Prosperity drives electricity use and electricity drives prosperity.
Welcome to today's episode of AFRING Podcast. On today's episode, we have a very strong evangelist
for clean, baseload electricity across the globe, Robert Bryce. On today's episode, he's going to
give us interesting perspective on his book that he has written and also the movie, Jules,
How Electricity Explains the World. He's going to be telling us a lot about the focus on electricity
and how it affects developing countries and also the work he has been doing. So, I would like to
ask Robert, please to introduce yourself. Sure, happy to. Well, first, thank you for having me on
the podcast. My pleasure. A few technical challenges we worked through, but we're here now. So,
so who am I? My name is Robert Bryce. I'm a dad. Three, my wife, Lauren, and I have three great kids.
They're all grown and out of the house, but all doing well. Mary, Michael, and Jacob.
Married to Lauren. We've been married for 35 years and I've been a very lucky man.
On my professional business, I'm an author, journalist, a podcaster of made a film, and I write
about energy, power, innovation, and politics. And so that keeps me busy. Published six books,
several more than a thousand articles, and there's a lot going on both in the US and around the world
in energy and power. So how's that? Is that good enough?
Don't so much justice to that question. And I was going to delve more into it because I was
reading about your book on the one you wrote about power and how it affects the world and
energy kind of. So you talked a lot about, I saw the introduction and your purpose of actually
writing that book was the experience you had about Nigeria. Can you tell us a bit about how you kind
of transcended in that kind of experience and like developing your plot for that book and the
movie as well? Sure, sure, of course. So now I'm in my, I just turned 61. So I'm an old guy, right?
But I remember many years ago, and it was decades ago that there's a very popular news
television program in the United States called 60 Minutes. And they, this is decades ago, I remember
that one of their reporters was in Lagos. And he was reporting on the electricity situation
Lagos was talking about. And it was kind of, you know, kind of this, you know, this old head shaking
kind of white guy goes to Africa like, what are these crazy people doing? Right? They didn't have
an, you know, his point was that they didn't have enough electricity in Lagos and that there was a
big bank of batteries in one of the warehouses that used for backup power. And then in 2016, I read an
article in the New York Times about continuing power shortages in Nigeria. And I thought, well,
why is this? Why is this country that has so much, so many people, so much intellectual capacity,
so much great oil and bass wealth? Why can't it manage its own electric grid? What is the problem?
And so that led me to then I got a contract for, well, this book, a question of power,
I go from my, my publisher, and started working on the book. And as I started working on the book,
I decided, well, I'll make a, I'll make a documentary to how hard can it be? And well,
it was pretty hard, but I got it done. But it was, Nigeria really was the, the, the, the, the,
the thing that the catalyst that made me think, well, why is this? What, why are some countries
able to electrify and others not? And Nigeria still has its challenges and in getting enough
electricity. And that was one of the reasons why I did these projects. Thank you so much.
What do you think you will do if you take another cross-review about the situation in Nigeria right
now and taking a look at the book you have written? Do you think you will still emphasize what you
emphasized previously or you think a solution is closed or maybe giving some new ways of solving
the energy challenge? Do you think anything will change maybe from what you observed or wrote about
in the, in the book? Because I'm really very much concerned about like it's, because the last time
we tried to talk, we actually had some electricity challenge due to the grid incapability to handle
some natural, do I say, events, because when it rains sometimes they have to off the light from
the grid because of some, because it's not able to handle that kind of natural event. So we still
have some long way to go if I would say from my analysis, but at some point I think we have gotten
it right somehow because some places tend to get some light and there are some independent solutions.
Sorry for taking so long to actually explain the point, but I know you are quite understanding
what I'm driving at. Yes, of course. Well, I think this was something that is not unique to Nigeria
and one of the things in going, in going around the world, we went to Lebanon, we went to India,
Puerto Rico, Colorado, New York, Iceland, what are the three in pairs for, for a successful
electric electricity system? Yeah, it's integrity, capital and fuel. And unfortunately the problem
in Nigeria and this is something I'm not saying something that I don't think will offend you,
the problem in Nigeria and other countries where the electric grid is weak is the society doesn't
have integrity. There are, that leaks too much, right? You have corruption and this is not again,
not unique to Nigeria, but wherever there is a lot of theft, wherever there's a lot of corruption,
as I put it in the book, theft is the enemy of light. And when people get into a political power
situation where they can take some money, oh, it's just a little bit and then somebody else takes a
little bit, everybody takes a little bit, well then there's no money left. And this is the problem
that you see in Nigeria and India, other places where the Lebanon, Iraq, where electric grids are
problematic, where they're, you know, the lights don't stay on all the time, where people have a
lot of small generators. This is what they have to do to keep electricity going because they have
to have their own electric generator in order to make sure that they have power. So this is a
problem that still, and this has not changed at all in my view. And it's a problem now in the
United States, the integrity of the political system is undermining the electric grid.
Okay, that's interesting. You made a note about the electricity generator and that's a very common
trend here. And I get really pissed off. I get really, really pissed off when the sound of the
generator, because it's so deafening and like it rattles my mind actually. And it's, I think
somehow it's getting a little bit better. But sometimes, yeah, it will take one step forward
and like maybe two steps backwards. So but given the right leadership in place and the right mindset,
I want to believe that we will kind of take a step in the right direction, although with the
advent of the clean, distributed renewable energy sources and also the upcoming SMRs that promises
independent distribution and kind of microgrid kind of setting, maybe I believe we can get
the right solution in this regard. So in your book, you really talked about different countries and
how they actually suffer. And you kind of deliberated on this on India as well. You talked
about how they also went through the same challenge. So when you compare these countries, like,
do you have any kind of maybe improvement from when you wrote this book up till now? Like,
when you look back to the current situation in these countries, you know, I've heard of your
position on Nigeria's case, but I wouldn't know in other parts of the world where they suffer the
same thing. Like, what is the situation at this point if you may want to make some clarity? Yeah.
Sure. Well, it's interesting you asked that because I just have written a piece just recently
about what's going on in Lebanon. And it's a failed state. Lebanon is in economic and political and
energy crisis that is due, frankly, to just generational corruption. And it has gotten so bad
that, in fact, even the hospitals don't have enough electricity to keep their generators,
they don't have enough fuel, liquid fuel, diesel fuel to keep their own generators running. So
it is just a unfortunate but very clear example of how societal, the lack of societal integrity
undermines the electric grid and hurts the people. And in fact, it's going to end up with
a lot of people in Lebanon dead because of their medically fragile that can't get medical care.
We're even seeing some of this in Louisiana, where, you know, we're here in the US where we had a big
hurricane hit New Orleans and central Louisiana. And there are problems there with people dying
from carbon monoxide poisoning from their generators. I mean, this is a very serious problem,
but it indicates the essentiality of electricity to our lives and to everything that we do.
Okay, so you have highlighted a very important point of the essentiality of electricity to our
lives. That is no brain. Everybody knows it is very important. Like, if you bring electricity to
a remote village in Nigeria where they've not had it all the while, they always attest to
how beneficial it is to their lives. Like, they always say it is very important. Like, they
have always longed for it. So in writing this book, I know it is very important to have electricity.
What, what did you aim to achieve? Did you just want it to highlight our essentialities? And maybe,
I don't know, like, what was your aim in writing this book? What did you aim to achieve in the
long run? The simplest way to put it would be, I wanted to look at the world through the lens of
electricity. I wanted to use electricity as a way to see the world, right, and to define the world
in just through that very simple commodity, right? Who has it? Who doesn't? And why? And so
that was my goal. And I think we accomplished it pretty well. And we did a very similar thing with
the film that we produced, Juice, How Electricity Explains the World, talking to people around the
world about what electricity means to them and how, you know, and whether they have it, whether
they don't have it, and the results of in their own lives about what that, you know, the results of
that. So that was the aim. And I think it was successful. And what's been interesting then
since then is that we've had blackouts. I live in Texas, we've had blackouts here, we've had blackouts
in California. And it's largely due to the lack of integrity of the system, the political system,
the regulatory system failed the public. And they had, they paid a very heavy price, 700 people died
in Texas in February, because of this winter storm that happened. And many of them died simply
because of the failure of the electric grid. Okay, now I quite understand the problems that come
to its lack of electricity and maybe intermittent supply of it. So but going forward, you have enjoyed
the society where they have some elegant structures in place to take care of some
emergencies. And maybe when there's a shortfall, you kind of try to make up for it through some
alternative means. I wonder, like, given your developments in your, in your space, you must
have known how the progress went from lack of electricity to each abundance at this point.
Do you think there's a way we can model your level of progress to replicate the same or maybe
how to contextualize it? Because you tend to like focusing more on corruption. But I think
it's more than corruption. We need to actually look at speakers. I know it's not location specific,
it's it's everywhere kind of at the level difference at those places. So what we think,
I think there are some things that need to maybe be done in addition to just focusing on corruption
to getting people actually maybe maybe come up to light in your your vision of electricity
to the eyes of electricity. Well, let me, well, well, sure. So let me, since you want to talk
about nuclear in here, given the name of your podcast, I would say, well, let me, let me just
kind of think about those things for a talk. I was coming to that. Yeah, good. I think the
challenge for Africa, the challenge for any country that wants to adopt small modular reactors or even
larger reactor, what are the issues that they have to have? Well, I've talked about the societal
integrity, right? You have to have a system where people believe in the system, you have to have a
society where people believe that things are going to work and that they that it works for them,
otherwise they steal the electricity, etc. But the challenge I think, in particular, when it
comes to nuclear and the development of nuclear is that you need a strong not only do you need the
strong society underneath it, you need universities that have that can turn out the kinds of engineers
that are going to be required to make the systems work, you need infrastructure that can handle
the spent fuel, you need cranes, you need all these other pieces of hardware, the things that are
physical and things that are mental, and it all has to come together. And so my hope is that this
next generation of nuclear reactors that would be smaller, safer, cheaper, easier to build,
easier to locate, that those will be designed in a way that they can be deployed all over the world,
including Nigeria, including sub-Saharan Africa, all over the world where the local people can
manage them and have the infrastructure to make that happen. And that's what I'm very hopeful of.
But I think that having said that, I think in the near term for countries like Africa, for a lot of
the countries in Africa now that have found huge natural gas deposits, they're going to have to
use natural gas in the meantime. There's just not, you know, that it's a very abundant resource,
it's in particularly in Nigeria, and you need to be using more of that to produce electricity.
Cool. So do you think the human resource base load that is needed, knowledge levels that need to
be, because I don't think it requires any rocket science, because some countries that don't even
have that much human resource are able to actually get these things done. So do you think maybe the
human capacity needs to be developed in a special way to get this thing done?
Well, I think it's going to require a lot of things, including universities that are going to be
able to have the programs, the engineering programs that are going to turn out the people
that are going to be able to work in these facilities, right? That that not just in the
nuclear plants, but in the regular generation plants as well. So I'm not familiar with Nigeria's
higher education system, but I know you have universities and those universities need to
be able to produce the kind of skilled laborers, engineers, mechanics, technicians, mathematicians,
all these people that are going to need to operate the grid infrastructure to make it work. And then
you're going to have to have people then that work on the collection side to collect the bills,
because the thing that makes electricity flow is money everywhere, always, and you have to have
stable supplies of money. So what do you think is because the US is a leader in nuclear technology,
they have a number of leads, although they are concerned about their new builds at this time.
But if you want to look back at the history of US being an energy analyst for a very long time,
what do you think was like what helps to shape them into the way they became like to become the
leader? Like what was the thing that helped the US to to assume this position apart from being a
world leader? Well, sure. Well, it was clearly the government. It was clearly in fact, it was the US
military, right? That the civilian nuclear energy developed out of the US military. And that was
the basis of, you know, where that was from where it came. So that was, and you know, this was in
the wake of World War Two, the government had a lot of money. They had a lot of technicians, a lot
of people with technical know how. So then, you know, as the early 1950s, we saw the deployment
of the first commercial nuclear reactor in shipping port Pennsylvania. So that but that was a direct
outgrowth of the military programs. And so, you know, that is the difference now is that the
companies that are trying to develop new nuclear technologies, new nuclear reactors, they're all
private companies, they're not but they're going to this is the this is the this is the key that is the
the way you have to thread the needle as we say here in the US, you're going to need strong private
companies that have a lot of money to be able to develop these new reactors and you need strong
government oversight. You need both. Okay, so when you were going around gathering the information
to make this movie, sorry, I kind of like really focused on this your movie and the book, it's
really interest me a lot. So I really wanted to kind of get some details of how you really
got to give us this wonderful piece of contents, which we are enjoying today. So you went to
different countries, a lot of them. So did you kind of spot some areas where they need some
specific kind of energy source like maybe this area we need this country, we need some ratio of
nuclear in combination with other sources because these days, we're talking about the climate goal
and climate change and how to adapt and also mitigate the climate effect. So I wonder like
you are proposing some natural gas to some countries in Africa that also discover this
natural resource but in the face of climate goal where they want to decarbonize or goal
no for sale. I wonder if you like discover some niche areas or niche countries that will have
some specific kind of electricity source to supply to their grid like maybe this country
will be more suitable for coal like and then some other country more suitable for natural gas maybe
80 to 20 with nuclear. Did you have any kind of view or do you catch any kind of such kind of idea?
Yeah. Yes. In short, the answer is yes. Electric grids are also very local. So where what works in
say a state in the United States like Wyoming where there's a lot of coal, well they're going to
mine coal and they're going to use coal in the power plant. But when we went to Iceland, a country
that doesn't have coal, but they have tremendous hydro resources and a huge geothermal. So in
Iceland and in Africa, one of the countries that has tremendous geothermal potential is Djibouti.
So that's where you know that this everything is local. Well, that's definitely the case when it
comes to electricity as well. So in Iceland, 75% of their electricity comes from hydro. The other
25% comes from geothermal. So in a matter of several decades, they went from an economy that
was completely dependent on diesel fuel or fuel oil to produce electricity, which you're familiar
with in Nigeria, of course, they went from that completely to a zero carbon electricity from hydro
and geothermal. But you can't do that everywhere. You know, you can't do it out in the desert in
Arizona and here in the US or in the Sahara. There's no hydro there. You have enough water
to make it work. Nor do you have the geothermal resources. So these grids are very much about
the character of both the local geography and what the land and the resources look like and
the nature of the society in which you're building them. Grids are perfect, a near perfect reflection
of the societies they power. So interesting conversations have been making me think about
how nations became they are because of electricity. I kind of resumed back to when I was in South
Korea in the 1970s, they had their first nuclear power plant and it was a major impact to the
economic growth. And it's really confirms your your vision of the world through the eyes of
electricity is really a great accelerator of progress and economic development as well. So
I wonder, given these days, we are there are different things people are looking at and
different economic indicators of growth like some people that have natural resources, some of
the people. So it's really points to the fact that people really need some enablers to get them to
where they are going. So when they try to like make some traditional ways of getting alternating
energy, then these climates are kind of climate change issues are the front burner. So kind of
what is your advice to these new countries that are like looking at how to get a very strong
base load? What is your advice to them in the in the view of climate change? What is your best advice
to new countries that are trying to develop the electricity grid and make it very strong?
Well, you know, so let's be clear. Here's here's some, you know, this white guy in Texas, what
does he know, right? You know, it's the you know, the my advice is that the local communities,
you know, governments, state governments, national governments, they have to they,
they will and always act in their own self interest. So you mentioned climate change. Yes,
climate change is a concern. It is not the only concern. And so for a country like Nigeria,
where you have plentiful natural gas, well, well, damn it, use your natural gas and produce power
with it, right? I like that. Well, goddamn, right? Yeah. There's there's the you the economic
development is should take a priority. And it always does. I mean, I've written about this many
times when countries are in, you know, politicians when individuals are faced with that choice between
economic development, economic growth, or just getting dinner on the table. They're always going
to make their own self interest first. And the climate change issues come second. So we need to
get rich first. We I'm using the we is like all seven billion of us and all three billion of us on
the planet that don't have enough electricity. So we can. Yeah. Yeah. So we can burn all the coal
up on all the natural gas or the fossil to get to that risk status before we start thinking of
how to think of the climate. Is that fair? Well, I think that that's that's that's inevitable. I
mean, if you have if your child is sick and you need to take them to the hospital, okay, are you
going to worry about the climate change? Or are you going to get in the nearest car, the nearest
task taxi cab? It doesn't matter to you how much pollution the tax you have a thing you've got to
get your child to the doctor. So this is where this idea about though, we need to take. Okay, so
being a journalist for such a very long time and you've been working on energy you've written in
different media outlets like Forbes and New York Times, this brings a lot of challenges and also
commendations and maybe condemnations alongside. Have you been able to keep up with the on the
relating platform you have experienced in this journey of being the kind of person or the career
you are doing at this point? So your question is how do I mean, how do you navigate your space and
like carry on to be keep your motivation on, given the challenges and everything that comes with it.
Well, thank you. That's the question I the question that I you know, I grapple with that I
struggle with because I'm trying to figure out well, what's my purpose, right? But I think part of
what my purpose here in this life, what years I have left, I care about these issues, I care about
the human issues when it comes to energy and power. And this is one of the things that I think I'm
just called to do, right, that this is what I'm supposed to do. And so it's hard sometimes, it's
hard sometimes just stay at it. But you know, what else am I going to do? I mean, I have this is
something that I care about. And that I have seen the people's lives be deprived, because they didn't
have enough electricity. I've seen them live in poverty. I'm going to India, I've seen poverty
that I never imagined in my life. That's what keeps me going is that I, you know, I know how to make
a very simple spreadsheet. I know how to write a little bit. Well, here's what it is. This is how
I see it. And we need to be very clearheaded and rational about how we approach these things, because
the situation in Texas, the situation here in the United States is very different from the
situation in Nigeria and in Kenya and in Mozambique and in, you know, in Pakistan and elsewhere.
Those countries are going to do what they need to do. And if we can help, the US and other
richer countries can help by developing new technologies such as small reactors that can
help bring more people out of the dark and into the light, then that's what I'm all about. I'm
all for it. It's cool. Great. So Robert Bryce, I've had a very interesting and intriguing
conversation with you. You've made sure that great wealth of knowledge, camaraderie, organization,
and you've really given us quite a lot of information. And the content of your career is
really a great treasure to developing countries and those that want to develop electricity through
a nuclear and natural gas. So I would like to hear from you. Like if you have any strong words of
advice or caution or maybe that you would like to give to countries that are yes to actually
come to limelight in terms of electricity, I know you've been talking of the government.
And I think there should be some really actionable steps, apart from because the government is so
kind of so broad, maybe you have some way of focusing on some more priority areas,
you have anything like that as we conclude. Well, I guess my only concluding ideas would be that
electricity is the key commodity that if it is everywhere all over the world without exception,
electricity means prosperity. And without it, there is no prosperity. Prosperity drives electricity
use electricity drives prosperity, they go hand in hand. So to me, for governments, for local
governments, for individuals, go for it, get the electricity you need and make it will improve your
life. But you know, beyond that, I don't have much wisdom. And get it before I'm thinking of climate
change. Exactly. I mean, you know, for people who are living in dire poverty, climate change is not
their first concern. And it should not be true. That's very true. Very correct. Very correct.
So just the last word you've told us about your motivation, caring for your point in Indian
stuff like that. What's the rituals you adopt like because you're so perfect, it's like a
big, heavy producing machine. Like your content are like every day I keep getting new information
from different sources about your publications. Like what keeps you going? Like like in the last
word, maybe you have some some catalysts, I would say, as you said, Nigeria catalyzed you to write
the question of power. So like what catalyzes you on your daily routine?
That's interesting. That's great. So
coffee time. That's great. Great. Very wonderful. I mean, it's coffee and it's want to, right? You
know, that when I was a kid, there was a, you know, fishing, right? You know, there was a fishing
guide when I grew up in Oklahoma and there was a fishing guide and they, the people would say to him,
well, how do you become a good fisherman? And his name was Joe Creer. And he said,
you get up early, stay late and keep that line in the water. Wow. So great. Do you have any
mentors or stay late and I try and keep the line in the water? That's great. Wonderful. Any kind of
maybe mentors or people that you like looked up to that help to guide your focus as you continue
your journey? Well, like, you know, I think of my dad a lot, you know, my dad had a very strong,
my father did, had a very strong work ethic and he really instilled that in me. And then my mother
instilled this idea that, well, there's a right way to do things and do it the right way. And so
those are the things that come to mind. All right. So Robert Bryce, it's been a pleasure talking
with you and I hope I will have some other time to interact with you more on some more specific
areas that you've got to know about you and it's so mind blowing to know and also interact with
such a great person like you. And I'm very much hoping that our listeners will be very much intrigued
and enriched by today's meeting and I'm looking forward to speaking with you again. Thank you so
much. Well, that's very kind. Thank you. Well, send me send me a note when you publish the podcast.
I'll put it on my newsletter. All right. I'll do that. Thank you. Appreciate the time. Okay.
Okay. Thank you. Bye. Bye.