1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,560 Hello and welcome to today's episode of the AFRI NUC podcast. 2 00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:09,600 Have you wondered where the decoupled podcast got its name from? 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,040 How about the advent of modern healthcare? 4 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:17,240 Where do you pitch your tent when juxtaposed with the traditional environmentalist thoughts 5 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:20,680 or the eco-modernist futuristic premise? 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:26,240 In this episode of the AFRI NUC podcast, we are joined with a Canadian medical doctor, 7 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:31,640 Chris Kiefer, who will be on his way to COP26 in Glasgow, Scotland. 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:36,600 We discuss his passion amongst other compelling and thought-provoking actionable concepts 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,760 on electricity and how it relates to healthcare. 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:46,120 He unequivocally bears his mind and you will sure admire his drive. 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,680 If you listen to the end, you will even hear how nuclear contributed to saving a son's 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,440 life and how we all can do it. 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,880 Relax and relish the city-lating soundbites through the cradle of humanity while with 14 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:06,440 the couple the African nuclear landscape or AFRI NUC in the decoupled podcast. 15 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:18,800 Dr. Chris, I usually ask my guest to introduce themselves and tell us a bit about themselves. 16 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:23,160 So please, can you tell us about yourself? 17 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,160 Yeah. 18 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,160 Absolutely. 19 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:33,040 So I am an emergency physician working in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. 20 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:38,880 Ontario is the most populated province in Canada and it's nuclear-powered. 21 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:45,520 We rely on nuclear for 61% of our electricity and actually use nuclear power to phase out 22 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,320 coal, which used to be 25% of our electricity. 23 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,920 So I joke that Ontario is the France of North America. 24 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,920 I'm very proud to be here and I'm pretty new to nuclear. 25 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,920 I do not work in the industry. 26 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,960 I have no ties. 27 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:07,560 And what drew me to nuclear was a concern about climate change as I became a new father 28 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,160 and I just got hooked. 29 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:17,000 It's an area that I think is probably one of the most misunderstood and the more you learn, 30 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:22,360 you know, it's just such an illuminating field with so much potential in the context, 31 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:29,160 again, of climate change, energy, security and air pollution and other issues which are 32 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,840 very important to human health. 33 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:32,840 That's great. 34 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:33,840 Wonderful. 35 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:42,080 Like when I looked through your podcast, the heading alone gave me a very interesting, 36 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:50,600 like made me recall something I read about the decoupling of the energy system and I 37 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:58,600 read it in the Eco Modernist manifesto written by Michael Schellenberger and his team and 38 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,000 other people. 39 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,560 So it was at the end, they like said that we need to decouple. 40 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,960 So I mean, like, and when I stumbled on your podcast, it rang a very strong bell. 41 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:13,760 So I was wondering how you got the title for that podcast, if it's very much in tandem 42 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,800 with that write up or it's just a coincidence. 43 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:18,800 No, absolutely. 44 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,880 I mean, I think when people initially heard about this podcast, they thought, you know, 45 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,160 is this a relationship podcast? 46 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,280 Is this relationship advice? 47 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,120 You know, there's a lot of talk about economic decoupling, you know, between China and the 48 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,160 USA during the Trump presidency. 49 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,360 So people get confused about that. 50 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:39,680 But you're absolutely right. 51 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:45,240 It's a reference to a concept that I took from the Eco Modernist manifesto. 52 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:53,240 And again, it's this idea that we can maintain the journey of human progress, of human flourishing, 53 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,720 that we can all live better lives, that the developing world can continue to develop. 54 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:03,960 But there's a way to do that by the use of the right technologies, which allow us to 55 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:09,440 continue that journey of human progress while not impacting our environment, while not making 56 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,800 climate change worse, while actually improving a lot of environmental markers. 57 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:15,800 So it's very inspiring to me. 58 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:22,240 And it's very much in contrast to what I'll call, you know, mainstream environmentalism, 59 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:29,320 boomer environmentalism, eco romanticism, whose whole premise is one of nostalgia that 60 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,000 we need to return back to simpler ways. 61 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,720 And it's very much an expression of, you know, a environmentalism that emerges from 62 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:44,440 the wealthy world, from the rich world, where we can sort of romanticize a low energy lifestyle. 63 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,880 So it's been a really fascinating journey. 64 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,160 As you're mentioning, I've got to speak to people around the world. 65 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:59,480 I did get to speak with, I'm going to butcher his name, but Gal Palve, a wonderful individual, 66 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,480 a nuclear engineer from South Africa. 67 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,360 So we have dipped our toes into Africa. 68 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:10,920 But you know, it's, it's, I'm very, very happy to be interviewed by you and to learn from 69 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:11,920 you as well. 70 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:12,920 Very cool. 71 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:19,800 Yeah, you know, when I was listening to some episodes of your podcast, I saw some very 72 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:24,520 interesting interviews you've made, which I would not want to delve into, to dilute 73 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,000 what I, the natural flow of our conversation today. 74 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:33,880 But I kind of, since you started making inroads into Africa, I would like us to talk a bit 75 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,800 more about the climate or the climate or the situation we find ourselves. 76 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:44,160 So your podcast, I would like to say if I hope it sounds in consonance with its meaning, 77 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:49,320 I think it's more about sustainability because you are talking about how you can, since you 78 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,520 are now a recent dad, congratulations about that. 79 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:58,920 And yeah, yeah, you need to create a future or hope to have a future that your children 80 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,840 will live in without any harm or such sorts. 81 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:11,080 But in Africa, you know, most developing countries have exploited this means of sustaining themselves. 82 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,360 We consider that today. 83 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:19,560 And in Africa, you know, we are still a bit more trying to catch up, if I would say. 84 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:25,800 And I kind of am tempted to think that we should not worry about what the people in 85 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,320 the first world is like where you are worrying about. 86 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:35,760 But when I think of sustainability and why we should always think of the future, then 87 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:41,320 I would like to like, okay, say, okay, we need to also consider what these people are 88 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:42,320 saying. 89 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:48,800 So when I was reading through the Eco Modernist Manifesto, since I think, and you have also 90 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:56,560 confirmed, this is where your podcast took its title from, I kind of in, I think, somewhere 91 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,800 in the middle of the chapter of that book, it was talking about the climate condition 92 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:08,880 in Africa and how Africa should not be worrying about mitigation, but rather to adapt instead. 93 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:14,920 And that brings me to the concept of nuclear energy, which a major part of your podcast, 94 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:20,040 though not just focused on, has dealt with it in a very amazing way. 95 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:26,360 It has seen you go through different countries holding standoff for nuclear campaigns in 96 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:32,880 different parts of the world and also having you to feature in Glasgow coming up in November. 97 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:40,840 So I kind of think, what do you think I want to ask in a kind of question way? 98 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:47,800 What do you feel is the point that should make the strongest case for nuclear, not just 99 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:55,320 in the developing world, but in the underdeveloped or developing world like Africa where I find 100 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:56,320 myself? 101 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:57,320 Dr. Chris? 102 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:02,000 I mean, you've said some really important things there. 103 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:08,000 It is not Africa's responsibility to solve the climate crisis. 104 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,840 I think Africa is responsible for something like 3% of the world's historic emissions. 105 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:22,360 It is countries in the developed world, in the industrialized world that have this climate 106 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,800 debt to repay, and we can talk about climate reparations. 107 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,000 There's also within the discourse, particularly North America, the idea of reparations that 108 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,640 need to be paid due to the colonial history, the slave trade, et cetera. 109 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,560 So I'm very much of that opinion. 110 00:08:39,560 --> 00:08:45,800 And I think Africans have every right to develop the traditional environmental discourse, states 111 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:52,320 things like, if everyone is to live like Europeans or North Americans, we'd need eight planets. 112 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:58,600 And this concept of limits is something that has some degree of merit. 113 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:07,760 But what the promise of decoupling offers is an ability to expand, again, human flourishing, 114 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,920 expand what the limits are, what we can all achieve, what kind of lifestyles we can live, 115 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,240 what kind of healthcare we can have. 116 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:20,400 And I think nuclear is the reason I focused on it so much in my podcast is because it's 117 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,040 truly the ultimate decoupling technology. 118 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:28,600 This is an energy source that's a million, two million times more energy dense than fossil 119 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:29,600 fuels. 120 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,000 And let's be clear, fossil fuels lie at so much of what we've achieved in terms of human 121 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,400 progress, in terms of increased lifespans, in terms of decreased child mortality. 122 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,360 My own three-year-old son would be dead if it weren't for the high-energy society I live 123 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:44,360 in. 124 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,560 He was in an incubator for a month. 125 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:50,560 There's a lot that fossil fuels have done. 126 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:57,160 However, it's time to do what we can to move beyond them because of some of those side 127 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,560 effects like climate and air pollution. 128 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:05,400 However, Africa has every right to use and exploit its fossil fuel resources to improve 129 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:06,960 its level of development. 130 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,440 And I think, you know, I was talking about climate debt and this idea of climate reparations. 131 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:16,920 I think it's on the developed world, those countries that have nuclear programs to really 132 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:23,200 encourage the development of nuclear in Africa so that Africa can, to some degree, leapfrog 133 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:28,800 fossil fuels and move into this highly sustainable energy form, which, again, because of that 134 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:37,120 energy density, is able to offer the most minimal of mining footprints, the most minimal 135 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:44,200 of land footprints in terms of siting of power stations, and a decoupling from carbon emissions, 136 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,320 almost an absolute decoupling from carbon emissions, and an absolute decoupling from 137 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:49,320 air pollution. 138 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,120 So you can have the benefits of fossil fuels, certainly in things like electricity production 139 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:59,160 and hopefully soon in process heat, but without those side effects. 140 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,920 So that's why I'm so passionate about nuclear energy and why I think it's such an important 141 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:10,360 thing for Africa and why I think the developed world has a duty and a debt to repay and 142 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,520 I think a really compelling way, you know, hope I would have from my own country, Canada, 143 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:20,440 who has developed the Can-Do Reactor Technologies that we would be sharing that, you know, quote, 144 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:25,320 unquote, intellectual property and assisting African countries in developing their nuclear 145 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:26,320 programs. 146 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:27,320 It's cool. 147 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:36,800 It's quite inspiring, wonderful contributions on how nuclear can help us upscale our development. 148 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:42,080 And it's also very interesting to know how the first world used, like when I was talking 149 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:52,040 with Robert Bryce, the host of the Power Hungry podcast, you know, he was like, okay, so when 150 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:57,160 you need something, first you need to be healthy, first you need to be on your food first before 151 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,800 you talk about sustainability. 152 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:05,000 You need to actually get food on your table, if I may say, if I'm describing in terms of 153 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,480 being hungry before thinking of the nutrition it offers. 154 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:16,240 So maybe he gave an illustration of maybe just like you said, your baby being an incubator, 155 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,040 he gave an illustration of maybe you were in an accident. 156 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,320 You were not thinking of a car that emits carbon. 157 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,080 You want to get to the hospital through any possible means, right? 158 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:37,000 So yeah, that's quite very much in agreement with what is needed and what is maybe more 159 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,880 adaptable to sustainability. 160 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:48,360 So I would like to ask you, if you may say, what really brought you to this level of, 161 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,440 I know your podcast is not totally about nuclear energy. 162 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:58,320 You are also more concerned about other aspects of life or science that improves human life 163 00:12:58,320 --> 00:12:59,760 and the future. 164 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,120 So why did you think nuclear? 165 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:08,880 I know you've talked about the energy density, but given the most recent event in Fukushima, 166 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:14,080 you know, it's enough to actually discount and also discard the nuclear option as one 167 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,000 of those that will help our society or the future. 168 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:23,960 So I mean, like being a medical doctor, I don't know, does that have any relation? 169 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:33,960 And yeah, is there any kind of maybe parallelism in your profession with your support for nuclear? 170 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,840 Maybe that's maybe some people in the similar profession might want to learn from. 171 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:39,840 Yeah. 172 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:40,840 Absolutely. 173 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:46,360 So, you know, within medicine, you know, we're at the bedside. 174 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,720 We're assisting patients in the here and now, but we're also taught to consider what's 175 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,400 called upstream causes of disease. 176 00:13:53,400 --> 00:14:00,080 And these would be things like social determinants of health, poverty, air pollution, etc. 177 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:06,360 And so I'm always thinking about world problems from the perspective of something in emergency 178 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:12,280 medicine that we call triage, which is this idea of how do you match limited resources 179 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,360 to achieve the greatest outcome? 180 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,200 It's a little bit utilitarian, but I think it has a lot of merit. 181 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:26,040 And so, you know, as I've come to see climate change is really one of the most important 182 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,400 aspects that's, you know, and challenges that we face moving forward, both in terms of mitigation 183 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,600 and adaptation that really has brought nuclear to the fore. 184 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:40,000 Now you mentioned Fukushima, you know, we hear about this accident, we hear about Chernobyl, 185 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,200 we hear about Three Mile Island. 186 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:50,120 It's very interesting the way in which the scare around nuclear weapons really raised 187 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:57,280 fears of the toxicity of radiation and it created a bit of a boogeyman in this sense. 188 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:02,680 You know, as a physician, I administer radiation every single shift in the form of x-rays, 189 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,680 CT scans, diagnostic imaging, etc. 190 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:14,320 And as a result, more familiar with doses and able to make comparisons with nuclear accidents. 191 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,480 So what people don't know is that for the surrounding communities around nuclear plants 192 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:25,520 that experience an accident, we're still talking about low doses of radiation. 193 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:31,320 And there's been this conflation, for instance, in Fukushima, even in the national broadcasting 194 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:37,200 agency in my country, they said that the Fukushima accident caused 20,000 deaths. 195 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,160 And this is a conflation with the tsunami. 196 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:44,440 You know, you had, I think the third most powerful earthquake ever recorded, it shifted 197 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:50,240 the axis of the earth by several centimeters, created an enormous tsunami, flooded a nuclear 198 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:55,740 station which led to the meltdown of three reactors and no one has died as a consequence 199 00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:58,680 of radiation, zero. 200 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,440 You know, the doses received by some of the workers were in the order of, you know, 150 201 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:04,960 millisieverts. 202 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,720 But those of the surrounding countryside were quite low. 203 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,640 And we know from what I will reference as the scientific consensus, which are the studies 204 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:21,440 conducted by UN agencies, the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic 205 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,240 Radiation, etc. 206 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,720 That the real harm from nuclear accidents is not radiation. 207 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,320 It's actually panicked responses to radiation. 208 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,480 So there were deaths as a result of the panicked evacuation around Fukushima. 209 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:42,480 I have a great friend, Ida Ruisham, who runs the Thoughtscapism blog, and she did an analysis 210 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:49,880 of mortality from air pollution versus returning to the prefecture of Fukushima, to the towns 211 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:54,320 that were most affected by some of the radioactivity. 212 00:16:54,320 --> 00:17:00,720 On the basis of its impact on shortening life spans, we should be evacuating most of Tokyo, 213 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,040 all of Shanghai, most polluted cities in the world, because we have good data on air pollution 214 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,720 and its effects on limiting lifespan, knocking off five, six years of lifespan living in 215 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,280 some of these areas. 216 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:17,160 And the impact of radiation, it's knocking off days to weeks potentially. 217 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,120 You know, in terms of artificial radiation, right, we're all exposed, we live in a radioactive 218 00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:25,240 world, we're constantly exposed to radioactivity. 219 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,360 Depending on where you live, if you live at higher altitudes, you're getting more cosmic 220 00:17:28,360 --> 00:17:30,920 rays, you have less insulation from the atmosphere. 221 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:36,720 If you live in areas like say Denver, Colorado, in the United States, soils that are rich 222 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,680 in uranium and higher elevations, you're getting doses of radiation similar to what you'd 223 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,960 get living in most of the Fukushima prefecture. 224 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,440 So should we evacuate Denver, Colorado? 225 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:49,440 Should we evacuate that whole state? 226 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,360 Should we evacuate Kerala, India? 227 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:56,480 No, and that's what people don't understand is that the effect of radiation is no different 228 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,680 if it's an artificial source or a natural source. 229 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:04,120 And what's interesting in terms of the artificial sources of radiation in the world, that's 230 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,760 about 15% of the average person's yearly dose. 231 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:14,720 93% of that artificial dose is from me, from medical practitioners in the form again of 232 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,040 diagnostic imaging and radiation therapeutics. 233 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:23,880 So there's a gross misunderstanding amongst the public and fear mongering by anti-nuclear 234 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,240 activists that have hugely distorted the dangers of nuclear energy. 235 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:34,040 And this has led to regulations that go so far and above and beyond the relative risk 236 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,920 of nuclear compared to any other technology that it's really slowed its development. 237 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:43,680 And that's a tragedy because energy poverty kills, air pollution kills, climate change 238 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,480 kills, and we have a way around this problem with nuclear energy. 239 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,200 So that's why I've become so passionate about it. 240 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:55,960 We need to address these upstream effects of health. 241 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,480 And I say this as someone who's a passionate clinician who loves being at the bedside with 242 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,040 patients, but I would love those patients to not have to end up in hospital in the first 243 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,040 place. 244 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:09,360 I would love to make myself unemployed and redundant because the social term is of health 245 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:10,360 had been taken care of. 246 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,600 Well, that's all I'll tristic of you. 247 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,240 I really hope that more people like you populate our heads. 248 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,880 So yeah, quite understand because even the illustration you made about the air pollution 249 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:29,680 was more evident during the COVID lockdown, you know, when they took the imaging of the 250 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,400 effects, like they made a comparison of how China was before the lockdown and how it was 251 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,680 and the cold consumption and like the carbon footprint was less. 252 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:46,560 And it was so evident that air pollution was hot in us more than what radiation will 253 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:47,560 do. 254 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:55,040 And yeah, it's quite interesting how people kind of focus on what should not be focused 255 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,320 and also depriving themselves of the benefits of nuclear. 256 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:07,200 So you have said that this is what actually motivated you to do the couple podcast amongst 257 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,200 other interests. 258 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:15,200 I've also listened to your interview or your conversation about other aspects of science 259 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:24,400 or the eco modernist creed where you talked about the GMOs and stuff like that and how 260 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,920 it relates to the modern health. 261 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:34,680 So I kind of think are you kind of a futuristic person that looks into the future and tells 262 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:40,200 us, okay, hey, this is the path to follow or like you're like trying to show us the right 263 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,480 direction to go as things emerge. 264 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,280 I don't know. 265 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,400 Sometimes I listen to and I read the book of Yovale Noir Harari. 266 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,680 So he's like a kind of futuristic person that sees the future and tells him, look, this 267 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,520 is what you should be doing to meet the future that is coming in front of you. 268 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,080 So is this similar to that? 269 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,640 Like, I know, like you've really given a good capture of it. 270 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,800 I would never be so bold. 271 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:06,800 Yeah. 272 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:07,800 Yeah. 273 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:08,800 Okay. 274 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:09,800 So. 275 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:10,800 Yeah. 276 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:18,680 I would never be so hubristic as to attempt to predict the future. 277 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,600 Although that's a temptation, but I am future oriented. 278 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,440 And what I really want to emphasize is that traditional environmentalists are past oriented. 279 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,560 They're nostalgic for an imaginary past for a garden of Eden that they think we can return 280 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:33,560 to. 281 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,000 And again, this is very much an expression of a movement which has its origins in the 282 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:43,520 elite and the wealthiest of the developed world. 283 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:50,680 In terms of being future oriented, you know, the history of humanity is tied up in technology. 284 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,920 Homo sapiens as a species would not exist without fire, right? 285 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:56,080 Cooking our food. 286 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,080 This is what enabled us to shrink our guts and grow our brains and eat more nutritious 287 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,720 food and evolve as a species. 288 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:10,040 We throughout our history have used technology to solve problems, right? 289 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,880 Technologies also created problems, but we're in this continuous cycle of innovating, developing 290 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,160 new technologies to solve both the problems of previous technologies and other issues 291 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:20,720 that we face. 292 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:27,480 So you know, I'm really in a, in a thought process these days, you know, as the threat 293 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,400 of climate change becomes more serious. 294 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,840 And the phrase comes to mind, innovate or die. 295 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:40,480 And I know that sounds a little bit hyperbolic perhaps, but you know, the catastrophist 296 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,720 environmentalists talk a lot about, you know, billions of people dying as a result of climate 297 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:51,080 change, you know, simultaneous crop failures, you know, tropical diseases getting worse, 298 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,240 et cetera. 299 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:59,120 They may very well create self-fulfilling prophecies if their, their ideology steers 300 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:03,920 decision making, because for instance, you know, we talked briefly about genetic engineering. 301 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,720 If we're going to have more drought, more saline soils, more crop diseases, we need 302 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,040 to use the best available technologies, the most potent technologies to deal with that. 303 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,120 And that is things like gene editing and genetic engineering. 304 00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:22,320 Africa needs a green revolution in order to feed itself and become truly independent just 305 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,440 as India did in the seventies. 306 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,280 That green revolution can be more ecological because of genetic engineering. 307 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,360 But ironically, this environmental movement that pretends to care about the environment 308 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:38,760 and I think pretends to care about human beings and their wellbeing is involved in trying 309 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,680 to deny Africa the very tools that it needs to solve these problems. 310 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,440 I refer to this as a kind of eco imperialism. 311 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,960 So the pressure that has been put on African countries not to use genetic engineering through 312 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:57,680 threats of the EU banning imports, for instance, of whole countries, if they experiment with 313 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,600 genetic engineering is a moral and it's shocking. 314 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,960 And it's a neocolonialism and a neo imperialism. 315 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:13,800 And it's something that I absolutely reject and think that needs to be fought off. 316 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,400 So yes, I am very future oriented. 317 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,080 I'm very pro technology. 318 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,040 We can't be afraid of technology. 319 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:28,280 And I'm very interested in understanding youth culture around the world. 320 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:34,840 I was speaking with someone on my podcast, Dr. Tinker, blanking on his first name. 321 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,120 I think it's Dr. Stephen Tinker. 322 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:43,040 And he's done a lot of traveling around the world looking at energy, its impacts on people. 323 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,480 And one of the things that he mentioned to me was that youth in the developing world 324 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,240 in Africa and South Asia seem to have a sense of optimism about them. 325 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,240 That's very much missing in youth in the developed world. 326 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,720 And that's, I think, because you guys are some degree seeing progress, you're seeing 327 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,680 electrification, you're seeing the benefits of technology. 328 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:12,200 Whereas in the Western world, youth are full of climate anxiety, full of a kind of nihilism, 329 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,200 full of a sense of hopelessness and powerlessness. 330 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,760 And that's something that I'm very much committed to fighting because at this time, what we 331 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:28,200 really need is to invest so heavily in education, in the future engineers, the future mathematicians, 332 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,800 the future scientists who will help guide us through the challenges that we face by, 333 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:39,360 again, developing the technologies and deploying them that can, again, decouple human flourishing 334 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:43,080 from environmental stressors like climate change. 335 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,280 Maybe we should have an exchange of environments, maybe that will help you achieve your aim 336 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:48,280 better. 337 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,880 I mean, you talk about the youth in Africa and those in the developed world, yeah, the 338 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:54,880 interests are different. 339 00:25:54,880 --> 00:26:01,920 But because of the popular media, people seem to, I mean, generally people don't, like 340 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:07,640 the young people, the least of their concern in this part of the world is climate. 341 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,040 You don't see people gathering and talking about climate. 342 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,040 No. 343 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,960 What we need to talk more about is how to make money, like how to meet the basic needs 344 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,680 that is plaguing the society. 345 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:20,680 So yeah. 346 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:27,760 And I kind of think since you are much in front for nuclear and the environment seems 347 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:33,800 not too favorable, although they developed what is like showing leadership in their legislation, 348 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:40,960 like trying to adopt new measures or maybe create new avenues to welcome in nuclear, maybe 349 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,400 making them to have new builds. 350 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:51,520 Like the environment, like from what I had recently in the COP26, there is the green 351 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:52,880 and the blue zone. 352 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:59,320 So but I really don't understand what the position of nuclear is going to be like your 353 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:00,320 presence there. 354 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:06,880 I don't know, like, if there's any hope for the nuclear community, I don't know what 355 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:07,960 needs to be done. 356 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:14,240 But I don't know, like, it's really looking bleak in my opinion, but I hope that things 357 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,120 change in the near future. 358 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:22,440 Like do you have any submission observation or what needs to be done in this regard? 359 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:23,920 Absolutely. 360 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,960 And, you know, I'm actually quite optimistic. 361 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:34,560 There was a nuclear renaissance or beginning of a nuclear renaissance in the very early 362 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:40,840 2000s as we faced what seemed to be peak oil, and it just made energy and economic sense 363 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,960 to pursue nuclear energy, just as it did during the OPEC crisis in the 70s. 364 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,440 Nuclear flourishes when fossil fuel prices are high, when fossil fuels are unavailable. 365 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,680 It's interesting renewables flourish when gas is cheap, when the backup is there, when 366 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:01,520 you can afford a whole parallel generation system to operate when the wind and the sun 367 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,520 do not cooperate. 368 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,920 I think that's a very interesting observation. 369 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,040 And so, yes, there's a real importance for advocates. 370 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:10,880 Because it depends on it. 371 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:11,880 Yeah. 372 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,920 You know, there's very big importance for advocates like you and me to raise consciousness 373 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,280 around nuclear energy. 374 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,600 But in the end, it's pragmatic things that lead to our energy choices. 375 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,920 And so right now we're facing a global energy crunch. 376 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:31,120 Europe is facing natural gas prices that went up a thousand percent, and they've made themselves 377 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:32,840 highly dependent on natural gas. 378 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:39,840 Again, because of this bizarre pursuit of what I call a Rube Goldberg grid, you know, 379 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:47,600 this eco-romanticism, this idea that we need to return to nature, that all things natural 380 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,520 are good, has led to this bizarre policy, and sorry, end the sphere of nuclear, has led 381 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:58,800 to this bizarre policy of trying to base the very heart of civilization, the electric grid, 382 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,880 on the weather. 383 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,680 And the weather has not been cooperating in Europe. 384 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,440 Wind production is way down, 10, 20 percent down. 385 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,360 And so what's been needed to fill in the gap? 386 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:11,480 Fossil fuels. 387 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:18,200 Gas coal is the number one generator in Germany right now, Germany, which poses as, you know, 388 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,320 an environmental and climate hero, the number one source of electricity, 27 percent of their 389 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,360 grid has been coal this year. 390 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:30,800 So in that context, we're seeing what I think is the beginning of a nuclear renaissance. 391 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,920 You know, France just came out saying that we're highly supportive of nuclear. 392 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:40,320 We need to reinvent nuclear announcing a major investment, the UK as well. 393 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,000 You know, there's going to be a real rush for the world's available fossil fuels. 394 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,920 And I'm very worried for Africa, for countries of less means. 395 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:48,920 Germany can get through this. 396 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:49,920 They're a very rich country. 397 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,640 They'll burn whatever they need to. 398 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,960 They'll buy the limited reserves of energy. 399 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,520 But I'm very concerned. 400 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,280 You know, Lebanon is in a total blackout. 401 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,240 I'm not sure if the grid is still down, but their entire grid went down for a number of 402 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,720 days and that means hospitals were without power. 403 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:08,960 People died as a result. 404 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:09,960 This is catastrophic. 405 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,600 So I'm very concerned about that. 406 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,840 But this energy crunch, I think, does pretend a possibility of a nuclear renaissance. 407 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,440 And you have to remember in the early 2000s, South Africa was talking about installing 408 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,400 something like 12 gigawatts of nuclear. 409 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:31,480 You know, they were signing a deal with Rosatom to start on that process. 410 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,680 So I think that just the pragmatics, the reality of the global energy crunch is going 411 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,240 to lead to a nuclear renaissance. 412 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:44,840 And I think, you know, probably China is going to become the source of a lot of that 413 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:50,320 nuclear technology for Africa because, you know, they're very interested in soft power. 414 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,360 They have enormous foreign reserves. 415 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:58,520 They can create, you know, business agreements within Africa where they take on a lot of 416 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,120 the financing. 417 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,080 And I think pragmatically that's how nuclear is going to get built in Africa. 418 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:08,800 And I think in the next 10, 15 years, we will see nuclear renaissance in Africa. 419 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,680 It only makes sense with high fossil fuel prices. 420 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,280 Nuclear is the solution. 421 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,640 Renewables are not. 422 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,600 And we can talk more about that if you like, but it's a little bit of a... 423 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:27,520 It appears more real because, yeah, giving credence to China being the front, although 424 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,360 Russia is also like trying to up its hand with China. 425 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:39,800 But given the depth most African countries have towards China, it might be very reasonable 426 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,200 for them to just use their financing to get whatever they want. 427 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:51,120 But nuclear reactors, the experimental ones, like the one in Nigeria and Ghana, I think 428 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,000 they were supplied by China. 429 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,600 So it's quite natural if they come into obscurity to the plant size. 430 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:04,440 So quite agree with you in what you've been saying about nuclear renaissance. 431 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:12,520 And I think there is a palpable fear because in Africa, most things like boils down to politics. 432 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:20,120 People don't always talk about rational thinking or imagination or how to deploy technology 433 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,680 based on its perceived benefits and stuff like that. 434 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:25,960 Politics is a very major issue. 435 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:32,920 And I think that's what made the initial plan of the South African government to bring 12 436 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,880 gigawatts of nuclear not to actually materialize at this point in time. 437 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,200 But hopefully in the process of time, it comes back up, but politics is a major issue. 438 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:51,160 So I think we should also try to see how we can infuse politics in the advocacy for nuclear 439 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:58,040 and how we can maybe make the policy makers and the politicians to buy into the idea of 440 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,120 nuclear. 441 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,920 And I wonder like how is the atmosphere in Canada? 442 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,960 Like is there more in front for nuclear? 443 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,320 Is there any effect in it and their policy? 444 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:14,680 And how is the future like over there? 445 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,400 Well, it's very interesting. 446 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,640 In terms of this idea of a nuclear renaissance, the West has proven in the last 20 years that 447 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,440 we suck at building new nuclear. 448 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,800 The failure of the nuclear renaissance, I think, owes itself to three issues. 449 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:36,400 One is the fracking revolution, which led for historically low natural gas prices, which 450 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,080 have put a major stress on nuclear. 451 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,040 High natural gas prices, what we're pushing the renaissance, right? 452 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,880 Fukushima was a major issue and led to the decision to phase out nuclear in Germany, 453 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,880 for instance, in a real freeze on, say, nuclear builds in China. 454 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,520 And lastly, the incompetence of the nuclear industry in the West to actually get reactors 455 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:56,520 built. 456 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,840 We know that it's possible to build nuclear reactors cheaper than coal. 457 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,320 Certainly South Korea was able to do that. 458 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:09,560 And in the early days of nuclear in the 60s and 70s, nuclear was the cheapest form of 459 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:10,760 energy. 460 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,560 We know that's possible. 461 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,600 Now, the West keeps thinking that the answer to its inability to build new nuclear is to 462 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:23,000 come up with different designs, to experiment with different scales, advanced nuclear, small 463 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,680 modular reactors, AP 1000s, EPRs. 464 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:33,080 And if you look at the countries that have had success now and are successful now, particularly 465 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:38,000 South Korea that I think is really an example to hold up, they looked around the world at 466 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,760 that time and said, who is building nuclear? 467 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,640 Who's getting it done on budget and on time? 468 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,400 What designs are working? 469 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:50,920 And they had the humility to buy those designs, to pay those experts to come and teach them. 470 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,200 And they learned how to be an absolute world leader in building nuclear. 471 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,680 And they've just done it again in the Emirates, which I think is, you know, it's a wealthy 472 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,280 country, but that's an example of what's possible. 473 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,520 Now in the West, again, what we need is humility. 474 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,000 We've deindustrialized. 475 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:16,160 The West is starting to decay as we see countries like China rising, even India, etc. 476 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,200 And so in the West, I think what's really needed is for us to be humble, to learn from 477 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,600 the Koreans, to learn from the Chinese, who's doing this on budget and on time? 478 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:24,760 What designs are you doing? 479 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:32,280 But instead, we're putting all our eggs in the basket of SMRs and advanced nuclear. 480 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:33,640 Is there a need for SMRs? 481 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:34,640 Yes. 482 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,640 And particularly in Africa, where we have, you know, smaller grids, you don't want to 483 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,240 install a power plant that's more than 10% of your grid capacity, because it's going 484 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:43,240 to have to come offline for fueling and etc. 485 00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:45,840 I don't want to say that there's no role for SMRs. 486 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,240 But my real concern here is that we're not learning the lessons of the past. 487 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:56,120 And so my fear in Canada is that we are abandoning our Kandu technology, which is an amazing 488 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,120 technology. 489 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:02,400 You know, it was designed to get around some of the challenges that Africa faces. 490 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:03,400 We do not enrich uranium. 491 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,320 We're able to use natural uranium. 492 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,280 And we don't have heavy forging. 493 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:15,280 So we created a design using these pressure tubes and non-enriched uranium, which I think 494 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,120 is very applicable to Africa. 495 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,720 And indeed, you know, we are helping some countries like Romania build Kandus, but we're 496 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:22,720 not doing it here at home. 497 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:25,200 And I think that's a real shame. 498 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,240 You know, we are much more concerned about climate change because we're a decadent country. 499 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:33,280 We can afford to do that, unlike many developing countries. 500 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,840 And as a result of, we're talking about electrification of sectors like transportation. 501 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,320 You know, Canada is one of the highest greenhouse gas emitting countries in the world per capita 502 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,880 because a big part of that is because we have long distances between cities, lots of commutes, 503 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:48,880 big cars. 504 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,120 So if we need to electrify everything, we need to two to three times the size of our 505 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,280 grid. 506 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:58,440 And doing that with small modular reactors just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 507 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,640 So you know, that's my little kind of rant on that topic and on how things are going here 508 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,720 in here in Canada. 509 00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:07,400 And I think hopefully that's applicable more broadly. 510 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:08,400 Yeah, yeah. 511 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,760 I mean, like, you need Africa to prove that you can do it once more. 512 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,040 Like bring that calendar here. 513 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:17,040 Yeah. 514 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:18,040 Okay. 515 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:25,920 So the future of, yeah, the future of the youth and the youth in Africa is changed upon 516 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:34,240 both leadership decisions and what innovations they imbibe and also what they do in terms 517 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:41,040 of their daily lives and the kind of energy that powers the activities. 518 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:46,800 I kind of wonder, so many young people that are listening to us right now are wondering 519 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,960 like what is the future in nuclear technology? 520 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:58,440 Recently we had a kind of show in Nigeria kind of telling people about the different 521 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:05,040 aspects of nuclear technology, the applications to medical aspect inclusive. 522 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:13,920 And so many people expressed so a large level of oblivion in terms of what nuclear technology 523 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,920 is and how it can benefit them. 524 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:23,920 So many people, one, I had somebody talk to me saying that so many students in the institution 525 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,880 she attends do not know a lot about nuclear. 526 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,080 And when they mentioned nuclear technology, they are kind of wondering what are they talking 527 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,080 about? 528 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:38,360 So there is a lot of room for education and training in this part of the world. 529 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,080 And I think that's largely applies in many parts of Africa. 530 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:49,600 So I think a lot needs to be done to educating people on how this technology can improve their 531 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,040 lives and make them live a better life. 532 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:59,600 But the question I want to ask is how can the young people be more connected to this 533 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:00,600 technology? 534 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,840 You live in a different climate where people are more concerned with higher ideals. 535 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:11,200 But here, given our peculiar conditions, but I would not want to exclude us or exclude 536 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:17,000 the African society from the level of thinking of the Western world because technology has 537 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:23,760 really exposed us to different ways of doing things and make things happen in synchronization. 538 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:28,680 You might begin to wonder if people do things the way you do it over there, you'll be surprised 539 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,240 to see that people are even living their advanced life here in Nigeria or in other parts of 540 00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:37,280 Africa because of what the information technology exposes us to. 541 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,680 So I wonder, like, is there any way you think we can be in synchronization with the Western 542 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:48,040 world here in Africa in terms of what the knowledge and the benefits and the kind of 543 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,600 things, the way of thinking, the way we should do things or go about promoting nuclear technology 544 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,560 in our world here. 545 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:56,560 Doctor. 546 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:01,760 In addition to perhaps what has been done before. 547 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:10,440 I think one of the themes that you've been mentioning here is that in Africa, the concerns 548 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,280 are very pragmatic. 549 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:17,920 The concerns are poverty eradication, which requires reliable energy. 550 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:24,560 Now Nigeria, from what I understand, spends 12 to 17 billion dollars a year on generators 551 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,240 because the grid is unreliable. 552 00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:33,960 There is eight times the grid capacity in terms of generators, diesel generators, because 553 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,360 people can't trust the grid. 554 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,280 It's constantly going down. 555 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,200 And a stable grid, as Robert Brice says, is it is the network of all networks. 556 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,040 You cannot develop without stable electricity. 557 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,240 And just think about that, 12 to 17 billion dollars a year. 558 00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:54,680 I mean, that could build you a gigawatt nuclear reactor every year. 559 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,040 Ten billion dollars is approximately what it might cost, maybe lower if the Chinese 560 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,920 do it or Rosatom doesn't. 561 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:01,920 And what would that give you? 562 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:07,640 That would give you reliable electricity with which you could develop and build this much 563 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,520 higher quality of life and also rid yourself of some of those higher order issues of air 564 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:13,520 pollution. 565 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,160 So that's just one thing. 566 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:22,080 But access to electricity is an issue, I think, throughout the developing world, rural electrification, 567 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:23,080 et cetera. 568 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,040 But if your electricity is not reliable, people don't trust it. 569 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,040 And they defect from the grid. 570 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,200 And that's a major development issue. 571 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,840 Let me talk about a few other issues that people don't think about. 572 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,600 Food irradiation, right? 573 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,080 This is a key technology. 574 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:45,000 We know that about 40% of the world's food is wasted post harvest because it spoils or 575 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:51,120 goes bad or people, you know, and food irradiation can drastically extend the lifespan of fresh 576 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:56,920 fruits and vegetables, grains, et cetera, by selectively killing off bacteria, fungus, 577 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,560 et cetera, make food safe. 578 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,680 It's estimated that in the US, a developed country, if we did more food irradiation, 579 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,920 we could save 5,000 lives a year. 580 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,360 This is in a developed country. 581 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,240 So imagine what can happen in the developing world with that. 582 00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:11,080 And again, people are terrified of radiation. 583 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,320 Food irradiation does not make your food radioactive. 584 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,920 It does not affect the nutrition of the food. 585 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,680 It saves lives. 586 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,840 Lastly, medical isotopes. 587 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,680 Canada is a huge producer of medical isotopes. 588 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,640 We do it in our power reactors and our can do. 589 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,760 So that's yet another argument for can do. 590 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:34,520 We produce enough cobalt 60 to sterilize 20 billion pieces of single use medical equipment. 591 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,400 This is equipment that you can't sterilize an autoclave because you'll melt it, you know, 592 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,280 endotracheal tubes, IVs, gloves, masks. 593 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,000 Everything with cobalt 60. 594 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,920 So you know, the way I put this is you can't have modern health care without medical isotopes. 595 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,400 And that's just not, that's not just for diagnostics and cancer treatment. 596 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:01,520 That is for the very foundation of sterility, which enables surgery, which enables the safe 597 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,880 provision of health care. 598 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,720 So these are some of the things which are offered by nuclear technology that I think 599 00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:12,440 people don't think of very, very often. 600 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,480 And you know, I think some people think that, you know, nuclear is a very expensive way 601 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:21,560 to boil water, you know, and should Africa not be doing it in the most cheap and affordable 602 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:22,560 way? 603 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:23,840 Do they not have every right to do that with fossil fuels? 604 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,560 They do. 605 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,200 But fossil fuel prices are going up. 606 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:33,280 And I think that these other benefits of nuclear should be weighed into the occasion. 607 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:39,840 And I think having a diverse set of generating sources on your grid is absolutely essential. 608 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,800 And we know that, again, nuclear can be done in an inexpensive manner. 609 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:44,880 It's not easy. 610 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:45,880 It's not easy. 611 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,840 But there are countries that are figuring it out around the world and we need to learn 612 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:49,840 from them. 613 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,560 We need to be humble and benefit from this amazing technology. 614 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:55,560 Wow. 615 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,800 Thank you so, so much for this amazing output. 616 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,000 And your narration has been quite inspiring. 617 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:07,880 I mean, like I never expected to have such an informative and enlightening session with 618 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:08,880 you. 619 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,800 But I have noticed now the Nigerianization of our grid has happened. 620 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,560 You know, there is no light, you see? 621 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:21,640 So evident, you know, so I quite appreciate your computer has a battery. 622 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:22,640 Yeah. 623 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,000 And it's almost complaining to go off now. 624 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:31,040 But before it does that, I would like to really appreciate your time. 625 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,400 You are a convergence of practical knowledge. 626 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:41,640 You are you've engaged in altruistic advocacy and you are a positive of elegant modern world 627 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,160 with a view on sustainability. 628 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:49,320 You really giving us a lot of content and ideas on how to develop in our parts of the 629 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:54,320 world and also being tandem with the eco-modernist manifesto. 630 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:59,720 So Dr. Chris, I wonder, like what is the thing that actually keeps you going? 631 00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:02,880 What are the measures you are dubbed to keep you? 632 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,240 You jostle a lot of activities. 633 00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:10,640 I see you advocating for the other health professionals and you also advocating for 634 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:16,560 nuclear and you are hosting the decoupled podcast and you do several other things in 635 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,960 addition to your emergency physician practice. 636 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,920 So like, how are you able to manage this different task? 637 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:31,280 I wonder like, yeah, maybe it's going personal now. 638 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:36,520 Yeah, I have a lot on my plate. 639 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:42,520 I don't sleep very much, but I think it's just this passion that drives me. 640 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,520 Wow. 641 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,280 If I'm interested in something, if I care about something deeply, I can make the time 642 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,280 for it. 643 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,960 And I mean, COVID has been interesting. 644 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:57,520 I can't say I have the best social life in the world as a result of COVID and lockdowns, 645 00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:58,520 etc. 646 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:04,560 I've had sacrifices and everyone does things for different motivations and maybe I have 647 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:09,120 strange motivations and grandiose motivations. 648 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,080 But I find a way. 649 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:20,440 I don't have a great sort of prescription or answer there, but I guess other than passion. 650 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:28,120 And again, living in a high energy society, I have so many benefits, which mean that I 651 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,720 don't have to consume lots of my time with the basics of survival. 652 00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:33,720 Right. 653 00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:37,640 When you think about extreme energy poverty, I have a washing machine. 654 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,920 I don't have to fetch firewood for fuel. 655 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,800 This isn't a, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to mischaracterize Africa. 656 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,720 I know there's high levels of development, pockets of that. 657 00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:53,760 I don't imagine Africa in that light, but I know in areas of deep energy poverty and 658 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,520 rural areas that that is something that really limits people. 659 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,720 So that's why I bring that up as a little factor there. 660 00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:02,720 Okay, sure. 661 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:03,720 Yeah. 662 00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:04,720 I don't know. 663 00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:09,920 It's been quite interesting to hear from you and I would like to call this one the 664 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,360 the coupling of the African nuclear landscape, if I may say. 665 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,680 I don't know if that's really falls in place. 666 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:21,280 So I wonder if you have any last words to tell our audience, people listening to us, 667 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,720 the young people, the old leaders and the lead. 668 00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:30,160 I don't know anything like that. 669 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:31,160 Absolutely. 670 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:35,200 I mean, at first off, it's an honor to be on this podcast. 671 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,800 I have enormous admiration for the work that you're doing. 672 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:45,640 I have enormous admiration for Africa more broadly and particularly the youth. 673 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,240 You're the future of the world. 674 00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:54,120 You know, this is an area of underdevelopment that I think is emerging and is going to see 675 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:58,120 very important moments in the coming decades. 676 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,680 And just as I was saying before in the West, unfortunately, our youth culture is one of 677 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:07,120 nihilism is one of hopelessness is one of dropping out. 678 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:14,200 And from the little I know and have seen in the developing world, they're huge struggles. 679 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:19,320 But I think there's an energy amongst the youth to embedder themselves, to learn to 680 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,760 study, to gain a profession and ultimately to contribute. 681 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,720 And I think there's so much potential there. 682 00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:31,400 So thank you so much for having me on the podcast. 683 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:38,680 It's a real honor to be able to communicate and share some of my thoughts with a predominantly 684 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,760 African audience. 685 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:41,760 Thank you so, so much. 686 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:46,880 And I sincerely appreciate hoping to talk to you some other time in the near future. 687 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:47,880 Dr. Pierce. 688 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:48,880 Absolutely. 689 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:55,880 Thank you.