem, the systemic issue is going to be fixed unless we address this.
So I mean, basically, the secret to world peace is healing the wounds of the patriarchy
and that everything that it instills, it's like this week, if we zoom out, it's like
the world leaders.
Most of them are men still, unfortunately.
And there's war and there's hate.
And and yeah.
So Kyle, what are your tips for men who are interested in connecting with themselves and
others on a deeper level than they've been taught initially?
Yeah.
And what are my tips?
I think I would say I think compassion is the absolute key thing to all of this.
And that includes self-compassion for men, especially self-compassion, compassion for
others.
And in having that space to say, I'm feeling this thing, I feel like I need to cry and
get a hug from my friend and just trying it.
Or you don't even have to try that.
Take a little tiny step.
Tell your friend that you're feeling sad and that you feel like you need to talk to someone.
If they're a good friend, they're going to be there for you.
And if they call you a pussy and tell you to go fuck off, then I mean, it's that's
probably not a great friend.
And not a safe person.
Yeah.
So it's yeah, it's finding safe people who are willing to give you that compassion that
you deserve.
And I think I don't know.
That goes to women, too.
I know this is like most women listen to this podcast.
For me personally, I have also received the same kind of shame that I have from other
men for not being masculine enough.
I've received that from women and girls when I was younger.
And it can be spread by anyone of any gender.
And so I think it's good for everyone to really think about like, am I perpetuating this?
Am I am I am I put it setting up expectations that are unhealthy?
I mean, to piggyback on that for a sec.
I remember I was in my last corporate job.
I worked with a woman who I specifically remember that stuck with me.
Like she was single for a really long time.
And whenever she like what data guy she felt like she would self sabotage it.
And then I remember one thing she told me.
I was like, what do you think it is?
She's like, I don't know, one thing this last guy was really great, but he was just so emotional.
And I saw him cry.
And that was like a no for me.
And I was just like, oh, like, it hurts me to hear that.
Yeah.
That perpetuates literally everything we just talked about.
Yeah.
It's like that is her ingrained by the patriarchy.
And it just perpetuates this behavior.
Because if you're shutting down a man for crying, for being sensitive, you're drilling that
in even deeper that that's not OK.
Right.
Yeah, totally.
And I'll just add on to that, that like also like women like in men, any men listen to
this like like your partner is they're not your therapist.
Like it's not their job to figure out all your stuff and hold the weight of all of your
stuff.
And women, it's not your job to I mean, you probably don't need me to tell you this, but
it's not your job to to have like a therapist role.
But everyone does need support.
And so it's important to have compassion and boundaries, I think, on both both sides of
a heteronormative relationship.
No, it's a really good point of like one person can't give you everything you need.
They can't meet your needs.
You need a support system.
So find your support system.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
And I want to give it I think we're at the end, but I want to give some shout outs to
just some some other resources that I've I've listened to and read that I think are really,
really great for me.
One my favorite thing is the pot is another podcast.
It's called the man enough podcast with Liz Plank mentioned earlier, Justin Baldoni and
Jamie Heath are the hosts.
It's really incredible conversations.
I second that we've listened to them together.
Yeah, about masculinity in there.
So many awesome episodes that has helped me so much to hear other men talking about these
issues in a very constructive way.
And I would recommend any guy, any person, especially men, but any person to check that
out and hear the conversations they're talking about there.
And then one audio book, our regular book that we listened to on a road trip a couple
years back.
What was it called again?
That was called The Man They Wanted Me To Be by Jared Yates Sexton.
So that one that one really spoke to me.
That one that one is is talking kind of about his experience growing up in that and the
expectations around masculinity.
And and he actually he did a good job of connecting it to kind of like like politics and more
sociological systems as well and as well as some history.
That was a good one.
Yeah.
And I think a tip that I have for any anyone who's in a relationship with a man and a woman
or anyone who identifies in that way, I highly recommend like if you're ever in a place where
you can listen to an audio book for a long time, whether it's a road trip or if it's
just something you do together in the car, like highly recommend listening to that book,
The Man They Wanted Me To Be and have like your male partner kind of share their take
and little like moments of them growing up where that resonated for them and also play
Untamed by Glennon Doyle.
This was like the other side of things for Kyle to hear about like the women's experience
and how from a young age we are told to be small, to fit into this little box. And again,
it's the patriarchy on the other side telling us to be this way. So it's just really interesting
productive conversations to share from both perspectives to main heteronormative ones.
But yeah, interesting stuff.
Yeah.
Well, thank you, my love. This was fun. Thanks for sharing your light and your wisdom and
thank you all for listening.
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me to let me get on my soapbox and I'm still learning.
So maybe a year from now I'll change my mind from some of the stuff I said, but this is
where I'm at.
Yeah, it's all valid. It's where we all are at right now. We've got to meet ourselves
there. So thank you. Thank you so much everybody for listening. We'd love to hear your feedback,
your takeaways. Hopefully this planted some seeds for you to just think of things maybe
in a little bit of a different way and spark some conversations for people who are safe
to you to go deeper on the topics and yeah, just see where it takes you. So thank you.
Love you all so much and we'll see you next week.