1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,600 Prosperity drives electricity use and electricity drives prosperity. 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:15,280 Welcome to today's episode of AFRING Podcast. On today's episode, we have a very strong evangelist 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:23,440 for clean, baseload electricity across the globe, Robert Bryce. On today's episode, he's going to 4 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:31,200 give us interesting perspective on his book that he has written and also the movie, Jules, 5 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:38,320 How Electricity Explains the World. He's going to be telling us a lot about the focus on electricity 6 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:44,320 and how it affects developing countries and also the work he has been doing. So, I would like to 7 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:51,440 ask Robert, please to introduce yourself. Sure, happy to. Well, first, thank you for having me on 8 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:57,200 the podcast. My pleasure. A few technical challenges we worked through, but we're here now. So, 9 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:05,520 so who am I? My name is Robert Bryce. I'm a dad. Three, my wife, Lauren, and I have three great kids. 10 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:10,000 They're all grown and out of the house, but all doing well. Mary, Michael, and Jacob. 11 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,680 Married to Lauren. We've been married for 35 years and I've been a very lucky man. 12 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:23,120 On my professional business, I'm an author, journalist, a podcaster of made a film, and I write 13 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,240 about energy, power, innovation, and politics. And so that keeps me busy. Published six books, 14 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,880 several more than a thousand articles, and there's a lot going on both in the US and around the world 15 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,160 in energy and power. So how's that? Is that good enough? 16 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:44,000 Don't so much justice to that question. And I was going to delve more into it because I was 17 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:51,680 reading about your book on the one you wrote about power and how it affects the world and 18 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:58,960 energy kind of. So you talked a lot about, I saw the introduction and your purpose of actually 19 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:04,960 writing that book was the experience you had about Nigeria. Can you tell us a bit about how you kind 20 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:11,840 of transcended in that kind of experience and like developing your plot for that book and the 21 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:20,560 movie as well? Sure, sure, of course. So now I'm in my, I just turned 61. So I'm an old guy, right? 22 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,360 But I remember many years ago, and it was decades ago that there's a very popular news 23 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:31,360 television program in the United States called 60 Minutes. And they, this is decades ago, I remember 24 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:37,520 that one of their reporters was in Lagos. And he was reporting on the electricity situation 25 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:43,680 Lagos was talking about. And it was kind of, you know, kind of this, you know, this old head shaking 26 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,520 kind of white guy goes to Africa like, what are these crazy people doing? Right? They didn't have 27 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,800 an, you know, his point was that they didn't have enough electricity in Lagos and that there was a 28 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:57,680 big bank of batteries in one of the warehouses that used for backup power. And then in 2016, I read an 29 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,080 article in the New York Times about continuing power shortages in Nigeria. And I thought, well, 30 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,960 why is this? Why is this country that has so much, so many people, so much intellectual capacity, 31 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:12,560 so much great oil and bass wealth? Why can't it manage its own electric grid? What is the problem? 32 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:19,200 And so that led me to then I got a contract for, well, this book, a question of power, 33 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:25,040 I go from my, my publisher, and started working on the book. And as I started working on the book, 34 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,400 I decided, well, I'll make a, I'll make a documentary to how hard can it be? And well, 35 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:37,200 it was pretty hard, but I got it done. But it was, Nigeria really was the, the, the, the, the, 36 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:43,040 the thing that the catalyst that made me think, well, why is this? What, why are some countries 37 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:48,480 able to electrify and others not? And Nigeria still has its challenges and in getting enough 38 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:54,080 electricity. And that was one of the reasons why I did these projects. Thank you so much. 39 00:03:54,080 --> 00:04:03,120 What do you think you will do if you take another cross-review about the situation in Nigeria right 40 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:09,120 now and taking a look at the book you have written? Do you think you will still emphasize what you 41 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:15,360 emphasized previously or you think a solution is closed or maybe giving some new ways of solving 42 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:21,680 the energy challenge? Do you think anything will change maybe from what you observed or wrote about 43 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:28,640 in the, in the book? Because I'm really very much concerned about like it's, because the last time 44 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:35,920 we tried to talk, we actually had some electricity challenge due to the grid incapability to handle 45 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:43,360 some natural, do I say, events, because when it rains sometimes they have to off the light from 46 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:53,120 the grid because of some, because it's not able to handle that kind of natural event. So we still 47 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:58,960 have some long way to go if I would say from my analysis, but at some point I think we have gotten 48 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:05,360 it right somehow because some places tend to get some light and there are some independent solutions. 49 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,240 Sorry for taking so long to actually explain the point, but I know you are quite understanding 50 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:16,480 what I'm driving at. Yes, of course. Well, I think this was something that is not unique to Nigeria 51 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:21,200 and one of the things in going, in going around the world, we went to Lebanon, we went to India, 52 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:28,480 Puerto Rico, Colorado, New York, Iceland, what are the three in pairs for, for a successful 53 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:34,560 electric electricity system? Yeah, it's integrity, capital and fuel. And unfortunately the problem 54 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,880 in Nigeria and this is something I'm not saying something that I don't think will offend you, 55 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:44,560 the problem in Nigeria and other countries where the electric grid is weak is the society doesn't 56 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:50,080 have integrity. There are, that leaks too much, right? You have corruption and this is not again, 57 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,640 not unique to Nigeria, but wherever there is a lot of theft, wherever there's a lot of corruption, 58 00:05:54,640 --> 00:06:00,000 as I put it in the book, theft is the enemy of light. And when people get into a political power 59 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,280 situation where they can take some money, oh, it's just a little bit and then somebody else takes a 60 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:06,960 little bit, everybody takes a little bit, well then there's no money left. And this is the problem 61 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:13,520 that you see in Nigeria and India, other places where the Lebanon, Iraq, where electric grids are 62 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,360 problematic, where they're, you know, the lights don't stay on all the time, where people have a 63 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:23,040 lot of small generators. This is what they have to do to keep electricity going because they have 64 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:29,360 to have their own electric generator in order to make sure that they have power. So this is a 65 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:34,400 problem that still, and this has not changed at all in my view. And it's a problem now in the 66 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,720 United States, the integrity of the political system is undermining the electric grid. 67 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:45,360 Okay, that's interesting. You made a note about the electricity generator and that's a very common 68 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:51,520 trend here. And I get really pissed off. I get really, really pissed off when the sound of the 69 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:58,960 generator, because it's so deafening and like it rattles my mind actually. And it's, I think 70 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:05,680 somehow it's getting a little bit better. But sometimes, yeah, it will take one step forward 71 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:12,640 and like maybe two steps backwards. So but given the right leadership in place and the right mindset, 72 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:18,880 I want to believe that we will kind of take a step in the right direction, although with the 73 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:27,200 advent of the clean, distributed renewable energy sources and also the upcoming SMRs that promises 74 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:35,680 independent distribution and kind of microgrid kind of setting, maybe I believe we can get 75 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:43,760 the right solution in this regard. So in your book, you really talked about different countries and 76 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:51,920 how they actually suffer. And you kind of deliberated on this on India as well. You talked 77 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:57,520 about how they also went through the same challenge. So when you compare these countries, like, 78 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:04,160 do you have any kind of maybe improvement from when you wrote this book up till now? Like, 79 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:09,840 when you look back to the current situation in these countries, you know, I've heard of your 80 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:16,080 position on Nigeria's case, but I wouldn't know in other parts of the world where they suffer the 81 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:22,640 same thing. Like, what is the situation at this point if you may want to make some clarity? Yeah. 82 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:27,040 Sure. Well, it's interesting you asked that because I just have written a piece just recently 83 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:34,080 about what's going on in Lebanon. And it's a failed state. Lebanon is in economic and political and 84 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:41,200 energy crisis that is due, frankly, to just generational corruption. And it has gotten so bad 85 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:46,240 that, in fact, even the hospitals don't have enough electricity to keep their generators, 86 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,360 they don't have enough fuel, liquid fuel, diesel fuel to keep their own generators running. So 87 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:59,920 it is just a unfortunate but very clear example of how societal, the lack of societal integrity 88 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:04,240 undermines the electric grid and hurts the people. And in fact, it's going to end up with 89 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:10,000 a lot of people in Lebanon dead because of their medically fragile that can't get medical care. 90 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,400 We're even seeing some of this in Louisiana, where, you know, we're here in the US where we had a big 91 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,920 hurricane hit New Orleans and central Louisiana. And there are problems there with people dying 92 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,240 from carbon monoxide poisoning from their generators. I mean, this is a very serious problem, 93 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:31,440 but it indicates the essentiality of electricity to our lives and to everything that we do. 94 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:38,480 Okay, so you have highlighted a very important point of the essentiality of electricity to our 95 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:44,320 lives. That is no brain. Everybody knows it is very important. Like, if you bring electricity to 96 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:49,760 a remote village in Nigeria where they've not had it all the while, they always attest to 97 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:56,720 how beneficial it is to their lives. Like, they always say it is very important. Like, they 98 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:05,600 have always longed for it. So in writing this book, I know it is very important to have electricity. 99 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:12,560 What, what did you aim to achieve? Did you just want it to highlight our essentialities? And maybe, 100 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:19,680 I don't know, like, what was your aim in writing this book? What did you aim to achieve in the 101 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:25,760 long run? The simplest way to put it would be, I wanted to look at the world through the lens of 102 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,880 electricity. I wanted to use electricity as a way to see the world, right, and to define the world 103 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:37,520 in just through that very simple commodity, right? Who has it? Who doesn't? And why? And so 104 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,560 that was my goal. And I think we accomplished it pretty well. And we did a very similar thing with 105 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,760 the film that we produced, Juice, How Electricity Explains the World, talking to people around the 106 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,120 world about what electricity means to them and how, you know, and whether they have it, whether 107 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:56,400 they don't have it, and the results of in their own lives about what that, you know, the results of 108 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,840 that. So that was the aim. And I think it was successful. And what's been interesting then 109 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,800 since then is that we've had blackouts. I live in Texas, we've had blackouts here, we've had blackouts 110 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:13,280 in California. And it's largely due to the lack of integrity of the system, the political system, 111 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:19,760 the regulatory system failed the public. And they had, they paid a very heavy price, 700 people died 112 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:25,200 in Texas in February, because of this winter storm that happened. And many of them died simply 113 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:32,480 because of the failure of the electric grid. Okay, now I quite understand the problems that come 114 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:40,960 to its lack of electricity and maybe intermittent supply of it. So but going forward, you have enjoyed 115 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,680 the society where they have some elegant structures in place to take care of some 116 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:51,840 emergencies. And maybe when there's a shortfall, you kind of try to make up for it through some 117 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:59,600 alternative means. I wonder, like, given your developments in your, in your space, you must 118 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:07,760 have known how the progress went from lack of electricity to each abundance at this point. 119 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:13,280 Do you think there's a way we can model your level of progress to replicate the same or maybe 120 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:20,720 how to contextualize it? Because you tend to like focusing more on corruption. But I think 121 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:26,240 it's more than corruption. We need to actually look at speakers. I know it's not location specific, 122 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:32,080 it's it's everywhere kind of at the level difference at those places. So what we think, 123 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:38,160 I think there are some things that need to maybe be done in addition to just focusing on corruption 124 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:46,880 to getting people actually maybe maybe come up to light in your your vision of electricity 125 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,680 to the eyes of electricity. Well, let me, well, well, sure. So let me, since you want to talk 126 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:56,240 about nuclear in here, given the name of your podcast, I would say, well, let me, let me just 127 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:02,800 kind of think about those things for a talk. I was coming to that. Yeah, good. I think the 128 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:08,320 challenge for Africa, the challenge for any country that wants to adopt small modular reactors or even 129 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,480 larger reactor, what are the issues that they have to have? Well, I've talked about the societal 130 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,840 integrity, right? You have to have a system where people believe in the system, you have to have a 131 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,320 society where people believe that things are going to work and that they that it works for them, 132 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,560 otherwise they steal the electricity, etc. But the challenge I think, in particular, when it 133 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:31,520 comes to nuclear and the development of nuclear is that you need a strong not only do you need the 134 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:37,600 strong society underneath it, you need universities that have that can turn out the kinds of engineers 135 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:43,040 that are going to be required to make the systems work, you need infrastructure that can handle 136 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:48,400 the spent fuel, you need cranes, you need all these other pieces of hardware, the things that are 137 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:54,000 physical and things that are mental, and it all has to come together. And so my hope is that this 138 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:59,920 next generation of nuclear reactors that would be smaller, safer, cheaper, easier to build, 139 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:06,880 easier to locate, that those will be designed in a way that they can be deployed all over the world, 140 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,840 including Nigeria, including sub-Saharan Africa, all over the world where the local people can 141 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,400 manage them and have the infrastructure to make that happen. And that's what I'm very hopeful of. 142 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,760 But I think that having said that, I think in the near term for countries like Africa, for a lot of 143 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:26,560 the countries in Africa now that have found huge natural gas deposits, they're going to have to 144 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,960 use natural gas in the meantime. There's just not, you know, that it's a very abundant resource, 145 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:36,080 it's in particularly in Nigeria, and you need to be using more of that to produce electricity. 146 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:45,840 Cool. So do you think the human resource base load that is needed, knowledge levels that need to 147 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,800 be, because I don't think it requires any rocket science, because some countries that don't even 148 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:58,400 have that much human resource are able to actually get these things done. So do you think maybe the 149 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:03,520 human capacity needs to be developed in a special way to get this thing done? 150 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:09,120 Well, I think it's going to require a lot of things, including universities that are going to be 151 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,320 able to have the programs, the engineering programs that are going to turn out the people 152 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,560 that are going to be able to work in these facilities, right? That that not just in the 153 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:24,400 nuclear plants, but in the regular generation plants as well. So I'm not familiar with Nigeria's 154 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,640 higher education system, but I know you have universities and those universities need to 155 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:37,520 be able to produce the kind of skilled laborers, engineers, mechanics, technicians, mathematicians, 156 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:44,880 all these people that are going to need to operate the grid infrastructure to make it work. And then 157 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,960 you're going to have to have people then that work on the collection side to collect the bills, 158 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:54,240 because the thing that makes electricity flow is money everywhere, always, and you have to have 159 00:15:54,240 --> 00:16:01,840 stable supplies of money. So what do you think is because the US is a leader in nuclear technology, 160 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:08,080 they have a number of leads, although they are concerned about their new builds at this time. 161 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:15,360 But if you want to look back at the history of US being an energy analyst for a very long time, 162 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:21,600 what do you think was like what helps to shape them into the way they became like to become the 163 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:28,320 leader? Like what was the thing that helped the US to to assume this position apart from being a 164 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:34,240 world leader? Well, sure. Well, it was clearly the government. It was clearly in fact, it was the US 165 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:40,080 military, right? That the civilian nuclear energy developed out of the US military. And that was 166 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:45,520 the basis of, you know, where that was from where it came. So that was, and you know, this was in 167 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,360 the wake of World War Two, the government had a lot of money. They had a lot of technicians, a lot 168 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:55,920 of people with technical know how. So then, you know, as the early 1950s, we saw the deployment 169 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:02,160 of the first commercial nuclear reactor in shipping port Pennsylvania. So that but that was a direct 170 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:08,720 outgrowth of the military programs. And so, you know, that is the difference now is that the 171 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,520 companies that are trying to develop new nuclear technologies, new nuclear reactors, they're all 172 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:19,760 private companies, they're not but they're going to this is the this is the this is the key that is the 173 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,000 the way you have to thread the needle as we say here in the US, you're going to need strong private 174 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,880 companies that have a lot of money to be able to develop these new reactors and you need strong 175 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:34,960 government oversight. You need both. Okay, so when you were going around gathering the information 176 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:41,280 to make this movie, sorry, I kind of like really focused on this your movie and the book, it's 177 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:48,800 really interest me a lot. So I really wanted to kind of get some details of how you really 178 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:57,200 got to give us this wonderful piece of contents, which we are enjoying today. So you went to 179 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,960 different countries, a lot of them. So did you kind of spot some areas where they need some 180 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:11,040 specific kind of energy source like maybe this area we need this country, we need some ratio of 181 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:16,880 nuclear in combination with other sources because these days, we're talking about the climate goal 182 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:23,120 and climate change and how to adapt and also mitigate the climate effect. So I wonder like 183 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:30,880 you are proposing some natural gas to some countries in Africa that also discover this 184 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:36,720 natural resource but in the face of climate goal where they want to decarbonize or goal 185 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:42,960 no for sale. I wonder if you like discover some niche areas or niche countries that will have 186 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:49,200 some specific kind of electricity source to supply to their grid like maybe this country 187 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:55,280 will be more suitable for coal like and then some other country more suitable for natural gas maybe 188 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:04,480 80 to 20 with nuclear. Did you have any kind of view or do you catch any kind of such kind of idea? 189 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:13,120 Yeah. Yes. In short, the answer is yes. Electric grids are also very local. So where what works in 190 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:18,640 say a state in the United States like Wyoming where there's a lot of coal, well they're going to 191 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:23,600 mine coal and they're going to use coal in the power plant. But when we went to Iceland, a country 192 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:30,880 that doesn't have coal, but they have tremendous hydro resources and a huge geothermal. So in 193 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:36,160 Iceland and in Africa, one of the countries that has tremendous geothermal potential is Djibouti. 194 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,280 So that's where you know that this everything is local. Well, that's definitely the case when it 195 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:49,280 comes to electricity as well. So in Iceland, 75% of their electricity comes from hydro. The other 196 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:55,040 25% comes from geothermal. So in a matter of several decades, they went from an economy that 197 00:19:55,040 --> 00:20:00,160 was completely dependent on diesel fuel or fuel oil to produce electricity, which you're familiar 198 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:07,280 with in Nigeria, of course, they went from that completely to a zero carbon electricity from hydro 199 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:13,600 and geothermal. But you can't do that everywhere. You know, you can't do it out in the desert in 200 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:20,320 Arizona and here in the US or in the Sahara. There's no hydro there. You have enough water 201 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:27,040 to make it work. Nor do you have the geothermal resources. So these grids are very much about 202 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:34,560 the character of both the local geography and what the land and the resources look like and 203 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,600 the nature of the society in which you're building them. Grids are perfect, a near perfect reflection 204 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:46,160 of the societies they power. So interesting conversations have been making me think about 205 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:54,720 how nations became they are because of electricity. I kind of resumed back to when I was in South 206 00:20:54,720 --> 00:21:01,440 Korea in the 1970s, they had their first nuclear power plant and it was a major impact to the 207 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:08,960 economic growth. And it's really confirms your your vision of the world through the eyes of 208 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:17,200 electricity is really a great accelerator of progress and economic development as well. So 209 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:24,160 I wonder, given these days, we are there are different things people are looking at and 210 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:29,840 different economic indicators of growth like some people that have natural resources, some of 211 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:35,680 the people. So it's really points to the fact that people really need some enablers to get them to 212 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:42,240 where they are going. So when they try to like make some traditional ways of getting alternating 213 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:50,480 energy, then these climates are kind of climate change issues are the front burner. So kind of 214 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,600 what is your advice to these new countries that are like looking at how to get a very strong 215 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:03,200 base load? What is your advice to them in the in the view of climate change? What is your best advice 216 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,400 to new countries that are trying to develop the electricity grid and make it very strong? 217 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:15,520 Well, you know, so let's be clear. Here's here's some, you know, this white guy in Texas, what 218 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:21,360 does he know, right? You know, it's the you know, the my advice is that the local communities, 219 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:24,880 you know, governments, state governments, national governments, they have to they, 220 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:30,800 they will and always act in their own self interest. So you mentioned climate change. Yes, 221 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:36,880 climate change is a concern. It is not the only concern. And so for a country like Nigeria, 222 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:42,880 where you have plentiful natural gas, well, well, damn it, use your natural gas and produce power 223 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:52,720 with it, right? I like that. Well, goddamn, right? Yeah. There's there's the you the economic 224 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:58,720 development is should take a priority. And it always does. I mean, I've written about this many 225 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:04,640 times when countries are in, you know, politicians when individuals are faced with that choice between 226 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,000 economic development, economic growth, or just getting dinner on the table. They're always going 227 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:17,600 to make their own self interest first. And the climate change issues come second. So we need to 228 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:23,440 get rich first. We I'm using the we is like all seven billion of us and all three billion of us on 229 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:36,080 the planet that don't have enough electricity. So we can. Yeah. Yeah. So we can burn all the coal 230 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:41,280 up on all the natural gas or the fossil to get to that risk status before we start thinking of 231 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:48,640 how to think of the climate. Is that fair? Well, I think that that's that's that's inevitable. I 232 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:55,040 mean, if you have if your child is sick and you need to take them to the hospital, okay, are you 233 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,800 going to worry about the climate change? Or are you going to get in the nearest car, the nearest 234 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:03,840 task taxi cab? It doesn't matter to you how much pollution the tax you have a thing you've got to 235 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:10,880 get your child to the doctor. So this is where this idea about though, we need to take. Okay, so 236 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:17,200 being a journalist for such a very long time and you've been working on energy you've written in 237 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:24,080 different media outlets like Forbes and New York Times, this brings a lot of challenges and also 238 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:32,640 commendations and maybe condemnations alongside. Have you been able to keep up with the on the 239 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:39,120 relating platform you have experienced in this journey of being the kind of person or the career 240 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:45,840 you are doing at this point? So your question is how do I mean, how do you navigate your space and 241 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:53,760 like carry on to be keep your motivation on, given the challenges and everything that comes with it. 242 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,600 Well, thank you. That's the question I the question that I you know, I grapple with that I 243 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,000 struggle with because I'm trying to figure out well, what's my purpose, right? But I think part of 244 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:11,040 what my purpose here in this life, what years I have left, I care about these issues, I care about 245 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,360 the human issues when it comes to energy and power. And this is one of the things that I think I'm 246 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:20,560 just called to do, right, that this is what I'm supposed to do. And so it's hard sometimes, it's 247 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:27,120 hard sometimes just stay at it. But you know, what else am I going to do? I mean, I have this is 248 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:34,240 something that I care about. And that I have seen the people's lives be deprived, because they didn't 249 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,800 have enough electricity. I've seen them live in poverty. I'm going to India, I've seen poverty 250 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,960 that I never imagined in my life. That's what keeps me going is that I, you know, I know how to make 251 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:50,240 a very simple spreadsheet. I know how to write a little bit. Well, here's what it is. This is how 252 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,840 I see it. And we need to be very clearheaded and rational about how we approach these things, because 253 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,920 the situation in Texas, the situation here in the United States is very different from the 254 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:07,440 situation in Nigeria and in Kenya and in Mozambique and in, you know, in Pakistan and elsewhere. 255 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,160 Those countries are going to do what they need to do. And if we can help, the US and other 256 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,880 richer countries can help by developing new technologies such as small reactors that can 257 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,480 help bring more people out of the dark and into the light, then that's what I'm all about. I'm 258 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:27,120 all for it. It's cool. Great. So Robert Bryce, I've had a very interesting and intriguing 259 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:34,080 conversation with you. You've made sure that great wealth of knowledge, camaraderie, organization, 260 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:41,360 and you've really given us quite a lot of information. And the content of your career is 261 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:47,120 really a great treasure to developing countries and those that want to develop electricity through 262 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:55,680 a nuclear and natural gas. So I would like to hear from you. Like if you have any strong words of 263 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:02,800 advice or caution or maybe that you would like to give to countries that are yes to actually 264 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,440 come to limelight in terms of electricity, I know you've been talking of the government. 265 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,240 And I think there should be some really actionable steps, apart from because the government is so 266 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:19,920 kind of so broad, maybe you have some way of focusing on some more priority areas, 267 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:26,240 you have anything like that as we conclude. Well, I guess my only concluding ideas would be that 268 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:33,440 electricity is the key commodity that if it is everywhere all over the world without exception, 269 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:40,800 electricity means prosperity. And without it, there is no prosperity. Prosperity drives electricity 270 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:48,400 use electricity drives prosperity, they go hand in hand. So to me, for governments, for local 271 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:56,960 governments, for individuals, go for it, get the electricity you need and make it will improve your 272 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:04,000 life. But you know, beyond that, I don't have much wisdom. And get it before I'm thinking of climate 273 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:12,320 change. Exactly. I mean, you know, for people who are living in dire poverty, climate change is not 274 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:19,680 their first concern. And it should not be true. That's very true. Very correct. Very correct. 275 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:26,080 So just the last word you've told us about your motivation, caring for your point in Indian 276 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:32,080 stuff like that. What's the rituals you adopt like because you're so perfect, it's like a 277 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,600 big, heavy producing machine. Like your content are like every day I keep getting new information 278 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:43,520 from different sources about your publications. Like what keeps you going? Like like in the last 279 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,960 word, maybe you have some some catalysts, I would say, as you said, Nigeria catalyzed you to write 280 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,440 the question of power. So like what catalyzes you on your daily routine? 281 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,440 That's interesting. That's great. So 282 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:07,840 coffee time. That's great. Great. Very wonderful. I mean, it's coffee and it's want to, right? You 283 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:13,360 know, that when I was a kid, there was a, you know, fishing, right? You know, there was a fishing 284 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,000 guide when I grew up in Oklahoma and there was a fishing guide and they, the people would say to him, 285 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,680 well, how do you become a good fisherman? And his name was Joe Creer. And he said, 286 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:28,800 you get up early, stay late and keep that line in the water. Wow. So great. Do you have any 287 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:35,040 mentors or stay late and I try and keep the line in the water? That's great. Wonderful. Any kind of 288 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,720 maybe mentors or people that you like looked up to that help to guide your focus as you continue 289 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:47,760 your journey? Well, like, you know, I think of my dad a lot, you know, my dad had a very strong, 290 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,320 my father did, had a very strong work ethic and he really instilled that in me. And then my mother 291 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,760 instilled this idea that, well, there's a right way to do things and do it the right way. And so 292 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,040 those are the things that come to mind. All right. So Robert Bryce, it's been a pleasure talking 293 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:08,160 with you and I hope I will have some other time to interact with you more on some more specific 294 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,680 areas that you've got to know about you and it's so mind blowing to know and also interact with 295 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:21,040 such a great person like you. And I'm very much hoping that our listeners will be very much intrigued 296 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:26,720 and enriched by today's meeting and I'm looking forward to speaking with you again. Thank you so 297 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,640 much. Well, that's very kind. Thank you. Well, send me send me a note when you publish the podcast. 298 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,280 I'll put it on my newsletter. All right. I'll do that. Thank you. Appreciate the time. Okay. 299 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:44,400 Okay. Thank you. Bye. Bye.