1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:21,440 Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. Let's talk about sea, marine, sailing and 2 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,440 keep it clean. I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with 3 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,720 a passion for the health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with experts, innovators 4 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,280 and activists, all working towards improving the health of our seas, we're showcasing the 5 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,440 people and projects, changing the way things are done. 6 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:48,560 During the 1950s, glass fiber reinforced polyester, GRP, FRP fiberglass composites displaced wood 7 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,440 as the material choice for boats. As it's easier to manufacture, smoother hydrodynamic 8 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:59,240 surfaces and significantly reduce the maintenance cost of keeping a vessel. Such materials revolutionise 9 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,040 not just the production of vessels, leisure boats in particular, but also the accessibility 10 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:09,600 of boating to a much wider audience. However, the durability of the composite materials 11 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,200 is now becoming an issue, given that many boats are no longer acquired and disposal 12 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:21,800 is not trivial or cheap. Today, I'm joined by two teams changing the way boats are built. 13 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:27,680 Welcome to Alessandro Sagni from NL Composite and Patrick Picchetti from ReCarbon. Hi guys, 14 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,760 thank you for joining me. Hi Holly. 15 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,120 I look forward to hearing about the work that you're doing for the industry. But first, 16 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:39,240 Alessandro, tell us a little bit about NL Composite. What do you do? How big are you? 17 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:44,080 And what do you specialise in? NL Composite is an italian startup, a 18 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:49,160 clean-packed company that operates in the field of recyclable composite materials. 19 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:55,440 We were founded by the end of 2019. Actually, we are five-shot holders that are working 20 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:02,280 within the company and we are trying to revolutionise the way to make composite, to make this industry 21 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,280 more sustainable. In these years, we have in-depth studied the problem and we have developed 22 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,680 some materials that meet this recyclability constraint. 23 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,800 And when you say problem, we're going to come onto that in just a second because it's a 24 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,360 really important part of this conversation. But Patrick, I want to hear about ReCarbon. 25 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:24,080 What do you do and what are your values? Hi everybody. Thank you again, Holly, to host 26 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,000 us. I'm Patrick Picchetti, an aeronautical engineer and I'm actually the project manager 27 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:36,080 of ReCarbon. ReCarbon is an italian innovative startup funded last May 2022. So we are really 28 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:43,920 young, we can say. Our approach is transforming the carbon fibre waste into new valuable intermediate 29 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:49,360 products in different forms, different components like organo sheets or sandwich panels in order 30 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:54,160 to contribute in building a new sustainable and circular economy. That's mainly what we 31 00:02:54,160 --> 00:03:00,840 do. So we use recycled carbon fibre waste. We transform it in new intermediate products 32 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:06,040 in order to fulfil the needs of the market in terms of new components. So we transfer 33 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,480 the waste into valuable components. That's it. You say that's it but it sounds incredibly 34 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,960 complicated. Obviously, merely changing carbon into something else. But I really want to 35 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,000 talk about some of the boat building. How boat building materials have changed over 36 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,960 the years and actually why is it a problem, Alessandro? I would say that building materials 37 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:32,680 did not change much over the last 80 years, since 1940s when the industry switched from 38 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:40,800 wood based vessels to glass fibre based vessels. And this factory is that because glass fibre 39 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:47,240 has incredible properties in terms of strength, stiffness, lightness and it's extremely durable. 40 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:52,640 So it does not need a lot of maintenance but on the other hand this leads to the fact that 41 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:58,360 it cannot be easily disposed once we need to get rid of these materials. Today glass 42 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:04,520 fibre is used also in many other different industrial fields from the automotive to winter 43 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,760 mineblades. So a problem that I would say was born with the boat building is now spread 44 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:15,160 over all the industrial fields and with the same technological issues and the same issues 45 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:20,440 in terms of recyclability and management of the disposed specimens. Do you know anywhere 46 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:27,000 in the world that's actually recycling successfully GRP or FRP? Or is the only solution really 47 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:32,040 now to look at how we're producing new material? Over the years there have been a lot of efforts 48 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:37,720 in trying to find a sustainable solution for recycling glass fibre let's say but none 49 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,960 of them was really successful and this is because the recycling of glass fibre up now 50 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:48,880 is done by using a lot of energy and a lot of effort which means that it's really expensive 51 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:53,400 and you get the product that does not have the mechanical properties that have originated 52 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,880 in glass fibre. So you're spending money to have a worse product and this is not feasible 53 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:04,240 for the industry. So in the end there is not like a circular economy for glass fibre because 54 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,800 it's not economical. When you say obviously you're spending a lot of time and money but 55 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:15,040 also energy, I mean it's a very chemical heavy process to start breaking down GRP, FRP, right? 56 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:20,400 So there's a point where you try and become perhaps sustainable in reusing a product but 57 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,800 ultimately you're incredibly unsustainable by the amount of energy and otherwise you've 58 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,520 got to consume by trying to change that product into something that's again useful like you 59 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:34,360 said. Was this NL Composites main focus was trying to build a composite that could work 60 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,480 function very differently and ultimately be reused again? We see that there is not like 61 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:44,680 a really promising way in finding recyclable, a sustainable way to recycle glass fibre and 62 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:51,080 carbon fibre. We tried to change the paradigm and we changed the materials involved in creating 63 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:56,000 these composite materials. And so as you said before historically composite glass fibre 64 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,240 and composite material in general are based on thermostat raisins and we find a way to 65 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,560 use thermoplastic raisins that have some issues from the manufacturing point of view but if 66 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:13,240 well treated it can allow an easy and a feasible recyclability of the composite material. 67 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,400 So the process of building the composite because it's thermoplastic resin effectively you can 68 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,440 more easily break it down at the end in comparison to GRP FRP. 69 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:27,640 The process is the same but all the kind of material involved in the process. We substitute 70 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:33,080 thermostat raisins with the thermoplastic raisin to allow recyclability and also we implement 71 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:38,240 natural fibres instead of synthetic fibres to be more environmentally friendly. 72 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,760 So you're reducing the content also of kind of man-made synthetic materials and substituting 73 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,600 it with the natural ones. I appreciate that Clean Sailors and NL Composite did launch 74 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:52,400 a recyclable dinghy in the last couple of years. I can say no more on the matter at 75 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,800 this point but I think it was an incredibly revolutionary. I know we've used that word 76 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:01,600 a lot but it really is quite exciting to see how the technologies have shifted so quickly 77 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:08,080 and something that arguably the industry has grappled with for at least a decade now sincerely 78 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,560 around end of life materials. How boat builders such as yourself are actually forwarding the 79 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,240 process and showing what's possible and actually by both of you incredibly small and incredibly 80 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:22,960 new teams. So it's really, really exciting. I appreciate this is a new field in some ways 81 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,640 for recarbon Patrick. I appreciate obviously sustainable engineering is really what your 82 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,720 company is about. Why was this relationship with NL Composite and the marine industry 83 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,680 exciting for recarbon? 84 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:41,440 In recarbon we started producing new intermediate products based on recycled carbon fibre especially 85 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:47,680 and how Alessandro said, the main focus was on the kind of raising. So we produce and 86 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:53,320 we focus on the thermoplastic raising. Our products are mainly based on thermoplastic 87 00:07:53,320 --> 00:08:00,280 raisins so not only to reuse the waste so the recyclable material but also the recyclability 88 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:06,480 of them. So in terms of reuse the end of life it's better of course. We at the time back 89 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:12,080 two years ago we were producing all the organo sheets so the we can say the small thickness. 90 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:17,680 They asked about the possibility, the feasibility of making something thicker in order to reach 91 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:25,640 the correct component for the nautical market for the boats. So we started an internal R&D 92 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:31,800 process and we ended with the beginning of this year with the patent pending technology 93 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,840 for these kind of sandwich panels, all thermoplastics. So they are basically made with thermoplastic 94 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,280 recycled carbon fibre skins and different P and different kind of thermoplastic forms 95 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:50,080 without the using the addition of additives, bonding, etc. So it's 100% thermoplastic and 96 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,720 also it has a better managing of the end of life due to the fact that it doesn't have 97 00:08:54,720 --> 00:09:00,920 any glues, any thermoset glues, anything like this, any additives. So you can also recover 98 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:07,560 the material and recycle in other components or new components, etc. So basically the starting 99 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:15,000 point was a meeting back in 2022. So we were the newborn and when we met but in less than 100 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:21,080 two years we have the product. We already made a demonstrator, a component in their boat 101 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:27,000 they presented last year in the Ecoracer. So we are working together for the new boats, 102 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:33,960 the new yachts, etc. We are now trying to solve, we have to be 100% sustainable or at 103 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:43,080 least we try to reach that kind of sustainability. So when we have a full thermoplastic and sustainable 104 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:49,200 component, now we have to have also the sustainable bonding we can say. So we are trying together 105 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:57,120 to avoid the usage of glues, thermosets, epoxy raisins, etc. in order to compose the component, 106 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:04,000 manufacture the component and also install on the boat without using any kind of no sustainable 107 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:10,960 application. So that's the point we are working together this year, probably all this year 108 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:17,480 for the new boat and we are willing to reach the solution I think within the year. That's 109 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,680 the goal. I mean. 110 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:24,600 An exceptionally exciting design challenge, right? Because I think you said appreciate 111 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:30,600 you've got your thermoplastic process and it'll compensate. You've got the carbon basalt 112 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,000 and the flax is going in to help strengthen it, the reinforcement and then you've got 113 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:40,080 that carbon sort of veil on top to help protect the surface of the whole package if you like. 114 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,520 So the next challenge with UV carbon is obviously to make that, like you mentioned sort of thicker, 115 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,840 how do you make it, you know, can apply it to different kind of vessels as you develop 116 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:53,640 more boats for different contexts. But excitingly, I guess making sure that you can do it arguably 117 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:59,600 at some sort of scale and not compromise obviously the quality and the performance of the boats 118 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,360 that you're creating because it's one thing to have a really sustainable boat, but you 119 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:08,840 want it to be useful and fit to perform fit to be fast, etc. So how does that process 120 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,920 work? Like what are the kind of design questions that you have to ask in that process to make 121 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:18,120 sure that you ultimately also end up with a beautiful high performance, relatively affordable 122 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:23,840 product? When we start to produce this kind of component using the recycled carbon fiber, 123 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:29,560 so our focus as Rick Carbon says is mainly on the on the carbon fiber, the recycled carbon 124 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:35,240 fiber is more expensive than virgin glass fiber, but it's cheaper of course than virgin 125 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:42,640 carbon fiber. As Alessandro said, in the analytical marine market, of course, normally the main 126 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:49,400 focus was for decades, it has always been into the fiberglass plastics or the first 127 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:55,400 plastic. When we deal with recycled carbon fiber, we are more expensive, a bit more expensive, 128 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:01,120 generally speaking, but of course, also we can have better mechanical properties. So 129 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:06,280 when we produce the sandwich panel, we make them in one shop without using bonding, as 130 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:11,600 I said, so that allows us to have a cheaper process in order to compensate. We can say 131 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:17,080 it's a trade off in between the cost of the material and the cost of the process so that 132 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:23,840 in the end, we are in the same terms of the classic traditional glass fiber or wood panel. 133 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:29,320 The marine wood is also expensive, and not only because when we produce these kind of 134 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:35,200 sandwich panels, we also reach up to 30, 35% increase in the mechanical properties and 135 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:41,920 also a reduction about 30, 40% in the weight. So this allows the end user, in this case, 136 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:49,240 NL Comp or other one, to also choose trade off between weight and mechanical properties. 137 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:56,480 And this allows the end user to have the really best solution in terms of weight reduction, 138 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:02,440 performances, etc. As I said, with NL Comp, we are trying to avoid the use of any kind 139 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:08,240 of thermoset raisins or bonding. So we are working in order not to disclose too much, 140 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:13,080 but we are working to into the mechanical bonding. We can say in order to also have 141 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:20,080 a better manotability in terms of change spare parts. You don't have to change all the boat 142 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:26,840 or the whole, but not only also with thermoplastic, you can say thermoplastic raisin or thermoplastic 143 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:33,480 bonding, we can say using the behavior of the thermoplastic itself. So we expect really 144 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,960 good results within this year, really. And Ali, from your perspective, what was it for 145 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,240 NL Composite? Because appreciating you have got, you know, you are building a brand and 146 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:47,440 a reputation for exceptional racing boats as well. I mean, the EcoRace is a great example. 147 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:52,080 You've been winner of World Sustainability Awards with World Sailing. So how important 148 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,680 was this for you also in the process of performance, anaesthetic, as well as more sustainable 149 00:13:56,680 --> 00:14:02,000 materials? It was the key point because sustainability is fundamental for us, but from the industrial 150 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:07,480 point of view, cannot accept, let's say, a big trade off, a big compromise to performance. 151 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:14,280 So the point was to develop a material that was as performance as the classical glass 152 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:19,880 fiber, but also more sustainable and recyclable. This was the key point of three years of research 153 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:25,600 and development that we carried out since the beginning of our activity. And at the 154 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:30,920 same time, we wanted to be also as cheap as glass fiber that is pretty cheap. And this 155 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:37,440 is one of the points of huge success in many industrial fields. The work started from the 156 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:43,600 PhD of one of the founders that was then carried out within the startup. The main problem was 157 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:49,240 in finding the correct manufacturing parameters to allow the production of this material that 158 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:56,640 ended up to be this composite we patented and it's composed by, as I said before, thermoplastic 159 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:02,800 resin, flex fiber mainly, but in general, natural fibers and recycled carbon fiber. We 160 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:08,400 need all these components in order to have the same performance as glass fiber and also 161 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:15,560 a good surface finish that's fundamental when we were producing both because we need very 162 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:21,520 smooth surfaces in order to be very hydrodynamic and go fast. Of course, once we had the material 163 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:27,080 in the laboratory, we validate the process. We develop to create the material and we start 164 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:35,000 building a small thingy that we launched together in 2018-21. And then we scale it up and we 165 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,800 build the Accra Racer 25 that's 7.5 meters racing boat. It was, let's say, still a prototype, 166 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:47,880 but it was able to win the Italian Sport Boat Championship. The sustainability were the 167 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:54,000 Acrofayernumination, so it was a huge success and we're really proud of it. And Accra 25 168 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:00,520 then helped us to finally develop Accra Racer 30 that's our main product up to now and it's 169 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:06,640 a 9-meter racing boat made in this case of a mix of glass and carbon fiber to increase 170 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:12,000 the performance but to be maintaining the recyclability of the product, of course. And 171 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,200 it was a huge success, the launch of the Recerti 30 that was done last year, on the occasion 172 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,560 of the arrival of the Ocean Race in Geneva and it was amazing. 173 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,920 It's an incredible, incredible achievement and I remember it obviously well with the 174 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,480 Ocean Race and it's a really cool partnership that you had on board there. I think also 175 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,560 it's proving that this technology is not only applicable obviously to hulls. I mean, as 176 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,160 you know, there are a whole load of use cases for structural application of the kind of 177 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,280 technology and the materials that you guys are developing together. So from your industrial 178 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,240 machinery and the furniture industry, I know obviously with the Ocean Race a couple of 179 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,920 panels being made here and there as opposed to the whole boat hulls and also wind turbines. 180 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,560 I mean, this is whilst obviously end of life boats are probably one of the biggest burning 181 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,600 issues in the marine industry, the technology you're creating. I mean, this is material 182 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:06,080 science and you can apply that material to a whole lot of different industries. How scalable 183 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,680 is it and how widespread do you hope this technology becomes for yourself and also for 184 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,240 the industry more broadly? Is it possible to do it at scale? 185 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:19,320 I mean, we at NL Comp we develop a material. I would say that we're not only boat builders 186 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:24,240 but we are a research company that develops sustainable composite materials. And we have 187 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:29,560 done this by changing the manufacturing process, changing the manufacturing parameters, the 188 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:34,680 materials involved to achieve the same performance as the classic composite with a sustainable 189 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,320 product. So I would say that the baseline of the manufacturing process is the same as 190 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,960 the one used today but with some updated to make it sustainable. So in this sense, the 191 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,280 process is as scalable as the actual one. In fact, as you were saying before, plastic 192 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:56,120 is not only an issue of both building but also in the wind turbine industry. And we have 193 00:17:56,120 --> 00:18:02,120 a joint venture with another Italian company to make the first wind turbine blade made 194 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:08,680 out of our composite. We launched it two months ago. This partnership is another great challenge. 195 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,520 From the industrial point of view, there is still some resistance, I would say, but this 196 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:19,480 is physiological because we are using glass fiber since the 1920s. So it's almost 100 197 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:25,000 years. It works perfectly. So why we need to change it? It's cheap, no maintenance, lightweight, 198 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:31,160 good performance. And I mean, I can understand why industries don't want to revolutionize 199 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:36,600 this kind of process. And this is why we needed to let them know that our product does not 200 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:43,880 change the way they are doing, but it can help to innovate them. And in this sense, we're 201 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:49,640 finding some great partnership with some Italian shipyard. For example, the new Grand 202 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:57,760 Soleil Blue that was launched in the last festival will be made entirely by our technology 203 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:03,800 or composite. So this is an amazing success for us. And also it was a great bet from 204 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:09,360 Grand Soleil to invest in our technology. We also have some collaboration with San 205 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:15,120 Giorgio Marine that is a new shipyard here in Genoa that is building the new Musa 40, 206 00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:21,040 the one that just won the Trans-Azure Converber with Ambradio Becaria. And we're still in 207 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:26,560 a research process to make some part of this boat with our material. For Ambradio, we made 208 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,600 some small structures that go back and forth through the ocean and came back in perfect 209 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:36,200 conditions. So we're really happy about it. We are keep testing the material in different 210 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,240 environments and under different loading conditions and it's worked incredibly well, I would say. 211 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,680 That's great news, Ali. And I think like anything, you are trying to change an industry, which 212 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,720 as you said, that sort of basic composite hadn't changed since the 40s, 50s, which is 213 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,240 a long time for an industry and for all of us, even as consumers, to become very wedded 214 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,800 to a particular way of doing things. So it's really cool to hear the progress that you're 215 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,760 making already. And like you said, whether it's wind turbine blades or otherwise, these 216 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:09,360 things have got exceptionally finite design parameters for the strength and integrity 217 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:13,600 needed, right? So I appreciate it is a bit of a journey to convert those industries to 218 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,240 understanding the same can be achieved with ultimately at times a lighter weight material 219 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,040 as you guys are talking about, with the same structural integrity, if not even stronger 220 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,560 with that whole element of recyclability at the end. So I appreciate it's a lot to convert, 221 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,880 but it sounds like you're making exceptional progress in it. I do want to grill you Patrick 222 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:37,400 slightly on the carbon point because it is fascinating. And obviously for everyday lay 223 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,440 people like myself, non design engineers, the sustainable engineers, obviously carbon and 224 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,160 carbon dioxide are everywhere, right? It's an essential component and building block 225 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,280 of our natural environment found in all of us and most things. And appreciate obviously 226 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:56,920 the more recent narrative and sort of scientific studies showing that obviously the excess 227 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,120 carbon dioxide is an issue. So capturing that and we're using it if possible or burying 228 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:07,720 it or storing it is obviously something that many minds are trying to work towards. But 229 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:14,560 how is it and what is recarbons process around taking that excess carbon dioxide and methane, 230 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,720 I think, and reusing it somehow not only obviously trying to extract it from the environment 231 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,720 where there is too much of it ultimately, but also using it again for something that's 232 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,800 quite useful. How does that work? 233 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:34,000 So starting from the very old, we can say that just to make a little introduction into 234 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:39,480 the carbon fiber market, it's important to understand one thing that each year more 235 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:48,880 than 30k tons of carbon fiber become waste in total of more than 120 tons of new carbon 236 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:55,920 fiber produced. So likely 30% of the new carbon fiber in the same year become in the whole 237 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:01,880 production chain become waste. So if we could manage to reuse and recycle all the produce 238 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:10,240 waste, we would have saved each year 450,000 kilotons of CO2 carbon dioxide. So it's really 239 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,720 a big amount of course, it's theoretical, it's not possible. But that's the basis, the 240 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,840 main focus. When we started recarbons, basically we had a former and we had also still have 241 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:28,840 a former company, which was a consultancy company in the mainly automotive and aerospace 242 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:37,520 markets. And we had an important request from an important Italian OEM, high-end OEM. In 243 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:46,080 order to recover their own waste, they produced like 20, 30 tons of carbon fiber waste on 244 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:54,600 the every form from the dry fiber to the polymerized to the cured one. So every kind of waste, 245 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,720 in order to recover them in new product, in their new production, in their new cars. 246 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:05,720 So what we do in recarbons was that was the main point because we looked into the market 247 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:11,360 and we found out that there was like a missing point, a missing loop between the recovering 248 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:16,800 of the waste itself and the reintroduction into the market in terms of new intermediate 249 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:22,760 products which were able to be transformed and to be used by the end users. That's why 250 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:30,440 we founded the recarbons. And as a recarbons, we can manage all the chain through partnership. 251 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:36,400 Of course, we are just nearly two years old company, so it's impossible to make everything 252 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,360 by ourselves. What we do internally is the production of the intermediate products. And 253 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:46,480 we also can manage through partnership with stable partnership, also the management of 254 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:52,360 the waste of the carbon fiber waste. So we can collect the waste, re-transform them and 255 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:56,360 reintroduce into the market. When you spoke in the beginning, when you asked me about 256 00:23:56,360 --> 00:24:03,480 the carbon dioxide, the CO2, that's the main point. When you produce new verging carbon 257 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:12,160 fiber, you have to reach more than 1000 degrees Celsius degrees to produce the fiber itself. 258 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:18,120 When you recover the waste, so when you go through two kinds of recovering, you can have 259 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:24,960 a chemical one, so volysis, but you have to deal with acid and it's difficult to have 260 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:31,360 also the, in terms of bureaucracy, etc. It's better to avoid it. And the other kind is the 261 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:36,640 pyrolysis. When you paralyze the carbon fiber waste, you don't have to reach the 1000 and 262 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:43,360 more 1000 and a half degrees Celsius. You just have to reach 300, 400 degrees in order 263 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:49,760 to, we can say, degrade the resin. That's why it's immediately understandable that you 264 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:57,320 have different terms of energy consumption. Of course, it's not a 100% eco-sustainable 265 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:03,680 process, of course, will be not real. But of course, it's really low. You have a reduction 266 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:11,120 of around 80% in terms of CO2 and carbon dioxide, GWP. So we have a strong reduction, strong 267 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:17,080 reduction, 80%. Of course, it's not 99%, it's not 100%, but it's impossible also to think 268 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:24,480 about it. But this is an improvement because you strongly reduce the carbon dioxide from 269 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:29,640 the very beginning when you produce the new material with the carbon fiber waste. So when 270 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:36,080 you start with this important reduction, that's easier because you already have a strong reduction, 271 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:42,240 then all you do in the further steps, it's a consequence of this. So you have a greener, 272 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:49,360 you can say, not 100% green, but strongly greener products in terms of LCA. We made 273 00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:58,600 also all the LCA evaluation, which are going to be mandatory in the next year, but we already 274 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,520 started with that kind of application and study because for our company, it was really 275 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,840 important to have a surplus also in these terms, in terms of sustainability aspects. 276 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:16,640 So yes, we can say that, as I said, when we are referring to the virgin carbon fiber, 277 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:24,800 we reduce up to 80% the carbon dioxide. When we deal with the virgin glass fiber, so comparing 278 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:32,880 with the virgin glass fiber, we have a lightly less reduction in terms of a half. We are 279 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:40,400 likely a half better in terms of carbon dioxide, but which is actually still better, of course, 280 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:48,160 really better. And it's really important because you can't reach a really 100% sustainability, 281 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:53,240 sustainable process. What we suggest, and that's why we focus on the thermoplastic also, 282 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,480 it's not only to reduce the carbon dioxide in the beginning of introducing the new component, 283 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:06,640 but also because you can have a reusable and recyclable component. So the better thing, 284 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:14,760 of course, is to avoid the introduction of every new component each time. If you can 285 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:21,240 manage to reuse, recycle them, it will be better, of course, in terms of the LCA itself. 286 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:26,800 So that's the first point. And also, with Enel Comp, they focus its own on the thermoplastic. 287 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:33,000 That's why we work together and we match in these kind of processes, etc. Because you 288 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:39,120 see, Alessandro was speaking also about the wind blades. The first wind, you can say the 289 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:46,120 wind farms with wind blade farms. And now, at the end of their life, the 25, 30 years 290 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:52,120 ago, now have to be dismantled in the next few years. So that is glass fiber, but in 291 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:58,480 terms of concept, it's the same. So if you avoid to use the worst material in terms of 292 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,800 thermosets, etc., for new blades, for new components in the automotives, in the marine, etc., 293 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:10,480 you avoid to have the problem 20, 30 years later in the time to have the problem of recovering 294 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:16,920 them. We started to recover them and producing and reintroducing the waste of the past, we 295 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:23,760 can say. But the focus is also to change the future. So change the conception of the idea 296 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:32,360 of working with the waste and the thermoplastic in this kind is something that allows you 297 00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:39,040 to be a better management of the end of life. Because what can be an end of life like in 298 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:46,960 the marine, like a panel in the marine, could be a new product in another market like furniture 299 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:54,120 or other things. So you can also extend the lifespan of the component, maybe for the double 300 00:28:54,120 --> 00:29:00,440 of the normal time. So you can have shifted the problem in the decades and also whenever 301 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:07,480 it's time to recover the end of life of the component after the reuse, you can also recycle 302 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,760 it because it's thermoplastic. That's basically the idea. 303 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,720 It's incredible. And I think there's a couple of points there. I mean, reducing anything 304 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:23,120 by 50% is already a massive win. 80% is just nuts, frankly. And even indicative of the temperatures 305 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,720 you're talking about taking it from almost 100% down to 10% in terms of even just the 306 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,280 energy required in order to transmutate that material into something different is really 307 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,760 astounding. So I can really understand how this technology and material science is really 308 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,480 changing the way that we've done things across industry. And I think the second most exciting 309 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,880 element is exactly what you just indicated, Patrick, is the fact that we don't have to 310 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:54,320 be thinking in isolation as an industry. The marine industry is an industry in which materials 311 00:29:54,320 --> 00:30:00,080 are used for specific purposes, normally under incredible force, exposed to some incredible 312 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,760 elements, whether it's wind, whether it's UV, salt water, a lot of pressures. But there 313 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,560 are a lot of other industries thereafter that could be using that material for much less 314 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:15,120 intensive means. One day it's amassed and the next day it could be something very mundane 315 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,080 in everyday life, whether it's your coffee cup or something else. The point is that we 316 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,400 can be exercising that usefulness across our industries as a material automatically and 317 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:29,160 gently loses its integrity over time. So I think that's what's the most exciting about 318 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,160 it in some ways is that we don't need to be thinking in isolation to solve an issue when 319 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,760 actually this is really a question of material science. And as you know, we've got the same 320 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:44,160 technology or bits and pieces in our phones that also appear in a whole myriad of different 321 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:50,040 industries in the world. So I think that's what's genuinely incredibly exciting area 322 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:55,240 is to be thinking across different fields rather than just one same one. I appreciate 323 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,040 it as engineers, that makes total sense to you. But I think for certainly for thinking 324 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,960 on the industry, trying to solve the end of life issue, it doesn't necessarily mean we 325 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,560 have to solve it in marine for marine. It is a material which could have another use 326 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:13,040 in another context quite readily. We just need to find it. What's your advice? I mean, 327 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,640 obviously, start with you, Alessandro, you know, you're five years old and I'll composite 328 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,160 you've achieved a lot so far, but appreciate this still remains quite new technology in 329 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,560 a newish way of thinking to much of our industry as the marine industry, but also other industries, 330 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,080 as you mentioned, still having to take obviously people on the journey with you. What's your 331 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:37,800 advice or ask of the industry to help support the future of more sustainable boat building 332 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:38,800 in particular? 333 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,680 Also, there is a greater awareness of existing solution. Of course, they can be adapted to 334 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:48,680 specific needs of each manufacturer. I mean, it's just a matter of believing in it a little 335 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:54,920 more, you know, different markets have different consideration of also the of their ways, etc. 336 00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,000 It's just a matter of believing it, anticipating regulation because regulations are coming from 337 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:06,400 European Union, national regulations, etc. etc. So in terms of sustainability, everything 338 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:12,200 is moving. Some markets already did the automotive, especially they are already introducing, you 339 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:18,000 know, big OEMs also you may probably saw the broad in the brain, the television advertising, 340 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:27,040 etc. Each kind of OEM is declaring and saying that they will reduce by 40% the carbon dioxide 341 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,920 within the 2030 like something like this, because the regulations are coming. So they 342 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:37,680 already spent their word, we can say in the marine is a bit different, of course, but also 343 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,400 it's a different market. But the issue about the end of life of the boat, it's real, it's 344 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,480 tangible, it's a bad condition of the in terms of sustainability. So it's just a term of 345 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:53,920 anticipating and believing more into the whole aspect. So anticipating the regulation just 346 00:32:53,920 --> 00:33:00,640 to keep the sustainable direction and heading into a new era, you can say so. Also in terms 347 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:06,520 of if you're an OEM, a brand, a big producer of both, you can anticipate the market. So 348 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:12,520 we'll be the first mover. It's always better, of course, also in terms of your image, what's 349 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:18,560 your imprinting into the into the people into the the awareness about the problem. So that's 350 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:24,680 important. You know, in the in these days, 2024, also in terms of image, we can say in 351 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:31,760 the social, etc. It's fundamental, you know, so it's a big deal. The suggestion is to start 352 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:38,080 the path into the sustainable direction, believing because it's not it's not pure. It's not at 353 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,880 all a greenwashing. It's not a greenwashing. It's a it's a real deal. It's a real solution, 354 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:44,880 we can say. 355 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,400 So you're absolutely right. And importantly, something you mentioned there is is almost 356 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,880 you move or you be moved. And actually, regulation does take a while to catch up as we're seeing 357 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,120 in the end of life boating element is taking decades. And I appreciate that these materials 358 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,760 have been built to last as long as possible, until taste change, until they get a bit too 359 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,000 old and tacit. Our requirements for boats have changed dramatically even in the last 360 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,840 15 years, let alone the last 50 60. So I think to your point, regulation is catching up. 361 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,040 And therefore, something does need to be done. I appreciate even just this week, there are 362 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,880 calls from Europe, obviously, to start the boat registration process as an example, the 363 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,360 same as you would register your car. Why would we not register our boats so that we can better 364 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,440 track end of life vessels? Obviously, it does cost harbour authorities around the world 365 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,800 and landowners a lot of money to clear up end of life boats because they get dumped and 366 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,840 no one knows who they belong to often. So it's an imperfect system to say the least. 367 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:48,960 So we might be entirely move or be moved, as we all see. And I'll composite Alessandro, 368 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:54,480 what is your main ask of the industry going forward to help more sustainable boat building? 369 00:34:54,480 --> 00:35:00,120 From the boat building perspective, changing the way to course make boats with sustainable 370 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:06,360 technology could be a really added value to the boat itself. In fact, as was Patrick 371 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,440 saying, the environmental problem is central in all the economical aspect and especially 372 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:18,840 in Western countries and even more for high-end products like a leisure boat, let's say. And 373 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:26,440 people are also willing to spend money to invest into a product that will be also sustainable 374 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,320 for making our planet a better place in the future. And other than that, it's important 375 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:37,840 to know that when a person buy a boat, then after 20 years, now after 20 years that he's 376 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:43,480 selling around, he really don't know what to do with the boat itself. So they are just 377 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:49,480 keeping like abandoning them in shipyard and nobody is really dealing with this problem. 378 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,720 As you say, the registration of the boat could be a good starting point to create awareness 379 00:35:54,720 --> 00:36:00,200 of this kind of issue. But if we can propose to the market a solution that says not only 380 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,840 we are making like your boat more sustainable with the same performance, the same characteristics, 381 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:12,200 and I would say also same prices because up to now our technology are composite like 10% 382 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:18,800 more expensive than glass fiber. But this 10% is not intrinsic in the process, but it's 383 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,920 due to the more expensive fiber because natural fibers are not produced in such a big amount 384 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,960 as glass fibers, so they are more expensive. But if we can like be the traction to move 385 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:35,760 towards this path also fast with the frizz and this became a sustainable solution from 386 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,440 all point of view. And we are as I was saying, we are giving to the market not only a product 387 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:47,680 that today is better, but we are also like giving a solution for 20 years from now when 388 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,840 you have to get rid of the boat because we can say, okay, give it back to us so we can 389 00:36:52,840 --> 00:37:01,280 dismantle it, we can recycle all the materials and we will go to, I would say an ideal zero 390 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:02,280 weight industry. 391 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,320 That's very exciting because ultimately as you know, Patrick you talked a lot about 392 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,320 sort of life cycle analysis, the sort of LCA life cycle assessment of any kind of material 393 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,760 or products. But I think that's what we're also seeing talking again about regulation 394 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,440 is that, you know, if I produce something ultimately it's my responsibility to then 395 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,840 deal with it at the end of life. And we are seeing in the UK and Europe movement being 396 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,680 made towards legislation around this that it ultimately becomes a producer's problem 397 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:35,160 to dispose of, recycle, reuse or otherwise, material. And I think obviously a lot of that's 398 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,760 promulgated by the plastic industry in particular that's obviously come to everyone's attention 399 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,240 most prominently over the last five years I think, and plastic pollution. But ultimately 400 00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:50,560 if I produce a can of soda, then ultimately it becomes my issue once the consumers bought 401 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,960 that, drunk it to then take that can back and do something with it. And what you're 402 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,920 achieving already or mindset is very much around, cool, I know in a couple of years 403 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:04,160 time, 10, 20, however long, I'm ultimately going to get that effectively that base resource 404 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,920 back to rebuild something with. And you can actually start building that into your, almost 405 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,280 like your resource plan, you don't need to be producing virgin, effectively virgin all 406 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:19,000 the time, even if your virgin material is effectively recarbon already, and natural 407 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,240 fibers that have already been kind of used once. So it's an exception, exciting, but 408 00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:29,840 exceptionally tense time, I'd say to be a producer of anything, because as Patrick said, 409 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,280 like we are, I think as an industry and more broadly as a society, going to get caught 410 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:40,600 out unless we kind of think bigger, more quickly around end of life materials. Is that fair? 411 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:47,200 Yeah, I would like to close with a consideration to live with listener. What really happens 412 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:52,800 today to the boats, they are no recyclable waste, unsustainable at all. We can say that 413 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,960 no matter what they say, the people say, no matter what the OEM say, no matter what the 414 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:02,480 advertising say, at this moment, today, the boats are unsustainable. We can say that it's 415 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:09,480 real, it's unsustainable. So we recarbon and NLCon together or not together, but same way, 416 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:15,360 somehow we are working to solve these problems by creating material, new material, new technology 417 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:21,400 that are really sustainable in terms of both intrinsically, and also for the, as I said, 418 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:27,320 as we mentioned many times today, for the end of life of the component. So in terms of a 419 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:32,440 real, a recoverability of the material and a real reuse of the waste. That's it. That's 420 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,120 all in the focus. 421 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:41,320 I think that was really poignant Patrick. Alessandro Patrick, thank you so much for joining me this 422 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,160 morning. It's a real pleasure. I'm both excited and somewhat in awe of your minds and your 423 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:52,240 teams being able to really address this decade long issue and see it as an opportunity. So 424 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:57,040 thank you both so much for your time. We wish you all the best and please keep us updated. 425 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,040 Thank you. 426 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,760 Thank you for asking us. It was an incredible pleasure to be asked it today. So thank you 427 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:03,760 again. 428 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:10,240 It was a pleasure being here. 429 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:14,320 You've been listening to the Clean Sailors podcast. All relevant links to the projects 430 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,800 and people we talk to can be found with the podcast link. For all episodes or to get in 431 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:24,200 touch, just visit CleanSailors.com. We love to hear from you. We believe that great ideas 432 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:29,040 should be shared, which is why our podcast is free to appear on. So if you've got a project, 433 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:34,680 idea or topic you think we should be discussing, get in touch. In the meantime, thank you 434 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:59,360 for listening and see you for the next episode.