1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:21,400 Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. Let's talk about sea, marine, sailing and 2 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,520 keeping it clean. I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with 3 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,800 a passion for the health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with experts, innovators 4 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,720 and activists, all working towards improving the health of ICs, we're showcasing the people 5 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,720 and projects, changing the way things are done. 6 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:46,840 End of life boats. With an estimated 30,000 tons of composite waste from old boats being 7 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,960 discarded in European landfills annually, we know this continues to be an issue or an 8 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,640 opportunity. I'm joined by Jerome Watts, former champion sailor and now composite 9 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,080 revolutionist on the environmental impact of composite materials and how, through his 10 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,600 company, Exo Technologies, he's looking at the state of art solutions to address the 11 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:06,600 problem. 12 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,400 Jerome, thanks so much for joining me. 13 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,560 And thank you Holly for contacting me. 14 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:16,040 Firstly, let's talk about your life as a champion sailor. Why sailing and where did that start 15 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:17,040 for you? 16 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,320 My sailing actually started when I was really young. My grandparents lived on a lake near 17 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:26,000 Gouda where the cheese is from. You always call it Gouda, but it's Gouda. And there's 18 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:31,080 11 lakes around and I always sold the boat sailing when I was at my grandparents, always 19 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,760 with binoculars, like, wow, this is what I want to do. Just got it. Just something, you 20 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,040 know, it's a little, little boy just want to do it. 21 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,320 So I started actually very early with sailing and been on dinghy smaley at that time and 22 00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:46,600 start to grow slowly to keel boats, to racing actually. So it's been dominating my entire 23 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,400 life sailing. That's what it is. 24 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:53,160 When you grow with teams, you go at a certain point, you are jumping and an event, you know, 25 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,160 you're always standing on the on the on the key, just like if you need to crew, I'm there, 26 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,280 you know, just 12, 13 year old boy jumping up and down. And there's always somebody who 27 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,760 needs a crew because someone is not available. So you just jump in and do all the jobs you 28 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:05,760 can do. 29 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,680 Very opportunistic. I like that. And what are some of the coolest boats that you've sailed 30 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,160 on? What have you seen? 31 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:16,440 That's a good question. In 2004, I did a race from Cape Town to Rio de Janeiro, which I 32 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,720 never did. I never did Friends Atlantics. I did a lot of offshore and I was in Cape 33 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,280 Town in 2003. So the start and together with a couple of friends, we said, next edition 34 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,880 we're going to do this. This is such a cool thing to do. 4,000 knots, comals, what an 35 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,080 adventure this will be. 36 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,400 So we started to campaign this whole thing, this idea. And we got about for free from a 37 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:40,120 company who was building racing lots and said, can you win? So sure, we can win. Absolutely 38 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,680 all the absolutely no idea. So, okay, we know that we can get to the other side. That's 39 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:52,320 not a problem. But we had a couple of teams. One of my friends, he was many times a world 40 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,680 champion on the laser, did three with Red Round the Worlds. And not stupid people, but 41 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:02,040 everything works when you're a team. And as well, the most weird kind of all walks of 42 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,720 life. But what we did is we combined that all, compared to the money to a good go, we 43 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,760 had a yacht, we had everything sorted. We started to do fundraising and we donated all 44 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,400 that money to the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund. It's 100% of the money because we thought, 45 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:19,560 we are here like a couple of Europeans in South Africa, where kids can't go to school. 46 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,520 There's still a lot of problems and you still to the other side of the world for a hobby 47 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,320 on a very expensive yacht. It doesn't feel really right. So that's what we did. We won 48 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:32,400 the race more luck than wisdom to be fair, honest. But okay, we won. It took us 20 days. 49 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,400 And when we were in Rio, people asked me, do you want to do it again? Yeah, absolutely. 50 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,560 But not 20 days because well, 20 days is a long time. As you know, 20 days on a boat 51 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:47,440 is pretty boring. Ocean racing is not always, you see all this heroic movies from the Volvo 52 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,360 Ocean Race or now the Ocean Race or Immacast. You know, the cameras goes on when it's really 53 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:57,080 blowing, but in general 70% is clubbed conditions. You know, but it's fast, but it can be faster. 54 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,800 So when I came back to Rio, from Rio, I gave up my corporate job, started my own company, 55 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,000 put all the money I've saved into development of a new yacht and want to beat the record, 56 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:12,320 which I did. I wanted to make the boat really big. And I want to make 4550 boat 50 feet 57 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,280 racing yacht. And I did it all with a very well known naval architect with all my ideas. 58 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:21,680 But then you see the quotes on material costing and you see the quotes on design and things. 59 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:27,800 So every week, it became a meter shorter this boat. So the end was 37 feet with a tiller 60 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,460 and people in the newspaper in Cape Town, they were writing, there's a little dinghy 61 00:04:31,460 --> 00:04:35,240 participating in the race. I thought it was like a laser dinghy, small little thing, but 62 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,200 it was exceptionally fast. And from the start, we just poof, we're first over the line at 63 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:45,000 the start. And from that moment, no, we didn't see anyone anymore. We nailed the record in 64 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:50,120 16 days from Cape Town to Rio. And that's a record which still stands today. It was 2006. 65 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,560 So no boat under 40 feet ever has beaten that record. That's the coolest boat I've ever 66 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:55,560 sailed on. 67 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,760 Not least because it was yours too, right? 68 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,000 There's an emotional twist in it. There's cooler boats have been sailing on. No, I've 69 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,360 sailed on a Volvo Vio 70. When it comes to a boat, you constantly say, you have an idea, 70 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,960 you're at, you start to create it, you start to develop it, you start to build it, you 71 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,920 start to make this whole thing, start to go to a dream you want to do. And you nail it. 72 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,240 That's the coolest boat I've ever done. I think it's still going. It's still in Antigua right 73 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:20,240 now. 74 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,040 She does. In fact, I believe I saw her when I was there. It's incredible, Joan. Also, 75 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,960 not least because let's just go back to the first time you did the Cape to Rio and being 76 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,200 from South Africa myself, I appreciate a couple of things that you were talking about and 77 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,240 not least time for on that races, particularly because as Europeans, we're very used to going 78 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,480 from the north of the Atlantic and using the winds that way. And obviously it's inverted 79 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,520 somewhat when you're doing the Southern Atlantic passage. So very cool. And I love this sort 80 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,800 of confidence and the, okay, we'll get the free boat and you will get to the other side. 81 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,200 Of course, we'll win. And then obviously do it again, but having built something which 82 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,880 I can only imagine the sort of emotional attachment to go through the whole process, as you said, 83 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,200 about designing and producing this vessel that was ultimately going to carry you, but 84 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,280 also really going to carry a record at the same time was pretty incredible. But it's 85 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:09,480 incredibly interesting given that your background in sailing and obviously boat building and 86 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:15,560 naval architecture, how then did you result in this deep interest and current passion 87 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,080 and skill for composites and actually looking at the materials themselves with which boats 88 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,080 are made? 89 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,280 That's a good question because you know, you work for 17 years with composite. That's 90 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:28,320 what I did build yachts for 17 years. And you work with composite on a daily basis. 91 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:33,040 You know, you build these boats in Siri production actually, and you see two things health and 92 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,320 safety. You see these people on the floor, all working with glass, mask, things, stuff. 93 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,760 You have styrenes in their resins. You've got boric acid in the fiberglass. And the more 94 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,480 you're going to read about it, and the more you're going to learn about it is that this 95 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,480 boydream what you do, you know, you just have to build one boat and you start thinking, 96 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:54,240 God, that's cool. Let's make more. And it's 650 or something. You just can't go on like 97 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:59,400 that because at a certain point when awareness becomes a concern, they become a hypocrite 98 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:05,080 just to keep on going on. You just can't turn a blind eye anymore. So you can say, well, 99 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,760 let's develop something. But in the meantime, run another company that doesn't work like 100 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,440 that. You know, because it what you need to have 100% focus on what you want to achieve. 101 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:18,040 So I stopped the boat building thing. I sold that whole operation, moved to the island man 102 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:23,160 actually, this night and bounce it to my partner who lives on the island. What's the small 103 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:28,200 place is 85,000 people, you know, just the dots are connected really quick. And I was 104 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:33,400 already working on a sustainable alternative for fiberglass. It's difficult. It's not automatically, 105 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:40,200 but if you want to have something which is sustainable, so free of all toxics and nonsense, 106 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,800 free of styrene, free of BPA, this Bisfalol A, we can pick that up later because that's 107 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:50,240 a scary thing, which is an all composite materials, boric acid in fiberglass name. It's just like 108 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,440 a lot of toxic stuff, which just dump and landfill at the end of life. You know, just 109 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,680 bury it away. You just can't do with it. Nothing with it. So to make something sustainable, 110 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,320 to make something actually circular, so that means that if you recycle it, you can reuse 111 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:10,080 it forever because carbon fiber nowadays can be recycled. But every time you recycle it, 112 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,560 it loses about 20, 25% of the mechanical properties that becomes weaker. So for example, 113 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,560 this desk where I'm sitting on, if you make this out of carbon fiber, you make something 114 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,760 inferior after the end of life. So we came up with down a composite, or I, to be honest, 115 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:30,840 I came up with down composite, which is natural based, exceptionally strong, and you can recycle 116 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,000 it forever. We did three years of R&D before we actually went to the market. So we did 117 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:40,000 all the laboratory testing with Lloyd's DNV accredited laboratories. And when the first 118 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,840 results came out, we were like absolutely baffled because first of all, it's not expensive. 119 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,880 Now you can make boats out of it, just same price as glass fiber. So we have a daughter 120 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,680 company making power boats. We are in Glasgow right now. So it's quite banks not far away 121 00:08:54,680 --> 00:08:59,600 from Glasgow. They make these boats all in this material up till the whole deck structure, 122 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:05,320 wheelhouse, seats, dashboard is all made out of that. And it's so strong and you save quite 123 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:10,160 a lot of weight. So where we initially start to develop this material for boat building 124 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,680 and solve the global problem of boats again of life, which we did, we thought, okay, this 125 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:20,600 is so strong, we can do much more with it. So we do, well, I showed you off record something 126 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,000 which is on my desk, which I can't show that unfortunately, but this one of the super cool 127 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:30,720 project I did. And we did projects on ballistic so it stops bullets, we did projects, we do 128 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,320 the project for high speed trains right now, we do projects for most probably a racing 129 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:41,160 boat, I'm going to develop with it. Because for a racing yacht, you save weight tremendously. 130 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,760 It's not as strong as carbon fiber, don't get me wrong, you know, if you you sell the 131 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:50,440 Volvo 70, I think you sell Telefonica was it in the RORX 600 if I'm correct. Yes, so 132 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,880 remember it. That's something you cannot make out of my material. You can, but you won't 133 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,600 break a record with it. It's too heavy, because that's a No Max carbon fiber, No Max core 134 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,880 prepreg. The weight and stiffness ratio is you just can't reach it. But when it comes 135 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,800 to let's say up to 40 feet, we have something extraordinary. So all these niche kind of 136 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,440 things for me, the one spoilers will be difficult. But everything which is the safe fiber glass 137 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:19,120 or close to carbon fiber properties, we have an answer for a very reasonable price. For 138 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,160 example, a boat I've built and said, well, imagine this holds 280 kilos, imagine it will 139 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,280 be lighter, stiffer and doesn't affect your IRC rating because the moment you are having 140 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,480 a carbon fiber or deck or master and everything under IRC, your rating goes through the roof. 141 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,280 This is just the same price as glass fiber, you save about 20, 25% of the weight of a 142 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,680 boat and you don't get penalized on your IRC. Okay, all the weight you have a penalty 143 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:46,200 because you have a speeded phone, but not as heavy as carbon. They have an affordable 144 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,200 boat. So it's not so bad. 145 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,120 And then see to your point around, okay, it might not work on the caliber of boats such 146 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:58,680 as the VO 70s, but the majority of the market sits well below that. Most of our boats globally 147 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:03,600 and nowhere near that spec nor need they be, thankfully, given the general skillset and 148 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:08,880 comparison to the, I will say this for sure, we'll be having a lot of crazy accidents. 149 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:16,000 But importantly, why is it that traditional composites or let's say GRP FRP construction 150 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,920 is so outdated now from what it actually is made of life issue? 151 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:27,000 When fiberglass came out, it was just like the paperback, you know, the certain part 152 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,640 was that the paperback was bad for the environment because you have to cut trees and that and 153 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,480 then become a plastic bag and everybody needs to have a plastic bag. And now everybody's 154 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,440 start to realize that plastic bag was not a good idea. And it's the same with fiberglass, 155 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,720 you know, there's so much stuff we don't know. I always call it the asbestos of our 156 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,560 time, you know, it was cheap, it was light, it's resistant, it's name it, it has all 157 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:51,880 the benefits. But gosh, you speak with people work in shipyards, they don't have a smell 158 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,800 for the styrenes and everything. Their whole nose is gone. It creates a lot of health problems. 159 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,880 It's no end of life solution. So everything when you keep on building, building, building 160 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:05,240 if you do one, two, three, four, five pine. But if you make hundreds and thousands just 161 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:10,680 boats or wind turbines and name it out of this material, that end of life, you absolutely 162 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:14,280 know what they were to do with it. Well, if you stop one boat in the landfill, we'll have 163 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:19,120 an ecological or bad effect. No, not really. Well, to wind energy, for example, do you 164 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,440 know how much wind turbines will end in a landfill between today and 2050 globally? 165 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:24,440 Guess. 166 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,600 I'm guessing a lot given we're erecting more and more and more of the year on year. 167 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:29,600 Guess. 168 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:35,880 In 40,000,000 tons. So there's 43 billion kilograms. 169 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:36,880 Wow. 170 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:43,160 That's just unacceptable. That's unethical. I'm trying here as well. The island man, 171 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:48,120 we tried to do a wind farm on shore here on the island, which I'm not automatically against, 172 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,440 but bear in mind that at the end of life, what you do with these blades? Are we bearing 173 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,200 it here in our hills? It's here in escrow biosphere. Then we put all these toxic in the 174 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,280 ground. Not a good idea. We have a solution for that. It's not that I want to sell my 175 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:05,400 innovation. I really don't care, but I care about the island. I care about the environment. 176 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:10,640 What are you going to do to set it and bury it in the desert in Tunisia? It's unethical. 177 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:16,120 We need to stop that instantly. There's not only me. Luckily, we have the only solution 178 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,880 in the market space, which is actually circular. You keep your materials in the economy and 179 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,440 out of landfill. From the boat you're talking about, you can make a wind turbine blade out 180 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,200 of it and life on the wind turbine blade. That's out of it. I'm from my desk. You make 181 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:35,720 another boat out of it, so you use it. That's a big benefit. I think just on a total aspect, 182 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,800 circular economy is something unavoidable. We plunder more than the earth can regenerate 183 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,240 at this moment. At the same time, we're just like Thelma and Louise in all movies before 184 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,040 your time. You're driving your six gears straight down the cliff. That's what we're actually 185 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,800 doing. As long as everything goes well, you don't see it and you don't feel it in your 186 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,240 wallet and everything is all right, then it's very hard to break through. That's one of 187 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,040 the problems we face. Not in the yachting industry. Let's say this, because the yachting 188 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,880 industry is very conservative. We are the only one at the ultimate boats who are just building 189 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,800 all these boats in this material and we get business out of that just by doing something 190 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:08,800 different. 191 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,280 Better. When you say the boating industry is conservative, what do you mean? 192 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:18,720 Conservative for change. As long as things work and as long as you're happy with it and 193 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,880 as long as nobody complains about it, there's no legislations or taxes or things and it 194 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:29,120 just works and your business goes well, then why should you change? The only reason to 195 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:35,320 do this is for ecological reasons out of a concern. But as long as you're not concerned, 196 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,880 you got awareness and concern what I talk about. For example, climate change, people 197 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,640 are aware of it, but think, well, I'm aware of it, but I don't care because it's nice 198 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,880 and 40 degrees in Switzerland, I'm having my drink. When people get concerned, they say, 199 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,400 well, I'm concerned, but there's a lot of big brains about taking care of it. You need 200 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,840 to get a sort of a movement which moves people to go so you can go to demand to say that 201 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,280 people want only a boat which can be recycled. Then there's a lot of education there as well. 202 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:07,640 I think the education is there, big key and taxes and legislations. For example, if I 203 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:12,720 fill up my car with fuel, I pay a lot of tax on that. If somebody buys a bottle of whiskey, 204 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,400 you pay a lot of tax on that because it's unhealthy. These kinds of things need to be 205 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,400 taxed at a certain point. You just can't avoid it anymore. When you get tax weavers on an 206 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,280 electric car, which is not automatically smart, but it's another subject, then it's just 207 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,680 nothing moves. That's the point. Comfort is the biggest enemy of progress. That's how 208 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,760 it is. So as long as you're comfortable, why should you innovate? Why should your progress? 209 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,960 Why should you make a change? Why should you do it? It's a difficult thing. As long as 210 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,520 somebody is really concerned or really says, this is a solution, we really want to adapt 211 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:46,280 because it fits our future and it fits our ESG pledges and so on. Perfect. 212 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,720 It has to operate as a business. We were talking about businesses here. So why disrupt your 213 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:56,640 whole model of being unless there's a really good reason why you have to? Unfortunately, 214 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,680 I say unfortunately and it does often make business sense why the case, but shifting 215 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,960 on moral and ethical grounds often isn't enough to move a whole industry or industries towards 216 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,080 something different. I mean, to your point around concern, because it's an interesting 217 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,040 one, right? There's a difference between being aware, being concerned and then also taking 218 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:17,040 action on it. And an important element is obviously we're knowing now more than we ever 219 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,720 have done on most topics from climate change to medicine to whatever else, but importantly 220 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:27,880 on things like GRP and FRP, coating, let's say, or even wind turbines. So relatively 221 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:33,920 recently in say 2022, so just two years ago with the University of Brighton in particular, 222 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:40,320 we're starting to understand the contamination in the water of marine species associated with 223 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,320 these E-type fragments. So these FRPs and GRPs, these little glass fragments, which 224 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:50,320 we're embedding themselves into obviously a variety of marine creatures. And you've 225 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:55,920 called it asbestos, like it's exactly the sort of narrative and factual narrative that's 226 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:01,720 actually now being discussed more openly around the impact that our traditional materials 227 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:07,160 here are having on not just wildlife, but also on ourselves. So I appreciate that the 228 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:14,080 environment or fast generating ecosystems like cetaceans or shellfish can be quite good 229 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,920 indicators and they obviously regenerate very quickly. So we can be looking at them 230 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,120 as good kind of proxies to what our materials and pollutants are doing. But we know now 231 00:17:24,120 --> 00:17:29,400 that there are, you know, things like these glass fibers are having tumors and cancers 232 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,600 and inflammation effects on them. That's without us having extensive research on the human 233 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,680 body and the impact that these fibers are having on us, whether it's people who are 234 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:43,200 working with them daily. And this is not to be scaremongering rather factual. Unfortunately, 235 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,680 it took some really graphical studies around plastics and the fact that we found them in 236 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,400 breast milk, we found them in fetuses, we found them in testes, you know, before we actually 237 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:58,880 started looking at plastics and microplastics with a similar lens. So it feels like it's 238 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:04,520 only a matter of time. But the question is, is obviously what then do we shift to? Because 239 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,680 it's all well and good saying we can't use that anymore, we're going to have to legislate 240 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:13,160 or tax it. But we also need solutions. So how have you approached this design question 241 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,440 around composites differently to what we've currently got? 242 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,800 Well, I like your introduction a lot because you know, it is found in the food chain and 243 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,960 all these kind of things are a concern for my behalf. But when I started to develop this 244 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:31,640 solution, the point is, it needs to be superior to fiberglass, you know, there's something 245 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:37,040 which is so strong, I just say, wow, you know, because sustainability still has a sort of 246 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:43,800 cute, sweet, weak kind of error around it, you know, when it's sustainable, cannot be 247 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:49,200 that strong, is it? You need to have something which is considerably stronger, which is almost 248 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,080 a nonbrainer, you know, so when you use it, you use less material, you save weight, you 249 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,960 make a stronger proposition, you can recycle it forever, and you don't have all the toxics 250 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:04,120 in it. To innovate something like that, the end is extremely simple. But to take all these 251 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:07,760 boxes was the most most difficult thing ever, because you can create something which is 252 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,520 sustainable, but you can't recycle it. So you got sort of natural fibers, which you 253 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,960 see that there's a lot of things coming up right now, you see that around on social media 254 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,880 and everything in silver. It's actually really beautiful. The finishing is a extraordinary 255 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,720 well, but you can't recycle it because these fibers, they absorb quite a lot, you can separate 256 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,400 materials, you dump them in landfill, which is a good step forward, but you're not there 257 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:34,360 yet. So in order to make something which is sustainable and recyclable and affordable, 258 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,760 economically viable, that's something which is kind of a difficult thing. We have a global 259 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:43,720 patent on this technology, which is actually really cool, but it is difficult to tick all 260 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:49,880 these boxes. And as well, my team, we've never been satisfied. Never. Like this can be better. 261 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,400 We need to be better. We have to think different. This is not good enough. This is good is the 262 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,760 biggest enemy of perfect. It's good, but it's not perfect. Let's go on. Let's go on. Let's 263 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,800 go on more testing, more testing. And the end result is something which is perfect. It's 264 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,240 not to preach out of my old church, because you know, your own child is always the most 265 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,640 beautiful and the smartest and so on and so on. But this is actually, it just works perfect. 266 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,320 It's just how it is. I'm extremely proud of it. If you say champion sailor and all the 267 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,560 things on transatlantic offshore and all the stuff, you know, I think no doubt this is 268 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,880 the coolest thing I've ever done in my life. 269 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,760 He says that waving a black stick at me. What was it you were showing there to us? 270 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,000 This was something in this ballistic panels, 12 mil thick, and we did ballistic tests with 271 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:35,240 it for MOD so you can shoot actually bullet stops so you can mold in any shape so you 272 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:40,040 can do it in automotive parts so you can the impact resistant is outstanding. So we do 273 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:45,120 quite a lot of stuff on impact resistance as well. And that's something you go along 274 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:49,600 the line. And that's I think that's the coolest thing of a startup, which we are. Well, we're 275 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,680 maybe going a little bit over the stage right now being a starter, but like I said, we did 276 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,920 it for boats. I thought, okay, that's cool. And I thought, hmm, that's strong. We can 277 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,720 do something with wind. Oh, that feels strong. Maybe it stops a bullet. Well, why don't we 278 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,240 test it? Okay. And you start to test it, you start to develop and stops bullets. And it's 279 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:13,120 all tested independently by laboratories in the United States and laboratories in the 280 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:18,080 United Kingdom up till big brains in Germany who tested it and all according we got all 281 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:23,800 the coding and proof and everything done. And then you enter other industries, you enter 282 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:29,480 other other areas. So for example, the thing that got on my desk as you cannot share it, 283 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,600 but that's a helmet, something we did ourselves. Okay, well, it stops bullets and you have 284 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,640 here the out of men TT. So well, we're CT elements are or composite. So why don't we 285 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,800 make a helmet out of it? So we did and it passed all the tests. So you constantly go 286 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,320 to sort of steps to live rough containers, they'll name it, we did all these tests we 287 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,320 passed and all the things we do. But the biggest breakthrough is always into something which 288 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,880 is how do you say it's like a tier one player, these things that take a long time, you know, 289 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,680 we do we work with only big industries. And these are the processor always slower than 290 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,040 you do on a small scale business. But then you have a breakthrough, which just blows 291 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,200 off the off the skill, which is great. 292 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,480 It's very, very, very cool. And I think that's what excites me the most about talking to 293 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,000 people such as yourself is the process of, let's say the invention and the iteration. 294 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:23,640 I mean, think of Sir James Dyson now that you know, revolutionized vacuum cleaner, and 295 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:29,480 it took 7000 prototypes to get to the vacuum cleaner that was actually viable and usable 296 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,320 and domestic environment. You know, this isn't done overnight. And I think that's why it's 297 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,800 such exceptional technology, not least because you're doing it with that high performance 298 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,480 mindset of this isn't yet good enough. This is nowhere near good enough, even if it's 299 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,480 getting better, just striving for that ultimate aim. Because I mean, ultimately, as you mentioned, 300 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,960 this isn't an opportunity to revolutionize just the marine industry and move talking 301 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:56,120 3040 million registered boats on the planet, let alone everyone that isn't registered, 302 00:22:56,120 --> 00:23:00,800 plus aviation plus high speed rail plus clean energy. I mean, there are huge, huge markets 303 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:06,040 which are relying on materials such as this to be more reliable, to be more circular. 304 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,680 And also as you rightly mentioned, to be economically viable in the process. 305 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,040 Yeah, that's a difficult thing because when you talk to big industries, they say there's 306 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,720 a lot of assumptions around you need to take these assumptions away. So we're somewhere 307 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:23,360 you say, well, there's not a strong, well, I can tell you, it is really strong because 308 00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:27,240 we've got here something which is just a strip of two mil thick, which is nothing. It's like 309 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:33,160 a lollipop stick. The weight you can hang on that lollipop stick is 11 tons. So that's 310 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,760 four range offers you can hang for range over a little and then people say, wow. And then 311 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,840 so what that must be very expensive. No, it's not. It's not actually not expensive. It's 312 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,480 actually really affordable because we have a patent on technology. We're not supplier 313 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,280 of resins and fibers. We don't really don't care. We are a technology company and these 314 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,040 materials are off the shelf. We own a patent on the recipe. That's what we have. So for 315 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,480 big industries, there's no supply chains industries. For example, we talk to big companies to 316 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,560 say, well, you're just a small little company on the island man. We're not, we're not a 317 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,640 small company while we're on the island man, but we're not that but we're not vestos energy, 318 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,880 you know, these winter, I think, but they buy the materials themselves. They pay a license 319 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,800 on the technology. Or that's where we go. We go now for the next step. We are now, but 320 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,440 that's a little bit cannot say so much about it. We're now in the process of going to produce 321 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,080 ourselves these materials. So we're going to go on a wider scale and produce this as 322 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:30,200 a OEM producer for other companies. So we go upscale production on not only boats, but 323 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,120 as well on other things. 324 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:36,200 You mentioned a very important phrase there, which I liked, which was you've got to remove 325 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,280 the assumptions. It made me think how much we approach life with assumptions, consciously 326 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,880 or subconsciously, which obviously hinder our progression or perhaps developmental thinking 327 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:51,960 outside of the proverbial box a bit better. Honestly, my assumption is that having a truly 328 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:58,600 forever recyclable material sounds pretty impossible because let's take the second law 329 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,720 of thermodynamics number one, something has always got to be lost in the process, right? 330 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:08,640 But also there must be an incredibly energy or chemical intensive process through which 331 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,840 the material has to go in order to be recreated into something new. What are you looking in 332 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,280 that process? Something presumably, but you're also having to put it under quite an intensive 333 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,160 energy process in itself, no? 334 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,680 Not automatically. That's not so bad. I like your question because it really depends on 335 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,640 the purpose or for example, if you recycle one, it's a motorcycle helmet that makes no 336 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,880 sense. That says absolutely makes no sense. It's too expensive, makes no sense. It's 337 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:41,280 all stupid. A circular economy only works when the virgin materials are more expensive 338 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,920 than the recycle materials and just as strong. That's when it works. For example, lithium 339 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,320 plundered all around can be recycled, but the recyclable process is so expensive that you 340 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:55,600 just throw it away and buy a new Tesla battery anyway. So that's one of the problems we face. 341 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:01,760 For, let's say, surfboards, helmets, smaller parts, name it. We do even something for shower 342 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,520 trays right now, medical flooring systems here on the island man with this material. 343 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,880 So that already indicates it's not super expensive, but it needs quite a lot of compression because 344 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:15,240 it's for special medical things, but they sell us ruined. So these things are very easy 345 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:20,320 to recycle. And as long as you bulk it up, they recycle it and then becomes economically 346 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,920 viable. The moment you are taking a yacht, then it becomes difficult because you have 347 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,600 to cut it up. You try to get your fibers back in there because that's the trick. You get 348 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,040 your fiber, as if you do by axle or you need a reaction or quadraxial in a mold, you can 349 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,720 recycle it such a way that you just can get everything back as you put it in. That's not 350 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,320 too good to be true. That's actually true. We did it with an independent laboratory. 351 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,440 So for example, this, let's say, take this as a lollipop stick, we said we made one panel 352 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:53,160 as a batch to test it until it breaks. So to bend it and to stretch it, it was all done 353 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:58,400 by a laboratory in the UK. They broke it. They got all the data, so much stretch, so 354 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,240 much flexure. From the same batch, what we made, they recycled that panel because you 355 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,800 cannot, the thing was all broken up and twisted and broken and was all beaten up, so it's 356 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,360 all broken up. From the same batch, they recycled that panel, they made a new panel out of it 357 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:17,280 and they tested it again and the results are identically strong. Identical. We invested 358 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,280 quite a lot of money on these kind of results and to prove independent testing. It's all 359 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,880 DNV accredited, Lloyd's accredited that stamped off laboratory reports where we actually 360 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:31,040 show circularity. But you were saying it has to be done with relatively unadulterated 361 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,480 material. Maybe we are a little bit ahead of the future. Our slogan of extra technologies 362 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,480 innovating in the future. I had a call with a naval architect and he came with the question, 363 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,560 how can you recycle this boat? I said, well, that's a very good question because at this 364 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,760 moment it will be difficult. You can recycle it, but it will be very expensive for big 365 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,320 vessel for smaller parts like as it surfboards, easy helmets, easy name it, which is all you 366 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:59,280 need to start at something with an innovation which is there. For example, the PET bottle 367 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,640 was a recyclable bottle when they launched it, but nobody could recycle it. Now everybody 368 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:09,920 can recycle it. These recycle companies who are now jumping into let's say the big wind 369 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,400 energy sector, for example, they try to get now these wind turbine blades recycled. These 370 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,880 companies are now growing like you can't believe. When you can recycle 120 meter wind turbine 371 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,080 blade, well, you can recycle a boat. That's not so difficult anymore. These companies 372 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:29,760 are now getting there. They're going to develop it. In order to create the feed with demand, 373 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,880 if you stop that, if you say, for example, okay, recycle the boat, and only say, well, 374 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,680 yeah, we can, but it will be expensive. And you say, well, I know, I stay with fiberglass. 375 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:43,040 Okay, I will stay with fiberglass. Okay. So then there's no growth in other sectors in 376 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,600 order to get this thing moving. The wind energy sector is leading yet they do it still in 377 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:53,040 fiberglass. They still have fiberglass and that loses mechanical properties. So you can 378 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,280 recycle this wind turbine blade, but you dump it in the tarmac road or something as well. 379 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,960 The content of BPA is in this material. Nobody actually knows how much BPA, but do you know 380 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:08,280 what BPA is? It's a bisphenol A. And it's in every epoxy or vinyl ester resin. It creates 381 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,800 a sort of stability in your resins. Just one kilogram of that stuff. Do you know how much 382 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:19,080 water that can contaminate? Guess. I'm guessing thousands of Olympic swimming pools kind of 383 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:24,960 of water. It's the size of one big drinking reservoir here on the elements, 10 billion 384 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:30,880 liter. That's huge. 10 billion liter, put two pints of beer in it and you cannot drink 385 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,840 it anymore. That's all this material. That means that if you bury it in landfill, it 386 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,960 remains very stable. You know, it won't leak out unless you got a variety of temperatures 387 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,640 which have here on the island. Man, for example, a lot of sometimes it's warm. Sometimes it's 388 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,360 really cold. When the temperature gets unstable, this might leak out and then it comes in drinking 389 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,920 water and it comes exactly as you say with the turns in the food chain. 390 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,800 Okay, you've developed the recipe, a combination of ingredients which resulted in this product 391 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:02,360 which is very lightweight, very strong, et cetera, et cetera. And at the moment, we haven't 392 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:09,040 large scale formal recycling solutions or facilities to deal with that. Therefore, it's on the wider 393 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,800 industry, governments, councils, everything as a whole and other clever brains to come 394 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,920 up with a way in which that is a scalable recycling facility for such materials. How 395 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:24,600 much responsibility do you place or should we place on the producer of the materials 396 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,400 to come up with a recycling solution? 397 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,720 Well, that's a good question because if I was a CEO, I would change everything because 398 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,880 I'm not automatically an eco warrior. I wouldn't call myself that. But I did so much reading 399 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:41,080 and so much study that if you don't do that, if you're not, let's say, of a sincere concern, 400 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,400 the biggest problem where we face right now is that you have the greenwashing movements. 401 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,480 You see, there was a certain point, a Swedish brand, don't follow them constantly because 402 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,800 I asked them some questions and it was blocked on social media, which was just a very kind 403 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,200 question. I know I'm Dutch, we are very direct, but it was actually tried to be in a polite 404 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,360 kind of way. They're selling a sustainable story. And actually, my sister came up, hey, 405 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,520 this is a sustainable boat. I said, okay, that's cool. Wow. Let's see it. So it's not 406 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,320 a sustainable boat. It always a fiberglass boat. The battery is not sustainable. The 407 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,360 whole boat is not sustainable. It's a sustainable story. I'm living and breathing this story 408 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,880 on this topic every single day. But when you're a consumer, you will jump into something 409 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,120 which is just a polluted piece of junk. And there's where education comes. And that's 410 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,120 where, for example, the demand to the market needs to come. I've been at a certain point 411 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,440 flagging up with British Marine, for example, it didn't get me any further, which is kind 412 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:38,040 of frustrating. Get a label on it. Do a survey on it. You got your ISO, you got your C certification, 413 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:44,040 you got your the Enveloids Register certifications. Why not a green label? Why not the green certification? 414 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:49,160 Bang, this is a real green boat. As long as you don't do these kind of things, then who 415 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:55,000 cares? But when you take a step back and really make a change towards sustainability and put 416 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:01,480 a example, you can't tell your children to eat fruit and take a bite of hamburger yourself 417 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,720 from McDonald's. You can't. You need to set an example, especially sports, sports people, 418 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,480 or sports events that are the movements which can create that change. Because only you know 419 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,720 it as well. When you watch the ocean race like you do or the IMOCA series, and the things are 420 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,720 going 35 knots or they go 30 knots. Can you see the difference on the camera? I just see a lot 421 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,720 of water flying over the boat. I cannot really judge how fast it goes, but it's bloody impressive. 422 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,080 And that same impressive thing, you still can reach with our innovation. And that there's 423 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,800 room in improvement to make it lighter, stiffer, maybe with Bill Katzen stringers and things to 424 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:40,280 make it a little bit smarter. Then you create or set a benchmark, you set an example for where 425 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:45,160 you want to be. You cannot sell a sustainable story and put a full carbon racing yaw in the water. 426 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,520 Whether you like it or not, because I love these boats, but I don't like them. I think somebody 427 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:56,040 needs to set the benchmark. Somebody needs to have the guts to say, I'm done with it. We're 428 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,840 stopping this. There's an innovation available. It's on my desk. They can test it. I don't ask 429 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,560 a cent for the research and development. Just ask me what we do. Test it yourself. Try to break it. 430 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,520 Try to whatever you do with it. Ask me for the leopard board, some sending it. And let's make 431 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,720 a change, a positive change. I think the carbon point is an exceptional one and probably warrants 432 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,800 its own separate topic, podcast, conversation, features, articles, the lot, because unfortunately, 433 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:27,720 despite its excellence in terms of lightweightness and strength, it's probably one of the worst 434 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:33,400 materials we could be using at scale to develop boats for a myriad of reasons, environmental in 435 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,600 particular. But I appreciate it is the material du jour, let's say, and exceptional, however, 436 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:44,360 definitely short sighted if we are rolling that out more broadly. But on your point, Geron, around 437 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:51,320 the material itself, do you feel as though the industry is moving fast enough or industries 438 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:57,000 are moving fast enough? Or do you think it is also the point at which legislation and taxation 439 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:04,040 now needs to come in to support a truly equal, say, shift away from materials which are demonstrably 440 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:09,240 damaging to the environment ultimately due to us? France is leading that pathway already. They have 441 00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:13,720 already taxes on everything, it's non recyclable. For example, if you buy a boat, you are going 442 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:18,120 to pay tax on it because you know they set up these recycle centers already throughout France, 443 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,760 where they just can't recycle automatically the composite materials, but take the winches off 444 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,800 and the wood out and things and stuff. And these recycle plants are already going very quick through 445 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,360 France and are paid by the taxpayers who are buying these boats. So that's already something, 446 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,680 a movement which I support. You shouldn't use that tax money to whatever, to make new roads or 447 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,880 whatever, to do some other stuff. Use that to create recycle facilities, create jobs, create a new 448 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:47,560 economy to get this movement going. It's actually a very simple thing, it's almost free money. 449 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:53,320 You can say, well, put 10% on it, you can do it tomorrow and it will be accepted anyway. What are 450 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,520 you going to do? Nothing, you can't do nothing about it. And I think as well for a certain reason, 451 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:04,120 when companies are not doing it, not changing, the moment you feel it in your wallet, so your 452 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:09,000 turnover goes down or your profit is going down, that's the moment they will change. Everything 453 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:14,440 becomes liquid under pressure and that's exactly what needs to be done because as long as you have 454 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:19,880 not a person who says, we have ESG pledges, we want to make it to lead the pathway to greener 455 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:25,000 future and doesn't see that, then it makes no sense talking. Europe is leading this in the 456 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,080 north and Europe especially, like the Nellis where I'm from is really pushing these things forward. 457 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,440 I'm pretty proud to be Dutch. Scandinavian countries are doing it really well. So yeah, 458 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,840 you see these movement going and I think that should be an example for the rest of the world. 459 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,680 It should be and I think honestly, sitting here, both of us are sitting in the United Kingdom 460 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:48,440 having this conversation. It's somewhat disappointing, I find that like many other countries, there are a 461 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:53,240 lot of brilliant minds, there's a lot of maritime history and a legacy here in the UK. And it's a 462 00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:57,960 real pity, I think, in an industry we haven't shifted fast enough. But as you said, there's 463 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,440 probably not yet enough pressure. And you mentioned something earlier, sometimes, you know, 464 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:07,640 movements can come from the bottom up. But ultimately, if the general populace doesn't 465 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,360 appreciate the impact that these substances are having, then that movement can't come 466 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,600 as easily from the bottom up. It has to at some point be a top down reaction, which is ultimately 467 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,760 what we're seeing as you've rightly said, in places like Europe and France in particular, 468 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:26,120 on boat taxation. So if you're buying a new boat in France, you pay the end of life tax ultimately 469 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,440 as the purchaser so that it can be dealt with when it comes to the end of life. 470 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,120 It's a very interesting model, a very clever model. And certainly one which is, you know, 471 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,680 a start like anything, we'll find new novel ways, solutions which make the whole system 472 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,000 work a little bit better. Because as it's a sort of duplicitous issue, we've got the virgin composite 473 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,520 recycling issue opportunities for any kind of byproduct or leftovers from creating new boats, 474 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,360 new wind turbines. That's all virgin material, which isn't easily recyclable, 475 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:58,360 GRP, or PBITs. And obviously the end of life boats, which are heavily adulterated, as you'll 476 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:04,280 appreciate 30 years owning a vessel these days, and it's been up an epoxy and vanished and whatever 477 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,360 else. So it's not easily to break apart, nor is it economically viable in most cases. 478 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,400 So it's definitely the very beginning, I should say, feels a little bit somewhat delayed and 479 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:19,560 postponed increasingly. But I think mines such as yourself and your team and others working in the 480 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:25,160 industry are genuinely finding opportunities to shift this quite dramatically, not least 481 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,400 for the revolution of new materials to be built with. You mentioned something that's quite interesting 482 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,760 was being able to recycle the sort of bike helmets and surfboards are manageable, but actually the 483 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:40,840 size of a vessel, perhaps not. I think we forget, however, that take away the hull, as in take away 484 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,080 the ballast effectively, the keel of a boat, and all the, obviously the mast and everything else, 485 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:50,120 you're talking about a very hollow space, you can crush it down somewhat is actually a lot less 486 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:56,120 than the actual ultimate size of the boat. So you're 37 foot boat is something akin to two square 487 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:02,280 meters worth of material, even though it looks a lot larger. So that too surely is taken into 488 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,440 account, thinking about recycling it. It will be, it will be definitely will be possible, possible 489 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,680 at scale, you know, even a bigger boat will be recyclable at scale. Now that's not a problem. 490 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:15,160 You see this French movement, they say, I think it's called a pair. That's the French company, 491 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:20,440 which is governmental supported. They stripped about until actually you put to a hull and a deck, 492 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,880 that's it. And at a certain point, they didn't have so much to do with it. So now you see 493 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,040 yours already composite recycling companies say, Hey, I can do it, I can do it, I can do it, 494 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,320 just chop it up and give it to me. Chop it up is one thing transport is not a thing's, 495 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,640 recyclates then another thing. And in the end, you have materials which have to dump away anyway. 496 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,720 And that's the difficult part of it. This you don't throw away. So for example, 497 00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:43,480 the helmet I just showed you, which I cannot show in front of the camera. But for example, 498 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:48,600 the visor in this helmet will be cut out by water because this thing comes out of one mold. 499 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:54,200 So you got hundreds and thousands of these visors, which are cut out and thrown away. 500 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,520 These can be recycled and these materials can be back in helmet again, like the color of their 501 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,200 helmet, for example, they're all you put it in a mold, there will be water cut off. 502 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,680 These things you can recycle everything you just bulk it up till you got to a certain amount, 503 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,520 you recycle it, you got your fibers back and you got the rest is back and make helmet out of it. 504 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:15,640 That's a pretty cool story. And that's like I said, it's actually true. It's possible. It's 505 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:21,080 on my desk. It's right here. I have seen it. I can attest to anyone listening. I think it also 506 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:25,080 goes back to the design question, right? We're basing on assumptions. How have we become so 507 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:30,600 used to assuming there will be waste products when we produce anything rather than approaching the 508 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:36,760 design question with no waste in mind? I mean, I think there are whole sort of subconscious biases 509 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,560 which we have ingrained in the way that we have arguably thousands and thousands of years produced 510 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,920 things. They're going back to your point of assumptions and I have actually written it down 511 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,480 sort of assumptions because it's worth us challenging ourselves what we're predisposed to 512 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:55,480 believe. If we're designing our design specifications are waste less than we'll be looking at. 513 00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:00,360 Yeah, definitely. Since the industrial revolution, what we did, we take things from the planet, 514 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:05,480 we make something out of it, we use it and we throw it away. But in the process of making, 515 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:11,480 there is also waste. I was just envisaging things visors or I don't know, this hand sanitizer, 516 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,960 this little plastic cap will be laid out as a sheet, which we cut. There'll be margins that are 517 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,520 wasted. There'll be extra bits and pieces that don't go into making this. So in the production 518 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,560 process, there is wasted virgin material too. Exactly. Yeah, you see the boats, for example, 519 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,320 composite boats, it's about 20, you got all the lights in the vacuum if you usually can throw it 520 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,120 away, a lot of resin thrown away, a lot of trim lights is all thrown away. So just, there's a lot 521 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,720 of waste. But the moment you can say there's a waste, you can recycle it. Like for example, 522 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:42,680 like I said, the helmet, this waste part, you can recycle and use it back in the end material again. 523 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,760 That's something possible. That's actually something I never thought about until I was having a 524 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:51,160 meeting with one of these guys with who we did the helmet. And that's something I thought, okay, 525 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,320 that's actually not so stupid, because I just thought let's recycle the helmet. So that goes 526 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,880 much further. And then you can see a sort of movement. This is this helmet is not ready yet. 527 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,880 It is ready because it's tested, but needs to go through homologation and all sorts of things. 528 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,480 It takes forever, which is fine. Which is fine. They can making steps by step. But at least that's 529 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,680 something which you create a movement of something who just gets it just wants to lead wants to be 530 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,400 the world's first doing something different. That's really cool to do. Now, Joanne, what's your 531 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,360 ask of the industry? Let's say marine industry more broadly, when it comes to thinking about 532 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:31,320 end of life and also composites. Trigger me. Prove me I'm wrong. Let's make your life easy. 533 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:37,480 I can. If you don't care about the planet, then do it for the next generation. If you want to have 534 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,040 something which is just superior to be different to be the world's first to do something out of 535 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,240 extraordinary to lead the pathway to have the answers today for questions you will definitely 536 00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:54,120 get tomorrow the day after tomorrow. Got them here. Trigger me. Just go take me a message on 537 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,360 LinkedIn, whatever, and let's make it happen. I'm not laughing only because I know you and I know 538 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:03,080 that you're serious. And I also think it would make such a fantastic t-shirt slogan if we all had 539 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,800 to trigger me because it's important. I think it's important also for you to be challenged and 540 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,640 for your teams to be challenged. For anyone who's looking at new solutions, it's really important 541 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:16,200 to be grilled on the viability of your solution. It's how we all progress. 542 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,400 Yeah, for example, we did the helmet. This is our own initiative, by the way. We just thought, 543 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,240 okay, let's make a helmet. Let's do it. Let's do something like this is a weird kind of thing to 544 00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:27,480 do because with the rocket stops bullets. And that was something like, and as well, especially 545 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,360 my team said to me, you can't do that. My sister always said it to me when I was young, when I 546 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,040 was a little boy, you can't do it. And I always did it, you know, and did it twice. I made a selfie 547 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:41,880 while you did that selfie that time. The point is, trigger me is exactly this. This thing took me 548 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:47,800 nights almost to get it right. It's not a simple thing to do to make it within the margins of weight 549 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,440 and thickness and things and stuff to make it happen. And when it works, we tested it. I thought, 550 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,440 bloody hell, this is actually really strong. It just works. So first we did a little panel, 551 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:02,360 we tested it, well, past. We made eight panels, seven past one didn't, it was ridiculously thin. 552 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,040 Then we said, oh, let's make a helmet out of this. It works. And now we're opening dial up with 553 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,720 helmet manufacturers. Is he like, look, they got something on my desk, maybe something interesting 554 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:13,400 for you. So now it starts to be picked up. And this whole discussion is going, but this is something 555 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:18,520 we did all our own initiative. But it I broke my head, 100 on not my head, because it's a helmet, 556 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:24,440 but it was a lot of thinking to make something as complex as it is within the margins, make it 557 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:30,920 14% lighter as a race helmet. And it works. So that's why I said, trigger me, throw it on my desk, 558 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,840 and let's make it happen. Just somebody who says, well, interesting, let's contact me, 559 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,720 send me a message on LinkedIn or whatever WhatsApp or an email and throw it on my desk. And let's 560 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:40,840 see what we can do. 561 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,000 Jeroen Watts, former champion sailor and now composite revolutionist. Thank you so much for 562 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,000 your time today. Really enjoyed the conversation. And the two biggest things I've taken away 563 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,600 personally are that the concept has sort of triggered me, you know, in terms of personal 564 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,160 growth and invention and innovation, very cool way of looking at the world. And also the understanding 565 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:02,200 of assumptions, how are we approaching things very similarly, even if we believe that we are not. 566 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,600 So thank you again very much for your time. I'm very excited to see what exo technologies and 567 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,800 Danu composites come up with in the coming days and years. 568 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,960 Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. 569 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,640 You've been listening to the Clean Sailors podcast. All relevant links to the projects 570 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,440 and people we talk to can be found with the podcast link for all episodes or to get in touch 571 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:27,320 just visit CleanSailors.com. We love to hear from you. We believe that great ideas should 572 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:32,440 be shared, which is why our podcast is free to appear on. So if you've got a project, idea, 573 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:38,360 or topic, you think we should be discussing, get in touch. In the meantime, thank you for listening 574 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:54,280 and see you for the next episode.