Welcome back to the Clean Sailors podcast. Let's talk about sea, marine, sailing and
keep it clean. I'm your host Holly, founder of Clean Sailors and a sailor myself with
a passion for the health of our mighty oceans. Through conversations with experts, innovators
and activists, all working towards improving the health of our seas, we're showcasing
the people and projects, changing the way things are done.
Sails like many things have a long history, maybe not as you and I would recognise them
today, but the premise of mounting materials, whether papyrus leaves or animal hide, in
order to catch the wind and propel ourselves through water, while sails started way back.
Originally, sailing wasn't the pleasure or the pastime we have today. It was born like
many things from necessity, fishing predominantly and then trade and so on. As such, the materials
and engineering of vessels and sails alike developed alongside the advent of more pleasurable
yachting as we know it, came much, much more recently, around the 17th century in fact with
the Duke of York. Towards the end of the clipper era, small working boats became popular and
the rise of sailing as pleasure for a few other than for the elitist of the elite arose.
It's a fascinating history, how we expanded from local, safer waters, sourcing food to
traversing through some of the toughest environments our planets have to offer, like oceans and
some of the most exquisitely balanced pressures and forces like in foiling. It is testament
to human ingenuity and engineering and not nearly as possible without sails.
Today I'm really excited to welcome a guest who's going to talk us through how he and
his business have been looking into modern engineering of sails. I'm really excited
to welcome Daniele de Luca of OneSales. Hello, Daniele.
Good morning.
It's good to speak with you. So, Denny, tell us a little bit about firstly you. What's
your relationship with OneSales and how did it come about?
I am one of the founders of OneSales, which had been founded 17 years ago in 2007. And
since then I have been also the CEO of it. So, it's how to say, it's my baby. I've been
growing from zero to now. Among the sale making networks we are the youngest, but we are proud
about being different and more creative maybe. The idea behind OneSales is that we have been
putting together many very expert sale makers around the world. We are now 52 in 40 countries
and we are really sharing the expertise of everybody in order to develop our products,
our service, our customer experience in the best way possible because everyone in the
group has a lot of experience and a lot of things to teach each other. It's very nice
to see the way we work is that we have set up since the very beginning a sharing system
through the cloud and it's unbelievable how everybody can contribute and make our, as
I said, product, service, whatever better every day.
That's incredible. Exceptional growth. I mean, 40 countries is not insignificant in the time
frame that you've been around.
Sale making is a very particular business because in most of the cases you become a sale maker
through your passion. There is not a school and university. You can't decide the only way
to become a sale maker is to make the experience starting from the boat most likely and then
going to work in a loft and growing from there. But for sure, the passion is the first drive.
And so it's been slightly difficult in the beginning to show other sale makers which
was our style, our philosophy. But then when they understood, we had the period where we have been
growing faster than what was supposed because they saw the idea behind one's sales and they
appreciated that.
That's incredible. And when you say about having the passion, I agree with you because
most of us will tinker with most things on our boats, even up to the engine and the electrics.
And obviously, aside from small patches, we do leave sales entirely to the professionals.
So it has got to be a passion combined with profession because it really is almost like
a dark art of magic. It's really quite exceptional to come up with not just the composite, the materials
these days used in sales for the variety of vessels that obviously you cater to, but the
extreme pressures and forces that are working on it alongside the design of the boat itself,
you know, the waiting and otherwise. It's just so detailed and incredibly delicate, if you like.
But to your point around passion, you're not just any sailor. So tell us a bit about your
experience in sailing itself and don't be humble.
My sailing experience is too long because I started when I was very young, six years old.
And actually, the only strange thing is that I didn't start from the optimist because I had an
older brother and so I started to sail with him on the flying junior in the late 60s, early 70s,
was a class very, very popular for young guys in Italy. And from there I sailed all the classical
laser for 20, for 70, flying Dutchman whatsoever, maxi yachts. It's too long the least to mention,
but the good thing is that I've been sailing two America's Cup, one Olympic Games as a sailor and
one as a coach. So with the wide experience, not only in terms of time, unfortunately, but also
in terms of variety of boats, I could have a good overall view on the different needs. Because as you
say, sailmaking is a job, is also an art that is a mix between science and personal feeling, let's say.
And so what I think I could give to the group is having a very large view, our industry, a large
experience and so drive the help where is needed in the right direction. Because as a group we are
producing sails of very, very different kind and size and whatsoever. And so the need is very
different as well for the same boat, the need for different areas are different. And this is where
I like usually to define our group as a local, because we are almost global, being in 40 countries,
but the design and in many cases also the production of the sails is made locally. Because I usually
mentioned the sample, the need of a sailor in the Solland is very different from the need of a sailor
in the Med. The habits are different. A day with 15 knots in the Solland is a light wind day where
they maybe think not to go because it's not enough wind. Where in the Med with 15 knots they start
thinking maybe it's too much, let's say home. So also the sails must reflect this different style.
And only with the local expertise, the real contact with the customer, we can achieve to deliver
the right sails to the right person. That's really fascinating. And I hadn't appreciated,
forgive my naivety, that you would get down to that level of bespokeness when it comes to sails.
Because I think often you imagine that you have a class of boats and there's a standard format for
the kind of sail that you would require. Tell us a little bit more then about how, I guess because
of your experience on the variety of boats that you have sailed, how have you seen the materials
change over the years in particular? As you say, that the sailmaking is coming from very
ancient. And it's funny because there are cycles where we are going back to something that was
done in the very beginning, but with different materials. And the new materials are allowing to
do things in a better way, lighter. But still there are things that are very hard to change.
The biggest example is the material for the gennaker, for the spinnaker, the dowel sails
material is remaining the same since almost one century. We are trying hard to change it,
but it's very hard to make something that has the same performance and the same reliability.
So on some areas there is very little changes, where in other there is a lot of development and
research. And nowadays the research has been until 10 years ago, let's say only the best
performance. Where speaking about performance in the sails, we need to look at 360. So it doesn't
only mean to be a sail that is stiff, it has to be light, it has to be durable. So the characteristics
needed by a sail are quite complicated. And I'm happy to say that about 10 years ago,
the mentality started also to think about sustainability that has never been a worry
until then. And we have been the first thinking about that and creating something new that is
also sustainable. So now it is even more complicated because we still have all the problems before.
So the performance I've been talking, plus we need to keep an eye or take care about the
sustainability, the end of life of the sails. So it is a really difficult task. Something that people
don't realize is that a sail is one of the items overall, not only in sailing, in any industry,
that has one of the biggest complications because, as I said, need to have a lot of
performance characteristics. But in the meantime, it's really misused. Nothing is misused like a
sail because it has the old bad environment you can imagine. So the wind, the salt, the mildew,
the sun, whatsoever, plus the sails, when they are hoisted, they live in their environment. But
then when we drop, we work on it, we fold, we throw away, sometimes for the need of the maneuvers,
we really misuse it. So it is the compromise between something that we really misuse,
but then when we use it, we ask the sails a very accurate performance. Whereas normally,
if I don't know anything you think about, if you have a very performing computer, you will be taking
care of using it properly. You will not throw, you will not work on it, whatever. I mean,
it's a strange thing that people never think about, but it is the characteristic that makes
sailmaking a very difficult job. It's fascinating though. And to hear you describe it like that,
you're right. I certainly would never have thought about it in that sense, where you are actively
screwing it, scrunching it, keeping it in a dark, damp environment for months of the year,
as well as obviously letting it fly and do its thing when you need it. So having that sort of
duplicity of design specification actually has got to make that process really tricky
to solve for both well and to keep its durability over time. So I mean, talking about that, and
you've mentioned sort of sustainability, and I would be remiss for not mentioning it given the
nature of this podcast, but why then a sail so hard to recycle? Just talk us through it.
Exactly for the reason I spoke before, considering that the sails must be able to
resist to the worst thing you can imagine. They have to be very, very strong, very reliable.
They have to be stiff. They have to be in the same time light. So you need to use sophisticated
materials. And at the end, the materials that has been using for a long period, let's talk about
the top performing sails, because we know that then there are there is a huge variety of kind of
sales. But talking about the top level sales at the end has been used, is still used the carbon,
is used aramid, are used the raising glues that must be super resistant to everything. But this
means that at the end of the life of a sales, these things are really difficult to destroy,
are difficult to reuse, are difficult to do whatever, because they have been created with
very specific characteristic and needs, where one of the most important needs is that they are
undestroyable. So when it's time to destroy, that's the point where the thing becomes critical.
And the solution for that is not easy. It is something we as one sales with our R&D have been
really looking for for a long time. And we also found the solution. We are proud of that. But
still, the reason why sales are normally very hard management waste is because they are created
with that purpose. You've hit the nail on the head. Not only is it just the environments that
they're built to withstand, but like you said, they're actually actively engineered to withstand
the misuse. So the whole point is you can't really break them down or destroy them very easily.
And I'm really looking forward to talking about what one sales have done differently
in a moment. But I think, for the last, say, four years about our project, Resale, which
we recognize that there's an end of life opportunity in the marine industry, whether it's
you know, GRP fiberglass hulls, whether it's sheets and lines, which are part of our network now.
And also we've got sales as well, recognizing that actually because of exactly what you said,
there is no formal recycling of sales anywhere in the world. And because of the variety, right?
The way I sell my boat, Dede, means that I've probably got a good 10, 15 years with my sale.
The way you sell yours, give it a week. You'd never have a consistent supply of the same kind of sales
anyway, to make something really useful out of them. At the end of the process, and like you said,
because of what they're made of and what they're made for, the process of actually stripping them
down is a highly intensive chemical process, which takes a lot of water, a lot of energy,
which in itself isn't particularly sustainable. And appreciating the intermediary solution
is really upcycling and reusing old sales because at least you keep them out of landfill
for a little bit longer, right? But also a very, very imperfect solution in the long term,
because what it means is you, for argument's sake, representing the salemaking industry,
carry on creating the sales in the same way. And then further down the line, we've got to find
relatively ad hoc, predominantly leisure consumer based opportunities to make something useful out
of them. But you've approached this slightly differently, well very differently in fact,
and you've approached it really early in the industry. How did you approach as one sales
the challenge with end of life? So the very first moment where I started thinking about
there is something wrong has been at the end of my last America's Cup that was in Valencia. I was
working as a sales coordinator and because we, as a team, we didn't get through the finals,
we had the brand new sales ready for racing that we didn't use, plus all the old sales, etc.
And so at the end, one of my job has been to store all the sales in two containers, very full,
packed up. And when I was closing these containers, and especially after the end of the Cup, when I
realized that the cycle was finished for those kind of boats and we're going to cut down on us,
whatever, I thought, imagine we were 14 teams, we were not one of the richest, and we closed
two containers full of old sales that nobody will never use. So it's a huge amount of things that are
probably are still there somewhere, because there is no way to, we are considering sailing,
environment-friendly sport, but are we sure it is true? Because if you imagine the waste we are
creating, and I'm talking only about the sales, because then there is much more, but my concentration
was on sales. So I thought, there should be something we can do better. And I started talking
with our engineering team saying, guys, we need to not only look at the performance, but we need
to look in parallel to see if we can do something better in terms of end of life. Of course, as you
mentioned, this is one of the, I'm talking about the top technology, but then there are all the
rest of the sales. So for sure, upcycling or recycling, many of the items are attached to the
sales is a good thing. It's for sure a good approach. And also there is, in some cases,
the possibility to reuse the old cloth to create some bags or sometimes somebody is creating some
dent or whatever. Yes, better than nothing, but still at the end, those items will go in the
landfill, but let's say better than nothing. The other thing is, as you say, is much better to
create sales that are lasting longer instead of having sales use and throw away. So again,
the durability of the sales as they are for their purpose, longer it is, better it is for the
environment, but still in any of these cases, there is an end of life. And then they become
critical waste. We sometimes collecting old sales from our customers, we have to pay to give to the
waste companies, but I don't know what they are going to do with that, because also burning
is difficult. In some cases, it's impossible. So this is where our approach to think about
sustainability started and was 16 years ago. And it took more than five years of research,
of tests, of attempt failures, also frustrating sometimes to sort out something that we achieved
at the end that is now really recyclable in the real sense of the term, in the sense that can be
milled, fused, creating pellets and recreate something. But I have to say that when we launched
this new technology that is called 40, it was 11 years ago. And I remember we made a press
conference announcing all the peculiarities of the material that is performing, is light,
is durable, etc. Plus we said as Lose your to a mission in the production already. So in the very
beginning of his life is already, let's say, sustainable, plus is recyclable at the end of
the life. And I remember that the most of the journalists was mostly Italian journalists.
They say, who cares about that? I won't say it's that perform. Already 11 years ago,
sustainability was not yet in the mentality. And I have to say that it's very different
from area to area. We really see that, for example, North Europe is much more sensible to this
than South Europe or other part of the world. But the real change in the mentality in our customers,
let's say in the market, has been done by the COVID. The real jump towards thinking about
sustainability we saw after the COVID, more and more customers that are interested on asking
why, how it's made. And also customers that I had some cases where for budget reason,
a customer decided to go for another technology. And the day after called me, said, I couldn't
sleep this night. I felt guilty. So let's go for the sustainable technology, even if it's
likely more expensive. That is a good sign in the growing of the mentality towards sustainable
technology. It is a good sign. But to your point, I don't think you can have, you wouldn't purchase
sustainable sales that were more expensive unless you also had the performance, right? I think for
sustainability is an incredibly important factor, as long as it doesn't compromise the performance
so much. You wouldn't buy a sale which is 10 kilograms, 20 kilograms heavier, and had a few
extra holes in it and couldn't quite maybe flex enough to be sailing up windows as close as you
used to, but it was sustainable. And I think that's the biggest opportunity and also perhaps the most
exciting and difficult sort of design specifications to solve is how you manage all of that and
without it being a compromise. Because ultimately, your business, like most businesses, you know,
you've got a product, you've got a USP, which is high performance and exceptional quality sales,
at a price point. And there is a degree of flexibility in that appreciate as long as you're
adding extra value. And of course, it could be moral value, ethical value, perceptional value,
as long as it's not a complete trade off, right? And that really is the balance and the skill to get
right. The task to maintain or even increase the performance, plus having the sustainability has
been a really tough task. And I have to say that we have been also lucky by some point of view,
because in the beginning, the request was, okay, let's develop something new, keeping an eye on
sustainability, but we cannot forget, actually, the first goal is to be able to perform better
than what we have now to be also in the market by the price point of view. You need to combine all
the various pieces of the puzzle, just adding one more piece at the puzzle. But the other one must
be the same. So the goal has been to increase. And there is a lot of research also for other
areas. And actually, the key of our research has been a material that is an ultra high weight
molecular polyethylene that has been developed by a Japanese company. And the development of it was
for very different purposes, for bulletproof jackets, for artificial bones. So it was totally
away from sailing. And the key factor has been that our main engineer that is engineer Percarlo
Malta, that is the inventor of our technology, found this material and understood that that
could be the key that will close the puzzle. And actually, it was true. That material is as
incredible, exceptional performances. But on the other hand, consider that it is used to do the
artificial bones. This means that this material that is very difficult to attack from chemical
agents from anything so much that also the glues are not sticking on it. So we had to develop a
different way to put together all the components of the sail. And actually, our sails, our 14
membranes are made not by glue or by chemical reaction, but are made by the fusion. So it's a
physical reaction to fusion of the materials that in a very peculiar process, the engineer Malta has
been inventing. We fuse the sail, all the components, and we put all together by fusing. And this has
been the other key factor of sorting out that this way we can have all the different parts of the
sail, so the main structure made with this ultra high weight molecular polyethylene. Plus the external
surfaces, the abrasion protection, the UV protection, the secondary load holding, etc. They are all
coming from the same original molecular, differently treated. That is the same as PE. So it's the same
as the plastic bottles at the end, just treated differently. And this is the reason why at the
end of the life of our sails, we can mill, fuse, create pellets, and redo something. We did really
the full cycle, because everything I'm saying, but I like to underline it, everything I'm saying,
and everything we are declaring is officially certified following the ISO rules. So the standard
official certified rules and the certified by third party, because as I said, where in the past
environmental sustainability was not a problem now is in the mouth of everybody. Everybody is trying
to tell something about sustainability. And I'm starting to see not only in said making, but
in the industry generally, a lot of people that is greenwashing, we have been following only the
official path and only the certification can really demonstrate that what you are telling,
what you are declaring is true. And on top of that, and I go back to the original argument,
we wanted to really demonstrate the full cycle. And we did it with the last Vendée Globe, we made
the sales for a team that was an English team, PPR team, Medallia. The sales have been successfully
doing the regatta around the world. And by Pips' declaration, she said, are so good that I could
do one more lap around the world without problems. They are so durable. But still, the purpose of
this operation has been to demonstrate that are recyclable. So we took the sale, we chopped all
the items, the rings, the leach lines, whatever, around the sales, we took the body of it, we went
into a standard recycling industry where they are recycling the plastic bottles, we put in the sales,
we got the pellets, with those pellets, we created the pencils, sunglasses, headboards,
button rockets. So we created other items. So it is proved that this is real and it's possible to do
without any special, because the other thing is you can create something that is recyclable.
But if recycling costs in terms of water, of energy, or whatever, more than what you save,
again, you are not doing something helping the environment. So there was the need that it goes
into the standard process, what is normal and we did it. So the material and the only way we could
achieve it is to have the same original molecular, because when you fuse and you mix everything,
you go back to the original. I know it is a bit complicated concept, but I hope I could explain
in a very basic way. You explained it perfectly, Dedy. And I think the first year is such an
incredible achievement and to have done it arguably so early on in comparison to perhaps
an industry which is continuing to, in all honesty, selects the opportunity around, not just end of
life, but actually looking product and material design differently. So by using heat and pressure
rather than a chemical one, as you so pointed out, you're more readily enable to reconstitute the
materials into something different. So you're not spending the time, or like you said, the chemicals
in the water and trying to pull apart a variety of different laminates and glues, importantly,
that's always the trickiest part is the glue. You're not spending time pulling all of that
to pieces in an exceptionally high energy way, rather you already have deconstructed sale,
in a sense. It's just sale. So you just apply a different kind of heat and pressure to reduce it
into another material substance that you can reuse as something else, as you said. And the
Pippa Hare example was really fantastic. And I remember that quote around her being ready to
go around again. I mean, it's just phenomenal. We are talking, as you'll well know, about one of the
most formidable environments on the planet, the Vendee Globe in particular, not least because
it's a race, right? You're doing something not just in a really high intensity, high winds,
UV, saltwater, the lot, but you're doing it as fast as you possibly can. So the torsion and the
pressure and the forces that you're putting those cells under are pretty unparalleled.
What I'm really interested in today is the fact that it's possible. And it's possible if you ask
the right question. And what I'm really intrigued to know from you as sort of a co-founder and also
as a CEO, what did you ask? What was the premise with which you went into your forte, forte sales
with differently? Was it just create another sale better, stronger? Was it lighter? What was it that
you wanted to create that the outcome was something that was actually fully recyclable by all of the
modern standards? How did you think differently going into that specific process? You know,
it was the combination of the story of the containers I've been talking about and also the
fact that we were in 2008, 2009, that period, most of the sales of any brand of any technology,
again, talking about the high level, top level sales, were made with mylar and with the carbon
or aromatic fibers. Almost every filmmaker made differently whatsoever, but it was a constant.
That was a super smart invention made in the 90s. So it was more than 20 years that there was no
development. And these materials were performing well, but they had some weaknesses. Apart from
the sustainability, we know that carbon is an exceptional material, but it's fragile. And so
it was breaking by the time by the flaking again. If you laminate it into a rigid hull,
it has no problem, it can last forever. But having the sales, the need of being flexible,
carbon is not the ideal material because when you glue it, it becomes brittle. The mylar was
suffering a lot UV and by the time it was becoming again brittle, it was opening small windows.
Being transparent, it was not protecting the glue inside. So the glue was at a certain point
crystallizing and we had the delamination problem. So it was a very good result for the 90s. But in
the 2010, it was not a good material. And they said, how is it possible that after 20 years,
we are still building the sales with the same materials that we know had problems?
And this has been the starting point. So we need to change, find something different from the carbon.
We need to find something different from mine. And this is where our patent went. And there has
been other solutions around in the market going into that direction. And actually nowadays,
we see the mylar and the sales based on mylar are almost disappearing because the whole market has
gone into that direction. As I said, by chance, because we have been lucky and also because
we have been thinking about that, this is what we are proud of, the solution we found is also
sustainable. But I like to underline, as you said before, that the first goal has been to
achieve the performance to overtake the performance of the mylar and the carbon in terms of stability,
shape holding, lightness, durability, and then sustainability. Otherwise, you don't have a business.
Exactly. I think that's an important thing. And actually, it's a really complicated area. And I
appreciate that by virtue of, say, clean sailors, it's easy to come at it from an environmental
perspective. That's in some ways the challenge. But as a business person myself, you have to
understand that you create a product that is deemed valuable to a market enough that you can
create income and revenue to create more products, create more value to a bigger market. And ultimately,
I think we're seeing a certain massive shift in mindset from all of us around,
yes, of course, I'm going to choose a company if I have an option to, which has the environment in
mind, and also myself, my own health, well-being, whatever in mind, over one that does not. But
ultimately, especially in sort of the macroeconomic climate, which we still live in today, over the
last couple of years in particular, price and products, the performance of the products still
trumps. So if you can do the sustainability alongside as you have done exceedingly, it puts
you in a really unique position. But I think you've said luck a couple of times, which is fascinating
because given your esteemed sailing background and otherwise, I'm not sure I can put anything
of what you've achieved down to luck. I think it's opportunistic, asking the right questions,
I think, importantly, a lot of different companies, as you've seen, approach the same,
how do we get past Myla? How do we get past the carbon point, but have approached it from a very
different angle to perhaps you and one sales have? So I hear you, it's a humble thing. And I do believe
in luck, but I think that it's come out of what we've all seen to be a very sincere and lengthy,
expensive in time and expertise and otherwise process that you've gone through with your company
to try and do something really different. So for that, it's pretty incredible and really cool.
What is next for one sales? I mean, appreciate that just in some of the words that you've been
using that things haven't progressed in say 20 years or you've thought, hey, 40 is now not
brand new. So how are you in your mindset and your philosophy, still looking at progress,
making things stronger, lighter, high performance, more durable, because it doesn't stop, right?
No, it is an ever ending process. Before launching something new, there is a long process of
research in the beginning. Then as soon as the theoretical phase ends, you start doing the
prototypes, then you test the prototypes. There are a lot of laboratory tests that can simulate
the aging, the sun whatsoever. And they are getting better and better. They are pretty accurate,
but still the reality is always worse than the simulation. So the only real test at the end is
the use of the sales. And of course, by the time we are now starting to realize that the very first
sales that we did, so eight, 10 years after that there could be some weak point, there is something
we can do better. So through the years getting the results of the real life of the sales, we sort
out the possible problems and we go forward. Actually, our 40, we did already three different
releases of the 40, always based on the same concept, but it's like a cooker. We are changing
the ingredients. So we are like the sophisticated chef. We are now going to launch our fourth release,
probably this summer, that the goal we are looking to achieve is the life of the sales.
So less sales, our customer will have to change, better it is. Maybe not for our budget, because
they will spend less. But at the end, what we are hoping is that as soon as people realize that our
sales are lasting longer and you spend the same money, you spend less. We hope that this will
increase our market share. So we are not looking to sell more sales to the same customer, we are
looking to get more customers. That's the goal. And I'm really looking forward because our next
release by all the laboratory tests we did looks undestroyed and even better than the other ones
that are already good. So that's the goal, to continuously increase the ability of the sales
to hold the misuse. Because at the end, if we could oist the sale and go sailing in this range
of use all the time, will last much longer than being mistreated in the lockers of the boat or
working on it or in wherever. It's just so cool. It's the only thing I could think to say right
now because I think as you said, that sort of design iteration, that sort of production iteration,
the manufacturing iteration, the composition iteration is just so profound. And the smallest
of tweaks can have the most pronounced output in terms of what it is that you're trying to achieve
ultimately with that performance. So it's just so cool. The only thing I can ask,
Dede, given your background and your experience on the matter, for every ordinary sort of sailors,
blue water cruisers, what are your tips for looking after sales? You know, for sure, the way you take
care of your sales, when you're not sailing is store it properly. That means dry, possibly rinsed
by fresh water, so with no salt. But anyway, even if it's salt, avoid to leave it under the sun.
Because even if nowadays there is a lot of UV protection, the sun is very powerful, we know,
and is affecting in any case, maybe not the body of the sails, but maybe the perimeters,
the materials we are using for the finishing. So for sure, avoid to leave it under the sun
when not needed. Avoid mistreating it in terms of folding badly or even... It's funny because
sometimes people think that rolling the sail is the best way to keep it. That is true. Because
if you roll the sails and then you put on top of each other and the roll is squeezed, it becomes
better to... Or you may fold the roll, it is better to fold with bigger fold than doing that. So take
care of, for example, release the buttons. Don't leave the buttons under tension when you are not
using the sail for a long time. When you don't use the sails, most likely the leach lines that are
made by Dainima will shrink a bit. So next time you will use, probably there will be the need to
use the leach lines. But it's not the problem. It's normal. It's physical. The stability of the
sail is way bigger than of the lines. So they are stretching in a different way. Again, if it's
possible, don't fold the roll whatever and then store big piles of sails where the lower one will
be really squeezed. If we are talking about rolled sails, when you fold the roll, the sail is
really misused because you squeeze the roll and then you fold it. It's a really ugly thing you're
doing to the cloth. Okay, when it's needed, but when it's not needed, it's much better to unroll it
and fold it. Also, the other thing is don't let the sail flog long time in the wind. Okay, during
a tuck, okay, during a maneuver, but the flogging is anyway damaging any kind of sail. The flogging
can also come from a bad thing. You can see often sails with too much twist where the top part of
it is flapping all the time. That part is suffering. No way, regardless the material.
I hear you. And I think it's always kind of a sorry sight, isn't it, to not see a sail just full as
it's supposed to be being used for its purpose. And that's a pretty comprehensive lesson. I really
appreciate it because they're also not inexpensive things, sails. So being well looked after is a
pretty important point of keeping them absolutely optimum. De De, it's been an absolute pleasure
talking to you about one sail and what you've achieved so far. I'm really pleased that you could
join me for this conversation. And once they thank you and obviously all the best with your
iteration and tweaking, particularly of your 40 sails. Thank you very much. Thank you for
giving us the opportunity to explain what we are doing. It's been a pleasure for us. Thank you so
much. Thank you, De De. You've been listening to the Clean Sailors podcast. All relevant links
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