1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:21,440 Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. Let's talk about sea, marine, sailing and 2 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,440 keep it clean. I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with 3 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,400 a passion for the health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with experts, innovators 4 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,880 and activists, all working towards improving the health of our seas, we're showcasing 5 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:41,800 the people and projects, changing the way things are done. 6 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,400 Sails like many things have a long history, maybe not as you and I would recognise them 7 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,440 today, but the premise of mounting materials, whether papyrus leaves or animal hide, in 8 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:56,120 order to catch the wind and propel ourselves through water, while sails started way back. 9 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,760 Originally, sailing wasn't the pleasure or the pastime we have today. It was born like 10 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:06,720 many things from necessity, fishing predominantly and then trade and so on. As such, the materials 11 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,200 and engineering of vessels and sails alike developed alongside the advent of more pleasurable 12 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:16,600 yachting as we know it, came much, much more recently, around the 17th century in fact with 13 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:21,440 the Duke of York. Towards the end of the clipper era, small working boats became popular and 14 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:26,320 the rise of sailing as pleasure for a few other than for the elitist of the elite arose. 15 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:31,840 It's a fascinating history, how we expanded from local, safer waters, sourcing food to 16 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,560 traversing through some of the toughest environments our planets have to offer, like oceans and 17 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,240 some of the most exquisitely balanced pressures and forces like in foiling. It is testament 18 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:47,160 to human ingenuity and engineering and not nearly as possible without sails. 19 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,240 Today I'm really excited to welcome a guest who's going to talk us through how he and 20 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:57,200 his business have been looking into modern engineering of sails. I'm really excited 21 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,280 to welcome Daniele de Luca of OneSales. Hello, Daniele. 22 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:02,280 Good morning. 23 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,280 It's good to speak with you. So, Denny, tell us a little bit about firstly you. What's 24 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,000 your relationship with OneSales and how did it come about? 25 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:17,200 I am one of the founders of OneSales, which had been founded 17 years ago in 2007. And 26 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:23,960 since then I have been also the CEO of it. So, it's how to say, it's my baby. I've been 27 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:31,600 growing from zero to now. Among the sale making networks we are the youngest, but we are proud 28 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:38,520 about being different and more creative maybe. The idea behind OneSales is that we have been 29 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:45,560 putting together many very expert sale makers around the world. We are now 52 in 40 countries 30 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:52,760 and we are really sharing the expertise of everybody in order to develop our products, 31 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:58,360 our service, our customer experience in the best way possible because everyone in the 32 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,880 group has a lot of experience and a lot of things to teach each other. It's very nice 33 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:10,360 to see the way we work is that we have set up since the very beginning a sharing system 34 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:16,280 through the cloud and it's unbelievable how everybody can contribute and make our, as 35 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,880 I said, product, service, whatever better every day. 36 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:25,000 That's incredible. Exceptional growth. I mean, 40 countries is not insignificant in the time 37 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,080 frame that you've been around. 38 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:32,920 Sale making is a very particular business because in most of the cases you become a sale maker 39 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:38,200 through your passion. There is not a school and university. You can't decide the only way 40 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,880 to become a sale maker is to make the experience starting from the boat most likely and then 41 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:49,640 going to work in a loft and growing from there. But for sure, the passion is the first drive. 42 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:55,400 And so it's been slightly difficult in the beginning to show other sale makers which 43 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:01,560 was our style, our philosophy. But then when they understood, we had the period where we have been 44 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:08,360 growing faster than what was supposed because they saw the idea behind one's sales and they 45 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:09,560 appreciated that. 46 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:15,240 That's incredible. And when you say about having the passion, I agree with you because 47 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:20,920 most of us will tinker with most things on our boats, even up to the engine and the electrics. 48 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,200 And obviously, aside from small patches, we do leave sales entirely to the professionals. 49 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,600 So it has got to be a passion combined with profession because it really is almost like 50 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:37,000 a dark art of magic. It's really quite exceptional to come up with not just the composite, the materials 51 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:42,520 these days used in sales for the variety of vessels that obviously you cater to, but the 52 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:48,280 extreme pressures and forces that are working on it alongside the design of the boat itself, 53 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:53,640 you know, the waiting and otherwise. It's just so detailed and incredibly delicate, if you like. 54 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,520 But to your point around passion, you're not just any sailor. So tell us a bit about your 55 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,080 experience in sailing itself and don't be humble. 56 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:09,800 My sailing experience is too long because I started when I was very young, six years old. 57 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,840 And actually, the only strange thing is that I didn't start from the optimist because I had an 58 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:21,720 older brother and so I started to sail with him on the flying junior in the late 60s, early 70s, 59 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:29,240 was a class very, very popular for young guys in Italy. And from there I sailed all the classical 60 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:36,520 laser for 20, for 70, flying Dutchman whatsoever, maxi yachts. It's too long the least to mention, 61 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:41,480 but the good thing is that I've been sailing two America's Cup, one Olympic Games as a sailor and 62 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:47,880 one as a coach. So with the wide experience, not only in terms of time, unfortunately, but also 63 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:54,760 in terms of variety of boats, I could have a good overall view on the different needs. Because as you 64 00:05:54,760 --> 00:06:03,720 say, sailmaking is a job, is also an art that is a mix between science and personal feeling, let's say. 65 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:12,120 And so what I think I could give to the group is having a very large view, our industry, a large 66 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:19,720 experience and so drive the help where is needed in the right direction. Because as a group we are 67 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:28,360 producing sails of very, very different kind and size and whatsoever. And so the need is very 68 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:34,440 different as well for the same boat, the need for different areas are different. And this is where 69 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:42,120 I like usually to define our group as a local, because we are almost global, being in 40 countries, 70 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:48,840 but the design and in many cases also the production of the sails is made locally. Because I usually 71 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:55,160 mentioned the sample, the need of a sailor in the Solland is very different from the need of a sailor 72 00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:02,360 in the Med. The habits are different. A day with 15 knots in the Solland is a light wind day where 73 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:08,360 they maybe think not to go because it's not enough wind. Where in the Med with 15 knots they start 74 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,800 thinking maybe it's too much, let's say home. So also the sails must reflect this different style. 75 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:20,840 And only with the local expertise, the real contact with the customer, we can achieve to deliver 76 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,240 the right sails to the right person. That's really fascinating. And I hadn't appreciated, 77 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,360 forgive my naivety, that you would get down to that level of bespokeness when it comes to sails. 78 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:36,040 Because I think often you imagine that you have a class of boats and there's a standard format for 79 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:41,000 the kind of sail that you would require. Tell us a little bit more then about how, I guess because 80 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,480 of your experience on the variety of boats that you have sailed, how have you seen the materials 81 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:51,320 change over the years in particular? As you say, that the sailmaking is coming from very 82 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:58,360 ancient. And it's funny because there are cycles where we are going back to something that was 83 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,880 done in the very beginning, but with different materials. And the new materials are allowing to 84 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:09,560 do things in a better way, lighter. But still there are things that are very hard to change. 85 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:15,400 The biggest example is the material for the gennaker, for the spinnaker, the dowel sails 86 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:21,960 material is remaining the same since almost one century. We are trying hard to change it, 87 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:27,000 but it's very hard to make something that has the same performance and the same reliability. 88 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:35,000 So on some areas there is very little changes, where in other there is a lot of development and 89 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:41,800 research. And nowadays the research has been until 10 years ago, let's say only the best 90 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:47,080 performance. Where speaking about performance in the sails, we need to look at 360. So it doesn't 91 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:53,560 only mean to be a sail that is stiff, it has to be light, it has to be durable. So the characteristics 92 00:08:53,560 --> 00:09:00,200 needed by a sail are quite complicated. And I'm happy to say that about 10 years ago, 93 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:06,760 the mentality started also to think about sustainability that has never been a worry 94 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:12,120 until then. And we have been the first thinking about that and creating something new that is 95 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:19,320 also sustainable. So now it is even more complicated because we still have all the problems before. 96 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:25,480 So the performance I've been talking, plus we need to keep an eye or take care about the 97 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:31,720 sustainability, the end of life of the sails. So it is a really difficult task. Something that people 98 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:39,400 don't realize is that a sail is one of the items overall, not only in sailing, in any industry, 99 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:45,320 that has one of the biggest complications because, as I said, need to have a lot of 100 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:51,400 performance characteristics. But in the meantime, it's really misused. Nothing is misused like a 101 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:58,520 sail because it has the old bad environment you can imagine. So the wind, the salt, the mildew, 102 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:06,760 the sun, whatsoever, plus the sails, when they are hoisted, they live in their environment. But 103 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:13,400 then when we drop, we work on it, we fold, we throw away, sometimes for the need of the maneuvers, 104 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:19,480 we really misuse it. So it is the compromise between something that we really misuse, 105 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:26,360 but then when we use it, we ask the sails a very accurate performance. Whereas normally, 106 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,240 if I don't know anything you think about, if you have a very performing computer, you will be taking 107 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:36,360 care of using it properly. You will not throw, you will not work on it, whatever. I mean, 108 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:41,800 it's a strange thing that people never think about, but it is the characteristic that makes 109 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:47,880 sailmaking a very difficult job. It's fascinating though. And to hear you describe it like that, 110 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:53,560 you're right. I certainly would never have thought about it in that sense, where you are actively 111 00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:58,840 screwing it, scrunching it, keeping it in a dark, damp environment for months of the year, 112 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,600 as well as obviously letting it fly and do its thing when you need it. So having that sort of 113 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:08,520 duplicity of design specification actually has got to make that process really tricky 114 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:14,440 to solve for both well and to keep its durability over time. So I mean, talking about that, and 115 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,840 you've mentioned sort of sustainability, and I would be remiss for not mentioning it given the 116 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:23,560 nature of this podcast, but why then a sail so hard to recycle? Just talk us through it. 117 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:29,080 Exactly for the reason I spoke before, considering that the sails must be able to 118 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:36,600 resist to the worst thing you can imagine. They have to be very, very strong, very reliable. 119 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,720 They have to be stiff. They have to be in the same time light. So you need to use sophisticated 120 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:48,200 materials. And at the end, the materials that has been using for a long period, let's talk about 121 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:53,320 the top performing sails, because we know that then there are there is a huge variety of kind of 122 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:59,400 sales. But talking about the top level sales at the end has been used, is still used the carbon, 123 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:08,040 is used aramid, are used the raising glues that must be super resistant to everything. But this 124 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:14,760 means that at the end of the life of a sales, these things are really difficult to destroy, 125 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:21,240 are difficult to reuse, are difficult to do whatever, because they have been created with 126 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:26,760 very specific characteristic and needs, where one of the most important needs is that they are 127 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:34,200 undestroyable. So when it's time to destroy, that's the point where the thing becomes critical. 128 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:41,480 And the solution for that is not easy. It is something we as one sales with our R&D have been 129 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:47,640 really looking for for a long time. And we also found the solution. We are proud of that. But 130 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:55,160 still, the reason why sales are normally very hard management waste is because they are created 131 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,720 with that purpose. You've hit the nail on the head. Not only is it just the environments that 132 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:05,240 they're built to withstand, but like you said, they're actually actively engineered to withstand 133 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:11,240 the misuse. So the whole point is you can't really break them down or destroy them very easily. 134 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,160 And I'm really looking forward to talking about what one sales have done differently 135 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,680 in a moment. But I think, for the last, say, four years about our project, Resale, which 136 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:26,120 we recognize that there's an end of life opportunity in the marine industry, whether it's 137 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,880 you know, GRP fiberglass hulls, whether it's sheets and lines, which are part of our network now. 138 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:37,160 And also we've got sales as well, recognizing that actually because of exactly what you said, 139 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,720 there is no formal recycling of sales anywhere in the world. And because of the variety, right? 140 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:47,080 The way I sell my boat, Dede, means that I've probably got a good 10, 15 years with my sale. 141 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:53,720 The way you sell yours, give it a week. You'd never have a consistent supply of the same kind of sales 142 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:58,600 anyway, to make something really useful out of them. At the end of the process, and like you said, 143 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:03,080 because of what they're made of and what they're made for, the process of actually stripping them 144 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:08,360 down is a highly intensive chemical process, which takes a lot of water, a lot of energy, 145 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:13,080 which in itself isn't particularly sustainable. And appreciating the intermediary solution 146 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,120 is really upcycling and reusing old sales because at least you keep them out of landfill 147 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,280 for a little bit longer, right? But also a very, very imperfect solution in the long term, 148 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:27,400 because what it means is you, for argument's sake, representing the salemaking industry, 149 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,840 carry on creating the sales in the same way. And then further down the line, we've got to find 150 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,680 relatively ad hoc, predominantly leisure consumer based opportunities to make something useful out 151 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,040 of them. But you've approached this slightly differently, well very differently in fact, 152 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:47,720 and you've approached it really early in the industry. How did you approach as one sales 153 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:54,920 the challenge with end of life? So the very first moment where I started thinking about 154 00:14:54,920 --> 00:15:00,280 there is something wrong has been at the end of my last America's Cup that was in Valencia. I was 155 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:07,240 working as a sales coordinator and because we, as a team, we didn't get through the finals, 156 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:15,480 we had the brand new sales ready for racing that we didn't use, plus all the old sales, etc. 157 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:21,800 And so at the end, one of my job has been to store all the sales in two containers, very full, 158 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:27,160 packed up. And when I was closing these containers, and especially after the end of the Cup, when I 159 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:32,200 realized that the cycle was finished for those kind of boats and we're going to cut down on us, 160 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:38,440 whatever, I thought, imagine we were 14 teams, we were not one of the richest, and we closed 161 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:45,480 two containers full of old sales that nobody will never use. So it's a huge amount of things that are 162 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:51,080 probably are still there somewhere, because there is no way to, we are considering sailing, 163 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:57,320 environment-friendly sport, but are we sure it is true? Because if you imagine the waste we are 164 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:02,520 creating, and I'm talking only about the sales, because then there is much more, but my concentration 165 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:08,760 was on sales. So I thought, there should be something we can do better. And I started talking 166 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:15,640 with our engineering team saying, guys, we need to not only look at the performance, but we need 167 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:22,200 to look in parallel to see if we can do something better in terms of end of life. Of course, as you 168 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,800 mentioned, this is one of the, I'm talking about the top technology, but then there are all the 169 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:35,000 rest of the sales. So for sure, upcycling or recycling, many of the items are attached to the 170 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:40,760 sales is a good thing. It's for sure a good approach. And also there is, in some cases, 171 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:48,920 the possibility to reuse the old cloth to create some bags or sometimes somebody is creating some 172 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:56,040 dent or whatever. Yes, better than nothing, but still at the end, those items will go in the 173 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:02,440 landfill, but let's say better than nothing. The other thing is, as you say, is much better to 174 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:09,160 create sales that are lasting longer instead of having sales use and throw away. So again, 175 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:16,440 the durability of the sales as they are for their purpose, longer it is, better it is for the 176 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:23,000 environment, but still in any of these cases, there is an end of life. And then they become 177 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:31,560 critical waste. We sometimes collecting old sales from our customers, we have to pay to give to the 178 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,440 waste companies, but I don't know what they are going to do with that, because also burning 179 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:42,120 is difficult. In some cases, it's impossible. So this is where our approach to think about 180 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:49,960 sustainability started and was 16 years ago. And it took more than five years of research, 181 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:57,160 of tests, of attempt failures, also frustrating sometimes to sort out something that we achieved 182 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:05,080 at the end that is now really recyclable in the real sense of the term, in the sense that can be 183 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:12,040 milled, fused, creating pellets and recreate something. But I have to say that when we launched 184 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:19,240 this new technology that is called 40, it was 11 years ago. And I remember we made a press 185 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:25,320 conference announcing all the peculiarities of the material that is performing, is light, 186 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:33,240 is durable, etc. Plus we said as Lose your to a mission in the production already. So in the very 187 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,520 beginning of his life is already, let's say, sustainable, plus is recyclable at the end of 188 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:44,680 the life. And I remember that the most of the journalists was mostly Italian journalists. 189 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:50,520 They say, who cares about that? I won't say it's that perform. Already 11 years ago, 190 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,880 sustainability was not yet in the mentality. And I have to say that it's very different 191 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:01,480 from area to area. We really see that, for example, North Europe is much more sensible to this 192 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:08,760 than South Europe or other part of the world. But the real change in the mentality in our customers, 193 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:14,680 let's say in the market, has been done by the COVID. The real jump towards thinking about 194 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:22,440 sustainability we saw after the COVID, more and more customers that are interested on asking 195 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:28,920 why, how it's made. And also customers that I had some cases where for budget reason, 196 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:35,960 a customer decided to go for another technology. And the day after called me, said, I couldn't 197 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:41,480 sleep this night. I felt guilty. So let's go for the sustainable technology, even if it's 198 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:49,080 likely more expensive. That is a good sign in the growing of the mentality towards sustainable 199 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:54,360 technology. It is a good sign. But to your point, I don't think you can have, you wouldn't purchase 200 00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:59,640 sustainable sales that were more expensive unless you also had the performance, right? I think for 201 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:05,000 sustainability is an incredibly important factor, as long as it doesn't compromise the performance 202 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:12,840 so much. You wouldn't buy a sale which is 10 kilograms, 20 kilograms heavier, and had a few 203 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:18,600 extra holes in it and couldn't quite maybe flex enough to be sailing up windows as close as you 204 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,720 used to, but it was sustainable. And I think that's the biggest opportunity and also perhaps the most 205 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:30,680 exciting and difficult sort of design specifications to solve is how you manage all of that and 206 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,480 without it being a compromise. Because ultimately, your business, like most businesses, you know, 207 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:40,440 you've got a product, you've got a USP, which is high performance and exceptional quality sales, 208 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:46,200 at a price point. And there is a degree of flexibility in that appreciate as long as you're 209 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,320 adding extra value. And of course, it could be moral value, ethical value, perceptional value, 210 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,160 as long as it's not a complete trade off, right? And that really is the balance and the skill to get 211 00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:02,760 right. The task to maintain or even increase the performance, plus having the sustainability has 212 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,360 been a really tough task. And I have to say that we have been also lucky by some point of view, 213 00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:15,240 because in the beginning, the request was, okay, let's develop something new, keeping an eye on 214 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:23,080 sustainability, but we cannot forget, actually, the first goal is to be able to perform better 215 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:29,560 than what we have now to be also in the market by the price point of view. You need to combine all 216 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:35,880 the various pieces of the puzzle, just adding one more piece at the puzzle. But the other one must 217 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:42,440 be the same. So the goal has been to increase. And there is a lot of research also for other 218 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:50,040 areas. And actually, the key of our research has been a material that is an ultra high weight 219 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:56,040 molecular polyethylene that has been developed by a Japanese company. And the development of it was 220 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:04,760 for very different purposes, for bulletproof jackets, for artificial bones. So it was totally 221 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:12,200 away from sailing. And the key factor has been that our main engineer that is engineer Percarlo 222 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:18,600 Malta, that is the inventor of our technology, found this material and understood that that 223 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:26,040 could be the key that will close the puzzle. And actually, it was true. That material is as 224 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:32,840 incredible, exceptional performances. But on the other hand, consider that it is used to do the 225 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:39,320 artificial bones. This means that this material that is very difficult to attack from chemical 226 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:47,640 agents from anything so much that also the glues are not sticking on it. So we had to develop a 227 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:53,320 different way to put together all the components of the sail. And actually, our sails, our 14 228 00:22:53,320 --> 00:23:01,240 membranes are made not by glue or by chemical reaction, but are made by the fusion. So it's a 229 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:09,800 physical reaction to fusion of the materials that in a very peculiar process, the engineer Malta has 230 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:17,000 been inventing. We fuse the sail, all the components, and we put all together by fusing. And this has 231 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:23,400 been the other key factor of sorting out that this way we can have all the different parts of the 232 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:29,240 sail, so the main structure made with this ultra high weight molecular polyethylene. Plus the external 233 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:36,600 surfaces, the abrasion protection, the UV protection, the secondary load holding, etc. They are all 234 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:44,440 coming from the same original molecular, differently treated. That is the same as PE. So it's the same 235 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,840 as the plastic bottles at the end, just treated differently. And this is the reason why at the 236 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:59,720 end of the life of our sails, we can mill, fuse, create pellets, and redo something. We did really 237 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:06,600 the full cycle, because everything I'm saying, but I like to underline it, everything I'm saying, 238 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:15,240 and everything we are declaring is officially certified following the ISO rules. So the standard 239 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:22,520 official certified rules and the certified by third party, because as I said, where in the past 240 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:28,680 environmental sustainability was not a problem now is in the mouth of everybody. Everybody is trying 241 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:35,160 to tell something about sustainability. And I'm starting to see not only in said making, but 242 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:41,960 in the industry generally, a lot of people that is greenwashing, we have been following only the 243 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,920 official path and only the certification can really demonstrate that what you are telling, 244 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:52,680 what you are declaring is true. And on top of that, and I go back to the original argument, 245 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:59,160 we wanted to really demonstrate the full cycle. And we did it with the last Vendée Globe, we made 246 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:05,240 the sales for a team that was an English team, PPR team, Medallia. The sales have been successfully 247 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:12,680 doing the regatta around the world. And by Pips' declaration, she said, are so good that I could 248 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:19,400 do one more lap around the world without problems. They are so durable. But still, the purpose of 249 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:25,080 this operation has been to demonstrate that are recyclable. So we took the sale, we chopped all 250 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:32,360 the items, the rings, the leach lines, whatever, around the sales, we took the body of it, we went 251 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:40,600 into a standard recycling industry where they are recycling the plastic bottles, we put in the sales, 252 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:48,360 we got the pellets, with those pellets, we created the pencils, sunglasses, headboards, 253 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:56,040 button rockets. So we created other items. So it is proved that this is real and it's possible to do 254 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:01,560 without any special, because the other thing is you can create something that is recyclable. 255 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:09,240 But if recycling costs in terms of water, of energy, or whatever, more than what you save, 256 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:15,880 again, you are not doing something helping the environment. So there was the need that it goes 257 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:22,840 into the standard process, what is normal and we did it. So the material and the only way we could 258 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:28,760 achieve it is to have the same original molecular, because when you fuse and you mix everything, 259 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:34,680 you go back to the original. I know it is a bit complicated concept, but I hope I could explain 260 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,960 in a very basic way. You explained it perfectly, Dedy. And I think the first year is such an 261 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,400 incredible achievement and to have done it arguably so early on in comparison to perhaps 262 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:52,360 an industry which is continuing to, in all honesty, selects the opportunity around, not just end of 263 00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:58,040 life, but actually looking product and material design differently. So by using heat and pressure 264 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:04,040 rather than a chemical one, as you so pointed out, you're more readily enable to reconstitute the 265 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,360 materials into something different. So you're not spending the time, or like you said, the chemicals 266 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:13,400 in the water and trying to pull apart a variety of different laminates and glues, importantly, 267 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,320 that's always the trickiest part is the glue. You're not spending time pulling all of that 268 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:24,040 to pieces in an exceptionally high energy way, rather you already have deconstructed sale, 269 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:29,400 in a sense. It's just sale. So you just apply a different kind of heat and pressure to reduce it 270 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,720 into another material substance that you can reuse as something else, as you said. And the 271 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,680 Pippa Hare example was really fantastic. And I remember that quote around her being ready to 272 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,000 go around again. I mean, it's just phenomenal. We are talking, as you'll well know, about one of the 273 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:48,120 most formidable environments on the planet, the Vendee Globe in particular, not least because 274 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:54,280 it's a race, right? You're doing something not just in a really high intensity, high winds, 275 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,720 UV, saltwater, the lot, but you're doing it as fast as you possibly can. So the torsion and the 276 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,160 pressure and the forces that you're putting those cells under are pretty unparalleled. 277 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:09,480 What I'm really interested in today is the fact that it's possible. And it's possible if you ask 278 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,600 the right question. And what I'm really intrigued to know from you as sort of a co-founder and also 279 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:21,480 as a CEO, what did you ask? What was the premise with which you went into your forte, forte sales 280 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:28,520 with differently? Was it just create another sale better, stronger? Was it lighter? What was it that 281 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:34,520 you wanted to create that the outcome was something that was actually fully recyclable by all of the 282 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:39,800 modern standards? How did you think differently going into that specific process? You know, 283 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:45,000 it was the combination of the story of the containers I've been talking about and also the 284 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:53,480 fact that we were in 2008, 2009, that period, most of the sales of any brand of any technology, 285 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:59,640 again, talking about the high level, top level sales, were made with mylar and with the carbon 286 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:07,240 or aromatic fibers. Almost every filmmaker made differently whatsoever, but it was a constant. 287 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:14,920 That was a super smart invention made in the 90s. So it was more than 20 years that there was no 288 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:21,560 development. And these materials were performing well, but they had some weaknesses. Apart from 289 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:28,040 the sustainability, we know that carbon is an exceptional material, but it's fragile. And so 290 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:34,360 it was breaking by the time by the flaking again. If you laminate it into a rigid hull, 291 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,880 it has no problem, it can last forever. But having the sales, the need of being flexible, 292 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:46,280 carbon is not the ideal material because when you glue it, it becomes brittle. The mylar was 293 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:54,200 suffering a lot UV and by the time it was becoming again brittle, it was opening small windows. 294 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,800 Being transparent, it was not protecting the glue inside. So the glue was at a certain point 295 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:06,840 crystallizing and we had the delamination problem. So it was a very good result for the 90s. But in 296 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:13,640 the 2010, it was not a good material. And they said, how is it possible that after 20 years, 297 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,600 we are still building the sales with the same materials that we know had problems? 298 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:24,360 And this has been the starting point. So we need to change, find something different from the carbon. 299 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:29,320 We need to find something different from mine. And this is where our patent went. And there has 300 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:35,320 been other solutions around in the market going into that direction. And actually nowadays, 301 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:41,800 we see the mylar and the sales based on mylar are almost disappearing because the whole market has 302 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:47,480 gone into that direction. As I said, by chance, because we have been lucky and also because 303 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:53,640 we have been thinking about that, this is what we are proud of, the solution we found is also 304 00:30:53,640 --> 00:31:00,200 sustainable. But I like to underline, as you said before, that the first goal has been to 305 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:07,960 achieve the performance to overtake the performance of the mylar and the carbon in terms of stability, 306 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:13,960 shape holding, lightness, durability, and then sustainability. Otherwise, you don't have a business. 307 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,680 Exactly. I think that's an important thing. And actually, it's a really complicated area. And I 308 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:25,320 appreciate that by virtue of, say, clean sailors, it's easy to come at it from an environmental 309 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,680 perspective. That's in some ways the challenge. But as a business person myself, you have to 310 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:37,320 understand that you create a product that is deemed valuable to a market enough that you can 311 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:43,640 create income and revenue to create more products, create more value to a bigger market. And ultimately, 312 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,200 I think we're seeing a certain massive shift in mindset from all of us around, 313 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,760 yes, of course, I'm going to choose a company if I have an option to, which has the environment in 314 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:58,280 mind, and also myself, my own health, well-being, whatever in mind, over one that does not. But 315 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:04,200 ultimately, especially in sort of the macroeconomic climate, which we still live in today, over the 316 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:09,240 last couple of years in particular, price and products, the performance of the products still 317 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:14,200 trumps. So if you can do the sustainability alongside as you have done exceedingly, it puts 318 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,400 you in a really unique position. But I think you've said luck a couple of times, which is fascinating 319 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,920 because given your esteemed sailing background and otherwise, I'm not sure I can put anything 320 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:30,200 of what you've achieved down to luck. I think it's opportunistic, asking the right questions, 321 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,760 I think, importantly, a lot of different companies, as you've seen, approach the same, 322 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,480 how do we get past Myla? How do we get past the carbon point, but have approached it from a very 323 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:45,880 different angle to perhaps you and one sales have? So I hear you, it's a humble thing. And I do believe 324 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:52,360 in luck, but I think that it's come out of what we've all seen to be a very sincere and lengthy, 325 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,080 expensive in time and expertise and otherwise process that you've gone through with your company 326 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,840 to try and do something really different. So for that, it's pretty incredible and really cool. 327 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,640 What is next for one sales? I mean, appreciate that just in some of the words that you've been 328 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:11,320 using that things haven't progressed in say 20 years or you've thought, hey, 40 is now not 329 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:18,040 brand new. So how are you in your mindset and your philosophy, still looking at progress, 330 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,520 making things stronger, lighter, high performance, more durable, because it doesn't stop, right? 331 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:31,000 No, it is an ever ending process. Before launching something new, there is a long process of 332 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,600 research in the beginning. Then as soon as the theoretical phase ends, you start doing the 333 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:43,160 prototypes, then you test the prototypes. There are a lot of laboratory tests that can simulate 334 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:49,160 the aging, the sun whatsoever. And they are getting better and better. They are pretty accurate, 335 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:56,840 but still the reality is always worse than the simulation. So the only real test at the end is 336 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,280 the use of the sales. And of course, by the time we are now starting to realize that the very first 337 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:08,200 sales that we did, so eight, 10 years after that there could be some weak point, there is something 338 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:15,720 we can do better. So through the years getting the results of the real life of the sales, we sort 339 00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:21,960 out the possible problems and we go forward. Actually, our 40, we did already three different 340 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,080 releases of the 40, always based on the same concept, but it's like a cooker. We are changing 341 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:33,640 the ingredients. So we are like the sophisticated chef. We are now going to launch our fourth release, 342 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:38,680 probably this summer, that the goal we are looking to achieve is the life of the sales. 343 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:44,600 So less sales, our customer will have to change, better it is. Maybe not for our budget, because 344 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:51,240 they will spend less. But at the end, what we are hoping is that as soon as people realize that our 345 00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:56,520 sales are lasting longer and you spend the same money, you spend less. We hope that this will 346 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,320 increase our market share. So we are not looking to sell more sales to the same customer, we are 347 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:07,400 looking to get more customers. That's the goal. And I'm really looking forward because our next 348 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:13,320 release by all the laboratory tests we did looks undestroyed and even better than the other ones 349 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:20,840 that are already good. So that's the goal, to continuously increase the ability of the sales 350 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:27,640 to hold the misuse. Because at the end, if we could oist the sale and go sailing in this range 351 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:34,600 of use all the time, will last much longer than being mistreated in the lockers of the boat or 352 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:40,600 working on it or in wherever. It's just so cool. It's the only thing I could think to say right 353 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,560 now because I think as you said, that sort of design iteration, that sort of production iteration, 354 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:51,320 the manufacturing iteration, the composition iteration is just so profound. And the smallest 355 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,040 of tweaks can have the most pronounced output in terms of what it is that you're trying to achieve 356 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:02,040 ultimately with that performance. So it's just so cool. The only thing I can ask, 357 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:08,840 Dede, given your background and your experience on the matter, for every ordinary sort of sailors, 358 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:16,120 blue water cruisers, what are your tips for looking after sales? You know, for sure, the way you take 359 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:24,280 care of your sales, when you're not sailing is store it properly. That means dry, possibly rinsed 360 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:30,760 by fresh water, so with no salt. But anyway, even if it's salt, avoid to leave it under the sun. 361 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:37,240 Because even if nowadays there is a lot of UV protection, the sun is very powerful, we know, 362 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:43,160 and is affecting in any case, maybe not the body of the sails, but maybe the perimeters, 363 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:48,120 the materials we are using for the finishing. So for sure, avoid to leave it under the sun 364 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:55,880 when not needed. Avoid mistreating it in terms of folding badly or even... It's funny because 365 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:03,160 sometimes people think that rolling the sail is the best way to keep it. That is true. Because 366 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:08,200 if you roll the sails and then you put on top of each other and the roll is squeezed, it becomes 367 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:15,080 better to... Or you may fold the roll, it is better to fold with bigger fold than doing that. So take 368 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:20,920 care of, for example, release the buttons. Don't leave the buttons under tension when you are not 369 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:26,200 using the sail for a long time. When you don't use the sails, most likely the leach lines that are 370 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:31,640 made by Dainima will shrink a bit. So next time you will use, probably there will be the need to 371 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:37,080 use the leach lines. But it's not the problem. It's normal. It's physical. The stability of the 372 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:43,800 sail is way bigger than of the lines. So they are stretching in a different way. Again, if it's 373 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:51,400 possible, don't fold the roll whatever and then store big piles of sails where the lower one will 374 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:57,880 be really squeezed. If we are talking about rolled sails, when you fold the roll, the sail is 375 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:04,440 really misused because you squeeze the roll and then you fold it. It's a really ugly thing you're 376 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:10,040 doing to the cloth. Okay, when it's needed, but when it's not needed, it's much better to unroll it 377 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:16,120 and fold it. Also, the other thing is don't let the sail flog long time in the wind. Okay, during 378 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:23,320 a tuck, okay, during a maneuver, but the flogging is anyway damaging any kind of sail. The flogging 379 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:31,240 can also come from a bad thing. You can see often sails with too much twist where the top part of 380 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:37,720 it is flapping all the time. That part is suffering. No way, regardless the material. 381 00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:43,240 I hear you. And I think it's always kind of a sorry sight, isn't it, to not see a sail just full as 382 00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:47,640 it's supposed to be being used for its purpose. And that's a pretty comprehensive lesson. I really 383 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:52,440 appreciate it because they're also not inexpensive things, sails. So being well looked after is a 384 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:58,120 pretty important point of keeping them absolutely optimum. De De, it's been an absolute pleasure 385 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,360 talking to you about one sail and what you've achieved so far. I'm really pleased that you could 386 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,920 join me for this conversation. And once they thank you and obviously all the best with your 387 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:12,840 iteration and tweaking, particularly of your 40 sails. Thank you very much. Thank you for 388 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,320 giving us the opportunity to explain what we are doing. It's been a pleasure for us. Thank you so 389 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:27,800 much. Thank you, De De. You've been listening to the Clean Sailors podcast. All relevant links 390 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:32,840 to the projects and people we talk to can be found with the podcast link. For all episodes or to get 391 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:38,040 in touch, just visit CleanSailors.com. We love to hear from you. We believe that great ideas 392 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:43,320 should be shared, which is why our podcast is free to appear on. So if you've got a project, idea, 393 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:49,240 or topic you think we should be discussing, get in touch. In the meantime, thank you for listening 394 00:39:49,240 --> 00:40:14,040 and see you for the next episode.