Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. Let's talk about sea, marine, sailing and
keep it clean. I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with
a passion for the health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with experts, innovators
and activists, all working towards improving the health of our seas, we're showcasing the
people and projects, changing the way things are done. So in 2023 with the Ocean Conservation
Trust and Savi Navi, we launched a global campaign called Protect Our Beds to help stop
vital seagrass being destroyed. And we're excited today to be joined by various members
of the project. Mark Parry from the Ocean Conservation Trust, David Cusworth from Savi
Navi and also Fikis Boone from Farmerth Harbour who played an instrumental part in working
with AMS moorings and protecting seagrass. Hello all, thank you for joining me. Hello.
Good morning Holly, it's nice to be here. Good morning, good to see you all. So let's
talk about seagrass. Mark, just explain your background and why seagrass is important.
So my name's Mark Parry, I work for the Ocean Conservation Trust and I am the head of Ocean
Habitat Restoration. And I think that role exists because many of our coastal habitats
are sadly under pressure and need to recover. So the Ocean Conservation Trust has dedicated
much of its funds and its time to understanding why these habitats are declining and under
pressure and try to create concrete sort of actions to be able to set the process in
reverse. So for the last 10 years we've had a focus on seagrasses. The primary reason
that we were interested in them is because we also run the country's largest aquarium
and we were very interested in the types of fish and the seasonal changes that are seagrass
meadows around the UK experienced through seasons because fish are mobile and we get
different fish visiting at different times of the year. And what we wanted to understand
was why are vital seagrass beds around the UK or what services that they were providing
to coastal communities and certainly as a group of biologists and people that run an
aquarium just sort of interested in the species that we find on them.
And what did you find? In a nutshell we found that when the seagrass meadow is healthier
so the plants are a higher density and those plants in the meadow are doing really well
and they're growing big and strong then they effectively support more biodiversity and more
life. So we looked at various different sort of taxa of marine species so things that do move
and things that don't move. The general takeaway message was that if we have really healthy seagrass
beds we have lots of different diversity on them and if we have non-healthy seagrass beds
then we don't have a great deal of life or biodiversity associated with them. It was a
three-year heritage lottery funded project and we used what we asked citizens and scientists to
get involved in gathering the data so we asked divers, sailors and kayakers to contribute towards
all the data collection. Healthy seagrass means more biodiversity and more fish.
And seagrass meadows as we know and this has sort of come to light predominantly in the last couple
of years on a real sort of public scale particularly for the last five years or so
and we now understand or more publicly understand that they store about 10% of the ocean's carbon
as well. So whilst we've got obviously the diversity of fish species which obviously supports the
global food chain really in our waters they're also quite big protagonists of climate change, right?
Yeah that's right and I think from our perspective at the beginning we were very interested in
animals and particularly some of the protected species and rare species that we find on the
seagrass meadows and as we travelled through this process and learned more and started working
with different partners then this conversation about the other services that seagrass provide
did start contributing towards the conversation. So you talk about carbon and there's quite a
worldwide interest I think in protecting and restoring seagrass meadows for abatement and
sequestration of carbon. So they are quite big carbon sinks. If you think about restoring seagrasses
you could take an area of barren sand. There are things living in that sand but not as much as if
there's a seagrass meadow there and restoring that seagrass meadow you recover the biodiversity
and it also starts then locking away more carbon and that's interesting in the marine environment
because once it's stored in the sediments then it's out of the carbon cycle. So in our terrestrial
ecosystems then our plants all around us store carbon and that cycles through the year when we
look out of the window or walk through the woods in the northern hemisphere in the summer there's
lots of leaf matter and that's obviously carbon but during the autumn that falls to the ground
that rots and then sort of recycles back into the atmosphere whereas what we refer to as blue carbon
and the habitats that do the heavy lifting in the ocean environment would be mangrove,
salt marshes and our seagrasses. What they do is they take that carbon put it into the sand
and there isn't that cycling that seasonal cycling and there isn't sort of rotting or
actually in the absence of fire as well it's not easy for this carbon to be mineralised back
into the atmosphere. So seagrasses and blue carbon in general is something that is of interest to
many around the planet to contribute and it isn't sort of panacea for global warming or
carbon sequestration but it's an important thing to add to the mix when we consider all of the other
values that seagrass provide worldwide then it is a really, really valuable and important habitat
to protect. I think you mentioned obviously the locking in the carbon but just in the current context
and I appreciate Vicki very close geographically where we're speaking from and we've seen even
in the last couple of days given the strength of the storms that have been battering our coastline
that part of my favourite beach has been washed away as an example and there's the locking
in carbon but there's also the element of locking together the actual seabed right Vicki
tell us a little bit about the actual root structure of the seagrass and how that too
helps support coastlines. So the seagrass have rhizomes which cause a horizontal map which is
of very intricate and it holds onto the sand so when they really get these extreme weather events
hopefully it will provide a service to us of grabbing hold of that sand and keeping it where
it is rather than allowing it to move around so much as we've seen recently in the north-western
storms we've just had through. I think it's a really important topic and it goes to the same
on land right you get sort of that overland flow extenuated by the fact that we've been taking
down trees and we've been tarmacking gardens and obviously got a lot of car parks and otherwise
and actually making sure that obviously we've got that root structure within the shallows in
particular which are obviously along coastlines to hold it all together is particularly important
but going back to you Mark obviously we talked about how important seagrasses
but I understand that obviously you know the importance of seagrass in the UK alone we've
lost nearly half of our seagrass beds I understand since 1930s mainly due to arguably avoidable
human activity. How are we impacting or how is seagrass getting damaged by human interaction?
Yes it's interesting that you raised the 1930s because there was a sort of major event
and one of the things we've got to consider is there wasn't really the technology to map our coast
lines in the 1930s and people weren't able to go scuba diving so they weren't really able to explore
this underwater world so there are sort of historical events that show that there was
a large dive back in the 1930s of Zostromarina the predominant species that we have in the UK
which is a subtitle species again we weren't able to acoustically map areas or send cameras down or
even witness it with our own eyes you've got to realize that the mapping methods are only a recent
sort of advent really and we've evidence that we've lost at least 50 percent since the 1940s
but there are estimates that habitat suitability for seagrasses is much wider so it's quite
a conservative estimate what's contributed towards it is one there's been a pathogen
that's passed through the plant and that spread reasonably quickly through the early 1930s
and what has remained a lot of people don't know where it is or its significance some of the
conversations that we've had at the Ocean Conservation Trust are that it's a seaweed and
people don't necessarily like green things that live on the bottom of the sea they'd probably
prefer to go off the beach swimming in nice sort of sandy white lagoons but I think the point is
that people have not necessarily understood what it is not understood its significance and not also
understood where it is so if there's for example some activity that's taking place on the coastline
and you mentioned this point of sediment stabilization so that's a way that seagrass
impacts the community that lives on the coastline it sort of protects them from some of the harmful
actions of the waves and those big storm events but we also have an effect on seagrasses as well
so some of the activities that take place on the beach so there might be development there might be
agriculture and when the rain comes it picks up all of the things that we don't necessarily want
in our coastal environment puts them into the sea and that affects our seagrasses because they are
a true plant so just in the way that seagrasses are storing carbon in the sediments they're also
storing all of the nasty things as well and it's probably worth mentioning they're also really really
good at storing nitrogen from runoff and from agricultural sources as well as some of the
nitrogen that we put out through sewer systems so they're really good at cleaning but I think it's a
lack of understanding of what takes place really close to these beds has an impact on them that's
one of the things that I think this collaborative project is trying to communicate is that we have
an influence on our ocean and our ocean has an influence on us. Vicki given you know you're an
esteemed environmental manager and conservationist yourself operating in probably the most beautiful
harbour in the world certainly one which is an incredibly dynamic environment right it's the third
deepest natural harbour in the world there's a ton of a variety of species from whales and
cetaceans all the way down to those lovely little sea slugs in the marinas and stuff we've got a
very very dynamic environment but naturally as a harbour and a support there is the interaction
of the environment with human activity how have you seen in such a context seagrass getting
damaged by recreational activity in particular? Yeah so it's a hard truth isn't it so we live
in a lovely area and we all want to get out on the water and enjoy it but some of the
activities that we do have do have a physical impact on seagrass and other seabed habitats so
we've seen when people have anchored on the seagrass beds visible seagrass thrones on the
surface and in fact whole plants that have been sort of ripped up by the action of the anchor
going through that bed so as you can imagine you know it goes in and sort of disturbs the root
structure of that seagrass and also sort of you know localised moorings they do have a localised
impact on the seagrass bed as well because we use a granite block and a piece of heavy chain
before the riser chain and that heavy chain moves around with the wind in the tide and it produces
a sort of scour patch because the heavy chain is constantly moving and doesn't allow the seagrass
to grow underneath it so those physical impacts are there as well as the impacts that Mark mentioned
as well with the poor water quality etc seagrass needs to be photosynthised and when you get lots
of particles in the water it struggles to do so we've got a bed particularly in Falmouth that is
thought to be light limited and that's why it grows so tall and we're just learning so much more
about this habitat and the impacts that we have are having on it and it's sort of you know been a
fascinating journey to sort of learn about what we can hopefully do to help it as well.
I think it's a really poignant image because Mark you started out by saying that you know we haven't
necessarily known what's under the water and I appreciate that actively you know you'll always
see people on the beach thinking oh it's dirty you know got to clean all the sound off and don't touch
the seaweed and in some ways we're returning to that appreciation of nature in the round but
there's a very poignant image where particularly when you're on a boat you don't necessarily engage
with what's under the water at all because you're on a boat and we are as sailors for example I'm
kind of appreciative of the water and passionate about it but we haven't had that visibility of
what's underneath it other than what you might see on charts if you're interested or you need it
obviously for safety or navigational purposes but there's some really incredible imagery which we'll
share with this podcast of what you've explained Vicki is having sort of where a boat has been
anchored or a mooring block has been laid and because of the rise and fall of the tide the chain
will at some point be touching the bed so there's these huge I mean they're just always perfect
circles where the seagrass has been just scraped away effectively it really is quite something to see
I want to switch to our project then and why it's been so important and why we started a project and
how we went about letting boaters and water users sort of know where seagrass and sensitive beds are
David why should we and have we made this information about seabed locations digital?
Well I bother it's a great question and I think going back to Mark's point from earlier on I would
fit squarely into the group of people that don't know what's on the bottom of the water I've been
boating for 30 years I heard about seagrass for the first time probably two years ago I'm ashamed
to say but it was through this project of working with Mark and Andy and OCT and New Holland Clean
Sailors and all the other great partners that we've got yeah I didn't understand seagrass it's like
seaweed I thought it's the thing that you wade through that and knows you because you want that
lovely sand between your toes so I kind of think that if I'm a small representation of the boating
community I don't know what's happening when I anchor I don't know what's at the bottom if you
look at a traditional chart a paper chart you'll see the seabed type it'll tell you if it's rock if
it's mud if it's sand if it's silt and it'll tell you where there are good places to anchor and a
great example is Stubborn Bay you know there's a lot of activity there and around Pema Sound as well
you've got numerous anchorages but on a paper chart it didn't tell you anything else the beauty of
digital is we can update it really quickly as we find out more about the environment if you find
out more about sensitive seabeds we can update the chart virtually in real time which with
some of the seabrass beds around around England we did really really quickly we got the data from
Andy at OCT and we got it into the app and we got it in front of boaters probably within a couple
of weeks of getting the data so it can be that quicker turnaround there's amazing data out there
there's lots of amazing scientists out there who collect and map but if you're not telling boaters
if you're not telling the people using the water about it you're only kind of solving I would say
not even half of the problem because as quickly as you find something it can get stowed it can get
wrecked somebody can anchor on it and it'll destroy all the good work which takes years you know seagrass
bed doesn't pop up overnight but it can be destroyed overnight so telling people about it letting them
know where it is and giving them the information to make a difference and a better decision I think
is key we can't tell boaters what to do it's not compulsory there are voluntary no anchor areas but
not compulsory ones so we can't tell people what to do but we can give them better options I think
I really enjoyed your and thank you for being so honest your example of you know you've been
boating around the world so I appreciate you've got extensive experience in it how has that now
changed your perspective say you're out with your family obviously using say Savinavi now you understand
perhaps a bit more about the value of seagrasses how does that change your perception of using your
boat and anchoring in the water it makes a decision making really easy and it's very convenient I can
see where the seagrass is I can see that if I move 100 yards further down the coastline I can anchor
I can get the same view I'm in the same bay I can have exactly the same experience but I'm not hurting
the environment so I can make a really easy decision it doesn't affect me in any way it doesn't affect
my experience but I don't have an impact on the environment negatively and I think that's been
sort of the tension the natural tension you're right we don't need to tell people what to do
we're not a legislative body project organization it's important that obviously we inspire people
and educate them and that's what each of you in your respective roles is responsible for doing
particularly on a project like this the really sort of person point is is that once we start to
understand something better and the value of it naturally we're then more akin to protect it and
conserve it so just by highlighting hey there's a really important global species under your boat
right now do you want to drop your anchor here question mark it's almost like what's inferred
by it it's like hey you know and appreciating I want to be really clear here under no means do we
advocate in a safety situation not anchoring where is imperative to the point is as you said David
is that seagrasses grow in the shallows and therefore are often the most beautiful places
along a coastline often very sheltered often very beautiful so helping to display where they are I
think is obviously quite useful and important in that inspirational education process I think the
point is that the conservation community and the sailing community are not exclusive to each other
the point that David makes is that what this project allows is just people to understand and
make their own choices and many of the conversations that we've had with the boating community
is they want to understand where habitats are they want to lessen their impact they want to
and I think David puts it really well that it just allows people to make decisions and as you say
Holly we're not telling people what to do we're just giving them the information to make those choices
boaters love the environment they're in you know we go out onto the water because we want to be in
a beautiful environment we tend to be more aware of what's going on around us we have things like
hands and foul now and things like that fall off your boat and go over the side and so I think
people want this information and people will act on it because it's up close and personal to us we
can't see the seabed but we know how important the ocean overall is we know what an important job it
does in so many ways and we want to be in a nice environment ourselves so I think right
Mark that the two are not each exclusive they want to work together and the more information we give
boaters they will make better decisions we will make better decisions but I think you absolutely
right it's a bit like you know there have been other groups of water users let's say who perhaps
more historically have been a lot more conservation minded not least because they've been in the water
surfing most of the time swallowing it getting sick by the water quality so I think because
naturally while sailing is a very old sport having that better connection mindset with the water I
think is definitely increasing let's say and I think this project really obviously helps promulgate
that I want to chat also about the alternatives because I appreciate two parties Mark and Vicky
in particular have come together a couple of times on AMS moorings and as an alternative to
anchoring in some of these sensitive seabed areas Mark what is an AMS mooring?
An AMS mooring so AMS stands for Advanced Mooring System we sat down several years ago with the
RYA and started discussing some of the concerns from the boating community about the terminology
of eco moorings they sounded more expensive and lesser quality to many people so we collectively
came up with the expression the advanced mooring system that means that in some circumstances
it is slightly more expensive but it's advanced in the sense that it is caring for the environment
and lessening the impact as you say Hollywood regards to some of the imagery that you're going
to share so there are numerous sort of options available on the market I think from the US
and Australia they are a little bit more sophisticated in their their approach to the use of AMS
or advanced mooring systems and certainly in some marinas and on the east coast of the states I
believe they're required legally but the consideration that we have in the UK is that we have quite
big tidal variances and if we've got quite big tidal variances for example down in the southwest
of the UK then some of the solutions that have been offered from US markets or Australian markets
are not suitable there's been numerous mooring service providers that have worked with ourselves
and Vicky, Falmouth, Farber to try and work out how best to provide a one solid engineering solution
that people can feel confident and that doesn't do damage to the vessel and also provide a ecological
consideration so that's what an AMS is and effectively we're saying just for complete clarity
for some of our audience instead of obviously anchoring necessarily or even a say a traditional
mooring block where we get those scour patches that Vicky talked about particularly where you've
got a tidal height such as parts of the UK and Canada also as Mark has pointed out particularly
for places that Vicky manages such as the third deepest natural harbour in the world you need a
lot of chain so that plus the tidal height means that you could potentially have a lot of excess
chain dragging obviously around the seabed and these AMS are really designed to help almost
that chain levitate in the water column so as to help prevent that scour on the seabed so they can
either be used as an alternative to a mooring or they could be put in place where people traditionally
would anchor with the view that you're only impacting the seagrass there as big as the sort
of block that's holding the mooring to the seabed rather than the block plus a big circumference
around it of chain scour Vicky you've tried this in foulmouth how did it go and ultimately can
seagrass regenerate? Yes it can regenerate and our trial went well but we still have
questions around it so in 2021 we removed 11 swing moorings because we started to understand the
impact that they were having on a local seagrass bed to us in flushing so it was decided that we
could remove those moorings and we did and we're very lucky to work with sea search divers and
University of Exeter to monitor the scour patches that were left behind and over three years they
appeared to have completely regenerated so that's great and we haven't done any active regeneration
or anything like that we've just removed that pressure remove that impact and just watch the
seagrass come back which is brilliant to see we've also marked that sort of small regeneration area
with two advanced mooring systems which has been in place since we removed the other moorings and
we've managed to see that they are also being really effective seagrasses growing right up to the
block so it's great to see that as well that those are working and we also trialled we worked with a
naval architecture company called Mooreck and we trialled a advanced mooring system suitable to hold
a boat based on the design that Mark developed and that worked and it held the boat in place for
over four months in various weathers we did it over summer and it did work but we've still got
remaining questions around the floats next to the surface and things like that which we need to
square away but we're hoping to do a little bit more work on that this year to try and get more
answers and work to try and you know move more of our moorings over to advanced mooring systems.
That's really cool to understand that seagrass can regenerate and it's a very positive story
because I appreciate you know a lot of the narrative around seagrass beds and sense of seabeds is
that things are being lost and it's a slightly you know chaotic and somewhat dystopian world out
there and that's not to detract from the fact that you know it's an important issue we are having an
impact but knowing if we can change our sort of methodology around how we use a seabed particularly
for recreational activity it's really cool to hear that actually dare I say in as little as three years
for such a complex species in my view Mark might tell me differently then it can regenerate and
then actually that it can fill in its own gaps. I appreciate we're not necessarily going to be able
to stop people from anchoring in seagrass all over the world. Mark what's your hope of boaters of
water users and of the project in general around sort of inspiring educating on sort of sensitive
seabeds? My hope would be that I think as David said that people make decisions to just avoid
that impact. Seagrasses are in some ways quite resilient they will recover and I think Vicki's
project in Falmouth has demonstrated that and some of the work that we've also done they do need to
have space to recover we do need to provide space for nature and certainly where there is a existing
seagrass meadow then over time that health can increase. I'm going back to some of the early
studies that started our journey in seagrasses is if nature is provided the space to recover
and it recovers well then we see the return of those values those ecosystem service values
and with multiple pressures from water quality to unsustainable sort of fishing practices to
recreational impacts if we can work together with all of the stakeholders and all of the people that
are using and enjoying this space to provide options for them to continue to use this space
but in a less impactful way then that provides the space that we need for these habitats to thrive
and for our coastal environments to thrive and lots of our marine species so that would be my
hope just provide space for nature. Provide space for nature well said Mark. I think also it's a
reminder that you know we've got a very beautiful relationship with nature right and it's not to
say that we should engage less with it or spend less time in it because of the impact that we're
having but rather you know whether it is the advanced mooring system model or whether it's
you know something that we haven't yet discovered or invented there are better ways of doing things
we can make that relationship exist and if not expand but as long as we're doing it within the
parameters of ensuring that nature is somewhat protected. Vicki same question to you you're
coming at it from a slightly different angle what's your hope of boaters water users around
understanding and engaging with the natural environment let's say? I think my hope is just
you know people understand and become more aware of where these sensitive habitats are
and why they're so important I would hope that they would make decisions based upon that like
David was explaining earlier if they can anchor elsewhere great let's do that if they can't then
there's also best practice that they can employ to reduce that impact and or you know pick up a
mooring or whatever but I think the more information you give people then they become more aware and
they can make positive decisions which is great and hopefully we'll get to a stage as a harbor where
we're providing facilities that allow us to do what we love whilst not impacting on the environment
or minimizing it to a very small impact. It's an exciting and intense space isn't it the human
recreational activity but also business and commercial activity alongside you know incredibly
beautiful natural environment. David in terms of obviously the power of technology is unparalleled
and actually being able to serve a user crudely such as myself information accurate up-to-date
timely information when I need it the most is incredibly potent and we see that in a variety
of different apps and tools that we all use on a daily basis. There's something obviously that sets
the ability of savvy apart from perhaps our traditional mapping and I've grown up with two
generations of very traditional sailors and my grandfather and my father who will always use
paper charts alongside the digital ones just in case and there's actually some sort of
prudence in that but there are integral limitations of using paper charting in that you know traditionally
they do focus on safety and navigation only and whilst that's incredibly important we then miss
the color that you can't dive into the complexity of an environment on paper on a two-dimensional
you know asset. How have you found this journey with Savvy Navi in inspiring and educating boaters
like how has that shaped your thinking as a team and what are your hopes of the project going forward?
Yeah it's a brilliant interesting question and I'm somewhat in the camp of your prior generations
grandfather and father I think Holly and that I learned on paper charts I learned to navigate
traditionally and I made lots of mistakes I forgot to add leeway I forgot to add inside
a drift when plotting routes my maths was out I didn't always get to where I wanted to be
at the time I wanted to be there and in the same way that I used to drive with an AA road mapping
the car without wanting to advertise AA road maps nobody has them anymore you use your phone you take
your phone out you plug your phone into your car and it tells you where there's a traffic jam it
tells you where's a petrol station it tells you where you can go to get snacks or fuel or anything
and the same the same should apply to boating and especially with new boaters coming in because
we all want to see more people enjoying the water now we're not trying to limit what to use us to
protect sea blasts what we're trying to do is get more people onto the water but in a responsible way
and new people coming into boating expect a digital solution because it's how they run the rest of
their lives so we kind of we need to serve people what they're looking for and what they want as
you said in a time of fashion so you can't zoom in on a paper chart you can't click and interrogate
the point of interest on a paper chart but in a digital platform you can you can zoom my team
you can interrogate a point of interest you can see exactly where sea blasts is you can see where
there's an advanced mooring system which we've added to the savvy platform so all of that goes
to helping the boat to make a better decision but we can do it in a very fast and real-time way if
there's an error in the charts and traditionally with a paper chart I would have to weekly go through
any updates that came from the UKHL and then have to annotate my paper charts all the time
and we know most boaters don't do that we update the charts constantly so either from UKHO or from
data we get from you guys from OCT from clean sailors and from lots of other organizations we
can update them in virtually in real time to make sure boaters are fully aware of what's going on
around them and that's the direction of travel that people need and want digital to make fast
decisions and to stay safer because you can see when the weather's closing in when the tide's
changing but also to make environmental decisions. I think information is incredibly powerful isn't
it and you can pack so much into a digital experience which is obviously why it has been
perfect for our project not least because as we know you know paper charts are wonderful and I
want to be really clear I do use them a lot to your point David making a hell of a lot of mistakes
along the way which is also part of the learning curve but you are limited I mean they're safety
navigational assets only right and actually you know providing too much color or information on that
would just prove them inaccessible and unusable so we have got a really unique opportunity to wrap
so many dimensions of a very unique dynamic environment into one place and ultimately
provide information that you wouldn't otherwise be able to get elsewhere such as sensitive seabed
data but David what is your hope then for the industry for boaters for water users henceforth?
My hope for water users is that they continue to get better information and so one of the things
that we work really closely with all of you guys on is finding accurate data sources to make sure
data sources are validated and accurate and up-to-date because I think what we can't do is give boaters
incorrect data because then they'll start ignoring it so if we're suggesting boaters do something
without a valid thought process and reason behind it then you very quickly get to the point where
they won't listen to what we're saying so my hope is that more boaters are aware of what's around them
and that we can serve them really super accurate data I think they're the two things it's almost
marrying the two worlds the kind of a science environmental sustainable world with the boating
world I think Savins fairly well placed to help bridge those two worlds. If you're interested
in learning more about our protect our beds campaign simply google protect our beds and for
more on the wonderful work being done by Vicki at Falmouth harbour head to falmouth harbour.co.uk
Mark, Parry, David Cussler, Vicki Spooner thank you very much for joining me this morning on such
an important topic. You're welcome, it's great to see you all again. You've been listening to the Clean
Sailors podcast all relevant links to the projects and people we talk to can be found with the
podcast link for all episodes or to get in touch just visit CleanSailors.com we love to hear from
you we believe that great ideas should be shared which is why our podcast is free to appear on
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in the meantime thank you for listening and see you for the next episode.