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Joining us today I have the honor and privilege of speaking with Dr. Eric Monsager.

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Eric obtained his bachelor's degree in humanities from St. Thomas Theological Seminary in Denver

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and his master's degree in counseling from the University of Arizona.

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He completed his doctorate in depth psychology specializing in the psychology of religion

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at the Catholic University in Leuven, Belgium.

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Dr. Monsager completed the America's Institute of Adlerian Studies program for professionals

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and is a certified classical Adlerian depth psychotherapist from the Adlerian Institute

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of Northwestern Washington.

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Eric is also certified as a training analyst for the classical Adlerian depth psychotherapist

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institute.

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Eric presents at national and international venues.

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He is a past president of the North American Society of Adlerian Psychology and he is in

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a diplomat of Adlerian psychology.

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His numerous publications include journal articles, books and book chapters, training

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manuals and monographs.

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He has been the guest editor of the Journal of Individual Psychology for four special

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issues including spirituality, LGBT affirmation, social justice and the classical Adlerian

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depth psychotherapy institute and has written extensively on their critical collaboration

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between psychology and spirituality.

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I have asked Dr. Eric Monsager here today to talk with us about Adlerian theory, about

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Adler and about himself.

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So Eric thank you for joining us today.

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A pleasure Daniel.

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I've been looking forward to it.

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I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

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I discussed a little bit with you earlier but I recently discovered Adler and I've

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read a couple of his works and I want to know more and I kind of want to introduce him to

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the audience.

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But before we get into that can you kind of give us your background and tell us a little

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bit about who you are?

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Sure.

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Good job.

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You did a good job on the overview.

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I guess I still have interest to me is my spirituality focus on things.

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I studied to be a Catholic priest as you noted and it was there that I ran into Adler for

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the first time.

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I was doing an internship during the summer in Wyoming, in Torrington Wyoming in a little

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orphanage that had just taken on the name of Children's Home actually, St. Joseph's

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Children's Home.

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It was being run by Mickey Gamble, a really creative man who had himself been introduced

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to Adler through the book Children the Challenge, which is still a classic and has been kind

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of the core of a whole lot of parenting programs, positive discipline, active discipline as

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a video based program.

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There's a lot of programs that are spun off of this book and its theory.

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It was written by Dreikers, whom I'll talk about a little bit later, but being there

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at the internship and learning this idea of helping the kids by cooperation and encouragement

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was really a thrill for me.

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So much so that, I guess I shouldn't blame the book, but that was my senior year at college

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and I decided to run for my wife, if you don't mind me being a little personal there.

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I thought I heard a voice that said, at any rate, I left the studies and went to the University

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of Arizona where I had the pleasure of meeting Oscar Christiansen, who was the man who had

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taught Mickey Gamble in a summer program about Adler and about Children's Challenge.

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So I felt I'd come like full circle and did my master's there under Chris and his colleague

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Betty Newland and was introduced to Robert Powers and Jane Griffith, who ran the America's

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Institute for Individual Psychology.

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I just couldn't get enough of Adler at that time.

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I was so touched that there was a way, I hadn't abandoned altogether the idea of ministry

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and this idea of interacting with people on a socially focused basis.

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As I'll say later, one of the principles Adler helped us understand was the idea of

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Gemeinschafts, community, gefühl, a feeling, a feeling of being in community with people

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as kind of the measure of mental health.

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I thought that had been altogether missing in my studies.

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Maybe I overlooked it, I don't know, but I was thrilled to do my master's and go to work

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in child protection and a small private practice and the like.

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And then I got a hankering to complete my studies with a doctorate and already at the

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seminary I'd been introduced to the theology of a Catholic theologian from Switzerland,

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here where I live, now recently deceased just half a year ago or so, Hans Kung was his name.

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He was an expert in humanistic and ecumenical theologies.

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And when I started reading him already in the seminary, it didn't quite make sense to

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me then until I got out and studied Adler and then it was like, oh, I get it, I get

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what he's talking about now, cooperating and also encouraging people and helping them understand

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a larger world and how we all interact and the more we cooperatively interact, everybody

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benefits from it.

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So I wanted then to do a dissertation, something, a deep dive into what I considered Adler and

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Kung's parallels, well, it grew and it ended up being a general psychological critique

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of Kung's theology where I found roots of Freud and Jung and Adler there, all three

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of which I believe as much as I've seen in other theologians, he grasped the core of

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each of them and dealt with them respectfully.

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And so that was my time in Belgium.

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My first wife, who has since passed away, and I were in Europe with her two young kids

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at the time.

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And so I was able to study in Louvre.

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But I also was doing work with the American military at the time, drugs and alcohol.

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So from child protection to drugs and alcohol and adolescent work and family work, I just

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kind of grew in this interest always with Adler and at my elbow, so to speak, trying

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to figure out how to work with people and I'm thrilled whenever I have a chance to talk

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about it.

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Do you have a question, a specific question, or shall I roll on a little bit?

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Yeah, just kind of a side question.

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What is it that, so you went to training to become a Catholic priest, and then that's

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where you kind of found Adler and you got your interest switched and you ran for your

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wife, right?

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What was your interest in becoming a priest?

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What was your drive for that?

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Yeah.

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Well, my mom was Irish Catholic and my dad a convert because he'd fallen in love with

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his Irish Catholic from mainline Lutheran, which was very strict in their beliefs.

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So I think just between the two of them, the idea of a pretty rigid religious framework

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came to make sense to me.

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And I'll talk a little bit about lifestyle, is Adler's term for the personality.

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It's a euphemism because we style our own life, is Adler's point, and it's not imposed

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on us by nature or nurture.

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It is something we creatively grow in by means of our nature and our nurture.

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So my mom and dad gave a pretty solid framework for us.

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I'm one of six kids, as my testimony is from a Catholic family.

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I'm the fifth of six, actually, and my older brother was the first one to attempt the seminary.

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He said, that would have left the dentist or the doctor to me.

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I don't know.

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But anyway, he didn't go on with his studies either.

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And at the time, so there was kind of a gap that I thought, well, I can do that thing.

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And I mean, in my young life, I had been involved in the Catholic youth groups and the like.

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So the idea of ministry or being with young people and talking about values and care for

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one another, I think that was a basis.

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And then when you learn about Adler, I mean, many people are religious and love Adler,

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and many people are a-religious and love Adler because he has a value structure that is not

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hidden nor is it declared as the correct values.

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It's just that it's concerned for humanity.

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And so that internship that I talked about at St. Joseph's was really a point of change

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for me because I saw I could minister in a sense.

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I could be caring and give to people without the strictures of the church, which also included

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celibacy, which was an issue.

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But until I met Kuhn, kind of a restrictive theology for me, no objection.

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That's yeah, I'm not criticizing.

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I'm just saying for me, the transition over to Adler made all the sense in the world.

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I wasn't quite sure how I was going to do it.

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My master's thesis, in fact, was an original study about Catholic priests and their self-actualization

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by Schostrom's personal orientation inventory.

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Because I thought I could find the lifestyle, the personality type that could make a good,

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happy priest.

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That's what I was after.

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And I failed at that, but I found out a lot of other information.

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And that is that at least in this rather large population that I was allowed to draw from,

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from the local bishops I was involved with, said that all the priests, whether actualized

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or not actualized, fell in a broadband of what Adlerians would call the need to be right,

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broadband category, the need to be superior or the need to be good.

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And there are others, there's rebels and other things like that.

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And the priests distribute all the way across it, but they're clustered in this area.

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That was pretty interesting to me.

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I've learned much more about that and how I would work with it now.

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I have worked in fact with priests and nuns, but that's not my specialty any longer.

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It's really family therapy and adolescents were struggling to become adults, which is

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tough for a lot of kids.

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Yeah.

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I think probably especially today.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Yes.

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Please continue.

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So what came after that?

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I think, I mean, my first wife and I, we lived in Arizona, we'd both grown up in Arizona.

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We moved to Germany, as I said, I went to school in Belgium.

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We came back to America and she became ill.

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She passed away actually after the plans were made to move over here.

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The kids were out of the house.

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So I came over here and began work with my wife who had started just, she became my wife.

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She started a family counseling services.

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And then I was picked up by Webster University to teach with them because in the past I had

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been at North Dakota universities.

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That's a little complicated affair.

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North Dakota University and St. John's Seminary.

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So I had actually got to teach.

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I was a professor or instructor and the head of their psychological services at St. John's

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and Camarillo, California.

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Anyway, so we got all over here.

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We got to open up finally and do the work with depth psychotherapy.

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So I had finished my master's and that allowed me to do psychotherapy counseling.

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And I'd done in the institutes, the Edelman Institute, the American Institute.

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So I had kind of my credentials, if you'll sit that way.

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And then I was introduced to classical Edelman in depth psychotherapy, which had become my

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love.

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And what I wanted to talk about and I think you first ran across my name.

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Because it seems to me a completion and a deepening of Adler.

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Because it really goes after Adler and what he was trying to do with his understanding

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of bettering our world.

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So when we came over here, we opened up our little family counseling and right away an

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institute beside it to do the training to help Henry Stein, who is the founder of CADP,

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to help continue the distance training.

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My wife and I, Jane now, my second wife, and I both trained with Henry for a number of

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years and got our certificates.

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And then I went on to get my training analyst piece.

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So now I help train people who are interested, that is, counselors who are already involved

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in the field who want to add an Adlerian specialty to their, and a depth version of it, a psychodynamic

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version of, into their practice.

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Okay.

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That's really neat.

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You mentioned how Adler and the depth psychology training gets at the heart of what he was

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trying to do, which is to help the human family.

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And one of the books that I read in preparation for this was What Life Should Mean to You.

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And the dedication in that book is, he says, this book is dedicated to the human family

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in the hope that its members may learn from these pages to understand themselves better.

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And I just thought that was, that's just beautiful and succinct.

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So maybe can you kind of talk a little bit about that?

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Yeah, yeah, I'd love to do that.

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I'll first give what, if anybody knows Adler at all, and few of those probably do, but

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that's okay, I'm over here.

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But they will have heard this first series of things I'm going to share with you.

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And then I'd like to contrast it with the psychodynamic approach of the classical Adlerians,

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okay, and explain that a little bit.

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Because like other dynamic schools, especially Freud's and psychoanalysis, there are several

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schools within it.

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We also have that phenomenon.

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But what probably characterizes Adler's approach most popularly is birth order, that he had

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an early understanding of how a family constellates as if it were, could be seen into a certain

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picture or something like that, the way that they interact with one another as the stars

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in the sky would be.

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That first born children who are followed quickly by a second born tend to have certain

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characteristics, and then the second born follower has certain characteristics.

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I think it's less important, although I'll be happy to share those kind of details.

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He had described quite accurately what typically happens to a first born, second born, third

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and fourth.

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That would be first, second, with, pardon me, a third, which makes the second a middle

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child, the pressures of a cute little baby and a competent big sibling.

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Also though the only child, that he was concerned about because they didn't have peers readily

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available as other sibling group would.

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So he learned to see a typical pattern in these people.

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Never have we been taught to impose this on ones, but it gives us a first ballpark if

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we find problems going on to see, do they fit the mold, so to speak, or have they rejected

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the mold?

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Either of those are quite legitimate, and it serves as a beginning point to say Adler's

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individual psychology was always looking for the individuality in the person, not the way

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they conformed to a type, as a matter of fact.

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So there's birth order and consolation is part of it.

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Lifestyle I have already mentioned, because Adler saw us as both the artist and the artwork

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of our personalities.

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And a lot follows from that, that our problems in life are, of course there are exogenous

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outside factors such as trauma, which I'll talk a bit about, that form certain, or at

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least influence certain ways we look at the world.

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But Adler would say in the end they're influences, they're not determinations.

230
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So this idea of a lifestyle, which is impacted by the birth order I just mentioned, it's

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impacted by our physical nature, it's impacted by the environment of our family, a famous

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saying we use, a familiar saying to us is every child alters the family by entering

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it.

234
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So no child has the same family constellation, everyone is, you know, looking around something.

235
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It's very interesting to see that and can account well for why you have such disparate

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personalities in a family raised by the same parents.

237
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And then early recollections is a technique that is very commonly attached to Alfred Adler.

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And yeah.

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Yeah, I was reading, I don't know if you've heard of Dr. Nancy McWilliams, but I was reading

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one of her books.

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And she said in there, we can often tell, I'm paraphrasing here of course, but like

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we can often tell a lot by simply asking for first memories.

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And she kind of just lifted at that.

244
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And I always thought it was interesting.

245
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And then I found out it came from Adler.

246
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So yeah, I would like to hear some about that too.

247
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That would be another great interview.

248
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Very sharp in the psychodynamic and very humanistic in her approach to things.

249
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But the idea of the early recollection is that thousands of things happen to us, you

250
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,360
know, in a lifetime.

251
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And even in our childhood, you could probably count them in the hundreds or tens of hundreds,

252
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if not thousands of incidents that take place.

253
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But we tend to hold on to only a couple hands full of them, maybe a dozen early recollections

254
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before the age of five.

255
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Some people can't remember anything before the age of five that has its own implications.

256
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But generally we look for around the age of five because Adler believed that once the

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implicit stage of our childhood was over, around two and a half or three, and the brain

258
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ripened so to speak and the amygdala already online starts cooperating.

259
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Pardon me, the emotional center starts with the hippocampus.

260
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The hippocampus helps us make thoughts and memories and direct these kind of things.

261
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Once it crystallizes, we have the job in front of us as little humans to figure out how does

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life work?

263
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Big question mark.

264
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And somewhere in the ensuing years, between three to five years old, we figure out, ah,

265
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this is how life works.

266
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And we're not scientific at the time.

267
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We don't stop to compare it or anything like that.

268
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We see it in front of us and our siblings and our parents and the like.

269
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And we just determine that this is how I fit into it.

270
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Adler called it like coming into a play in a third act and trying to figure out the ending

271
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before you get there.

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How we often feel about it.

273
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So anyway, this idea in childhood is that we organize our lives in a way to make ourselves

274
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fit in and to compensate for what we feel are a negative standing in the world or a

275
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feeling of inferiority, he called it, or a feeling of insecurity, we generally call it

276
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today.

277
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Or apropos in the literature is the idea of vulnerability, perfectly right term for the

278
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inferiority feelings that Alfred Adler talked about.

279
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So the idea here is that, I'm trying to pull together some of these concepts of Adler,

280
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that the inferior feeling spawns from it very naturally a compensatory movement to overcome

281
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,240
that feeling.

282
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So Adler was always very clear that inferiority feelings is a blessing of some sort.

283
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He would say it was a God given blessing, it's a blessing for humanity because we're

284
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always trying to overcome that and out of that has come the wheel and society and family

285
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structures and all sorts of things like that that do that.

286
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And I wonder, that might be enough of those things.

287
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The early recollection was the idea that this is how I put my life together early on and

288
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then once I figured out, Daniel, we have a sense that we promptly forget it or consign

289
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,440
it to what we would call the unconscious.

290
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Some Adlerians don't adhere to that, certainly in the Freudian sense, but the idea that it

291
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:23,040
becomes kind of automatic rather than consciously graspable or even retainable, we just operate

292
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,960
automatically on these kind of things.

293
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:30,240
That is roughly with ideas of how the brain develops neural nets and the like.

294
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,600
I don't want to go too much into parallels that way.

295
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:41,560
And the style of life, so talking about early recollections, perhaps their first memories

296
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:48,200
around four or five, didn't he also talk about the style of life is usually kind of set around

297
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four or five years old?

298
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He called that the prototype.

299
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That's what I'm saying about a young child figuring it out in a sense.

300
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Perhaps an aha moment in their little lives that they just feel more confident they're

301
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:06,920
going to school now, they know who their friends are, etc.

302
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,760
But it doesn't get reviewed again.

303
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:16,580
And so with all the little conclusions they have made, I'm a big brother or a little one,

304
00:24:16,580 --> 00:24:23,520
I'm smart or I'm not, I get praised for this and I get slapped for that or scolded, etc.

305
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,480
All of that becomes the little rules of my life that just become repetitious.

306
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,400
And they are expressed in these early memories, we would say.

307
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,640
The early memory that we think back on is not so much actually about our childhood but

308
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,680
about our current situation as we have seen it for the last number of years since we were

309
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,080
four or five years old and not reviewed it.

310
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:51,260
And these are the things, these patterned consistencies of trying to overcome our inferiorities

311
00:24:51,260 --> 00:25:00,320
that subject us to praise and glory but also all the deepest pains in our lives.

312
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:08,120
And so from that point it becomes the depth work that I'm so interested in because from

313
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,320
what I've just described you can do a lot of family work and help people understand

314
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:19,780
how they fit together and you can teach them democratic tools of cooperation and respect

315
00:25:19,780 --> 00:25:26,920
and the like and get very well functioning families out of which come pretty healthy

316
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,620
kids into young adults.

317
00:25:29,620 --> 00:25:35,220
But none of us get through unscathed and we all have made in our childhood some mistakes

318
00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:37,800
about the way the world works.

319
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:46,240
There are often, Adler pointed out, three primary deficits very common in life that

320
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:54,080
twist a normal lifestyle into a compensatory one that you will recognize.

321
00:25:54,080 --> 00:26:04,120
One is from physical disability of sorts, different abling and how that burdens a child

322
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:13,480
more heavily than the normal child, pardon me, the non-compromised little bodies that

323
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,680
come in here.

324
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:23,400
And they have to somehow learn whatever the impairment is to walk or to talk or to see

325
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,400
or to hear better.

326
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:30,560
They have to put a lot of effort in that which skews understandably the balance of the other

327
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,160
skills that are developing.

328
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,760
So what he called organ inferiorities is one.

329
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:42,780
But then being neglected and or abused and that kind of spectrum is one that really creates

330
00:26:42,780 --> 00:26:49,120
a deficit in children so that I not only feel less than in my abilities but I don't feel

331
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:50,120
quite so loved.

332
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:55,360
So there is that feeling and now I have got to compensate for that in some way or another.

333
00:26:55,360 --> 00:27:00,440
The third one and it is most rampant today and I think it was most prescient of Adler

334
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:06,280
is the pampered child where things are done for the child that the child can do for the

335
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,680
child's self on a regular basis.

336
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,280
It's all right to help the kid now and then and always good to teach them and train them

337
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,480
to do for themselves.

338
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:22,240
But the unfortunate sense of worth that a parent gets by doing for their child nowadays

339
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,960
leaves the children feeling less confident in themselves and the parents more nervous

340
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,720
about showing a good child to the world.

341
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,920
And so those are the common mistakes that happen in our lives.

342
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:40,160
And when those are grown up from four years old to 40 without having been reviewed you

343
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:47,800
might see a disaster of a marriage, you know, divorce or several of them or broken relationships

344
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:55,040
or inability to maintain a job or criminal activity, you know, all these things.

345
00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:04,560
Adler helped us understand is from the lifestyle that says I have to overcome my inferiorities

346
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,920
in this direction because that's the way the world has put it to me.

347
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:16,800
And so understanding those mistaken beliefs and trying to repair them and straighten them

348
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:23,120
out and put them in the direction of the common good is the stuff of most Adlerian counseling.

349
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:27,800
And that's the stuff of most like Adlerian depth psychology?

350
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,040
Depth goes a little bit more on that.

351
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,280
I would say if you're ready for that, I'll jump.

352
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:40,680
Well, first I wanted to I forget which book it was, but I believe that Adler said that

353
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:50,160
he's kind of the first one to talk about the Oregon inferiority and to like name that because

354
00:28:50,160 --> 00:29:00,480
of this, their direction in life is going to need to have some adjustments made.

355
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:06,160
Was he also did he also is he the first one that really kind of talked about whether like

356
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,560
neglect or being pampered, how to play in all of this too?

357
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,680
I think he certainly contributed early on.

358
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:20,080
But I mean, there's a lot of good work done in the areas of even foundling homes, as they

359
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:25,000
called him and the like, you know, and the churches themselves were doing the best they

360
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,000
could with that.

361
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:32,760
The history of psychopathology finds Adler about midway through it, I think a couple

362
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,440
of years or a couple of about 100 years before him.

363
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,400
And we're about 100 years after him right now.

364
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,320
So, OK, OK, we're ready.

365
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,320
Yeah.

366
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:53,640
So the mainstream, I'll call it the mainstream Adlerian approach today is psychoeducational

367
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,680
and and directly counseling.

368
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:05,480
So by psychoeducation, we mean give people what is missing educationally in regard to

369
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,080
family structures or parenting issues and the like.

370
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,680
And they can do for themselves, just gear them up and the goodwill person will go in

371
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,320
the right direction.

372
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:22,840
Counseling takes another step and says the given situation, there's something out of

373
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:23,840
kilter.

374
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,720
This is not an Adlerian would look at it.

375
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:31,120
So let's fix a given situation, retool them a bit and let them go and they will they will

376
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,040
do fine until there's another issue and they can come back and get a little bit more.

377
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:40,480
But it's not it's not an ongoing therapeutic endeavor.

378
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:49,000
And the common mainstream Adlerian is very much along the lines of CBT.

379
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:55,560
We like to remind people that Aaron Beck, he didn't study direct with Adler, but he

380
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:56,920
he knew of Adler.

381
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:05,300
He may have met Adler and the cognitive behavioral thing kind of sprung, we believe, with the

382
00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:09,120
help of the outlooks of Adler.

383
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,520
Albert Ellis and REBT was very clear about that.

384
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:19,400
He used to tussle with Aaron Beck now and again to say who is the one who brought it

385
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,400
forward.

386
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:21,400
Okay, good.

387
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:28,920
I read so in CBT, those of you who know there's there's the whole like your core belief, whatever

388
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,160
your core belief is, and then you know, the incoming information if it aligns with your

389
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,000
core belief, you accept it.

390
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,360
If it doesn't align with your core belief, you're likely to dismiss it.

391
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,480
There's like a whole model in CBT on that.

392
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,760
But Adler talked about it in one of his books.

393
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:50,320
I think it's on what life should mean to you in like the on crime and its solution

394
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,640
chapter.

395
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:59,400
He talks about core beliefs basically, and it was very interesting to see that.

396
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:08,240
The core belief or beliefs have themselves, they spring from an organizing principle of

397
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,600
life.

398
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,160
And this is where the the.

399
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:22,320
Tricursions or after Rudolph Tricourus, who was Adler's main American, he was Viennese,

400
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:31,360
but in America, he was a primary disciple who brought forward our national schools and

401
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,600
like journals and all that.

402
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:40,120
But he was the one that drove it in the cognitive areas.

403
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,560
There's a whole nother group.

404
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:47,160
He was in Chicago, a group in New York and some out in California who were more of the

405
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,440
psychoanalytic or psychodynamic at least bent.

406
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:58,040
And while they also followed Adler's educational psychoeducational movements and counseling,

407
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:03,240
they didn't want to let go of the depth part because they were dealing with people who

408
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,360
just suffered the horrors of World War Two and Holocaust and the like.

409
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,440
And they knew there was deep work to do.

410
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:18,280
And they came to the United States and they saw a lot of work to be done in that area.

411
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:33,680
So our that group includes a European cohort that was Sophie De Vries, who was a Netherlands

412
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:40,880
lady, a zisher who was Adler's right hand person in Vienna.

413
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:48,040
She ended up in California, Heinz Hansbacher from Germany, Kurt Adler, Adler's son, Alexander

414
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:54,160
Mueller, who was the first international Adlerian society president.

415
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,840
They all ended up in the States.

416
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,720
And frankly, they had some differences with Dreichers.

417
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,280
That's a whole nother discussion.

418
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:09,260
They kept kind of to themselves in a way, but they were they were dealing with individual

419
00:34:09,260 --> 00:34:13,400
and family work, but they weren't doing the psychoeducation and the like.

420
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,320
Now, here's the difference, I'll say in a couple of strokes, is that they held on to

421
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:25,680
the concept of the fictional final goal, which is that organizing principle, the thought

422
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:35,840
that this single movement in my life will bring about a feeling of such success or accomplishment

423
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:41,840
whenever I do that, whenever I get there or close to that, that it will abolish my inferior

424
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:42,840
feelings.

425
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:48,840
It's kind of a hope and a plan that this is the way we go, says a little four or five

426
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:49,840
year old.

427
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,960
This is, you know, I've got to beat up my little brother.

428
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,960
I've always got to stand tall, or I've got to let my sister do this to me, or I must

429
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,320
always do that to her.

430
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:03,160
Or I'm making it simplistic now, but all a very unique way of looking at it.

431
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,920
And the core beliefs emanate from that.

432
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:05,920
That's what I wanted to say.

433
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,240
The core beliefs emanate from that.

434
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:14,320
And when Adler talked to the populace, he talked about core beliefs.

435
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:19,640
When he spoke to therapists and like, he talked about the fictional final goal.

436
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:26,000
We've got to get to that to understand where these beliefs are emanating from.

437
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:36,400
If we can, Stein would say, if we can dissolve that fictional goal that is overly compensatory,

438
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:42,320
we'll have an opportunity to let this person be free of that and redirect his or her life,

439
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,320
redirect their life as they would like it to be.

440
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:46,320
Yeah.

441
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,840
Can I ask perhaps a complicated question?

442
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,880
Yeah, sure, sure.

443
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,600
The fictional final goal.

444
00:35:53,600 --> 00:36:02,240
Let's say someone's, in my mind, the core belief, let's say, is like, I'm worthless.

445
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:06,120
And from what I'm understanding that you're saying is like, that's their core belief.

446
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:12,040
And somewhere in that understanding of I'm worthless, there's a goal that they're, a

447
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,920
fictional final goal that they are playing out.

448
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:21,240
And if you can figure out that goal and how it's perhaps amiss, then the core belief can

449
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:22,240
shift or something.

450
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:23,240
Is that wrong or is that?

451
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:24,240
Exactly right.

452
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:25,240
That's right.

453
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:30,800
Except I would just say the core belief is not I am worthless, because that is the inferiority

454
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,120
feeling I would say, if you just put it out there.

455
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:41,880
The schema we use is we try to identify the core inferior feeling, could be the core belief,

456
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,680
and then the belief of how I get out of that.

457
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,520
That's my compensatory goal.

458
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:56,160
And now I hope I probably confused a little bit, but the core belief or the basic beliefs

459
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,720
is the Drikursians call them, is a little cluster of four or five beliefs that say,

460
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:07,120
here's how I do it when I'm with perhaps women, here's how I do it when I'm at the job, here's

461
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:12,160
how I do it when I'm on the play yard, it's like, or what I can eat.

462
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:18,840
There's a lot of unique little things that become rigid in a person's life, and they're

463
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:25,320
going after those all the time, unproductively typically, or at the expense of somebody typically,

464
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:26,320
because they're getting over it.

465
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,240
It's not a cooperative movement.

466
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:38,640
This is the concern in working with people that the fictional final goal itself is very

467
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,480
self-serving, and understandably so.

468
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,720
It's not a critique when I say that as much as it is, I mean, at 40 years old, if you're

469
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:51,640
still out for yourself, some would say more power to you.

470
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,440
We would just say, yeah, but there's probably more power if you shared it around the table,

471
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,160
if power is important to you in that regard.

472
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:09,960
But we believe that doing the effort, the weeks and sometimes months of work to understand

473
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:16,720
that dynamic of minus to plus, from inferior to compensatory goal, is the core vibrating

474
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:20,200
principle in these people's lives, in our lives.

475
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:26,560
And if we can help them dissolve that and not feel any longer, it feels like a driving,

476
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,000
but let me introduce the idea of teleology.

477
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,600
It's a striving, actually.

478
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,860
It's a picture they have or feeling sense of something in their future that they'll

479
00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:36,320
know when they get there.

480
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,280
So they're striving for that.

481
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:43,600
And if we can undo that, then they're free not to go that rigid direction, knocking people

482
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:52,480
out of the way or walking over them or, ironically and paradoxically, belittling themselves so

483
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,480
somebody else will lift them up.

484
00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:02,080
All these kind of dynamics can be explained or understood in this wonderful scheme that

485
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,520
Adler has developed.

486
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,480
Simple but powerful, I would say.

487
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,480
Do you know offhand of, you mentioned like Alfred has some collected works.

488
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,720
Do you know offhand of where that might be best explained?

489
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:18,200
In the collected works?

490
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:19,200
Or anywhere?

491
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,200
Yes.

492
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,600
In the first volume of the collected works, I was going to do a show and tell at some

493
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,040
point here.

494
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:33,520
The first volume is Adler's kind of lead book.

495
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,560
It's called The Neurotic Character.

496
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,600
He wrote it in 1912.

497
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:44,000
It was updated every year for probably 10 years beyond that.

498
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:50,560
It became the core of the understanding of Adler's theory.

499
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:59,400
I say heavy duty read, but it's lovely in what it expresses to you.

500
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,080
It's also in social interest.

501
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,960
Let me just name these four books.

502
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,480
You mentioned What Life Should Mean to You.

503
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,760
I want to mention four of them because they were all compilations of his public lectures.

504
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,440
They're very accessible and still good.

505
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,680
They vary a little bit, but all contain kind of the whole theory.

506
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,640
My oldest to youngest, the oldest being Understanding Human Nature.

507
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:32,480
I want to say the German title of that was Menschenkenntnis, human understanding.

508
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,880
The whole theme is Adler's individual psychology is trying to understand how human beings generally

509
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,260
move.

510
00:40:39,260 --> 00:40:43,160
We consider that Adler's contribution.

511
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:50,600
He saw if Freud thought psychosexually and Jung psychospiritually might be too narrow

512
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,360
for Jung, but esoterically, Adler was psychosocial.

513
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:59,240
It was like society and the people and the community and how do we work.

514
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,920
So there's Understanding Human Nature, then there's Science of Living.

515
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,800
It goes by different titles.

516
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,000
You've seen this one before.

517
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,200
Then there's What Life Should Mean to You and finally Social Interest.

518
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,360
They're all slim volumes.

519
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:14,360
People are looking for them.

520
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:19,640
You can get e-versions of them from Able Books and stuff like that or Google Books.

521
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,880
They're really worth tying down.

522
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:29,880
That Social Interest, that last one does mention the fictional final goal a little bit.

523
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:36,480
In as much as he wasn't talking to therapists, you don't get the full therapeutic thrust

524
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:46,440
that we try to put out in the 12 volumes and in our institutes.

525
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,240
Let me say one more thing theoretically, if I may.

526
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:57,800
I've been talking about specifics of Adler configurations.

527
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:03,040
What Adler, I think, contributed to the whole line of psychopathology today, which then

528
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:13,400
was responded to by psychotherapy, are these four components, teleology, phenomenology,

529
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,840
holism and social interest or social focus or social justice, whatever you want to call

530
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:19,840
that.

531
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:26,680
You'll find those four components, I feel confident, in every therapy and every conception

532
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,680
of pathology today.

533
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:30,680
He was Adler.

534
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:31,680
He was the first to bring them together.

535
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,520
He wasn't the first to invent them.

536
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:38,680
That's not the point, the deep, long-lasting philosophical components, but he was the first

537
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,440
to find them interwoven and coordinated.

538
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,760
I would say we could probably draw a matrix of how the different technique therapies fall

539
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:54,080
today by adjusting those four components.

540
00:42:54,080 --> 00:43:00,360
I would argue that Adler has the most balanced, so you don't just emphasize where they're

541
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:06,920
going or that it's all connected, holism, or that we must be just in our, but he sees

542
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:14,840
it all fits together, they support and help one another, which itself is a holistic concept.

543
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:21,360
Adler was thrilled when he discovered that from Jan Smuts, who has a mixed reputation.

544
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:32,600
Yeah, we got, so, trying to remember where we got off track, but...

545
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:40,840
Well that was from the Drikurajan model to our psychodynamic model.

546
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,880
What we do is we look for that core, but we don't do a cognitive thing with that.

547
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:47,960
We don't explain that to people.

548
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,800
We actually help them experience it.

549
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:59,480
This is where we feel such kindred fellows with emotion-focused and body therapies and

550
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:09,080
the like at the classical end of the Adlerian spectrum, because it's through Socratic questioning

551
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:16,440
and interacting empathetically and encouragingly with people that we can help them face their

552
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,840
misunderstanding of the world, not by correcting it, but by us thinking together and saying,

553
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,280
does it really work that well for you?

554
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:29,040
If you did it this way, have you ever tried that and do you think that might work?

555
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:34,020
Or gosh, you just told me about this instance that really worked well.

556
00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:37,280
What do you think is going on there that, you know?

557
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:38,960
We also do a lot of identity imagery.

558
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:48,480
We do amounts of body work and eidetic, really focused, kind of reimagining things.

559
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:49,720
But we're not so...

560
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:51,800
I don't mean to emphasize our techniques.

561
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,280
It's mainly a relationship that helps people explore themselves and understand how they're

562
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:03,880
causing a lot of pain in their lives, either by running and dodging other pains, but in

563
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:13,440
the end feeling unsuited or ready for some of the daily interactions that they have to

564
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:14,440
face.

565
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:15,920
That's very interesting.

566
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,800
I want to...

567
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,880
I would like to...

568
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,160
From here, can we kind of take it and discuss?

569
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:34,880
So I know that there are...we've discussed some of the basic principles.

570
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:43,560
I'm also thinking of how Adler talked about the three problems of life are social, occupational,

571
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,680
and love and marriage.

572
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,760
Those questions are asked of everyone.

573
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:55,360
Your style of life is how you answer those questions.

574
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,480
And tie that into...

575
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:58,480
Okay.

576
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:04,200
So that, along with...you talked about the experiential part.

577
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:12,560
Is this working for you, avoiding pain, or are you causing more pain?

578
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:21,920
The problems of life resulting in...if someone is unable to answer that, maybe symptoms arise

579
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:27,480
and then an attitude might be formed, and then how you work yourself out of that attitude

580
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,080
and get back on the side of life.

581
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,080
Does that make sense?

582
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,080
Yeah.

583
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,200
You want me to say how that might work?

584
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:36,200
Yep.

585
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:37,200
Oh, wow.

586
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:38,200
You did it very well.

587
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:46,640
So try to put some...So life comes at us, we believe, in these three big chunks, as you

588
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:53,640
just mentioned, that I have to do something about...because I am in association.

589
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,760
I'm born in association with my mother.

590
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:03,480
I'm raised in association with a biological family or an extended family of sorts.

591
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:04,480
Okay?

592
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,120
It's all about association.

593
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:15,600
And at a certain point, I learn that I can contribute to that.

594
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:16,880
Why would that come to me?

595
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,680
I can tell you a little bit of a sequence, and I'll try not to lose track of where we're

596
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:21,880
going here.

597
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,760
But one of Adler's contemporaries suggested this.

598
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:33,520
His name was Wexford, that first a child mimics, and one might say it's instinctual.

599
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,920
That's an argument that is still happening today, but a child can mimic a person.

600
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:46,360
And later on, they will actually, rather than mimic a smile and the like, they will participate

601
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:51,280
in and try to grow, respond to a smile.

602
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,760
When they finally can respond, they will do other things, like imitate.

603
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:56,760
Okay?

604
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:01,040
Now, it's a conscious activity of imitating.

605
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:08,440
And at a certain body strength and agility, they will unwittingly contribute.

606
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,160
They'll do what other people are doing.

607
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,720
Besides imitating, they're actually doing it, and they practice, and then they get skillful

608
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:14,720
at it.

609
00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:21,040
So it's a natural sequence that can easily be interrupted by a lot of unfortunate things,

610
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:25,760
but it's kind of built into the human system.

611
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:33,560
So it's that movement that allows us to say, at a certain point, I will do my fair share.

612
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:41,560
I will choose an occupation among my fellows and do what I can give to them as I am receiving

613
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,400
from them as well.

614
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:49,720
And at some point, some people, not all, believe they want to partner.

615
00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:53,080
The biological issue of partnering is to continue the species.

616
00:48:53,080 --> 00:49:01,520
But we know that there's lots of different ways to do that, from in vitro to natural

617
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:08,080
childbirth and like, but it's no longer, as Adler once believed to be an issue between

618
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:14,600
a man and a woman, although that still is the biological source, of course, of our children.

619
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:22,160
But the raising of the child into a contributing person is no longer a man-woman thing solely.

620
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,480
It's also well done there.

621
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:33,440
So I just try to weave in this idea of I'm associated, I work to give back, and I have

622
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:39,120
some stance toward continuing the species.

623
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:50,880
And my lifestyle, as you noted, is my patterned way of responding to the world set what Adler

624
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:57,200
calls softly determined because of the way we were raised, not that we're locked into

625
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,960
it, but we've decided this is the way it works, and we're going to hold on to that.

626
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:06,680
So now, as an adult, if I have been pampered, I look for other people to do my work for

627
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,120
me because I feel somewhat entitled.

628
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,440
It came to me easier when I was a child.

629
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,000
Why doesn't it come easy to me now?

630
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:18,560
If I was neglected very often, I had to take it when I was little, and I guess I have to

631
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:20,360
take it now.

632
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:25,960
Or a neglected, abused child can also have a sense that I've had enough of that bad

633
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,620
stuff, I want you to serve me now.

634
00:50:29,620 --> 00:50:34,280
And there are a good number of all these people who would say, never mind that stuff, I just

635
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,960
need to get about life and contribute myself, of course.

636
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:48,280
We would say that is a function of a mitigation against those negative things in their life

637
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,560
by someone who loved them and showed them how to love, showed them the power of love.

638
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:58,160
And that's the source of the Gamainshasker field, the sense of I belong here, and I want

639
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:02,880
to do my part.

640
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:08,560
So you had mentioned how you then do the...

641
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:18,120
So then out of that, then you develop symptoms, and then let's say the person has symptoms,

642
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,400
they go to a therapist, and then how do you get them back on track?

643
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:23,400
Yeah.

644
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:29,200
I could take a symptom path maybe and share it with you.

645
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:36,600
I see it most often in couples, it's most dramatic there because the symptom list coordinates

646
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:43,600
itself between the two, so that the symptoms kind of play off of one another.

647
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,400
And might have, I think, psychologically to do with why we're attracted to people, quite

648
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:53,160
frankly, because they look like a type that will continue the way I have been having to

649
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:59,200
interact with the world by looking like it or seeming like a sibling or a parent or something

650
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,200
like that.

651
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:07,520
But a symptom, a person might come in chronically unable to hold a job.

652
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:14,640
And when you look into it, it's because we'll say they're generally nervous, and when they're

653
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:21,200
asked questions about why they did a job a certain way, they become agitated and they

654
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:27,960
start, you know, they kind of lose it and they get themselves fired because they're

655
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:33,520
too crude or too mean.

656
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,800
What might you call that?

657
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:41,080
Diagnosing is another thing that we're taught that we try not to do generally.

658
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:56,760
Now, a person like that could understandably find solace in a partner who, ironically,

659
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:03,120
was not altogether accepting, but could talk to them in a way that says, well, if you just

660
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:08,880
did it this way, maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

661
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,160
They like that because it's not a critical approach.

662
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:22,040
And so they might then up the ante in their symptom cluster because they want a reaction

663
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:27,320
from their partner that will keep them bonded.

664
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:32,520
Now in a number of ways of doing this, this means one person, the agitation would crank

665
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,760
up after a while to see how much my partner could take, and eventually my partner can't

666
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:43,160
take it anymore and it ends up doing just like other people do and breaking away or

667
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:44,960
saying I can't put up with this anymore.

668
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,880
So instead of losing the job, they lose the partnership.

669
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:48,880
Okay.

670
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,800
Now, what about us working with the symptoms in that regard?

671
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:58,100
If one was just to give anger management to this person, show them how to control it,

672
00:53:58,100 --> 00:54:02,920
that would not, we would say, meet the longing of this person to feel that they have a good

673
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:11,680
relationship with this person tested by a certain level of feedback.

674
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:15,120
And we would say if they learned to control their anger in one way so they weren't hitting

675
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:19,080
anymore, they could still jack it up in an argumentative way perhaps.

676
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:24,480
Or they could even do it in a passive way where they're not cooperating at all and

677
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,520
it still brings out an aggravation or a critique in the partner.

678
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:38,440
So in that sense, that symptom is locked into another symptomology list of the partner and

679
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:44,040
it doesn't go away until we resolve how come they're doing the, you know, which would have

680
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:48,920
to do with their sense of inferiority and how they're compensating for it.

681
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,680
And one could say, I'm sorry.

682
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:53,680
Okay, thanks.

683
00:54:53,680 --> 00:55:03,480
I was going to paint it out probably too simplistically, but a person who is agitated easily may well

684
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:08,800
have found when they were a child, if they got aggravated, mom would say, stop that,

685
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:09,800
get out of here.

686
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:14,680
And they got out of the job that was supposed to have been done there and it's left to other

687
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,020
people to do it, who then become the siblings, the critic of this person.

688
00:55:19,020 --> 00:55:23,320
So they become very familiar with this kind of dynamic, you know.

689
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:29,680
And this might be why they're attracted to, you know, a partner.

690
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:36,360
And in this case, it's not that they want to get out of the relationship.

691
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,320
It's just that that's how they relate in conflict.

692
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:40,320
Yeah, exactly.

693
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:41,320
Exactly.

694
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,080
We go into it thinking, finally I can have a good relationship.

695
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:50,440
Because all that other stuff is in the back of their operating system.

696
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:59,960
And so how would you approach that, especially you mentioned earlier about experientially?

697
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:05,160
I think I tend to think insight, like if they found out, oh, this is why you're doing this,

698
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,800
and it might lead to this, and that's not what you're looking for.

699
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:13,780
But how would you approach that?

700
00:56:13,780 --> 00:56:16,840
We certainly don't have anything against insight.

701
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:22,600
But we believe the deeper insight comes from not telling, but asking.

702
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:27,200
And let the person engage in that and come up with their own answers and their own words

703
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,040
to a schema we might have in mind.

704
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:34,560
But in the dialogue, it actually straightens itself out in a very lovely way that allows

705
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:39,200
the client to understand themselves and us thereby to understand the client better.

706
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,200
So we work on that stuff together.

707
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:48,040
I'll give an example, just try to stay with the same case.

708
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:53,640
That now, I'll start back a little bit.

709
00:56:53,640 --> 00:57:03,520
The person who has gotten out of jobs by becoming a cranky kid has grown into an adult who never

710
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,640
felt they had to finish anything.

711
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:10,680
They would get either thrown out or pout themselves out and somebody else would finish the job

712
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:12,120
for them.

713
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:19,520
Not without some critique, but that was the price they'd pay for getting out of that thing.

714
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:24,080
We would suggest, and I think this is Freud's term for it actually in the psychodynamic

715
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:31,720
arena, there is a compulsion to repeat this behavior until it works for them.

716
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,640
A repetition compulsion.

717
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:40,360
And we recognize that as trying to get the fictional final goal met.

718
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,720
Once and for all, I'm doing this thing.

719
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:52,000
It's not a conscious activity, but if we were to design for this agitated person what his

720
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:59,000
inferior feeling is, it might be, I can't do it unless somebody does it for me and they

721
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,560
won't do it for me until I get angry about it.

722
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,880
So I am bound to always be ready with the anger to get people to do things for me.

723
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:10,280
And as long as they do that, everything is going to be just fine.

724
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,880
Now, that's put in words.

725
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:18,080
That's nothing that they're carrying in their head and they're not consciously responsible

726
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:19,080
for it.

727
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:23,880
And the others say they're not responsible at all for it until it becomes conscious.

728
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:28,040
And so bringing it to consciousness with a sense that I can do something about it is

729
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,040
part of the art of therapy.

730
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,400
Not to bring it out and throw it on their lap and say, look at you, what are you going

731
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:34,400
to do?

732
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:40,440
What can you do without the proper cushioning for it?

733
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:45,840
Okay, so this person wants to get something out of this.

734
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:53,640
And our idea would be, I'll go with the eidetic image, if this person came from a family,

735
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:59,120
he's the only boy and he's got an older sister and a younger sister.

736
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:06,000
In such a case, we would do an age regression, perhaps, and have him remember the three siblings

737
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:12,120
when at the youngest age at which he could walk and be mortar involved with them.

738
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,880
And maybe that means his little sister is just in a crib, but the older sister showing

739
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,280
her competency in every way.

740
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:24,120
And we would take perhaps an early recollection he shared with us.

741
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:36,360
And eyes closed, breathing successfully calmed, and imagining this, that the early recollection

742
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:40,560
where they got into a fight and the sister took over and he went away crying but happy

743
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,480
that somebody did it for him.

744
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:48,920
We reframe that and see very clearly as he's looking in his sister's eyes, I don't have

745
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:49,920
to do it this way.

746
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,760
I can do it another way.

747
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,200
Maybe this idea comes, or maybe it comes as a feeling.

748
00:59:55,200 --> 01:00:00,320
No, I want to take that back from her and complete it myself.

749
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:05,560
And we guide him through where the sister feels the tug, perhaps, of him trying to take

750
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:11,280
it back and says to him, which she has never heard in his life, oh my gosh, would you like

751
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:12,280
to do this yourself?

752
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,320
Here, let me put it over to you.

753
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:20,760
How does that feel?

754
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:26,320
And the idea is to make it so crystal clear to him that he can feel the tug, he can feel

755
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,120
the texture of whatever he's tugging on.

756
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:31,520
He can hear her voice resonate in his ears.

757
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:32,520
It feels good.

758
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:37,160
We have redone it enough times so it feels soothing to him.

759
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,480
And even encouraging in that regard because now he's got the thing and he doesn't know

760
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,400
what the heck to do with it, but it's all right.

761
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:44,000
Big sister's going to show him how.

762
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:45,000
Try it yourself.

763
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:46,000
No, you can do it.

764
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:55,920
And after, I mean, it could be a half hour, 45 minute exercise in which he has had a first

765
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:01,120
experience of success in doing something differently in this regard.

766
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,200
That if we've targeted it right and the like, it's not going to undo everything, but he's

767
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:12,000
going to put it in his knapsack, I guess, of new understandings of the world that he

768
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:17,080
no longer has to get himself cranked up and angry, he can actually find out a little earlier,

769
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:22,560
maybe I should try that thing I did in the imagery and just see what happens.

770
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:29,760
We try to weave that into their daily life, you know, and that might be a way forward.

771
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:31,920
Yeah, that's really neat.

772
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:40,120
And if we're working with couples, Daniel, we would be doing that each way for several

773
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,920
months, usually two to three months, we'd work with the couples individually and then

774
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:49,800
we bring them back together with the skill base starting so they can help encourage one

775
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:54,120
another in interacting differently.

776
01:01:54,120 --> 01:02:03,720
I really, I really appreciate how you said help encourage one another.

777
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:08,920
And I hadn't really thought about that word, encourage much until reading Adler and he

778
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:14,840
talks a lot about either people lacking in courage or trying to give them courage.

779
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:21,440
And I think like as in courage literally means to like, give someone courage.

780
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,640
And I really like that.

781
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:30,160
I had a friend that I told about Adler and he's been reading him as well lately.

782
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:35,800
And he sent me a quote about and he said, I would love if each of my clients walked

783
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:39,520
away having more courage than when they came in to see me.

784
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:44,480
And I think that that's a really neat idea.

785
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,160
I wanted to ask, oh, go ahead.

786
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:48,160
Sorry.

787
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,960
I was just saying encouragement can be a word and encouraging work.

788
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:56,980
We believe it must always be candid and kind.

789
01:02:56,980 --> 01:02:59,320
So you can't say, boy, you did a good job.

790
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:05,120
You got to point out to them what was good about that job or what you enjoyed about that

791
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,360
or how they're feeling different about something.

792
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:08,960
So they really have something to hold on to.

793
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,360
You can't be as clients.

794
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:13,400
Some of them want it.

795
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:17,080
You still can't get them to others are suspicious of it.

796
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,320
Therefore you mustn't give it to them.

797
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:24,000
And if they're skeptical of you, you say, why don't you believe me?

798
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:25,000
I've got warrant.

799
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:26,000
I showed you this.

800
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,120
I saw you do it differently, et cetera.

801
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:32,880
And you build from the inside that way that they can do things and they can feel good

802
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,040
about those things.

803
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:46,640
Yeah, that I don't believe it's from Dr. Nancy McWilliams, but she talked about she

804
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:50,520
talks about realistic and reliable self-esteem.

805
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:54,480
And it's different than just trying to build self-esteem through like inflation.

806
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:55,480
Yeah.

807
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:56,480
Yeah.

808
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,320
And real downfall.

809
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:03,600
Since the 90s, they say I think they trace it back where everybody gets an award and

810
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:05,040
everybody gets this and that.

811
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:06,040
Oh, yeah.

812
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,840
It's a real unfortunate thing because people just expect now.

813
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:14,640
It's a little bit like a pampering instead of showing the effort that not the one them

814
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:20,360
a prize, by the way, but the effort that felt so good even before they got the prize.

815
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:24,840
The problem with behavior mod, we believe, is it interferes with the internal reward system

816
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:28,240
that is built into us and growing.

817
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:34,440
And it's hard to re-institute it once it's been sacked by M&Ms and stickers and things

818
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:35,880
like that.

819
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:36,880
That makes a lot of sense.

820
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,680
We are just a class that we're having right now.

821
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:48,240
It was talking about how internal or inherent motivation is more like more robust than an

822
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:50,200
external source of motivation.

823
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:55,360
And if you are inherently inclined to do something, but then you're rewarded for it, then you

824
01:04:55,360 --> 01:05:02,120
lose some of the inherent inclination and you can prove it every day with kids in schools

825
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,520
who are being rewarded for being quiet or holding their hands in their lap.

826
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:07,640
And they go like, where is the M&M?

827
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:08,640
Where is the M&M?

828
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,640
And then they put the sticker.

829
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:12,640
Anyway.

830
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:26,840
So, was Adler, so Adler was more social oriented, was he also more, like not, he wasn't a child

831
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:33,120
psychologist, I don't think that you would say, but was he, or a lot of Adlerians also

832
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:37,200
very interested in the education system and child psychology and that.

833
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:38,200
Yeah.

834
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:45,800
That's a big thing in the mainstream of Adlerian psychology, which we're very proud of there.

835
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:51,160
Even over here, I'm thrilled about, there's a positive discipline group that goes in and

836
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:56,760
trains in the schools, so it shows teachers how to interact with kids in this internal

837
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,160
reward system rather than the external one.

838
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:00,640
So it's really lovely.

839
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:09,360
But that's very popular because it went with kind of the coaching areas and helping parents

840
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:12,640
just straighten out a few of their misunderstandings.

841
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:19,280
I'd say along the way we also found that it doesn't always work and that's where the counseling

842
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,920
would have to be coming to adjust an outlook of a parent.

843
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:29,920
And in rare instances, but unfortunately brutal ones, therapy is needed to undo the knots

844
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:32,960
from traumatic childhoods of their own.

845
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:41,440
Yeah, but Adler was what I guess he'd qualify as a child psychologist.

846
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:50,920
There's still some longstanding statistics about the Vienna school systems that existed

847
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:57,880
before the rise of national socialism.

848
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:02,200
During national socialism, what was going on in school systems and the long years after

849
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:03,320
that.

850
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:15,440
And one of the statistics that they had tracked in this regard was the lack of violent acts

851
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,560
in the school systems around Vienna.

852
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:27,000
And they have never been as low as they were during something like 1927 to 1935 period

853
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:35,240
when Adler's 32 child guidance centers were running all around Vienna school.

854
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:36,240
Very interesting.

855
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:41,200
Unfortunately speaking, you know, for the population.

856
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:49,720
He and his followers would have open forums once a week where the teachers and the psychologists

857
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:53,340
of the school would bring cases forward to him.

858
01:07:53,340 --> 01:07:54,340
He would consult with them.

859
01:07:54,340 --> 01:07:56,640
Then they'd bring the child in.

860
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:01,840
Adler would speak with the child and the teacher and then they would go away with a plan.

861
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:09,040
It was a lovely kind of model that the Adlerians in the states have utilized.

862
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:10,360
We're trying to get it started here.

863
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:17,040
We call it open forum counseling where parents come and talk generally about an issue they're

864
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:23,880
having with their kids and we invite a dozen more families with similar kids to watch in

865
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:25,240
and see what's going on.

866
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:32,080
Everybody can learn on the days and we help them out that way.

867
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:34,320
Has it really caught one?

868
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:35,320
Not over here.

869
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:36,320
Not yet.

870
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:39,600
It reminds me of, I forget where I read this.

871
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:43,560
I forget which European Scandinavian country maybe.

872
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:45,360
I think it was a Scandinavian country.

873
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:53,360
They do where they started, especially if it's a first time mother, they send nurses

874
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:55,980
and people to the home.

875
01:08:55,980 --> 01:09:02,400
They do home visits for a certain period of time after the birth and make sure that the

876
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:06,640
mom's okay with postpartum depression and all that kind of stuff.

877
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:17,960
Since they started doing that, it's more about basically if we can help families now when

878
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:23,480
the child is first born and help them now, then there's going to be less long standing

879
01:09:23,480 --> 01:09:24,480
problems.

880
01:09:24,480 --> 01:09:26,480
There will be less crime.

881
01:09:26,480 --> 01:09:27,480
I forget what it was.

882
01:09:27,480 --> 01:09:28,960
No, that's lovely, Daniel.

883
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:33,220
That is one of the things that Adler was admiring about and probably one of the first people

884
01:09:33,220 --> 01:09:36,480
forward to say prevention is the way.

885
01:09:36,480 --> 01:09:41,360
He always had a prevention as a component of his stuff and none of the others were looking

886
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:42,360
at that.

887
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:46,680
They picked it up afterwards, both in Freud and the others.

888
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:50,640
Yeah, he was always working in the school systems.

889
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:58,160
I think because historically he was kind of locked out of the Freud ascended.

890
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:02,360
No question about that.

891
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:08,560
History is replete with the slights and the like that happened to Adler and how when Dreykos

892
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:13,440
went to America, he was kept out of the psychoanalytic therapeutic circle himself.

893
01:10:13,440 --> 01:10:14,440
Really?

894
01:10:14,440 --> 01:10:20,440
Yeah, I don't think it's that tough anymore because they pretty much quashed.

895
01:10:20,440 --> 01:10:24,560
Nobody knows Adler, so it's not an issue very much anymore.

896
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:33,240
But Adler's issue of trying to get in since he couldn't and his people couldn't work

897
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:38,880
in the larger clinics, they went to the school clinics and established themselves there.

898
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:45,480
And when they got to America, they really infiltrated the school systems and some church

899
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:48,880
organizations as well that were educationally oriented.

900
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:58,040
That's I think how we got on the psychoeducational track as Adlerians in the United States.

901
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:05,160
You know, some of us are trying to just broaden the base and show that there's still a lot

902
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:08,040
left in Adler to apply on the depth side.

903
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:09,040
Yeah, yeah.

904
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:12,040
Two trains of thought there.

905
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:13,040
One.

906
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:18,800
What was that quote by, I think it's Ellen Berger about?

907
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:25,560
Down page 645, it would not be easy to find another author from which so much has been

908
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:30,040
borrowed from all sides without acknowledgement than Alfred Adler.

909
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:33,920
Ellen Berger, he's a, yeah.

910
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:35,520
And why do you think that is?

911
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:36,520
Why?

912
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:41,080
You know, that's a conundrum in many ways.

913
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:52,440
Hoffman, who wrote Adler's most recent biography, takes a stab at it and he saw it as a little

914
01:11:52,440 --> 01:11:59,880
bit of the personality styles that came up in America that were, Dreikers included, that

915
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:10,120
were promoting something that just wasn't appreciated by the professionals.

916
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:14,680
Ellen Berger himself doesn't really answer the question.

917
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:23,560
I guess we've all puzzled with it, but let me just say my end summary on this issue,

918
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:31,240
that I mean, looking anywhere, we could point out where the Adlerian influence is, whether

919
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:36,720
it is Adler himself or the same thought process.

920
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,080
It comes down to this.

921
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:40,260
Don't make us a fad.

922
01:12:40,260 --> 01:12:41,260
It's okay.

923
01:12:41,260 --> 01:12:44,040
We don't want to be a flash in the pan.

924
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:45,600
We've been around for a hundred years.

925
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:51,840
We're going to be around, I hope, for a hundred more from beneath effervescing and in this

926
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:58,240
way that I talked about the teleology, phenomenology, holism and social interest.

927
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:02,040
Those are the kind of things that if you want to see how they really work, you'll get back

928
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:03,040
to Adler.

929
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:04,040
But you don't have to go back to Adler.

930
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:09,960
You can make them work on your own, you know, and many people are, from family constellation

931
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:16,840
systems that they have to any number of other technique-focused psychotherapies.

932
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:24,680
But they're based on this holistic understanding of our systemic intertwining.

933
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:29,240
We all do it very individually, that there is no going backwards.

934
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:31,760
We're all falling into the future.

935
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:35,240
And if we don't do it together, we ain't going to last long.

936
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:41,400
You know, it's just life.

937
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:45,440
The other train was, so you mentioned again, depth psychology.

938
01:13:45,440 --> 01:13:51,800
And when I think depth psychology and when it comes to like, you know, the Trinity, Freud,

939
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:59,840
Jung and Adler, Freud and Jung, they both talked about dreams and it being like the

940
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:03,840
primary road to the unconscious and that there's a lot you can learn from dreams.

941
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:05,840
What was Adler's view on dreams?

942
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:10,800
Yeah, Adler was a great appreciator of Freud's dream theory.

943
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:14,800
It's probably how they, how he became familiar with it.

944
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:17,200
Freud wrote that in 1900.

945
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:22,240
Adler and Freud came together with two other men in 1902.

946
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:27,280
So it wasn't very, you know, it was a very short period.

947
01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:34,480
And even after Adler split from Freud, he said, this was a real gift, that Freud looked

948
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:39,620
at manifest and latent content.

949
01:14:39,620 --> 01:14:41,680
Manifest being what I remember, what was happening.

950
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:43,640
I went to the store and did this.

951
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,200
And the manifest, what's the store mean to me?

952
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:48,400
And what kind of emotion does it bring out?

953
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:50,400
Adler says, you can't beat that.

954
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:52,520
That's what dreams are about.

955
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,040
But he said they weren't, now Adler changes.

956
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:56,040
Okay.

957
01:14:56,040 --> 01:15:05,120
Adler says it wasn't about fulfilling a psychosexual desire or need or dealing with a complex and

958
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:10,040
all the different other ways that Freud appreciated dreams and tried to understand them.

959
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:19,800
He said, dreams are a part of our conscious thinking and doing this because we can remember

960
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:21,900
them after a fashion.

961
01:15:21,900 --> 01:15:26,520
And they're perfectly consistent with that lifestyle that we have formed.

962
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:33,600
And the dream says, I cannot afford to not be working out the problems of life, which

963
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:40,680
we remember are associations and occupation and intimate relations.

964
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,040
I can't afford to not do that for eight hours at night.

965
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:45,720
I've got to keep always working on it.

966
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:52,000
And so our dreams are about dealing with the problems that we're having in waking life

967
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:53,920
in our sleep.

968
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:59,000
And that's a pretty strong theory that is also supported today in many quarters.

969
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:01,480
It's a problem solving technique.

970
01:16:01,480 --> 01:16:08,520
And this idea that Freud said, it's the man, pardon me, the latent, see, Adler also agrees

971
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:11,880
with, he says, it doesn't matter if we remember our dream or not.

972
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:15,960
What we need to cue on is the mood that we awaken in.

973
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:23,320
Because that mood is setting us forward into the day under a certain cloud or bright sunshine

974
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:27,840
or whatever that says, this is how I will accomplish that task.

975
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:34,680
It could be very specific, exams or going to work or finding a new job or another date

976
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:38,120
or paying bills, whatever it is.

977
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:43,840
But to wake in, for example, with a thunder cloud over your head or whatever one says,

978
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:50,280
it just puts you in, everybody knows to step away from you until you get done with your

979
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:51,280
task or whatever.

980
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:52,280
I don't know.

981
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:57,560
This is how I see it.

982
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:06,000
To kind of move into our closing, our outro, I guess, can you talk about what it was like

983
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,880
going through the Adlerian Institute?

984
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:12,640
And then I would like to have you do the show and tell.

985
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:22,680
That's such a lovely question because it's like, how would I act it out for you?

986
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:32,600
Before I became aware of Adler, I would characterize myself this way.

987
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:36,520
Not quite paranoid, but a little nervous, quite a bit nervous.

988
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:41,800
And then when I learned Adler, it was like, holy cow, you mean I can really, that's really

989
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:42,880
neat.

990
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:48,200
And then I got practiced in that and all of a sudden there was the depth approach that

991
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:52,560
I had known about for a while, but Henry Stein finally convinced me to take a deep dive into

992
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:53,960
one of the courses.

993
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:59,240
And it was like, holy cow, that was the feeling I had.

994
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:01,920
Because I loved Adler and I loved doing therapy.

995
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:07,920
And then it was like, it was just a brand new, that doesn't do it.

996
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:10,760
Because it wasn't brand new, but it was so full and rich.

997
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:13,240
And that was the sense I got.

998
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:18,880
And as people know who go through the institutes of different sorts, you're kind of picked

999
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:21,720
up and carried through while you're working on stuff.

1000
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:25,480
And if you're a therapist already, you get to work on your therapy with some of the,

1001
01:18:25,480 --> 01:18:30,440
I consider the best supervision around.

1002
01:18:30,440 --> 01:18:33,400
And really, so you're helping your clients.

1003
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,480
I was always thrilled.

1004
01:18:36,480 --> 01:18:43,200
It took me five years to get through, but it's a three year program.

1005
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:53,000
To be able to help the clients and to see by trusting my supervisor and my analysts,

1006
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:58,520
it was a delightful thing to see how people responded to what I now kind of know how to

1007
01:18:58,520 --> 01:18:59,520
do.

1008
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:08,960
But to see that Adler's whole system held together well and was really about my feeling

1009
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:12,320
better along with other people's growth and development.

1010
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:19,000
Not anything else.

1011
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:22,080
Was you seeing your own analysts required by the institute?

1012
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:23,080
Yeah.

1013
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:24,080
Yeah.

1014
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:33,880
I had to do it for one year and it recommended two years.

1015
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:36,160
And we've got three or four analysts.

1016
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:37,880
We're a small institute.

1017
01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:44,840
We usually, there's about 50 of us worldwide and we have at any given time, three or four

1018
01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:45,840
students.

1019
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:46,840
We have three of them now.

1020
01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:52,880
You know, it's a distance training program.

1021
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:56,880
So Henry is retiring now.

1022
01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:59,920
He's reached the ripe age of 90.

1023
01:19:59,920 --> 01:20:06,040
And his colleague, Diane Pienkowski is taking over in the United States and I'll be taking

1024
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:10,200
over here because we started our little institute.

1025
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:14,960
We have summer trainings that will take place here next year and they alternate back and

1026
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:17,400
forth with America and the like in the States.

1027
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:18,400
Excuse me.

1028
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:19,400
So yeah.

1029
01:20:19,400 --> 01:20:20,400
Yeah.

1030
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:26,040
This is kind of a side.

1031
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:31,600
I just kind of, Henry Stein, did he do some editing for like books?

1032
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:33,600
Yeah, yeah.

1033
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:36,360
He did the 12 volumes.

1034
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:40,160
Let me do that little show and tell.

1035
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:48,680
So I've got Freud and Jung's collected works behind me here, both ranging to 20 books or

1036
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:49,680
so.

1037
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:58,440
Henry put together the, he got a German, excellent German translator, but he just did the clinical

1038
01:20:58,440 --> 01:20:59,440
works.

1039
01:20:59,440 --> 01:21:00,440
Okay.

1040
01:21:00,440 --> 01:21:03,840
So the works of Freud and Jung are pretty much comprehensive.

1041
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:05,840
Not totally, but pretty much.

1042
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:07,240
But these are just the clinical works.

1043
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:12,200
So he started with the neurotic characters, I told you, and 12 volumes later he had found

1044
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:18,040
this unwritten manuscript or unfinished manuscript on the general system.

1045
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:23,680
So Adler's system grew as the years and this is a lovely volume 12.

1046
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:31,760
And we have much like Jung and Freud do, there's a clinicians guide, so the abstracts of all

1047
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:34,600
the articles of the whole thing.

1048
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:38,680
This is kind of a, I mean, it's a great book in itself because it shows you the movement

1049
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:39,680
of Adler's theory.

1050
01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:45,120
Because there's extended, not extended, but they're deep abstracts, you know, they're

1051
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:47,680
page long abstracts on all the articles.

1052
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:58,240
And then, I mean, Henry did the Red Book series and these are his, you know, 40, 50 years

1053
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:02,280
of 30 years sitting beside Sophie de Vries.

1054
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:11,040
And then, you know, he did a five volume series of CADP, which includes theory and practice

1055
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:15,840
and then case analysis, case demonstrations, child and family.

1056
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:19,080
And he's just finishing now one on couples work.

1057
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:21,720
So those are all available.

1058
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:29,320
It's a funny thing because our institute is built on the idea of mentorship.

1059
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:35,720
Sophie de Vries took Henry under her wing and they just worked and he did kind of a

1060
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:37,960
field theory approach to it.

1061
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:42,280
I'm the lucky recipient of his copious notes on how he was doing this.

1062
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:45,200
He brings it back to Sophia and she says, no, what are you talking about?

1063
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,080
It's more like, so he'd go back and figure it out.

1064
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:52,000
But they got it all worked out, you know.

1065
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:53,200
And so we do that as well.

1066
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,320
We train one on one with our people.

1067
01:22:55,320 --> 01:23:00,400
The analyst does the work with the student.

1068
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:01,400
That's really neat.

1069
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:02,400
That's neat.

1070
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:07,440
And most so going through an institute would, it includes getting your own analysis.

1071
01:23:07,440 --> 01:23:14,120
I would imagine reading through a certain amount of maybe the clinical work.

1072
01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:16,840
And then getting supervision hours.

1073
01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:17,840
That's kind of.

1074
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:23,560
I'll say to you real quickly, there's a three tier level of theory development beginning

1075
01:23:23,560 --> 01:23:25,160
intermediate and advanced.

1076
01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:30,240
Many people start at intermediate if they have learned about Adler before.

1077
01:23:30,240 --> 01:23:38,640
And then there is a discussion about the modalities of treatment and what the student is interested

1078
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:40,160
in.

1079
01:23:40,160 --> 01:23:43,840
And then after that first year, they begin their analysis.

1080
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:46,680
And then as they come through, they're working on their own cases.

1081
01:23:46,680 --> 01:23:48,360
Pardon me, that's not true.

1082
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:54,320
They're working on established cases where they learn how to apply this now, those modalities

1083
01:23:54,320 --> 01:23:56,480
to actual cases.

1084
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:00,320
Then in the third year, they pick up the collected works and they're going deeper and deeper

1085
01:24:00,320 --> 01:24:03,080
and deeper on their own and applying to their own work.

1086
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:05,160
That's roughly how it works.

1087
01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:06,160
That sounds neat.

1088
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:07,160
That sounds fun.

1089
01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:08,160
Yeah.

1090
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:09,160
And never fun.

1091
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:17,800
So for example, I'm going to be in the fall of this year starting kind of seeing couples

1092
01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:21,920
and families, which I haven't really done a whole lot of.

1093
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:27,880
Would someone like me who hasn't, you know, who's only read like two of those books, two

1094
01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:33,960
of his lecture series books, if I were to pick up, let's say like Henry Stein finishes

1095
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:40,080
the one on couples and I was to pick that up and read it, would I be able to get much

1096
01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:44,040
from that or do I need a whole lot more background in all of the rest of it?

1097
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:45,360
Well, what do you think?

1098
01:24:45,360 --> 01:24:47,000
That's a great question.

1099
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:48,840
It's a fair question.

1100
01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:51,960
And yes, you could.

1101
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:53,800
You could get a lot out of it.

1102
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:55,480
I have to admit that.

1103
01:24:55,480 --> 01:25:01,240
But it wouldn't be what I hope I've expressed as the depth of the stuff and the whole understanding

1104
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:03,560
of how this works, you know.

1105
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:06,280
But Henry is an excellent writer.

1106
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:10,200
He really runs away from the academic way of writing.

1107
01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:12,320
And I just fell in love with this idea.

1108
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:13,320
That makes me happy.

1109
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:18,360
He's taken to a therapist, you know, and they're really eminently applicable.

1110
01:25:18,360 --> 01:25:23,640
But we would never say that by even reading his five volumes, you're now a classical adlerian.

1111
01:25:23,640 --> 01:25:28,320
You know, that has to do with the mentor stuff because you can't get it out of a book.

1112
01:25:28,320 --> 01:25:29,320
You get it out of a person.

1113
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:32,320
And it's to us all the time.

1114
01:25:32,320 --> 01:25:41,160
Heart to heart, not page to page.

1115
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:48,000
With you, where is your, are you still interested in the integration kind of of spirituality

1116
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:50,800
and maybe adlerian depth psychology?

1117
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:52,160
And where are you with that?

1118
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:53,800
And what are you kind of working on?

1119
01:25:53,800 --> 01:26:01,000
Well, Daniel, that's an astute question because the issue of integration is really an issue.

1120
01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:07,080
And we just said through ACA, I got into a dialogue with some of the people who are doing

1121
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:10,240
integration work about psychology and spirituality.

1122
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:13,600
And I deeply appreciate what they're doing and how they're calling it.

1123
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:22,880
It's my feeling and in the direction I've been writing is that the two fields, spirituality

1124
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:27,720
and psychology, should collaborate critically.

1125
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:29,560
They should not integrate.

1126
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:32,000
I don't think integrate is the right word.

1127
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:37,800
Now I know that my colleagues have really restricted the word integration and I appreciate

1128
01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:38,800
that.

1129
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:44,760
But I think it's a misunderstanding that spirituality is psychology and psychology can be spiritual.

1130
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:47,400
And I don't, I just don't subscribe to that.

1131
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:52,040
I think psychology has its limits and has to acknowledge its limits.

1132
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:56,400
It can't make a pronouncement about spirituality, good, bad, otherwise.

1133
01:26:56,400 --> 01:27:03,480
It can and ought to when spirituality or religion starts doing mind bending stuff that isn't

1134
01:27:03,480 --> 01:27:08,280
healthy for people and putting rules on them or saying you owe me these things.

1135
01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:12,680
I think psychology has to call that out, charlatanism like it would anything else.

1136
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:17,200
But it doesn't say anything about the core principles of religion.

1137
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:23,000
And likewise, and this is violated all the time, religions or religionists think they

1138
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:29,160
can do psychology because they read the Bible or the Quran or the Upanishads and this is

1139
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:30,160
how we do it.

1140
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:31,840
It's just a human map.

1141
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:35,360
And I think that's not a respectful interaction.

1142
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:40,960
That's why I think in terms of critical collaboration, you know, that we help each other out and

1143
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:44,320
we work side by side and we figure these things out together.

1144
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:46,480
I think that's a better model personally.

1145
01:27:46,480 --> 01:27:50,040
That makes a lot of sense.

1146
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:51,040
Yeah.

1147
01:27:51,040 --> 01:27:59,240
I go to a I go to Regent University, which is they do they they look at like religion

1148
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:03,040
in Christianity as kind of like a diversity factor.

1149
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:09,960
And they talk about integrating Christianity with psychology and and vice versa.

1150
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:14,960
But I've never heard about it being talked about as a collaboration versus integration.

1151
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:15,960
Yeah.

1152
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:17,440
So I have to think more about that.

1153
01:28:17,440 --> 01:28:18,440
But that makes sense.

1154
01:28:18,440 --> 01:28:25,160
I'll talk later.

1155
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:30,800
Is there is there anything kind of closing out that you feel that we've missed or that

1156
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:37,760
you would like to kind of say or.

1157
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:38,760
Nothing jumps out.

1158
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:50,360
I think, you know, I'd like to leave with is this idea that Adler's is a humanistic,

1159
01:28:50,360 --> 01:29:01,760
fully integrated, holistically focused place to care for people, to truly care, to care

1160
01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:07,520
in the sense that we must keep our eyes out for or heart out for.

1161
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:14,560
That is beautiful saying to feel for me to see with the eyes of another, to hear with

1162
01:29:14,560 --> 01:29:17,360
the ears of another and to feel with the heart of another.

1163
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:23,760
That is the empathy that we need in doing our our our craft.

1164
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:33,600
And I think he he was sufficiently present and contemporaneous to get that across in

1165
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,220
kind of a timeless way.

1166
01:29:36,220 --> 01:29:42,440
Not that everything he said was right and written on tablets, not at all, but he understood

1167
01:29:42,440 --> 01:29:48,240
human nature in a way that we still do well to think about and try to incorporate so that

1168
01:29:48,240 --> 01:29:51,600
we can be more effective with our clients.

1169
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:54,680
That's what I hope for.

1170
01:29:54,680 --> 01:30:00,960
Well, you know, you talked a little bit about your your transformation through the Institute

1171
01:30:00,960 --> 01:30:06,760
and learning about Adler, and I don't I don't know you personally from before then.

1172
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:14,280
But if if the way that you come across is any indication of of internalizing at theory

1173
01:30:14,280 --> 01:30:24,440
and thought, I'd say it's a it's a great school of thought and that I think that you

1174
01:30:24,440 --> 01:30:26,960
it's always a pleasure to see people like you.

1175
01:30:26,960 --> 01:30:32,860
I feel like you're in the exact place that you're that you need to be like you love what

1176
01:30:32,860 --> 01:30:34,640
you do and you have a passion for it.

1177
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:38,360
And I you get a lot of meaning from it.

1178
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:39,360
I can tell.

1179
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:43,640
And I think that that's just it's always wonderful meeting someone who's like exactly where they

1180
01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:45,640
should be, you know.

1181
01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:46,640
Thanks.

1182
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:55,080
Henry Stein used to say that you can't start studying Adler without it touching your life.

1183
01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:58,120
And I would say, amen to that.

1184
01:30:58,120 --> 01:30:59,120
Yeah.

1185
01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:03,800
Well, I hope I thank you again for coming on.

1186
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:06,920
I hope that this is I feel like we've done a pretty good job.

1187
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:11,920
And I hope that people listening, they really resonate with a lot of this stuff.

1188
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:13,520
And it sparks an interest.

1189
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:19,200
And but I also hope it doesn't become a fad.

1190
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:20,200
Yeah.

1191
01:31:20,200 --> 01:31:31,960
Thank you so much for just reaching out.