1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,200 Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. 2 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:24,440 Let's talk about sailing, our marine industry and innovations towards getting it clean. 3 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,880 I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with a passion for the 4 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:34,960 health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with innovators, inventors, adventurers and 5 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,280 inspirational sailors, we're looking at those who are helping to change the way things are done. 6 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,920 As you may know through a few of our existing podcast episodes and notably through our resale 7 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:51,600 by Clean Sailors platform, End of Life Sails is a topic of real interest to me personally. 8 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:58,240 It all started with a mainsail from my grandfather's boat which after traversing the Biscay Atlantic, 9 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:03,520 Solent, Channel and offshore seas down to Cape Town, South Africa, had understandably lost 10 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,960 its integrity as a mainsail. But what to do with it? I set out trying to find opportunities, 11 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:14,640 solutions for End of Life Sails. There aren't any formal recycling schemes to be found anywhere in 12 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,920 the world but many small organisations have been working with sail material to make new things. 13 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:26,080 And so resale by Clean Sailors was born, a global platform connecting sailors in 11 countries with 14 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:32,560 over 36 projects that need and use old sails. But it's clear this isn't the long-term sustainable 15 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:38,960 opportunity, environmentally or economically. And now the political landscape is also shifting. 16 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:45,600 I'm excited to be speaking with Dr Joe Penhall-Smith and Sam Penhall, two clever minds working 17 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:51,840 towards recycling sails in the most direct meaning of the term recycling. Joe, Sam, 18 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:56,320 pleasure to have this conversation with you. There is so much to discuss on this topic 19 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,800 and I'm prepared again to have my mind popped on a few areas. 20 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,040 Thank you very much. Now it's great to speak to you. 21 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,640 Let's start with who you are and what you stand for. 22 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:13,280 We are a pure recycling company. I say pure in the sense that we take the sails and we 23 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:20,320 break them down and turn them into their kind of base chemicals or if they've got album fibers in 24 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:26,000 them, we extract those fibers. So it's really taking everything back to its most basic form 25 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:32,160 of compound. So why are you doing this? This kind of started for me with the America's Cup 26 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:41,040 being down in Auckland and working for Ilios. And after the end of that cup, we packed up huge 27 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:47,440 amounts of composites and particularly the sails. I mean, there were sails that we never even put 28 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:52,960 on the boat that were packed into this container and shipped back to the UK. And to the best of 29 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,840 our knowledge, they're still sitting in Chichester. So at that point, I went to Joe and said, 30 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:03,680 look, what can we do? Is there something we can scientifically do to try and solve this massive 31 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:09,840 issue that sailing has? And he kind of went away and found this really cool bit of text that he 32 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:15,680 could develop and build on. And for us, it really comes back to that love of sailing and having always 33 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:21,760 been sailors from being very young. And Joe, what's your goal? At the end of the day, the world needs 34 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:28,800 to change quite fundamentally over the next 20 or 30 years to quite dramatically decarbonize. 35 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:34,720 And we need to have a much more positive relationship with our local environment and the globe. 36 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,880 And one of the big ways that we see is to achieve that is to develop this kind of 37 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:46,160 circular economy. There's no point in digging oil out the ground, turning into things and then 38 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,240 dunking them afterwards. That's just a whole waste of time and effort. But if we can develop this 39 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,960 circular economy, so when things come offline, they go back into the start of the system, 40 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:00,640 that not only eliminates the to dig oil out of the ground at the first place, but it also 41 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:06,080 dramatically cuts your carbon emissions, while simultaneously having a really positive environmental 42 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:11,760 impact because you're not putting anything into landfill. And that's ultimately kind of our aim 43 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:18,720 is to develop that even in a very small scale, sales, composite, more generally system is developing 44 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:24,320 that and leading on to the kind of the positive end results. And sales is one thing that you're 45 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,760 I appreciate starting with. But this is technology that you talked about scaling through end of life 46 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:35,680 boats, potentially even the automotive industry and sort of wind turbines. This is almost all 47 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:41,760 encompassing once you start scaling it. Yeah, I mean, that's what we hope. Because although a piece 48 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:48,800 of car looks very, very different to a sale, from a Hemis point of view, actually, they're very similar. 49 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:55,840 They all use carbon fibers, they all use resins. So if you can have a way that breaks one of them 50 00:04:55,840 --> 00:05:02,400 down, suddenly that can cascade and you can do a whole load of other similar things as well. 51 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:07,520 I'm smiling at you because it reminds me of those sort of little clips that you hear about Darwin 52 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,200 explaining that we've got more in common with the banana than we do with the chimpanzee. And it 53 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:16,000 just reminds you that fundamentally, there is a relatively finite number of building blocks 54 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,760 that we have on the planet, right? So everything is everything else, somehow, certainly intertwined. 55 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,440 In terms of your obviously the scalability, it's a huge element. But coming back to sales 56 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,000 themselves, we know that obviously there's a variety of different materials and they undergo 57 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,240 a variety of different processes, not least because sale makers are looking at new technology 58 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,760 in ways of compressing and heat pressing rather than gluing sales, for example. 59 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:45,280 But fundamentally, as a tech style, what are the bare composites of most sales? What are they made of? 60 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:52,000 So virtually all of your sales are made out of polyester. So the same kind of underpinning 61 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:58,320 chemistry as polyester clothes, you produce large quantities of polyester and you spin into a fiber 62 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:03,280 and you then weave that fiber. The point where it becomes a little bit more complex is that you then 63 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:09,440 mostly bind it in place with an additional binding resin. So for Dacron, the Dacrons 64 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,680 could be using their brand name, but we collectively use it to describe all polyester 65 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,880 cell bluffs. That's polyester fibers banded in place with a melamine resin. So that's a composite 66 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:24,880 with polyester melamine. But you can use that same composite process. So the same fiber with a binding 67 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:31,120 resin routine. If you replace the polyester fibers with carbon fibers or ultramelacorate 68 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:37,200 polyethylene or aramids, and you can still, instead of binding out in place with a melamine resin, 69 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:43,440 you bind in place with a polyester resin instead. So the underpinning chemistry is polyester and 70 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:49,280 something else. The obvious only kind of exception to that is spinnakers, which are made actually 71 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:55,360 not along with a polyurethane binding resin it plays. But it is of course quite often the binding 72 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,600 resin and the coatings attached to that binding resin that cause you the problems in the first 73 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:05,760 place. It's called straightforward to recycle polyester. You can just chop it up and melt it 74 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:11,360 and re-spin the polyester. There are problems with that process. It's never perfect, but it does work. 75 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:17,600 The problems mostly come in when you start adding other things to the system. At the moment you start 76 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:23,200 adding other things to the system, interfere either with your chopping process, your melting process, 77 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:30,320 your breaking down the chemistries within the system processes. So you end up needing a recycling 78 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,280 solution, which is incredibly agnostic. It doesn't really matter what you throw into your recycling 79 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,320 system. It just has to be able to break that apart in some way, shape or form. So we had to move 80 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:46,560 away from like your methyl-alysis, glycol-assist, and even your pyro-assist to breast-alysis, 81 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:52,000 which is much more generic and much more useful. Which is why you're then able to scale it through 82 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,520 different industries and different treatments. Because as you said, the fundamental building 83 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:00,880 blocks of a car versus a boat versus a sail versus a turbine may be similar, but ultimately the 84 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:06,960 treatment of such material has been so significantly different in its ultimate use. Exactly. 85 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,760 And why is that so exciting for recycling in general? Because this is a big opportunity with 86 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:17,280 sales, as I mentioned, in our four years of investigation, or through the industry and beyond, 87 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:23,280 there are no formal sail recycling facilities anywhere in the world yet. So why is this exciting? 88 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,560 Well, no, exactly. Like you say, this is the first of its kind. This has never actually been done 89 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:36,160 before. So a few years ago, I was working for various sailing teams and we ended up loading in 90 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:41,120 loads of sales into containers and they got shipped around the world and they just sit there. 91 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:46,080 Basically, they don't go anywhere because these sales can't be repurposed for other boats. 92 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,600 Occasionally, they could be made into bags and things like that, but there's only really kind 93 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:58,960 of 1% of the market that that actually happens for. So I then went to Joe and said, 94 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,760 is there a solution we can find for this? Is there something out there that can be done? 95 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:10,720 And he is much more than I am. So he has got away and over the past three years now, 96 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:19,840 we've developed this system which can break down these really complex resins that bind all the 97 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,960 carbon fibres, Kevlar fibres together to make these sales so strong. 98 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,400 I think the key thing you mentioned, Sam, though, is the fact that we're talking about 99 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:35,680 such a variety of material, not just sail by sail and sail's purpose, but also the fact that any one 100 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:40,080 sail has a variety of different composites and materials woven into that one sail to give it 101 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,880 the integrity, the hardiness, the longevity that it needs to operate in some of the world's toughest 102 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,680 environments. So we're talking about probably some of the most complex materials on the planet. 103 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:54,800 Like you say, these things go around the world multiple times. I mean, take a cup sail or a 104 00:09:54,800 --> 00:10:00,320 one day sail, for example, they have just in the fibres, they've got Kevlar's, they've got 105 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:07,680 pyramids, they've got twarons, technoras, of course, the carbon fibre, and all of that is 106 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:14,960 interwoven in the sail and then all bound together with a polyester resin, unlike a fabric, like a 107 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:21,280 clothing fabric, which again is polyester, but doesn't have any of these other more complicated 108 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:27,520 materials in it. Spanning that complexity, it is that kind of huge range that was the kind of thing 109 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:34,000 that made us kind of get quite excited about this, because if you're spanning that continuum from 110 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:41,280 the kind of very basic Dacrons, which are much closer to clothing fabrics, than all the way up to 111 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:46,320 your kind of carbon composite sails, the kind of cup sails are chemically speaking closer to a 112 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:52,000 wind turbine than they are to a piece of clothing, even if they're still a fabric. But if you have 113 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,280 a recycling solution, which can deal with that continuum, it means you've actually got a recycling 114 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:03,200 solution that can also deal with textiles and wind turbines, or a divide boats, or anything 115 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:08,880 else that's chemically relatively similar to a sail. And I can see for you, Joan, particularly with 116 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,320 your scientific background, I can see how that in particular is a very juicy opportunity to start 117 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:20,480 literally dissecting some of the most complex compositions of materials, right? How does one 118 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:25,360 even go about beginning that process? Because we've talked about this in the past, the danger is 119 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:30,560 obviously creating a process that in itself is highly energy intensive, which almost negates the 120 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:36,880 purpose of recycling something in the first place, or you're producing the kind of feared chemical 121 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:42,320 soup as a result, which in itself is a waste product, which is particularly potent and toxic 122 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,400 potentially that you then also have to do something with. So those in itself provides a really 123 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:51,360 exciting parameters for you, for anyone else that I can see it's been intimidating, which is why it's 124 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,360 not been done before. And I appreciate you guys are cracking it. So how did you even start the 125 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:01,840 process of dissecting this material? And what is the process as far as you can actually discuss and 126 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:07,200 allude to it? I mean, it's that kind of total challenge, right? You need a very agnostic recycling 127 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,040 solution, which means that it doesn't matter what you put in, provide you take the process 128 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,520 conditions right, you'll get back what you expect to get out of it, and you get back all of it, 129 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:21,600 the overwhelming majority of it. What we ended up running with was a super heated steam based 130 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:28,480 recycling solution. So relatively high temperatures and pressures, water stops behaving like 131 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:35,200 what do we get sailing on to drink, and it starts behaving in a chemically very interesting manner 132 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:40,400 and chemically very complex manner. And it stops behaving like water, as you would see, and it 133 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:47,280 starts behaving a bit more like a very effective way of unraveling polymers, different plastics, 134 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:52,240 very quickly and very efficiently. And because it's water, it will still have that level of 135 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:58,640 reactivity as well. So you have access to not just pyrolysis where you're heating some of the 136 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,280 art, you don't just have access to facts very hot, you also have access to like the water as a 137 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,800 catalyst, water is can take possible reactions as well. So you end up with four or five different 138 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:15,680 mechanisms that you can tailor to then very rapidly unravel the thing you put into it. So that's 139 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:19,840 how you'll adapt to alcohol, alcohol, fiber. And also, the nice thing about water is we've been 140 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,240 dealing with water purification, we've been dealing with water recovering things from water 141 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:30,640 since humanity has existed. So there's a lot of technology available at very high levels of 142 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:38,640 effectiveness, you can then apply to a your water based system to also then not just recycle the 143 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,760 thing you put in, but recover all those building blocks and then reassemble it subsequently. 144 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,000 This is the exciting element of it and something you're going to have to explain a little bit 145 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,200 further for my smaller scientific mind is that the principle of the building blocks, right? 146 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,040 Because Sam, you mentioned things that were in a sale at the beginning of this conversation that 147 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:02,320 I've never heard of before. I mean, obviously, you're used to the sort of notion of the substance 148 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,480 such as Kevlar, but that itself is made up presumably of a variety of building blocks, 149 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,520 like most things. So when you're talking about reducing our sales as an example, 150 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:16,800 down to the building blocks, you're talking about the fundamental bits and pieces that don't just 151 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,440 only belong to sales, but can belong to a variety of different industries, products, 152 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:29,040 ultimately that can be made out of them, right? Exactly. So the sales chemically are very similar, 153 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:36,640 like Joe said, to a lot of other things. So when you break down any polyester based thing, 154 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:42,960 whether that's clothing, wind turbines, or the sale, you get back the kind of two basic compounds, 155 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:49,840 one which is pterothalic acid and the other is ethylene glycol. So these two building blocks 156 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:59,280 are used for roughly one third of all plastics produced on earth. So any PET plastic are made 157 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,960 up of those two chemicals. So from there, you can imagine that if we have those building blocks 158 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:12,160 from a recycled source, suddenly the potential there is huge. So we could then take that and 159 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:19,840 we've shown it can be turned back into low-deadstee PET and then from there, it can be taken into 160 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:25,600 anything, right? You've condensed it down and you turn it into chips and then those chips can be 161 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:32,160 put into water bottle manufacturer, clothing manufacturer, you name it, it can probably be done. 162 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,360 In terms of the process, when you're breaking sales down into the building blocks, what's the 163 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,680 integrity of each of those building blocks? Because they've obviously been sales and you put them 164 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,960 through a high pressure, high steam process to get them re-blocked, let's say, as their individual 165 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:52,400 kind of blocks. So let's take the acid, for example, or the glycol. What's the integrity of that? Is 166 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:57,600 it almost as if it were virgin or has it naturally lost some of its integrity by virtue of already 167 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,800 having been a sale and having undergone this extensive steam and heat process? Dr. Joe? 168 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:09,120 So it's maybe not the best way to think about it as don't think about it as a physical structure, 169 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,760 think about it a bit more like LEGO bricks. So think about as you effectively have TPA as a 170 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:21,040 blue LEGO brick and EG as a LEGO brick. And those bricks are the most stable form of those 171 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,120 building blocks. So if you want to then build yourself a sale, you need to assemble a large 172 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:31,360 collection of LEGO bricks. But if you then take it all apart, the smallest entity you get from that 173 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:38,240 is your red and blue blocks. So provided that you don't have too much of the stuff in your 174 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:43,680 disassembled sale, so green LEGO bricks to extend the metaphor, it's quite straightforward then to 175 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,320 just reassemble the LEGO bricks afterwards. And conveniently as well, because they're in this 176 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,800 metaphor different colors, they behave slightly different chemically, it's quite straightforward 177 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:58,560 to then remove particularly the kind of added coatings that a lot of other plastic manufacturers 178 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,520 will add to adding in a lot of the additives. It's quite easy to strip out green LEGO bricks, 179 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,400 just get back the red and the blue they originally started with. 180 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:11,760 That's the big thing, isn't it? Because as we've talked about, sales are made from such complex 181 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:17,040 variety of materials. So the different types of sales, the different types of boats and 182 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,680 news cases, the different age, I mean, there are still sales and circulation that are 40, 183 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:28,080 50 years old if they've either not been used or have been exceptionally well looked after. 184 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:34,080 So are there a specific type that you're able to work with preferably or is it something that can 185 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:40,160 apply to all sales? No, I mean, it's all sales. So whether it's like I said, because you're breaking 186 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:46,560 down into its most fundamental parts, it almost doesn't matter what's happened to it beforehand, 187 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:52,480 whether it's a almost brand new sale which has been used 10 times and ripped or whether it's 188 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:58,800 one of the 50 year old sale that's been a really hard life because you can break them down into 189 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,360 their building blocks, you can use any of them really. You make it sound so simple chaps, but 190 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:10,080 that would sort of rely the extensive research and testing and iterations that you both have gone 191 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,720 through over time to get this to where you are now. I mean, where are you in the process of 192 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,880 bringing this to life? Because obviously, and we'll talk about the sort of political and legislative 193 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:25,760 environment in a second, but in terms of this being a prototype tested otherwise scalable, 194 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,640 where are you in that process and what are you looking for? Yeah, so at the minute we're 195 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:39,120 operating up in the north of the UK on around a two ton scale annually. So some of that we're 196 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:46,320 getting from sales, some of that's manufacturing waste from sale makers, and we're really using 197 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:54,000 this as a way to build a really good data bank so that currently the system is very small, 198 00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:00,240 so that when we go and build our main facility, our next facility, it will be able to operate at 199 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:07,760 nearly 20 tons annually with the option of kind of building that out. That's where we're looking 200 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:13,600 at the minute for to try and find the right investment from hopefully within the sailing 201 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:20,240 industry to really be able to push it to the next level so that we're not just a very niche bit so 202 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:25,280 that we can properly impact the industry. But yeah, it's just finding that investment is our next big 203 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:30,000 step really. Well, I think also you're doing something that hasn't been done before. I mean, 204 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,680 we're in 2024, forgive me. Sales have been around for a long time. Plastic has been around for a 205 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:40,400 little less than that, but certainly long enough. You're doing something that's not insignificant 206 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,720 and the opportunities are obviously endless because as you've described, you're looking at 207 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,240 the most complicated, which means that you can apply it to sales but also as Joe mentioned, 208 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,920 to a variety of different industries all the way up to potentially composites and otherwise for 209 00:19:54,480 --> 00:20:00,560 wind turbines and stuff. So the practicality is very evident. It's almost as if is the industry 210 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:07,440 itself ready for it yet, which brings us on to our next topic nicely. I mean, we're talking about 211 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:12,800 sale material as if it was its own specific entity in itself, which it is, but it also is a textile, 212 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,200 right? I mean, largely it is a fabric and you've alluded to the sort of fashion industry and polyester, 213 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:23,440 etc. We're talking about very, very complex form of textile, aren't we? And we know that 214 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,600 the fashion industry, the textile industry in particular has come under a lot of scrutiny 215 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:34,160 in the last decade for just sheer volume of waste, but also on a recyclability, let's say, 216 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,160 certainly at scale. Not to say that it can't be recycled, but rather it hasn't been yet. 217 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,040 And obviously that's the problem that you're trying to solve. And if the marine industry 218 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:47,680 hasn't yet or sale makers haven't yet moved to scalable solutions themselves or invested in 219 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,240 scalable solutions for recycling their materials, we're in a context now where we're almost being 220 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,520 forced to make that change. Do you want to talk to us a little bit about particularly the UK legislation, 221 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:03,360 but actually as we're seeing across Europe around producer responsibility and how we're now seeing 222 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:08,400 a change in almost government and legislative responsibility around who should be looking 223 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:15,920 after old sales? Yeah, I think the kind of lead into that is that the particularly EU and the UK 224 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:21,600 are moving much more heavily in favor of extended producer responsibility legislation. 225 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:28,240 So currently, the last person to own that sale jacket, t-shirt, whatever, that's the person who 226 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:34,000 is currently responsible financially and legally for the disposal of that. If destroyed the sale, 227 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:39,440 that t-shirt has had too long a life, whatever. And that has made it quite tricky to run a 228 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,920 recycle system because, functionally, you're dealing with the last person in the chain who is 229 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:51,520 the least likely to have any capacity to pay for or manage or necessarily expertise to manage that 230 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:57,280 product standard. As you said, sales are hugely chemically complex entities. We can't necessarily 231 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,600 expect you to have gone away, understood the fundamental chemistry and they go, oh, right, 232 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,880 the way to recycle this is to do this. So instead, the EU and UK are starting to move towards 233 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:15,760 producer responsibility style legislation. So as a salemaker, you instead pay, effectively pay for 234 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:21,680 disposal of that ahead of time. So you pay a small amount every time that you make a sale, 235 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:27,360 and that then gets held by a producer responsibility organization to provide 236 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:32,480 recycling solutions, end of life solutions, not just for to drive recycling, but also 237 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,880 to make sure that the people who need those second hand sales can get them. You need those, 238 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,360 that cloth for bags can get access to all this still. So you end up with this kind of secondary 239 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:47,040 ecosystem around the life of that product. The challenge from our perspective, from the kind 240 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:53,760 of marine industry perspective is that sales on textiles, sales of legally textiles, sales of 241 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:59,840 typically textiles, sales are considered under all the textile based legislation, which does 242 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:06,320 lead to the sloppy, interesting tension where if we're not careful, sales off particularly, 243 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:13,920 but some composites as well, will get sucked into a wider textiles based management speaker system, 244 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,280 which is likely to mean it will mean that these products don't get managed really at 245 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:25,120 end of life because we're a fraction of the fashion industry, for example, there's an interesting 246 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:29,360 tension at Flaity currently in terms of the development of this legislation. 247 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:33,680 In itself, it's obviously something that we've discussed at previously France are quite far 248 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,400 ahead with in terms of boat manufacture. So you know, when you're buying the boat, a brand new 249 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:44,080 boat, you're now paying a premium for the end of life treatment of that boat, right? Because 250 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:49,520 you're right, by the time I bought my boat, which is, I'm probably like the fifth owner in a 40 year 251 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,920 period, and the value of the boat normally has depreciated, I'm the least interested in, honestly, 252 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,360 in terms of taking responsibility for what to do with it, because ultimately, there aren't any 253 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:04,560 solutions currently at scale that can deal with that, which is why you see those behaviors such 254 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:10,000 as dumping stuff and landfilling stuff, because it's cheap, it's easy, and it isn't monitored, 255 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:15,360 or at least legislated against. So I hear you in terms of the end of life and actually shifting 256 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:20,560 that responsibility actually back to the first owner in some cases, but ultimately also the 257 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:26,960 producer. So if I produce the material, it's also my responsibility to deal with it when it's no longer 258 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,680 useful in that guy's as a material, or at least would be landfillable, essentially. 259 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:38,400 But the interesting thing is also how it's also changing the nature of how we're producing things, 260 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:44,800 right? Because is this legislation not also challenging material producers and how they 261 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:50,240 label stuff, right? The center which they're using recyclable materials in their products, 262 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,280 the reduction of hazardous waste or hazardous materials. I mean, we're talking even with sales, 263 00:24:55,280 --> 00:25:01,520 I wouldn't eat or sleep with or wear any of those materials that it's made with, but just by virtue 264 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,960 of their chemical compounds, right? So there is also this big push towards being more transparent 265 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,520 about what goes into the production. And it's quite a change. I mean, this is going to be quite a 266 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:17,200 substantial change because as we've discussed, this is going to be imminent. And the industry 267 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:24,240 itself is not particularly well set up yet, right? Yeah, exactly. This is coming in, this will be 268 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:29,680 in some way, shape or form law every country in the EU. It's already the Circuit Economy Bill in 269 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:35,600 Scotland, the Circuit Economy Acts now in Scotland. There's the Deffery equivalent through the UK, 270 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,840 and the EU Circuit Economy Bill will be finalized at the end of this year, or implementation in the 271 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:48,160 next year, possibly beginning of January, kind of January, February 26, depending on where it gets 272 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:53,280 implemented. So yeah, this is coming. This is inevitable. The Marine industry fairly seriously 273 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,960 needs to start jaging with this positively, because otherwise, it's going to get sucked into much 274 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:05,840 wider, much broader piece of legislation, which just won't deliver recycling solutions for the 275 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:11,760 things that has to identify our real problems. And or be faced with penalties as a result of not 276 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,840 adhering to the legislation, right? Certainly in the couple of years following the passing of the 277 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,960 legislation, at least the implementation of it at scale would be there, you know, the penalties 278 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,120 for not actually adhering to it. We're talking about production lines that have existed for decades, 279 00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:30,080 and we notably, let's say, as a crude mark of the 50s, 60s, when plastic production in the 280 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:37,200 marine industry really found its grounding. So we're talking about a very well set up production 281 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:43,600 line of manufacture and finishing and maintenance, having to shift within really 12 months to 282 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,400 thinking quite differently about its end of life materials. In your experience so far, guys, 283 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,480 is the industry moving fast enough, let's say? Is anybody ready? 284 00:26:53,280 --> 00:27:00,160 No, not at all, really. And I think some of that probably comes down to, to take the sailing 285 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:07,760 industry, for example, sale makers are very good at designing and building sales. But they're not 286 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:14,960 material scientists. They fundamentally don't know chemically what's in their sales, I don't 287 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,920 believe, from all of the ones that we've spoken to over the years. They don't understand that these 288 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:30,240 things are the same as textiles or wind turbines. So getting to a solution isn't always easy for 289 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:37,600 somebody who doesn't have that background. So when we come in and say, ah, now we have a solution, 290 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:45,520 it takes a while to educate people to show them that these are uncommon materials, these are things 291 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:52,320 that are very common across the world. So there are solutions out there and we can prevent this 292 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:59,120 from going to landfill. And now, basically with legislation, we are being forced to do that. 293 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:06,320 And it's just trying to accelerate that education and that knowledge across the industry really to 294 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,680 show that bearing your head in the sand isn't going to work forever. 295 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,200 But I think, like you said, I mean, obviously, I appreciate one of us on this call, 296 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,040 who's got a doctorate in the subjects in which we're studying. Actually, you're trying to translate 297 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:22,320 that. I mean, when you're explaining to it, obviously, it makes practical sense describing it. 298 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,320 But you're talking exactly like you're talking about a whole industry, you've done things a 299 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:32,400 certain way for a long time who've never needed to understand the detailed complexity of what makes 300 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,640 up the fabric which they're using ultimately for the end purpose. I mean, they're engineers in 301 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:42,320 terms of cell making and design and production and had a great conversation with the CEO of OneSales 302 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,440 and one sentence of his that really stuck with me, Dere de Luca, was the fact that there is no 303 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,080 school of cell making. You don't go and get educated as a cell making because you're passionate 304 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,760 and you learn in a lot. So it's a very unique and niche area, I think, not just within the 305 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:03,120 industry but globally in general. But what is your then ask or your ideal circumstance? So you've got 306 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:09,440 this, the potential for this to become a very, very scalable practical solution, presumably at 307 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:15,520 relatively low cost in comparison to what cell makers would have to facilitate themselves in 308 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:21,600 order to garner all of their materials back, store it, presumably clean it, either break it 309 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,720 down or reuse it or start up new lines of garments or bags or whatever else that we've also seen in 310 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,800 the industry, which ultimately then just prolongs that issue, doesn't it? Because they would still 311 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,280 then be responsible for the end of life, whatever that may be in however many years. 312 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,480 What is the ideal solution? If you could say, this is what the industry should look like in 12 313 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:46,160 months time, ideally, what would that be? So we're starting to see the collection points. So what we 314 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:53,520 would really like to see is all cell makers getting on board with customer cell collection points, 315 00:29:53,520 --> 00:30:00,080 add their lofts, whether that's a trade in scheme, something like that, however they work that, 316 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,880 so that their customers can bring back their old sales, drop them in at a sale loft, 317 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:11,120 and then we'll deal with them from there. We can then take them away for recycling. 318 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:17,600 Cell makers, we'd like to work with more of them on managing their waste streams, 319 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:23,120 because of course, when you produce a sale, there's quite a lot of waste. We can deal with all of 320 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:29,040 that so that doesn't have to go to landfill as well. So getting those systems and processes 321 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:35,120 in place in a practical sense with cell makers takes time. So we'd like to really 322 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,680 start the ball rolling and get that in place. Yeah. 323 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,760 Because there's a big difference obviously as all between the virgin cell material from production 324 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:50,080 that you're leading to, which is offcuts of various sizes, various materials. Pretty simple. In 325 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:57,040 comparison to old sales coming in, where you have to debatten, take all the bits and pieces off it, 326 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:02,400 I mean, that's in itself is part of a quite extensive work stream, isn't it, of getting a 327 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:09,760 sale ready for recycling at your end? Yes. So when we get a sale, it will strip off as much of the 328 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:17,680 metal components as we can. It'll then be chopped up, whether that's manually or we're looking at 329 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:23,120 shredders and finding much more mechanical ways of doing it now, which is easier rather than sitting 330 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:29,520 there for hours on end with scissors. So yeah, there is a cost to get rid of those sorts of things. 331 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:38,080 And we would like that not to sit with the customer. We'd like sale makers to try and 332 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:44,640 take that responsibility. But of course, we understand there's got to be a balance of the 333 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:50,960 customer might have to pay something to drop off a sale to get it to recycling. 334 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:56,080 But it's that very tricky area, isn't it? Because you also want to motivate the right kind of 335 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,800 behaviors. If I know it's going to cost me 100 quid to drop off my sale for recycling at my local 336 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:06,800 sale loft, and it's free to put it in landfill, we need almost like the entire ecosystem really tight 337 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:13,040 on this being a non land fillable material ultimately, or do you work with the local, 338 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,520 you know, like the local tip, etc, which is responsible for collecting a variety of different 339 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,600 materials and different buckets. Because it's a very, we know it's highly contested. We know that 340 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,800 also from from boats, people dump them because it's expensive, even to get it, you know, towed 341 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,880 up to a landfill site somewhere and have the keel pulled off and someone have that and whatever 342 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,480 else. Most people haven't got the time, the energy, nor they want to spend the money on it. 343 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,040 So it really needs to be quite a tight ecosystem, doesn't it, in terms of monitoring and kind of 344 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,120 regulation, dare I say, to make sure that we're actually driving the right behaviors. And it's 345 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,760 difficult because I know what you're leading to, Sam, is the fact that if I'm a sale maker, and I've 346 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,160 never got to deal with all of my anything that I've ever produced, I've got to take it back 347 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,360 and do it at the end of the life. It's going to cost me money, de facto. What most producers do 348 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,440 is pass that cost on to the customer, normally indirectly, so they'll put up the cost of the 349 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,000 prices, they'll put up the cost of sale making, they'll put up the cost of, you know, maintaining 350 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:11,520 and washing and everything else to help cover this new legislation requirement. So it is murky, 351 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,960 right? But I think the key point is it's coming, like it's here. 352 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,840 And I think the thing to balance that up with is that because this is coming, 353 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:28,080 it's a case of paying a small amount now to manage an existing solution, build my ecosystem today, 354 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:36,000 tomorrow, or run the risk that we're paying not just double triple the price to manage the sales 355 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:42,560 at the end of life, but 10, 15, 20, 100 times in some cases, because that ecosystem hasn't been built, 356 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,760 it hasn't been allowed to develop. And particularly in places like Germany, we're already seeing 357 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:54,160 explicit composites landfill bans and quite dramatic increase in landfill taxes in the rest 358 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,560 of the UK, Europe. Jumping these into landfill is not going to be a solution for more than a year 359 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:06,160 or two. It's a case of move now and expect to pay a bit tomorrow, or don't move and be 10 years behind. 360 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,560 10 years behind and broke, if not, is still in existence at all, the way things will go. I hear 361 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,880 you. I mean, it's it's crudely, it's business, isn't it? Let's say, for example, I drop a 362 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,520 bailed sale, you strip out the bits and pieces or the sale off does, it goes off for recycling, 363 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,960 it's turned into its crude elements again, elements being the wrong word, I appreciate talking to 364 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:30,560 a site and but the crude blocks again, what can you then do with those blocks? So you've alluded 365 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:36,960 to the fact that they can go off to be made into a low density PET. So you can then sell that those 366 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,960 building blocks effectively to different industries that can then make the most of them again. Is that 367 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:48,000 right? And back to the sale making sale cloth making industry presumably. Exactly. And our long 368 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,760 term vision and what would be absolutely fantastic is if we could break down a Dacron sale, for example, 369 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:03,680 break that down into its monomers, its building blocks, sell that or send that to a yarn manufacturer. 370 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:11,120 So then that would get re spun into new Virgin Dacron. And that would then get back into the 371 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:17,680 whole ecosystem again. So that is our absolute ideal scenario. Before we get there until we get 372 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:24,880 there, we'll get there eventually. These monomers, these compounds will just go back into the plastics 373 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:32,800 industry basically, and help reduce the amount of these building blocks that get synthesized from 374 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:38,640 crude oil. Choosing the Virgin. Exactly. We are also working with the University of Edinburgh, 375 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:46,160 Dr. Joanna Sadler's lab, the minute to look at other uses. So instead of putting new plastics 376 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:52,000 back into the plastics industry, we're doing a lot of work in the minute around ways of using those 377 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:58,560 as starting points to produce materials for the kind of where we see the future of the 378 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,360 particularly composites industry going for the kind of wider kind of commodity chemicals 379 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,320 market going. So she's done a lot of very exciting work with us over the last couple of years around 380 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:15,120 reducing the compounds like fresh catechia and vanilla. So compounds which are very useful for 381 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:21,760 making recyclable resins, for example, using genetically engineered organisms to effectively 382 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,880 consume those building blocks and produce out at the end of that these are much more highly 383 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,360 useful compounds such as a little bit more small scale, but that has been an innovative 384 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,080 UK funded project over the last, so it's running for the next couple of years. There are other 385 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,600 things that we can do rather than just produce the same plastics again, like we can produce 386 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,600 much more useful things for the materials for the future economy. I think what's been kind of 387 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,880 exciting about the work that you guys have done and are doing is the fact that not only is it 388 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:54,800 pioneering number one, it's ready ahead of a very important deadline for the industry number two, 389 00:36:54,800 --> 00:37:01,440 but you can see how it actually makes so tangible what a fully circular system should look like 390 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,120 that it can exist, that you're taking obviously products, reducing them down into their building 391 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:12,720 blocks to be made again into the same thing if necessary and also other things. And that's actually 392 00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:17,440 the concept of circular economy is very abstract at times because it's actually quite hard to 393 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,960 achieve as you appreciate. And whilst we've got sale makers such as one sales in particular who've 394 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,760 developed sales which they themselves can break down and recycle, actually being able to do this as 395 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,880 an industry wide regardless of where they come from, even if I wanted to make my own, you guys 396 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:38,960 could recycle it. And I think that's why it's exciting. I don't advocate legislation leading 397 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:45,200 the way, but I think it's incredibly useful in sort of kicking an industry society into action 398 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,360 on a particular topic because clearly we can't go on the way that we have been doing with the way 399 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,480 that we are consuming resources and the scale at which we're doing it now. 400 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,600 No, absolutely. And like you say, it's always hard, isn't it, when you've got that kind of balance 401 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:04,720 between legislation and of course we don't want it because it can be damaging. But at some point, 402 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:12,080 the industries need a kickstart, need to kind of get that motivation to become more sustainable, 403 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:17,040 to take that next big step forward. And I think that will hopefully when this comes in, that'll 404 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:25,280 give the marine industry that jumpstart to really look at what materials they're using and how we 405 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,160 can prevent them from going to landfill and creating circular economy. 406 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,360 And what is your ask of individual sailors and boaters currently? What would you like us to 407 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:40,640 be doing differently or thinking about? So I think some of that is putting pressure on 408 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:47,680 sailmakers to find a solution. So if you're going for a new sail, speak to the sailmakers, say, 409 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,480 right, what happens to my old sail? How much waste are you producing? Just ask those questions and 410 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:59,360 put that pressure on them as well. We're also starting a sail pledge. So what that is, is we 411 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:06,080 are asking people to let us know what sail they've got, kind of where they are, what they're made 412 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:12,560 from. That'll hopefully then give us a really good picture of how we get them, how we can collect them 413 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:19,040 from somebody in Coralwall to somebody in Edinburgh. And it's back to that thing of kind of reducing 414 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:25,280 that friction so that giving them to us is easier than putting them in landfill. So do we send a 415 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,080 truck around or do we do collection points at sailing clubs? Building that picture for us, 416 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:35,440 I think, is really important so that we can work out who we need to partner with in our 417 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:41,280 scale up efforts. And you're made to ask of the industry. I guess just question things, right? 418 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:47,360 I mean, question, what is it that you're using to build these sails? Is there a better material out 419 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:54,560 there? In the short term, doing research, yes, it may cost more, but in the long term, what's your 420 00:39:54,560 --> 00:40:02,400 business's priority? Is it making money in the short term? Is it building a fantastic sail? 421 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:10,320 Hopefully it's building a product that can last a long time and have minimal environmental impacts. 422 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:16,960 I think we're, especially as countries start to shift towards kind of net zero efforts, 423 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:23,760 businesses are going to have to transition to becoming more sustainable and having that 424 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,360 mentality shift of planet first rather than profits, really. 425 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,760 Disrupting business models as much as the industry as a whole, it's a big deal. 426 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,600 Yeah, not an easy thing to do. But I think it's like, as we said, and as we go back to it, 427 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:45,680 it almost is to close, it's almost this is coming. So it's either move or be moved. And the being 428 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:51,440 moved is going to be more expensive. It's going to be perhaps disenfranchising. You from the 429 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,560 industry is going to impact the business a hell of a lot by not thinking about this until it's 430 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:03,520 almost too late. So I think that's a very poignant, if not somewhat, quite intense note to end on is 431 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:08,080 this is the sailmaking industry in particular changing as it is also the boat building. And 432 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:13,600 otherwise, the marine industry is about to be significantly shaken up, obviously for the better 433 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:19,600 in the long term, and notably because also it has been demonized, if not increasingly demonized by 434 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,320 virtue of the materials it's using, but also because it's the right thing to do. And we can't 435 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:29,360 afford to do it the same way anymore. Can I ask one last question of the doctor, Joe? 436 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:36,720 I would be very remiss to not bring up the almost like the byproducts of the process and what can't 437 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:42,880 be reused. What is the waste from the system that you're looking to introduce? There is very, 438 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:49,360 very little waste from the system, which is the nice thing. So where you might deal with 439 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:56,080 a lot of our kind of competitors who run similar recycling solutions will end up with somewhere 440 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:04,240 between 20 and 50% of that becoming waste. We're comfortably into sub 10%. And we're already looking 441 00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:09,360 at the final kind of added extras where you potentially look at that just kind of tweaking 442 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,800 those conditions to drop that by 1%. So conveniently, very little waste to worry about. 443 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,960 It is comparatively, what do you do with the waste and what can be done with the waste? And I know 444 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:25,680 that's perhaps a slightly uncomfortable question, but this is chemical matter or let's say building 445 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:31,840 block matter, which is a mush that just can't be applied anywhere. Not really, actually, what you 446 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:39,040 end up with is a very small fraction of child formation. So effectively, the crispy bits at 447 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,760 the bottom of your frying pan, and you can obviously responsibly dispose of those in the 448 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:50,160 same way you would do with your waste from a frying pan. In practical terms, we're currently working 449 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:55,040 with a couple of partners to look at a couple of slightly kind of more elegant alternative 450 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,840 options than putting it in effectively food waste. So there are a couple of other options. 451 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:04,000 Practically, though, we won't try and minimize the amount of child formation generally, 452 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,760 because as you say, it's not wildly helpful, it's not wildly useful. 453 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,000 But it's impressive. I think just the notion of having less than 10% waste of the process that 454 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:17,120 you're going through, given the complexity of the subject matter, e.g. the sales, is pretty 455 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,360 impressive in itself. I'm very excited to continue this conversation and to see where 456 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:26,480 the industry ends up, certainly with the Linux 12 to say 18 months in particular. 457 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,400 It's exceptional technology that you're working on, and there's been an absolute pleasure speaking 458 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,600 with you today. So Dr. Joe Penhall Smith and Sam Penhall, thank you so much for your time and for 459 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,080 joining me on this episode of the Clean Sailors podcast. Thank you very much. It has been a pleasure. 460 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:46,240 You've been listening to the Clean Sailors podcast for information on all episodes. 461 00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:51,840 And for more about Clean Sailors, head to clean sailors.com. Thank you for listening and see you 462 00:43:51,840 --> 00:44:10,320 for the next episode.