WEBVTT 00:00:03.950 --> 00:00:06.750 Hello and thank you for joining us. Today I have 00:00:06.750 --> 00:00:10.609 Mihaela. She is a student at the Freudian School 00:00:10.609 --> 00:00:13.669 of Quebec, and she is a clinician who practices 00:00:13.669 --> 00:00:16.309 psychoanalytically. Mihaela, thanks for joining 00:00:16.309 --> 00:00:20.309 us today. I think it's funny to hear you introduce 00:00:20.309 --> 00:00:24.149 me as a student, but I guess we are all students 00:00:24.149 --> 00:00:27.289 of psychoanalysis to one degree or another, or 00:00:27.289 --> 00:00:29.829 students of our own unconscious, if you will. 00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:33.579 Oh, yes. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be 00:00:33.579 --> 00:00:41.640 here. Good. Yeah, I found you because so I was 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:45.240 talking with Dr. Donald Carvath and we were talking 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:49.179 about kind of Freud and Christianity and ideas 00:00:49.179 --> 00:00:52.619 surrounding that. And he mentioned something 00:00:52.619 --> 00:00:56.439 along the lines of Freud had contempt for Christianity 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:59.719 and Freud mocked the Christian love command. 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:05.280 And so I, that in some ways it wouldn't surprise 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:07.299 me. In some ways I was like, I don't know. I 00:01:07.299 --> 00:01:10.060 can't, I can't recall for certain. So I kind 00:01:10.060 --> 00:01:13.180 of started looking into some of those writings, 00:01:13.180 --> 00:01:16.739 but I wanted to get some help. And so I found 00:01:16.739 --> 00:01:21.280 you and so I emailed you, sent you some questions. 00:01:21.780 --> 00:01:27.540 And so here we are. So. And how did you find 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:33.359 me exactly? Was a I think I googled, you know 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:36.879 Freudian psychoanalysts or Freudian school of 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:40.739 psychoanalysis or something and then I Found 00:01:40.739 --> 00:01:44.340 a link to a blog that you wrote I believed and 00:01:44.340 --> 00:01:47.319 you wrote a blog on love and hate. I think it 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:51.340 was So I started thinking this is this is my 00:01:51.340 --> 00:01:56.430 person I see, yes. That was my practical psychoanalysis 00:01:56.430 --> 00:02:03.730 blog that I used to write for Psych Central before 00:02:03.730 --> 00:02:06.950 it got purchased by, there was a different person 00:02:06.950 --> 00:02:09.669 who was the editor at the time and then it got 00:02:09.669 --> 00:02:12.610 purchased. And so I believe this article now 00:02:12.610 --> 00:02:16.050 maybe made one of the few that remained, which 00:02:16.050 --> 00:02:18.930 actually I only wrote the introduction to that 00:02:18.930 --> 00:02:24.020 article. that was written by the American Psychoanalytic 00:02:24.020 --> 00:02:27.800 Association. They had contacted me and requested 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:32.719 to do a guest post. But you had some interesting 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:37.979 questions about love and how to think about love, 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:43.800 which got me thinking. And I went back to reading 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:46.919 a little bit of what Freud wrote about it and 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:50.800 kind of reformulating uh, some of his thoughts, 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:53.659 uh, through my experience with the Freudian School 00:02:53.659 --> 00:02:58.139 of Quebec and, um, learning from the psychoanalysts 00:02:58.139 --> 00:03:01.780 there, uh, Willie Apollon, Danielle Bergeonon, 00:03:02.020 --> 00:03:06.699 and Lucy Kenton, uh, and kind of, uh, also basing 00:03:06.699 --> 00:03:11.340 all of, um, my experience, uh, with, uh, clients 00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:14.020 I work with, uh, couples I work with, families. 00:03:14.709 --> 00:03:17.189 And I work with young adults who kind of struggle 00:03:17.189 --> 00:03:20.509 in their relationships. So this question of love 00:03:20.509 --> 00:03:26.189 is actually it's quite fundamental. So I could 00:03:26.189 --> 00:03:33.949 say more about that, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, 00:03:33.949 --> 00:03:36.710 some kind of general questions that I had, and 00:03:36.710 --> 00:03:40.330 maybe you can just kind of speak to this is I 00:03:40.330 --> 00:03:43.789 was curious about what were Freud's views on 00:03:43.789 --> 00:03:48.090 love? Did he believe it was possible to be altruistic? 00:03:49.949 --> 00:03:52.689 Would Freud say that it was possible to love 00:03:52.689 --> 00:03:54.689 our neighbors as ourselves or that that was a 00:03:54.689 --> 00:03:58.650 good thing or a bad thing? One in particular, 00:03:59.990 --> 00:04:03.569 does loving everyone as we love ourselves deflate 00:04:03.569 --> 00:04:06.169 its value? But those are some kind of questions 00:04:06.169 --> 00:04:09.110 I came up with and I was hoping maybe you could 00:04:09.110 --> 00:04:12.120 speak to that. Yeah, those are very interesting 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:16.000 questions. I think you can and from our conversation 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.420 earlier, it sounds like you are kind of exploring 00:04:18.420 --> 00:04:22.240 different, different aspects of psychoanalytic 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:26.420 writing and its application. But the question 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:31.860 of love, I think, and The way that Freud wrote 00:04:31.860 --> 00:04:35.680 about it, so there's several essays on the psychology 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:39.240 of love that he wrote. The one that originally 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:42.139 had come up to my mind when I read your questions 00:04:42.139 --> 00:04:45.259 were the one on transference love, which he wrote 00:04:45.259 --> 00:04:49.480 about in the techniques of psychoanalysis. They're 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:51.800 mostly written for clinicians who want to work 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:56.269 with psychoanalytic patients. And in that essay 00:04:56.269 --> 00:05:00.029 he explores the love that the patient may have 00:05:00.029 --> 00:05:04.149 towards their analyst or their doctor and he 00:05:04.149 --> 00:05:07.730 interprets that through transference. That was 00:05:07.730 --> 00:05:11.009 one of his essays on transference. It's an obstacle 00:05:11.009 --> 00:05:14.410 to the work of psychoanalysis, this falling in 00:05:14.410 --> 00:05:19.339 love. And this we use nowadays in the clinical 00:05:19.339 --> 00:05:22.180 mental health field and in psychology, everybody 00:05:22.180 --> 00:05:24.740 speaks about transference, right? But at the 00:05:24.740 --> 00:05:28.180 time, I think it was quite revolutionary kind 00:05:28.180 --> 00:05:30.819 of these ideas that he was trying to explore. 00:05:32.259 --> 00:05:36.480 And the other essay that he writes on object 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:39.959 choices, his essay on narcissism. I'm not sure 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:43.259 if you've read any of those. And then he has 00:05:43.259 --> 00:05:49.779 two other ones in which he talks about the, I 00:05:49.779 --> 00:05:52.620 have them right here actually, a special type 00:05:52.620 --> 00:05:58.100 of choice of object made by men is the one and 00:05:58.100 --> 00:06:02.540 then the other one is on the universal tendency 00:06:02.540 --> 00:06:05.560 to debasement in the sphere of love. Have you 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.500 read those essays at all? Do you know about them? 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.019 No, no. So those are some of the major ones, 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:14.920 but what occurred to me while going back to them 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:19.300 and rereading some of them was that Freud was 00:06:19.300 --> 00:06:22.379 primarily writing on the one hand, he was mostly 00:06:22.379 --> 00:06:25.319 writing about neurotic patients, I think. And 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:28.620 on the other hand, he was also primarily writing 00:06:28.620 --> 00:06:31.240 in the sphere of what I would call like what 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:36.839 Lacan calls the imaginary register. So I don't 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:39.100 know if you know anything about Lacan, Jacques 00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:42.939 Lacan, but he was. It's really complex. Right. 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:47.420 So he was a psychoanalyst in France and the school, 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.259 the Freudian School of Quebec is a little bit 00:06:50.259 --> 00:06:54.639 kind of in my mind kind of post Lacanian. So 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:58.879 we think of a lot of his concepts, but also kind 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:05.459 of taking them a step further. Are you with me? 00:07:06.579 --> 00:07:10.220 Sorry, you froze there for a second. Taking them 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:13.079 a step further and applying them to kind of what 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:19.620 we're faced with today with mondializacion is 00:07:19.620 --> 00:07:23.600 a concept by Willy Apollon of the confrontation 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:26.920 of civilizations today. and different cultures 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:30.819 and what that means. So the love that I think 00:07:30.819 --> 00:07:34.019 Freud was writing about in my mind is what I 00:07:34.019 --> 00:07:40.120 would term here like imaginary love. And I think 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:42.339 so that's borrowing the term of the imaginary 00:07:42.339 --> 00:07:46.980 register of Wakhan and also the imaginary transference 00:07:46.980 --> 00:07:51.939 that Willy Apollon talks about. So this is just 00:07:51.939 --> 00:07:59.019 a different way of looking at transference. And 00:07:59.019 --> 00:08:02.639 I don't know how does this strike you, is what 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:05.459 I'm saying. I have a whole explanation about 00:08:05.459 --> 00:08:08.720 what I mean by this. Yeah, go ahead and go into 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:13.699 that. I'm not exactly familiar with the imaginary. 00:08:16.449 --> 00:08:19.529 Well, it really makes a distinction between the 00:08:19.529 --> 00:08:22.529 imaginary transference and the symbolic transference. 00:08:23.310 --> 00:08:26.029 But when I think about love, I'm thinking that 00:08:26.029 --> 00:08:29.149 we fall in love with the image that the other 00:08:29.149 --> 00:08:32.929 has for us, or the image that we project onto 00:08:32.929 --> 00:08:35.549 the other, or that the other, the social link, 00:08:35.710 --> 00:08:40.210 or in the world that we live in. So that image 00:08:40.210 --> 00:08:44.340 is... more closely related to our egos. And when 00:08:44.340 --> 00:08:46.960 you read Freud, he talks quite a lot about the 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:51.360 ego, the object choice, the pleasure principle, 00:08:52.100 --> 00:08:57.330 sexual instincts, right? So the ego is different 00:08:57.330 --> 00:09:00.549 from what Lacan I think talked about and what 00:09:00.549 --> 00:09:02.570 we talk about the Freudian school of Quebec, 00:09:02.830 --> 00:09:07.009 which is the subject of the unconscious or desire. 00:09:07.330 --> 00:09:10.629 So Lacan introduces the concept of desire there. 00:09:10.990 --> 00:09:13.909 That tends to complicate things, but the image 00:09:13.909 --> 00:09:18.730 that we have or the ego is one aspect of a human 00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:23.789 and is different from the intimate experience 00:09:23.789 --> 00:09:27.169 that each one of us has that nobody else has 00:09:27.169 --> 00:09:34.169 access to and so Personally, I think I've been 00:09:34.169 --> 00:09:36.070 kind of preoccupied with this question of love 00:09:36.070 --> 00:09:39.190 I think for quite a while and I your question 00:09:39.190 --> 00:09:41.909 made me think through just the phases of that 00:09:41.909 --> 00:09:46.629 I in my personal experience and a lot of the 00:09:46.629 --> 00:09:50.730 love I think that a neurotic would experience 00:09:50.730 --> 00:09:53.470 I think is very much in the field of this imaginary 00:09:53.470 --> 00:09:59.409 love in relation to the other person. And another 00:09:59.409 --> 00:10:02.149 thing that we might say or that we might say 00:10:02.149 --> 00:10:07.710 is that love is usually a symptom. It's a symptom 00:10:07.710 --> 00:10:11.590 of the chronic, our entire love life may be considered 00:10:11.590 --> 00:10:17.309 as such, mostly because When we're little, we 00:10:17.309 --> 00:10:21.110 create these blueprints based on the relationships 00:10:21.110 --> 00:10:23.850 that we have with our primary caregivers about 00:10:23.850 --> 00:10:26.750 what it means to be loved, what's expected of 00:10:26.750 --> 00:10:30.710 us in order to be loved and approved. And then 00:10:30.710 --> 00:10:34.450 the neurotic typically creates a whole solution 00:10:34.450 --> 00:10:38.970 to how to be in the world based off of what goes 00:10:38.970 --> 00:10:42.649 on in that intimate experience, what Freud might 00:10:42.649 --> 00:10:45.679 call the id. right, the unconscious, the out 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:48.360 of language, and then the expectations and the 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:51.440 rules and the norms in the world that the ego 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:54.159 is going to create some kind of compromised version 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:59.039 of itself to be able to exist in both of these 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:02.460 spheres, the sphere of the unconscious and the 00:11:02.460 --> 00:11:10.840 world outside of the body. And so this blueprint 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:15.320 that we follow tends to, I think, serve as a 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:18.159 foundation for our relationships moving forward, 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.299 right? And it gets with every next stage of development, 00:11:24.779 --> 00:11:27.840 puberty, adolescence, young adulthood, we kind 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:32.879 of tend to build on that blueprint. And what 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:36.519 Willie and the analysts of DFQ have created was 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:42.570 the concept of the fantasy of seduction. So This 00:11:42.570 --> 00:11:45.710 blueprint creates a structure within which we 00:11:45.710 --> 00:11:48.549 function and patterns that repeat in a person's 00:11:48.549 --> 00:11:53.950 life that are based on this fantasy of seduction. 00:11:54.490 --> 00:11:57.509 We behave a certain way in order to be loved, 00:11:57.730 --> 00:12:00.950 to receive love. which we're all human beings. 00:12:01.230 --> 00:12:03.769 We're all in relation to others. We need others. 00:12:03.809 --> 00:12:06.409 It's fundamental that we have others in our lives 00:12:06.409 --> 00:12:09.929 so you can see how deeply rooted this is. But 00:12:09.929 --> 00:12:12.269 it's certainly a deviation from what Freud talked 00:12:12.269 --> 00:12:17.070 about. This will be different, I think, for the 00:12:17.070 --> 00:12:20.049 perverse subject, for the psychotic subject. 00:12:20.129 --> 00:12:22.730 So you mentioned earlier when we chatted before 00:12:22.730 --> 00:12:25.330 this that you've been interested in psychosis 00:12:25.330 --> 00:12:31.490 also and For the psychotic, I think love will 00:12:31.490 --> 00:12:33.909 be very different. It's not going to be the same 00:12:33.909 --> 00:12:38.590 kind of relational object, relational experience. 00:12:39.769 --> 00:12:43.409 The psychotic often is interested in things other 00:12:43.409 --> 00:12:47.809 than themselves, but the delusion tends to serve 00:12:47.809 --> 00:12:52.590 as an obstacle. to that concern, to that love 00:12:52.590 --> 00:12:55.149 for something outside of themselves. For the 00:12:55.149 --> 00:12:57.769 neurotic person, the fantasy of seduction is 00:12:57.769 --> 00:13:01.049 an obstacle. So our symptom, being in love with 00:13:01.049 --> 00:13:04.110 another person, is often an obstacle to kind 00:13:04.110 --> 00:13:08.470 of looking internally at our own desire and bringing 00:13:08.470 --> 00:13:12.830 that to life, which is what Freud kind of touched 00:13:12.830 --> 00:13:16.220 on in his essay on Transference Love. I think 00:13:16.220 --> 00:13:18.720 in therapy says when the patient is in love with 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:21.799 the clinician, it's an obstacle to the patient 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:23.740 actually looking internally of what's going on 00:13:23.740 --> 00:13:28.279 for them. And often when people enter analysis, 00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:30.899 if they fall in love even with somebody else 00:13:30.899 --> 00:13:34.879 outside of the analysis, they become so preoccupied 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:36.879 with this other person that it's hard for them 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.700 to actually look internally. So that's something 00:13:39.700 --> 00:13:44.899 that one needs to work through. In order to get 00:13:44.899 --> 00:13:52.679 to a much deeper subjective experience When you 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:55.120 say yeah, no, that's that's fun. Thank you. So 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:59.240 when you say a symptom Let me for example. I 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:02.620 just read this book a shadow of the figure of 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:08.120 light by this union and he was arguing that For 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:11.360 the alcoholic or the one addicted to substances 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:18.039 that they have a spiritual problem and that well 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:19.879 Jungians would say we all have spiritual problems, 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:24.360 but so they have. And so when they intake alcohol, 00:14:24.500 --> 00:14:28.179 alcohol is like a spirit. And yeah, it's a symptom. 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:32.139 But if you understand the symptom and what it's 00:14:32.139 --> 00:14:34.759 trying to tell you about maybe what's out of 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:36.620 line or out of kilter, then you know something 00:14:36.620 --> 00:14:40.080 more about yourself. And is it? somewhat similar 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:43.679 to say that love is a symptom or like in terms 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:46.639 of the transference. At first, Freud thought 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:51.860 of it as a something blocking the progress of 00:14:51.860 --> 00:14:55.639 the work. But then he came to look at it as actually 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:59.399 this is something that we can use in in order 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:02.940 to better understand where this is coming from 00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:05.600 and what it says about the person. And then we 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.919 can point it back to them. Is it similar? Yeah. 00:15:10.519 --> 00:15:13.740 Well, those are two separate issues that maybe 00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:16.759 they're connected to just in terms of alcohol 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:19.879 because one of the arguments is that, you know, 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:24.320 alcohol is primarily concentrated on the oral. 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:32.120 as a partial object of the body and it satisfies 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:36.000 certain needs for people that relate to very 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:39.120 primitive, primordial relationship with a primary 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:42.820 caregiver and the breath. And so you can talk 00:15:42.820 --> 00:15:45.519 about all kinds of things in terms of nurturing 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:52.659 and connection. trauma if you will so so that's 00:15:52.659 --> 00:15:54.940 that's in and of itself a whole a whole thing 00:15:54.940 --> 00:16:00.659 but I think you're right transference if one 00:16:00.659 --> 00:16:03.500 well there's different positions that different 00:16:03.500 --> 00:16:05.679 psychoanalysts will work with that if you're 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.940 an object relational psychoanalyst you might 00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:14.580 use this transference love and interpret it and 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:18.509 work in that The psychoanalysis that I'm talking 00:16:18.509 --> 00:16:23.330 about and that I write about in the practical 00:16:23.330 --> 00:16:26.409 psychoanalysis blog and the one that I'm practicing 00:16:26.409 --> 00:16:31.629 is outside of that. So the analyst needs to remain 00:16:31.629 --> 00:16:36.190 outside of these object relational dynamics because 00:16:36.190 --> 00:16:39.570 they mostly serve as an obstacle to the subject 00:16:39.570 --> 00:16:42.470 in achieving or getting access to their desire. 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.639 there wouldn't be any interpretation of this 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.580 for the patient. They may be encouraged to speak 00:16:50.580 --> 00:16:57.039 about it or there may not be any comment on that 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:01.100 if they mentioned it. So it depends on who is 00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:05.259 speaking and what the patient's history is because 00:17:05.259 --> 00:17:08.440 it's hard to generalize these things because 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:12.960 they're obviously very subjectively motivated. 00:17:13.339 --> 00:17:16.400 And it will be different for a different subject. 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.140 I don't think I've ever heard of a psychoanalyst 00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:25.559 not like using or interpreting the transference. 00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:28.960 Yeah. So that goes back to what I said at the 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.240 beginning, the concept of Willy Appalon. This 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:35.200 is what we call the imaginary transference as 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:38.339 far as I understand it. And that's something 00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:40.720 that we don't necessarily we are aware of it. 00:17:40.970 --> 00:17:44.250 as a clinician or an analyst, one can be aware 00:17:44.250 --> 00:17:47.910 of what's going on because they know the history 00:17:47.910 --> 00:17:52.269 of the person. But we don't interfere or we don't 00:17:52.269 --> 00:17:56.789 intervene at that level. We try to stay outside 00:17:56.789 --> 00:18:02.569 of it because if we did, then we become yet another 00:18:02.569 --> 00:18:06.549 other who is part of the fantasy of seduction 00:18:06.549 --> 00:18:10.950 for the patient. And this is again, speaking 00:18:10.950 --> 00:18:14.150 of neurotic people, they will be slightly different 00:18:14.150 --> 00:18:16.269 if we're talking about a perverse person, like 00:18:16.269 --> 00:18:18.930 a perverse structure according to a cons formulation 00:18:18.930 --> 00:18:23.549 in the psychotic. There you have a scenario and 00:18:23.549 --> 00:18:26.490 with the psychotic you have a delusional enterprise 00:18:26.490 --> 00:18:30.369 and those are different ways of situating the 00:18:30.369 --> 00:18:36.190 work, I think. That's very interesting. I would 00:18:36.190 --> 00:18:39.700 like to delve further into that. topic alone 00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:42.200 at some point. Thanks for bringing that to my 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:45.079 attention. Willie Apollon. Okay. Yes, Willie 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:47.460 Apollon has a lot of, yeah, they've written a 00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:51.240 lot of him, Daniel Bergeron, and Lucy Kenton. 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:54.500 Okay. And I can send you the names afterwards 00:18:54.500 --> 00:18:57.890 and actually point you to another podcast. That 00:18:57.890 --> 00:19:02.910 is very interesting that you may find some inspiration 00:19:02.910 --> 00:19:07.670 from. That's done by one of the members of the 00:19:07.670 --> 00:19:12.150 EFQ. Her name is Fernanda Negrete and the podcast 00:19:12.150 --> 00:19:18.329 is called Penumbra Cast. So there she has an 00:19:18.329 --> 00:19:22.509 interview actually with Willie Apollon. So I 00:19:22.509 --> 00:19:26.009 think you may like that. Yeah. Okay, cool. Thank 00:19:26.009 --> 00:19:30.759 you. This came to my mind, so you were talking 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:36.180 about love being a symptom and how it's kind 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:39.779 of a reflection of our own ego. So like the typical 00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:42.940 example, would that be something similar to, 00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:46.259 you know, there's a, let's say that I'm not a 00:19:46.259 --> 00:19:49.259 very creative person, but there's this person 00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:51.579 that's very creative and I fall in love with 00:19:51.579 --> 00:19:56.279 them. I would, in some, the forms of thought, 00:19:56.420 --> 00:19:59.380 you might say that that's an indication that 00:19:59.380 --> 00:20:03.799 you long to be more creative and that you see 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.039 it out there. You value it. Maybe you don't have 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.180 that developed, but you see it out there and 00:20:09.180 --> 00:20:12.140 you fall in love with that person who, you know, 00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:15.900 symbolizes that. And then hopefully you don't 00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:18.599 just stop there, but you grow closer to them 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:20.559 in the way that they are and they help you develop 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:24.900 your your creativity or your personality. Is 00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:27.099 that somewhat kind of similar to what you're 00:20:27.099 --> 00:20:31.180 talking to as a symptom? Yeah, but this is what 00:20:31.180 --> 00:20:35.160 this is what Freud talked about, actually. He 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.680 he talked about this and that's on that's in 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:42.299 his essay on narcissism. He talks about two types 00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:47.279 of love. One is according to the narcissistic 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:51.579 type. And I'm quoting here from page five five 00:20:51.579 --> 00:20:58.559 five and in the Freudian reader edited by Peter 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:02.000 Gay here. So according to the narcissistic type, 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:07.440 you fall in love with what a person himself is, 00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:13.119 what he himself was, what he himself would like 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.750 to be. or someone who was once part of himself. 00:21:16.869 --> 00:21:20.109 So that's part of his narcissistic type of love, 00:21:20.109 --> 00:21:24.630 right? Okay. And then he calls the other one 00:21:24.630 --> 00:21:28.710 an eclectic attachment type. So you fall in love 00:21:28.710 --> 00:21:31.730 with the woman who, the person falls in love 00:21:31.730 --> 00:21:35.349 and he talks about, he uses me here, right? The 00:21:35.349 --> 00:21:39.069 woman who feeds him or the man who protects him. 00:21:39.130 --> 00:21:42.829 So that was his first kind of definition. So 00:21:42.829 --> 00:21:45.750 that's all part of, I think, yeah, the seagull 00:21:45.750 --> 00:21:51.990 psychology began there. Do you agree with the 00:21:51.990 --> 00:21:54.470 kind of colloquial, you hear everyone say it 00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:56.849 nowadays, like, how am I supposed to love someone 00:21:56.849 --> 00:22:01.769 else if I can't love myself? Well, I actually 00:22:03.339 --> 00:22:07.460 To a certain degree, I do agree, but people fall 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:09.960 in love all the time with others who perhaps 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.119 love them more than they can love themselves. 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:14.519 And that's part of the whole system that keeps 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:17.140 them together, right? You just found somebody 00:22:17.140 --> 00:22:20.680 that you can see yourself in their eyes or something 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:22.859 that they can, you know, you can see yourself 00:22:22.859 --> 00:22:25.500 in the reflection of their eyes or how they see 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:28.180 you or what they imagine. That's also that's 00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:30.480 all part of this kind of imaginary love that 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.289 I that I mentioned that I feel like. I talked 00:22:33.289 --> 00:22:38.430 about and what's the symptom. But I think there's 00:22:38.430 --> 00:22:43.269 a different love that I wanted to speak about 00:22:43.269 --> 00:22:46.950 that goes a step further from that, which will 00:22:46.950 --> 00:22:50.730 be in a way you can say once you have found the 00:22:50.730 --> 00:22:54.759 love. for yourself, but not just for the self 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:57.539 that you present to other people, not the love 00:22:57.539 --> 00:23:02.619 for your ego, but the love for your own desire 00:23:02.619 --> 00:23:06.039 or your own spirit, spirit, your own creative 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:13.099 spirit. And then you can connect with other people 00:23:13.099 --> 00:23:19.339 on this kind of more I guess we could say spiritual 00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:21.299 level, but it doesn't have anything to do with 00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:25.259 religion. But it's a connection with another 00:23:25.259 --> 00:23:28.079 creative spirit than the other, right? Willy 00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:30.940 Apple has this concept of the spirit that he's 00:23:30.940 --> 00:23:33.599 developed for a while, that it kind of has something 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:36.680 to do with, and he also uses the word quest. 00:23:38.390 --> 00:23:42.089 for the person's desire. So once you've been 00:23:42.089 --> 00:23:44.910 able to find love for that within oneself, that 00:23:44.910 --> 00:23:47.390 also connects to other concepts like the concept 00:23:47.390 --> 00:23:50.190 of the feminine and the creative energy that 00:23:50.190 --> 00:23:53.150 we all have. I think then it allows a different, 00:23:53.349 --> 00:23:55.670 and once you've worked through your own fantasy 00:23:55.670 --> 00:24:00.710 of seduction for your own self and traverse that, 00:24:01.130 --> 00:24:03.670 then I think that opens up a space for a different 00:24:03.670 --> 00:24:07.769 kind of love for other people. One that connects 00:24:07.769 --> 00:24:14.450 to something beyond just our own selves. And 00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:19.650 I have a couple of examples of that. For instance, 00:24:21.289 --> 00:24:24.970 publicly, I'm going to declare my love for President 00:24:24.970 --> 00:24:28.609 Zelensky. President Zelensky, for instance. And 00:24:28.609 --> 00:24:32.470 that is me connecting with the spirit in him. 00:24:32.650 --> 00:24:35.769 and what he brings to humanity. When I listen 00:24:35.769 --> 00:24:38.309 to an interview, for example, that he's giving, 00:24:39.029 --> 00:24:42.589 he gave one to 60 Minutes. That was, I think, 00:24:43.309 --> 00:24:46.150 broadcasted last week or the week before. And 00:24:46.150 --> 00:24:50.569 we see this man who's in the body, but who is 00:24:50.569 --> 00:24:53.450 embodying the spirit in him that's fighting for 00:24:53.450 --> 00:24:56.829 something that's beyond his personal self. And 00:24:56.829 --> 00:25:00.170 that kind of love that I can have for him, it 00:25:00.170 --> 00:25:03.490 brings me to tears listening to his interview. 00:25:04.009 --> 00:25:07.049 And that kind of love has nothing to do with 00:25:07.049 --> 00:25:09.430 what kind of a man he is in the bedroom with 00:25:09.430 --> 00:25:13.150 his wife. Does that make sense? The way that 00:25:13.150 --> 00:25:16.329 his wife would love him has nothing to do with 00:25:16.329 --> 00:25:20.049 how he can be loved by people for whom he is 00:25:20.049 --> 00:25:24.000 standing up for. It's a similar feeling of love 00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.259 that I can have for somebody who I'm listening 00:25:26.259 --> 00:25:30.740 to on my couch, for instance, or a child that 00:25:30.740 --> 00:25:33.059 I'm working with who's really struggling, but 00:25:33.059 --> 00:25:35.839 there's something in them that they have to contribute. 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:38.480 There's a creative spirit in them that I can 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:42.180 listen to and listen for and try to support. 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:50.059 But probably the biggest or the strongest way 00:25:50.059 --> 00:25:52.460 that I felt that kind of love will be for, for 00:25:52.460 --> 00:25:54.779 instance, for my children. I have two of them. 00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:58.519 But it's not the type of narcissistic love that 00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:00.880 Freud talked about where a child is experienced 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:05.619 as an extension of the self and a fulfillment 00:26:05.619 --> 00:26:08.220 of all the wishes that a parent wanted for themselves 00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:12.000 but couldn't have. But more as two separate human 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.720 beings who have something they could contribute 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:18.549 to the world. that may be different from what 00:26:18.549 --> 00:26:24.029 I want for them and yet supporting them in becoming 00:26:24.029 --> 00:26:27.970 who they need to become. So this kind of love 00:26:27.970 --> 00:26:30.769 Willie talks about is part of the register of 00:26:30.769 --> 00:26:36.130 the sublime. I would call it real love that connects 00:26:36.130 --> 00:26:40.009 to the register of the real too. For me, there's 00:26:40.009 --> 00:26:44.460 something out of out of language really, and 00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:47.299 it's a feeling that I have that I am willing 00:26:47.299 --> 00:26:52.519 to kind of give my own life to make it, to continue 00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:55.960 this other thing. The same way that I think Zelinsky 00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:58.940 is willing to give his own life to fight for 00:26:58.940 --> 00:27:03.400 what he called Spravedligust, which is justice. 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.670 So... Yeah, I'm not sure how you're hearing that, 00:27:10.309 --> 00:27:14.369 but it's different from the neurochemical physiological 00:27:14.369 --> 00:27:17.670 love and the release of hormones in the brain 00:27:17.670 --> 00:27:21.329 and the attachment one will have to a person 00:27:21.329 --> 00:27:23.849 based off of skin -to -skin contact, right? This 00:27:23.849 --> 00:27:26.269 is a different kind of love I'm talking about. 00:27:27.369 --> 00:27:29.890 Yeah, and you bring up a lot of good points because 00:27:29.890 --> 00:27:33.509 when it comes to something like love, there is, 00:27:33.710 --> 00:27:39.700 I think it's an endless a bottomless pit of, 00:27:39.940 --> 00:27:42.119 we can never get to the bottom of, we have to 00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:43.740 go through all these different definitions and 00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:46.920 types of love. And I'm glad that you brought 00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:49.119 up the example of the love that you have for 00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:51.380 your kids. That's something I was thinking of 00:27:51.380 --> 00:27:57.180 earlier as well. I think that what you say makes 00:27:57.180 --> 00:28:01.660 a lot of sense and I'm trying to think that towards, 00:28:01.660 --> 00:28:05.319 so maybe the sublime love then. Let's say kind 00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:08.650 of that, And maybe this doesn't have to be tied 00:28:08.650 --> 00:28:11.349 to a religion, but kind of that you've heard 00:28:11.349 --> 00:28:16.130 of people experiencing this on something like 00:28:16.130 --> 00:28:21.470 MDMA or some type of a psychoactive drug. So 00:28:21.470 --> 00:28:24.049 the type of where you just feel like you're one 00:28:24.049 --> 00:28:27.309 with the universe and you realize that others 00:28:27.309 --> 00:28:29.630 are also one with the universe and that you're 00:28:29.630 --> 00:28:33.049 all interconnected. You all come from the same 00:28:33.049 --> 00:28:39.710 source. You all you are all. One. Just popped 00:28:39.710 --> 00:28:42.970 up in different in different segments, basically. 00:28:43.690 --> 00:28:48.930 And then that kind of. The Christian love command 00:28:48.930 --> 00:28:51.970 of loving your neighbor as yourself or kind of 00:28:51.970 --> 00:28:57.730 that. More altruistic love is that would that 00:28:57.730 --> 00:29:01.230 kind of fall into the sublime love? Is that possible 00:29:01.230 --> 00:29:07.380 realistic? It's a very tall order I think I think 00:29:07.380 --> 00:29:09.740 in one of your questions there was also a question 00:29:09.740 --> 00:29:13.599 of is this like a developmental state or something 00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:17.400 and and I do believe that there is a certain 00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:23.319 developmental aspect to it because You know when 00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:27.099 we're younger children It makes perfect sense 00:29:27.099 --> 00:29:31.220 to be entirely self -focused for quite a while 00:29:31.220 --> 00:29:34.220 because we still live in a world where, and our 00:29:34.220 --> 00:29:37.339 brains are still developing. Up to age about 00:29:37.339 --> 00:29:40.920 12 or so, we kind of live very much in this egocentric 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:45.480 kind of space. Once abstract thought comes into 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:50.410 play and people are able to hold separate ideas, 00:29:50.710 --> 00:29:53.029 two conflicting ideas being true at the same 00:29:53.029 --> 00:29:56.490 time. Once they have a certain moral development, 00:29:56.670 --> 00:29:58.750 I think you were asking about moral development 00:29:58.750 --> 00:30:03.410 there, then you're able to see the two separate 00:30:03.410 --> 00:30:06.490 truths can be contradicting and true at the same 00:30:06.490 --> 00:30:09.819 time. You can love multiple people at the same 00:30:09.819 --> 00:30:12.920 time. You can have conflicting feelings. I do 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:16.640 believe that there is a certain stage of or phase 00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.700 of development. And the way I think about it 00:30:19.700 --> 00:30:22.819 is in the process of analysis, it is somewhat 00:30:22.819 --> 00:30:26.299 of a developmental trajectory. to reach a place 00:30:26.299 --> 00:30:29.900 in your analysis where you're no longer concerned 00:30:29.900 --> 00:30:33.160 about your own ego or your own self but you're 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:35.759 concerned about something outside of yourself 00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:38.259 outside of your own ego something that's going 00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:41.779 to surpass you that goes beyond the time that 00:30:41.779 --> 00:30:44.640 you have on this earth that could potentially 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.700 remain after your time on this earth but that 00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:54.049 also concerns other people so And that has to 00:30:54.049 --> 00:30:57.069 do with, I think I have that feeling sometimes 00:30:57.069 --> 00:31:01.029 when I read certain writers who are no longer 00:31:01.029 --> 00:31:03.230 with us, right? And the same way you can read 00:31:03.230 --> 00:31:05.890 Freud who's no longer with us, but his spirit 00:31:05.890 --> 00:31:15.289 is alive in his writing. So yeah, I think to 00:31:15.289 --> 00:31:19.180 loving another person as you love yourself, I 00:31:19.180 --> 00:31:22.019 would add loving another person more than you 00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:26.539 love yourself is actually where one can get to 00:31:26.539 --> 00:31:31.700 and but loving that which they can contribute 00:31:31.700 --> 00:31:36.720 to humanity as such. Regarding the drug use and 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.799 you know, getting in these psychedelic states. 00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:44.359 I there's perhaps something of people's unconscious 00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:46.599 that they're able to access while they're on 00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:50.279 drugs. that stays with them, but I honestly don't 00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:53.420 feel like one needs to do that in order to access 00:31:53.420 --> 00:31:59.420 that part about oneself. One can do that in analysis 00:31:59.420 --> 00:32:04.460 and have that feeling perfectly sober towards 00:32:04.460 --> 00:32:08.400 other people, you know? I'm just advocating here. 00:32:08.500 --> 00:32:12.150 Yeah, because at first when you. brought that 00:32:12.150 --> 00:32:15.150 up, I was thinking, yeah, meditation too, that's 00:32:15.150 --> 00:32:18.470 something that really brings it about, but I 00:32:18.470 --> 00:32:21.289 don't think I had thought about psychoanalysis 00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:25.529 bringing about that kind of deep experiential 00:32:25.529 --> 00:32:29.890 feeling of love for other people, humanity, that's 00:32:29.890 --> 00:32:35.730 cool. Yeah, I think that's in... humanity in 00:32:35.730 --> 00:32:40.069 its in its form and in its present but in it 00:32:40.069 --> 00:32:44.829 also in its future right because we live in a 00:32:44.829 --> 00:32:47.089 certain culture we live in certain civilizations 00:32:47.089 --> 00:32:51.710 and those things tend to tend to pass us but 00:32:51.710 --> 00:32:58.410 as humans we remain right and we remain in thanks 00:32:58.410 --> 00:33:01.890 to living on an earth that we need to preserve 00:33:01.890 --> 00:33:05.069 and one day perhaps we'll have to surpass if 00:33:05.069 --> 00:33:09.029 we were to survive. So having that look for what 00:33:09.029 --> 00:33:12.869 humanity has to bring I think is important. And 00:33:12.869 --> 00:33:15.829 yeah, it's one of the goals I think of psychoanalysis, 00:33:15.970 --> 00:33:18.990 if you will, being able to get to that place 00:33:18.990 --> 00:33:23.109 as a subject, as a human and then sharing that 00:33:23.109 --> 00:33:25.849 with others, which is why when we first started, 00:33:25.869 --> 00:33:28.329 I told you there's a very specific definition 00:33:28.329 --> 00:33:32.259 of what a psychoanalyst is. at the Freudian School 00:33:32.259 --> 00:33:36.460 of Quebec. And it's impossible for one to accompany 00:33:36.460 --> 00:33:39.940 another person to this place that I'm talking 00:33:39.940 --> 00:33:42.960 about without having gone through it themselves. 00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:47.839 Because if you are stuck in these other egocentric 00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:51.480 or ego to ego or object relations kind of dynamics, 00:33:52.099 --> 00:33:58.039 you're still, you're not outside of that. The 00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:00.420 seduction piece for the neurotic for instance, 00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:05.380 and you can't really operate outside of it, right? 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.679 And most of the psychoanalysts I think in the 00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:14.239 United States At least the way I read their writing 00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:16.599 and the way I hear them and I've been involved 00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:19.719 in this field for quite a while now I think a 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:23.400 lot of them function still in that parameter 00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:30.320 of within the fantasy of seduction. And they 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:33.880 operate within that place of transference love 00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:37.840 that Freud wrote about, and they operate within 00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:41.880 the imaginary transference. To get to something 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:45.320 outside of that, it requires a very specific 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:49.659 work that each one of us has to do that allows 00:34:49.659 --> 00:34:55.739 us to then be a company another. And so the EFQ 00:34:55.739 --> 00:35:00.179 has the process of the past conclusive in which 00:35:00.179 --> 00:35:04.960 you testified to your own experience and analysis 00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:09.659 and in that then your love for this something 00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:13.840 else gets elaborated. And I don't think other 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:18.500 people talk about it as love. This is what your 00:35:18.500 --> 00:35:24.119 questions kind of made me think of. Tracy McNulty 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:27.179 has a very interesting interview with Fernanda 00:35:27.179 --> 00:35:30.199 in that podcast I mentioned to you. Fernanda, 00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:32.460 I believe it's actually the very first episode. 00:35:33.340 --> 00:35:36.199 And she elaborates a lot more specifically about 00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:40.039 what a psychoanalyst means and what's the past 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:46.579 going to receive there. Okay. I feel like I have 00:35:46.579 --> 00:35:50.800 a whole new world to explore. Yeah. I'm so glad 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:56.880 to hear that, yeah. I'm glad to hear that. I 00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:59.119 want to be respectful of your time. I did want 00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:03.960 to allow you a few minutes to speak to your experience 00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:06.619 and your practice. And from my understanding, 00:36:06.860 --> 00:36:09.239 you work with children and adolescents. And yeah, 00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:13.739 can you tell us a little bit about that and how 00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:16.860 you incorporate psychoanalysis into your work 00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:21.380 with children and adolescents too? Yeah. Well, 00:36:21.699 --> 00:36:25.559 it's a very good question and probably it's an 00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:30.699 ongoing question because the psychoanalysis that 00:36:30.699 --> 00:36:34.900 I just described is it's not exactly possible 00:36:34.900 --> 00:36:37.820 with somebody who's still in the process of becoming 00:36:37.820 --> 00:36:44.800 a human, right? But I certainly incorporate, 00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:48.750 I mean that's how I... been trained for so many 00:36:48.750 --> 00:36:51.130 years and how I think about things. I certainly 00:36:51.130 --> 00:36:54.489 incorporate the meta psychology all the time. 00:36:56.670 --> 00:37:00.610 And I try to create a space in my practice for 00:37:00.610 --> 00:37:08.489 young people for what is outside of their social 00:37:08.489 --> 00:37:12.110 context, their familial context. And that also 00:37:12.110 --> 00:37:15.480 means making space for their parents. and what 00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:19.460 in them has remained unresolved that may be causing 00:37:19.460 --> 00:37:23.199 problems unconsciously, if you will, on their 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:27.619 relationships. And to relate it back to love, 00:37:27.940 --> 00:37:30.099 I think what ends up happening a lot in families 00:37:30.099 --> 00:37:33.300 is that people don't realize that what they may 00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:36.739 be doing in a family may be making their children 00:37:36.739 --> 00:37:41.420 feel like they're not loved. And that has long 00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:46.760 term effects. for generations actually. And so 00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:49.380 part of my work is to try to help people understand 00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:52.599 how what they say and what they do is affecting 00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:55.619 their children. And I also try to kind of empower 00:37:55.619 --> 00:37:58.260 the kids to have a space of their own to process 00:37:58.260 --> 00:38:00.539 through these things so that they're not traumatic 00:38:00.539 --> 00:38:05.630 one day, right? So they're not traumatic. But 00:38:05.630 --> 00:38:08.469 so that's one aspect of it. I guess that relates 00:38:08.469 --> 00:38:11.510 to love I also work with a lot of people who've 00:38:11.510 --> 00:38:14.369 been through trauma so young adults who've experienced 00:38:14.369 --> 00:38:18.449 trauma And to me because psychoanalysis can take 00:38:18.449 --> 00:38:21.829 a long time sometimes The reason why I work with 00:38:21.829 --> 00:38:24.050 young people is because the sooner you start 00:38:24.050 --> 00:38:26.110 trying to look at yourself and addressing some 00:38:26.110 --> 00:38:32.070 of those issues the better So I try to make that 00:38:32.070 --> 00:38:35.280 space for people And sometimes the work is, you 00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.900 know, it's a long -term kind of work, but I find 00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:42.059 it very rewarding when young people can really 00:38:42.059 --> 00:38:45.000 take ownership of their life from an early age 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:49.019 and make something of themselves and bring in 00:38:49.019 --> 00:38:54.519 their desire to life. Yeah, that's got to be 00:38:54.519 --> 00:39:00.760 awesome to maybe start working with someone at 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:04.050 14 or 15 years old. And then maybe now they're 00:39:04.050 --> 00:39:07.750 18 or 19 and they've just developed this sense 00:39:07.750 --> 00:39:11.889 of understanding themselves, kind of understanding, 00:39:11.889 --> 00:39:15.409 you know, their family history and why we do 00:39:15.409 --> 00:39:21.190 what we do and and how much. How much influence 00:39:21.190 --> 00:39:23.989 do I have directly over these decisions and actions 00:39:23.989 --> 00:39:26.489 and behaviors? And what does that say about me? 00:39:26.489 --> 00:39:29.369 What does it say about my family? That's just 00:39:29.369 --> 00:39:34.250 a very different. mindset to be in. I wish I 00:39:34.250 --> 00:39:39.409 had given more pause as a teenager. It's hard. 00:39:39.630 --> 00:39:41.329 I mean, it's very hard, I think, as a teenager, 00:39:41.329 --> 00:39:44.429 because you still, you know, trying to figure, 00:39:44.869 --> 00:39:49.409 and especially as an adolescent, it's something 00:39:49.409 --> 00:39:51.389 that one needs to kind of confront, I think, 00:39:51.510 --> 00:39:54.889 to a certain degree, on your own. And in fact, 00:39:55.010 --> 00:39:57.190 I will tell you, it is very difficult to engage 00:39:57.190 --> 00:39:59.849 an adolescent in this kind of work because they 00:39:59.849 --> 00:40:04.269 kind of are like, I'm on my own, folks. I'm going 00:40:04.269 --> 00:40:08.829 to figure this out. But it's an ongoing question, 00:40:08.929 --> 00:40:11.869 I think, how to apply these psychoanalytic principles 00:40:11.869 --> 00:40:15.250 and that experience to different structures, 00:40:15.789 --> 00:40:18.269 to different social structures, to the family. 00:40:19.630 --> 00:40:23.510 And I'm working with other people in an organization 00:40:23.510 --> 00:40:28.130 called Spiral. It's the society for psychoanalytic 00:40:28.130 --> 00:40:32.230 and interdisciplinary interventions and research 00:40:32.230 --> 00:40:37.130 after Lacan. it's a mouthful. But we are working 00:40:37.130 --> 00:40:39.889 on these kinds of meta psychological issues and 00:40:39.889 --> 00:40:43.309 how to apply them to socio cultural and political 00:40:43.309 --> 00:40:47.050 context to the clinical work with the family 00:40:47.050 --> 00:40:53.230 to a clinic of psychosis, if you will. So to 00:40:53.230 --> 00:40:58.489 writing, and so it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing 00:40:58.489 --> 00:41:02.139 work that's come out of that. So Yeah, that's 00:41:02.139 --> 00:41:04.139 awesome. Thank you for allowing me an opportunity 00:41:04.139 --> 00:41:06.599 to speak about this to your audience. Yeah, of 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:10.800 course. Two things that came up. One, I'm going 00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:13.119 to get this quote wrong, but I think Carl Jung 00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:16.199 said something about the first half of life is 00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:19.960 in preparation for the second half of life. Kind 00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:22.119 of like what you were saying, the first half 00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:25.659 of life, you're kind of external focused. How 00:41:25.659 --> 00:41:28.260 much can I take control of the external world? 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:31.079 and order it in the way that I want. And then 00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:35.659 the second half of life, you kind of. It kind 00:41:35.659 --> 00:41:39.139 of in the reverse is true to where that's you 00:41:39.139 --> 00:41:41.059 kind of start to go in more as you start to lose 00:41:41.059 --> 00:41:43.760 strength or your looks or whatever it might be. 00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:45.719 That's just something that popped in my head. 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:48.719 And two, I hope you didn't take offense to in 00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:50.699 the beginning, I introduced you as a student 00:41:50.699 --> 00:41:53.179 of psychoanalysis. I was thinking yesterday, 00:41:53.179 --> 00:41:58.940 actually in the APA, one of our like One of the 00:41:58.940 --> 00:42:02.380 values is to be a lifelong learner. And I was 00:42:02.380 --> 00:42:07.579 thinking to myself, you know, I don't think lifelong 00:42:07.579 --> 00:42:10.000 learner hits the nail on the head. I think what 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:11.920 we shouldn't just be lifelong learners, we should 00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:14.860 be lifelong students. And so that's exactly how 00:42:14.860 --> 00:42:17.539 you said like, yeah, even though you've been 00:42:17.539 --> 00:42:19.519 in the game for a while and you're part of the 00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:21.760 school and you're doing all this research, I 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.280 would I think being a student of psychoanalysis 00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:30.280 is a is a high. Yes. It's a high bar. Yes, that 00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:34.860 was a good way to put it. Yeah. So thanks for 00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:37.820 having me here. Yeah. Thanks, Mihyla, for joining 00:42:37.820 --> 00:42:40.420 me. I really appreciate the conversation and 00:42:40.420 --> 00:42:44.340 the new resources and references. I'm going to 00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:47.539 check out that podcast and look into some of 00:42:47.539 --> 00:42:51.500 these people you've mentioned. And yeah, can 00:42:51.500 --> 00:42:54.500 you send me a few names you mentioned throughout 00:42:54.500 --> 00:42:57.780 our time? Yes, I will send you an email. We can 00:42:57.780 --> 00:42:59.199 follow up by email.