1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:21,400 Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. Let's talk about sea, marine, sailing and 2 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,520 keep it clean. I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with 3 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,800 a passion for the health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with experts, innovators 4 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,720 and activists, all working towards improving the health of ICs, we're showcasing the people 5 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:45,560 and projects, changing the way things are done. 97% of all sails end up in landfill. 6 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,840 Sails are strong and durable, made to withstand the Earth's toughest environments. UV light, 7 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,440 water, wind. Made from complex synthetic materials, sails aren't formally recyclable 8 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,920 anywhere in the world and the majority end up in landfill or incineration. 9 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,800 Now we know that old sails can be upcycled into new things, furnishings, bags and now 10 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,560 even fashion garments. But what about the more humanitarian side of things for example? How 11 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,560 can sails be used beyond the everyday? And what are the biggest blockers preventing us 12 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:21,720 from making them more widespread and with this in mind? I'm joined today by Angela Abashir, 13 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:27,080 founder of Sail2Shelter and Hailing from California. Hello Angela, nice to see you again. How 14 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:32,640 are you? Good morning. I'm great. I'm so happy to have time with you. I am so glad that we 15 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,840 finally got to do this because we've had so many conversations where we've ruminated, 16 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:42,000 had inspired each other and got frustrated and it was an insane opportunity to connect 17 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,320 in the very first place but it's so very important now that we share what we've been talking 18 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:50,360 about and thinking about with a much wider audience because I think it's interesting 19 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,040 and every time I come away from our conversations I feel incredibly inspired. So thank you for 20 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,840 indulging me by having this as a podcast episode. I'm thrilled to be here. I can't wait for 21 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:05,000 this conversation. What's happening? So Angela, tell us a little bit about your background 22 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:11,760 and how you even came about being as interested and as expert as you are in sails. I was 23 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:17,000 so fortunate living in Southern California to have friends who were racing in Long Beach 24 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:23,440 to Catalina and there was room on a boat and I've never done anything like that in my life 25 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:29,040 and I got on a far 40 and that was it. It changed everything for me. It changed from 26 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,560 the minute I got on the boat, every single part of it, every single thing about it and 27 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:37,000 the sails. So I come from the garment industry. I'm a textile dumpy and then when I started 28 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,120 to ask about like what are we doing with the sails, what happens, where do these go and 29 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,080 then it was just this blank and then I just thought, well, that's, I mean there's sail 30 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:50,720 bags, lots of people are making great bags but to me it was the size of them. I started 31 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:57,720 sailing on a big boat. I mean I went straight from looking at sails or occasionally sailing 32 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:04,280 to being under these massive sails. So it was just look, right? There was no like, oh 33 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,080 we're going to take this little thing and this little thing and we'll work up to it 34 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,320 and then you sort of don't think of it because it's just a piece of an equipment and it's 35 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,640 part of what you use as your tool. That's what happened to me and obviously it's taken 36 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:15,640 over. 37 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:20,800 Sould, sealed, delivered. It's really poignant and incredibly pertinent that you say that 38 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:25,560 in terms of it being a tool. I think we think about that in every day life and certainly 39 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,840 you know a lot of sports and pleasures and pastimes have, you know, whether it's a vehicle 40 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:35,320 as such as a boat or a car is a composition of a variety of different tools in a way doing 41 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,960 different jobs. They come together to create that finite thing which can be used and enjoyed 42 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,960 and raced as you've experienced. But we're not actually necessarily thinking about those 43 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,240 as individual composite pieces at the end of it and how they can be sort of pulled apart 44 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,560 again and reused or otherwise. 45 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,200 And you mentioned something which I think is really, really cool because I know that 46 00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:00,040 we've made a lot of bags. There's some fantastic things and really cool, fashionable, aesthetically 47 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:07,080 useful, good looking, furniture, furnishing pieces going around. And yes, it's an opportunity 48 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,800 for end of life in one respect, but it's not obviously the ultimate solution. But as part 49 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,920 of your journey, you actually undertook that element too. You tried that outright because 50 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,960 I remember this fantastic collaboration that you had in New York which was very much around 51 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:27,120 bringing the material into the mainstream somehow, which was the fashion industry, right? This 52 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:32,440 is a resource which can transcend a variety of industries and you explored it with fashion 53 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,360 as part of your journey so far. How did that come about? 54 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,400 So the fashion part of my journey is the natural part. That's what I come from. So naturally 55 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:46,600 I want to use all these things in that space. That particular collaboration was with a really 56 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,440 great sustainable fashion department store in New York City. The hardest part about that 57 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:56,520 for me was having things made in this country. And part of what I think is the incredible 58 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:03,840 opportunity with the sale material is the value that it has to create jobs which teach 59 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:09,240 skills. If you go into any of the sale manufacturers' websites and look under career opportunities, 60 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,720 just count how many sale makers they need. They're not all using a sewing machine anymore 61 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,360 because of the technology, but I think that what a cool opportunity to be able to, in 62 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,600 all the cities that are overrun with all the sale material, why are we not putting kids 63 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,880 who live on the street or people who have disabilities into an education program so 64 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,400 that they can learn to sew and then they can make the bags. It's literally an ecosystem 65 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:37,040 waiting for some infrastructure. That's all it is. Every material has a different perfect 66 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:43,280 use for it. So it seems like a heavy lift, but if there is a desire or the infrastructure 67 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:46,960 to make sure that we keep stuff out of landfill, then it really isn't that hard to do. 68 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,440 You mentioned something there which we've got to tease apart and that's the different 69 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:55,560 materials for different things. So I appreciate it and I'm guilty of it too. Resale is a platform, 70 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,760 for example, that sets up very much about connecting sailors in their old sails full stop 71 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,360 with projects that need them. And actually what we're not perhaps articulating clearly 72 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:11,320 enough is the difference between a canvas sale and a Dakron sale and a spinnaker, all 73 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:17,160 of which have unique properties and then use for different things, different malleability, 74 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,840 different textures, different weights. How could you see in a perfect world us looking 75 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:29,920 at sales not as this big bucket, but rather as a collective for such a variety of useful 76 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,160 textiles effectively? I think that we can create at the point 77 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:40,080 of sale a system where the sales are returned and where we don't burden the manufacturer 78 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:47,240 in their little loft with waste. So we need waste bins and an organization like ours that 79 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,920 will be responsible for collecting them. And then we need a simple facility, right? We 80 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,360 deconstruct them, take out all the hardware and all the rigging. Some of that rigging 81 00:06:55,360 --> 00:07:00,400 can be used for other things. Over at Seabags, very happy to just make sure they get all 82 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:05,600 the Dakron sales they need. We can take out so much of the pain point of that by creating 83 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:11,600 a system underneath our incredible industry to take responsibility for all the waste that 84 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,200 we're putting in it. I've also proposed that we do a subscription 85 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:20,600 model with, let's say, a J70 class, right? The J70 rips through a Dakron sale if you're 86 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,840 with an active fleet. We all know how many sales you're going through. It is an attitudinal 87 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:31,520 and behavioral change where if we create systems that will incentivize that the sales come 88 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:36,560 back to us, then everybody's happy. You get a snappy white sale that you're super proud 89 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,680 of on the start line. We all know how that feels. We get to move these onto their next 90 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:46,200 use. Nobody's going to stop making them. Nobody's going to stop racing. So let's create a system 91 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:52,120 so that everybody wins. That's Dakron. And I think that's an easy Dakron thing. Laminates, 92 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:57,800 it depends on the sale. I mean, 3Di technology has changed the game on that. We got a lot 93 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,240 of laminate sales we got to work through. And different sales are in different parts 94 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,720 of the world. You know what I mean? They're not racing a bunch of J70s in some parts of 95 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,720 the world. I've got one of the largest single mass sales in the world. They're all different. 96 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:14,120 So it takes a sophisticated system to understand all the materials. And then we got people 97 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,600 walking on the moon. I mean, don't tell me that we can't figure out what to do with waste. 98 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,880 I don't know if you saw it on Instagram the other day, but I watched this truck drive 99 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:29,040 in front of my house last week and rip up in a five foot long, two inch wide. They just 100 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,120 ripped up the concrete, threw it into a truck that was traveling in front of them and then 101 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,280 came with another one and laid down a new road. And people tell me we can't deconstruct 102 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:37,280 a sale. 103 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,680 I hear you. You hit the nail on the head with one word and that was incentivized. And I 104 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:47,680 guess as a combination, the sweet spot is between almost incentivizing and legislating 105 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:51,680 and providing such an opportunity. And you mentioned something though, which was fascinating 106 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:57,320 in its skills and whether it's on any political agenda, skills and employment is always top 107 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,600 top priority. So how is this an opportunity to be creating something new? The interesting 108 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,280 thing it doesn't actually have to be within the marine industry. And I think that's what's 109 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:12,240 so exciting about it is that perhaps broadening our perspective away from, okay, my industry 110 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,680 creates waste. Therefore, I need to find a reuse for it. Fair enough. There's still needs 111 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:20,600 to be manufacturer responsibility, right? We should be creating things that can be either 112 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,760 broken down without creating more waste, can be reused again, ultimately limiting landfill 113 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:30,320 and incineration, right? Total goals. But it doesn't necessarily mean that my industry 114 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,520 has to be the one that reuses it. And with your approach, obviously looking at it as 115 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,840 a textile, there are an infinite number of industries that could make the most of it 116 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,080 as a material and as a resource. 117 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,240 I'm using it as a construction material. We're probably at about 60,000 square feet 118 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,560 of shade at the Humane Society on Mali. So we're going to start construction and we're 119 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:55,400 using local bamboo. So we're using local materials and sales that are retired superyacht 120 00:09:55,400 --> 00:10:01,960 sales that lived in Lahaina. So we're using it at scale and it's going to last for a really, 121 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:03,560 really, really long time. 122 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,600 You've mentioned, obviously, not it just as a material and a textile, but that you're 123 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:12,840 using it for construction. And this is fundamentally what's so, I think, special about your approach 124 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:18,200 to this is that the name of your business effectively is sale to shelter. How did that 125 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:19,200 come about? 126 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,120 Well, the shelter part was really inspired during the pandemic. When the pandemic hit 127 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,160 and we were all sort of, it was this shelter in place, we were hearing words we had never 128 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,840 heard, we were experiencing fear we had never felt before. And I happened to know that there 129 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,960 were warehouses full of superyacht sales all over the place in LA. And I was thinking, 130 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,840 well, I mean, I'm kind of looking around at my industry, like, are we not all just going 131 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:47,400 to go help? Like, because we can't. No. But I started calling architects and engineers 132 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:53,360 and trying to find real solutions. And I found an architect who sailed a TP-52 and he got 133 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,120 it. And that was four years ago. And they've taught me a lot about the construction industry 134 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,680 and how responsible the construction industry has to be. I mean, we have a very unique material 135 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:08,400 in our hands that does not go through any sort of testing, doesn't have to, doesn't have 136 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:13,920 any of the same restrictions. And I appreciate that it's been that way for so long. And I 137 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,520 appreciate that we haven't had the same requirements for standards. And I'm not asking people to 138 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:23,280 change the way they're doing business. But with a little bit more transparency and a 139 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,280 little bit loosening, we can do a whole lot of good with this stuff because the work that 140 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,720 we've done and the people that we've inspired to work with us. And the thing that's so cool 141 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,720 about a sale is that we love sailing, right? We love the whole big picture. But when you 142 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:42,600 give someone who's never seen it before, who has the mind of an engineer or an architect, 143 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:48,200 a piece of 3Di material, it's 10 by 10, they go mad. I'm just telling you, I don't know 144 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,840 if you ever do one of my favorite things to do at a dinner party is everybody get up and 145 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:56,680 change seats. The point is your perspective is different. You are going to have a different 146 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:01,640 experience when you come to it from a different place. So come to it from a different place 147 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:06,040 and go, oh my gosh, what could I do? And then you go, well, but they're microplastics and 148 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,960 the this and then that. And you're like, okay, I can solve all that because when I'm going 149 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,480 to get at the end of the day, something I could not ever get anywhere else. Nobody else 150 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,440 is going to go make material with Kevlar in it. I mean, why would we? We don't have to. 151 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,040 Again, it's the way of thinking, isn't it? What you pointed out and actually so many 152 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,080 of the conversations that I've had, the key thing that comes out is the way of thinking. 153 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,640 It's like design outwaste and yours is sort of get up and just change seats, look at it 154 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,640 from a different perspective entirely. And actually we may not be able to. So the marine 155 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:38,280 industry may not be able to look at it. They're not going to design outwaste. I believe in 156 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,600 the second use economy more than anything else. It happens to be in the marine industry 157 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,640 where I'm standing. So let's not even think about it like that, right? Let's think about 158 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:53,880 it as we make so much stuff. We human beings all over the world. And it's okay when there's 159 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,800 only a few human beings, go ahead and make your stuff. But then we fell in love with 160 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,920 plastic and then we kept having babies and now we have an incredible population and plastic 161 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,200 all over the place. And I don't know what to say, but it's all gone crazy. All I'm saying 162 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:11,120 is that yes, design outwaste. But I've taken the circular economy courses. That is hard. 163 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,440 That is a science that's going to take years and years and years. And I love all the conversations 164 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:22,440 going on about it. Please. In the meantime, we have a mountain of things that we don't 165 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:27,680 take responsibility for. And ours is the coolest one. But I do feel like we're getting there. 166 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:32,160 I think by the end of this year, I'm going to have some massively impressive installations 167 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,160 standing up that will tell the story. And the story is a really big, massive, beautiful 168 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,840 story. And then we have this incredible technology where we can tell these stories about sailing. 169 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:47,120 So is it about sailing? It's really not. It's really about being responsible humans and 170 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:52,320 helping people who need help. So sail to shelter was about let's go create shelters to help 171 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:58,400 people social distance during the pandemic. And the more we learn and the more I got told 172 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,640 no, more obstacles that came in the way and more problems we solve, right? That's what 173 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,440 I do. It's I just keep getting the problem out of the way to make way for this opportunity 174 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,400 for us to really do something special. And it isn't going to happen for the pandemic, 175 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:17,080 but there's a crisis every day. And I get called every single day for help. World Central 176 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,480 Kitchen calls me every time they go someplace new. Do you have any sales there? Is there 177 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,720 anything we can do there? So the way it works is that I can use an infrastructure that's 178 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:31,120 in place with a global inventory of material. And we're in World Central Kitchen calls me 179 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,840 and says, I need something in Spain. I have partners and relationships and material that 180 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:41,320 I can get there usually sooner, cheaper, and it doesn't go waste. And people whose lives 181 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:46,120 have just been completely upended, we get to help them. So that's how to shelter. 182 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,000 It's incredible. I mean, I understand what you're about and also what you're achieving 183 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,800 is incredible. And I appreciate that. I'm sure you feel it at times the frustration 184 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,720 of the pace in which we're collectively thinking about this. But just on Maui in particular, 185 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,560 because I appreciate you know, sales can be a grand construction material. And you said 186 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:07,680 sort of the partitioning and otherwise the sort of COVID distancing. But with Maui, 187 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,920 it's really important that we talk about this because this was the deadliest US wildfire 188 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:18,120 in over a century, which devastated this little Hawaiian island in 2023. Now, killed, I think 189 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:23,640 102 people, and there are 27,000 people who needed aid, for example. I mean, this was 190 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:29,240 a huge scale disaster on an island, which arguably any place shouldn't be able to have 191 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,920 to deal with that or have the capacity to deal with it. But we're talking the island 192 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,520 states normally really don't have the capacity to deal with it, particularly in Polynesia 193 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:42,240 and say the Caribbean. So what have you so far managed to achieve with sale to shelter 194 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,080 in Maui specifically? Because I think this is a really important part of your story. 195 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:54,200 Maui is a complicated, very sad, and also very brilliant experience and place and pain. 196 00:15:54,200 --> 00:16:01,080 And it's probably not a great example. It's a great example of the chaos of humanitarian 197 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:07,720 aid of people in pain, communities that lose everything. The Maui part that is exciting 198 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:14,280 is that we have established relationships with local bamboo farmers. And we're using 199 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:20,880 sale material and bamboo to create structures that will last for decades. When you go into 200 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:27,360 help in a disaster area with what we do, I'm not trying to provide housing. I'm trying 201 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:34,640 to provide wraparound services and big spaces. We can go and stand up big. We can also create 202 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:39,640 refugee camps. Like, we know where natural disasters are going. We know where we can 203 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:45,200 move people. I can go build a refugee camp. I've got 109 super yacht sales in Spain. 204 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:50,160 They're ready to go. So there is this really beautiful thing that we can go clean out all 205 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:57,360 these warehouses with this sale material and help people who have been involuntarily displaced. 206 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,320 And that number around the world is exponentially growing because of climate, because of the 207 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:08,480 wars that were under. I mean, I've sent material into Ukraine. We have rigging that goes into 208 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:14,240 Ukraine on a regular basis out of Spain. There's a way for us inside this industry to use the 209 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:19,380 things that give us so much joy for help. I'm fully committed to figuring that out and working 210 00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:25,160 with everyone around the world that can help. I mean, you and I, we're doing the same thing. 211 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:30,440 This is why when I found you, I was like, okay, this is it. There is a global group of us 212 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,080 who sees we have these incredible tools. And I also come from marketing, right? I come 213 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:40,600 from insights in human behavior. And so it's like, what is the human behavior around this, 214 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:45,320 right? And how do we just establish trust with that super yacht community so that it 215 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:51,040 just is endemic to sailing, that your sale becomes something else. Holly, that's our 216 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,520 goal. And everybody understands that it's this now, and it's something else next. And 217 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,680 it's your responsibility to get it someplace so that it gets to its next thing. I'll tell 218 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:05,320 you another thing I've proposed to incentivize the behavior, a digital cut card, everybody 219 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:10,120 makes things differently and they have different QR systems and SKUs and the whole thing. I 220 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:13,400 needed to know how big it is. I need to know what material it's made of, what year it's 221 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,680 made, the manufacturer helps me. I don't need to know all your secret adhesives and all 222 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,800 your secret things that make it go faster. Because I already know, because I've already 223 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,640 done two years of research in a textile engineering lab, I already know what I can't use it for 224 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:33,320 and I already know it's contaminated beyond use. But it will help me to know the size 225 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:38,160 and the material because that way, I mean, now I'm opening these things out and doing 226 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,540 all, I mean, obviously you could open it up and it could have a sale or it could have 227 00:18:41,540 --> 00:18:46,000 condition is variable, but it would help to know what it is before I even have to unpack 228 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,600 it. And I've asked them, can we do it like a microchip for an animal, right? I just want 229 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:55,120 to insert it into the sale so that I can read it. You can read it. Anybody around the world 230 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:58,880 can read it with a chip reader. And then we can know what to do with it. And it can be 231 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,720 like, oh, it's Dacron, it goes to that collection place or it's that you see. 232 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,080 I think what's really fantastic is sort of that, I'm going to say seismic because it 233 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,600 is considering where society appears to be currently, all of us involved in that that 234 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:18,400 seismic shift around what we're using now is going to become something else. And that 235 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,200 the in that has an innate responsibility for pretty much looking after something as 236 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,200 long as we can kind of goes against that. Not always. Well, not always. It may not be 237 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,440 able to. But if we knew that something was going to have another life, whether it's a 238 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,360 mobile phone or whether it's the glass that I've got in my hand, we do operate very differently. 239 00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:41,160 If you think it's going to be trash, it's going to go into a landfill, I'll just buy 240 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,320 a new one. I think it is a slightly different mentality to know, oh, hey, when I'm done 241 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,880 with this phone, or when I fancy an upgrade, or whatever happens to it, it's going to be 242 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,320 something else. So I will approach it with a slightly different way. So I would like 243 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:58,480 to think we would. But also the element of waste doesn't go anywhere. Once something 244 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,440 is created, it doesn't disappear. 245 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,440 This is the part we just ever talked about. We just didn't ever talk about it because 246 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,000 it was ever a problem. But then that pile just kept growing and growing and growing 247 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,400 and growing. And you're right. And I love the idea that like, because what if you have 248 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,160 a J70 and you don't ever race, if you're not in an active fleet, you don't want to be 249 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,840 part of a subscription model. If you are, you want to pay $10,000 a year and get all 250 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,640 the sales you want. And what that helps us do, Holly, is it helps us start to plan our 251 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,280 inventory. Because I'll know that for an active fleet out of Newport, Rhode Island, how many 252 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,720 sales I'll get a year. And I'll know out of a J70 class out of Italy, how many sales 253 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,680 I'll get out of here. And then C-bags will know how many bags they can make and sell 254 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:37,680 or whoever it is. 255 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,480 The thing I'm just, just that it's so refreshing is just the transparency of conversation around 256 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,320 this. It's not a, oh, hey, how many sales do you happen to go through season with this 257 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,600 sort of query response side eyes? Don't really want to say because they're obviously going 258 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,280 to land sale currently. It's like, hey, we know that we're racing. So we're pushing 259 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,200 these things that are fantastically designed to the absolute limit. They're going to blow. 260 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:05,840 And the racing circuits, obviously the most fantastic opportunity and sport and spectatorship. 261 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,160 But there is waste. There's no point in us denying it. So it's rather like, hey, let's 262 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,880 be transparent from the off as you're suggesting, knowing how many you're aiming to use a year. 263 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,520 Then you know how many you've got tend to use as a resource for the second life, lining 264 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:25,720 up the sort of tertiary layer in the, in the whole puzzle, which is those individuals, 265 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:31,880 organizations, projects, businesses that can then rely on that resource being quite sustainable 266 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:37,680 incoming. Because I think one of the biggest things that I found with resale, for example, 267 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:43,320 is the ad hoc nature with which sales are donated. So obviously dealing with the every, every 268 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,360 sailor, the layperson that say, I could go through a sale once in 10 years, someone else 269 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:52,560 might go through a spinnaker every season. And actually the reliability of that resource 270 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:58,680 for any industry looking to rely on it is tricky. So what you're doing is focus on those 271 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,760 knowns that we know within those classes, those areas of the industries that have a very reliable 272 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:09,280 consistent use of sales, which can then become quite a useful and substantial resource with 273 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,120 which to make other products. You said something which I wrote down because I wanted to challenge 274 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:17,640 you on it. And you'd said, I'm not asking them to change their business. And my question 275 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:24,880 is why not? How can we achieve this without changing business? Because what happens is 276 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,560 you've described various industries that have done this quite successfully, construction, 277 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:35,400 major one, the regulation, the legislation around it is really tight. Obviously a huge 278 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:40,560 industry, billions and billions globally, our homes, our workplaces, the infrastructure 279 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,840 upon which we rely day to day, appreciate sailing as a bit more niche, the marine industry 280 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:50,440 is a bit more niche. But they had to change the way they did business. I think in order 281 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,280 to do things differently, often we do need to change the way we do business may not be 282 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:59,760 an overhaul, but all we not be saying, hey, but this is the reality in order to get there, 283 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,400 we do have to change some things. It could be as simple as putting a chip in or like 284 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:09,200 you said, being able to at least all the sale loss or producers of sales, taking back even 285 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:14,920 if not to use end of life sales, there has to be change. No, no, there does. What I can't 286 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,720 be is the person who keeps my knee on everybody's throat. But I mean, yeah, there has to be 287 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:25,680 change. I am willing to create a reclaim system. I'm willing to work to create a global reclaim 288 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,000 system. But I also know because I've been working in the Supriot industry now for long 289 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,440 enough that these are relationships that take place years in advance. I need to be at a 290 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:40,520 dock. They all know when it's coming. So a collection and retrieval and figure out some 291 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:45,160 of the major hub cities and maybe we do some consolidation of some of those things. Yeah, 292 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,400 I do think that they need to do a card for me and I'm going to put pressure on that. 293 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,400 Because it's too much work and it doesn't need to be that much work. Why can't we make this 294 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,320 one thing easier? I'm not asking for your secrets. I'm not asking for your formulas. 295 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,040 I'm not trying to reverse engineer. But yeah, they should do that to make that easier. And 296 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,520 I'm in conversations with one of the manufacturers to do that. And I have a great relationship 297 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,960 with a few of the lofts in Southern California who work with me on collections. We do some 298 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,360 of those things. It's taken me a long time and I appreciate the time it's taken me because 299 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:18,160 it's just I've had to establish trust and I hope I have. 300 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,240 It's something that you're achieving incredible things. I know that you are and I very much 301 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,840 appreciate the journey that you've been on because I think when you're pioneering something 302 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,240 and encouraging others who are long established in their ways to do the same, it's no small 303 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:36,520 feat. It's colossal. It is the surface pushing his rock up a hill. But it's also I think 304 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,560 an incredibly important time because you can feel the change starting to happen. You can 305 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,080 see the change starting to happen. And honestly, if something has never been an issue before, 306 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,920 why would the industry have thought about it any differently? So I think it does take 307 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,560 to your very first point on this area of the topic is get up and change seats. So it's 308 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,680 taking people from outside of the industry to look at it very differently and say, Hey, 309 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,680 Cracky, that's really cool. I could effectively have a completely free natural resource in 310 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:08,200 the Verticommas to create my product, business, whatever. I mean, what industry can do that? 311 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:13,600 What producer can get all of the raw materials for free, which ultimately is something that 312 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,240 at the moment exists because no one knows what to do with end of life sales. 313 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:23,520 Okay, well, that's a whole another hour long conversation about the free part. So my thinking 314 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,320 on this is that I don't want it to be thought of as waste and I don't want it to be thought 315 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:37,880 of as free because it is not free. I chose to become a nonprofit in this country to incentivize 316 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:44,480 a tax donation for US Yacht owners to donate their sales. And it works okay. I have also 317 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:51,400 found that there are enough for a good program. They'll do a sale drive for me or something 318 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,200 or they'll do a collection for me. That's a nomenclature thing for me that I get funny 319 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:00,480 about calling them waste or about calling them free. So inside baseball for us here 320 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,120 and you and I've talked about this before, I want there to be a round table and I've 321 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:07,440 said this to the manufacturers. I've said this to the folks at the mentioned polyan. I'm 322 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,320 like, let's put everybody in a room. Let's put those of us who want to see change happen 323 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,520 in a room and let's start to work together. And if it means that we have a very broad 324 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:23,320 goal or a very niche goal and it takes a very long time, I don't care, but we need to be 325 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:30,280 standing together. I sent you not long ago, the World Sailing Association, their very first 326 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:35,400 sustainability report. I couldn't wait to read it. I couldn't wait to see what the plan 327 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,120 was for sales. There isn't one. There isn't even a conversation about sales. So we need 328 00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:44,400 to be at the table. So let's go make the change happen. I just put us at the table and just 329 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,640 like give us responsibility for the second use or third or fourth, whatever it is, but 330 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:49,640 give it to us. 331 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,200 I'm really in tears because I was almost slightly taken aback by your response there, 332 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,360 talking between friends about the whole waste of the free thing because obviously as it 333 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:04,960 exists today with initial approach to this issue, opportunity is the creation of furnishing 334 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,920 bags now fashion garments a lot. And it's a sale is wanting to feel better and having 335 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,240 the opportunity to do something better than taking the old sale to the dump. So it's a 336 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:23,880 moral and ethical win in some ways for the individual to donate to sale. And for organisations 337 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,160 who can then make the most of it, it is a free resource. Currently it's something that 338 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:33,040 they do not have to pay for. If you're in any other industry, like making this again 339 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,160 glass that I'm holding, you've got to pay for it. You've got to buy your own materials 340 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,840 to create something. But I appreciate that that too goes in the whole almost like the 341 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:47,360 paradigm shift in the mentality change, which you're guessing at and that's the something 342 00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:50,640 will always need to become something else. Even if we don't want it to be a dust, it 343 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,360 becomes waste when we stick it in a landfill. It's something that is no longer deemed to 344 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:59,440 be useful to an individual society. So it stays in this hole on the ground, right? But 345 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,600 obviously what you're trying to do is change it from waste to, again, just a material. 346 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,400 So it stays, it's going to be useful for something else. 347 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,080 Transformation. It is the knowing creature. It is how we think of it. It is just how we 348 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,560 think of it. So there are advantages to calling it free and there are disadvantages to calling 349 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,840 it free. And I don't think that's fair. And the things that we build and construct anybody 350 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,360 would want to, I mean, we build and construct beautiful things that make people feel good. 351 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:31,560 We construct things that make people, I don't want you to be in a safe and it's a wonderful 352 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,240 experience because standing under a super yacht sail, even when it's not dragging a ship across 353 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,920 the ocean, it's pretty cool. They're very cool things. 354 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:46,040 So I think it's perfect because like anything, I think we've become so detached from the 355 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:51,160 value of so much that even as you said, there's a lot of technology that goes into it, but 356 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:59,600 still it's there is anyone sail as an example as a result of millions of hours, thousands 357 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:07,920 of years of history, many different hands, brains, teams, countries, cultures, refining 358 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:14,840 something or various somethings in terms of different materials into globally, yeah, 359 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,520 into an ultimate product which is deemed to be useful and that we buy so much of and 360 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,720 then ultimately is currently left without some formal utility once it's deemed to be 361 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,280 not useful on a boat. You're right, nothing is free. It may come to you without you having 362 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,320 to transactionally purchase it in the bluntest way. 363 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,840 It's valuable. I call it and I call it for the second use 364 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:42,760 economy success metrics that we need a different set of success metrics for what we're doing 365 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:48,440 because if my material is free, my cost of deconstruction goes into my cost of manufacturing, 366 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,120 which is an extra step, which becomes your cost of goods, that transportation and that 367 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,840 cost of deconstruction, trust me, I can tell you that some sales require heavy equipment 368 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:05,360 to move. I have moved sales that have never been on a crane and on a boat and now they're 369 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,080 sitting on a yacht. We have deconstructed massive, massive things. 370 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,120 Like you said, all the hardware within them as well. That in itself is what you're saying, 371 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,560 actually taking them apart, stripping out the bits and pieces, finding another use for 372 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:24,000 even those if you can do recycling them. Yeah, it's an expensive time and energy as well 373 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,240 as cost. I very much appreciate that. I stand somewhat corrected. 374 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,560 Well, it's because there's a cost to taking it to the landfill and that's been the system. 375 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,480 The system is they come off the boat, they go onto a trailer and go straight to landfill 376 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,760 and now I stand in the middle of that and I want us to think about it. I want us to 377 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,600 change the way we think about them as it's a sale now. It's like somebody said this should 378 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:51,320 be called second wind. We should have a second wind brand because, but let's go have these 379 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,920 conversations. I just want to go be having this conversation with as many people who 380 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,400 will have it. Tell me why we can't do it and I'm happy to have the conversation about why 381 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,920 it can't happen. I want to capture what you've just said, 382 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:08,760 which is it's a sale now. It's almost like a roll of fabric next with limitless possibilities. 383 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,800 That's it. Ail is not the finite. Like you said, it's the way you approach it is the 384 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:19,760 textile. Very powerful. What's your main ask of the marine industry going forward? 385 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,920 Somebody have the leadership and the courage to come run a program with me. Somebody step 386 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:30,600 into this. I won't be the hero they will be. We will make someone look like a star. If 387 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,480 they will come and say, we're going to be the first ones to commit to this. Somebody's 388 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,520 doing it for billboards. So they take down billboards and they turn them into bags. If 389 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,560 you've seen this company, but I've talked to the CEO and you know what he said to me? 390 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:47,080 Broke my heart. He said he lives here in Santa Barbara. So we were connected and he said, 391 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,480 if I could do this all over again, I wouldn't. He said it's been really, really hard. The 392 00:31:51,480 --> 00:32:00,600 system isn't made for us to reuse. The system is made for take, make, throw away. So everything 393 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:06,320 that we're trying to put in place is so hard because the system is not there for us to 394 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:12,120 go collect the stuff that we've made and then reproduce it. It has to be, we have to put 395 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,920 money and we have to put attention into this step. We cannot go straight from linear to 396 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:22,040 circular without paying attention to the ship we made. That's all I'm here to focus on. 397 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,640 And I'm only talking about sales. Somebody else can talk about all the other stuff and 398 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,520 rigging it. Rigging is in the sale, but it's a lot, but it's so valuable. I mean, we're 399 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:36,520 talking about shredding it and making surfboards and we're making fences and wind fences and 400 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:41,040 every other creative, awesome human who puts their hands on it goes, what's all the black 401 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,720 stuff inside? And you're like, oh, that's carbon fiber. So then it's just a whole new 402 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,760 the world opens up and people go crazy. I don't want the sales to ever be in jeopardy. 403 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,160 I don't know if the industry feels like we have this big bed secret that we have this 404 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,760 incredible material that's so valuable and we don't want anybody to know. But I don't 405 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,240 know that they're thinking like that. I just think that if you don't get on a boat, you've 406 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,280 never seen it. And most people have never been on a boat. And of the people that have 407 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,240 ever been on a boat, very few have been on a boat that's ever seen that material. Do 408 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,080 you see what I'm saying? It's like, I haven't seen it. So it doesn't have to be thrown away 409 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,280 though I'm saying. So I want somebody that has the courage or the interest or get in 410 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,400 this with me and somebody started a program. You know who I want? I'm with the 52 Super 411 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:27,760 Series. I mean, I want somebody with a voice. I want North to do the J70 subscription with 412 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,560 one team. Let's test it with one. Let's pilot it. Let's see if it works. Let's see if we 413 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:38,280 can make the money. Somebody might make more money. It's like the documentary storytelling 414 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:44,940 when you open up a garage and look in it and all you see is 20 by 20 foot storage unit 415 00:33:44,940 --> 00:33:49,760 just piled to the ceiling and we have homeless people. It just doesn't make any sense. 416 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,600 I think also on the point of value, and you're talking about super yacht sales in particular, 417 00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:00,320 we're talking a hundred grand worth of main sole at a time. I mean, these things cost 418 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,080 virgin sales and an ordinary amount of money, not least because of the size and the technology 419 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:11,400 that goes into them. So it is almost a real pity and a real shame if we aren't able to 420 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:17,160 reasonably globally provide another opportunity for us to use this stuff. Because like we 421 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,040 said, just because it's thrown away doesn't mean it's waste. And it also maintains enough 422 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,240 integrity to be valuable to lots of different industries and lots of different constructions 423 00:34:25,240 --> 00:34:28,880 and lots of different things. So it really is, sounds like really is about just connecting 424 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:34,520 the dots. I say just rationally, it appears simple. I appreciate the reality is somewhat 425 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,240 more treacherous, but not impossible. 426 00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:42,120 No, because I feel like also we don't have to be everything to everyone. I can have a 427 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:47,720 very niche customer, I can have World Central Kitchen or any other rescue, and we only have 428 00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:52,400 what we have. I don't need to provide tense to everybody. What I need to do is use up 429 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,800 what they have. You see, it's reverse engineering. I now have the material and when it's gone, 430 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,900 I can't sell anymore. But until it's gone, I have a problem. The chicken can only lay 431 00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:05,880 so many eggs, right? Like this is what I have. Because I can't tell you that I can give you 432 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,640 a hundred more super yacht sales every single year, we're going to let these all just get 433 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:15,480 thrown away. Stop. This is a fantastic opportunity. As always, I'm feeling very inspired. Somewhat 434 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:21,080 sad is not the right word, but somewhat newly the sadness to me. It's been said from the 435 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:22,080 problem. 436 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:28,000 The problem is a problem. Together. I want to know and just to close is where would you 437 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:33,800 like to be in say five years? I know it's a very arbitrary timeline, but just give me 438 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:40,000 a clue. Where do you want to see the industry sell to shelter in a few years time? I want 439 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,960 sale to shelter to become in five years to be endemic to sailing that nobody has to 440 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,000 store another sale in their garage, that we have enough of the system in place and it 441 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:57,240 might be Holly that it's a service and maybe it becomes a tax on the sale that your loft 442 00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:02,280 is going to be a sale to shelter loft. You're going to pay a tax on your not much, just enough 443 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,440 for a 20 foot container in the front of somebody's whatever. They fill it up when it's full, we 444 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:12,560 come and get it. There'll be one in California. Let's say there's San Diego LA, maybe not 445 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,840 in San Francisco. I don't get enough sale, but you know what I mean? Like there's a, 446 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,680 there's hub, new port, and then we do the consolidation thing. And wherever it is in 447 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,520 the world where these majors, cities are in five years, they just all end up in these 448 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:29,520 transformation centers, which I think can also be fantastically creative places. At the end 449 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,280 of the day, it's going to be the Christopher Rayburn. You know, he has those amazing like 450 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:34,960 the lab. That's all I want. 451 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,000 Just a closing sort of thought is that obviously in Europe, there's quite a lot of work being 452 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:46,800 done legally and also selling up sort of frameworks around end of life materials, notably around 453 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,880 say end of life boats, the actual GRP and FRP. And France in particular have relatively 454 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:57,960 recently launched new legislation, which ultimately puts the tax on the person who buys a boat 455 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:03,240 first, so new boats. And that tax goes towards recovery of the boat and dealing with the 456 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:08,120 boat at end of life. And we've seen obviously a lot of different legislatures playing around 457 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:14,000 with the concept of if you produce a product, you ought to be responsible for what happens 458 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:20,080 to end of life. And as you know, no, Coca Cola isn't yet set up to itself recycle or recollect 459 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:25,200 all of its glass and all of its cams to then sort them, process them and turn them into 460 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,440 another product. But it's still a gray area. It's still an area which has been worked on 461 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:35,120 from a legal perspective because is it the producer's responsibility to look after something 462 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:40,400 at end of life? Is it the person who buys it, the taxpayer effectively on what happens to 463 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,280 end of life? It's muddy, but it's fascinating. I mean, it's really fascinating. Everything 464 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:46,280 not for grabs. 465 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:52,080 But why don't we now insert the third option because we can be the place, right? Then everybody 466 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,240 has an option right now, there is no option. So it's a really painful point. Either way, 467 00:37:56,240 --> 00:38:00,480 it gets thrown away. You see, either one of those burdens goes to a party to throw it 468 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,520 away. We insert an option for something different. 469 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:09,600 That's really well put. And that in itself is the transformation of the industry and 470 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,160 the transformation of the paradigm and the way of thinking that you've described Sir 471 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,280 Attlee through this conversation. Angela, it's a real pleasure to talk with you as always. 472 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,160 I know this will be the first of several, but if you had one request to anyone listening 473 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,560 to this podcast, Marine Industry or otherwise, what would it be? 474 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:30,840 Just leadership. I just would like leadership and courage to try some really fun, interesting 475 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,800 things. We have to do it. It has to be done. And there has to be someone in this industry. 476 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,920 And I know it's summer and everybody's really busy and sailing and having great time at 477 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,720 the same time. But when it's over, call me and let's see what we can do to move the 478 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:49,920 needle. And look, at the end of the day, Holly, I don't want there to need to be a sales, 479 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,640 right? Maybe sales get so much stronger and they are getting so much stronger all the 480 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,960 time and repairing them is getting something, right? We won't have to do this forever. But 481 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:03,600 for as long as we do, let's be responsible and let's go be innovative. Let's go be creative. 482 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:09,200 And here's what I know. If your passion is to make sales, go do it. The reason it's not 483 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,280 getting done, Holly, is because nobody wants to do that work. Well, I do. Nobody wants 484 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,800 to go deconstruct a sale and turn it into something else because it's hard. I'll let 485 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,200 the people who want to do it do it. Very well put, Angela. Angela Abashaya, founder of 486 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,960 Sail to Shelter and hailing from California with some wonderful work already being done. 487 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,120 I'm so excited to see what you come up with next. And we'll absolutely stay in touch and 488 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,000 help each other on this journey. I can't wait. You're a big part of it. Thank you. I love 489 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:41,000 your work too. You've been listening to the Clean Sailors podcast. All relevant links 490 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,600 to the projects and people we talk to can be found with the podcast link for all episodes 491 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,640 or to get in touch. Just visit CleanSailors.com. We love to hear from you. We believe that 492 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:55,160 great ideas should be shared, which is why our podcast is free to appear on. So if you've 493 00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:00,640 got a project, idea or topic you think we should be discussing, get in touch. In the 494 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:11,960 meantime, thank you for listening and see you for the next episode.