1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:21,440 Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. Let's talk about sea, marine, sailing and 2 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,520 keep it clean. I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with 3 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,640 a passion for the health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with experts, innovators 4 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:36,240 and activists, all working towards improving the health of our seas, we're showcasing the 5 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:43,520 people and projects, changing the way things are done. So in 2023 with the Ocean Conservation 6 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,600 Trust and Savi Navi, we launched a global campaign called Protect Our Beds to help stop 7 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:53,240 vital seagrass being destroyed. And we're excited today to be joined by various members 8 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,880 of the project. Mark Parry from the Ocean Conservation Trust, David Cusworth from Savi 9 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,120 Navi and also Fikis Boone from Farmerth Harbour who played an instrumental part in working 10 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,840 with AMS moorings and protecting seagrass. Hello all, thank you for joining me. Hello. 11 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,040 Good morning Holly, it's nice to be here. Good morning, good to see you all. So let's 12 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:18,880 talk about seagrass. Mark, just explain your background and why seagrass is important. 13 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,360 So my name's Mark Parry, I work for the Ocean Conservation Trust and I am the head of Ocean 14 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,960 Habitat Restoration. And I think that role exists because many of our coastal habitats 15 00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:37,280 are sadly under pressure and need to recover. So the Ocean Conservation Trust has dedicated 16 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:44,680 much of its funds and its time to understanding why these habitats are declining and under 17 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:51,360 pressure and try to create concrete sort of actions to be able to set the process in 18 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:57,880 reverse. So for the last 10 years we've had a focus on seagrasses. The primary reason 19 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,920 that we were interested in them is because we also run the country's largest aquarium 20 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:11,960 and we were very interested in the types of fish and the seasonal changes that are seagrass 21 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:18,360 meadows around the UK experienced through seasons because fish are mobile and we get 22 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:23,040 different fish visiting at different times of the year. And what we wanted to understand 23 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:29,080 was why are vital seagrass beds around the UK or what services that they were providing 24 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,040 to coastal communities and certainly as a group of biologists and people that run an 25 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,880 aquarium just sort of interested in the species that we find on them. 26 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:44,920 And what did you find? In a nutshell we found that when the seagrass meadow is healthier 27 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:52,680 so the plants are a higher density and those plants in the meadow are doing really well 28 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:58,840 and they're growing big and strong then they effectively support more biodiversity and more 29 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:06,680 life. So we looked at various different sort of taxa of marine species so things that do move 30 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:12,520 and things that don't move. The general takeaway message was that if we have really healthy seagrass 31 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:18,120 beds we have lots of different diversity on them and if we have non-healthy seagrass beds 32 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:24,520 then we don't have a great deal of life or biodiversity associated with them. It was a 33 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:30,440 three-year heritage lottery funded project and we used what we asked citizens and scientists to 34 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:37,400 get involved in gathering the data so we asked divers, sailors and kayakers to contribute towards 35 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:43,640 all the data collection. Healthy seagrass means more biodiversity and more fish. 36 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,640 And seagrass meadows as we know and this has sort of come to light predominantly in the last couple 37 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,800 of years on a real sort of public scale particularly for the last five years or so 38 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:57,400 and we now understand or more publicly understand that they store about 10% of the ocean's carbon 39 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,960 as well. So whilst we've got obviously the diversity of fish species which obviously supports the 40 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:07,560 global food chain really in our waters they're also quite big protagonists of climate change, right? 41 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:14,120 Yeah that's right and I think from our perspective at the beginning we were very interested in 42 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,640 animals and particularly some of the protected species and rare species that we find on the 43 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:25,800 seagrass meadows and as we travelled through this process and learned more and started working 44 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:32,680 with different partners then this conversation about the other services that seagrass provide 45 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:39,000 did start contributing towards the conversation. So you talk about carbon and there's quite a 46 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:46,120 worldwide interest I think in protecting and restoring seagrass meadows for abatement and 47 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:54,920 sequestration of carbon. So they are quite big carbon sinks. If you think about restoring seagrasses 48 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:01,880 you could take an area of barren sand. There are things living in that sand but not as much as if 49 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:09,640 there's a seagrass meadow there and restoring that seagrass meadow you recover the biodiversity 50 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:16,360 and it also starts then locking away more carbon and that's interesting in the marine environment 51 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:25,800 because once it's stored in the sediments then it's out of the carbon cycle. So in our terrestrial 52 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:33,000 ecosystems then our plants all around us store carbon and that cycles through the year when we 53 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:38,200 look out of the window or walk through the woods in the northern hemisphere in the summer there's 54 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:45,080 lots of leaf matter and that's obviously carbon but during the autumn that falls to the ground 55 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:52,440 that rots and then sort of recycles back into the atmosphere whereas what we refer to as blue carbon 56 00:05:53,000 --> 00:06:00,280 and the habitats that do the heavy lifting in the ocean environment would be mangrove, 57 00:06:00,280 --> 00:06:06,040 salt marshes and our seagrasses. What they do is they take that carbon put it into the sand 58 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:13,720 and there isn't that cycling that seasonal cycling and there isn't sort of rotting or 59 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:19,480 actually in the absence of fire as well it's not easy for this carbon to be mineralised back 60 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:26,040 into the atmosphere. So seagrasses and blue carbon in general is something that is of interest to 61 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:33,320 many around the planet to contribute and it isn't sort of panacea for global warming or 62 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:38,840 carbon sequestration but it's an important thing to add to the mix when we consider all of the other 63 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:47,160 values that seagrass provide worldwide then it is a really, really valuable and important habitat 64 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:52,120 to protect. I think you mentioned obviously the locking in the carbon but just in the current context 65 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:58,520 and I appreciate Vicki very close geographically where we're speaking from and we've seen even 66 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,760 in the last couple of days given the strength of the storms that have been battering our coastline 67 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:08,760 that part of my favourite beach has been washed away as an example and there's the locking 68 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,880 in carbon but there's also the element of locking together the actual seabed right Vicki 69 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,960 tell us a little bit about the actual root structure of the seagrass and how that too 70 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:25,000 helps support coastlines. So the seagrass have rhizomes which cause a horizontal map which is 71 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,320 of very intricate and it holds onto the sand so when they really get these extreme weather events 72 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:34,600 hopefully it will provide a service to us of grabbing hold of that sand and keeping it where 73 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,720 it is rather than allowing it to move around so much as we've seen recently in the north-western 74 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,880 storms we've just had through. I think it's a really important topic and it goes to the same 75 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,840 on land right you get sort of that overland flow extenuated by the fact that we've been taking 76 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,560 down trees and we've been tarmacking gardens and obviously got a lot of car parks and otherwise 77 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:58,280 and actually making sure that obviously we've got that root structure within the shallows in 78 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:03,240 particular which are obviously along coastlines to hold it all together is particularly important 79 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,160 but going back to you Mark obviously we talked about how important seagrasses 80 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,480 but I understand that obviously you know the importance of seagrass in the UK alone we've 81 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:18,840 lost nearly half of our seagrass beds I understand since 1930s mainly due to arguably avoidable 82 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:25,000 human activity. How are we impacting or how is seagrass getting damaged by human interaction? 83 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:31,800 Yes it's interesting that you raised the 1930s because there was a sort of major event 84 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:39,000 and one of the things we've got to consider is there wasn't really the technology to map our coast 85 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:46,040 lines in the 1930s and people weren't able to go scuba diving so they weren't really able to explore 86 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:53,800 this underwater world so there are sort of historical events that show that there was 87 00:08:53,800 --> 00:09:00,600 a large dive back in the 1930s of Zostromarina the predominant species that we have in the UK 88 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:08,520 which is a subtitle species again we weren't able to acoustically map areas or send cameras down or 89 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:14,440 even witness it with our own eyes you've got to realize that the mapping methods are only a recent 90 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:23,000 sort of advent really and we've evidence that we've lost at least 50 percent since the 1940s 91 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:30,520 but there are estimates that habitat suitability for seagrasses is much wider so it's quite 92 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,480 a conservative estimate what's contributed towards it is one there's been a pathogen 93 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:43,640 that's passed through the plant and that spread reasonably quickly through the early 1930s 94 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:50,840 and what has remained a lot of people don't know where it is or its significance some of the 95 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,920 conversations that we've had at the Ocean Conservation Trust are that it's a seaweed and 96 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:02,840 people don't necessarily like green things that live on the bottom of the sea they'd probably 97 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:10,120 prefer to go off the beach swimming in nice sort of sandy white lagoons but I think the point is 98 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:18,600 that people have not necessarily understood what it is not understood its significance and not also 99 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:25,000 understood where it is so if there's for example some activity that's taking place on the coastline 100 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:30,920 and you mentioned this point of sediment stabilization so that's a way that seagrass 101 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:37,080 impacts the community that lives on the coastline it sort of protects them from some of the harmful 102 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:42,520 actions of the waves and those big storm events but we also have an effect on seagrasses as well 103 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:48,280 so some of the activities that take place on the beach so there might be development there might be 104 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:54,680 agriculture and when the rain comes it picks up all of the things that we don't necessarily want 105 00:10:54,680 --> 00:11:01,320 in our coastal environment puts them into the sea and that affects our seagrasses because they are 106 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:08,280 a true plant so just in the way that seagrasses are storing carbon in the sediments they're also 107 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:13,480 storing all of the nasty things as well and it's probably worth mentioning they're also really really 108 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:19,880 good at storing nitrogen from runoff and from agricultural sources as well as some of the 109 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:26,600 nitrogen that we put out through sewer systems so they're really good at cleaning but I think it's a 110 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:34,680 lack of understanding of what takes place really close to these beds has an impact on them that's 111 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:40,200 one of the things that I think this collaborative project is trying to communicate is that we have 112 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:45,640 an influence on our ocean and our ocean has an influence on us. Vicki given you know you're an 113 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:51,480 esteemed environmental manager and conservationist yourself operating in probably the most beautiful 114 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,480 harbour in the world certainly one which is an incredibly dynamic environment right it's the third 115 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:01,240 deepest natural harbour in the world there's a ton of a variety of species from whales and 116 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,960 cetaceans all the way down to those lovely little sea slugs in the marinas and stuff we've got a 117 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,280 very very dynamic environment but naturally as a harbour and a support there is the interaction 118 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:16,760 of the environment with human activity how have you seen in such a context seagrass getting 119 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:22,360 damaged by recreational activity in particular? Yeah so it's a hard truth isn't it so we live 120 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,200 in a lovely area and we all want to get out on the water and enjoy it but some of the 121 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:32,440 activities that we do have do have a physical impact on seagrass and other seabed habitats so 122 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,800 we've seen when people have anchored on the seagrass beds visible seagrass thrones on the 123 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,720 surface and in fact whole plants that have been sort of ripped up by the action of the anchor 124 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,920 going through that bed so as you can imagine you know it goes in and sort of disturbs the root 125 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,280 structure of that seagrass and also sort of you know localised moorings they do have a localised 126 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:57,240 impact on the seagrass bed as well because we use a granite block and a piece of heavy chain 127 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,560 before the riser chain and that heavy chain moves around with the wind in the tide and it produces 128 00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:05,800 a sort of scour patch because the heavy chain is constantly moving and doesn't allow the seagrass 129 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,440 to grow underneath it so those physical impacts are there as well as the impacts that Mark mentioned 130 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,400 as well with the poor water quality etc seagrass needs to be photosynthised and when you get lots 131 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:20,520 of particles in the water it struggles to do so we've got a bed particularly in Falmouth that is 132 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:25,480 thought to be light limited and that's why it grows so tall and we're just learning so much more 133 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,800 about this habitat and the impacts that we have are having on it and it's sort of you know been a 134 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,280 fascinating journey to sort of learn about what we can hopefully do to help it as well. 135 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,840 I think it's a really poignant image because Mark you started out by saying that you know we haven't 136 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,760 necessarily known what's under the water and I appreciate that actively you know you'll always 137 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,360 see people on the beach thinking oh it's dirty you know got to clean all the sound off and don't touch 138 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:51,480 the seaweed and in some ways we're returning to that appreciation of nature in the round but 139 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,600 there's a very poignant image where particularly when you're on a boat you don't necessarily engage 140 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:01,640 with what's under the water at all because you're on a boat and we are as sailors for example I'm 141 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,880 kind of appreciative of the water and passionate about it but we haven't had that visibility of 142 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,040 what's underneath it other than what you might see on charts if you're interested or you need it 143 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,920 obviously for safety or navigational purposes but there's some really incredible imagery which we'll 144 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,800 share with this podcast of what you've explained Vicki is having sort of where a boat has been 145 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:25,240 anchored or a mooring block has been laid and because of the rise and fall of the tide the chain 146 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,560 will at some point be touching the bed so there's these huge I mean they're just always perfect 147 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:35,800 circles where the seagrass has been just scraped away effectively it really is quite something to see 148 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:41,240 I want to switch to our project then and why it's been so important and why we started a project and 149 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:46,680 how we went about letting boaters and water users sort of know where seagrass and sensitive beds are 150 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:53,480 David why should we and have we made this information about seabed locations digital? 151 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,320 Well I bother it's a great question and I think going back to Mark's point from earlier on I would 152 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,720 fit squarely into the group of people that don't know what's on the bottom of the water I've been 153 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:08,040 boating for 30 years I heard about seagrass for the first time probably two years ago I'm ashamed 154 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:13,000 to say but it was through this project of working with Mark and Andy and OCT and New Holland Clean 155 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,760 Sailors and all the other great partners that we've got yeah I didn't understand seagrass it's like 156 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:23,560 seaweed I thought it's the thing that you wade through that and knows you because you want that 157 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,760 lovely sand between your toes so I kind of think that if I'm a small representation of the boating 158 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,560 community I don't know what's happening when I anchor I don't know what's at the bottom if you 159 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:38,760 look at a traditional chart a paper chart you'll see the seabed type it'll tell you if it's rock if 160 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:43,720 it's mud if it's sand if it's silt and it'll tell you where there are good places to anchor and a 161 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,760 great example is Stubborn Bay you know there's a lot of activity there and around Pema Sound as well 162 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,640 you've got numerous anchorages but on a paper chart it didn't tell you anything else the beauty of 163 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:58,440 digital is we can update it really quickly as we find out more about the environment if you find 164 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,960 out more about sensitive seabeds we can update the chart virtually in real time which with 165 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:09,080 some of the seabrass beds around around England we did really really quickly we got the data from 166 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:14,680 Andy at OCT and we got it into the app and we got it in front of boaters probably within a couple 167 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:19,960 of weeks of getting the data so it can be that quicker turnaround there's amazing data out there 168 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:25,320 there's lots of amazing scientists out there who collect and map but if you're not telling boaters 169 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,280 if you're not telling the people using the water about it you're only kind of solving I would say 170 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,160 not even half of the problem because as quickly as you find something it can get stowed it can get 171 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:40,520 wrecked somebody can anchor on it and it'll destroy all the good work which takes years you know seagrass 172 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:46,040 bed doesn't pop up overnight but it can be destroyed overnight so telling people about it letting them 173 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:52,040 know where it is and giving them the information to make a difference and a better decision I think 174 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:58,360 is key we can't tell boaters what to do it's not compulsory there are voluntary no anchor areas but 175 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:04,680 not compulsory ones so we can't tell people what to do but we can give them better options I think 176 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,760 I really enjoyed your and thank you for being so honest your example of you know you've been 177 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,880 boating around the world so I appreciate you've got extensive experience in it how has that now 178 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:20,360 changed your perspective say you're out with your family obviously using say Savinavi now you understand 179 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:25,640 perhaps a bit more about the value of seagrasses how does that change your perception of using your 180 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:31,000 boat and anchoring in the water it makes a decision making really easy and it's very convenient I can 181 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:37,800 see where the seagrass is I can see that if I move 100 yards further down the coastline I can anchor 182 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:43,160 I can get the same view I'm in the same bay I can have exactly the same experience but I'm not hurting 183 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:49,080 the environment so I can make a really easy decision it doesn't affect me in any way it doesn't affect 184 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:54,120 my experience but I don't have an impact on the environment negatively and I think that's been 185 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,880 sort of the tension the natural tension you're right we don't need to tell people what to do 186 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:03,080 we're not a legislative body project organization it's important that obviously we inspire people 187 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,480 and educate them and that's what each of you in your respective roles is responsible for doing 188 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:13,080 particularly on a project like this the really sort of person point is is that once we start to 189 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:18,040 understand something better and the value of it naturally we're then more akin to protect it and 190 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:23,480 conserve it so just by highlighting hey there's a really important global species under your boat 191 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,040 right now do you want to drop your anchor here question mark it's almost like what's inferred 192 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:33,560 by it it's like hey you know and appreciating I want to be really clear here under no means do we 193 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:39,880 advocate in a safety situation not anchoring where is imperative to the point is as you said David 194 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:45,720 is that seagrasses grow in the shallows and therefore are often the most beautiful places 195 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,680 along a coastline often very sheltered often very beautiful so helping to display where they are I 196 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,160 think is obviously quite useful and important in that inspirational education process I think the 197 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,800 point is that the conservation community and the sailing community are not exclusive to each other 198 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:05,560 the point that David makes is that what this project allows is just people to understand and 199 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:10,600 make their own choices and many of the conversations that we've had with the boating community 200 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:16,600 is they want to understand where habitats are they want to lessen their impact they want to 201 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:22,280 and I think David puts it really well that it just allows people to make decisions and as you say 202 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:27,240 Holly we're not telling people what to do we're just giving them the information to make those choices 203 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,960 boaters love the environment they're in you know we go out onto the water because we want to be in 204 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,600 a beautiful environment we tend to be more aware of what's going on around us we have things like 205 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,800 hands and foul now and things like that fall off your boat and go over the side and so I think 206 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:46,280 people want this information and people will act on it because it's up close and personal to us we 207 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:51,880 can't see the seabed but we know how important the ocean overall is we know what an important job it 208 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:56,760 does in so many ways and we want to be in a nice environment ourselves so I think right 209 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:02,920 Mark that the two are not each exclusive they want to work together and the more information we give 210 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,720 boaters they will make better decisions we will make better decisions but I think you absolutely 211 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,440 right it's a bit like you know there have been other groups of water users let's say who perhaps 212 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:18,200 more historically have been a lot more conservation minded not least because they've been in the water 213 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:23,720 surfing most of the time swallowing it getting sick by the water quality so I think because 214 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:30,680 naturally while sailing is a very old sport having that better connection mindset with the water I 215 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,320 think is definitely increasing let's say and I think this project really obviously helps promulgate 216 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:41,720 that I want to chat also about the alternatives because I appreciate two parties Mark and Vicky 217 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:46,920 in particular have come together a couple of times on AMS moorings and as an alternative to 218 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:52,040 anchoring in some of these sensitive seabed areas Mark what is an AMS mooring? 219 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:59,640 An AMS mooring so AMS stands for Advanced Mooring System we sat down several years ago with the 220 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:06,760 RYA and started discussing some of the concerns from the boating community about the terminology 221 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:15,800 of eco moorings they sounded more expensive and lesser quality to many people so we collectively 222 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:22,600 came up with the expression the advanced mooring system that means that in some circumstances 223 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:30,840 it is slightly more expensive but it's advanced in the sense that it is caring for the environment 224 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:37,480 and lessening the impact as you say Hollywood regards to some of the imagery that you're going 225 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:46,920 to share so there are numerous sort of options available on the market I think from the US 226 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:54,120 and Australia they are a little bit more sophisticated in their their approach to the use of AMS 227 00:21:54,760 --> 00:22:02,280 or advanced mooring systems and certainly in some marinas and on the east coast of the states I 228 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:09,240 believe they're required legally but the consideration that we have in the UK is that we have quite 229 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:16,200 big tidal variances and if we've got quite big tidal variances for example down in the southwest 230 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:23,560 of the UK then some of the solutions that have been offered from US markets or Australian markets 231 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:30,840 are not suitable there's been numerous mooring service providers that have worked with ourselves 232 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:40,680 and Vicky, Falmouth, Farber to try and work out how best to provide a one solid engineering solution 233 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:48,600 that people can feel confident and that doesn't do damage to the vessel and also provide a ecological 234 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:54,520 consideration so that's what an AMS is and effectively we're saying just for complete clarity 235 00:22:54,520 --> 00:23:00,200 for some of our audience instead of obviously anchoring necessarily or even a say a traditional 236 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,000 mooring block where we get those scour patches that Vicky talked about particularly where you've 237 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,440 got a tidal height such as parts of the UK and Canada also as Mark has pointed out particularly 238 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,600 for places that Vicky manages such as the third deepest natural harbour in the world you need a 239 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,720 lot of chain so that plus the tidal height means that you could potentially have a lot of excess 240 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,760 chain dragging obviously around the seabed and these AMS are really designed to help almost 241 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:31,640 that chain levitate in the water column so as to help prevent that scour on the seabed so they can 242 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:37,480 either be used as an alternative to a mooring or they could be put in place where people traditionally 243 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:42,360 would anchor with the view that you're only impacting the seagrass there as big as the sort 244 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:47,880 of block that's holding the mooring to the seabed rather than the block plus a big circumference 245 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:55,000 around it of chain scour Vicky you've tried this in foulmouth how did it go and ultimately can 246 00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:01,720 seagrass regenerate? Yes it can regenerate and our trial went well but we still have 247 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:07,160 questions around it so in 2021 we removed 11 swing moorings because we started to understand the 248 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:13,160 impact that they were having on a local seagrass bed to us in flushing so it was decided that we 249 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,960 could remove those moorings and we did and we're very lucky to work with sea search divers and 250 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:23,560 University of Exeter to monitor the scour patches that were left behind and over three years they 251 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:28,360 appeared to have completely regenerated so that's great and we haven't done any active regeneration 252 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,600 or anything like that we've just removed that pressure remove that impact and just watch the 253 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:39,240 seagrass come back which is brilliant to see we've also marked that sort of small regeneration area 254 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:44,200 with two advanced mooring systems which has been in place since we removed the other moorings and 255 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,160 we've managed to see that they are also being really effective seagrasses growing right up to the 256 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:55,000 block so it's great to see that as well that those are working and we also trialled we worked with a 257 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,520 naval architecture company called Mooreck and we trialled a advanced mooring system suitable to hold 258 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,960 a boat based on the design that Mark developed and that worked and it held the boat in place for 259 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,520 over four months in various weathers we did it over summer and it did work but we've still got 260 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,000 remaining questions around the floats next to the surface and things like that which we need to 261 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,240 square away but we're hoping to do a little bit more work on that this year to try and get more 262 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:24,840 answers and work to try and you know move more of our moorings over to advanced mooring systems. 263 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,800 That's really cool to understand that seagrass can regenerate and it's a very positive story 264 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,840 because I appreciate you know a lot of the narrative around seagrass beds and sense of seabeds is 265 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,240 that things are being lost and it's a slightly you know chaotic and somewhat dystopian world out 266 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,480 there and that's not to detract from the fact that you know it's an important issue we are having an 267 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:49,160 impact but knowing if we can change our sort of methodology around how we use a seabed particularly 268 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,840 for recreational activity it's really cool to hear that actually dare I say in as little as three years 269 00:25:54,840 --> 00:26:00,040 for such a complex species in my view Mark might tell me differently then it can regenerate and 270 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:05,160 then actually that it can fill in its own gaps. I appreciate we're not necessarily going to be able 271 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:11,720 to stop people from anchoring in seagrass all over the world. Mark what's your hope of boaters of 272 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:17,080 water users and of the project in general around sort of inspiring educating on sort of sensitive 273 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:23,800 seabeds? My hope would be that I think as David said that people make decisions to just avoid 274 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:31,800 that impact. Seagrasses are in some ways quite resilient they will recover and I think Vicki's 275 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:38,360 project in Falmouth has demonstrated that and some of the work that we've also done they do need to 276 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:47,800 have space to recover we do need to provide space for nature and certainly where there is a existing 277 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:55,480 seagrass meadow then over time that health can increase. I'm going back to some of the early 278 00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:03,880 studies that started our journey in seagrasses is if nature is provided the space to recover 279 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:10,280 and it recovers well then we see the return of those values those ecosystem service values 280 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:18,920 and with multiple pressures from water quality to unsustainable sort of fishing practices to 281 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:27,400 recreational impacts if we can work together with all of the stakeholders and all of the people that 282 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:34,200 are using and enjoying this space to provide options for them to continue to use this space 283 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:41,560 but in a less impactful way then that provides the space that we need for these habitats to thrive 284 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,800 and for our coastal environments to thrive and lots of our marine species so that would be my 285 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:54,520 hope just provide space for nature. Provide space for nature well said Mark. I think also it's a 286 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,680 reminder that you know we've got a very beautiful relationship with nature right and it's not to 287 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,600 say that we should engage less with it or spend less time in it because of the impact that we're 288 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,560 having but rather you know whether it is the advanced mooring system model or whether it's 289 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,600 you know something that we haven't yet discovered or invented there are better ways of doing things 290 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:18,120 we can make that relationship exist and if not expand but as long as we're doing it within the 291 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:22,760 parameters of ensuring that nature is somewhat protected. Vicki same question to you you're 292 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:28,200 coming at it from a slightly different angle what's your hope of boaters water users around 293 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,280 understanding and engaging with the natural environment let's say? I think my hope is just 294 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:38,280 you know people understand and become more aware of where these sensitive habitats are 295 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:43,240 and why they're so important I would hope that they would make decisions based upon that like 296 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:49,240 David was explaining earlier if they can anchor elsewhere great let's do that if they can't then 297 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:55,720 there's also best practice that they can employ to reduce that impact and or you know pick up a 298 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:01,400 mooring or whatever but I think the more information you give people then they become more aware and 299 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,520 they can make positive decisions which is great and hopefully we'll get to a stage as a harbor where 300 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:13,080 we're providing facilities that allow us to do what we love whilst not impacting on the environment 301 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:19,240 or minimizing it to a very small impact. It's an exciting and intense space isn't it the human 302 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,880 recreational activity but also business and commercial activity alongside you know incredibly 303 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:29,000 beautiful natural environment. David in terms of obviously the power of technology is unparalleled 304 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:37,320 and actually being able to serve a user crudely such as myself information accurate up-to-date 305 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:43,480 timely information when I need it the most is incredibly potent and we see that in a variety 306 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:48,840 of different apps and tools that we all use on a daily basis. There's something obviously that sets 307 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,800 the ability of savvy apart from perhaps our traditional mapping and I've grown up with two 308 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,680 generations of very traditional sailors and my grandfather and my father who will always use 309 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,840 paper charts alongside the digital ones just in case and there's actually some sort of 310 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:09,000 prudence in that but there are integral limitations of using paper charting in that you know traditionally 311 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:14,360 they do focus on safety and navigation only and whilst that's incredibly important we then miss 312 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:19,400 the color that you can't dive into the complexity of an environment on paper on a two-dimensional 313 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:26,120 you know asset. How have you found this journey with Savvy Navi in inspiring and educating boaters 314 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,600 like how has that shaped your thinking as a team and what are your hopes of the project going forward? 315 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,920 Yeah it's a brilliant interesting question and I'm somewhat in the camp of your prior generations 316 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,320 grandfather and father I think Holly and that I learned on paper charts I learned to navigate 317 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,240 traditionally and I made lots of mistakes I forgot to add leeway I forgot to add inside 318 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,280 a drift when plotting routes my maths was out I didn't always get to where I wanted to be 319 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:55,800 at the time I wanted to be there and in the same way that I used to drive with an AA road mapping 320 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:01,160 the car without wanting to advertise AA road maps nobody has them anymore you use your phone you take 321 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,160 your phone out you plug your phone into your car and it tells you where there's a traffic jam it 322 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,520 tells you where's a petrol station it tells you where you can go to get snacks or fuel or anything 323 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:16,600 and the same the same should apply to boating and especially with new boaters coming in because 324 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:22,680 we all want to see more people enjoying the water now we're not trying to limit what to use us to 325 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:29,000 protect sea blasts what we're trying to do is get more people onto the water but in a responsible way 326 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:35,160 and new people coming into boating expect a digital solution because it's how they run the rest of 327 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,880 their lives so we kind of we need to serve people what they're looking for and what they want as 328 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:45,560 you said in a time of fashion so you can't zoom in on a paper chart you can't click and interrogate 329 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:51,160 the point of interest on a paper chart but in a digital platform you can you can zoom my team 330 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,480 you can interrogate a point of interest you can see exactly where sea blasts is you can see where 331 00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:02,120 there's an advanced mooring system which we've added to the savvy platform so all of that goes 332 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:07,480 to helping the boat to make a better decision but we can do it in a very fast and real-time way if 333 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:13,000 there's an error in the charts and traditionally with a paper chart I would have to weekly go through 334 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:18,520 any updates that came from the UKHL and then have to annotate my paper charts all the time 335 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:25,560 and we know most boaters don't do that we update the charts constantly so either from UKHO or from 336 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:31,320 data we get from you guys from OCT from clean sailors and from lots of other organizations we 337 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:37,160 can update them in virtually in real time to make sure boaters are fully aware of what's going on 338 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:44,040 around them and that's the direction of travel that people need and want digital to make fast 339 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:49,000 decisions and to stay safer because you can see when the weather's closing in when the tide's 340 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,800 changing but also to make environmental decisions. I think information is incredibly powerful isn't 341 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,840 it and you can pack so much into a digital experience which is obviously why it has been 342 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:04,200 perfect for our project not least because as we know you know paper charts are wonderful and I 343 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:09,800 want to be really clear I do use them a lot to your point David making a hell of a lot of mistakes 344 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,200 along the way which is also part of the learning curve but you are limited I mean they're safety 345 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:19,720 navigational assets only right and actually you know providing too much color or information on that 346 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,360 would just prove them inaccessible and unusable so we have got a really unique opportunity to wrap 347 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,720 so many dimensions of a very unique dynamic environment into one place and ultimately 348 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:35,160 provide information that you wouldn't otherwise be able to get elsewhere such as sensitive seabed 349 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:41,480 data but David what is your hope then for the industry for boaters for water users henceforth? 350 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:48,520 My hope for water users is that they continue to get better information and so one of the things 351 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:55,640 that we work really closely with all of you guys on is finding accurate data sources to make sure 352 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:01,080 data sources are validated and accurate and up-to-date because I think what we can't do is give boaters 353 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:07,000 incorrect data because then they'll start ignoring it so if we're suggesting boaters do something 354 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:13,000 without a valid thought process and reason behind it then you very quickly get to the point where 355 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:18,920 they won't listen to what we're saying so my hope is that more boaters are aware of what's around them 356 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,720 and that we can serve them really super accurate data I think they're the two things it's almost 357 00:34:23,720 --> 00:34:28,680 marrying the two worlds the kind of a science environmental sustainable world with the boating 358 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:34,440 world I think Savins fairly well placed to help bridge those two worlds. If you're interested 359 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,080 in learning more about our protect our beds campaign simply google protect our beds and for 360 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:45,080 more on the wonderful work being done by Vicki at Falmouth harbour head to falmouth harbour.co.uk 361 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,720 Mark, Parry, David Cussler, Vicki Spooner thank you very much for joining me this morning on such 362 00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:58,600 an important topic. You're welcome, it's great to see you all again. You've been listening to the Clean 363 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:03,560 Sailors podcast all relevant links to the projects and people we talk to can be found with the 364 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:09,560 podcast link for all episodes or to get in touch just visit CleanSailors.com we love to hear from 365 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,760 you we believe that great ideas should be shared which is why our podcast is free to appear on 366 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:20,360 so if you've got a project idea or topic you think we should be discussing get in touch 367 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:45,960 in the meantime thank you for listening and see you for the next episode.