WEBVTT

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Dr. Mark Solms, welcome back. Thank you. Great

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to be here. Your most recent book that's due

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to be released in the United States on August

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4th, 2026, is titled The Only Cure, Freud and

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the Neuroscience of Mental Healing. We're doing

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this interview a little early, but I'll be releasing

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the interview on August 4th. So anyone who's

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watching this, head on over wherever books are

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sold. order your copy today. But I wanted to

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start Professor Solms by just letting you know

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that I really enjoyed reading this book. I read

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it alongside another psychological work and I

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didn't really comprehend much of what the other

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book said but your book you did a really good

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job of taking complex like neuroscience and difficult

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to understand ideas and putting them in clear

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language without a whole lot of jargon. And also

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I really appreciated you did a lot of like personal

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narrative and you told some of your own background

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and history with psychoanalysis and how you came

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into editing Freud's work. And that was just

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a, it was really a pleasant read. Thank you.

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Glad to hear it. Yeah. Um, so the book title

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is The Only Cure and in the book you wrote The

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talking cure is a cure and still the only real

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one we have in psychiatry. Just can you start

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by telling us, yeah, how do you define cure and

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what makes it a cure? The main thing that I'm

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referring to there is the distinction between

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a treatment that is directed at the causes of

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suffering as opposed to a treatment that is directed

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at the symptoms. And I think that it's a very

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important point that I think the public need

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informing about, that despite the fact that psychopharmacology

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has all the trappings of proper medicine, you

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know, sort of physical, scientific, regular medical

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treatment, and not only psychopharmacology, but

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many other mainstream treatments in psychiatry

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like, for example, electroconvulsive therapy

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or transcranial magnetic stimulation, or these

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days, even deep brain stimulation. All of these

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treatments, despite the trappings of science

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and the physical nature of the interventions,

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all of them are aimed at suppressing symptoms.

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None of them And obviously I'm generalizing and

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there are minor exceptions here and there, but

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for the very most part, all of them aim at nothing

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other than suppressing the symptoms. What's important

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about that is a cascade of things. The first

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and most important is that as soon as the treatment

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stops, the symptoms come back because the treatment

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has not done anything about what's producing,

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what's causing the symptoms. Secondly, They're

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not that effective. So when I say they suppress

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the symptoms, I think that that's a little optimistic.

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They aim at suppressing the symptoms and they

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do so partially. You know, there's variability

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across different disorders and across different

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individuals, but they don't remove the symptoms.

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Then they also come with side effects. And as

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we've learned over the years, I emphasize this

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because It's only in the practice that these

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drugs and other physical treatments have been

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used for such long periods that they were never

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designed for. They were never intended. When

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they were first tested for safety and efficacy,

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they were acute interventions. But using them

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over months and years and frankly, in some instances,

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not a few instances, decades, there are a whole

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lot of other. side effects and some of them permanent

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side effects and withdrawal effects, all of which

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have come as a rather disappointing surprise.

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So the main thing I'll say again, in terms of

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this cascade, the first and most important thing

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is that they suppress symptoms and therefore

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when you stop the treatment, the symptoms come

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back. Then there's the fact that they don't suppress

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them completely, that they come with side effects,

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some of them enduring side effects and withdrawal

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effects. Surely, the alternative is better. In

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other words, a treatment that aims at treating

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the cause. When you treat the cause, if you do

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so successfully, then you ameliorate symptoms

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permanently. When you stop the treatment, the

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Symptomatic improvement persists. And very interestingly,

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I don't know how much detail we're going to go

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into, but if we get there, very interestingly,

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in the case of psychoanalytic therapy, there

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is not only a maintenance of symptom relief,

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there's actually ongoing improvement. In other

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words, the patient continues to get more better

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after the end of the treatment, which is as sure

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a sign. of having received a causal treatment

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as they can be. In other words, the effect of

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the treatment clearly persists. Something has

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changed within the person. The mechanism continues

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to be active after the end of the treatment.

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I mentioned how the physical psychiatric treatments

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pharmacological and otherwise. The fact that

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they have all the trappings of science is rather,

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it's important to point out that despite all

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of that appearance of proper medicine, actually

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this apparently fluffy business of just talking

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to another person which seems very unlikely to

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actually be a more effective and a more mechanistically

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speaking, more curative in the causal sense of

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the word of getting at the cause of the ailment.

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Talk therapy is better. And this is not just

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an opinion. Fortunately, it's something that

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can be demonstrated by a great deal of evidence.

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There's a very large body. of randomized controlled

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clinical trials being conducted in the case of

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psychotherapy in general since the seventies

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and eighties in the case of psychoanalytical

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therapy, much to their own detriment. It's their

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own fault. The psychoanalytical therapists came

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to the game of testing their treatment a little

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late in the day, but since the nineties, they've

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been in the game and there's a very big evidence

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base. that these are highly effective treatments

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and that the therapeutic benefit is an enduring

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one. Yeah and you put even with the psychiatric

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drugs and medications, they're not merely symptomatic

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treatments but even maybe conceptualized as a

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defense against disorders of emotion. You wrote

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I drew attention to the fact that the artificial

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suppression of feelings like panic and despair

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by self -administered narcotics is a defense

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mechanism, so let's put it bluntly. The mainstay

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of modern psychiatry, psychopharmacology, is

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for the most part a defense against facing the

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facts about what our patients really need. It

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is a way of suppressing symptoms instead of asking

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what they mean and fixing that. Yes, and I'm

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aware that that's quite a strong statement. And

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I very deliberately made that statement. Just

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for people to understand where I'm coming from,

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as you just read there, it's very easy for people

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to understand that drugs of abuse are defensive.

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In other words, rather than actually changing

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your life, rather than tackling what's actually

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gone wrong, for you in the living of your life

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which requires hard work and when i say hard

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work i mean time and effort but also you know

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emotional difficulty to face up to unwelcome

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facts to face up to those aspects of yourself

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that you least proud of and least least managing

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it's not welcome it's not something that one

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does. if one has an alternative. For many people,

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the alternative is, well, let's just smoke dope

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or let's just take opiates or let's just drink

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ourselves into oblivion. It's clearly defensive

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in those cases. What is it fundamentally that

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makes a difference between self -administration

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of a drug which makes you feel better but doesn't

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actually change your life. What is the difference

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between that and the medical prescription of

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a drug which does the same thing? It makes you

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feel better but doesn't change your life. I think

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obviously the intention behind the psychiatric

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treatment is much more noble. I think that most

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psychiatrists are very a large bulk of psychiatrists

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really do think that what they're delivering

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is the best evidence -based treatment that there

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is. I don't think that they think they're fudging

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things, but they're very important forces at

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work behind the scenes. Not least of it, the

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industry, the pharmacological industry, multi

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-billion dollar industry with a massive marketing

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wings, unlike psychotherapy and psychoanalysis,

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just people pottering around in there. private

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practices, usually on a fairly individual basis.

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He's not a vast organization, certainly not vast

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corporations behind them. Then there's the healthcare

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industry too, a healthcare industry in the sense

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of healthcare providers. If you can provide cheap

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and brief treatments and get away with it, obviously,

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you would choose to do that. So these kinds of

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things are going on behind the scenes. So I really

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do think it's a defense, although I think that

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the responsibility ultimately rests with patients.

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It's patients who buy into this narrative because

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it suits their wish to believe that it's possible

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to get quick and easy solutions. rather than

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the much more difficult path that leads to real

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change. Yeah, I worked at the, I worked somewhere

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and I worked in the substance use department.

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And when the patients would come to therapy,

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we did therapy and group therapy with them, they

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often said, I need to find new coping skills.

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I need to, and they would have it, they've probably

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been through there before and we kind of hammer

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coping skills. as in like they lack coping skills,

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so they're turning to drugs or alcohol. And then

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I would talk, I have been reading some of your

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work and other psychoanalytic work and about

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how emotion is at the center affect and that

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we have all of these defenses that we deploy

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against the affect, the overwhelming emotion.

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And so I would talk amongst other psychologists

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about it's, you know, like... our thoughts and

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retraining our thoughts and cognitive reframing,

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that's all in the effort to cope with our emotions.

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And it's not that emotions come from thoughts.

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And it just makes so much more sense when you

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think about it meeting emotional needs. And even

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I think patients have that same language when

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they come to therapy. You even say in the book,

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like, we treat emotional needs and most mental

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health disorders are disorders of emotion. emotions

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that have gone unmet. You say embedded within

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an emotional disorder is the patient's unconscious

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attempt to bring something about specifically

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to meet an emotional need. And you talk about

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the drives. You say when it comes to feelings

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which are never forget conscious things, what

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you see is what you get. What you see is what

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you get. The psychoanalyst's initial task is

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not analysis then, but classification. Can you

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talk a little bit about emotional disorders,

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classifying them and how you go about that? Yes,

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I'll gladly do that. I think that it's really,

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despite appearances, it's really remarkably simple.

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Consider it a virtue when it comes to the complexities

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of the life of the mind, to be able to say something

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clear and simple about it, because it's so easy

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to get lost in the thickets of it all. I mean,

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there's a great deal of complexity that one can

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get lost in and lose sight of this sort of simple

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big picture. So the simple big picture is this.

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that let's start with bodily needs. It's easy

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for people to understand that we living organisms,

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all living organisms, us human beings included,

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whatever else we are, homo sapiens is a species

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of organism, we have needs. You have to eat certain

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nutritional substances, a range of them. If you

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don't, you die. You have to drink. Water in particular

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if you don't you'll die you need to breathe and

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you need to you need to maintain a certain balance

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between the oxygen and the carbon dioxide levels

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in your blood you need to sleep you need to urinate

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you need to etc etc so it's the this is what

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i mean by needs when i said if you don't. meet

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those needs, you will die. Actually, there's

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an intermediate period, which is when you will

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feel great distress of a particular kind. You

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will feel thirst, you will feel hunger, you will

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feel sleepiness, you will feel pain, etc. These

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are feelings. Even though we're talking about

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bodily processes, this is the place that feelings

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occupy in biology. They tell the organism, this

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need is not being met. When I say feelings tell

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us that a need is not being met, I'm speaking

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about negative feelings. Positive feelings tell

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me the opposite. The very reason that feelings

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exist is so that you know whether a need is being

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met or not and which need is being not met in

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the case of negative feelings. That's what feelings

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are. Please note, it's not something fluffy.

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It's not something in the ether. This is pretty

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darned important. This is how organisms know

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whether what they're doing is working or not.

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It enables them to change their minds, to do

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something differently if things are not working

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out as expected. Now, the very same thing applies

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to emotional needs. This might appear to be a

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leap, but it's not. This is how it works. Let

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me take some examples which people will easily

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recognize as emotions. Let's start with fear.

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Fear, although it's clearly an emotion, what

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does it actually mean? In the same way that thirst

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means that you are not where you need to be in

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terms of a bodily need and so does hunger and

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so does sleepiness, fear means you are not where

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you need to be, which is safe. This is clearly

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of some biological importance. The reason that

00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.789
we feel fear is so that we know I'm currently

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in a dangerous situation. Where I need to be

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is safe and where I am now is not. Likewise,

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let's say separation distress because we mammals

00:17:11.670 --> 00:17:14.609
cannot look after ourselves when we're little.

00:17:15.109 --> 00:17:17.309
This applies across the board when it comes to

00:17:17.309 --> 00:17:20.150
mammals. So we have to attach to a caregiver.

00:17:20.670 --> 00:17:24.529
If we don't find somebody who will reliably look

00:17:24.529 --> 00:17:29.180
after us, we're going to die. And so we feel

00:17:29.180 --> 00:17:32.000
panicky anxieties when we are separated from

00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:37.019
our caregivers and we feel deep despair when

00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:39.819
we are permanently separated from a caregiver.

00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:43.920
So these feelings of panicky separation distress

00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:49.119
or deep depressed despair, these feelings mean

00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:53.019
something. They mean that you are you do not

00:17:53.019 --> 00:17:57.619
have available to you the loving, caring administrations

00:17:57.619 --> 00:18:01.839
of what we call an attachment figure. Those sorts

00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.259
of feelings, again, clearly emotional ones, they

00:18:05.259 --> 00:18:07.700
just tell you that you're not meeting a very

00:18:07.700 --> 00:18:10.559
important biological need, which just happens

00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:14.319
to be called an emotional one. Needs in relation

00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:17.599
to other people. We need to not be endangered

00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.470
by other people. We need to be cared for by and

00:18:21.470 --> 00:18:24.529
cared about by other people. I'll give just one

00:18:24.529 --> 00:18:27.150
further example, which is rage. And again, clearly

00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:30.069
it's an emotion. Where does that fit into the

00:18:30.069 --> 00:18:35.130
biology of it all? Well, what causes you to feel

00:18:35.130 --> 00:18:40.009
anger? Let's go down a notch. What causes you

00:18:40.009 --> 00:18:42.849
to feel irritation is if there's something getting

00:18:42.849 --> 00:18:45.549
in your way, something preventing you from getting

00:18:45.549 --> 00:18:50.490
what you need, something standing between you.

00:18:51.650 --> 00:18:55.529
and something that you need. This frustrating,

00:18:55.849 --> 00:18:59.849
impeding obstacle is the object of your frustration,

00:19:00.049 --> 00:19:04.309
irritation, anger, and eventually rage. The biology

00:19:04.309 --> 00:19:07.210
of it is clear. If you can't stand up for yourself,

00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:10.809
fight for your place, your fair share, you're

00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:15.569
going to cop it. You need to be able to do that.

00:19:15.569 --> 00:19:17.509
You need to get rid of things that are preventing

00:19:17.509 --> 00:19:22.539
you from getting what you need. Emotional distress.

00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:25.940
is just the same as bodily distress. When it

00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:29.380
comes down to the neural mechanisms of it, we

00:19:29.380 --> 00:19:31.960
understand it very well. It's called homeostasis.

00:19:32.779 --> 00:19:35.000
Homeostasis is just a very simple mechanism.

00:19:36.019 --> 00:19:38.299
You have a set point, this is where I need to

00:19:38.299 --> 00:19:40.920
be. I need to not have frustrating, impeding

00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.440
things in my way. Oops, I do have them. Then

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.079
I feel something, namely the feelings I've just

00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:50.339
been talking about, angry, frustrated, irritable

00:19:50.339 --> 00:19:55.140
sort of feelings. So when our patients, let me

00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:57.259
put it like this, these are the really simple

00:19:57.259 --> 00:19:58.759
part. I think everything I've said is simple,

00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:01.339
but let me now distill it to the simplest of

00:20:01.339 --> 00:20:05.940
things. During childhood, we have to learn how

00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:10.920
to meet our emotional needs. And that is the

00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:14.359
singular task of mental development. It's learning

00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.599
how to meet your emotional needs. Now, the bad

00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:21.069
news is it's difficult. It's difficult. because

00:20:21.069 --> 00:20:24.029
emotional needs differ from bodily needs in that

00:20:24.029 --> 00:20:26.769
for the most part, they are needs in relation

00:20:26.769 --> 00:20:30.289
to other people. So, you know, hunger, need for

00:20:30.289 --> 00:20:32.150
food, there's the apple, the apple's just sitting

00:20:32.150 --> 00:20:34.329
there, you take it. You know, there's the water,

00:20:34.410 --> 00:20:36.430
you drink it. There's the air, you breathe it.

00:20:36.809 --> 00:20:39.609
They are inert things that just wait for you

00:20:39.609 --> 00:20:43.089
to imbibe them. Other people have needs of their

00:20:43.089 --> 00:20:46.730
own. It's therefore much, much more difficult.

00:20:47.019 --> 00:20:50.019
to learn how to get other people to behave the

00:20:50.019 --> 00:20:52.000
way that you need them to behave in relation

00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.960
to yourself. To put it in a slightly technical

00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:00.420
way, other human beings are less predictable

00:21:00.420 --> 00:21:05.619
than our inert objects. So it's harder to predict.

00:21:05.789 --> 00:21:09.390
What will work and what will not work in relation

00:21:09.390 --> 00:21:12.490
to these needs of mine? And what will work with

00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:14.849
this person as opposed to that person? What will

00:21:14.849 --> 00:21:17.410
work in this situation as opposed to that situation?

00:21:17.890 --> 00:21:19.990
So mental development, when I say it's simply

00:21:19.990 --> 00:21:22.809
learning how to meet your emotional needs, it's

00:21:22.809 --> 00:21:26.329
learning a great deal. The other problem that

00:21:26.329 --> 00:21:28.650
makes it difficult is that these needs conflict

00:21:28.650 --> 00:21:32.190
with each other. So for example, I said, we need

00:21:32.349 --> 00:21:36.750
to keep our caregiving figures, usually a maternal

00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:39.710
figure, some other parental figure, nurturing

00:21:39.710 --> 00:21:42.069
us, caring for us, looking after us. We want

00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:44.809
to keep them available, close at hand, forever

00:21:44.809 --> 00:21:47.369
and always, on the one hand. That's one need.

00:21:48.089 --> 00:21:50.150
Then there's another need, which I've also just

00:21:50.150 --> 00:21:53.470
mentioned, namely to get rid of frustrating,

00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:57.730
impeding obstacles. Now. Whose mother never frustrated

00:21:57.730 --> 00:22:01.410
them? Whose parents never impeded them? So you

00:22:01.410 --> 00:22:04.589
get pissed off at your parents, but you can't

00:22:04.589 --> 00:22:07.829
attack them. You need them. And not only can

00:22:07.829 --> 00:22:10.549
you not attack them because you need them, you

00:22:10.549 --> 00:22:13.670
need their love. You also can't attack them because

00:22:13.670 --> 00:22:16.250
they're bigger than you. So there you have a

00:22:16.250 --> 00:22:19.990
conflict between your rage or your aggressive

00:22:19.990 --> 00:22:23.759
needs. and your attachment needs and your fear,

00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:28.160
your safety needs. There's a wonderful example

00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:31.400
of the kinds of conflicts that we get ourselves

00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:36.460
into. I will add to that, you notice I've spoken

00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:38.980
of parents and of childhood, which is the critical

00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:42.119
period when we have to learn the foundations

00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:44.779
of how we're going to go about these enormously

00:22:44.779 --> 00:22:51.880
important tasks in life. The quality of your

00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:55.420
parents is going to determine a great deal of

00:22:55.420 --> 00:22:57.559
what goes on there. When I say the quality of

00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:02.599
the parenting, I don't mean it exclusively or

00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:07.759
especially in a judgmental sense. It's no surprise,

00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:11.480
it's no accident that poverty comes with mental

00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:14.660
health problems. Parents who are hard -pressed,

00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:18.299
who are at work all day, who have struggles of

00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:20.700
their own, who don't have support networks, who

00:23:20.700 --> 00:23:23.839
don't have the finances, who can't live in nice,

00:23:24.099 --> 00:23:27.200
spacious, comfortable environments and safe ones,

00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.900
it's harder. It's harder for them and it's harder

00:23:30.900 --> 00:23:33.220
for them to provide for their children. It's

00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:34.960
harder for the children to learn how to meet

00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.259
their emotional needs. It's really very difficult.

00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:41.839
It's a difficult business, but that's it. The

00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:43.839
great task of mental development is learning

00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:47.059
how to meet your emotional needs and at a stage

00:23:47.059 --> 00:23:50.420
of life when you are vulnerable, dependent, ignorant

00:23:50.420 --> 00:23:53.079
of the ways of the world, physically incapable

00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.779
of meeting your own needs. But nevertheless,

00:23:56.779 --> 00:23:59.579
you know, that's when you got to do it. So it's

00:23:59.579 --> 00:24:02.279
not surprising that some of us come up with less

00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:05.420
than ideal strategies about how to go about it.

00:24:07.309 --> 00:24:10.430
There's a process in the brain, a memory process

00:24:10.430 --> 00:24:14.789
called consolidation, which is a big word for

00:24:14.789 --> 00:24:19.630
a very simple process, which simply means that

00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:25.589
when you try something once, it's not very deeply

00:24:25.589 --> 00:24:29.609
consolidated. In other words, it's a fragile

00:24:29.609 --> 00:24:33.049
kind of temporary solution. If you try it again

00:24:33.049 --> 00:24:36.549
and again and again, the ones that work, are

00:24:36.549 --> 00:24:40.089
the ones that become automatized. Everybody knows

00:24:40.089 --> 00:24:42.369
this. Think about walking, talking, riding a

00:24:42.369 --> 00:24:46.170
bike, playing a musical instrument, et cetera,

00:24:46.430 --> 00:24:51.890
playing tennis or whatever. As you repeat an

00:24:51.890 --> 00:24:56.410
action, a policy, a way of going about doing

00:24:56.410 --> 00:24:59.970
things, so it becomes second nature. That's the

00:24:59.970 --> 00:25:02.750
process of consolidation. An important part of

00:25:02.750 --> 00:25:06.200
it is that over time, these things become automatized.

00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:09.900
Automatized means no longer under conscious control.

00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.480
And we do that with our emotional needs as much

00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:18.400
as we do it with anything else. To the extent

00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:24.259
that you cannot find workable solutions, to that

00:25:24.259 --> 00:25:26.799
extent, you're going to suffer from feelings.

00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.019
And that's the heart of psychopathology, the

00:25:30.019 --> 00:25:34.099
keynote of every psychiatric disorder. Is affect

00:25:34.099 --> 00:25:37.220
the term that you used earlier. Our patients

00:25:37.220 --> 00:25:41.359
suffer mainly from feelings. This is the centerpiece

00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.819
of what psychiatric disorders are all about.

00:25:45.380 --> 00:25:48.079
And when you said in your, quoting me there,

00:25:48.460 --> 00:25:51.160
that the first task of the condition is not to

00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:54.980
analyze so much as to classify, I mean the quality

00:25:54.980 --> 00:25:57.829
of the feeling, the type. of emotional distress

00:25:57.829 --> 00:26:00.509
that the patient suffers tells us which one of

00:26:00.509 --> 00:26:04.089
their emotional needs is not being met. And it

00:26:04.089 --> 00:26:06.910
is literally as simple as that. If somebody is

00:26:06.910 --> 00:26:09.450
suffering from a certain emotion, it means there's

00:26:09.450 --> 00:26:12.170
a need there that's not being met. Why? Well,

00:26:12.190 --> 00:26:15.029
for the very most part, it's because the strategy

00:26:15.029 --> 00:26:18.089
you came up with during your development, through

00:26:18.089 --> 00:26:20.630
no fault of your own, you did the best you could.

00:26:20.930 --> 00:26:23.609
Let's say you came up with the least bad solution

00:26:23.609 --> 00:26:25.890
you could come up with. It doesn't mean it's

00:26:25.890 --> 00:26:27.849
an ideal solution. It doesn't even mean that

00:26:27.849 --> 00:26:30.069
it's a terribly good solution at all, but it's

00:26:30.069 --> 00:26:31.910
the best you could manage in the circumstances

00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:35.430
you found yourself in. That's the cause of psychopathology.

00:26:35.789 --> 00:26:37.609
Remember what we were talking about at the beginning

00:26:37.609 --> 00:26:40.309
about causes as opposed to symptoms? Well, there

00:26:40.309 --> 00:26:44.890
you see it. The cause is how is this person going

00:26:44.890 --> 00:26:48.750
about meeting their emotional needs? The ones

00:26:48.750 --> 00:26:51.390
that they're not going about meeting very successfully

00:26:51.390 --> 00:26:55.289
for whatever reason. As I said, there's all sorts

00:26:55.289 --> 00:26:57.609
of complexities that get into that. But the simple

00:26:57.609 --> 00:27:01.430
fact is that to the extent that you have not

00:27:01.430 --> 00:27:03.890
learned how to meet an emotional need, to that

00:27:03.890 --> 00:27:06.049
extent, you're going to suffer from that feeling.

00:27:06.950 --> 00:27:10.710
The feeling is the symptom. The how you're going

00:27:10.710 --> 00:27:13.410
about meeting that emotional need is the cause.

00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:17.480
And so there we have, I can now conclude this

00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:20.799
long monologue, we have the second simple thing

00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:23.539
I can say, which is that given everything that

00:27:23.539 --> 00:27:28.420
I've said, the purpose of psychotherapy is to

00:27:28.420 --> 00:27:31.880
help our patients to find better ways of meeting

00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:35.579
their emotional needs. Simple as that. That's

00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:38.140
what psychotherapy is. And again, I say I'm not

00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:40.980
embarrassed to be so simplistic about it. It's

00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:45.119
not overly simple. It is the sort of centerpiece

00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.559
of what we do. And it's good to be clear about

00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.420
what it is we're doing. We are helping our patients

00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:55.599
in adulthood. It's a kind of a re -parenting

00:27:55.599 --> 00:28:00.619
process. It's a sort of second chance at re -addressing.

00:28:01.069 --> 00:28:03.329
The first thing you've got to do is become aware

00:28:03.329 --> 00:28:05.730
of, well, how am I going about doing it? Because

00:28:05.730 --> 00:28:08.549
remember these things are automatized. So the

00:28:08.549 --> 00:28:13.150
technique of our treatment aims at helping the

00:28:13.150 --> 00:28:15.549
patient to become aware of how they're going

00:28:15.549 --> 00:28:17.970
about meeting their emotional needs, where it

00:28:17.970 --> 00:28:20.109
came from, helps them to understand why they're

00:28:20.109 --> 00:28:24.390
doing that and also helps them to sort of. sympathize

00:28:24.390 --> 00:28:26.589
with themselves as it were, you know, that this

00:28:26.589 --> 00:28:29.089
was, yeah, I can see why I'm doing this. It's

00:28:29.089 --> 00:28:31.769
the best I could do, you know, given the way

00:28:31.769 --> 00:28:35.710
things were. But things are not like that anymore.

00:28:36.049 --> 00:28:40.349
You're not a child anymore. You're now in a very

00:28:40.349 --> 00:28:43.190
different position and much better placed to

00:28:43.190 --> 00:28:46.569
be able to second time round, find a better way

00:28:46.569 --> 00:28:49.549
of meeting your emotional needs. And that's what

00:28:49.549 --> 00:28:53.970
we do in psychotherapy. So as simple And ordinary,

00:28:54.170 --> 00:28:58.309
as all of this might sound, that's how we cure

00:28:58.309 --> 00:29:02.130
mental suffering. It's by helping our patients

00:29:02.130 --> 00:29:04.809
to find better ways of meeting the emotional

00:29:04.809 --> 00:29:07.390
needs that they're suffering from. Now that doesn't

00:29:07.390 --> 00:29:09.650
mean there's no place for symptomatic treatment.

00:29:09.990 --> 00:29:12.730
I need to emphasize this because I don't want...

00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:16.190
people to throw away all their pills, and also

00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:18.430
they want people to think I'm some kind of anti

00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:21.710
-pharmacological fundamentalist. There is an

00:29:21.710 --> 00:29:24.369
important place for symptomatic treatment. For

00:29:24.369 --> 00:29:27.990
example, people can have crises. Crises can pass,

00:29:29.069 --> 00:29:31.309
and bad things can happen, and traumatic things

00:29:31.309 --> 00:29:33.910
can happen at any time in life, and to be helped

00:29:33.910 --> 00:29:36.990
through those things, of course, it's a very

00:29:36.990 --> 00:29:43.089
valuable possibility. symptomatically palliatively

00:29:43.089 --> 00:29:46.269
supported in times like that. There are also

00:29:46.269 --> 00:29:49.450
medical crises in psychiatry. There are people,

00:29:49.470 --> 00:29:52.829
for example, who feel suicidal. You can't say,

00:29:52.849 --> 00:29:55.970
well, you know, come into therapy, I'm sure in

00:29:55.970 --> 00:29:57.829
a good few months, you'll start feeling better.

00:29:58.269 --> 00:30:00.470
The patient might not be around in a good few

00:30:00.470 --> 00:30:03.170
months. So there you need symptomatic treatment.

00:30:03.349 --> 00:30:06.440
And likewise, not unusually. There are patients

00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:09.299
who are so depressed that they just can't find

00:30:09.299 --> 00:30:12.539
the energy or for that matter, the belief, the

00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:18.539
optimism, the hope that motivates them to go

00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:21.339
through the hard work of psychotherapy. So, you

00:30:21.339 --> 00:30:25.619
know, symptomatic treatment to help you get yourself

00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:28.900
together sufficiently to be able to engage in

00:30:28.900 --> 00:30:32.660
and use psychotherapy. Symptomatic treatments

00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:36.819
are useful for that. And I haven't exhausted

00:30:36.819 --> 00:30:41.059
the possibilities, but I think I've now spoken

00:30:41.059 --> 00:30:45.299
rather too much, so over to you. Yeah, no, thank

00:30:45.299 --> 00:30:49.079
you. There's so much there that brings up a lot

00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:54.119
of questions. One question I had in that is I've

00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:57.119
heard of even things like rationalization, justification,

00:30:57.460 --> 00:31:00.359
that can be defenses. And when you think about

00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:03.960
meeting an emotional need, How do you know if

00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:06.720
you're actually meeting the need or if you're

00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:10.579
just employing another defense against it? Yeah,

00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:13.980
philosophically speaking, that might sound rather

00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:16.640
complicated, but in reality, it's not complicated.

00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:19.640
It comes down actually to what we were discussing

00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:23.539
earlier about psychopharmacology. The easiest

00:31:23.539 --> 00:31:26.339
way to tell whether what you've done is defensible

00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:28.640
or not. In other words, whether what you've done

00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:31.539
is avoided the problem as opposed to addressing

00:31:31.539 --> 00:31:34.839
the problem is that when the method that you're

00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:37.299
using to avoid the problem is withdrawn, the

00:31:37.299 --> 00:31:40.619
problem comes back. So defenses work like that.

00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:48.400
You come home stressed beyond measure and so

00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:52.660
you open the whiskey and you drink yourself into

00:31:52.660 --> 00:31:54.900
a stupor and you feel much better. The stress

00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:59.460
is gone and life is rather blissful, but you

00:31:59.460 --> 00:32:01.359
wake up the next morning. First of all, you have

00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:04.019
the side effects. Secondly, all the things that

00:32:04.019 --> 00:32:06.240
are stressing you are back again. They haven't

00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:10.740
been removed by the binge. The same with other

00:32:10.740 --> 00:32:13.119
kinds of binging, like eating and so on, which

00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:16.539
is really very commonplace. This is how defenses

00:32:16.539 --> 00:32:19.299
work. They are an exercise in avoidance. They

00:32:19.299 --> 00:32:21.980
are ways of getting rid of the feeling, in other

00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:24.700
words, the symptom, without addressing the cause,

00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:30.519
the thing that's producing the feeling. That's

00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:37.619
just how defenses work. The illusion in the short

00:32:37.619 --> 00:32:39.930
term that you've that you've made things better

00:32:39.930 --> 00:32:43.029
by getting rid of the feeling is exposed by the

00:32:43.029 --> 00:32:45.470
fact that as soon as you stop doing whatever

00:32:45.470 --> 00:32:48.730
it is you're doing defensively, the feeling returns

00:32:48.730 --> 00:32:50.930
because the underlying need is not being met.

00:32:51.730 --> 00:32:55.450
I was thinking, I guess maybe an example, let's

00:32:55.450 --> 00:33:03.950
say that you are struggling in your marriage

00:33:03.950 --> 00:33:09.650
and you think about leaving but then let's say

00:33:09.650 --> 00:33:12.809
that you tell yourself well it'll be better for

00:33:12.809 --> 00:33:16.250
everybody if I stay and you start to really believe

00:33:16.250 --> 00:33:18.630
that and it's like the wise thing to do or it's

00:33:18.630 --> 00:33:22.230
the appropriate thing to do or whatever and um

00:33:22.230 --> 00:33:25.490
and believing that helps you stay and it helps

00:33:25.490 --> 00:33:28.430
it makes the symptoms kind of at least either

00:33:28.430 --> 00:33:31.470
subside or you you're not aware of them anymore

00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:34.829
how do you know if that's like a defense or if

00:33:34.829 --> 00:33:38.880
that's I guess if that's not meeting the emotional

00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:44.140
need, but do you know where I'm coming from?

00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:48.539
Yes, certainly. And I think that on the one hand,

00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:52.000
you've used a very commonplace example. And on

00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.160
the other hand, the You've illustrated how complex

00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.359
these things are. And I remember what I said

00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:00.299
at the beginning or near the beginning of our

00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:03.440
conversation. I said, this business of learning

00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:05.759
how to meet your emotional needs is not easy.

00:34:06.619 --> 00:34:08.679
It's not easy because you're dealing with other

00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:11.219
people who have needs of their own and because

00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:14.420
you have multiple emotional needs. So the situation

00:34:14.420 --> 00:34:17.119
you've just described is one in which many different

00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:19.639
needs conflict with each other. I mean, I'm sort

00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:21.840
of fleshing out the story that you've told, but

00:34:22.010 --> 00:34:29.150
It may be my partner is frustrating me, they're

00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:32.130
standing in my way, they're preventing me from

00:34:32.130 --> 00:34:35.349
getting what I need, so they irritate me. But

00:34:35.349 --> 00:34:40.269
on the other hand, they evidently love me. Not

00:34:40.269 --> 00:34:42.230
many other people seem to want to put up with

00:34:42.230 --> 00:34:46.269
me and have me around, so I stick with the devil

00:34:46.269 --> 00:34:50.400
I know, even though still. She frustrates me."

00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:53.019
Then you might have children with that partner.

00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:57.219
If the frustration is greater than the attachment

00:34:57.219 --> 00:35:01.059
need, then you start to say, well, I'd rather

00:35:01.059 --> 00:35:05.280
sacrifice this attachment with all of the uncertainty

00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.340
that comes with that. I might or might not find

00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:10.719
somebody else, somebody better, but I just can't

00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:12.519
put up with this person anymore, so I'm out of

00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.239
here. But if you have children, then you have

00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:17.599
another need, not one that I've mentioned yet,

00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:22.199
which is called care, nurturance. We mammals,

00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:26.500
I told you, we need to be looked after. Luckily,

00:35:27.340 --> 00:35:29.599
the mammals that we need to look after us have

00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:33.440
a need to look after vulnerable dependents. There

00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:38.199
you have another conflict. I've just mentioned

00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:41.320
three there. three conflicting needs in the scenario

00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:44.780
you've just described. There are plenty of others.

00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:49.719
There are, for example, another emotional need

00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:53.480
which comes as a surprise to many people. It's

00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:56.460
called seeking, which is a need for novelty.

00:35:59.050 --> 00:36:02.150
We all of us have that, it's why we go to new

00:36:02.150 --> 00:36:06.929
places and do new things and explore interesting

00:36:06.929 --> 00:36:10.250
topics and read books and go to the cinema and

00:36:10.250 --> 00:36:14.130
all of that, do courses. It's because we have

00:36:14.130 --> 00:36:19.269
a need to know, a need to understand, and it

00:36:19.269 --> 00:36:21.989
makes us attracted to things which are novel.

00:36:22.230 --> 00:36:26.829
So back to your relationship situation, I need

00:36:26.829 --> 00:36:29.690
this person to love me forever and always, but

00:36:29.690 --> 00:36:34.130
what else is available is a common problem when

00:36:34.130 --> 00:36:37.110
it comes to relationships. There's another emotional

00:36:37.110 --> 00:36:42.269
need. I'm taking the opportunity just to put

00:36:42.269 --> 00:36:44.630
some flesh on the bones of this abstract concept

00:36:44.630 --> 00:36:47.849
of emotional need. And by the way, it's important

00:36:47.849 --> 00:36:50.329
for our listeners to understand that I'm not

00:36:50.329 --> 00:36:52.190
plucking this stuff out of the air. I mean, this

00:36:52.190 --> 00:36:56.269
is the product of decades of research in affective

00:36:56.269 --> 00:36:59.429
neuroscience into what are the basic needs and

00:36:59.429 --> 00:37:02.489
emotional needs of us mammals and homo sapiens

00:37:02.489 --> 00:37:06.789
included. This is knowledge that I'm imparting.

00:37:06.949 --> 00:37:12.570
It's not a philosophy. Remarkably, another need

00:37:12.570 --> 00:37:16.269
of the human being and of all mammals is to play.

00:37:16.710 --> 00:37:23.369
We need to play. If you look in the park, you'll

00:37:23.369 --> 00:37:26.090
see not only the kids doing this rough and tumble

00:37:26.090 --> 00:37:28.130
thing, but the dogs are doing it at the same

00:37:28.130 --> 00:37:33.440
time. So I don't want to put too much detail

00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.659
into this, but one of the bottom lines of our

00:37:36.659 --> 00:37:39.239
findings in terms of researching, why do we need

00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:44.059
to play? What is this for? It's got to do with

00:37:44.059 --> 00:37:48.340
learning how to negotiate. power relations. Who's

00:37:48.340 --> 00:37:50.159
the winner? Who's the loser? Who's dominant?

00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:53.579
Who's submissive? Who's the top dog? Who's got

00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:56.179
the status? Who's the chuck and who's the nerd?

00:37:56.500 --> 00:37:58.860
Who's in and who's out? Who's cool and who's

00:37:58.860 --> 00:38:00.820
not? All of this sort of stuff. If you think

00:38:00.820 --> 00:38:03.599
back to childhood, as much as we idealize play,

00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:06.519
it's a bloody serious business. Do they want

00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:09.519
to play with me or not? Am I chosen or am I executed?

00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:13.519
Et cetera. One of the ways in which this all

00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.440
cashes out in relationships is that there is

00:38:16.409 --> 00:38:19.929
power struggle. There is cooperation and collaboration

00:38:19.929 --> 00:38:22.789
or the lack of it. Reciprocity and mutuality

00:38:22.789 --> 00:38:24.889
or the lack of it. Whose needs are going to take

00:38:24.889 --> 00:38:28.489
priority over whose? Who's going to dominate

00:38:28.489 --> 00:38:32.849
it in a world? All of these things come into

00:38:32.849 --> 00:38:35.469
the question of whether a relationship is working

00:38:35.469 --> 00:38:39.170
or not. So it's not surprising, as you started

00:38:39.170 --> 00:38:42.989
articulating your example, that you started thinking,

00:38:43.190 --> 00:38:45.949
well, gosh, this is not a simple question I'm

00:38:45.949 --> 00:38:51.630
asking, Mark. I hope you could use this in order

00:38:51.630 --> 00:38:53.989
to illustrate the point. And I think the main

00:38:53.989 --> 00:38:55.829
point that you're illustrating is the one that

00:38:55.829 --> 00:39:00.429
I'm emphasizing, which is that it's hard to learn

00:39:00.429 --> 00:39:02.989
how to meet your emotional needs because they

00:39:02.989 --> 00:39:07.210
are needs. in relation to other people who have

00:39:07.210 --> 00:39:10.230
needs of their own and because they conflict

00:39:10.230 --> 00:39:14.210
with each other. And so the answer as to should

00:39:14.210 --> 00:39:18.610
I stay or should I go when it comes to a relationship

00:39:18.610 --> 00:39:22.849
is not something I think people can necessarily

00:39:22.849 --> 00:39:25.989
decide for themselves. And guess where I'm heading

00:39:25.989 --> 00:39:28.429
with this? This is one of the reasons why we

00:39:28.429 --> 00:39:33.469
have psychotherapists. discipline that's been

00:39:33.469 --> 00:39:36.750
going for more than a century now, where we've

00:39:36.750 --> 00:39:39.969
learned through long experience in a wide range

00:39:39.969 --> 00:39:46.010
of situations in real lives. Fortunately, the

00:39:46.010 --> 00:39:48.349
bad news, as I said, is that it's very difficult

00:39:48.349 --> 00:39:50.969
to learn how to meet all your emotional needs.

00:39:51.050 --> 00:39:53.150
The good news is your emotional needs are no

00:39:53.150 --> 00:39:56.610
different from everybody else's. Wherever you

00:39:56.610 --> 00:40:00.170
find yourself, guess what? Many, many, many other

00:40:00.170 --> 00:40:04.460
people have been there before you. We've accumulated

00:40:04.460 --> 00:40:08.880
a body of knowledge as to how best to tackle

00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:13.420
these difficulties of life. That's what psychotherapy

00:40:13.420 --> 00:40:17.039
is. When I say psychotherapy, I mean it in the

00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:21.480
broadest sense of the word. In other words, sometimes

00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:25.179
you need a consultation with a therapist. Sometimes

00:40:25.179 --> 00:40:28.659
you need five. Sometimes you need, I'm sorry

00:40:28.659 --> 00:40:32.219
to say, months and years. It depends. Not all

00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:36.039
of life's difficulties are as much as they may

00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:39.739
seem impossible to us because we're in the thick

00:40:39.739 --> 00:40:43.920
of it. And because, remember, our own ways of

00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:46.179
going about dealing with our emotional needs

00:40:46.179 --> 00:40:48.659
are, for the very most part, not transparent

00:40:48.659 --> 00:40:50.800
to us. They become automatized. We don't even

00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:52.659
know that we're doing it because it's not we

00:40:52.659 --> 00:41:01.119
who are doing it. It's just happening. automatic,

00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:03.440
like, as I said earlier, the way that, you know,

00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:05.880
you don't think while you're speaking, shall

00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:08.320
I use an adverb or an adjective here, you know,

00:41:09.380 --> 00:41:11.380
and, um, shall I use the first person pronoun

00:41:11.380 --> 00:41:13.440
or not? And it's just, you know, you just do

00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:16.579
it. Uh, and this is what we do in all of our

00:41:16.579 --> 00:41:20.480
psychological life. So, uh, to, to get the help

00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:24.750
of a professional. who knows a thing or two about

00:41:24.750 --> 00:41:28.590
all of this is the way to deal with conflicts

00:41:28.590 --> 00:41:30.510
of the kind that you've described. And I need

00:41:30.510 --> 00:41:32.909
to tell you one other thing while I'm at it.

00:41:34.150 --> 00:41:37.909
You might have noticed I said earlier that the

00:41:37.909 --> 00:41:40.789
task of psychotherapy is to help our patients

00:41:40.789 --> 00:41:43.329
find better ways of meeting their emotional needs.

00:41:43.730 --> 00:41:47.409
I use the words help our patients find better

00:41:47.409 --> 00:41:52.690
ways. I use that phrase deliberately. It doesn't

00:41:52.690 --> 00:41:54.889
mean that we teach our patients better ways.

00:41:55.309 --> 00:41:58.730
There's some psychotherapies. I don't mean to

00:41:58.730 --> 00:42:01.929
say they're better or worse. There's some psychotherapies

00:42:01.929 --> 00:42:05.320
which do. involve teaching our patients techniques,

00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:08.000
better ways of going about meeting them. And

00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.159
there are other types of psychotherapy where

00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:12.719
it's a matter of just making the patient to where

00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:15.300
you're doing this automatically and compulsively.

00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.400
Do you know that? Now that you know that, you

00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.139
know, you've got the choice to carry on doing

00:42:20.139 --> 00:42:22.960
that, or maybe you might come up with a better

00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:26.960
way of dealing with that. That's not the therapist

00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:29.940
teaching you so much as the therapist helping

00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:34.679
to give you choice. to decide for yourself how

00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:38.639
you want to, to make you more deliberative, more

00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:41.880
conscious, where you're in voluntary control

00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:45.920
of your life rather than things happening automatically.

00:42:47.699 --> 00:42:50.280
So when I said that the one is not better than

00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:52.780
the other, some people want to be told what to

00:42:52.780 --> 00:42:55.760
do, other people can't stand it, and some sorts

00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:59.369
of problems. It's a no -brainer what to do, so

00:42:59.369 --> 00:43:02.730
why not spit it out and say, this tends to work

00:43:02.730 --> 00:43:05.969
and that doesn't? Whereas other of life's problems,

00:43:06.250 --> 00:43:08.130
like the kind of thing we've just been discussing

00:43:08.130 --> 00:43:11.289
in terms of long -term relationships, there's

00:43:11.289 --> 00:43:15.730
no one size fits all. It's complicated and it's

00:43:15.730 --> 00:43:18.739
individualized. And there again, we have a very

00:43:18.739 --> 00:43:21.019
important thing about this field that we're talking

00:43:21.019 --> 00:43:25.059
about. It's individualized. As much as they are

00:43:25.059 --> 00:43:28.659
general principles that apply to all of us, the

00:43:28.659 --> 00:43:32.019
brain is different from any other organ in that

00:43:32.019 --> 00:43:35.340
it is specialized for being individualized. It

00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:38.340
adjusts and adapts to the particular environmental

00:43:38.340 --> 00:43:41.099
niche that you find yourself in. And so each

00:43:41.099 --> 00:43:45.869
of us ultimately comes up with our own personal,

00:43:46.130 --> 00:43:50.030
individual, subjective solution to things, albeit

00:43:50.030 --> 00:43:52.650
constrained by the general principles governing

00:43:52.650 --> 00:43:58.389
this organism that we are. And so the solutions

00:43:58.389 --> 00:44:00.269
that we come to, this is the point I'm leading

00:44:00.269 --> 00:44:03.590
up to, the solutions that we come to need to

00:44:03.590 --> 00:44:06.590
be individualized. So the idea that this pill

00:44:06.590 --> 00:44:11.469
will cure it for everybody. is ludicrous considering

00:44:11.469 --> 00:44:15.750
the way that the brain works. Each of us has

00:44:15.750 --> 00:44:19.849
our very own brain organization and so each of

00:44:19.849 --> 00:44:23.409
us has our very own life's problems which need

00:44:23.409 --> 00:44:28.610
tailor -made solutions. Yeah, that was really

00:44:28.610 --> 00:44:32.170
helpful in talking through, I think, sometimes

00:44:32.170 --> 00:44:36.190
like in the situation that I gave that you so

00:44:36.190 --> 00:44:41.380
well fleshed out. I think sometimes it can feel

00:44:41.380 --> 00:44:44.320
like I'm responsible to this person or I'm responsible

00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:47.420
to this person. And it feels like we are choosing

00:44:47.420 --> 00:44:49.960
one responsibility over another or we're choosing

00:44:49.960 --> 00:44:52.579
like duty over freedom or something like that.

00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:55.659
But the way that you fleshed it out there, it

00:44:55.659 --> 00:44:59.739
was, well, you've got, you know, seven primary

00:44:59.739 --> 00:45:01.960
emotional needs and a lot of them are conflicting

00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:06.659
with one another. And it almost seems like a

00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:09.820
prioritization at some point of which emotional

00:45:09.820 --> 00:45:12.920
need I'm going to meet now. I've heard of like

00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:18.300
the importance of mourning, M -O -U -R -N -I

00:45:18.300 --> 00:45:21.679
-N -G in therapy, like maybe mourning a lost

00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:25.619
attachment figure or mourning an emotional need

00:45:25.619 --> 00:45:29.719
that you never got met and that seemingly being

00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:34.019
a way to kind of meet that need or bring it to

00:45:34.019 --> 00:45:37.440
awareness. And I'm going to try to tie it. I'm

00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:41.159
throwing a lot out too, but when it comes to

00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:44.860
emotional needs and something like you talked

00:45:44.860 --> 00:45:47.519
about, you're doing this thing. Can you see that

00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:50.119
you're doing this thing in order to meet this

00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:53.059
emotional need? Now that you know that, can we

00:45:53.059 --> 00:45:54.920
do something else? Can we learn something else?

00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:59.760
I think sometimes I wonder, like Freud, for instance,

00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:02.659
or Carl Jung, they both, you know, he smoked

00:46:02.659 --> 00:46:05.119
a lot of cigars and he had a hard time quitting.

00:46:06.070 --> 00:46:08.369
Young smoked his pipe. He had a hard time quitting

00:46:08.369 --> 00:46:10.949
even when doctors would say like, this is leading

00:46:10.949 --> 00:46:15.190
to bad results. If it was like, if something

00:46:15.190 --> 00:46:19.710
like that, one example would be, oh, I just really

00:46:19.710 --> 00:46:22.730
like the cigar. I like the way it affects me.

00:46:22.769 --> 00:46:26.789
And that's the only reason that I do this. Versus,

00:46:26.989 --> 00:46:30.230
can you see that this is meeting an emotional

00:46:30.230 --> 00:46:33.150
need? And if, can we find another way to get

00:46:33.150 --> 00:46:36.679
that emotional need met? even things like that

00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:40.280
that are perhaps you're putting a substance in

00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:42.360
which is changing things and then you want that

00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:46.539
substance again, would you say that that's also

00:46:46.539 --> 00:46:49.360
meeting an emotional need and that if they just

00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:53.019
knew maybe that that's what they were doing and

00:46:53.019 --> 00:46:56.719
they wanted to find another way to meet the emotional

00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:59.860
need that that would help them no longer do that

00:46:59.860 --> 00:47:05.440
anymore? So I think you've touched on a number

00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:07.780
of things there, but let me just pick up on the

00:47:07.780 --> 00:47:14.000
one that you landed on at the end. We're speaking

00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:17.500
a very loose psychological language when I speak

00:47:17.500 --> 00:47:19.300
about emotional needs and all of that, and I

00:47:19.300 --> 00:47:22.360
do that on purpose. It's something we should

00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:24.739
all be able to relate to. We experience our emotional

00:47:24.739 --> 00:47:27.480
needs. We know what I'm talking about. All of

00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.760
our lives are about this. It's about, I want

00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:33.619
to feel better. I want to avoid feeling worse.

00:47:34.019 --> 00:47:37.880
Everything that we do is for that end. That's

00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:42.539
what it's all about. But as I said, what we know

00:47:42.539 --> 00:47:46.110
about these emotional needs now, in the 21st

00:47:46.110 --> 00:47:49.369
century is hard science. I mean, we really have

00:47:49.369 --> 00:47:52.150
learned a great deal about what the underlying

00:47:52.150 --> 00:47:54.909
basic emotional needs of the human animal are,

00:47:55.269 --> 00:48:00.400
and this is powerful knowledge. the basic emotional

00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:05.400
needs of the human animal. Where are these needs

00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.900
expressed physiologically? It's in our brains.

00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:13.159
The chemistries that psychiatrists tinker with

00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.940
are the chemistries of the circuitry of these

00:48:16.940 --> 00:48:21.340
basic emotional and bodily needs that we spoke

00:48:21.340 --> 00:48:28.460
about earlier. body of knowledge that starts

00:48:28.460 --> 00:48:31.960
on the one hand in the business of lived experience,

00:48:32.340 --> 00:48:35.039
ordinary life experience, and at the other end,

00:48:35.059 --> 00:48:38.119
it comes down to molecular biological mechanisms.

00:48:39.219 --> 00:48:42.199
So, psychopharmacologists who are tinkering with

00:48:42.199 --> 00:48:45.179
these emotional feelings, they do so chemically.

00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:49.380
I said also, for example, even deep brain stimulation,

00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:53.239
they are literally putting electrodes into these

00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:58.159
circuits. The substances that you spoke of there,

00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:02.719
they are doing the same thing. Different substances

00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:06.320
do different things, like, for example, opiates,

00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:12.280
which is a very common drug of abuse. They ameliorate

00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:15.239
separation distress because the attachment circuitry

00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:20.019
of the mammalian brain is mediated by opioids,

00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:24.639
new opioids in particular. And people also take

00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:27.780
opiates for pain. Well, separation distress is

00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:30.320
an emotional kind of pain. It's a mental pain.

00:49:31.420 --> 00:49:34.980
These two circuits are very closely related to

00:49:34.980 --> 00:49:37.800
each other. So somebody who's abusing opiates

00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:42.179
is trying to make that kind of distress feel

00:49:42.179 --> 00:49:45.840
better. Somebody who's abusing methamphetamine

00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:50.650
or or cocaine, this is a dopamine circuit. What

00:49:50.650 --> 00:49:52.989
I was talking about earlier in terms of curiosity,

00:49:53.650 --> 00:49:56.369
interest, expectancy, that kind of positive engagement,

00:49:56.849 --> 00:50:01.030
optimistic engagement with the world, depletion

00:50:01.030 --> 00:50:04.489
in relation to meeting that need is ameliorated

00:50:04.489 --> 00:50:09.070
by these kinds of drugs. Not all of the drugs

00:50:09.070 --> 00:50:12.809
have a one -to -one relationship with these different

00:50:12.809 --> 00:50:15.400
need systems. Some of them sort of cut across

00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:19.920
them, like for example, acetylcholine, which

00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:23.340
is another brain chemical. What it does is it

00:50:23.340 --> 00:50:27.300
improves signal over noise. So it helps you to

00:50:27.300 --> 00:50:31.699
sort of focus and not be distracted by all the

00:50:31.699 --> 00:50:37.340
fuzz. And cigarettes, tobacco contains, it acts

00:50:37.340 --> 00:50:42.989
on nicotinic receptors. enhances your acetylcholine,

00:50:43.070 --> 00:50:47.289
so you sharper. That is in relation to all your

00:50:47.289 --> 00:50:50.070
emotional needs, so your attempts to, what shall

00:50:50.070 --> 00:50:58.309
I do here, are focused by smoking tobacco. Whatever

00:50:58.309 --> 00:51:00.590
the need is, whether it be how do I deal with

00:51:00.590 --> 00:51:03.289
this danger or how do I deal with this sadness,

00:51:03.750 --> 00:51:08.920
it does the same thing. These things, as I said

00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:11.119
earlier, come with side effects and withdrawal

00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:14.159
effects, etc. In the case of this particular

00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:17.119
substance, it killed the man behind you. He died

00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:22.139
of cancer of the jaw. It's better to find non

00:51:22.139 --> 00:51:25.139
-pharmacological ways, as I said, to deal with

00:51:25.139 --> 00:51:27.840
these things. Now, I said you touched on a number

00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:30.000
of topics and I said I will just alight on the

00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.440
last of them. But at the first of them, you said

00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:34.480
something terribly important, which I don't want

00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:37.889
to lose. you spoke about the importance of mourning.

00:51:39.510 --> 00:51:42.949
And I said earlier that in separation distress,

00:51:43.710 --> 00:51:47.070
when a mammal is attached to another mammal,

00:51:47.090 --> 00:51:50.909
and remember we are mammals, when you become

00:51:50.909 --> 00:51:53.690
separated, firstly you have this what Bowlby

00:51:53.690 --> 00:51:56.869
called protest. Mama, you lost it to me, where

00:51:56.869 --> 00:52:00.150
are you? And you search, you cry, and you search.

00:52:00.690 --> 00:52:03.590
And that's followed by what Bowlby called despair.

00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:08.699
By the way, Bowlby was a psychoanalyst, but he

00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:11.380
was also a kind of ethologist. In other words,

00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:15.519
a student of animal behavior, except the species

00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:19.159
he studied was us. But this separation distress

00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:21.980
cascade of going from protest to despair, it

00:52:21.980 --> 00:52:25.460
happens across the board with all mammals. The

00:52:25.460 --> 00:52:29.159
despair phase is, I'm not separated and trying

00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:33.019
to find my lost attachment figure. I have lost

00:52:33.019 --> 00:52:36.550
them. It's not separation, it's loss. And you

00:52:36.550 --> 00:52:39.750
slump and you give up. That's what all mammals

00:52:39.750 --> 00:52:45.090
do. Now, that's a horrible feeling. It's followed

00:52:45.090 --> 00:52:48.869
by the mourning that you've just spoken of. So

00:52:48.869 --> 00:52:51.690
if all you did was give up, then you have depression.

00:52:52.889 --> 00:52:55.889
What you have to do is say, okay, that I've lost.

00:52:56.489 --> 00:52:59.090
You have to go through the painful process of

00:52:59.090 --> 00:53:02.039
detaching yourself. from something you were attached

00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:05.239
to so that you can reattach to something new.

00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:11.440
It's true. It's right to be hopeless about ever.

00:53:11.550 --> 00:53:14.090
getting back somebody who's dead, for example,

00:53:14.469 --> 00:53:16.570
but it doesn't mean that you can never replace

00:53:16.570 --> 00:53:18.429
that person with somebody else who's equally

00:53:18.429 --> 00:53:24.590
loving and supportive and so on, or able in a

00:53:24.590 --> 00:53:27.789
new way to provide you with the satisfaction

00:53:27.789 --> 00:53:30.449
of those needs. In order to do that, the work

00:53:30.449 --> 00:53:33.389
of mourning is necessary. That's just the same

00:53:33.389 --> 00:53:35.670
thing that I was saying about finding better

00:53:35.670 --> 00:53:38.929
ways of meeting your emotional needs. One way

00:53:38.929 --> 00:53:43.099
is, I'm giving up. Another way is, okay, I've

00:53:43.099 --> 00:53:46.519
lost her, but life is still worth living. Let

00:53:46.519 --> 00:53:50.940
me find something else, someone else. That's

00:53:50.940 --> 00:53:54.239
why mourning is important. It's an example of

00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:59.739
the bigger process that I was calling, finding

00:53:59.739 --> 00:54:02.000
better ways of meeting your emotional needs.

00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:08.989
That's all very helpful. Thank you. I really

00:54:08.989 --> 00:54:11.730
appreciated a lot of what you just said. Well,

00:54:11.730 --> 00:54:14.230
all of it. I think most of it is in this book

00:54:14.230 --> 00:54:17.989
and I didn't know about like how opiates act

00:54:17.989 --> 00:54:22.510
on the same emotional Center of the brain that

00:54:22.510 --> 00:54:25.789
attachment is focused on and that was kind of

00:54:25.789 --> 00:54:29.369
mind -blowing to me And on that point, so the

00:54:29.369 --> 00:54:32.010
subtitle of this book is Freud and the neuroscience

00:54:32.010 --> 00:54:38.980
of mental healing Maybe you'll probably I don't

00:54:38.980 --> 00:54:41.320
know if that's the right word, but when I was

00:54:41.320 --> 00:54:44.559
going through school, I was primarily interested

00:54:44.559 --> 00:54:46.559
in the subjective experience and the psychic

00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:51.639
experience. So if I'm seeing somebody and they

00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:54.760
talk about how they love speeding down the road

00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:59.780
on their motorcycle, I'm not too concerned whether

00:54:59.780 --> 00:55:02.360
that's adrenaline or dopamine or whatever that

00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:05.639
is. And we were having like classes on neuroscience.

00:55:06.429 --> 00:55:08.630
they were talking about oh yeah when this happens

00:55:08.630 --> 00:55:12.230
that's the endocrine system or that's and i was

00:55:12.230 --> 00:55:14.909
kind of like how is this going to help me work

00:55:14.909 --> 00:55:16.730
with my clients or what does this tell me does

00:55:16.730 --> 00:55:20.070
this tell me anything new like me being able

00:55:20.070 --> 00:55:22.510
to tell my client oh yeah that's a dopamine spike

00:55:22.510 --> 00:55:25.570
and we just need to that to me seemed a little

00:55:25.570 --> 00:55:30.969
bit uh unhelpful um if you read literature you

00:55:30.969 --> 00:55:32.829
know i don't know how much adds to literature

00:55:32.829 --> 00:55:36.179
by talking about what the brain is doing. That

00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:39.239
was kind of my thought process. So, but reading

00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:42.179
this book, I really appreciated all of the neuroscience

00:55:42.179 --> 00:55:45.619
in here. So, kind of one of my questions leading

00:55:45.619 --> 00:55:49.019
into this was, what does an understanding of

00:55:49.019 --> 00:55:51.880
the brain or neuropsychology, neuroscience, what

00:55:51.880 --> 00:55:56.000
does that teach us about psychology? Thank you.

00:55:56.199 --> 00:56:02.099
Let me start by agreeing with you with your younger

00:56:02.099 --> 00:56:07.730
selves. I'm not that you hold back, but you know

00:56:07.730 --> 00:56:12.289
your student self. I think your student self

00:56:12.289 --> 00:56:17.789
was right that to say this feeling that you're

00:56:17.789 --> 00:56:21.269
experiencing is actually a dopamine spike is

00:56:21.269 --> 00:56:24.690
not to add anything. And so I want you to just

00:56:24.690 --> 00:56:28.369
explain why that is the case, first of all. And

00:56:28.369 --> 00:56:31.079
I'll start off by. putting it like this. It might

00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:33.840
seem as if I've digressed, but bear with me.

00:56:34.179 --> 00:56:38.019
When I wake up in the morning with my eyes closed,

00:56:38.340 --> 00:56:42.320
I feel myself to exist and I think, I'm Mark

00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:44.400
Saunds. I'm still alive. Thank God for that.

00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:48.760
That's my mind. It's me, my mind. I'm experiencing

00:56:48.760 --> 00:56:53.219
it. I then stagger out of bed to the bathroom

00:56:53.219 --> 00:56:58.590
and I see in the mirror this body. And with my

00:56:58.590 --> 00:57:01.929
eyes, the other one I was feeling with my mind,

00:57:02.190 --> 00:57:04.670
now with my eyes I see this physical body and

00:57:04.670 --> 00:57:06.809
I say, oh, that's Mark Salms, he's alive, thank

00:57:06.809 --> 00:57:11.210
God for that, he still exists. These are just

00:57:11.210 --> 00:57:14.929
two different ways of observing the same thing.

00:57:15.099 --> 00:57:19.219
Okay, there's not two Mark Solms', there's Mark

00:57:19.219 --> 00:57:22.179
Solms' body and there's Mark Solms' mind, and

00:57:22.179 --> 00:57:26.500
they are two appearances of the same thing. Those

00:57:26.500 --> 00:57:29.960
two appearances, let me put it like this, it's

00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:33.019
the same thing observed from two different observational

00:57:33.019 --> 00:57:35.719
perspectives, two different points of view. The

00:57:35.719 --> 00:57:39.179
being of Mark Solms observing inwards and the

00:57:39.179 --> 00:57:42.280
body of Mark Solms observed outwards are two

00:57:42.280 --> 00:57:45.139
appearances of the same thing. To come back to

00:57:45.139 --> 00:57:48.500
your intuition as a student, it doesn't actually

00:57:48.500 --> 00:57:51.539
add anything to say that feeling is actually

00:57:51.539 --> 00:57:54.619
dopamine. It's just saying, yes, you can describe

00:57:54.619 --> 00:57:56.659
the same thing from two points of view. You can

00:57:56.659 --> 00:57:58.780
describe the subjective experience of it and

00:57:58.780 --> 00:58:02.710
the objective stuff of it, the thing. but you

00:58:02.710 --> 00:58:05.409
haven't added any new knowledge. You've just

00:58:05.409 --> 00:58:07.489
translated it from one language into another.

00:58:07.929 --> 00:58:10.630
There's the pernicious tendency in medicine,

00:58:10.789 --> 00:58:13.829
in psychiatry, to think now you've explained

00:58:13.829 --> 00:58:15.469
something you haven't. You haven't explained

00:58:15.469 --> 00:58:17.610
the darn thing at all. All you've done is translated

00:58:17.610 --> 00:58:20.050
from one language into another, and in doing

00:58:20.050 --> 00:58:23.809
so, there's a preference for the second language.

00:58:24.010 --> 00:58:26.550
But hello, the first language is where the mind

00:58:26.550 --> 00:58:29.710
is. The mind is first and foremost something

00:58:29.710 --> 00:58:33.510
subjective, the being of the mind. Medicine and

00:58:33.510 --> 00:58:36.909
science in general always try to exclude this

00:58:36.909 --> 00:58:40.130
subjective stuff. But when it comes to the part

00:58:40.130 --> 00:58:42.610
of nature that we're talking about here, the

00:58:42.610 --> 00:58:46.210
subjective stuff is where it's at. You are your

00:58:46.210 --> 00:58:50.199
mind. If I said to you, Daniel, sadly, you're

00:58:50.199 --> 00:58:52.159
going to fall into a coma tomorrow, but don't

00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:54.300
worry. We've got wonderful life support equipment.

00:58:54.440 --> 00:58:56.820
We'll keep your body going for decades. You wouldn't

00:58:56.820 --> 00:58:59.059
be reassured. You'd say, well, what about me?

00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:02.940
That's just my body. I'm interested in my mind.

00:59:03.579 --> 00:59:06.320
So, you know, it's not a good thing to translate

00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.679
from the one into the other as if that's adding

00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:11.679
anything. It's actually subtracting something

00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:15.960
of great value. What is added by doing that is

00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:18.320
you open up a whole new observational perspective,

00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:21.440
so you can probe this part of nature called Daniel

00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:24.679
Bernoulli, you can probe it and learn new things

00:59:24.679 --> 00:59:27.460
about how it works. And now here's the nub of

00:59:27.460 --> 00:59:30.579
what I'm trying to say. These are observational

00:59:30.579 --> 00:59:33.940
perspectives upon one and the same thing. What

00:59:33.940 --> 00:59:37.900
is that thing? That thing is what you infer,

00:59:38.159 --> 00:59:40.460
the mechanisms, the functional organization,

00:59:40.659 --> 00:59:44.480
what makes it tick, how does it work to have

00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:47.599
two observational perspectives on the underlying

00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:50.699
functional organization. That's what we're seeking

00:59:50.699 --> 00:59:53.780
and every method in science has its strengths

00:59:53.780 --> 00:59:57.159
and its weaknesses. So you want to offset the

00:59:57.159 --> 01:00:00.480
weaknesses of one method. with the strengths

01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:03.619
of another method and vice versa. We need all

01:00:03.619 --> 01:00:05.800
the help we can get in trying to understand this

01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:08.840
part of nature, the functional principles governing

01:00:08.840 --> 01:00:12.519
the instrument of the mind, the apparatus of

01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:15.579
the mind, this functional entity, how it works.

01:00:16.099 --> 01:00:19.340
It's a set of inferences. What are the underlying

01:00:19.340 --> 01:00:21.900
organizing principles? We want to use all the

01:00:21.900 --> 01:00:25.179
data we can get. We don't want to exclude the

01:00:25.179 --> 01:00:27.199
subjective data for the reasons I've already

01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:31.929
said. truly idiotic, but we also obviously want

01:00:31.929 --> 01:00:34.469
to use all the objective data that we can get.

01:00:34.889 --> 01:00:41.070
But they ultimately are all data about the same

01:00:41.070 --> 01:00:44.510
thing, which is how does the mental instrument

01:00:44.510 --> 01:00:48.000
work? And that's what we've, when I speak of

01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:50.659
Freud and the neuroscience of mental healing,

01:00:50.820 --> 01:00:53.099
I'm talking about what have we learned since

01:00:53.099 --> 01:00:56.400
Freud using these methods, these objective physical

01:00:56.400 --> 01:00:58.619
methods that were not available in Freud's day.

01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:02.320
Not instead of which has been the great problem

01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:04.739
with twentieth century and even worse twenty

01:01:04.739 --> 01:01:07.780
first century psychiatry and not instead of what

01:01:07.780 --> 01:01:09.599
we learned from the subjective point of view

01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:11.860
but in addition to what we learned from the subjective

01:01:11.860 --> 01:01:14.320
point of view how does this give us a deeper

01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:18.000
more reliable more detailed and precise understanding

01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:20.820
of what makes us tick and i think we're living

01:01:20.820 --> 01:01:23.179
in a golden age as far as that's concerned i

01:01:23.179 --> 01:01:26.739
think we're entering a golden age where it's.

01:01:26.780 --> 01:01:29.840
Patients are not going to have to be subjected

01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:33.219
to either the one or the other team of football

01:01:33.219 --> 01:01:36.159
supporters. I'm on the psychiatry team, I'm on

01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:43.119
the psychotherapy team. We are entering an era

01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:46.980
where these two sides are increasingly going

01:01:46.980 --> 01:01:50.059
to be working together. for the better understanding

01:01:50.059 --> 01:01:53.059
of what the underlying principles are that govern

01:01:53.059 --> 01:01:57.400
our natures, which is why we are able to make

01:01:57.400 --> 01:01:59.380
sense of exactly the sort of thing that you just

01:01:59.380 --> 01:02:02.960
said. That on the one hand, we know all about

01:02:02.960 --> 01:02:05.679
separation and loss and mourning and all of those

01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:08.320
feelings, which are terribly important things.

01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:11.079
And we've learned a great deal about what matters

01:02:11.079 --> 01:02:13.340
in life, you know, through the study of those

01:02:13.340 --> 01:02:15.940
processes, not only in psychoanalysis, but in

01:02:15.940 --> 01:02:20.260
literature, as you said. too. But now we also

01:02:20.260 --> 01:02:24.119
understand a whole lot of new things about what

01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:26.679
the underlying principles are governing all of

01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:29.400
this from the point of view of studying the chemistries

01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:34.559
and circuitries and anatomies and so on of what

01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:39.579
these things are. It doesn't take away from their

01:02:39.579 --> 01:02:42.860
subjective qualitative, subjective richness.

01:02:43.900 --> 01:02:46.840
It doesn't take away from that at all, but it

01:02:46.840 --> 01:02:50.760
does give us a deeper, more reliable, solid understanding

01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:55.500
of where all of that richness comes from. Yeah,

01:02:55.719 --> 01:02:59.260
I think an example that I thought of reading

01:02:59.260 --> 01:03:03.800
the book is according to Pinksepp's seven primary

01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:06.239
emotional needs system, rage is one of them.

01:03:06.260 --> 01:03:08.940
You mentioned rage earlier. I've heard a lot

01:03:08.940 --> 01:03:11.960
of therapists or I see books talk about anger

01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:14.880
as a secondary emotion and let's see if we can

01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:17.599
find out what's under the anger and in some ways

01:03:17.599 --> 01:03:20.920
if anger is a part of rage and that's a primary

01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:24.239
emotion that and a need it's kind of minimizing

01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:26.940
to say like well maybe it's not anger maybe you're

01:03:26.940 --> 01:03:30.199
sad or maybe you're hurt. That was kind of an

01:03:30.199 --> 01:03:32.039
example that I thought of if you know some of

01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:35.780
the the neuroscience or some of the workings

01:03:35.780 --> 01:03:38.909
of the brain you might be able to extrapolate

01:03:38.909 --> 01:03:41.789
that and have a different, the whole theory will

01:03:41.789 --> 01:03:44.710
be different. And I don't, I have so much, I

01:03:44.710 --> 01:03:46.750
don't know where to go from here because I have

01:03:46.750 --> 01:03:50.449
a lot that I, we have about 30 minutes. On that

01:03:50.449 --> 01:03:53.610
you talked about, in your book you said, having

01:03:53.610 --> 01:03:55.809
worked a good deal on the drives, I sometimes

01:03:55.809 --> 01:03:58.110
get to be in my bonnet about how useful it is

01:03:58.110 --> 01:04:01.150
to know what they are drives to. And I often

01:04:01.150 --> 01:04:03.750
wish psychoanalysts paid more attention to developments

01:04:03.750 --> 01:04:07.739
and neuroscience generally. Maybe quickly, is

01:04:07.739 --> 01:04:10.360
that kind of an example that I gave of if you

01:04:10.360 --> 01:04:12.119
know some of the neuroscience, you're going to

01:04:12.119 --> 01:04:14.039
have a different theory. Like, is that kind of

01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:18.360
what you're thinking there? I think, let me say,

01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:21.719
let me start with where you started with anger.

01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:26.380
I think from the point of view of a neurobiologist

01:04:26.380 --> 01:04:29.199
who knows anything about the emotional circuitry

01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:33.099
mechanisms of the brain. You would have a hard

01:04:33.099 --> 01:04:36.400
time agreeing that anger is a secondary emotion.

01:04:36.940 --> 01:04:42.420
There is abundant evidence that there is a circuit,

01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:46.260
and they wouldn't put it too concretely. By a

01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:50.119
circuit, I don't mean a little... line of neurons

01:04:50.119 --> 01:04:55.219
connecting to each other. I mean, networks which

01:04:55.219 --> 01:04:59.500
are mediated by chemicals which function. They're

01:04:59.500 --> 01:05:01.739
neuromodulators. They're not neurotransmitters.

01:05:01.900 --> 01:05:05.599
They don't pass messages. They kind of wash over

01:05:05.599 --> 01:05:12.980
whole aggregates of neural processing. So, they're

01:05:12.980 --> 01:05:17.980
more soup -like than circuit -like. But let me

01:05:17.980 --> 01:05:21.380
come back to it. There is a circuit for rage.

01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:26.559
You see rage not only in any mammal, but in fact,

01:05:27.719 --> 01:05:29.400
and mammals, by the way, have been on this planet

01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:31.840
for 200 and something million years, so it's

01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:34.460
a rather ancient circuit. But when it comes to

01:05:34.460 --> 01:05:37.980
rage, you see it in other vertebrates too, so

01:05:37.980 --> 01:05:42.070
it's even older than 200 million years old. It's

01:05:42.070 --> 01:05:44.989
a very basic emotion. There's nothing secondary

01:05:44.989 --> 01:05:48.429
about it. So there's an example of what we've

01:05:48.429 --> 01:05:50.489
learned from neuroscience. You can say to any

01:05:50.489 --> 01:05:53.449
psychoanalyst or any other psychological theorist

01:05:53.449 --> 01:05:55.590
or philosopher, you can say, well, you might

01:05:55.590 --> 01:05:57.489
think it's a secondary emotion, but let me tell

01:05:57.489 --> 01:05:59.409
you, mate, he has all the evidence for why you're

01:05:59.409 --> 01:06:04.289
wrong. On the other hand, I'm just taking one

01:06:04.289 --> 01:06:08.489
example here. There is a psychoanalyst, rather

01:06:08.489 --> 01:06:11.909
a clever one. now deceased. His name was Wilfred

01:06:11.909 --> 01:06:16.530
Bion, and Bion had this adage, a good object

01:06:16.530 --> 01:06:19.309
absent is a bad object present. Now, that sounds

01:06:19.309 --> 01:06:20.949
a little bit like, what the hell does that mean?

01:06:21.230 --> 01:06:24.329
This is what it means. When your mother, for

01:06:24.329 --> 01:06:27.030
example, an attachment figure, let's say it's

01:06:27.030 --> 01:06:29.920
your mother, when your mother is missing in action.

01:06:30.619 --> 01:06:33.300
When you're longing for her, it's, mommy, where

01:06:33.300 --> 01:06:36.940
are you? That's a good object absent. This lovely

01:06:36.940 --> 01:06:40.079
thing that I need, where is she? On the other

01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:42.219
hand, there's the bad object present, which is,

01:06:42.320 --> 01:06:45.300
mommy, where are you? For God's sake, don't you

01:06:45.300 --> 01:06:48.500
know I need you? You're frustrating my knee.

01:06:50.559 --> 01:06:53.920
There are two circuits involved here. A good

01:06:53.920 --> 01:06:58.739
object absent. The longing for this nurturing,

01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:02.900
caring figure who you love and whose love you

01:07:02.900 --> 01:07:07.300
need is also, at this point, letting you down,

01:07:07.519 --> 01:07:10.599
frustrating you. Whatever else she's doing, it's

01:07:10.599 --> 01:07:15.199
standing between her and what you need. She's

01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:17.619
neglecting you. She's abandoned you. She's frustrating

01:07:17.619 --> 01:07:20.239
you. She's not doing what you need her to do

01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:27.880
and so you're frustrated and angry. and longing.

01:07:28.420 --> 01:07:31.039
You said in your example there, the therapist

01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:33.639
says, well, you're not really angry. Actually,

01:07:34.260 --> 01:07:39.340
you're sad. That's not incompatible with what

01:07:39.340 --> 01:07:42.599
we've learned about the basic emotions in the

01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:47.239
brain, that they can be co -activated. And this

01:07:47.239 --> 01:07:49.460
is an instance of exactly what I said earlier

01:07:49.460 --> 01:07:51.880
in terms of conflict. This is one of the great

01:07:51.880 --> 01:07:55.800
difficulties. in learning how to meet our emotional

01:07:55.800 --> 01:07:57.619
needs is they conflict with each other. And I

01:07:57.619 --> 01:07:59.840
gave exactly that example, the conflict between

01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:04.699
attachment needs and rage. And how we go about

01:08:04.699 --> 01:08:08.119
resolving that is no small part. There you have

01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:10.639
a secondary emotion, by the way. The secondary

01:08:10.639 --> 01:08:14.639
emotion is guilt. So a very common solution to

01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:18.560
that problem is, I can't attack this person whose

01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:21.439
love I need. I feel like attacking her, but I

01:08:21.439 --> 01:08:26.539
can't. I have to inhibit my rage and it gets

01:08:26.539 --> 01:08:29.300
inhibited by being turned inwards. I am bad.

01:08:29.880 --> 01:08:33.840
When I feel like this, it's me who's bad. It's

01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:36.699
not her who's bad, I'm bad. And so that's guilt.

01:08:37.859 --> 01:08:41.979
And so guilt enables you to maintain the attachment,

01:08:42.300 --> 01:08:46.479
but at the expense of attacking yourself rather

01:08:46.479 --> 01:08:51.399
than attacking. What we do in psychotherapy is

01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:53.680
to help first of all the patient to become aware

01:08:53.680 --> 01:08:56.880
of what we call ambivalence. It's hard for people

01:08:56.880 --> 01:08:59.220
to admit it because it's terrifying to recognize,

01:08:59.420 --> 01:09:02.899
oh my God, you know, actually I have all of these

01:09:02.899 --> 01:09:05.239
terribly hostile feelings, destructive feelings

01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:07.460
toward this person whose love I need more than

01:09:07.460 --> 01:09:10.359
anything else in the world to become aware of

01:09:10.359 --> 01:09:13.460
the conflict. is what opens the possibility of

01:09:13.460 --> 01:09:15.800
finding another way of resolving it. It's not

01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:18.279
the only way to resolve it is to attack yourself.

01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:23.220
There are other ways of resolving that you can,

01:09:23.899 --> 01:09:29.520
for example, make reasonably firm demands about

01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:32.800
what it is that you need without actually attacking

01:09:32.800 --> 01:09:35.699
the object. In other words, healthy aggression

01:09:35.699 --> 01:09:39.510
is just There's self -preservation, just standing

01:09:39.510 --> 01:09:43.569
up for your own reason. And when you're a child,

01:09:43.590 --> 01:09:46.569
you know, because the rate, by the way, let me

01:09:46.569 --> 01:09:50.090
go back to that. We were speaking about whether

01:09:50.090 --> 01:09:53.430
anger is a secondary emotion. Look at any baby.

01:09:54.369 --> 01:09:59.390
When they're frustrated, what do they do? Absolute

01:09:59.390 --> 01:10:04.729
blind rate. The conflicts that we're talking

01:10:04.729 --> 01:10:07.770
about in a young child has these unbridled emotions,

01:10:08.149 --> 01:10:10.409
and they have to come up with desperate measures

01:10:10.409 --> 01:10:13.750
for like, oh my God, my destructiveness is absolutely

01:10:13.750 --> 01:10:16.390
out of control. Let me put a lid on that immediately.

01:10:16.590 --> 01:10:20.930
I'm a bad boy. That may have been the best you

01:10:20.930 --> 01:10:23.090
could do then, but you're not in that situation

01:10:23.090 --> 01:10:25.069
anymore now, and you can come up with much more

01:10:25.069 --> 01:10:27.630
measured ways of dealing with your own destruction,

01:10:27.770 --> 01:10:30.869
your own aggression. which doesn't have the massive

01:10:30.869 --> 01:10:34.909
consequences that in your childish imagination

01:10:34.909 --> 01:10:38.689
you think it does. I'm beginning to meander.

01:10:38.829 --> 01:10:41.470
I hope I've answered the point. Yes, no. Great.

01:10:41.510 --> 01:10:46.449
Thank you. One of the things I wanted to ask

01:10:46.449 --> 01:10:51.470
you about. So, let's see. The only cure is due

01:10:51.470 --> 01:10:55.289
to come out on August. You've already done quite

01:10:55.289 --> 01:10:57.829
a few talks and podcasts on it. There's been

01:10:57.829 --> 01:11:02.789
some reviews written on it. I have a friend and

01:11:02.789 --> 01:11:06.689
colleague who's an Adlerian and I found this

01:11:06.689 --> 01:11:09.869
professed Adlerian who wrote a short article

01:11:09.869 --> 01:11:15.310
in The Guardian on the only cure. I don't know

01:11:15.310 --> 01:11:18.689
how many Adlerians would agree with... the author

01:11:18.689 --> 01:11:21.789
of this article, but I just want to read it and

01:11:21.789 --> 01:11:23.590
get your thoughts on it if that's okay. Is that

01:11:23.590 --> 01:11:27.930
okay? Sure. Thanks. Okay. He says, Psalms argues

01:11:27.930 --> 01:11:30.189
for the long -standing and profound effects of

01:11:30.189 --> 01:11:32.710
early life experiences that keep people under

01:11:32.710 --> 01:11:35.729
the intoxicating influence of contextually inappropriate

01:11:35.729 --> 01:11:39.119
emotions. This deterministic framework positions

01:11:39.119 --> 01:11:41.739
individuals as passive victims of their buried

01:11:41.739 --> 01:11:45.479
past. Yet Alfred Adler recognized a century ago

01:11:45.479 --> 01:11:47.859
that we are not prisoners of early experiences

01:11:47.859 --> 01:11:51.399
but active interpreters of them capable of reconstructing

01:11:51.399 --> 01:11:54.359
meaning through insight and choice. What's most

01:11:54.359 --> 01:11:56.819
striking about Somsa's defense is what's absent.

01:11:57.399 --> 01:12:00.380
Any consideration of community, social contribution,

01:12:00.859 --> 01:12:03.840
or cooperative relationships. The focus remains

01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:06.729
relentlessly introspective. internal drives,

01:12:06.930 --> 01:12:10.369
buried conflicts, aggressive impulses. This is

01:12:10.369 --> 01:12:14.930
possessive individualism, the atomized self wrestling

01:12:14.930 --> 01:12:17.430
with internal demons rather than a social being

01:12:17.430 --> 01:12:19.850
finding meaning through connection and contribution

01:12:19.850 --> 01:12:22.630
to others. The question isn't whether neuroscience

01:12:22.630 --> 01:12:25.390
has proved Freud right, but why we keep trying

01:12:25.390 --> 01:12:28.329
to salvage a system that pathologizes human nature

01:12:28.329 --> 01:12:30.569
when we have approaches that encourage human

01:12:30.569 --> 01:12:36.560
potential. I read that and I'll get your thoughts,

01:12:36.979 --> 01:12:39.840
but I've heard, I've read some Carl Jung too,

01:12:39.899 --> 01:12:43.159
and he critiques Freud for being like reductionistic

01:12:43.159 --> 01:12:47.939
or negativistic or pathologizing humans instead

01:12:47.939 --> 01:12:49.960
of seeing their potential and their growth and

01:12:49.960 --> 01:12:55.579
all of it as like a movement forward. And I know,

01:12:55.600 --> 01:12:57.899
I don't know how much of that you, but what do

01:12:57.899 --> 01:13:01.659
you think of that response? And do you agree

01:13:01.659 --> 01:13:04.810
that you're leaving things out like that? So

01:13:04.810 --> 01:13:08.729
I will answer that initially poetically, and

01:13:08.729 --> 01:13:15.270
then I'll answer it properly. There was the first

01:13:15.270 --> 01:13:18.529
woman to take a seat in the Houses of Parliament

01:13:18.529 --> 01:13:21.970
in England, or in Great Britain. Her name was

01:13:21.970 --> 01:13:27.439
Nancy Astor and she was not wholly welcomed by

01:13:27.439 --> 01:13:31.060
the gentleman in parliament, the first woman.

01:13:32.140 --> 01:13:34.819
Winston Churchill, who was prime minister at

01:13:34.819 --> 01:13:37.880
the time, famously said it felt like there was

01:13:37.880 --> 01:13:42.739
a woman in the men's change room. She was attacked

01:13:42.739 --> 01:13:48.800
in the media, left, right, and center, and this

01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:51.640
is how she responded. She said, I don't care

01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:54.439
what they write about me in the newspapers, as

01:13:54.439 --> 01:13:59.659
long as it's not true. That's the attitude that

01:13:59.659 --> 01:14:06.079
I try to adopt, to emulate. I think that you

01:14:06.079 --> 01:14:10.520
must read what people say and if what they're

01:14:10.520 --> 01:14:13.000
saying is true, you must take it on board because

01:14:13.000 --> 01:14:17.939
you can be wrong. and you need to be called out

01:14:17.939 --> 01:14:21.140
when you're wrong. But if what your critics say

01:14:21.140 --> 01:14:24.239
about you is manifestly untrue, then it should

01:14:24.239 --> 01:14:27.439
just be water off a duck's back. So I'll now

01:14:27.439 --> 01:14:29.640
start answering your question properly, starting

01:14:29.640 --> 01:14:32.079
with a more general statement and then going

01:14:32.079 --> 01:14:38.180
more to the particulars. I was expecting massive

01:14:38.180 --> 01:14:44.979
pushback from the primarily from psychopharmacologists.

01:14:45.500 --> 01:14:49.260
I thought that my book was for the most part

01:14:49.260 --> 01:14:55.859
a defense of psychotherapy in an era where psychopharmacology

01:14:55.859 --> 01:15:00.140
is seen as the kind of go -to, scientifically

01:15:00.140 --> 01:15:05.399
proven approach to treating the chemical imbalances

01:15:05.399 --> 01:15:08.739
that we're supposed to suffer from. I've been

01:15:08.739 --> 01:15:13.140
very surprised on that score. I've spoken to

01:15:13.140 --> 01:15:16.739
a number of purely psychiatric audiences. I've

01:15:16.739 --> 01:15:21.520
been on a number of psychiatric podcasts, including

01:15:21.520 --> 01:15:26.640
one called Drunk Science hosted by David Nutt.

01:15:26.779 --> 01:15:29.399
He's kind of like Mr. Psychopharmacology in Britain.

01:15:32.350 --> 01:15:36.149
I had a review in the British Journal of Psychiatry,

01:15:36.869 --> 01:15:38.970
because my book has already come out in England.

01:15:39.750 --> 01:15:43.489
It's coming out a little later in America. And

01:15:43.489 --> 01:15:49.189
the review was uniformly positive. So the response

01:15:49.189 --> 01:15:52.189
I've had from the psychopharmacologists, from

01:15:52.189 --> 01:15:56.289
biological psychiatry in the main, well, actually

01:15:56.289 --> 01:16:00.149
at this point, I've only had positive responses

01:16:00.149 --> 01:16:03.010
from them, which is Absolutely not what I expected.

01:16:05.069 --> 01:16:07.909
The gist of it has been, I'm glad somebody's

01:16:07.909 --> 01:16:10.569
saying this. It's true. We need to take this

01:16:10.569 --> 01:16:13.789
on board. We need to change tack in psychiatry.

01:16:13.869 --> 01:16:17.010
We need a different approach. Not that we must

01:16:17.010 --> 01:16:19.829
abandon our existing treatments, but that we

01:16:19.829 --> 01:16:21.850
need to understand what their limitations are

01:16:21.850 --> 01:16:24.149
and we need to understand what's curative and

01:16:24.149 --> 01:16:27.590
what's palliative. On the other hand, from the

01:16:27.590 --> 01:16:32.229
psychoanalysts and psychotherapists, who I thought

01:16:32.229 --> 01:16:38.850
would say, yay, the cavalry have arrived. Somebody

01:16:38.850 --> 01:16:41.909
from the neurosciences is saying that we've actually

01:16:41.909 --> 01:16:45.010
got the scientific big guns on our side. No,

01:16:45.630 --> 01:16:51.149
it's been one school after another defending

01:16:51.149 --> 01:16:57.020
their particular turf. Freud had a concept called

01:16:57.020 --> 01:17:00.359
the narcissism of minor differences. It's like

01:17:00.359 --> 01:17:02.359
the Northern Irish and the Southern Irish are

01:17:02.359 --> 01:17:05.100
clearly the same bloody people, but there's one

01:17:05.100 --> 01:17:07.000
thing that's different and everything's about

01:17:07.000 --> 01:17:10.399
that. The same with, let's say, Greeks and Turks,

01:17:11.880 --> 01:17:14.180
or dare I say even Palestinians and Israelis

01:17:14.180 --> 01:17:20.989
and so on. I won't give any more examples. I

01:17:20.989 --> 01:17:23.050
think I'm going to get into hot water. But the

01:17:23.050 --> 01:17:26.010
point is, people who have so much in common,

01:17:26.590 --> 01:17:28.810
all that they can focus on is these teeny things

01:17:28.810 --> 01:17:32.529
that they differ about. And this is how it is

01:17:32.529 --> 01:17:34.869
with these different schools, the Jungians versus

01:17:34.869 --> 01:17:37.710
the Freudians and the Adlerians versus the Freudians

01:17:37.710 --> 01:17:42.029
and whatnot. And they are echo chambers. It's

01:17:42.029 --> 01:17:44.850
the same as in the political arena. And it's

01:17:44.850 --> 01:17:48.039
really science deserves better. You know, we

01:17:48.039 --> 01:17:50.739
can't carry on like this. It's not a matter of

01:17:50.739 --> 01:17:53.060
which team you support. You know, it's a matter

01:17:53.060 --> 01:17:57.699
of what does the evidence say? And so now, yeah,

01:17:57.699 --> 01:18:01.380
you have an Adlerian, and you also alluded to

01:18:01.380 --> 01:18:04.199
Jungians. The Jungians saying, oh, the Freudians

01:18:04.199 --> 01:18:07.380
pathologize everything. And the Adlerian saying,

01:18:07.399 --> 01:18:09.239
oh, it's just like you're a passive victim of

01:18:09.239 --> 01:18:11.060
what happened to you. You're not an active agent.

01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:13.859
And all that matters is the individual. What

01:18:13.859 --> 01:18:17.760
about society? None of that. is what I've argued

01:18:17.760 --> 01:18:22.100
for. They're hallucinating, you know. It's because

01:18:22.100 --> 01:18:25.180
they've got this kind of fixed, you know, I am

01:18:25.180 --> 01:18:27.279
an Adlerian and the Freudians are bad and they're

01:18:27.279 --> 01:18:29.279
bad in this particular way. This guy smells like

01:18:29.279 --> 01:18:31.939
a Freudian, so I'm going for him. The problem

01:18:31.939 --> 01:18:35.579
is, you know, I attack the Freudians too. When

01:18:35.579 --> 01:18:38.479
I say attack, I mean, where they're wrong, you

01:18:38.479 --> 01:18:42.340
know, where the evidence, I disagreed with Freud

01:18:42.340 --> 01:18:44.739
and some rather fundamental grounds in this book.

01:18:45.180 --> 01:18:48.710
So I'm not any more a Freudian than the Jungian

01:18:48.710 --> 01:18:51.930
than an Adlerian than a relational, Lacanian,

01:18:52.189 --> 01:18:56.210
whatever you like, object relation. I think that

01:18:56.210 --> 01:18:59.189
we deserve better than that. What we need is

01:18:59.189 --> 01:19:02.869
evidence where we can say, okay, so in this respect,

01:19:02.989 --> 01:19:04.630
you were right, and in this respect, you were

01:19:04.630 --> 01:19:06.189
right, and here you were wrong, and here you

01:19:06.189 --> 01:19:10.600
were wrong, and also let us not fall. prey to

01:19:10.600 --> 01:19:13.119
what's called the arrogance of the present. It's

01:19:13.119 --> 01:19:15.479
not as if now we have the answers, it's just

01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:18.140
now we have better answers than we had then and

01:19:18.140 --> 01:19:21.840
they are more integrative. These psychotherapeutic

01:19:21.840 --> 01:19:25.600
schools have got to get over themselves. It's

01:19:25.600 --> 01:19:31.439
just ludicrous that they're combating under banners

01:19:31.439 --> 01:19:39.159
of certain It's silly. So think about what I've

01:19:39.159 --> 01:19:41.239
said to you in just this discussion we've had

01:19:41.239 --> 01:19:45.699
today. Where did I say that we are passive? I

01:19:45.699 --> 01:19:48.039
said, you know, we're finding ways to meet our

01:19:48.039 --> 01:19:50.119
emotional needs for God's sake. It's an active

01:19:50.119 --> 01:19:54.050
process. Where did I leave aside the social?

01:19:54.250 --> 01:19:57.810
I said, economic forces, for example, the fact

01:19:57.810 --> 01:20:00.210
that it's harder if your parents are poor than

01:20:00.210 --> 01:20:03.510
if your parents are well -heeled. When I spoke

01:20:03.510 --> 01:20:06.369
about play and social dominance and hierarchies

01:20:06.369 --> 01:20:09.829
and status and hello, that's about the social.

01:20:11.319 --> 01:20:14.199
You know, there's no way I'm ignoring or leaving.

01:20:14.619 --> 01:20:16.979
Where did I pathologize when I said through no

01:20:16.979 --> 01:20:18.619
fault of your own, you come up with the best

01:20:18.619 --> 01:20:21.159
solution you can. You know, what's pathological

01:20:21.159 --> 01:20:23.039
about that? It's saying, you know, we're all

01:20:23.039 --> 01:20:25.920
in the same boat and sometimes it's harder, sometimes

01:20:25.920 --> 01:20:29.060
it's easier. It's just not true that I'm pathologizing,

01:20:29.060 --> 01:20:35.350
you know? And so I can only... I mean, I use

01:20:35.350 --> 01:20:38.109
the phrase in the AI sense of the word, like

01:20:38.109 --> 01:20:40.289
the chatbots. I'm saying they're hallucinating.

01:20:40.970 --> 01:20:43.770
They've got a generative model that's producing

01:20:43.770 --> 01:20:50.050
data that isn't there. But I go back to Nancy

01:20:50.050 --> 01:20:52.810
Astor. I don't care what they say about me in

01:20:52.810 --> 01:20:55.569
the newspapers as long as it's not true. I think

01:20:55.569 --> 01:20:58.590
that what's said in this book needs to be said.

01:20:59.390 --> 01:21:03.020
And although I was bracing myself, for serious

01:21:03.020 --> 01:21:05.520
pushback from the psychopharmacological side.

01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:08.739
I didn't get it, but you can't say the sorts

01:21:08.739 --> 01:21:11.699
of things that I've said here, which is not taking

01:21:11.699 --> 01:21:19.720
sides with anyone. There was an article written

01:21:19.720 --> 01:21:23.720
in Newsweek magazine some years ago. I still

01:21:23.720 --> 01:21:25.500
remember the journalist's name. His name was

01:21:25.500 --> 01:21:28.680
Fred Gutel. And he ended the article by saying

01:21:28.680 --> 01:21:32.119
that what Mark Solms is doing, it's not a matter

01:21:32.119 --> 01:21:35.079
of proving Freud right or wrong, but rather of

01:21:35.079 --> 01:21:38.520
finishing the job. And that's the philosophy

01:21:38.520 --> 01:21:48.279
that I abide by. Yeah, that's neat. Yeah. Okay,

01:21:48.680 --> 01:21:52.180
so I have a few rapid response questions to throw

01:21:52.180 --> 01:21:55.500
at you. So these maybe take... Anywhere from

01:21:55.500 --> 01:21:57.720
30 seconds to like a minute to answer. We've

01:21:57.720 --> 01:22:01.539
got like nine minutes here, okay? Should a true

01:22:01.539 --> 01:22:05.800
Freudian scholar know German? Oh, it can only

01:22:05.800 --> 01:22:10.260
help, but it's not necessary. Okay. Do you agree

01:22:10.260 --> 01:22:14.039
with Freud on psychic determinism? Is that a

01:22:14.039 --> 01:22:19.920
thing that you would agree with? That's a very

01:22:19.920 --> 01:22:23.359
interesting question. Yes, I do. I believe in

01:22:23.359 --> 01:22:27.060
a deterministic universe, but I believe in the

01:22:27.060 --> 01:22:29.140
universe there is a part of the universe that

01:22:29.140 --> 01:22:32.340
is subjective, and from the point of view of

01:22:32.340 --> 01:22:35.500
the subject, we are making choices. They're constrained

01:22:35.500 --> 01:22:39.039
probabilistically, but I think what Freud called

01:22:39.039 --> 01:22:42.920
psychical reality, in other words, the subjective

01:22:42.920 --> 01:22:46.899
reality, is part of nature and it exists. And

01:22:46.899 --> 01:22:49.159
yeah, we are experiencing the evidence for it

01:22:49.159 --> 01:22:53.039
right away. Well, what do you think about the

01:22:53.039 --> 01:23:00.399
psychodynamic diagnostic manual? I wrote a blurb

01:23:00.399 --> 01:23:03.939
on the back cover. Um, uh, endorsing it, uh,

01:23:04.119 --> 01:23:06.420
I think that it's a darn side better than the

01:23:06.420 --> 01:23:09.340
DSM. Uh, but, uh, that doesn't mean it's the

01:23:09.340 --> 01:23:11.399
last word on the matter by any means. If I were

01:23:11.399 --> 01:23:13.800
to write it, I would write it slightly differently.

01:23:14.899 --> 01:23:18.340
Would you write it classifying like the seven

01:23:18.340 --> 01:23:21.720
primary emotional systems and, or how would you

01:23:21.720 --> 01:23:24.939
write it differently? I agree with exactly that.

01:23:26.840 --> 01:23:30.640
The only grail in biological psychiatry is that

01:23:30.640 --> 01:23:32.979
we've been looking since the DSM -3 when they

01:23:32.979 --> 01:23:36.159
moved away from psychoanalysis in American psychiatry.

01:23:36.699 --> 01:23:39.720
They've been looking for, well, two things actually.

01:23:39.899 --> 01:23:43.239
The first was we don't want to commit to psychoanalytic

01:23:43.239 --> 01:23:46.279
or any other theory. We want to just have a theoretical.

01:23:47.179 --> 01:23:51.739
description. That is an illusion. You can't have

01:23:51.739 --> 01:23:56.659
no theory. You might want to abandon psychoanalytic

01:23:56.659 --> 01:23:58.239
theory, but then you've got to replace it with

01:23:58.239 --> 01:24:00.760
a better theory. The other thing that they've

01:24:00.760 --> 01:24:04.659
been trying to do is to find a new biological

01:24:04.659 --> 01:24:10.899
basis rather than these conventional categories.

01:24:11.500 --> 01:24:20.039
I think that the best bet for a taxonomy, that

01:24:20.039 --> 01:24:24.300
is to say, a classification of psychiatric disorders

01:24:24.300 --> 01:24:28.659
on biological grounds, the best basis is the

01:24:28.659 --> 01:24:31.579
seven basic emotional needs of the human being.

01:24:34.039 --> 01:24:38.619
That would be cool if you want to publish something

01:24:38.619 --> 01:24:43.520
like that. You said in the book, I think it's

01:24:43.520 --> 01:24:46.500
such a cool thing to be able to say that out

01:24:46.500 --> 01:24:48.460
of all the people on the planet, you probably

01:24:48.460 --> 01:24:50.359
know Freud the best having spent so much time

01:24:50.359 --> 01:24:55.600
with him. Do you ever consider or would you consider

01:24:55.600 --> 01:24:58.840
like writing a book on your understanding of

01:24:58.840 --> 01:25:00.899
Freud, what he got right, what he got wrong,

01:25:01.760 --> 01:25:04.960
your work with Chako analysis and moving toward

01:25:04.960 --> 01:25:08.859
finishing the job almost like you've just revised

01:25:08.859 --> 01:25:13.340
the standard edition. Would you almost like a

01:25:13.279 --> 01:25:17.720
Like a Freud primary or like a reader or like

01:25:17.720 --> 01:25:22.880
a, like this is the takeaway type of book. Um,

01:25:23.220 --> 01:25:27.159
well, that just, you've partly said it. I just

01:25:27.159 --> 01:25:30.020
want to make sure that our listeners get it.

01:25:30.140 --> 01:25:33.380
When you say that, uh, uh, I think quoting me

01:25:33.380 --> 01:25:36.479
that I think, uh, I know Freud better than any

01:25:36.479 --> 01:25:39.140
other person alive today. It is because I spent

01:25:39.140 --> 01:25:43.859
29 years, uh, revising. the English translation

01:25:43.859 --> 01:25:46.420
of Freud's psychological works in 24 volumes.

01:25:46.939 --> 01:25:50.180
If you want to translate somebody sentence by

01:25:50.180 --> 01:25:52.039
sentence, you need to understand what they're

01:25:52.039 --> 01:25:57.260
trying to say here so that you can release the

01:25:57.260 --> 01:26:01.239
thought from the German and encase the same thought

01:26:01.239 --> 01:26:04.340
in English. I really do believe that I understand

01:26:04.340 --> 01:26:06.779
Freud better than anybody else and that I've

01:26:06.779 --> 01:26:09.159
spent more time with him than anybody else alive

01:26:09.159 --> 01:26:14.380
today for that reason. What I'm now doing, bizarrely,

01:26:14.840 --> 01:26:17.060
is what I actually wanted to do in the first

01:26:17.060 --> 01:26:19.500
place. I never wanted to revise the translation

01:26:19.500 --> 01:26:23.140
of Freud's psychological works. I wanted to translate

01:26:23.140 --> 01:26:27.399
from scratch Freud's neurological works and neuroscientific

01:26:27.399 --> 01:26:29.659
works. People don't know Freud was a neuroscientist

01:26:29.659 --> 01:26:34.539
and a bloody good one. From the 1870s until 1900,

01:26:35.060 --> 01:26:37.260
he published, if you include minor works, over

01:26:37.260 --> 01:26:40.899
200 titles in neuroscience. So I originally wanted

01:26:40.899 --> 01:26:43.939
to translate that work into English. Then I was

01:26:43.939 --> 01:26:47.340
distracted by this business of revising his psychological

01:26:47.340 --> 01:26:50.000
works. And I've now gone back to what I wanted

01:26:50.000 --> 01:26:53.199
to do in the first instance. And I believe by

01:26:53.199 --> 01:26:57.140
the end of 2027, I'll be done with that because

01:26:57.140 --> 01:27:00.699
I had already started in the 1980s and 1990s.

01:27:00.779 --> 01:27:02.880
I'd started and then, you know, for 30 years

01:27:02.880 --> 01:27:05.819
I was distracted. So that's what I'm doing now.

01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:11.340
If I'm still alive after that, then maybe I could

01:27:11.340 --> 01:27:13.479
do something along the lines of what you said.

01:27:13.720 --> 01:27:17.789
I'll tell you. This book, The Only Cure, is a

01:27:17.789 --> 01:27:21.649
kind of an interim step in that direction. It

01:27:21.649 --> 01:27:27.270
is my best effort to take stock of what did Freud

01:27:27.270 --> 01:27:30.409
get right? What did he get wrong? Where should

01:27:30.409 --> 01:27:37.539
we head to from here? It's not a condensed concentrated

01:27:37.539 --> 01:27:41.840
thing. It's a meditation on it. And as you said

01:27:41.840 --> 01:27:43.739
at the very beginning, telling stories about

01:27:43.739 --> 01:27:46.300
patients and telling stories about my own experience

01:27:46.300 --> 01:27:48.819
and all of that. So it's an accessible, readable

01:27:48.819 --> 01:27:51.659
book rather than the kind of thing that you have

01:27:51.659 --> 01:27:56.760
in mind. What I do want to do before I leave

01:27:56.760 --> 01:28:02.880
this earth is a book that I have in mind, the

01:28:02.880 --> 01:28:05.859
title the language of neuropsychoanalysis. In

01:28:05.859 --> 01:28:09.039
other words, I want to go through basic concepts

01:28:09.039 --> 01:28:13.779
and basic psychoanalytical concepts and translate

01:28:13.779 --> 01:28:17.020
them into neuroscientific terms and basic neuroscientific

01:28:17.020 --> 01:28:19.539
concepts and translate them so that we can have

01:28:19.539 --> 01:28:23.380
a sort of a Rosetta Stone, a kind of a dictionary

01:28:23.380 --> 01:28:26.739
that will enable us to bridge these two great

01:28:26.739 --> 01:28:29.479
traditions to make them understandable to each

01:28:29.479 --> 01:28:32.640
other. Yeah, that would be great. There is a

01:28:32.640 --> 01:28:34.979
few examples kind of of that in this book, The

01:28:34.979 --> 01:28:37.479
Only Cure, where you took what Freud said and

01:28:37.479 --> 01:28:40.680
then you kind of translated it into a modern

01:28:40.680 --> 01:28:42.840
day understanding. And yeah, that was really

01:28:42.840 --> 01:28:45.140
neat to see that. So that would be, I think,

01:28:45.560 --> 01:28:49.359
great. Well, Professor Solms, our time is up.

01:28:49.680 --> 01:28:51.439
I want to thank you so much for coming on again.

01:28:51.579 --> 01:28:53.819
It was an honor and pleasure to speak with you

01:28:53.819 --> 01:28:57.800
today. For me too, thank you very much for your

01:28:57.800 --> 01:29:00.939
interest and for giving me the opportunity of

01:29:00.939 --> 01:29:03.619
setting up my stall. I've enjoyed our conversation

01:29:03.619 --> 01:29:04.880
very much. Thanks, Daniel.