1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:21,440 Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. Let's talk about sea, marine, sailing and 2 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,520 keep it clean. I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with 3 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,680 a passion for the health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with experts, innovators 4 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,120 and activists, all working towards improving the health of our seas, we're showcasing 5 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,480 the people and projects, changing the way things are done. 6 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:46,280 Now the golden rule when spending time in the sun is to cover up and sunscreen up. These 7 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,040 tips are generally the best when it comes to protecting our skin from potentially harmful 8 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:55,840 UVA and UVB rays and any secondary health impacts they can cause such as skin cancer. 9 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,680 These tips are well known, however perhaps less known is the harmful effect that personal 10 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,640 care products including sunscreen can have on our marine environment. 11 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,840 I'm really delighted today to welcome Stuart to our conversation. Stuart is the founder 12 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:15,480 of Himea, a revolutionary sunscreen working to leave the oceans as we found it. Thank 13 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,640 you for joining me Stuart. Thank you. 14 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,920 Now Stuart, tell me a bit about Himea. What do you do? How big are you? How old are you? 15 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:27,800 And what are your values? Himea is still relatively small in the scale of things. I started the 16 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:33,400 concept back in 2002 when I was doing a lot of surf photography, basically because at 17 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:39,000 that time I could not find a sunscreen which was truly waterproof as opposed to water resistant 18 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:45,600 and was a high enough SPF because in those days people still wanted a suntan and I think 19 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,600 the big boys like the Niveas or whatever were only doing a maximum of an SPF 30. So it gave 20 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:57,200 me the idea of making a sunscreen which would be at least SPF 60 plus and 100% waterproof. 21 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:03,280 So I did that and the concept was that the sunscreen is also with mineral filters and 22 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:08,120 the idea is if it stayed on your skin then nothing would go into the ocean. I did that 23 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,880 because also I had noticed whilst doing a lot of in-water photography, so in the water 24 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:18,160 in waves, that sunscreen was actually coming off of me and I could see it glistening as 25 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:24,520 it went away. So that was where the idea came from and once started then also with the company 26 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:31,440 I took a philosophy of trying to be responsible as a company and make sure as much as possible 27 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,840 and we're still trying to make a better solution all the time that the company has no impact 28 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,640 on the environment or society. The pretty tall orders, I mean obviously you mentioned 29 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:46,000 the first being that making a sunscreen that was truly waterproof, eg that stuck to your 30 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,320 skin and didn't get washed off was your primary focus and that secondarily obviously you wanted 31 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:56,680 to be a really environmentally minded, ocean minded company from start to finish including 32 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,560 your packaging and otherwise. But let's start from the beginning. So how is sunscreen traditionally 33 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,680 made? So basically there's two forms of sunscreen. You have sunscreens, well three nowadays I 34 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,520 suppose, and you have sunscreens which are lotions which means they only have oil phases 35 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:16,840 using your normal sun cream and to use the word cream it should have a water and a oil 36 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:22,120 phase and then you have these spray on sunscreens as well. The spray on sunscreens are very 37 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,360 easy to put on and very easy that they come off. So therefore when you're using a spray 38 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,320 sunscreen although it might say water resistant which is the English definition of what you're 39 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,040 allowed to say, it only has to pass a test for 20 minutes and then it can be coming off. 40 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:43,680 So when you use a lotion or ointment it's basically oil. It would stay on the skin because it's 41 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,000 oil but it will leave you with greasy hands so if you're doing sports or anything like 42 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:53,720 that it's not really practical. And then you have the creams and the creams again are traditionally 43 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:59,640 fluid and the mixture of the water and the oil makes it easier to rub in. But also if 44 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:06,360 you formulate it slightly differently you can make sure that the oil phase stays on the 45 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,960 skin very very well and if you put the let's call them the offending parts of the sunscreen 46 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,440 in the oil phase then they will stay on your skin and therefore stop anything going into 47 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,040 the ocean. The problem is, or the problem was at the time, nobody was even thinking about 48 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,600 that so that's what I did and made sure that all the offending parts stayed in the oil 49 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,400 part which stays on the skin and basically pioneered that way of making sunscreens which 50 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,880 has now been copied by many companies over the last 20 years. 51 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,400 I think that's incredibly exciting. I mean you mentioned, you say the word the offending 52 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,040 elements of sunscreen. What is the issue? Why does sunscreen gets a bad rep and how can 53 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,040 it be damaging? 54 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,520 The offending things we're talking about are basically the chemical filters which we use 55 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:54,720 traditionally in sunscreens and they basically absorb the UV light with a chemical reaction 56 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,440 and a lot of them are what we call hormonal filters because they can have an effect on 57 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:04,800 hormones as well. As a sunscreen they enter the first layer of the skin and then absorb 58 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,320 the sun from there and as you say having chemical reactions so therefore you can get things 59 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,760 like skin reactions to such sunscreens and things like that. The offending parts of the 60 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:18,960 filters, the basic ones are the three which were banned in Hawaii, Mexico, Palau and some 61 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,320 of the countries and small islands around the world. They were known about already at 62 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:28,760 the late 90s. It took a while for this refriendly status to come through and it's basically people 63 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,960 saying that their sunscreens are refriendly because they don't have these three ingredients. 64 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:39,720 The problem is if you look and research there's many more chemicals which are also bad and 65 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:46,360 nano mineral is also just as bad and a good way to see a reliable list let's say is on 66 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:54,360 the NOAA website they have a list there. What I did was made sure from the start we couldn't 67 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,760 make a 100% mineral sunscreen in those days because the technology wasn't there in the 68 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:03,280 zinc at the time. Well it was, it just made you completely white like Casper the ghost 69 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:08,520 so we didn't go that way. We had to incorporate some chemical filters right at the beginning 70 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,760 for our first sunscreen which we made already by the second we'd gone completely away from 71 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:19,280 that and those filters which we had we had them encapsulated as well which meant if 72 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:24,160 they ever came off the skin and were in the ocean they're encapsulated in like a silicon 73 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,000 so therefore they'd have no damage in the ocean as well. So right from the start I tried 74 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:34,000 to address this issue of the filters and to get as quick and as fast as I could to a 75 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:39,960 cosmetically pleasing zinc based sunscreen. That's an incredible journey and I think also 76 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:46,920 quite a noble one and just as a slight footnote NOAA the NOAA is the National Oceanic and 77 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:52,680 Atmospheric Administration.gov in the US. But to your point around coming to a sort 78 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:58,160 of a setically or cosmetically useful products as well as a more ocean minded one. I mean 79 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,360 the issue with sunscreen as we've come to hear about it particularly over the last 80 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:06,640 5 to 10 years is that because it's made of those variety of substances and chemical stabilizers 81 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:12,320 that you talked about all which are geared to either absorb or reflect and scatter the 82 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,760 UV light. It isn't a natural substance and whether it's on our bodies or whether it's 83 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,160 getting washed off it is a substance which can potentially contaminate water and research 84 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:26,840 has shown that around 14,000 tons of sunscreen end up in our oceans every year which is not 85 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:31,040 an insubstantial amount. If you think about all of us who wear it whether it's sports 86 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:36,600 people sailors surfers or sunbaters hopping in to cool off in the water. What is it about 87 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,360 do you understand that it's been the topic of sunscreen? Why is it so popular and what 88 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:46,680 is it about the coral reef impact in particular that's garnered so much attention more recently? 89 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,320 The coral reef impact which has been the sort of height of sunscreens and everything like 90 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:55,160 that in the last I'd say 5 years. What is quite incredible is some of the big brands 91 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,800 are still using some of the offending filters even though they know they shouldn't be using 92 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,880 them. They're using them because they're the keepers filters. That's the point. Let's 93 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,440 get down to the basics of this and why they're using them. It's they are absolutely the 94 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:12,480 keepers filters. The reef friendly hype comes since Hawaii made the rule that the sunscreens 95 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:18,160 cannot be imported into Hawaii. Some other countries joined. The big boys have eventually 96 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,960 changed and got rid of most of those filters. Some still don't and they write on their sunscreen 97 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,640 that they are reef friendly. Some are even using the term ocean friendly. Are they truly 98 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,720 reef friendly because they've removed those three offending ones which are listed by those 99 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:37,480 countries? No, because you'll see all the other ones listed by NOAA. Actually, most 100 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:43,120 of them aren't in any way shape or form. But because there is no certification for using 101 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:48,880 the reef friendly word logo, it's still a lot of reef washing as opposed to washing 102 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,040 going on by the big brands. Unfortunately, that's how it is and they won't change until 103 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,480 something else changes. They only did change because the markets which changed and didn't 104 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,640 allow it to be imported had the financial effect on them and then they did actually change. 105 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:06,720 And until that point, they wanted to use the cheapest sunscreen filters available. They 106 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:13,320 bleach the reef. They affect the DNA of the reef and it is relevant when you're swimming 107 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:18,240 or you're near an area where there is a reef. Although it does travel quite some kilometers 108 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,680 or lots of miles, if you're hundreds of miles away and you go for a swim in the water with 109 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:26,880 the offending sunscreens, does it do much damage? Not really. And also we have to put 110 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:33,400 it in perspective. The real damage to the reef is coming from temperature and acidification 111 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:38,200 in the ocean. Those are the real culprits of killing the reef. So although, as you mentioned, 112 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:43,080 the 14,000 tons or so sunscreen which goes in, how relevant is it in the global picture 113 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,920 of bleaching reefs? There hasn't been a study done on that yet. 114 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,840 I think it's a really fascinating conversation around coral bleaching and I appreciate that 115 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,760 it's impacted by a variety of different factors and metrics. I hadn't appreciated actually 116 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,320 one of the most interesting things I learned on the topic was that the corals are actually 117 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,440 animals. I appreciate they're not inanimate or even plants, but they're living, breathing 118 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,760 just like you and I, like your pet dog or pet rabbit and obviously highly sensitive to 119 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,720 stress temperature changes like nutrients. I mean, going back to your point, maybe sunscreen 120 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:19,280 isn't the biggest factor impacting coral reefs. However, it is a substance arguably, which 121 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:25,400 is obviously blocking UV light, right? Scatters and refracts it and absorbs it. So if you 122 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:31,480 have that substance in an ecosystem which uses light or needs light, whether it's on 123 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,140 seagrasses or anything else, it would be fair to say you'd imagine some impact even 124 00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:40,000 if it's not been measured or studied yet. It's not supposed to be in the water. 125 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,320 No, ideally not. I mean, especially if any plants or anything in the water survive on 126 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:50,000 photosynthesis. Yeah, that's pretty important that they get there. New researchers is coming 127 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:56,280 out all the time now. And what we're following quite tightly is the freshwater impacts as 128 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:01,440 well. There is definitely an ecosystem impact from sunscreens in freshwater to do with the 129 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,680 fish, to do with the freshwater lakes. It does have an effect on the fish and it does 130 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:11,160 have an effect on algae. That is known. How much is still studies going on? And Canada's 131 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,640 the one who's actually doing the research in this right now. 132 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:18,000 What's been the most perhaps shocking factor statistic that you've learned so far on the 133 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:23,320 Himea journey? Yeah, the biggest shock from the start to now is the effect on the coral 134 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:28,720 reef, which is often northeast coast of Australia heading up towards Asia. There's an area 135 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,640 there which is just by chance somebody was doing a time lapse photography project there 136 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,440 and recorded it. And basically he was recording over a month and during that month there was 137 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:42,120 an increase of approximately close to one degree. And you see the whole reef bleaching 138 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:47,960 in that one month. The area which was affected was the size of the UK. There was absolutely 139 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,360 incredible. That's very sad. And the other thing that really surprised me actually is 140 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:58,040 99% of people never put enough sunscreen on. And a lot of instructors and people who work 141 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:03,000 in the sun on a daily basis also don't use sunscreen. And those factors are quite scary 142 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,000 when you think about it. I mean, I try to explain sunscreen to people as similar to 143 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,040 brushing your teeth. When you're young, you won't see any effect. You just pay later 144 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,960 in life when you don't use it. So we've often seen those time lapse videos of people and 145 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:21,400 their skin naturally. Obviously we get a little bit softer in the face and the features. But 146 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:27,920 yeah, obviously exponentially by having excessive exposure to UVA and UVB rays in particular. 147 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,240 It is quite surprising to hear given what we know today about the effects of the sun 148 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:37,360 on our skin, particularly prolonged exposure to it. Stuart, tell us about your packaging. 149 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,560 Because I appreciate at the very beginning, there were two things that were important 150 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:44,960 to you with Himeo and creating this product. One was obviously to create a sunscreen that 151 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:50,080 didn't wash off effectively that actually anything stayed on your skin, protecting your 152 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:55,080 skin, but also protecting the water more readily. And secondarily was developing a company, 153 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:01,200 a brand, a value based product, which was as sustainable as it could be. How have you 154 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,080 worked on your packaging with that in mind? That was an issue from the start, which I 155 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,240 wanted to address because I always thought tubes aren't the best thing. And I knew from 156 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,840 following it personally that tubes just are never recycled, although, you know, they have 157 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,440 recycled stamp on them. I spent a lot of last 20 years in Austria, which has been very good 158 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,560 at recycling and sort of probably one of the pioneers in Europe of how much stuff we personally 159 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:26,960 have to take and put it in the recycling ourselves and divide it out and everything. And that's 160 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:32,640 been here over 30 years now. How much was actually recycled is the interesting part. The whole 161 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:38,440 waste system is rather corrupt. It is actually run by the mafia in Italy because there's 162 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:43,240 so much money involved in it. And one of the things was that tubes are never recycled. 163 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,840 That's what I found out. They're basically sent off to, it was China, but recently China 164 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:53,200 has stopped taking all that rubbish. Basically what they do is they sell it off in cubic sizes 165 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,600 or pallets or whatever the measurement is, whoever they're doing it, and then they pay 166 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,760 for it to be recycled and it's exported and it's gone. And it's off their hands and they 167 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,240 have a certificate and the stamp saying it's being recycled. And that's it. Fine. They get 168 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:10,800 their money as a refuge company for removing the refuge from the local council. So I didn't 169 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,880 want to use tubes and I haven't used tubes and I've always tried to select the correct 170 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:21,440 plastics, which are easily recycled locally. Since almost 10 years now, we've gone to every 171 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,360 single package we have is designed that it can be refilled. Also, just recently, actually, 172 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,640 I found that somebody wrote a PhD on the matter of recycling and refilling and they came up 173 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:36,240 with a number of, it's 171% better for the environment to refill than to recycle, which 174 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,920 is quite an interesting statistic. It's just logical. There's no energy involved when you 175 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,960 just refill it and recycling takes energy, has a footprint. So yeah, with the packaging, 176 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:51,120 we've tried to minimize it as much as we can and it is refillable since 10 years and we're 177 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:57,080 still continuing in this direction. We're a bit blocked by laws. For example, about 178 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:02,160 four years ago as the first time, I managed to find some kinds of packaging which were 179 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,600 made from recycled ocean plastic. But the problem is when you're putting cosmetics in 180 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:12,040 it, it comes under the same category as basically food. So therefore, contamination is an issue. 181 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:17,400 And if it's coming from ocean plastic, there's no way of controlling what could be a contaminant 182 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,520 within that plastic and therefore can then contaminate the cream inside. These things 183 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,120 will hopefully change over time as and when things change, we move with them and try and 184 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:31,840 to push the refilling as much as possible because that seems to be the best way to reduce 185 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:37,200 all impact of the packaging. Also, what I wanted to do was make sure any impact we did 186 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:42,240 have, which hopefully we don't because people refit. I started the idea of offsetting the 187 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:48,320 plastic and what can we do with the plastic we've been producing. And through one of my 188 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:53,400 team riders who's also a very ecological person and does eco architecture around the world 189 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,800 has been involved in many projects of bamboo schools built down in Brazil and places like 190 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,200 this. She's very up to date on this stuff. And they had a project they wanted to start 191 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,960 down in Bali and I spoke with them and came up with the idea is can we offset the plastic? 192 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,800 So my idea was for every bottle we sell, can we then remove a bottle from the ocean? And 193 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,560 they said, yes, they can do that. And then they also knew about this. It's an old process 194 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:19,320 called paralysis where you can change plastic back into diesel. And because also you produce 195 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,120 some sort of dust particles off this and this is used in the building industry is apricots 196 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:29,840 also in her eco buildings. That's why she knew about this process. So the idea was then 197 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,440 could we set this up? And then they spoke with a couple of other companies and they 198 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,440 came in on the idea as well. And then now we have a paralysis machine down there, we 199 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:42,200 collect the plastic out of the ocean. We saw what can be recycled and what can't be recycled 200 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,160 and what can't be recycled goes in the machines turning to diesel and then diesel basically 201 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:51,160 goes into that the bigger which digs the plastic out of the ocean. It's a sort of a secular 202 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:56,880 offset system. And basically for every bottle we sell, we remove double that weight in plastic 203 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,240 from the ocean. So therefore we're having actually a positive effect on that part of 204 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:02,240 the environment. 205 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,000 It's an incredibly difficult scenario, isn't it in a way? Because obviously you've got 206 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,680 to create a product, you've got to package that product in a way that meets regulations 207 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,600 and obviously health and safety standards for, as you mentioned, the very nature of the 208 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,280 product being cosmetics and a consumable. Obviously you face the dichotomy about recycling 209 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,400 and the fact that it's plastic. Also trying to be an environmentally minded sustainable 210 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:28,960 based company. It's a quagmire, isn't it? I appreciate there are so many tensions in 211 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,480 this and actually I did want to flag something that I know that you do and I'm really intrigued 212 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,720 for our listeners to hear about it as well is that obviously when it comes to offsetting, 213 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,480 which I appreciate is a longer difficult and different topic. Actually the fact that we 214 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:48,560 use the internet and digital tech so much creates obviously so much of an energy impact 215 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,120 also. So how is Himea even dealing with that? Tell us a bit more about how you found out 216 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:55,120 about it and why that's also important to you. 217 00:17:55,120 --> 00:18:00,120 I mean, the other area we do just go back to the packaging. With the European requirements 218 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,600 that you have to have everything in all the languages and everything, you have to put 219 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,240 everything in a box or you have one of these foldout labels. We put it currently in a box 220 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:12,880 which is totally recycled cardboard and we do this with a project for people who are 221 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:18,680 mentally handicapped and some of these are actually often ex-drug or criminals coming 222 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,160 out who were drug dependent and we work with that place. I personally work with that place 223 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,720 since 94. So it's just been a personal thing of mine. I've always had packaging done there, 224 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,840 leaflets in envelopes and stuff like this. So that's another thing we do. Then to address 225 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:37,560 the CO2 impact of the company, we calculate the CO2 impact of the company as everybody 226 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:43,680 else does but what we also do is try to calculate as much as possible our CO2 impact through 227 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,720 digital media or conference calls, stuff like this exactly what we're doing now. I mean, 228 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,440 for example, a conference call which is 13 minutes or longer produces the same amount 229 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:59,000 of CO2 as driving in a car for 10 kilometers. So actually sometimes it's better to drive 230 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,920 to the person if you know you're having a meeting for an hour and they're less than 231 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,800 10 kilometers away. That's crazy. Yeah. Then the other thing I found out, I was doing a 232 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,840 project during my degree in Falmouth or my master's when I was doing that during the 233 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,520 lockdown and this was one of our projects. We were actually looking at the amount of 234 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:19,800 photos stored in the cloud facilities and then we did some research and I think another 235 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:25,960 one which seems to astound a lot of people is, so Ronaldo has 626 million followers on 236 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:32,800 Instagram and when he makes a post on Instagram, it also produces the same CO2 as a town of 237 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:40,200 1.2 million people using 24 hours. When I started looking into this subject because 238 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:45,040 it was part of a work project we're working on, I was just astounded. I wasn't aware of 239 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,200 it. So then I just looked into everything and emails and emails aren't so bad but the 240 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,760 cloud storage and the way people just chuck stuff on the cloud and just don't even realize 241 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,480 it is quite astounding. Because another one we found out and interesting statistic is 242 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:02,080 the new cloud facility in Ireland from Amazon is going to use more electricity than the 243 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:07,920 city of Dublin. So there's huge amounts of CO2 produced by our digital footprints in 244 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,600 the world. So we also try and calculate that as best as possible and how we calculate it 245 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,440 and everything changes all the time as we can get better data and better accuracy to 246 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:22,400 it but I'm aware of these things and again we double what we calculate and then we plant 247 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,160 mangrove trees in Kenya because that's where I grew up and I know that people run in the 248 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:32,480 project down there and again it has multi-benefits because mangrove trees absorb much more than 249 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,600 tropical trees. The roots work to protect the small baby fish against their natural predators. 250 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,160 These particular fish are very important for the ecosystem on the reef later on in life. 251 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,280 By controlling the cutting of the mangroves as well, the fishing village which runs the 252 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:52,520 project, it's made now the fishing sustainable which it wasn't before and then also with 253 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,880 the other companies involved in it, it's also now paid for a new school and fresh water 254 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,760 and two people full-time employed. So there's social benefits, there's biodiversity, everything 255 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,240 the whole lot because biodiversity that's another subject which is completely underrated 256 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:12,520 at the moment. I agree. I think there's a lot being a truly modern business living in 257 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:18,640 the both societal and complex ecosystem of today's modern world and building for the 258 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,640 future. You mentioned biodiversity but I think it's one incredibly important element whereby 259 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:28,800 companies of today and obviously tomorrow can be adapting to take the wider ecosystem 260 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,320 environment way more in mind. I appreciate there's a lot of schemes and systems set up 261 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,320 like B Corp and otherwise that are trying to drive for these environmental goods but 262 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,960 I think it's now more pronounced than ever that we have to be doing something very differently 263 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,640 and thinking a lot more broadly about how we produce and sell, repurpose, remarket and 264 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,840 also the end of life bits and pieces left over from my products. Just back to Himea 265 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,960 Stewart, why is it so useful for sports people and sailors in particular? 266 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:01,600 Basically, on the sports side, I've done sports all my life and been teaching windsurfing, 267 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,920 everything how to windsurf school when I was younger and I hated the fact that sort of 268 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:11,200 back in the old days there was only sort of an SPF 10 was the maximum probably when I 269 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,760 was young and doing these things. You kept on having to reapply all the time and it was 270 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,200 annoying and you were oily and stuff like this. The point is, as I said to people, putting 271 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:24,200 on sunscreen is like painting a bright orange-worn white. So you won't paint it with one thick 272 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:29,760 coat, you'll paint it probably with two maybe even three thin coats so you get equal distribution. 273 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,000 So what I said Himea, if you want to apply it properly, get up in the morning, you know 274 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,440 you're doing sport, put the sunscreen on straight away, have some breakfast and do it again. 275 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,920 Do a nice little second thin load and as long as you don't rub the skin or embrace the skin 276 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,960 with clothing or wiping your forehead too often and so you'll be pretty much good for the 277 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,040 whole day. It will stay there on your skin. The only problem is with physical blockers 278 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:57,800 like Zinx is when you wipe your skin, you can wipe it physically off. So that is the 279 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,760 downside. The advantage of a chemical one is it will stay in the skin because you can't 280 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:08,120 rub it off but it's actually absorbing the sun rays inside your skin and a physical 281 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:12,200 one sits on top of the skin and creates a shadow. So therefore you have to be wary of 282 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,360 that with physical sunscreens and natural products because that is the downside of it. 283 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:21,280 There's always pros and cons. And I guess obviously for sailors in particular, we've 284 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,160 had a long relationship with Himea by virtue of our Clean Sailors Youth Rating Team as 285 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,320 well who obviously hopefully don't get dunks too often when they're out sailing but being 286 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,200 in that water environment obviously it is a waterproof sunscreen rather than a water 287 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,360 resistant one so it does stay on your skin. 288 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:40,760 Just on the topic of ocean health and Stuart, what's your advice or ask of sailors or the 289 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,240 industry to support the future health of our waters? 290 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,840 If everybody's just a bit more aware of what's going on, I mean it's so great to try and convert 291 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,000 one person to be the most eco-friendly person in the world but again I don't think that's 292 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,280 really the way to go. It's much easier to have 100 people change their habits by telling 293 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,880 them 10% and just be a bit wary about rubbish when you're in the marina and if you see something 294 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,720 like just pick it up, throw it away. And then also all the other aspects of what you throw 295 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,240 into the ocean when you're doing longer periods crossing the ocean, just be aware of what's 296 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,280 actually going to happen and you might think to yourself, it's just me, no it doesn't matter, 297 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,480 it's only a little amount. Yeah but when 10,000 sailors take the same attitude, it's 298 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,400 not just you, it's 10,000 times the amount. So if everybody just did a little bit and 299 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,840 the industry as well, it would be great. I mean basically I love it if any industry, 300 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,880 any brands in the world would start to take the attitude of what I'm trying to do and 301 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,200 just have no impact on the environment or society as a brand. Yes, it will cost you 302 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,960 a bit of money but the world would be a better place if every company did that and some companies 303 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,120 can definitely afford it. I think you're right. Also having the hundreds of thousands of 304 00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:53,160 sailors that we have and the millions and millions of sort of registered and unregistered boats 305 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,520 on our planet, if we did all things differently, a small part differently, then obviously it 306 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,560 has quite a compound impact. And I think most importantly is it's not necessarily stop doing 307 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,760 what we're doing but to consider doing it slightly with different products. It's not 308 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,920 to say don't use sunscreen because it's polluting our waters but it's find a sunscreen that 309 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,720 pollutes less or doesn't pollute. So I think it's more mindful about the products that 310 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,320 we're using and we're living in an exceptional time and there's so many creators and innovators 311 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:26,160 such as yourself who are producing products geared with the very sort of design specification 312 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,720 of having as little environmental impact as possible. So it's very exciting that we have 313 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,640 got more choice now to look at these products differently than we ever have done. 314 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,720 A long time ago now, I mean I say a long time ago because it was 20 years ago when I started, 315 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,960 we couldn't make these products as good as the traditional versions and it was a bit 316 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:48,360 of a compromise to use them. But nowadays, I mean I can say my sunscreen applies just 317 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:52,280 as easily as any other sunscreen. It rubs in, it doesn't leave you white so there's 318 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:57,160 no hardly any cosmetical difference at all. And it protects you better than the regular 319 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,760 sunscreen because it hasn't got those nasty filters which can also have effect on people's 320 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,760 skin and your rashes and stuff like this. And this is probably the same in a lot of other 321 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,840 areas you know like washing fluids and whatever. If you look for the right products, you're 322 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:15,320 making no compromise in the performance. And yeah, 20 years ago you did but nowadays probably 323 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,960 in most areas you'll find an actual alternative which is as good as or maybe even better than 324 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,720 what's available in the chemical version. And Stuart, where can we buy Himea? At Himea.com. 325 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:32,120 Nice and easy. Stuart, it's been an absolute pleasure. Founder of Himea, the sunscreen, 326 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:35,880 leaving the ocean as we found it. Thank you so much for your time to date and for joining 327 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,200 me on our Clean Sailors podcast. Thank you very much for all the work you're doing and 328 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:48,200 helping to keep the oceans clean as well. 329 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,680 In the meantime, thank you for listening and see you for the next episode.