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Mr Allen please.
I would also like to review the waste management plans and in particular the waste management policy.
And at that site that was in 2011 and 2012 and I have become good friends with the previous Mr Simon Malham.
Yes, and I know a little bit of the history of Nigeria.
The Nigerian Atomic Energy Commission was established by the Act of 1976.
And then also as part of that meeting of the benchmarking exercise, I also engaged with the Nigerian Nuclear Regulatory Authority
that was established by the Nuclear Safety and Radiation Protection Act of 1979.
And I also know a little bit about all the facilities that you have a 30 kW reactor as area.
And then, and I also visited the waste treatment facility in Seder.
There's about 60 kW from Aguza.
So people will call your country Nigeria.
I call it out.
Wow, like you've explained the very wide spectrum of your knowledge,
the location or maybe your knowledge domain about Nigeria.
And it's like you capture a lot of things like the waste management facility in Seder.
I actually worked on that in one of my research several years ago.
And I'm very excited when you talked about it.
The research reactor in Zarya has been there for a couple of years.
Some downgrading has been done to make it a low-enriched uranium source.
So I'm very happy that you are very much in touch with recent happenings in the nuclear sphere in Nigeria.
That's really interesting to know.
I'm looking forward to it.
I promise, Prof Malam, that you must arrange citizenship for me at Nigeria.
So I can just come to Nigeria and assist.
Wow, that would be awesome.
I'm really glad that you are giving us this real-time information.
And it's like you are home with Nigeria.
So thank you for that.
Yes, you have a question.
My name is Alan Carlson.
I'm active from South Africa.
And I have more than 25 years of experience in the nuclear industry,
particularly waste management and disposal of all radioactive waste classes.
During the course of my career, I held several executive positions over the past 15 years,
of which I was the senior manager for radioactive waste management at NEXA,
the African Nuclear Energy Corporation.
Currently, I am the chief operating officer for the national radioactive waste disposal industry.
I have a deal role for the past three and a half years.
I am also acting a chief executive officer.
So as chief executive officer, I provide strategic, executive and transformational leadership
in the reaction to my waste management team in order to ensure that we discharge our mandate as per our act.
And the overriding mandate is the long-term management and disposal of all classes of radioactive waste on a national basis.
In addition to that, I am also a member of the International Radioactive Waste Technical Committee,
and that functions under the auspices of the International Atomic Energy, the IAA.
And that committee is actually a group of about 20 senior experts, global experts,
that is handpicked by the director general of the IAA.
And the goal of that, we call it WATEC, International Radioactive Waste Technical Committee.
So the role of WATEC is to provide advice to the IAA and also to support the IAA with regard to the implementation of programmes
reflecting on global excellence and expertise in the area of radioactive waste management,
decommissioning, particularly emphasis on strategies, implementation, technologies and methodologies.
So we provide guidance in terms of best practices.
Currently there are about 183 member states of the IAA.
So all the IAA member states came from collective wisdom in terms of best practices in terms of disposal and management of radioactive waste.
In addition to that, I am also serving on various other IAA committees,
like the International Disposal Network, which is responsible for looking at best practices in terms of the disposal of low-level waste.
And then also part of a committee of eight members that looks into the deep logical disposal of high-level waste.
So I am actively involved in the global community,
but my passion is to ensure that we share all best practices with members states of the IAA.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for this great exposure.
In fact, I cannot, I don't think the one whole chapter of your book.
In fact, you have immense capacity and network of people and places that I cannot begin to list.
It's so immense.
But I would like to actually bring us to some very basic things about nuclear waste.
When everybody talks about waste, people these days begin to talk about maybe waste from either human dumping or from human activities.
Waste is like a general issue.
People talk about from waste to wealth and stuff like that.
But when they talk about nuclear waste, some people, it sounds like, oh, that's it's like something that pushes them away from the nuclear option for some people.
So some people need to know what really nuclear waste is.
Can you please tell us what is a nuclear waste in the first place?
First and foremost, all industries are generating waste.
In the case of industries that exploit radioactive material via nuclear science and technology,
the consequence is that you generate radioactive waste.
Radioactive waste is actually material for there is no use for and that contains radio nuclides.
And there are various nuclear sites and your radioactive waste has also a decay period.
For example, if I take a cobalt, a titty, it has a half life of about 30 years.
So normally the thumb of road is that after 10 half lives, so after 300 years,
the radioactivity of the cobalt source is zero.
But it still remains toxic from a chemical perspective.
All waste at the end of the day becomes chemical waste.
And I don't know why people have a fear, but it is justifiably so.
Because people have memories associated with Fukushima.
They have memories associated with Chernobyl.
And that is why where the fear factor is coming in.
And I think we as the nuclear fraternity and in particular the youth,
they should embark on a communication and stakeholder campaign to actually de-identify all the most associated to a further radioactive waste.
And I hope we get that done in this podcast.
And we have all the technologies to deal with our waste decisively.
Very, very great explanation from you.
I quite understand how you were trying to say that even though the decay, the half life of the cobalt 30 or I was thinking it's cobalt 60,
even beyond that 30 years, it still has some level of waste, do I say composition, it's still classified as a waste.
Or it becomes a chemical waste as you explain.
But from my basic radioactivity, when I was studying, the radioactivity graph is an exponential graph.
So it never touches, it never gets to zero.
It just gets less and less and less and less.
So it's really corroborate with what you said.
I wonder, like since you are an expert in waste management,
I wonder if you have come to the point of establishing some major pillars of waste management.
So that some people who might want to take it as a business, maybe some companies that might spring off in some parts of Africa or beyond.
And those are listening to this, they might want to hear some expert opinion from people who are really having hands on experience.
Like, do you have any classification or anything that you might want to term the pillars of waste management?
Because I think this waste must be managed properly in a very professional way.
Yes, yes. That's the pillar of waste management.
I just want to start here.
From where the whole international community is sitting is that the overarching objective of radioactive waste management
is to deal with radioactive waste management, radioactive waste in a manner that protects human health
and environment now and in the future without imposing on new burdens on future generations.
It's very simplistic of the overarching objective but the key focus is on the protection of human health.
The protection of the environment in the generational equity.
Right. The protection that benefits from any nuclear activity cannot transfer the burden to the next generation
so that you can ensure equity in terms of it.
And also there are key principles that we need to embrace in terms of waste management.
And I just want to say a few of them.
One of them we call it the pollutable principle.
So any government need to establish the infrastructure to deal with the waste decisively
and by making financial provisions for the long term management of the waste.
Normally the global practice is that the government normally establish a government-owned company
to deal with the waste management in the nuclear industry.
The first principle is that you should have a good regulatory and governance framework
and the responsibilities of each and every entity or role player must be spelled out.
For example, you need to have an independent nuclear regulator.
You need to create a waste management fund to ensure that waste generators
place money into that fund for the long term management of that waste.
And secondly, you need to spell out what are the roles of the waste generator.
And lastly, you need to spell out what is the role of government because government normally says the letters.
They draft acts and also they draft the policy and strategy.
So from that perspective, there is no right or wrong thing
but that is basically a very good and comprehensive governance framework to manage all waste.
And that was part of my recommendation in 2012 to the Nigeria Atomic Energy Corporation
in terms of setting up such structures in terms of waste management.
But you cannot impose it on a member state because it depends on the majority of your nuclear program.
The Americans have a big program.
We in South Africa are classified as a country with a small nuclear program.
So there is no right or wrong in terms of the structures as long as you embrace
the governance principles and yours.
In fact, if I allow you, I think if they give you a time,
your experience is so adept and very inexhaustible, I would say.
I really guess the point you try to make about the pillars of waste management
about the consent of humans, the environment and also the future generation.
And I think we can say that it's a tripod that is balanced on sustainability and the future generation.
And I also quite understand the principles you are trying to talk about
and how the best practices waste producers and how they should.
And the government must also have well established and the fund as well.
And I really appreciate that South Africa is really taking leadership in this regard.
And the little one that you have taken, the organization you are the chief,
you are really taking it to have a very great and grand leadership in the contents for waste management.
And I sincerely appreciate you for that.
So this takes me kind of to the next aspect because most African countries
recognize the potential for nuclear moving towards building the effects.
And I want to recall before the last president of South Africa left the seat,
he was making a very strong push for a new view from the Russian technology
and the current one going on in El-Dabang, Egypt is also an attestation to the desire of Africa, the continents to go nuclear.
Being a leader in nuclear technology, waste research and development,
what do you think should not be left out in terms of policy?
And I know you have really stated some things and some conventions.
You've been part of great committees and stuff like that.
Some new combat countries may not really know what to want to hear from the horse's mouth
and those listening to the spotters would like to know
but the variables that must be considered in terms of policy are bringing up the use,
the development, regulation and human resource and stuff that people coming up to this view
should kind of put into contradiction.
What do you think sir?
As I normally say, the issue with radioactive waste management,
sometimes the technologies are available.
However, the bigger challenge for any radioactive or for any nuclear activity
is societal and political acceptance.
And that's why I'm a big fan of the principle
you need to be transparent, open with all your stakeholders.
You need to empower your stakeholders with the necessary skills
so that they can actually participate in the decision making process as equal partners.
In the old days, I call it that you decide, announce, defend
and that guys are totally gone.
So these days we move more to the word mom, meet, understand,
what a dad, decide on the way forward.
But you need to have all stakeholders on board as equal partners
and treat them with the necessary respect.
In terms of other policy because if you compare a nuclear power plant,
normally it's about 40 years these days, they are moving to 60 years.
But for a waste disposal facility, the quickest, the shortest period is 300 years.
So it's long and just 80 years.
So for the 300 years you need to have a pipeline of human skills coming in
because I am aging, the nuclear industry is aging.
So we need to have that human resource development plan ready in place
so that if I leave the table, then one of the youth must actually take my seat.
It is time for the youth to take ownership of a programme that they will see out
because just then the generation will not see the ending of the programme,
it is currently the youth that will see that out.
So the youth must be part and parcel of any programme
and especially from a skills development perspective and to attract them.
In addition to that, I think also it does to install confidence in the denim public at large
and also giving confidence to the international community.
The IEA has various instruments like the joint convention on the safety of spend fuel
and on the safety of radioactive waste management
and it's a very comprehensive convention.
If you verify that, I think the global world will actually welcome you, support you
because it's a very comprehensive convention that states that you must look at your safety of your facilities,
you must do periodic safety assessments.
Another principle is that you need to ensure that you have the necessary human capital
to actually operate that facility over its lifetime.
You need to have the necessary policy framework and government framework in place
with independent regulator and so on.
So there are various international instruments that I will encourage newcomer countries to ratify
and that will assist them.
Also, I am putting on again my IEA hat.
We have just for example established the INERS,
they integrated a nuclear infrastructure review for newcomers.
It has about 19 elements, 19th element is waste management
but they look at that is the INERS is actually an assessment of the readiness of the country
to host a nuclear programme.
And that will give you very, very good guidance.
Is this an IEA instrumental for your organisation?
No, no, it's an IEA instrument and every member state in Nigeria is a member of the IEA.
So they can request at any time integrated nuclear infrastructure review
and as a member state it is free, it is totally free.
Cool, nice.
I want to draw your attention to an aspect of radioactive waste.
You may mention when I was talking with you previously about onaless radioactive waste.
So some people might wonder what is onaless although I might be able to give an answer to it
but carrying it from my Nespat we sound more kind of very credible.
Can you tell us about onaless radioactive waste and how they should be managed and what does it mean?
People have a wrong view of onaless waste.
Onaless waste this means that it relates to waste coming from nuclear power plant.
It mainly relates to waste stemming from radioactive, you know, your discusial radioactive sources.
For example, if you have a source in a density meter and a bucket is high deck
and the instrument is found along the road, you cannot identify.
So we call it orphan sources.
Oh, orphan sources, that's an old word for it.
Yeah, that's the word.
Onaless waste.
But onaless is normally where you cannot identify the owner but you need to deal with them.
It will be part and parcel of your governance framework that any country is setting up.
So every country must be ready to be a father to every radioactive waste generated in its territory.
That's good.
But that is a moral and ethical thing to do because if I go back, it's about the protection of the environment
and the protection of the health of the people.
So there's a duty on government to ensure that every citizen in this world are entitled to environment that don't contain any hazards.
Okay?
Yeah, I get that point.
So thank you so much for that explanation.
I think I would say that you really enriched this communication with a lot of citations and references to different environments.
In fact, I don't think we can actually exhaust your depth and world of knowledge.
It's so, so, so rich and inexhaustible.
But I think I will still try to hold on a bit and ask a little bit more questions because I feel that you are so rich that you give more than you require answers.
I would say that this is a question and answer session for just information I'm getting from you.
So I wonder, South Africa is the leader for the African continent because they've been operating in nuclear power plants for several decades now.
And I don't know, do you have any waste content in South Africa?
I understand you have a site already.
Yeah, Max.
In Finland, you already have a well-defined disposal because there are different ways of managing it like the commissioning level is the safe store and then there is the final disposal and then there is another level of it.
So the inter-instorage and then the safe store and then the disposal.
So I think I wonder like what's safe in South Africa in exploring maybe potential technologies.
I understand the on-call site in Finland developed a very kind of established technology on how to manage your waste and in the USA they are still deliberating on the Yucca Mountains.
So I wonder like do we have any kind of analog in South Africa for this kind of situation?
Yeah, let us quickly put the waste management in perspective.
There are actually three classes of radioactive waste.
That is your low-level waste and your intermediate level waste and then your high-level waste which is normally coming from your nuclear reactor, your spent nuclear fuel.
Right.
For the past 60 years, we are disposing, I mean, there are a lot of examples that for the past 60 years low-level waste have been disposed with the appropriate technologies.
For example, low-level waste represents about more than 90% of the volume of radioactive waste that is generated.
So we are by default, we are already dealing with 90% of radioactive waste.
In South Africa, we have a low-level waste repository that came into operation in 1986.
So it is more than 30 years that we have already and we have constantly improved on our disposal practices.
Currently, the biggest challenge is to deal with your high-level waste or your, we just plastic here and one example of your high-level waste is your spent fuel.
The technologies are there with your spent fuel or your high-level waste.
It was just a question of public acceptability.
Right.
And in the case of your command, it was federal states.
So they decided it must be in Nevada and Nevada objected to it and they have a powerful senator in the Senate of the UK and at the end of the day, I personally visited your command twice.
And it's a very, very suitable site but this due to political interference.
They have rejected this site.
Wow.
Interesting.
But what is very hard, I think is that women have obtained a license to construct it.
Six months ago, they have actually now obtained a license to excavate the disposal tunnel.
And hopefully by the end of this year or early next year, they will actually dispose the first high-level waste, the spent fuel in the world.
So the fundamental and Sweden are technically the leaders.
But as I stated, the issue is not that we don't have technologies to deal with it.
The issue is public acceptance and also the issue of getting a site.
Right.
And because people are, you know, the reason why there was no take off for a genuine, the abbreviation not in my backyard.
But this is in the NIMBI as well.
But these days as part of a more oriented approach, you include all your stakeholders and you ask for a willing hosting communities to put up their hands.
And you incentivize the communities, for example, putting up infrastructure schools, giving discounts in terms from a electricity tariff.
But there are a lot of advantages now giving to willing communities to host ideological repository.
And what we as global experts are seeing is that that approach of requesting for voluntary communities to host ideological repository is well funded and is taking off.
I get that point of really getting the neighboring communities like giving them social benefits for.
That's cool.
Yeah.
You know, I actually recall the kind of scenario in South Korea where I was for some time, the neighboring communities sometimes they just wake up out of the blues and say some protest and say, hey, we need you to remove this nuclear problem.
They obstructing our view of the sunrise and sunset.
And the utility has to respond to the demands actually.
So at every point in time, the people, as you said, the pillars of waste management has to consider the people, the environment and also the future generations.
So I think it's really very important for the utilities and those are considering any technology for disposal of nuclear power plant development in general, but actually consider the people and also how to always meet the demands of the people as well.
And I think it boils down to a lot of social and cultural considerations when it comes to these aspects.
And I quite guess the point you are trying to make about really considering what the people will need and what they will have to go through to kind of keep this facility in the neighborhood.
So it's really important to consider these aspects.
And I actually want to take you to another very important point that it needs to be relates to you as an individual because you actually build a very rich career over 25 years, 2 decades plus and dislike the lifetime of the youth that you are talking about.
And some of them might be wondering like, okay, so this is Mr. Alan, a very great role model for me.
And I am like trying to totally pass in which he has already drawn a range.
So like what has really helped you to progress to becoming who you are at this point Mr. Alan.
So the people might be interested in like in Africa most especially where they have very few people who are very adept in any kind of specialized knowledge area like yours.
And that are the kind of things that helps you maybe resources or people or maybe mindset.
I wouldn't know. Can you tell us something sir?
Yeah, I just want to tell a short story of myself.
I grew up in a very poverty stricken area.
And I was the first son of a family of 10 to actually matriculated and went to university.
So for the youth out there, I want to tell them that don't let your conditions define you.
Let your decisions drive you to your dream.
The world, Nigeria is your home. The world is your oyster.
For example, there are lots of Nigerians that occupies various leading roles all over the world.
If you go to NASA, if you go to any country, you will find Nigerian that is performing.
And your country has lots of role models for the youth to aspire to.
And the youth here forget about the fires that burns around you.
Let the fire inside yourself burn brighter than the fires around you.
So that you own your future, you have a future.
And as we have just celebrated yesterday International Mandela Day.
And as Mandela said, education is the biggest weapon to destroy poverty.
So the youth here, you have a great future, you have lots of opportunities and I want to encourage you to grab it.
Wow wow wow. So everybody, every young person or young lad or young star listening to this voice,
grab every opportunity coming from Mr. Allen.
He came from a very wonderful background and he didn't allow that to define him.
Let your decision drive your dream.
I really really sincerely and deeply appreciate your great words of wisdom and advice to our listeners
and also your depth of knowledge on technical issues about waste management.
And I would just want to have some lead to an idea.
It's kind of inexhaustible to talk with you.
I think I should have you one more time because you have so much.
I have to stop in you somehow so you have so much to deliver.
And I really appreciate that the South African community must actually recognize the great resources they have.
And actually make great use of this because in Africa, I consider you like a great horn I would say
because you are a great resource.
You added the setting up of the facility in Nigeria and you are there in the organization in South Africa.
I think in Africa we are blessed to have you sir.
Thank you so much for being who you are today.
For not allowing your situation to make you maybe not to be at the point you are at this point.
So I really really appreciate the time and I sincerely appreciate you especially for being who you are.
I would like to hear like if you have maybe just one line of sentence or two as your parting word for today's episode
and I hope to have you more in the future because you have so much debt of knowledge.
Maybe some specific aspect I would like to have you on in the future.
No, thank you for that.
My passion is youth development and bringing in the youth into the new industry.
And that's why as CEO, I focus on the youth.
Not only from university.
What I am personally doing is for example, we are various initiatives especially to bring in the youth,
but in particularly women.
So we have alternate campaigns like take a gold title to work.
We will go to the poorest of the poorest school, grab 10 or 20 girls so that they can spend time all week with our scientists,
our radiation protection officers, our engineers so that they can see what all the roles entails and make a decision on that.
Wow, that's wonderful.
Also we provide internships for young graduates to gain experience.
And I'm proud to say for example that more than 30% of the workforce of the organization that I'm leading is classified as youth.
And about 7% of our workforce are people with disabilities.
So it's all integrative and all inclusive process that we need to follow.
And at the end of the day is that people are asking me about why a nuclear.
People don't understand.
It's not only about nuclear power.
It's about the exploitation of nuclear science and technology to benefit the society.
If we don't exploit nuclear technology, then you will not be treated as a cancer patient.
You cannot go to a doctor for x-ray.
That are all nuclear applications but people are so fixated with nuclear energy as a very bad one.
I also say that normally our own bodies are radioactive because our own bodies contain 14-bit radiation.
Exactly, but not necessarily.
You get natural activity if you fly from South Africa to Nigeria.
But when we use nuclear applications for the generation of nuclear power, that is banned by our radioactivity.
So people don't have to fear it.
Wow, that's really the impact I see that you have given us.
This is really, you talked about diversity and inclusion.
You talked about the sustainability.
You talked about youth, your passion.
It's quite evident the way you talk and the way you explain things, the way you actually express your opinion and your future.
I thank you so much for this great passion.
I would like to say that the youth in Africa should not really be too eager to leave this continent.
Because when we all live in our ages, which strength do we use to move the continent to the next level?
I quite really understand the passion which we are talking and also see the way you are demonstrating it.
Not just by talking but also actively involving the young people, bringing them to understand, to learn from your organization and also the nuclear industry in general.
I wonder if you can give extended opportunities to other parts of Africa to bring in young people to actually come and see how things are working in those industries.
Because in most parts of Africa we don't have established nuclear industry.
In Nigeria we have a reactor and some facilities that we use.
But we need somewhere that is bigger, people can actually appreciate the nuclear power plant in South Africa.
Maybe on an excursion or maybe a nuclear decommissioning or waste management facility.
So if you can have that opportunity, we will be very much welcome to explore it.
So about already you've done great already in developing young minds.
Nice and silly want to thank you deeply for the time you are giving to this episode of afternoon podcast.
It is such a rich content that nobody would want to miss.
In fact people will surely glued to what you are saying in this episode.
Especially for the time you have allocated to be with me on this episode of afternoon podcast.
Thank you so much. I cannot appreciate you in also.
Thank you. And I just want to re-emphasize that we as Africans are ready to assist Nigeria
in any African Union or any other countries with the nuclear program.
And previously we have hosted lots of interns from various countries coming for six months course
so that they can see how what is waste conditioning through the whole process
and also again that is sponsored by the IAA. We call it normally a fellowship.
So don't let your dreams go up into flames.
Don't let people tell you that why do you want to venture into a nuclear career
even if Nigeria don't embark on a nuclear power plant.
As I stated there, the world will recognize your skills and the world is interconnected
and we live in a global village where skills are the new norm.
We have a knowledge about the economy and not anymore a commodity economy.
People forget that the oil industry also generates nuclear waste
but nobody is up in arms about the oil industry which is very big in the Niger Delta
but when it comes to nuclear we have preconceived must about
we don't have the ability to deal decisively with our waste
but we have the technologies are there and there are lots of examples of the safe management of radioactive waste
and we are now entering the laws with the disposal of spin fuel
Finland will lead and the others will follow.
I want to thank you and I want to encourage you to enrol for your STEM subjects
your science technology engineering math subjects
because I've also seen that for example I have people doing our safety assessments
and they are doing the modelling and at the end of the day the banks are grabbing them now
to do modelling for all the risks in terms
yes yes yes yes so if you can survive in the nuclear industry
any other industry will welcome you and they will try to approach you.
wow that's great thank you so much
in fact you've done so well like you've dealt so deep
and I can't actually wait to see you physically
and I hope that this corona comes and goes
and people are left to actually travel as usual
so we can actually meet face to face because
I really admire and appreciate the time we've had together
so corona please come and go so that I can meet Mr Alan
I just received my first vaccination two weeks ago
and in only one time I will go for my second one
and hopefully I can use that as a possible to come to Nigeria because
I miss Abuja, I miss the market there.
alright thank you I can't wait to see you again
okay but all the best and for the youth
take the opportunities, grab it and make the best
and as I said don't let your circumstances define you
let your decisions define you
and drive you to the next level
wow thank you so much I sincerely appreciate this Alan
but I'll come back and talk more about nuclear waste
because I think we need to talk on the most of nuclear waste
also and how to create a more conducive environment
for stakeholder engagement
alright I'm going to reach back to you on this
because I'm planning and thinking of something very interesting in the future
and I'll keep you in the loop of things as it unfolds
okay now that will be great
and it was really a great pleasure to speak to you
and to the audience
and please be assured that it's out to me
and I will respond personally
alright thank you very very much I sincerely appreciate it
okay bye bye