1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:21,440 Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. Let's talk about sea, marine, sailing and 2 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,520 keep it clean. I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with 3 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,840 a passion for the health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with experts, innovators 4 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,400 and activists, all working towards improving the health of our seas, we're showcasing the 5 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:43,000 people and projects, changing the way things are done. We've had a couple of conversations 6 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,880 on the topic of end of life boats, notably with brilliant minds and teams who are working 7 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:53,080 to create fully recyclable composites from which to build new vessels going forward. 8 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,560 So what about those boats already in existence? What of those boats that are currently abandoned 9 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,600 on ashore lines globally due to no formal recycling, clear procedures, incentives or 10 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,160 supporting legislation when it comes to end of life? I'm really excited to be joined 11 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:12,640 by Guillaume Perben, CEO and co-founder of a Swiss based company with a global mindset 12 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:17,080 aptly named composite recycling. Guillaume, thank you so much for joining me. 13 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,720 Well, thank you for having me. Thank you very much, Holly. 14 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,080 You are very welcome. I'm very excited for this conversation because I think there's 15 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:29,360 at least four different episodes we've already done on the issue and opportunity of end of 16 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:34,280 life boats in particular. And whilst we've obviously explored manufacture and actually 17 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,720 building new materials which can be almost undone at the end of life, you're approaching 18 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,280 it, looking at materials that already exist and how we can start sort of breaking them 19 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,840 down and reusing them again. Is that right? 20 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:52,000 Yes, composite materials can be found in two different channels that both affect the marine 21 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,840 industry particularly. It's the end of life of your old boats, but it's also the production 22 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,560 waste from producing new boats because when you produce a boat, for example, you need 23 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:07,320 the mold for the hull, but you need to then cut the hatches, you need to cut all the different 24 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:12,560 holes for the engine, for the plumbing, and those become production scraps whereas there 25 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:17,320 are new composite materials. So disposing of those materials can be either critical 26 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:23,560 for owners of boats for the end of life or boat producers for the current operations. 27 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:30,120 So what effectively we did say 56 years ago was design these materials to be incredibly 28 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:35,240 durable, but at the time we weren't really considering the recyclability, right? So composite 29 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:42,480 recycling, your company is looking at how to shift away from the disposal landfill incineration 30 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,560 of basically end of life, GRP, and being able to turn it into something different. How did 31 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,160 you get into it? How did this company come about and what is your main goal? 32 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:57,040 Well, it came about because both my co-founder Pascal Gallo and I are sailors. We have sail 33 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:03,760 boats and they're GFRP boats and we both love the ocean. I'm sailing in the Mediterranean 34 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:09,480 and I love the sea. I love the wind. I don't love the fact that my boat is not recyclable 35 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:14,960 and that really bothers me and I have kids. They love sailing with us, but I don't like 36 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:20,160 to see those old boats, those wrecks in the harbors that are clogging the harbors. And 37 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,840 my co-founder is a physicist. We both know each other because our sons are best friends 38 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,520 and it really started at birthday party of the kids and I was telling him it really bothers 39 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:35,040 me this non-recyclability. And as a physicist, he told me there's a way to separate the 40 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:40,600 fibers from the resin. And then we work with the Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne, 41 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:46,720 which is a very prominent university here. And they have a very, very talented laboratory 42 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:51,240 working on composites. It's called the Laboratory for Processing of Advanced Composites. And 43 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:57,080 the director is a very known person, the professor Michel, in the world of composite materials. 44 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,120 So we went to speak to her and she told me everybody knows how to do this. And I was 45 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:07,720 a bit surprised and she was like, no, in the science world, we all know how to do this. 46 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,760 And I went to, it was at my brother's, a naval architect, and we know a lot of people 47 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,680 he's from the Southampton Institute. We have a lot of friends in this industry. And at 48 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:22,840 a meeting with other naval architects, really famous ones, I told them, guys, problem fixed. 49 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:26,880 I mean, the science world knows how to do this. And they came back and said, you know, 50 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,960 this is the Holy Grail. I mean, nobody knows how to do this. We found such a gap between 51 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:37,480 what scientists know and what the industry considers impossible that we thought we need 52 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:43,720 to fill that gap. So without saying it is easy, the fact that it's doable was interesting. 53 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,040 And then we found the next hurdle, which was, yeah, sure, it's possible, but economically, 54 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,800 it's not viable. And then technically, it doesn't work very well, simply because the 55 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:57,640 tests that have been done were using machines that could process any type of waste. When 56 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,320 you make a machine that can recycle waste, you try to have as many clients as possible. 57 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:08,640 And for this, you want a machine that can do plastic tables, tires, chairs, kitchen, 58 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:13,560 a waste, whatever you want. And when you try to have a machine that is universal, you 59 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,960 can do everything, but you don't do anything well. So we took the approach of, I had worked 60 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,440 before on the tire recycling project, and the producers of the equipment were telling 61 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,160 me that you need to specialize in the waste. So we designed, this is what's new, we designed 62 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:34,840 an equipment that is only doing composite material. And we particularly do GFRP. So 63 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:39,360 we can't do tires, we can't do plastic tables or anything, we only do this. But by doing 64 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:44,320 this, we're not shredding, we're not moving the material, so we recover the fibers. 65 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,960 It's so fascinating. And I appreciate anyone listening to this won't see the face I pulled 66 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,600 at you when you said that the science world knows how to do this already. It was definitely 67 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:59,280 a what the kind of face, a gas mouth wide open, because you're right, this is something 68 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:05,480 that has been sort of, I wouldn't say reluctantly discussed, but I think because solutions have 69 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,080 been yet to found certainly scalable solutions and energy efficient solutions. And as you 70 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,160 mentioned, the economic viability of those solutions has yet to be proven, you're going 71 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,680 to tell me they already have, and that you're the solution. We'll get to that in a second. 72 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,760 It has just been this kind of elephant in the room, I think for so long and increasingly. 73 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,480 So that must have been an exceptionally exciting moment for the two of you to see that there 74 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,520 was this possibility and that you had this desire and the passion for making the change. 75 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,360 And actually, you just needed to slot the two together. Obviously, we'll discuss some 76 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:39,880 of the issues that still exists in making that process really viable. But so let's start 77 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,080 with the environmental perspective, right? The process of breaking down these fibers, 78 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,880 how energy intensive is that? Because there comes a point where you think, hey, we can 79 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,840 break stuff down, but it takes millions of tons of water, it takes a ton of electricity, 80 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:57,520 and the net environmental impact or energy kind of ratio is not actually palatable at 81 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,800 all. So how have you approached that differently? And what is the energy process required in 82 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,000 order to separate these materials? This is a central question. It's absolutely 83 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,240 central because there's no point in recycling something if you produce more waste. And that's 84 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,880 why, for example, we looked at something called solvulences, which is chemical recycling. 85 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,920 But when you do chemical recycling, you basically use a chemical bath in which you put your 86 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,360 composites and the separation works really well. So you really get great fibers. The 87 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:31,160 thing is, your chemical bath, and I'm putting here a very famous oil company, R&D director, 88 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:36,600 who told me at the Tech World last year, he produces soup of chemicals that nobody knows 89 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,800 how to deal with. So you basically move the problem from the composite to the soup. And 90 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,120 then what do you do with your soup? That's an issue. So we decided to go for something 91 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,120 that is, in our opinion, by far the best process for, particularly for glass. It also works 92 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:55,480 well with carbon, but for glass, it's amazing. So basically, we heat the composite without 93 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:00,880 oxygen. It's called thermolysis. When you do this, you prevent combustion because there's 94 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:05,800 no oxygen. The resin, the plastic part is not burning. Instead, it's vaporized. This 95 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:12,160 vapor, we condense it and that become what can be condensed, most of it becomes oil. 96 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:18,880 And what cannot be condensed remains gas, which can be used to power the machine. That's 97 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:24,920 the theory. Now, in reality, depending on the type of composite you have, you get more 98 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,800 or less energy from the gas you can burn. So for the beginning, we're going to start 99 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:36,480 with propane gas or electricity, right? And to give you an idea, if we use propane gas, 100 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:45,640 we basically for, let's say, one kilo of composite treated, we emit 0.6, 0.7 kilo of CO2. It's 101 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,240 not zero CO2. It will be, but we're reviewing at the moment solutions for capturing CO2. 102 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,480 They're simply not available today. So we're reviewing them. Now, again, to compare apples 103 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,760 and apples, when you produce one kilo of GFRP between the resin and glass, roughly, you emit 104 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:05,440 between three and five kilos of CO2. So by giving a new life to the GFRP, instead of 105 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:10,600 reproducing three to five kilos, you produce 0.6, 0.7. Now, to put things in perspective, 106 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,880 think about it when you want carbon on your beautiful sailboat, when you produce one kilogram 107 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:20,880 of carbon fiber, you emit between 40 and 70 kilos of CO2. So you really need to think 108 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:26,480 hard on whether you really need the carbon or not. Because, for example, a 60 foot IMOCA 109 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:31,840 boat carbon, the boat plus the mold, they've calculated they meet between five and 600 110 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:37,200 tons of CO2 for one boat. Do you really need carbon? Back to what we're doing. So today, 111 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,560 we do emit CO2. We do consume energy. It's very small compared to the material retreat. 112 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:47,680 And that's in the case we use propane. Our first machine is coming this summer and will 113 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:52,040 be deployed in Western France. We have a partnership with Veolia that we're about to announce. 114 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,480 So it's a scoop review. We're going to be on a site in Western France. Why? Because the 115 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,560 region around Nantes and San-Azerre, they have a lot of shipyards. They have a lot of boat 116 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:07,920 builders. They not only build yachts, they also build cruise ships in San-Azerre. And 117 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:13,000 a little bit more, the DCNS or naval group, where they build nuclear submarines, whose 118 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:18,360 interior is also made of composite material. Now, France, we're always specific because 119 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,360 that's how it works best. But our solution also needs to be adapting to the environment 120 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:28,800 where we are. Obviously, the idea is we need to emit as little as possible. So in France, 121 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:35,560 85% of the energy electricity is nuclear. So the machine, it's designed for this. You 122 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:39,960 can decide whether you use burners for the gas or if you replace the burners by an electric 123 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:46,120 heater. So it uses electricity. If we use 85% of nuclear electricity, then the CO2 emissions 124 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:51,800 are way lower, obviously. So it's not a debate on the type of energy. It's just practically 125 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,880 what you emit. So we need to be agile. We need to adapt to the local environment. Now, 126 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,920 if we go to Germany where the electricity is made from coal, obviously we want to burn 127 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:05,320 gas because there's less emissions. So it's all about adapting. And the first machine 128 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:11,640 we have is fitting in a 30 foot container. And the 30 foot container, because it's not 129 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,840 a maritime container, it's a container with a hook for the hydraulic hooks from waste 130 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,240 management trucks. And that means we can move it using existing equipment. So if we need 131 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,440 to move it, we don't need to wait for a crane. We can use any truck that they have and it 132 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:32,040 can be moved. That's really important. Today, nobody's sorting composite waste. If you go 133 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:37,440 to a shipyard, there's no incentive to sort the waste because it's an extra work that 134 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:43,560 your operators are doing. But in a shipyard, when you build a new boat or where you disassemble 135 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:47,320 an old boat, you're going to have, of course, the composite, but you're going to have the 136 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,600 wood from the panels from the cabins. This is not pure wood. This is a wood that has 137 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,720 varnish on it. This is wood that has glue on it. So you cannot recycle it. It's not 138 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:02,240 wood that you can put back to make new furniture. It's much more difficult. All of this is put 139 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:08,320 in the same bin and goes in the same landfill. So it's not sorted. The result is we don't 140 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:14,600 know how much composite there is to be treated. The European Composite Association in Brussels 141 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,680 has just launched a big river close to them. They've launched a big poll across all their 142 00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:27,720 members in Turkey, and they found between 500,000 and 700,000 tons in 2024 of composite waste 143 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,720 in Europe alone will be produced 2025. It's probably going to be 800,000 tons and it's 144 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:38,400 going up and up and up. A marine of this is about 15,000 tons if I'm not mistaken. And 145 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:44,960 so at the moment, we think it's that. But because it's not sorted, if you own a shipyard 146 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,800 and you're building boats, until I tell you, please sort your waste, you're not going to. 147 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,600 But if we did this with Benetor recently and they're super happy, they're sorting their 148 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,480 waste now, they put it in a separate bin for composites. For us, it's great because it means, 149 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,400 aha, we know this. That's the reason why we have a mobile unit. We need to come to understand 150 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:08,960 where the streams of waste are, and then we can build a larger fixed capacity unit. If 151 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,840 the mobile unit is in the wrong location, well, it's mobile. So we can put it closer 152 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,880 to the waste sources. It's incredibly interesting. I'm just smiling because I've got so many 153 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,720 questions. It's firstly fascinating that you'll mention of sort of, I appreciate the Amok 154 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,880 of Boats, right? They're wonderful. We always have it. It's part of being human is, you 155 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,680 know, we're acquisitive, we have to innovate, we have to progress and there is invention 156 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:34,960 and ingenuity at play always. So there is actually quite a tight rope to walk between 157 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,520 obviously innovation and ingenuity and sort of forward thinking, particularly when it 158 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,840 comes to materials and obviously the environmental impact, as you mentioned. And carbon is something 159 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,480 that actually is only really, is a very recent, certainly more recently accessible to the 160 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:54,080 marine industry. And you'll see carbon mass even increasing in popularity, their weights, 161 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,720 their performance, their flexibility, et cetera. And also, as you rightly pointed out, these 162 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:02,720 high performance sailing boats, whose goal is obviously to get even more high performance, 163 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:07,480 carbon is a very palatable material to use over GRP and FRP for that kind of area of 164 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,720 the industry, right? Well, I thought so until I had a wonderful 165 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:18,360 lunch with skippers and the, I forgot to name the director of the class of the Ocean 166 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:24,680 50 Trimerans. Ocean 50 does not want to use carbon fiber because, and this is where she 167 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,680 re-blued my mind, I was so astonished. Basically, the Ocean 50 class approach and the class 168 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,920 40 as the same approach is to say, what matters to the public, so the people who look at the 169 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:40,680 logos of the sponsors on the boat, what matters to them is not that you cross the Atlantic 170 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:46,040 in six days, five hours, 30 seconds, what matters to them is that it's Holly who won 171 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:52,600 the race. So it doesn't matter, when you switch that paradigm, it means we don't care how 172 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,040 fast you go, we care your race first, because that's the point of a race as opposed to a 173 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,880 record. Are we doing a race or are we doing a record? And this leads to, if you're doing 174 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:07,160 a race and who a race first is what matters, then as long as everybody's using the same 175 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:14,080 material, we're fine. Which means glass fiber is perfectly fine, as long as not one boat 176 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:20,200 uses carbon fiber to give them an unfair advantage. And then you're good. And the whole thing 177 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:25,960 leads to an entire class of racing boats, all of a sudden not using carbon anymore. 178 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,320 And at the Jec world, this year, I was on a panel with an incredibly talented guy, Erwin 179 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,240 Foscher, he's the head of material innovation at Benito. He was asked a question by someone 180 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:41,160 who does race boats in Brittany. And she was very pushy. She was like, but you talk about 181 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:46,600 glass fiber, do we have a proper solution for long carbon fibers, recycled ones? And 182 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,920 he told her, he said, and you know, Benito, they're pretty innovative. They're doing these 183 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:55,240 boats with recycling resin from Arkema and great results. He was very direct. He said, 184 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,240 do you need carbon? It's a fair question. 185 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,960 It's an incredible question. And you've just flipped the whole paradigm entirely on its 186 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,120 head, which is very refreshing, but somewhat daunting, because you're absolutely right. 187 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,160 As long as the playing field is level, there has to be parity between all entrants, because 188 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,640 appreciating there's a, you know, a couple of kind of campaigns and projects that we've 189 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,040 been working on with a few very well known sailors around, do you need a brand new mocha 190 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,880 to do the race? Can you use the second hand one? And obviously the perception is very 191 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,240 much, well, you're not going to win the race. You're probably not going to be in the top 192 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,480 five against some of the newer boats, obviously, that have been created in the last two, three, 193 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:36,440 five years. But as you said, if everyone has the same tool, then it really comes down to 194 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,640 skill and not just the performance of the vessel that you're using to get there. 195 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:45,040 A naval architect told me a friend of mine, he told me that the Class 40 of 2024 are as 196 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,920 fast as the Emocha of 20 years ago. So the Class 40 is glass, the Emocha is carbon, but 197 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:55,920 he said it makes us naval architects sweat more on the design, but we find ways. And 198 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,720 I don't know about you. And frankly, I'm not a, I'm not a racer. I don't have the level. 199 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,240 I just love cruising. I remember very well the name of the people who won the last Transat 200 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,000 Race. I have no idea how many days or minutes it took them. 201 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,920 You're right. The truth is the spirit of the competition, isn't it? In that sense. But 202 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,040 I mean, it's fascinating because I think that the carbon point is going to be a really interesting 203 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:20,360 one to watch. It leads nicely into this obviously, friendly, important topic about regulation, 204 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:26,080 right? If carbon is responsible for that exceptional figure that you gave around the 205 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:32,120 CO2, expended for the creation of one boat, then there is only so far that individuals 206 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:39,120 can go to make the right choice over performance. And are you seeing and how much of your business 207 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:44,240 is responding quite actively to the change in legislation and regulation, particularly 208 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,560 in Europe? What are you finding there? 209 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:52,560 We were invited that the European Commission in Brussels in March to the end of life of 210 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:59,520 recreational boats workshop. It's a dialogue. And if you talk to the policy officer of maritime 211 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:05,720 affairs, she's incredibly sharp. She doesn't hate composites. She just responds to the 212 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:11,960 opinion at the European Parliament that we've let composites in general to lose because 213 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:18,200 incinerating them, when you burn one kilogram of plastic, you emit 2.5 kilos of CO2. Don't 214 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:23,400 burn them. But at the same time, lengthening them, well, it's a temporary solution. It 215 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,520 can't continue like this because then we talk about boats, but now wind turbines are arriving 216 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:34,320 and what do we do with this? So it's a question. Now, the legislators, what we hear from them 217 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:39,520 is we can't force people to do what's not possible. At the same time, we need to change 218 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:44,800 things. So we work together with the European Co-Poison Association and the European Boating 219 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:50,640 Industry as well, the EBI, very close to them as well to say, look, there are ways, there 220 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,640 are alternatives. And there is the brutal way that Austria has applied, which is to 221 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:01,440 say from 2022 onwards, every lengthening incineration or exporting of composites is 222 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,600 forbidden. It makes mountains of waste. They don't know what to do with them. They're desperate. 223 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,760 We don't have to go that hard. We can also just work together. And that's what we're 224 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:16,680 doing. That's what we work with them to create recycling branches of composite material. 225 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:22,200 Now, you know, Holly, we have a great solution. It works really well, but it's a technology. 226 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,160 It's not enough. Technology is not the silver bullet that will fix everything and let's 227 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:32,320 move on to something else. So the idea is not to ban composites because we all love boats. 228 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,960 And frankly, without composites, boating or yachting still would be a very rich person's 229 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,560 hobby and we would not have the money to do that. So because as beautiful as they are, 230 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:48,240 the wooden boats, they need a bit more attention and budget. So composites, they fuel innovation. 231 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:53,280 They fuel a lot of great things. And we need to continue using them. And we just need to 232 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:59,200 make them recyclable. There's been a very strong symptom of how much the recycling of 233 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:05,320 JFRP has been considered impossible is the development of the organic fibers, the hemp, 234 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,800 the linen, the flax. These are good for some applications. Some shipyards have very strong 235 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,920 opinions about them, not positive. But the thing is, they're a symptom that we needed 236 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,840 something else. So regulators look at this and they're like, okay, propose something 237 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:25,400 to us and we'll work together. And so our role is to say, there is the technology, but 238 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,960 it's only one piece of the puzzle. We also need waste management companies to talk to 239 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:35,600 their clients and to say, look, shipyard, look, it's important to sort the waste. There is 240 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:40,120 an incentive behind this. And if you don't do this, it will be forbidden like in Austria. 241 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,680 And then you have a big problem. And those waste management companies, we need to show 242 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,320 them it's our responsibility. And that's why we have this conversation with them, that 243 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:54,360 we can do something with the outputs of the recycling. This is our role. And to the regulators, 244 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:58,920 it's also important to show them we're not greenwashing. If you go to the legislator 245 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:04,240 and say, yeah, I can reuse the fibers. They're not great, but we're going to make just compounds 246 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:12,080 to do construction stuff. It's not recycling. It's downcycling. We prefer to say we can redo 247 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,880 chopstone and map. That's why we work with Chomara, with Benito, and we've done chopstone 248 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,120 and map with them. So we keep the value as high as possible. It means much more work. 249 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:24,520 And then you have the oil. What do you do with the oil from the resin? Well, we were 250 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,680 in the United States two weeks ago, you can tell them, like some people say, we're going 251 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,360 to make fuel. We're going to make diesel fuel. I'm sorry, but and you talk to the policy 252 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:40,400 officer in Brussels, she says, never, you can never consider that diesel is a clean recycling 253 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:46,320 product. It's not true. When you burn diesel, it's polluting. Instead, we say, let's take 254 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:51,920 an economic approach. If you take an economic approach, okay, I do diesel fuel, I sell it 255 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:57,520 one time and then I burn it. We prefer to say we do plastics. So we separate the monomers 256 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,880 and we work with some of the most prominent oil companies in Europe and the US now. Because 257 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:08,080 when you do plastic with the tamales oil, it's more homework. It's much more work. But 258 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,920 then you produce plastic, then you can recycle that plastic. You sell it a second time. And 259 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:18,880 then you can recycle it again and you sell it again. So the key is we need to have a 260 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,720 solution that is not greenwashing and that makes sense economically. And then it's good 261 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,680 for the environment. But if it does make sense economically and you need taxpayers' money 262 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:35,560 to make it work, never. So the only way to do this we found is if your process is specific 263 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:41,080 to the type of waste, and that's how you get the right parameters. It's a little bit like, 264 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:46,640 if I give you a kitchen, can you be a chef? Not necessary. It depends on what you want 265 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:53,520 to do, how much homework you do. So the equipment is one thing. But sourcing the right material, 266 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,160 knowing the parameters of treatment and knowing what to do with the output, then the legislator 267 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,080 listens to you and they start to say, okay, it makes sense. 268 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,000 And also approaching it, as you mentioned, with a degree of continued circularity. You're 269 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,520 not recycling something once. You're doing it with the aim of dividing it into components 270 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:15,480 again, which can then be reused and recycled almost ad infinitum to a degree. But I think 271 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,200 you mentioned something interesting around, you said a comment about hating GRP. And obviously 272 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,760 we've had this very similar sort of conversation the last, say, five years in particular, in 273 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:30,000 terms of a really wide scale public conversation around plastic and the sort of demonization 274 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,840 of plastic. And a bit like, if you gave me a kitchen, would I be a great chef? No, I 275 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:41,280 mean, the kitchen is the tool, right? Plastic is just a tool. GRP, FRP are just tools. And 276 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,360 actually how we utilize them, how we waste them, how we capture them, separate them, 277 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:50,800 etc. is really the key. As you mentioned, having one piece of that puzzle isn't enough. 278 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:56,440 No, it's a whole branch. And that's why we try to get everybody because I mean, for us, 279 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:01,400 sure, I can find very talented engineers and scientists and they will design a wonderful 280 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,760 solution. And then we'll go out in the world and wonder if this hammer we built has a nail 281 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,720 that corresponds to it. No, no, no, we need to talk to these people. Like, for example, 282 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:16,320 the fibers we produce, we found that we can produce chop stranded mat with them. Okay, 283 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,800 it's not textile yet, because we wanted to take the approach, we will remelt them as 284 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,360 well to produce long fibers. But first, we will not melt them and re blend them with 285 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,760 virgin fibers to make chop stranded mat. We want all the approaches, we should not be 286 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,280 dogmatic, we can do math that we're melting, which is obviously wonderful. But then we can 287 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:39,960 also we know this because we try produce long fibers by remelting them or glass wool installation, 288 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,360 because it works the same way. Now, recycle glass into glass wool installation, making 289 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:50,680 homes more efficient. It's also a good thing to do. Now, the mats we produced was not in 290 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:57,000 our lab only, we also produced it with Schumacher. It's a prototype, but they produced six meters 291 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:03,400 of it. And then it went, it was not enough. So we took it to Benito and Benito in their 292 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:09,440 yard, we did pieces with our mat. Again, it's not a series of boats, but it's pieces. Because 293 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:15,600 what was super important to us was your shipyard, and you have workers that do boats. For those 294 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,880 workers, the operating procedures should not be different, whether you use virgin or recycled 295 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,680 material, the resin should work the same way. The tools should be the same. If you're a 296 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:31,160 shipyard, and I'm telling you, you need to spend 300 pounds on new tools on new procedures 297 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,240 on new this on new that, just because it's recycled for the planet, you're never going 298 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,880 to go for it. So for us, we need that dialogue, because otherwise we produce something that 299 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,960 never works, you know, in reality, we're very happy with ourselves, but it's not realistic. 300 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:50,440 So there is that. And then I think in terms of recycling of plastics and composite materials, 301 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:57,520 to us, there is a very strong difference between using products from the oil as a fuel or to 302 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,720 make plastic. And to us, the approach, we don't believe at all at composite recycling 303 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:08,320 that there should be a ban on plastic. I mean, no, I mean, I'm not giving away my boat. 304 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:14,160 But the thing is, not using so much fuel, that makes more sense. But then it's our responsibility 305 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,600 to get the oil of a quality that is as high as possible to enable this. 306 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,400 And where do you feel sort of the burden of costs rests in this, right? Because you talked 307 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,120 about sort of the environmental viability, and touched on the economic viability, because 308 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:34,360 we're seeing different states and legislations kind of toying around with producer responsibility, 309 00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:42,000 right? So if I'm a major fizzy drink manufacturer, and I produce however many cans of my fizzy 310 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,200 drink a year, ultimately, what happens to those fizzy drink cans at the end of life, 311 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,200 are my responsibility. And this is something a couple of countries have been playing with, 312 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:58,080 is that ultimately, the producer has the responsibility to recover and process end of life materials 313 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:04,400 hasn't really necessarily been entirely successfully passed yet. I know obviously the UK is a good 314 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:10,160 example of another country that's trying this out. But ultimately, how do you do that without 315 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,120 sort of breaking the whole system? Because if I said to you, right, you're a boat manufacturer, 316 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:19,400 you've now got to accept back all end of life boats under your brand and deal with them. 317 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,800 The cost of your procedure effectively increases, because whether it's collection storage, whatever 318 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,200 else as you mentioned, that cost ultimately will get passed on to the consumer, which 319 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,400 obviously affects your marketability of your products changes the demographic potentially 320 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,280 of who you can actually target and who is willing to buy your product because of the 321 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:41,480 increased cost. So is it on me or should it be on me as a boat owner? Do we incentivize 322 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,920 at that level so that when my boat is completely sad and unhappy, can't be used anymore? Am 323 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:53,760 I incentivized to dispose of it correctly? Should it be the producer, say it's a 1974 324 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:59,240 Swedish boat? I mean, it's a really tricky issue. It's not as if it was a pot of plastic 325 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,400 that you bought from a supermarket a couple of weeks ago. We're talking decades and decades 326 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:09,240 ago that we're potentially asking producers to take responsibility for. It's really complex, 327 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,680 right? So where does the incentive lie in the chain? Do you think or should it lie in 328 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,760 order for this to become perhaps more of a cohesive system with boats in particular? 329 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:24,800 So we wish we had the answer here in Switzerland. We don't. But we found a good answer that 330 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,200 was actually presented at the workshop in Brussels at the European Commission. The French, 331 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,480 they have implemented a, you know, they're very like the UK, they're big boat producers. 332 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,240 UK, we work very closely with the National Composite Centre and they do a tremendous 333 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,560 work on the subject. In France, they set up a system where, okay, the first, they taught 334 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,960 us this. So I didn't invent it. It's their research that has done this and they've done 335 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,360 an amazing work on that. The one who has the problem of end of life of boats is the last 336 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,240 owner of the boat. He's also the one or she who has the least money because when you talk 337 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:04,680 about a 40 or 50 year old boat, it's not the same budget as a brand new one. So they thought 338 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:11,480 this is unfair. And in order to fix this, we need to find who is responsible for putting 339 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,040 the boat on the water first. It's the first owner. And they happen to be the ones with 340 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:21,000 the most money. And if it's a rental company, they will also find I'm saying that so that 341 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:26,400 that can also help. So what they've done is they call it eco contribution. They have to 342 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:31,360 change the law in France for this. So whenever you register a new boat and my boat is registered 343 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:37,520 in the Mediterranean, so in France, and every year I pay a tax because my boat is with a 344 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,240 French flag. It's not a Swiss flag, it's a French flag. But I know that by paying this 345 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:46,440 tax at registration when it's new and every year, every boat that is registered in the 346 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,200 country, when I want to dispose of it, it won't cost me anything. They will come pick 347 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:56,320 it up and they will take it to a reconstruction center. It's actually a waste management company. 348 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:01,920 It's the same location where municipalities send their municipal waste and also where 349 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,440 they deal with vehicle racks, the car racks and stuff like that. That is important because 350 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:12,440 it means they already have the infrastructure to deal with oil, gas, diesel, all these things. 351 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,920 And that means retention floors, if it rains on it, you know, and so they take care of 352 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:25,240 that. They're paid to do this by the tax that was collected from my yearly fee that I pay. 353 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,320 The boats are typically they remove the what's worth money. So the mast is aluminum, typically 354 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,640 the engine is metal as well. They kill for a sailboat, you know, the railings, all these 355 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:40,520 things. And then they remove the wood. The wood can be chopped and then they do stuff 356 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,000 with it. That is like a key furniture stuff like that. They depolute the hulls, black 357 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,920 waters, diesel, oil, engine oil. And today they're left with the hull. Now this is where 358 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,800 it's interesting for us because we don't know how to take a boat and disassemble it. But 359 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,800 the composite is interesting to us. The composite from old boats is much more complex because 360 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,160 we don't really know what's been done over 40 or 50 years, what kind of paint has been 361 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,760 put on the boat. So it is more difficult. But this is a structure where it's not the 362 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,520 last owner of the boat that pays. And they're actually encouraged not to abandon their boats, 363 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:22,400 but to get rid of it. And you have these situations where you inherit the boat of your grandfather 364 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,240 who just passed away. What happens? Well, the boat is worth nothing. And you need to pay 365 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,680 10000 pounds for getting rid of it. You're not getting rid of it. You abandon it. They 366 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:37,480 had to change the law as well for depossessing the boats from their owners. Because on abandoned 367 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:43,560 boats, typically marinas and harbors are not ready to take the responsibility of destroying 368 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:49,800 someone else's property. Well, and lawsuits, what happens if you're the harbormaster and 369 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:55,080 then you say, there's 20 boats that occupy birds, they're not paying the rent. So it's 370 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,240 revenue I don't get because it's a lot of money that could pay for extra people in my 371 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,920 team. I'll get rid of them. I'll destroy them. And then two years later, someone comes from 372 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,040 I don't know, Latin America and says, you destroyed the boat of my grandfather. I'm 373 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,200 going to sue you. It's a huge responsibility. And they they're not equipped for that. It's 374 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,920 not at all what they're doing. So they had to pass a law that says that after I forgot 375 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:21,680 how many months, but after X months, if nobody's responding to our calls or the boat is deemed 376 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,400 abandoned, and we can destroy it. So when you start pulling the consequences of all 377 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,400 this, it really is much more than just the technology. 378 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,600 This isn't necessarily the first time something like this has been done. I mean, I appreciate 379 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:39,360 that different countries have different emotions, let's say around registering of boats. It's 380 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,480 not a legal requirement necessarily, certainly in the UK. So often you don't know who the 381 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,920 owner is, particularly when boats get abandoned. There hasn't been much appetite, particularly 382 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,000 within the sailing community to have boat registration. I think there's a bit of reticence 383 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:59,560 around it. However, we do it with cars, right? And we know if a car is abandoned, who it 384 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,160 belongs to, certainly who it's registered to, there's a central register obviously that 385 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:08,480 says, hey, that number plate is registered to Holly, she's dumped it, therefore, XYZ. 386 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,280 And there are obviously laws in place in a similar kind of context, which say, after 387 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,720 a certain amount of time, if this is abandoned on a public highway or otherwise, that we can 388 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,480 dispose of it. So there is already some areas of legal infrastructure existing, certainly 389 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,960 in Europe and the UK in particular, which can facilitate obviously a similar template 390 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,560 for boats. But I appreciate, like you've mentioned, it is new. And obviously the marine industry, 391 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,800 marine as harbor masters, whatever else aren't traditionally set up to cater for this as an 392 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,480 increasing issue. I think this is the point, right? It's increasing and it's more expensive. 393 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,840 It is. And I think it's the University of Brighton in the UK that has done a lot of research 394 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:51,720 on the consequences of Radio Canada have made a report on the consequences of abandon ships 395 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:58,360 in the water. And they just showed with this University, they find glass fibers in oysters. 396 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:04,400 I mean, so that really gets the attention of regulators, right? Because, yeah, as you 397 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,680 said, in the UK, there's no registration. So how do we fix this? It's, I say it's a 398 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,160 big issue, right? But it's a massive opportunity. I think that's the key thing. That's obviously 399 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,840 something that you and your co-founder have clearly identified as there is such a possibility. 400 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,040 And initially it is about joining the dots because as you mentioned, there's a scientific 401 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:26,480 solution or solutions in play with the industry that actually needs to employ them and industries. 402 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,080 I mean, we're not just talking about boats here, as you rightly pointed out at the very 403 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:36,640 beginning, whether it's wind turbine blades or car floors in high performance vehicles. 404 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,880 I mean, these materials are quite widespread beyond just marine itself. So there's certainly 405 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:47,560 a massive market in terms of providing an economically environmentally viable solution 406 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,520 to. Yeah, absolutely. The automotive industry 407 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:56,120 is under tremendous pressure because in the EU by 2030, so it's in six years time, five 408 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:02,000 and a half now, for each new vehicle, a quarter of the vehicle will need to be made of recycled 409 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:07,800 material. So that's a trend. And that conflicts directly with the opposite trend, which is 410 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,240 composites are about a third of the weight of the metal equivalent, especially when you 411 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:17,640 think of steel. So they're used to make cars lighter. And when they're lighter, it means 412 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,640 it's very good for electric cars. So if you think of an electric car, the battery of the 413 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,760 car is in a box under the car, and that box is made of composites. Hydrogen tanks, we work 414 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,920 on hydrogen tanks as well, they're made with composites. And all of this is because they 415 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:37,080 are lighter. And that means the car doesn't need such a big battery because it's lighter. 416 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,920 But then it's less recyclable because it's made of composite material. So there is a 417 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,440 paradox, but the trend is there. So we just need to make them recyclable. 418 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,920 But this is why it's exciting, right? If it was an easy answer, it wouldn't be innovative. 419 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,200 And I think that certainly why engineers are engineers and scientists are scientists, because 420 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,760 you will likely not get the perfect solution, but it certainly is a process of iteration 421 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,040 and design and redesign and new information and new research. And that I think it's an 422 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:08,040 incredibly exciting area, particularly because it is annoyingly new for marine in comparison 423 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,200 to other industries that are embracing some degree of this technology already. 424 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:18,760 Yeah, it is very exciting, where we're very cautious with is so many people over promise 425 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:24,880 that it's dangerous, that it gets the public away from a solution that is actually working. 426 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,820 And so we always look like we're too cautious. But okay, we start with production waste moving 427 00:36:29,820 --> 00:36:33,480 on to all boats one step at a time. We know it's going to work. We know it's going to 428 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:39,480 happen. But we need to take it one step at a time. And you cannot say that without remelting 429 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:45,720 the glass, you can make new woven glass fibers. That's not true. You don't have the right 430 00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:50,040 length. You can't say you can make carbon with the same properties. That's not true, 431 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,800 because you need to make long fibers with carbon. And you don't know how long the carbon 432 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:59,440 is going to be. Same for glass. So what's really important is, yes, it's possible. Yes, 433 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,320 it's wonderful. And it works very, very well. But it doesn't solve everything immediately. 434 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:09,080 And so that's why we need to be cautious. When you think of the future with this recycling 435 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:14,360 of glass fibers, now we officially partners with Alinghi. We're doing some work with them. 436 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,640 But not only Alinghi, we also work officially with Benito. We work with several boat manufacturers. 437 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,600 The next step, and we know it works, it's super exciting because this is crazy for the 438 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:30,520 boating industry, is the molds that give the shape of the boats. Those can be recycled. 439 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:36,160 You can take the mold and actually extract the glass fibers from them and do a new mold, 440 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,960 which means you don't need, when you have your shape of your hull, you don't need to 441 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,520 have your mold and then try to amortize with thousands of boats with the same shape, because 442 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,200 the mold at the end of its life, you don't know what to do with it. Instead, we can say, 443 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,200 if you want to change your design, we can take care of the mold, we give you new fibers, 444 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,920 and you make a new mold. So the economics of boat building are completely changing when 445 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,880 you think about this. Because all of a sudden, it gives you a flexibility in the design that 446 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:07,920 you can not do large series. You can just do small series, and it will not be that much 447 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,760 more expensive because there is a recycling solution. 448 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,120 Which is the key element, right? It has to be financially value driven as much as environmentally 449 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:20,320 value driven, as we've seen. If anything is much more expensive than the existing solution, 450 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,400 then it's very difficult to make it mainstream, as you know. 451 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,440 Yeah, but on the other hand, we're being asked, but you make business with our waste, you 452 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,840 should pay for it. If I pay you to do something, you're incentivized to do more. I want you 453 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,400 as a shipyard to produce less waste. That's your job. That's how you should improve your 454 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,160 procedures. So you need to pay for your waste, and you need to understand that there is a 455 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:48,000 cost and that cost so far has been too low. It's not acceptable to say, I'm going to 456 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,920 burn my composite waste so that it turns into smoke that goes into the neighboring countries. 457 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,600 That's not the way to deal with it. I should put it in the ground so that my grandkids 458 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,080 will still need to deal with the problem. That's not the way to deal with it. So waste 459 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,920 has a cost. We pay too little for that cost, and it should start to be, it should be in 460 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:13,360 the minds of people. I mean, I'm a boat owner. I have a sailboat. It's not a life and death 461 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:19,600 need. It's not like bread. It's a luxury thing. And as much as I love my boat, I can pay a 462 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,240 little bit more for recycling it at the end of its life. I think we should also take this 463 00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:28,600 into account and we should be ready to say, you know what, if I can afford a boat, yes, 464 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:34,600 I can put a few hundreds and just know, if only for my peace of mind, that I'm also doing 465 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:35,600 something right. 466 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:42,360 So I think it's huge, isn't it? And I firstly, like Alinghi, incredibly cool, I gave, again, 467 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,000 no one will be able to see this, but I gave him a big chef's kiss at the mention of Alinghi. 468 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,000 Not that I don't respect Benito at all. I mean, obviously fantastic boats, but obviously 469 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,080 everyone's incredibly excited about the America's Cup later this year. So yeah, look forward 470 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,480 to that. So very cool. Congratulations on both. 471 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,080 Thank you. They are neighbors, you know, they're two kilometers away from us. So we know each 472 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,080 other really well. 473 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,840 Of course. Great team. Very exciting. I often sort of come into these conversations thinking, 474 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,480 okay, obviously looking for solutions, which is how, you know, I fortunately end up speaking 475 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,040 to people such as yourself and always think, you know, how far on we and why is this such 476 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,840 a big issue and how do we find a solution for it? But actually, you mentioned something 477 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,680 which is so applicable, which is it doesn't solve for everything. And actually, your solution 478 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,160 doesn't have to solve for everything, but the combination of various solutions. So let's 479 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:34,240 take, you know, when you're producing virgin composites, they're made recyclable firstly. 480 00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:39,600 So that helps with that element of the whole production chain, that something such as your 481 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:44,240 kind of solution looks at production waste. So again, looking at the virgin material from 482 00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:50,320 production, and then also at the end of life sort of solution, combined with the very designing 483 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:55,840 of the boats themselves, designing out waste, because arguably we should be more in control 484 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:02,440 of how much waste is a byproduct of the production process. Alongside the legislative shift that 485 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:08,040 you mentioned and the repositioning of responsibility of the consumer. I mean, this is an incredibly 486 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:13,720 fertile context in which to be looking at this problem as an opportunity. It's really 487 00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:17,680 it's actually incredibly exciting to hear that there are so many pieces of this much 488 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,760 struggled over jigsaw puzzle that are really live and are really coming together to look 489 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,160 at this as something very immediate and very possible. 490 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,040 Absolutely. First, it's the R&D manager of another company who worked with the resident 491 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,720 producer Huntsman. And he said not long ago that the work we're doing together is basically 492 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:40,680 freedom to operate for the industry. Because all the shipyards in the marine industry, 493 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:45,400 the day that they can no longer get rid of their production waste, they're going to struggle 494 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,840 even to survive. So just the freedom to operate for the existing industry is one thing. The 495 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:56,040 end of life of the boats is another thing. And the last chapter, which we start to work 496 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,160 on at the moment is we're a young company, we're only three years old, but we've done, 497 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:06,040 I think, close to a 450 tests between 400 and 450 tests with everything, boats, planes, 498 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:12,040 cars, whatever. And that gives us a good idea of what works and what does not work, because 499 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,840 not all the tests work. If you put certain chemicals in your composites, it's going to 500 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,920 make them less recyclable. So what we do now, and it's really fun, is we are in the position 501 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:27,360 of prescribing. Okay, what can be done, for instance, switch to the helium resin from 502 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:33,040 our chemo. That one, we get close to 90% of the monomers to make directly resin with it. 503 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,840 That works super well. So switch from certain types of resin to other types of resin for 504 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,280 your new production, and you will make your next generation of boats more recyclable. 505 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,720 Same thing for the sandwich of your composites, use this material rather than this one. And 506 00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:50,480 then people ask for this, we have manufacturers of resin for trains the other day that came 507 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:55,480 and said, can you help us do our resin more recyclable? So that is the next phase. So you 508 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,480 have production waste, end of life, and then design. And it's really exciting. It's really 509 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:00,480 fun. 510 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,880 Very, very cool. I think it's also because it's, you can see so tangibly how this is 511 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,600 coming together and it's working, particularly on the element of the designing out the waste. 512 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,400 If you said to someone, hey, design me a boat with, you know, less than 3% waste, that's 513 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,920 the design problem to be solved, you know, and I think that's the responsibility on all 514 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,520 of us to start thinking slightly differently when we're producing anything, whether it's 515 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:26,640 boats or not. I'm very excited for you, obviously being at the forefront of so much of this. 516 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:32,280 If you had one message or one takeaway for anyone listening to this podcast industry, 517 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,800 individual sailors or otherwise, what would it be? 518 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,240 Well, recycling of composites is coming. We're closing the loop, it's coming. 519 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:44,440 Short suite to the point. I like it, Gil. I want to say a huge thank you for joining me. 520 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,280 It's been an absolute pleasure and enlightening to talk to you about something that's long 521 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,680 plagued many people and obviously the marine industry in particular. And I'm very excited 522 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:57,800 to see what, how you develop obviously composite recycling, your company going forward certainly 523 00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,400 over the next couple of years. 524 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:05,000 Guillaume Peben, co-founder of composite recycling in Switzerland. Thank you so much for your time. 525 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,880 Thank you very much, Mali. It's been my pleasure and thank you to everyone. 526 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,000 You've been listening to the Clean Sailors podcast. All relevant links to the projects 527 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,480 and people we talk to can be found with the podcast link. For all episodes or to get in 528 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,480 touch, just visit CleanSailors.com. We love to hear from you. 529 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,600 We believe that great ideas should be shared, which is why our podcast is free to appear 530 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:33,880 on. So if you've got a project, idea or topic, you think we should be discussing, get in touch. 531 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:45,400 In the meantime, thank you for listening and see you for the next episode.