1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:23,880 Hello and thanks for joining me today. Today I have Dr. Eric Monsager. He's been on here 2 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:31,400 a few times. Dr. Monsager is an Adlerian depth psychotherapist based in Switzerland. 3 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:39,120 And recently I've been learning more about internal family systems which uses a lot of 4 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:44,000 parts language. If you're familiar with it you'll know that they talk about the exile part, 5 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:50,840 the manager part, the firefighter part, and it talks about how you have all of these parts 6 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:58,840 that are kind of, maybe in some ways it seems like they're at war with one another because 7 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,180 they're in some ways they're fighting against one another but you reframe it in the sense 8 00:01:03,180 --> 00:01:08,340 that they're only trying to help one another. You have like the firefighter part that comes 9 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:14,120 in when the exile part feels overwhelmed. And so they're all in a lot of ways working toward 10 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,560 a common goal, not a common goal, but they all have different goals but they're all trying 11 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:28,920 to help out. And if you're anything like me or perhaps the rest of humanity, there are 12 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:34,600 probably at times where you feel like you're at odds with yourself. I know a lot of times 13 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:42,940 I want to do the best thing for myself, for my family, for other people, but that can 14 00:01:42,940 --> 00:01:47,200 be a lot of responsibility and it can be really hard. And then there's like this other part 15 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:53,720 of me that just wants to come in and go live a life of frivolity and ease. But a lot of 16 00:01:53,720 --> 00:02:00,200 times it's actually a really big struggle. And there might be times where you even feel 17 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:06,600 some distance from a part of yourself where it's like, who is that or where is that coming 18 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:14,520 from or I thought I had worked through that. It's just so... I reached out to Dr. Monsager 19 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:21,440 because I wanted to hear more about the Illyrian perspective on this and he's mentioned before. 20 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:32,320 And I've read in some of Adler's works about how he conceptualizes the personality as unified. 21 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,960 And I think that was a little bit foreign to me, even with I think my small understanding 22 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:47,520 of Carl Jung's works, how it's kind of you're working toward becoming whole or you're working 23 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:54,000 toward individuation and you're working toward becoming unified, whereas Adler says that 24 00:02:54,000 --> 00:03:00,080 we're already unified from my understanding. So Dr. Monsager, thank you for joining me 25 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:07,760 again today. And yeah, with that, can you kind of let us know what you have prepared 26 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,480 or how you conceptualize this? 27 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:16,640 Daniel, I really appreciate you reaching out. And we originally had conceived this just 28 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:21,120 as a friendly talk. I think both of us are happy to share it with others. But I have 29 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:29,480 in mind a little bit of a dialogue. And I mean, if you could share a little bit about 30 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:36,560 those parts that you experience. And I don't know if there is a... I mean, where you could 31 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:42,760 illustrate the firefighter or the exile or something to that degree. I'd like to hear 32 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,160 what the experience is like for you. 33 00:03:46,160 --> 00:04:01,480 Okay. Let's see. For me, there is... So I'm trying to think of how personal to get with 34 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:02,960 it or how revealing... 35 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:08,400 Not, not probably. You can even make one up if you've heard it in class or something like 36 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,480 that. I didn't mean to put you on the spot that way. 37 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,320 No, yeah, you're good. I don't mind. I'm just trying to think of a good clear example that 38 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:26,480 is worth sharing. I think... For instance, with the internal family systems, if you have 39 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:37,520 somebody who... It's like every time I try to do the right thing, then there's a part 40 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:42,000 of me that comes in and is really critical of me. And then I start feeling really down. 41 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:48,440 And then I end up maybe cutting or watching porn or doing something that is completely 42 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:56,200 against my ideal self. So I have my ideal self that I'm striving for. But... And there's 43 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:02,280 part of me that works toward that goal and likes to be seen that way. But then there's 44 00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:08,960 a part of me that comes in and is super critical and then ends up... There's a part of me that 45 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,760 goes completely against what I'm striving for. 46 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:25,240 Yeah, good. Thanks for that. So the ideal self or the ego ideal was a concept Adler developed 47 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,400 actually and Freud kind of took over. But that's another thing. And he used it differently 48 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:41,680 than Adler. Adler was concerned about how is it that we make it through life and draw 49 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:51,520 from our experiences into overcoming the existential issues of not being very fit for this world 50 00:05:51,520 --> 00:06:01,000 without our families and the like. But this idea of trying to be our ideal self, as you 51 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,760 said, and then finding myself doing something else is the issue you raised earlier in our 52 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:12,640 conversations on the email about Paul in scripture. I don't do the things I want to do and I end 53 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:20,240 up doing things I don't want to do. I think he was being very humane and human in such 54 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:30,560 an example. Adler would look at such a thing to say, and he often did, quoting Martin Luther, 55 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:36,280 don't look at the tongue in my mouth. Look at the tongue in your shoes to see where you're 56 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:41,000 going. Say that one. Or he'd say, don't look at the head. Look at the fists, because they're 57 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,640 the ones that you're going to have to watch out for when you're interacting with a belligerent. 58 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:54,920 Luther would say such a thing. Now, Adler's point also was, if I want to see what's happening 59 00:06:54,920 --> 00:07:00,720 in my client initially, I don't want to listen to the story immediately. I actually want 60 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:06,000 to watch their body movements in the light as if in a pantomime, because they will tell 61 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:12,160 their story. They can't not tell their story, because they're not thinking about the way 62 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:17,000 they're expressing themselves physically. And the body is a part of the whole, and it 63 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000 will tell the story. Now, that's a lot of stuff around the issue of what is going on 64 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:29,680 when I want to do one thing and I think about that, but I end up doing it and feeling bad 65 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:36,760 about myself or actually harming myself. Adler's going to suggest that the action orientation 66 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:44,320 is truer to what the person believes than the actual ideal. And that the ideal might 67 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:50,280 be put there to impress myself and to make myself feel better, that I ought to do better, 68 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:56,100 I could do better. More likely, because Adler believes in the community around us, the person 69 00:07:56,100 --> 00:08:04,040 may be struggling trying to be accepted in her or his community, their community, because 70 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:09,480 they don't feel good about themselves for whatever the history is. So he would say, 71 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:18,320 it's an apparent dichotomy. We act as if there are two of us. And it is to its own purpose. 72 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:26,480 Something that he quoted Breuer, who worked with Freud early on, also from Austria, who 73 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,800 was one of the first one Adler could remember that talked about purpose of behavior, interesting, 74 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:41,600 prior to Adler, that is, what is going beyond behind the scenes is helping the person accomplish. 75 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:46,760 Just by the little scenario you gave me, it would be a guess of mine in working with such 76 00:08:46,760 --> 00:09:00,240 a person that they think they have to be right minded or not involved in self harm and like 77 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:06,680 they have to look good in the community, but they don't know how. And when they harm themselves, 78 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:15,000 they lower the expectation. Okay. And they're relieved temporarily by the fact that the 79 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:24,240 ideal has been obliterated and pushed out of the way. But also the emotion that is brought 80 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:37,200 about by the actual behavior is one that says, I can do better than that. So then they start 81 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:42,880 the system all over again, you know, and I can get up to it. So Adler told us in that 82 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:49,760 regard, always watch out for guilt feelings. Following Nietzsche's lead, he said, they're 83 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:59,600 often immoral, these guilt feelings that we can feel remorse, which Adler, the term translation 84 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:06,960 of the term remorse was an action oriented movement away from the behavior that I'm not 85 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:14,440 accepting of myself. Okay. Rather, or one can say I am guilty, which is a, which is 86 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:20,680 a judgment or an evaluation of the thing that was done. But if I'm feeling guilty, it's 87 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:28,040 not just in the Christian churches. I know this, you know, from my Jewish friends and 88 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:35,280 my Muslim friends that they also have this sense of retribution or repayment, I should 89 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:43,520 say, restitution, I mean, you're pardoned. And some people, I mean, there used to be 90 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:51,240 self whippings and stuff like that. Do your penance is one. Holy days that where we make 91 00:10:51,240 --> 00:11:00,840 repair and the like. There is in our collective understanding of humanity, that I can expiate 92 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:15,320 my sins. And then what I go back to being a sinner is how the human tends to express 93 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:21,720 him or herself in such a way. So I know that that addresses your very specific one, but 94 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:30,400 I would say generally the parts idea and Adlerian would say, because Adlerians are, I was told 95 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:37,840 as a young Adlerian, theoretical purists, but eclectic technical people, you know, whatever 96 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,440 works and whatever helps a person we're for that, if it puts them in the direction of 97 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,840 social interest and, and healing themselves so they can be helpful to other people. There's 98 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:53,360 no objection to the idea by an Adlerian that I know of talking parts in the light, but 99 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:59,540 we would look for the parts and see what they're doing for the person. And it was a fortunate 100 00:11:59,540 --> 00:12:03,260 slip that you made. They have the same goal. No, not the same goal. You said they have 101 00:12:03,260 --> 00:12:13,160 different things in mind, but there is something that says, uh, I am going somewhere. And that's 102 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:20,720 what we call purposive behavior. And take the moment to say that's also what Adler meant 103 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:29,520 and who's meant by intentionality to be intentional is not to be deliberate, deliberate is the 104 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:36,080 consciousness and to be intentional is to not know, except in a vague kind of way that 105 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,640 when I get up, I'll eventually get to the door and open it. But I'm leaving now. Thank 106 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:48,760 you. Goodbye. Intentionality is my purpose of movement through life. And, and I want 107 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:55,800 to say a few things about that because without that, some of the theoretical underpinnings 108 00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:05,800 of psychotherapy altogether fall apart. There's a fantastic author by the name of Ian McGilchrist 109 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:12,040 that you do well to interview, but he's a very interested man, a psychiatrist who talks 110 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:19,880 about the known science of the left brain, right brain kind of issues. And he says these 111 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:25,880 kinds of things, dichotomies exists. A holist, someone who is dealing with holism doesn't 112 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:32,480 say dichotomies aren't there. Left brain, right brain is a dichotomy. And it's every, 113 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:37,200 every proof that, you know, the brains are asymmetrical in this sense. Of course we wouldn't 114 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:43,640 deny dichotomy, but if they don't work together toward a whole and toward a movement through 115 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:51,120 life, they're not very good, much good to us. The left brain, roughly detail and focus 116 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:58,480 and the right brain, big view, emotions and things that are, help us understand the bigger 117 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:07,680 picture. You know, and he says, if we readapt the atomistic look, the parts approach, we 118 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:15,120 make two primary mistakes he suggests. I wanted to share those with you. One is the direction 119 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:20,640 goes instead of toward the whole, where we would understand why it's all together and 120 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:27,920 what the big meaning is. It goes backwards and down into the parts that says, what is 121 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:37,760 this part doing and what is that part doing? And then he says, possibly more serious. What 122 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:46,760 is the, let's see, he says, what is the cause of this one? And once you drop into the causal 123 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:52,580 level, it's a, it's a free for all because there's no way to get out in front of things 124 00:14:52,580 --> 00:15:01,220 on the mind level. And so he says, instead, the scientists have always gone to gathering 125 00:15:01,220 --> 00:15:05,480 the detail and then seeing what is coming of this. The scientists haven't always done 126 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:15,700 that, but greater science moves that direction. Science does this, you know, scientific atomizing 127 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:20,120 and trying to determine what each part is for. But once that's determined, you still 128 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:26,560 don't have the whole, that's the whole gestalt axiom, you know, that the sum is greater. 129 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,200 So McGilchrist just kind of puts out a warning that way and says, we are always looking for 130 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:38,080 the greater picture and we have a brain that has evolved to do that. It's never capitulated 131 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,840 to the left brain and it's never interfered with the left brain doing its thing, protecting 132 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:53,080 us, watching out for things. Okay. Now from that point, I want to share another part that 133 00:15:53,080 --> 00:16:06,120 the existentialists, et cetera, and the humanists, humanistic theories remind us that in order 134 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:15,400 to be fully human here, we have to transcend ourselves. Now that's a fairly common saying, 135 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,920 but what could it mean if we have parts? Am I transcending my parts or am I gathering 136 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:26,160 my parts together and then transcending them? Okay. Or maybe there's a simple answer to 137 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:32,720 that. I don't mean to be argumentative, you know, but I'm saying the transcendence into 138 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,960 something bigger and more important is the human endeavor that has pushed us through 139 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:46,680 evolution or pulled us through, better said, evolution for eons and eons. And so now when 140 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:57,400 I look back at the parts, okay, that you named adroitly, the question has to be to me, what 141 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:03,240 would be going on there? Maybe, I mean, I don't want to answer it, but I would like 142 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:09,800 to ask you to come back in and say, if there was a firefighter that came in, is there a 143 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:17,000 scenario you would say that this is what the firefighter is up to or the exile or the comforter? 144 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:23,320 Yeah. And that way of thinking, the exile is like the wounded part of yourself that 145 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:35,520 gets maybe emotionally overwhelmed or is under a lot of pain. The firefighter, the firefighter 146 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,600 doesn't really think about the circumstances, it just sees a burning building and it just 147 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,160 tries to put out the fire. So the firefighter could be the part of you that cuts or that 148 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:52,600 goes to something that we might see as destructive. But the firefighter is trying to distract 149 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,280 from the pain because it doesn't think that the exile can handle it. So it's just like 150 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:04,040 called in to basically cause a distraction maybe. And then there's the manager part, 151 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,560 which is the part of you that is going to be critical, tries to keep you in line, tries 152 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:15,040 to get you back on the right path, so to speak. And then there's one other part, but I can't 153 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,240 think of the other one. So they all have maybe different goals. 154 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:26,360 Yeah. Or different objectives, one would say when we're making managerial plans, we have 155 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:31,160 so many objectives, but it all goes into the same goal. It could be. I would suggest that 156 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:38,120 it'd be a good way to organize it. But I suspected this and I just acknowledge without embarrassment, 157 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:45,400 I'm not up to speed with the parts model. Although the family constellation, they had 158 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:51,280 grabbed my attention for obvious reasons, Dr. Adler. But you see, this is going to be 159 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:59,840 a hard truth or small t, small truth. Adler says, my healing is my responsibility. And 160 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:08,160 my community recognizes that and endorses me and supports me, speaking of parts, to 161 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:17,240 say, we can get through this together, but it's your job. Ideally. Okay. And in that 162 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,120 regard, Adler was not merciless, he was quite a gentle soul, to hear it from any of the 163 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:28,480 stories that we still have around about him. But he was unwavering when it came to using 164 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:35,800 his humor and his empathy and his evidently sweet, grandmotherly attitude to say, what 165 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:41,320 are you going to do about this? What shall we do together? How can I help you? But in 166 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:47,720 the end, it ends up your job. And I think that is being lost generationally, currently, 167 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:53,120 probably won't be lost altogether. But it's not attended to at all. The firefighter sees 168 00:19:53,120 --> 00:20:02,080 a fire and doesn't understand why I'm burning with this thing. It just tries to save me. 169 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,240 Thank you very much. I'll set the fire again as soon as you're gone, because I guess I 170 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:10,560 needed that fight, you know, or the exile is wandering around not understanding where 171 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,400 they belong in the lake. And you say, come here, I've found you, I'll put you to work 172 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,800 here and we'll work this out together. That would be helpful even sounds community oriented. 173 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:26,840 But if I haven't addressed why the exile, either exiled themselves, or somehow found 174 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:34,600 themselves in, you know, unconnected, there would be the tendency to go back to that, 175 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:40,840 unless there's not just a cognitive understanding, but a new, a new conviction, I can still see 176 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:52,280 it. Okay. And in what I'm trying to put across here is each of those parts has a responsibility 177 00:20:52,280 --> 00:21:00,920 to the whole to, to find the way out, which way out, there's an answer to that, because 178 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:07,200 of course, there's 360, or then in three dimensions, how many degrees are there that we can go. 179 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:14,400 But the answer is always toward the community. I have got to heal. Because I can do things 180 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:22,160 that nobody else can do. People might argue this. And they, of course, I would, you know, 181 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:28,200 accept that I would argue politely with him. But because I can't tell somebody to help 182 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:34,360 me, but I can say, I would like your help, I could use your help. I can see that you 183 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:40,280 understand things. And here we are in a great example of it. You explained to me at least 184 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:46,480 briefly enough for me to interact with you about parts models, you know, and the like. 185 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:53,680 So all of us together can do far more for the healing of the world than any one person 186 00:21:53,680 --> 00:22:03,800 can do by getting too lost in the parts issue. I would, I would say though, truly, no argument 187 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:12,200 with the parts as long as they heal enough so I can turn outward, not inward, or no longer 188 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,040 inward. That's where we start. That's what depth psychology is about anyway. But we turn 189 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:21,960 our outward because there's much work to be done. There's much work to be done. And the 190 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:27,440 many hands make light work. And it can be fun work. Ask the hunter gatherers when they 191 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:35,280 are out hunting and gathering, they're having the times of their life. Occasional danger, 192 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:42,000 of course. But I mean, that's what we learned from the civilized to death and some of those 193 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:50,200 literature out there is that the democratic familial approach to life is to say, we can 194 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:58,320 do this together. And it's always the motto of Adler to to look that way. That raise a 195 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,320 question or two. 196 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:09,920 Yeah, yeah. I think a first a few things that stand out is it seems like so with also I 197 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:15,840 recently her name is losing me right now. But the very last video I uploaded, I spoke 198 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:22,400 with the lady who started a union center for spiritual sciences. And she talked about the 199 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:28,520 ultimate goal is also to turn outward from a union perspective is also to turn outward. 200 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:35,160 And that what benefits me benefits you what benefits you benefits me and to be and so 201 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:44,360 it's and that's kind of across I think most religions as well. And it seems across therapies. 202 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:52,320 So I think that that is worth causing to note. Yeah. Because I think that is also something 203 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:58,760 that tends to get something. Yeah. 204 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:05,080 Adler mentioned this in the book you and I talked about earlier. He said, in a sense, 205 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:10,720 psychology is the late comer. And its worth is that it has in a what he calls scientific 206 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:16,800 way but in an empirical way we would say today shown that the golden rule which also appears 207 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:22,360 in all book religions and in many of the spoken religions that this is the way forward to 208 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:28,560 do to other people the way you want to be treated. You know, scientists found that also 209 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,920 a little later. And I think she's saying it from a union perspective and I say cheers 210 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,480 from the Adlerian. 211 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:50,760 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So with the gestalt picture, you have a bunch of different parts. But together 212 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:56,640 all of those parts create a unified whole. But I'm trying to think of there's an example 213 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:06,640 of because I can see what it means to say that although it maybe it feels like there 214 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:12,480 are different parts of us, there is a unified whole. And in that sense, there's a unified 215 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:22,120 personality. I'm trying to and I guess, I guess if you have like almost like a mandala 216 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:29,240 and the mandala is a is one whole thing. But there's a bunch of different parts. There's 217 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:35,840 like triangles, maybe squares and stars and and you could say that the different shapes 218 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:42,720 are fighting against one like they're they're they're butting up against one another because 219 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,440 you know, if the circles were like you need to be a circle, why are you? Why are you all 220 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:52,080 pointy as a triangle? Maybe that's kind of what we're doing in terms of personality is 221 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:58,660 we have all of these different components, parts. And it seems like they're at odd with 222 00:25:58,660 --> 00:26:02,000 one another because you've got a triangle over here, a square over here, maybe a star 223 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:10,960 here. But ultimately, they make up a mandala, something like that. Is that accurate? I think 224 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:18,880 look, this is such a good point. You've made a metaphor. You've made a beautiful metaphor. 225 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:30,160 Metaphors are meant for us to be able to communicate across the gap in such a way that my awareness 226 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:35,880 of triangles and circles and colors as you just described it, joins yours. They're separate 227 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:42,760 from one another. But that's what a metaphor does. It brings also the emotional content. 228 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:49,440 And Adler simply said, use them, but be careful. Because the metaphor isn't everything. And 229 00:26:49,440 --> 00:27:01,440 people can jump into a given metaphor. Like the tripartite mind, ego, id, and super ego, 230 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:07,960 etc. Or, you know, anyone that maybe the young would start to say, they're all well and good, 231 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:16,240 just like I affirm the family systems is good. But it's a metaphor. We mustn't mistake it 232 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:22,240 for reality. That's always a problem. Adler always, everything can always be different. 233 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,560 He insisted on it. We're only taking it from our viewpoint and the best we can and explain 234 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:33,400 it. So in that sense, it's marvelous. I can use a metaphor and as far as we can go, we 235 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,920 should go together. Then if there's still some distance to go, we need to help each other 236 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:45,320 in our own other directions. Complete that. But I want to ask you because of the metaphor. 237 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:53,000 Would you agree or would it make sense to you that the mandala itself, mandala has a 238 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:59,760 unifying principle to it? 239 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:09,040 Like a teleological one? Well, not yet. Okay, we'll get there. First step is, what organizes 240 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:16,900 the mandala? I mean, in the nuisance sense? It's usually like, it's made up of a bunch 241 00:28:16,900 --> 00:28:24,040 of different parts, but it's symmetrical. And it's usually got some type of a boundary 242 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:36,040 that even if the boundary is usually like, or if it's not symmetrical, it can be composed 243 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:41,360 of like opposites. So like the left side is one theme, the right side is a different theme. 244 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,800 Yeah, what unify a unifying principle? That's a good question. 245 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:51,840 Well, let me maybe take a guess because they're not all that is the boundary. What is equal 246 00:28:51,840 --> 00:29:01,720 distance from the boundary? Yes, that's what I would say is what it's all organized around. 247 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:09,440 And I just use that as a metaphor to share this little bit that comes from Adler's very 248 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:15,680 creative mind. But I mean, he was a doctor and he wasn't just thinking this stuff up. 249 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,600 But he certainly didn't have available to him then what we have available to us now, 250 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:30,000 which Dan Siegel is very clear on the organization of the mind starts haphazardly almost. And 251 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:37,600 chaos theory is the best explanatory theory we have nowadays for showing how the mind 252 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:43,620 finally doesn't coagulate. I'm mixing metaphors there. But it finally in a little baby has 253 00:29:43,620 --> 00:29:50,240 enough connections that it starts looking for other connections. Adler called it the 254 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,880 apperceptive schema. And we know what schema is. He says once the schema is set, we start 255 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:01,400 taking in things only through the schema. You see, it's organized itself. And I won't 256 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:08,840 even see other things, just the things that come through the schema. Now, at this point, 257 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:14,320 when he talks about the when he talks about it developmentally, he says, This happens 258 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:23,680 probably as early as your third year. Okay. Now, that's pretty close to within 18 months, 259 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:30,840 you say 18 to three years, 18 months to three years, when the hippocampus, which governs 260 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,520 memory or helps us with memory, finally ripens enough to do its thing where the amygdala 261 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:41,440 is firing with us as soon as we show up on the on the scene. But it takes a hippocampus 262 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:47,840 to organize. And as soon as we as soon as we organize, we can start having memories. 263 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:53,040 And Adler was saying, It's around this time that we have a thought about how I fit in 264 00:30:53,040 --> 00:31:02,040 here as a big brother as a new baby, as a little girl as you know, whatever the the 265 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:10,680 individuals facing at a time, they figure it out rudimentary at three years or so. Now 266 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,760 that it's that then that they're figuring out how I fit in. And that's where our goal 267 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:20,800 comes from. That's what I want to say. And that goal is like the center of the mandala. 268 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:28,640 And or is the fixing of the first neuro nets that didn't start looking to produce other 269 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:34,560 neuro nets kind of like them. And it's I'm not saying it proves it. I'm just saying it 270 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:43,000 fits in the theory that is not argumentative or dismissive of today's sciences, you know, 271 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:49,600 and we keep with would that be would that be like, let's say, just as an example, what 272 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:56,520 brings to my mind is, if you have that child, and they that's their center, and they grow 273 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:02,580 up within this family, and they start, everything builds off of maybe I'm the middle child, 274 00:32:02,580 --> 00:32:08,560 or something, or I'm the oldest, or, and then, okay, what goes along with being the oldest, 275 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:15,140 maybe responsibility, or I have to, you know, set a good example, there's different things. 276 00:32:15,140 --> 00:32:21,840 And then so then the way that they learn to manage stress or emotional pain in the family, 277 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:32,240 maybe maybe they learn that, you know, that my parents are having this emotional difficulty. 278 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:38,300 So I got to be the one that steps up and takes care of my siblings. So then they also put 279 00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:42,760 that on themselves. And when they have emotional pain, they just try to repress it or stuff 280 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:48,440 it down. Because that's the way they've managed it. They've had to push it down in order to 281 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:55,840 Yeah, does that make sense? They would come to learn that I don't pay attention to myself, 282 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:02,040 I pay attention to other people. And it's a good start rudimentary for humanisms. And 283 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,200 the like. But of course, kids are prone to the mistake of overdoing it and overcompensating 284 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:14,360 for this. And so you're suggesting this kid may well not pay attention to the self and 285 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,960 anxiety that is being endorsed by parents who aren't helping this child even do it 286 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:26,120 himself. He just mans up or woman's up and takes care of things for people. And that 287 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:32,000 organizes their understanding of themselves. Certainly it does. And I'll go this far as 288 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:38,680 to say, such a person is then at risk if you want to say it that way, for finding a partner 289 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:45,360 that they can organize that is sad like mom or dad. And when I see that, I will know I'm 290 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:52,720 in love. And now I know how to interact with this person. It's not quite that bold. But 291 00:33:52,720 --> 00:34:01,960 there you have it is how your secret goal or the fictional goal that you have suggested 292 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,720 is, I will be the helper in the family or the consoler in the family now becomes the 293 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:15,200 adult consoler. And maybe becomes a good pastor or a good doctor, maybe. But if it's a troubled 294 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:20,480 and disturbed thing to see being overemphasized, they're going to get into a lot of bad relationships 295 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:26,280 where they can console people. Maybe, you know, it wouldn't be satisfied until they 296 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:35,680 have somebody who is unconsolable, that they can press themselves to feel right about themselves. 297 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:46,120 Yeah. Okay, so let's say earlier you said that the ideal self is less real than the 298 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:54,280 way you're actually doing in the moment. Thinking of like, I have a few things around that. 299 00:34:54,280 --> 00:35:03,040 So that maybe this is my limited understanding of humanism. But I would say generally speaking, 300 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:11,560 it's like the real put like the potential is hard to explain. But like the real you 301 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:18,720 is probably is like saddled down with pain and grief and turmoil. And all you got to 302 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:25,600 do is unload like work through that, remove the barriers to growth, and then the individual 303 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:37,680 will grow. So in some ways that to me, I think of like the ideal self, all that you can be, 304 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:43,840 that's that's the you that's just being hindered currently by this pain or this stuff that 305 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,280 you haven't worked through. And if we can help you work through that pain or remove 306 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:55,240 those barriers to growth, then you will become all that you are. So that nice premise for 307 00:35:55,240 --> 00:36:03,720 therapy. What are you? What? Isn't it? I would agree. I want to, I think as an adlerian, 308 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:10,480 my colleagues would agree with this. There isn't actually an ideal self. That is a fiction 309 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:17,920 we create for ourselves. Fictions aren't false. But neither are they true or real. They're 310 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:24,640 meant to guide us through life. And, and we realize some of them, you know, but the fiction 311 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:31,720 of an ideal is to say, if I can unload these burdens that have come to me, some through 312 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:38,400 my own actions, most of them not because the world is the way it is, is to say, at every 313 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:45,240 moment I drop one of the bonds, I can progress in a direction that I don't know exactly 314 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:51,320 what it is, except I'm getting better at that. And they get better and better and better. 315 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:58,460 And I guess there's no outside limit to that. That's why Adler and Maslow liked each other 316 00:36:58,460 --> 00:37:03,640 so much, I think, but they were like minded spirits were thinking about this. And, and 317 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:10,320 Maslow could see what self actualization it has its own growth pains today. But it was 318 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:16,240 something like that. So our ideal self keeps us going. Remember, Adler said we never reach 319 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:22,280 the perfect community of social interests. But it all it always draws us toward it, which 320 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:34,200 you just described. Yeah. Is the the teleological pull? Is that so we have perhaps a biological 321 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:42,360 teleology? Is the ideal self or the fictional? I do self is a fine word as long as we don't 322 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:51,480 reify it. That's all. Yeah. Okay. What is the is is the the teleology that Adler speaks 323 00:37:51,480 --> 00:38:00,480 about? Is that purely psychological? Is that based on our fantasies or our ideal selves? 324 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,360 Is that what pulls us? Or is there something else that gives us a direction? 325 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:13,080 It's important question. The existentialist say the future is what actually draws us. 326 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:21,440 Because we maybe other animals can also do it. But humans dwell in what's going to happen 327 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:27,240 next. What about tomorrow? What about next year? What about the next crop? You know, 328 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:31,360 what about the rainy season coming? We're always thinking about that way. That seems 329 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:38,000 to be part of the organizing element. And why we are meaningfully meaningfully looking 330 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,240 toward the future for the ultimate, which includes the ideal, but the ultimate, but 331 00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:52,440 the big you is where the concept of God and Allah and Nirvana all share common ground. 332 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:58,440 You know? Yeah, I think that is part of it. I guess that's where the teleology is joined. 333 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,720 You know, there's the big one, which is kind of religious or spiritual, certainly. But 334 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:07,040 there is a normal one. I'm going to get up tomorrow morning. What am I going to do tomorrow 335 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:15,840 morning? No, that's teleology. Uh huh. I guess in a sense, isn't that just as real as as 336 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:24,200 the present? I would I would ask, why would you say that? And what is the import of that? 337 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:31,040 I wouldn't deny what you might be meaning. Yeah. Because because earlier when I was talking 338 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,600 about you have your ideal self and all this that you're striving for, you said that the 339 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:42,200 idea that ideal self is less real than what you're actually doing in the present. So in 340 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:51,600 my mind, I'm trying to get to aren't they both in some ways just as real or are we going 341 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:59,280 based on purely like an behaviorist approach? Oh, yeah. Gosh. So enter again McGillchrist. 342 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:05,120 His latest work, The Matter with Things is trying to help us understand that we are creating 343 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:13,280 this all around us. And I think he would say to you, it's exactly the same. But with limitations 344 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:22,440 in this sense, that as we approach our ideal, it shifts with our knowledge, our new experience, 345 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:28,560 the new people in our life. So whatever we had as an ideal yesterday with that was minus 346 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:35,080 the knowledge I have today, couldn't be the same ideal that I'm bringing today. See? And 347 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:43,240 but I can grow toward it in a very real way. And then speaking of Maslow, and dear Karl 348 00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:55,000 R. Yeah, Carl Rogers, you have the congruent issue, you know, that the person who is actualizing 349 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:03,880 gets a clear vision of the good, the beautiful, and actualizes that moment by moment sometimes. 350 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:10,120 And so it does become real. And it's not any longer, I do what I don't want to do, and 351 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:15,400 cannot accomplish what I want. You know, I'm, I'm thinking and loving exactly what I'm 352 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:21,080 doing. Yeah, giving it my best effort. And that's really enough for me. That's what makes 353 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:33,760 it a congruent ideal. Yeah. Um, another sidebar, and then I want to get back to the main question 354 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:46,240 is, um, the teleology then, does the teleological pool? Is it? Is there like an objective constant? 355 00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:57,160 Or does that also shift throughout time? Or both? Well, it depends on how you look at 356 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:08,600 it, where it's pointing. So Adler said, and you know, that's where I'm coming from. The 357 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:18,480 scientist should stay out of the decision about God. We can neither deny nor confirm. 358 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:29,080 It's not our job. The psychological scientist is to aid the person in their journey, but 359 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:36,900 not determine the end goal of that journey. So for a long time, as we know, psychology 360 00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:43,600 fought and still it's really popular for some of these scientists, and I respect a lot of 361 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:48,360 them, but they just argue against Christianity and religion all the time, you know, picking 362 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:53,240 the worst examples, and it's not hard to get them. Okay, fair enough. They give no credit 363 00:42:53,240 --> 00:43:00,880 to the organization of religion over time and humanizing of people. And okay, but science 364 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:12,000 isn't meant to destroy or to, um, avoid, not avoid, but deny or prove it is there to help 365 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:18,120 in our understanding. So you asked a good question, but it's to the wrong person in 366 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:27,680 a sense. Okay, so well, that's a little bit revealing, because I'm curious, my, and what 367 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:41,840 I had in my mind was, yeah, there's, there's that view that teleology is beyond ourselves 368 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:49,440 and there's also, I was wondering maybe from a psychological view, is it basically is teleology 369 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:58,840 based in on psychology or like, for instance, other points is toward community, communal 370 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:11,720 living, social, social striving. Is that like an objective teleological poll for everyone 371 00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:20,920 all the time is we're all pulled toward that. Um, but maybe there's the path toward that 372 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,600 you have a dip, you have smaller teleological polls that shift. 373 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:36,120 I'm getting the spirit of it. Yeah. Uh huh. You might be, uh, making it more real in your 374 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:45,880 mind as a pool even then, then I would work with, uh, in the, in the client arena. We 375 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:50,480 only know there is tomorrow and it feels like I want to be there tomorrow. So I'm going 376 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:56,200 to act as if I'm going to wake up tomorrow and get on with my work. And it's just day 377 00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:03,800 by day, minute by minute, et cetera, that kind of thing. But the Tilo's teleological 378 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:12,120 viewpoint certainly predates, uh, Aristotle and those, those people and Thomas Aquinas, 379 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:19,200 the theologian picked it up and, and kind of adapted it to the Christian model, which 380 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:25,880 liked or not. It's a theme that, uh, shows up as heaven and hell and, you know, purgatory 381 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,920 for the Catholics and things like that. But those are all metaphors, according to the 382 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:37,120 psychologist psychological look, not judging it as only a metaphor if one believes in its 383 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:44,760 actuality, but there's no proof for it on this side of the issue. And, uh, you know, 384 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,320 people would argue it's in the written word. Therefore that's the proof. Well, that's a 385 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:54,000 different kind of proof and it's for, you know, different people. But, um, yeah, it's 386 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,120 been around a long time and it was poo poo for a long time. But as science has become 387 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:06,360 more physics and the like and more expansive physics itself starts to not prove, but at 388 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:14,800 least approve of this kind of thinking and what's next. What's next is teleological. 389 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:33,400 Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, is it too simplistic to say that? So the way I was thinking about 390 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,400 it earlier is you have this ideal version of yourself that you're working toward. And 391 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:44,800 a lot of times you follow through with that ideal. You, you make a donation, you help 392 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:52,480 someone. Um, but then you, you go home and you do something against your ideal. Um, and 393 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:57,000 I was looking at that as kind of like two different parts of yourself wanting different 394 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:05,560 things. Um, and basically what I got from what you were saying is that we are basically 395 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:13,160 we are complex. We are more complicated than that and kind of, uh, what we are doing right 396 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:28,320 now is, uh, cause, okay, so let me backtrack. You were talking about when someone comes 397 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:33,400 into your office, it's not so much about what they're saying, but about their body language 398 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:43,720 and then they're, yeah, their actions. So I guess there, there are, I could see someone 399 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:51,000 in my office and their actions say, maybe I interpret their actions as someone who is, 400 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:58,640 yeah, a very helpful, genuine person is, um, trying to be honest and transparent, but then 401 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:05,140 they leave my office and then they go push someone off the sidewalk. Right. So our actions 402 00:48:05,140 --> 00:48:11,880 vary from time to time. Um, so yeah, I'm still struggling. 403 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:19,480 This is really fair, Daniel. I think I've got the gist of this. Um, you're right in 404 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:26,040 my limited office. I will only see so much. That's why we do the lifestyle questionnaire 405 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:30,440 to understand their early memories and their interactions with their family, et cetera. 406 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:37,920 So we try to see as much as we can see in that regard. If he tells me, I left your office 407 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:44,820 last week and the frigging sidewalk was so busy and no one was moving, I had to push 408 00:48:44,820 --> 00:48:49,800 somebody off the sidewalk to get home again. I'd be curious about that. And I'd ask that 409 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:57,560 person to compare that with the kindness I had interpreted when he saw that bug in my 410 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:02,680 office and he didn't stomp on it. Can you tell me about that? I want to hear them put 411 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:07,840 that together first because we all have stories. Our left brain will always exonerate us and 412 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:16,160 tell us this is what, this is the reason I did that. Okay. And then in our work together, 413 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:24,400 if that person is trying to grow by that, I mean, incongruency and toward an ideal self 414 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,640 that they may have imagined or may not. And I would want to stimulate their thinking along 415 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:34,680 the idea of a better and better and better self. We then have some baseline to start 416 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:41,760 with to see how many people he pushed off the sidewalk next week and next week making 417 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:51,560 light a little bit. But the incongruence is not a puzzle to me. It is the norm in a sense. 418 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:58,360 If you allow me just a minute, I'll tell you what the depth adlyrients anyway make of that. 419 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:02,440 Adversaries always look for movement. That's the idea of action, you know, but there's 420 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,560 psychological movement and physical movement, emotional movement, all of this is movement. 421 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:26,320 It tends in a given predictable direction. And if a person is moving one way, well, I 422 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:31,760 may have just concluded this, I had more to say, but it's skipping me right now, is that 423 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,640 we want to see if they are being consistent or not. And we will always reference them 424 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:42,560 in that regard, not just what we're seeing, you know, what their emotional tone is and 425 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:48,120 the like to see if there is a congruence that is starting to develop. And if they feel they 426 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:59,760 are, by the way, the ideal, the self-ideal, we've been talking about, ego-ideal or whatever, 427 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,320 we would say it's not very clear to people. The one they can tell you about is not the 428 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:13,960 one they're going for, as far as going, is the counter-fiction. There is a need for a 429 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:26,680 person or to look social, even if they're not being social, except for the really sociopathic 430 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:33,280 mentality and the like, they want to look good. It's a plague nowadays to look good 431 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,360 in front of people because of screens and stuff like that, but they want to look good. 432 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:45,000 And so he may well just in the office, the person we were talking about, want to put 433 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,920 on the show for me so he can go tell his friends, yeah, my therapist thinks I'm pretty well 434 00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:56,560 put together. So that becomes the counter-fiction, that kind of behavior. It's not at all social 435 00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:04,240 interest, as you and I have talked about before, which is the motivator to accept help as needed 436 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:09,120 and to do both of those things for the betterment of something beyond. Whether I can formulate 437 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:15,080 it just then or not, I'm leaning in that direction. So we have to be aware of that counter-fiction 438 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,920 and we look for it all the time because the structure of movement has to do with your 439 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:26,200 inferior feeling, your fictional goal where you're compensating and going for. The counter-fiction 440 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:33,280 covers the goal because it's not very social usually, at least in the clinical population. 441 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:39,760 And then your measure of social interest, and that is metaphorically the direction of 442 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:45,080 the movement. Is it toward and helpful to people or is it a way or against or somehow 443 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:53,320 hurting people, your movement? And so this just occurs to me, the counter-fiction is 444 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:59,520 a part. It could be a part. It could be a bothersome part. People usually don't disown 445 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:04,760 it. They just say, that's not my better self, or I was just being a rear end. That kind 446 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:10,800 of dismissiveness goes nowhere to move into a congruent zone where the person would actually 447 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:16,600 be more happy with themselves. 448 00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:24,120 I guess that you said, maybe I'm just very ignorant, but I'm trying to follow along. 449 00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:32,680 You said that incongruency does not give it any trouble in your conceptualization. And 450 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:43,280 I'm thinking like, yeah, congruency to me is almost more important than if you are, 451 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:51,040 like congruency to me is one of the most important things. Maybe I don't know how to explain 452 00:53:51,040 --> 00:54:03,880 it, but so if you are incongruent, how can you be unified but incongruent? 453 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:13,560 Well it's a million dollar question. You said it earlier yourself, it's not incongruent. 454 00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:19,480 It's just an apparent incongruence. If you get deep enough, you see what is really going 455 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:24,720 on and where they're really going. And if they say, I want to be this, but there's no 456 00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:31,040 action in that direction, that's a deception that they're putting out because they want 457 00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:37,320 you to think I'm that, but I don't want to make the effort. I didn't want to say, 458 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:46,280 I mean to convey that, oh, we're all incongruent and what's the heck. My point is, we are all 459 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:53,560 not there yet and incongruencies likely show up. That is the human error. But to not be 460 00:54:53,560 --> 00:55:01,000 concerned about that and be running the government on one level and going home and beating your 461 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:09,560 partner on the other, that kind of stuff is a blight on humanity. So we are always working 462 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:16,920 toward congruence to be sure. But first in the therapeutic area, nobody to date has come 463 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:23,880 to me saying, presenting problem, I want to be congruent. I want to introduce it to them 464 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:32,480 and gently and sporadically and see if I can catch their interest in it and get them leaning 465 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:37,580 forward to tell me more about that. Because it's going to take what we call here a lot 466 00:55:37,580 --> 00:55:48,200 of good hard work. But that's Adler and the reference to the repentant sinner, to Jean 467 00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:56,120 Valjean is that he never tired of helping people. Once he got it straight in his head, 468 00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:00,440 he spent himself in that direction and he enjoyed it. I'm not saying everybody should 469 00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:11,880 be Jean Valjean, but it wouldn't hurt the world if we were going that direction. So 470 00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:18,040 it's that person who understands I have been helped. I couldn't have done it without somebody 471 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:23,760 else. And I guess since I'm still alive, why don't I pay it back? Or why don't I participate 472 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:29,520 in that? I can never pay it in a way. I don't know if I have to feel beholden that way. 473 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:34,040 But I feel loved and I want to love people with this. So what's wrong with that? That's 474 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:41,000 good, hard work. It's effort, not trying. It's not just trying to be a nice person. 475 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:48,040 It is making the effort to correct myself, to understand my language, to root out those 476 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:55,040 things when I see a person that's different from me and I feel repulsed. That's a pretty 477 00:56:55,040 --> 00:57:01,160 good indication that I've got some work that hasn't been addressed. Wendell Berry being 478 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:07,920 the example of trying to bring white males to an understanding of part of our legacy 479 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:12,440 without being afraid of it, without being proud of it either. That's not neither are 480 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:18,240 appropriate. We've got work to do. We've got healing to be done. 481 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:31,240 Okay, that makes sense to me. I think I understand it. And I think also, as we've talked more 482 00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:35,960 about it, even with like the internal family systems, it makes more sense to me thinking, 483 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:43,720 like you said, they all have different objectives. But the ultimate goal is for the whole system 484 00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:50,400 to move toward, you might say self actualization or healing or growth. They just have different 485 00:57:50,400 --> 00:58:01,120 objectives on how to get that to happen. How much time do you have? Can I have your off 486 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:02,120 for a second? 487 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:09,760 Yeah, I'm loving it. I have two topics. One, you were just talking about like Jean Valjean 488 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:19,040 and how he got to such a, you might say like a high place, a place of internally motivating 489 00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:28,840 love for other people and helping oriented. There's like, I'm trying to think of how to 490 00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:37,680 explain this, but I've heard, I don't know exactly if I interpret this correctly, but 491 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:42,520 like the tree with the branches that reach higher into heaven has roots that reach deeper 492 00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:52,880 into hell. I might be saying that wrong, but some that that concept. And like, if you if 493 00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:59,040 you have a whole personality and you have the side that's oriented toward good behavior, 494 00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:07,880 toward doing good things, there has to be some type of a compensation. Like nobody can 495 00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:15,520 and I don't know, almost like the more good the more good that you're able to produce 496 00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:24,400 and send out the more capacity you also have for evil or for wrong. I don't know if that's 497 00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:29,280 I'm still trying to understand that or even work through my misunderstandings of that, 498 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,800 but I was curious what you think about. 499 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:43,400 Yeah, I would. If I were to assent to that, I haven't thought about such a thing in quite 500 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:52,440 a while, but it would seem to me from Adler's guidance, he said dichotomies generally are 501 00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:58,440 developmental issue. Kids have to dichotomize as they organize their world. And some people 502 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:07,320 forget to update that, you know, and so we end up with heaven and hell. Adler said, we 503 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:13,520 have to remember, all opposites are still in the continuum. They're variants of one 504 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:21,440 another. They're not true opposites. Okay. So if I took that concept and said that taller 505 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:27,240 branches represent deeper roots, I would say, but that's within a forest, you have to remember 506 01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:33,400 that and both of them are variable. You know, and I would also say if it's going deep because 507 01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:39,240 it needs that kind of grounding to keep it upright, it's reaching for nourishment and 508 01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:50,800 moisture, etc. Which is to say, who's to call that evil? You see, just because it's dark 509 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:59,000 and dank and sometimes swampy and full of creepy crawlies. Well, it's keeping the tree 510 01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:03,000 alive. But see, there's a relativity going on there. That's what Adler wanted to bring 511 01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:17,120 us to. So sorry, I've got a phone here. Sorry. The relativity. Yeah. But I would just say 512 01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:25,720 that to look at heaven and hell, or any kind of dichotomy is to put it in, we have to put 513 01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:31,960 it back in a continuum or some fashion of a three dimensional world, or it's, it's a 514 01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:48,360 metaphor gone wrong. So I and you've just given the expression of Oh, gosh, antithetical 515 01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:55,880 antitheticals in Adler's world, we're how we locate ourselves in life, you know. And 516 01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:01,720 we have to watch out for them. If I'm not popular, everyone hates me. If I haven't gotten 517 01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:08,320 an A on the test, I'm an absolute failure. That's antithetical thinking. And and it's 518 01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:14,760 a it's a blight. And it doesn't. It just it makes me self focused. Instead of saying, 519 01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:24,240 I exist in a continuum, or in a three dimensional world, you know. So yeah, okay. And then this 520 01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:29,000 is this is completely separate. But this, I've been thinking about this for a while. 521 01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:36,840 And you mentioned this earlier. So you were talking about restitution and how people would 522 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:41,840 engage in like self deflation. And you Yeah, you sin and you have to repent and then you 523 01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:50,440 send your pet. And so this is purely from a psychological point of view, my question 524 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:57,960 might the way I'm trying to understand this currently. If you think about the different 525 01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,960 religious perspectives, and I'm going to focus mainly on Christian perspectives, because 526 01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:09,480 I'm most familiar with that at the moment. And maybe the typical like you mentioned Luther 527 01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:16,960 earlier, he came up, I don't know, he came up with it, but his whole was like the penal 528 01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:24,840 substitution. So so God was wrathful, and he needed justice. And then Christ died on 529 01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:32,320 the cross to fulfill that wrath and to pay our sins for us. And then as long as we accept 530 01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:40,180 that gift through faith, then we are saved. And I was thinking, I remember thinking like, 531 01:03:40,180 --> 01:03:45,800 why couldn't God just forgive? Why does why does there have to be a price that was paid 532 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:52,600 or a blood sacrifice? Why couldn't God just forgive? And then so thinking psychologically 533 01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:59,600 about it, I'm gonna use mixed terms and things. But I was thinking, like, if God represents 534 01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:05,400 kind of our like, individually speaking, our super ego or something like our own morality 535 01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:15,320 of holding us to a higher standard. And and then when are we if you've ever worked with 536 01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:21,220 someone who has what you might call a harsh super ego, the unrelenting high standards 537 01:04:21,220 --> 01:04:25,920 for yourself, and you try to tell them, Oh, just forgive yourself, that's that doesn't 538 01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:34,880 work. And so then, then, okay, well, if if that's represent if the super ego or the harsh 539 01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:39,760 super ego represents God and that kind of framework, what is Jesus? Is he just like 540 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:46,360 a scapegoat like a defensive projection onto something else that pays the price for us, 541 01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:55,360 which then causes the super ego to be a little bit less harsh for him for a time. And then 542 01:04:55,360 --> 01:05:00,920 that's why we focus on Christ as the scapegoat, and we feel better, the super ego lessons 543 01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:06,960 and then we come back around to realizing how sinful we are and then so that that process 544 01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:21,720 repeats itself. My reflection on that is that the the substitute 545 01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:30,240 substitutionary payment theory, or theology is one among several Christologies. And I 546 01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:36,320 don't mean to judge that I think that's not the best one for today. Because it does make 547 01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:47,640 God the Father into a brutal, unforgiving monster. And it's what the those earlier 548 01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:54,080 scientists I was talking about, glory and that kind of stuff, because they they can't 549 01:05:54,080 --> 01:06:02,040 understand it. And frankly, trying today to understand it, when it was actually a an issue 550 01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:07,520 2000 or more years ago, when it didn't make better sense, because the world was organized 551 01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:16,440 that way. Doesn't mean we have to only embrace that Christology, the book of James and the 552 01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:23,040 book of Peter and the books of john, all say it a little bit differently. And so there's 553 01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:28,960 different ways to say it, you know, because I would not subscribe to God being just a 554 01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:36,280 voice in my head. God is an endpoint. See, my issue would be, God is the fictional final 555 01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:41,680 goal that might not be fictional. That's that's not for me to decide. He is the ultimate goal. 556 01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:49,040 Adler said it was social interest, pure social interest, which means all of us are functioning 557 01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:55,360 for the best of ourselves and others. And it is the harmony of harmonies in the end 558 01:06:55,360 --> 01:07:01,800 that we can never reach, but we can always strive for. And Jesus stands as that that 559 01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:09,000 is the alpha and the omega that one of the Christologies. Okay, he is all in all. And 560 01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:14,640 that's not substitutionary substitutionary. It's a different kind of approach to understanding 561 01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:25,320 Christ, you know, I think that this is where I would go with that. Yeah. Yeah, I see. I 562 01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:31,840 want to share these names again. David Bentley Hart is a orthodox Christian theologian and 563 01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:39,520 philosopher. And he has interviewed McGill Christ, and they have a great mind meld that 564 01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:48,160 it's worth watching. If you can remember those those names. But Ben, the art is no soft thinker. 565 01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:55,600 And he has an idea that is well worth modern or contemporary Christians looking at what 566 01:07:55,600 --> 01:08:03,040 this endpoint looks like. Because his metaphor allows for God to be God, but us not to ever 567 01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:10,080 get there, you know. And there is forgiveness for everyone. That's the nature of God. Everyone. 568 01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:17,160 At some point, in the end, all the horrible people we can think of also, because God's 569 01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:22,800 love would heal anyway, that's a universalism, they call it. I'm just saying it's, you know, 570 01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:26,200 these are good people thinking through ways just like Paul was trying to think through 571 01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:40,080 it and on some of these guys. Yeah, I guess I'm thinking of like what that so kind of 572 01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:46,760 the the repentance center like Jean Valjean or or the kind of the Christian message is 573 01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:58,840 that we have been accepted and we are loved as we are. And that then has such an effect 574 01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:06,880 on us that it promotes us toward doing the same. And for for people who have a difficult 575 01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:18,080 time with self acceptance, even even Christians who I know, I've been familiar with someone 576 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:25,800 who almost felt like he twisted Jesus's arm into dying on the cross for his sins. And 577 01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:33,940 that was how self critical and harsh with himself that he was someone like that who 578 01:09:33,940 --> 01:09:45,240 has a difficult time feeling accepted. I guess I'm trying to think through so that penal 579 01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:53,040 the penal substitutionary theory, psychologically speaking, that seems to work for some people. 580 01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:59,160 And how does it work? Well, maybe it works through scapegoating or projecting or something 581 01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:04,920 like that. But for someone who it doesn't work for, and they just don't feel any self 582 01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:13,180 self acceptance, how do you maybe move someone toward understanding that they are the way 583 01:10:13,180 --> 01:10:18,880 that they are they're just they're loved and they're accepted? Yeah. I got I'm trying to 584 01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:25,360 think. Great. I mean, these are so challenging. So I go back to John Valjean and I go back 585 01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:31,640 to a not that it's the only thing, or even the best thing, it certainly is the best for 586 01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:37,480 some. But it accepts you as you are, and accepts people who have finally accepted themselves 587 01:10:37,480 --> 01:10:42,600 as they are, you know, and there is a freedom that comes with that ask anybody that attends, 588 01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:48,320 there's a freedom that comes from that. And they are also spiritually based, some people 589 01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:53,800 would argue religiously. But, you know, they've done great things with the higher power and 590 01:10:53,800 --> 01:11:04,000 they've but the idea of being forgiven is only one aspect of the whole thing. And that's 591 01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:09,760 what John Valjean found out that that was an instantaneous thing in his life that he 592 01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:18,320 did not expect. And he didn't worry about it. He just got to work because he was inspired, 593 01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:25,000 literally, to give back. And I think that's the message of Jesus. I mean, sorry, it doesn't 594 01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:32,720 matter what my what I think about it. But there is within the scripture itself. Jesus, 595 01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:41,880 Wow, I don't just Hans Kuhn. Jesus, in a sense deserved to die because he had broken the 596 01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:51,160 laws that said he had broken. And to the authorities at the time, he was a malefactor. You know, 597 01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:58,920 he was he was talking to embrace prostitutes and forgive people and he's not God. So how 598 01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:06,680 can he do that? And, well, there's a lot of stuff that he did that got him crucified. 599 01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:12,200 But that wasn't the last word. That's all I can say about it. I don't think it's so 600 01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:17,200 much an issue that he died for me because I deserve the same thing. I don't know about 601 01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:22,000 punishments today. They haven't worked for it never worked in because you still got criminals 602 01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:27,120 around, you know, and the death penalty that they're still trying to bring in, you know, 603 01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:33,520 step back and in human development. It doesn't work. It is not a retardant. The only thing 604 01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:41,720 that works is love and acceptance and teaching them. I understand incarceration might have 605 01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:48,120 to be helped for some people who feel they cannot turn the corner as criminal psychopaths 606 01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:53,800 and like, but they should not be treated like animals. They should be treated respectfully 607 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:59,600 as much as possible. So I just set aside that whole thing of substitution. Punishment is 608 01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:08,840 not what God was about. And God was not punishing Jesus, in my opinion. The model is that we 609 01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:14,360 can follow a way that is socially interested in if there was ever an example, and there 610 01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:21,720 has been so have been several examples of people imbued with social interest. Clearly, 611 01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:27,880 Christ was one of them. And how could we deny Buddha that he was, you know, in aspects of 612 01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:33,520 Muhammad, certainly or what who am I to limit it? I don't know all the stories. But I'm 613 01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:37,720 not trying to equalize them. I'm only saying that they have been people on fire with the 614 01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:43,520 idea of the potential of the human being. And with with a personal relationship of some 615 01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:50,840 sort with their teleology. I'm going somewhere with this. I'm happy to take people with me. 616 01:13:50,840 --> 01:14:01,720 You know? Yeah. Yeah. Well said. May I say something about the parts and whole thing 617 01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:11,080 that we started with? You jangled this in me before. I would like to say that I'm in 618 01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:21,200 no way saying that any model today is better or worse or should be outed or not. My message 619 01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:26,680 has always been pay attention to Adler, because you can enrich your field from that point 620 01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:39,020 of view. And I think also, not all theories or techniques or programs today are for everybody. 621 01:14:39,020 --> 01:14:45,640 But they are for certain people. And I'm happy for the richness of the field. You know, having 622 01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:51,720 said they're not for everybody, some people need to go further. And there has to be a 623 01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:57,680 depth psychology, depth psychotherapy, I believe, to take people the distance when that is called 624 01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:05,680 for and chosen, you know, and elected or asked for. And where the parts model, I think it 625 01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:13,400 is a healing element that should be well studied, well applied. And if the person wants to go 626 01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:19,960 further with something, then they should certainly go further. You know, maybe not every theory, 627 01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:27,800 nor is every therapist for every person. So there's a little bit now that can help everybody. 628 01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:40,200 That's my only constant message. Yeah, no, I like that. Yeah, I think this is a good 629 01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:46,960 place to stop for now. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the engagement and the 630 01:15:46,960 --> 01:16:04,440 topics you bring up. Really, we're in tune. No, thank you.