Hello everybody and welcome to a new episode of the Awaken Together podcast.
I'm Kat and Jen isn't here with me today.
For the first time we actually have a guest on today and it's my husband Kyle.
Kyle is a music-making, rock-climbing, deep talk, loving campser, and he's also my partner
in crime and in life.
And yeah, I just want to give a warm welcome to Kyle!
Hello everyone.
So we're recording this episode on Thanksgiving.
Jen and her husband and grandma are spending some time together and we're just getting
ready to head out to our friend's house.
So by the time you're listening to this, it would be Black Friday.
So I hope today's topic gives you some joy and just inspires some new thoughts and conversations
that you might like to have with friends or family this weekend.
Today we're going to be touching on a couple different topics.
One is science and spirituality and how they actually relate to each other and the others
being healing and therapy.
So to kick us off, Kyle, many people think science and spirituality directly contradict
each other, with one being driven by facts and figures and the other being more personal
and more rooted in intuition and feelings.
But we've had plenty of deep talks over our whole relationship together where you convinced
me that there are actually two sides of the same coin.
So could you share a little bit about what spirituality means to you?
Sure.
Okay.
I guess as it relates to science and all of that, so I don't abide by any specific religion,
but I guess you could say that I am pantheistic, which basically means that you believe that
God is everything and God is everywhere and like anywhere there is anything as well as
nothing there is God.
You can't separate God from anything else.
It's not like a being or something like that.
It's incomprehensible, I guess, what God is.
And I see I kind of see God in when I look at the natural world and in my inner world
as well.
Our dog just came to join us.
But yeah, I think it's amazing to look at how the natural world works, how the sun is
actually this like giant nuclear reactor so far away in space and it gives us light and
warmth and it lets everything on earth happen.
And there's really specific chemistry and physics that kind of supports that and makes
that happen.
And I think that's amazing.
I think that's something to respect and honor.
And I think that's where the spirituality comes into it for me and how I think science
and spirituality are kind of the same thing.
They're not necessarily the same thing, but they go hand in hand because the scientific
method is the best thing that we've really discovered to learn as objectively as we can
about the world around us.
It's the reason we have all the technology we have now without the scientific method.
We wouldn't have computers, we wouldn't have cell phones, you wouldn't be listening to
this right now.
We wouldn't have cars, refrigerators, airplanes.
None of this would have happened without discovering the scientific method and learning about the
natural world.
And so I see science in utilizing the scientific method in kind of your everyday life, not
necessarily doing research, but just trying to look at things more objectively as a spiritual
pursuit because you're kind of, you are, and coming back to pantheism, you're kind of,
you are God learning about God in a way.
Like we're all, everything is this giant, complicated system and you're kind of studying
that the same way that like a Christian would study the Bible, if that makes sense.
Yeah, just like a studier of the world around you and finding awe and beauty in seemingly
everyday normal things that can get overlooked.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Pretty much.
I love that.
It's beautiful.
And I don't think it's like too far off from what some traditional religions do say.
I'm just thinking about Christianity and how they say like, God is in everyone.
You know, your brothers and sisters or everyone around you see Jesus in them.
But I think that part of religion gets looked over at least in many societies.
Maybe the people who really take the Bible for what it is and don't look too deep into
it can see that.
But yeah, I think it's a beautiful way to take that and also see it in just like trees
and leaves and nature around you too.
So I feel like if people really lived more so by that belief, then we would be, you know,
we'd just be more conscious of the climate and like actually caring about climate change
and the future of the world and be more into sustainability and everything else like that,
right?
We'd just be living with the earth instead of using it.
Yeah.
And I think it kind of for me naturally breeds just our respect for everything and how everything
works.
And it makes me want to just do what I can to understand what little bit of it I can
understand and do my role in helping the whole system kind of prosper.
And I think you kind of touched upon a point that I think is interesting too with both
science and religion that both are there are kind of both just tools like science is just
a tool to learn about something objectively or as objectively as we can.
Religion is a tool to help guide yourself or guide others on how to live really.
And both of those things throughout history have been taken advantage of for things that
aren't so noble.
I mean, religion you look at like the Crusades or I think it's common with Christianity at
least to use the kind of religion as an excuse for homophobia or things like that.
And then science has also been skewed too, like the whole science versus religion thing
or I mean there's been times in history where people try to justify racism by trying to
use science, which the science doesn't actually support any of that.
But if you have people who aren't quite as scientifically literate, it's easy to kind
of manipulate people in that way.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah, the scary side of it.
So you touched on this before a little bit, but I want to resurface it about how you are
like a lifelong learner and with pantheism just being a student of everything around
you with nature and just seeing God and all of that.
Would you say that's how you practice spirituality?
Yeah, yeah, I'd say so.
I think even something just like going on a hike for me can kind of be comparable, I
think, to someone going to church or something.
A lot of the time I'll just be looking around me and just kind of being in awe of like,
wow, this is like look at how this tree, right?
Just looking at a single tree and looking at how incredible it is and how it's a home
for so many insects and those insects are a part of a food chain that help to feed other
animals and pollinate other plants and how interconnected everything is.
And it's amazing, I think.
Yeah, that oneness.
I definitely resonate with that too.
I've felt that many times just being in nature.
And there's a quote, I forget who shared this, but it's something like, when you feel far
away from nature, you probably feel far away from yourself as well.
And that's because we are nature.
We are a part of this world where if we're feeling so distant from trees or from grass
or from plants in general, then there's that part of us that we're made up of the same
things that maybe you're feeling like you haven't actually understood how you're feeling
for a while.
And so I think it's such a really great point to make and it can be hard in cities sometimes
to feel like you have had that time to be in touch with nature.
So any little tips even, because we've lived in cities, what have you done in those times
to reconnect yourself to nature as well as yourself?
What have I done?
I guess house plants are always great.
Lots of those.
Yep, do.
And I don't know, try to plan a trip to somewhere in nature.
It doesn't have to be something crazy like you're in the middle of the Rockies or something.
You could be just somewhere in the woods down the street from your house, depending on where
you live, if you have that.
Just trying to get anywhere where there's plants.
Yeah, it's really simple.
I mean, you can watch nature documentaries, I don't know.
And I guess it doesn't necessarily even have to be nature.
There's been times where I'll be learning stuff about space and I'll read a book about
space or general relativity or something.
The nerdy side's coming out.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's all related.
Like I said, it's all one giant system and you're just learning about these different
parts of the system.
I think that's also valid for internal work too and getting to know yourself better.
Like you said, we are nature.
We are a part of the system.
We are not separate from all of this other stuff as well.
I love it.
And something that you all probably don't know is that Kyle is the OG plant daddy.
He takes care of all of our plants and we have a lot of them.
How many do we have right now?
Around like 40, I think.
40, yeah.
So if we've been to our place, we like to live in a jungle.
But I think it's because of that.
We like to feel connected with nature and just taking care of something like that that's
alive and gives us fresh air.
It makes the home feel nice.
It does.
Yeah.
He does a great job.
So when you think about this oneness, it's really frustrating, I think, to see people
who don't operate in this same mentality.
People who are so seemingly in it for themselves and don't seem to care about others around
them.
Thinking about people like that, what do you think causes people to lose sight of the importance
of human connection and caring for thy neighbor?
Yeah.
I think what I've been more inclined to say recently is just trauma, I think.
Repressed or unhealed trauma or just kind of like being misguided by what actually matters
in life.
I think both of those things.
I think there's a lot of people who fit into at least one of those categories.
I mean, I do.
I'm always learning and trying to heal from my own traumas and difficulties, but I'm not
perfect.
I think everyone probably fits into that camp to some extent.
I guess probably one of those.
I think there's a saying that I like that it goes, hurt people, hurt people, meaning
people who are hurt, hurt other people.
I think that's really true.
I think thinking about that allows you to have a little bit more compassion for people
you might absolutely hate otherwise.
You don't necessarily have to be a pushover about it either.
You can still disagree with someone and respect their humanity in a way.
Definitely.
It makes me think back to when we lived in Boston, which is where we're from, Massachusetts.
It seemed like people who lived there, and this is kind of like a East Coast mentality
more so, I think people there are a little bit less connected even though people live
closer together and kind of on top of each other in the city.
There's that no new friends mentality and everybody more so keeps to themselves than
they do out here in Colorado where we live now.
Any ideas?
What might attribute to that?
I have my own, but I want to hear yours.
I don't know.
I think, I don't know.
This is all guesses.
I don't know.
I'm not trying to judge anyone.
One thing that I think is, I think there's a big time workaholism culture back there
and in general, I think, in the United States at least and other countries, but I'm from
here, so I know more about here.
But I think there's a lot of people who are extremely focused on their careers and they
see that as a way to be happier, be secure.
Successful.
Yeah.
And because of that, there's just not a lot of time for friends and leisure and things
like that.
So you get your group of however many people and then you stick to that and don't focus
on work otherwise.
That's just one reason that doesn't describe everyone.
Yeah.
Now I think it's a big part of the picture there too.
I also feel like when I was there, I never really heard people talk about therapy.
We're all so younger then and now we're in our 30s and I don't know, I feel like everybody
talks about therapy in our 30s and now we're just on this journey of healing and awakening.
Whereas in our 20s, that wasn't as common.
I don't know whether it was just us and the people we were hanging out with or what.
But yeah, it seems like here everyone I know is in therapy and not boasts about it, but
it's proud of that.
That they're doing this hard, deep work and that they're feeling better, that they're
feeling different.
So thinking about you, I'm constantly amazed you've been doing deep healing work for four
years now.
So I'm wondering if you could share with our listeners how your relationship with yourself
has changed since we lived in Boston.
Oh gosh.
Yeah, I feel like a different person in a lot of ways, but I'm the same person.
I guess, yeah, it's been about four years since I've started getting professional help.
So go back in time to when we were still in Boston.
I was kind of...
2017?
Yeah, 2017 was my low year.
I think I've experienced definitely some trauma in my life and I think I wasn't really dealing
with any of that.
Instead, I was kind of succumbing to workaholism and maybe my judgment on everyone else is
just me projecting my own stuff on everyone else, but I know I fit into that category
back then.
I kept thinking of if I work harder, if I keep going, if I do everything right, I have
to do all these things and accomplish this stuff and then I'll finally be happy.
You would call me out on that sometimes too.
You would tell me that I always seem to think that I have to do this one extra thing and
then I'll be good and then I do it and then there's a new one extra thing and I'll be
good after that.
Yeah, who hasn't experienced that before, right?
Yeah, but I got really bad with that and I had a lot of things that were triggering me
and I was dealing with progressive depression and anxiety.
It was kind of low grade at first, but I think it gradually got worse over a few years to
the point in 2017 where I really hit a breaking point.
I was severely, severely depressed and I was having panic attacks a couple of times a week
at work.
One time I had a panic attack while giving a presentation remotely to about 200 people
and that was one of my least favorite memories of my life.
So I was in really bad shape and then I don't know, I remember one night just being completely
numb and feeling terrible and talking to you about it.
You started talking about how you've gone to therapy when you were younger and how that
actually helped you.
So I had been brought up to think that therapy is only for crazy people and no one actually
goes to therapy.
That's if you're broken.
There's a really harsh judgment on that.
And so I never-
Especially for men.
Yeah, yeah.
I think especially for men too.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
And so I really bought into that, I think, without even really realizing it.
I never really thought of that as an option or going on medication or anything like that.
And at this point I was desperate and I was like, I cannot live my life like this.
This is not, it's just, I can't do it, period.
And so I decided to finally try and see a therapist and I got on some antidepressants
for, I was on those for like two or three years and have been going to therapy since,
reading a bunch of self-help books and all that.
I don't know if I answered the question.
I'm just kind of rambling about my beginning to therapy at this point.
No, I mean it's a life experience.
I think it's great.
But I mean, thinking about that journey and where you are now, how has your relationship
with yourself improved?
Yes, right.
So that's where I was.
And then over the course of the following four years of doing all this personal work,
and it's really like I'm peeling an onion and you think you get to one layer and you're
like, oh, okay, this is why I'm the way I am or why I have the trouble that I do.
And then you realize there's another layer under that and you got to peel that and it's
seems like it's that.
Crying the whole time.
Every layer of the onions.
Yeah.
Triggering more and more.
Totally.
Yeah.
But I think ultimately my journey since then, I have so much more compassion for myself
now.
I had an incredibly toxic inner dialogue with myself back then.
I would never talk to anyone the way that I would talk to myself back in those days.
And I'm just a lot better at not doing that and treating myself the way that I would treat
you or anyone else really.
How anyone deserves to be treated.
Yeah.
And I've been lately I've been getting into something called IFS, which I'm telling everyone
about because it's helping me so much.
It stands for internal family systems.
It's really good for if you've experienced complex trauma.
So trauma, not like one or two big traumatic events, but kind of a long period of time
dealing with some stuff.
It's really, really great.
I think it's great no matter who you are.
I'm convinced.
I love it.
And it goes on that philosophy.
I've learned all this from Kyle.
You know when we say a part of me thinks this.
It's like that's exactly we intuitively know about this system already when we say things
like that because it's the understanding that there's all these different parts that make
us a whole person.
Right.
Yeah.
And then when you're dealing with with trauma or traumatic events, some of your parts will
kind of morph into what are called protectors and they will try and protect other parts
of you that are kind of typically these kind of like these hurts.
Usually it's like a hurt inner child or a very vulnerable low self-esteem or something
like that part of you.
And then you have all these different parts of yourself interacting with each other and
that are triggered by different things and they have different relationships with the
external world and with each other.
It's kind of insane.
You can go Google Richard Schwartz.
He's the guy that kind of put the framework together.
He has a lot of stuff on YouTube.
It's really great.
And so that that has allowed me to really understand myself and how I operate and why
on a deeper level and be able to really feel what I'm feeling and understand where it's
coming from and and how to manage it without going into like a crisis or just feeling like
I'm going crazy and I don't know why.
That's fantastic.
Yeah.
Like, I'm just so proud of you, like you you meet with your therapist every week and like
I'm sure that's not easy.
But you're such a good student of therapy.
You do all your homework and I'm just I'm just really proud of you and grateful that
you want to do this kind of stuff because there are many men out there who still like
are in that mindset that you were in Boston of like this is for crazy people and women.
You know, it's not just men who think that.
And it's just it's hard to even get on this healing path in the first place.
Once you're on it, more doors keep opening of different pathways.
You can take it and go down and different things resonate with different people.
But what tip would you give someone who's on their own path of awakening?
I would say before I get into that, you're talking about the struggle of men to it.
I do want to make a point to any any guys out there listening to this or or any not
guys who know guys that could use the information like like ask for help when you need it.
Like you like I don't.
For me, I totally bought into the thing of like you got to do it on your own.
You got to figure it out.
You got like you can't you can't ask for help.
Like you got to be the leader.
You got to have it under control.
You just got power through.
And it's it's crazy.
No, that's no one can do that.
Like just ask for help when you need it.
Be honest with yourself.
It's OK.
Yeah.
So I guess that's that's maybe some advice specifically for men and women who I'm sure
there are women who might need that message to or non-binary and all all across the.
Yeah.
So.
So tip, I guess I would say that I think my number one tip would be that therapy will
not fix you.
You are the only person who can quote unquote fix you, which I don't like that term at all.
But you're the only person that can create this positive change in yourself.
Other people can help you.
Therapists are really great resources for helping you do that.
But ultimately you have to do the work.
You have to be honest with yourself.
You have to be honest with everyone else.
Otherwise it's it's not going to work out.
You just have to totally buy into the process and and take a lot.
Yeah.
Take responsibility for yourself and and and be compassionate with yourself in that process
to like it's not going to be fair.
If you're going to be stumbling through the whole thing, I've been stumbling through the
whole thing and that's OK.
That's what humans do.
And beautiful mess.
Yeah.
I tell my clients that at the beginning of our health coaching like journeyed together,
the first meeting, I would say what you put in is what you're going to get out.
It's the same in all areas of healing.
So I'm really glad you brought that up.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Of course.
Any last thoughts that you want to share?
I guess I would say just I don't know.
I'm a big fan of being a lifelong learner.
The whole thing.
Think for yourself in question type thing, I guess.
And and really pay attention to.
I don't know what what's going on around you and within you.
I think presence and attention are very important things.
There are a lot of, you know, toxic aspects to our culture in the world out there.
And it's good to think critically about this stuff.
And and I think it's good to think critically about yourself as well, too.
And I think you can do that compassionately.
And I do it compassionately now.
And yeah, like if if something feels good, that's awesome.
And if you feel like it, maybe dig a little deeper and think about like, like, where is
this coming from?
Why does it feel good?
And because I've found for me sometimes in the past and still currently something that
maybe feels good in the short term is will actually hurt me in the long term.
You know, having that chocolate cake for feels great in the moment.
But think about I feel next day.
Think about the big picture.
Yeah.
That's a little example, I guess.
But that drink.
Yeah.
Don't eat it.
Right.
You want it in the moment.
Right.
And I think that's a good example.
Where is this desire for this extra drink coming from?
Like am I am I looking for something else?
Is this third drink really going to help me have more fun?
Maybe it will.
But it's important to really ask those questions, I think, and try to understand where where
this stuff comes from within you.
Having that inner dialogue with yourself.
And I think it's how we learn to trust ourselves.
To grow that that relationship with us when we know that we'll continue showing up for
ourselves in positive ways and that we care enough to do so.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, thank you, my love.
Did you have fun?
Yeah, this is interesting.
I'm a little nervous about everyone hearing my thoughts and opinions.
But here you go, world.
Have them.
They have them.
All right.
Well, thank you, Kyle.
And thank you, everybody, for listening.
We will see you again next week.
Bye.