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టిగల౤టరింకి మతింటతయామిక౶ మరల్య కాికమా Malays Wars

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న� Вథి డికరతీతిిలైల మ skippingచ్నటననొ

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global personality david brei attracts to bi called a digital diplomats an 100 humans flake

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jackets for teams of change agents working in turbulent environments

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he adds giving talks to audience of more than 3000 people across the continent to this

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yubin building immense knowledge from this great resource

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added different leadership roles indolent environment involving people tech and data for

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public good in fact it took up i leading role launching the jo takes center of the Atalantic

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konsel in covid-19 times.

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His previous roles include bioterrorism, preparedness and response from year 2000 to year 2005 and

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a time on the ground in Afghanistan in 2009.

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Business Insider named him one of the top 24 Americans who are changing the world under

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40 and he was named a young global leader by world economic forum for year 2016 to

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2021.

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He later completed a PhD from Emory University's Guaizeta Business School into post-doctoral

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associate'ship at MIT and Harvard in 2008. Listened for a load of interconnectedness, I will say,

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and a relevance of nuclear security clarified in the mix of this interconnectedness by this great

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global personality David Bray PhD. Okay, so it was really nice meeting you during the N Square

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forum and the meeting and everything we had was really pointing to a very pressing issue about

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what we are experiencing now especially in this COVID era and hopefully we will come out of it and

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perhaps learn some new things or continue in what we've been doing. So I so much appreciate the

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you accepting the invitation to feature on this edition of the AFRINUK podcast.

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We're really glad to connect and I'm getting really great to connect with you. Thank you so

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much. So this podcast is about nuclear issues, nuclear security inclusive and what surrounds it.

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These days we are talking about climate change and the need to adopt efficient measures, low carbon

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measures to deny energy needs and nuclear is one of those low carbon energy resource that we need

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to meet our energy needs and in a very much low carbon form. So this podcast is launched to capture

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the low carbon energy resource which nuclear represents and also every other aspect that spins

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off from nuclear technology and I believe strongly that since you are in the N Square forum

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you are engaged in the nuclear security aspect so I think you are very great fit and considering

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your activities in Atlantic Council we can see how we can have a very good Nixus for this.

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Sure. My name is Jeremiah Mbazzo and I want to welcome David Bray from Atlantic Council,

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the Geotech Central in the US. So welcome David Bray and please can you tell us a bit about you

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as a way of introduction and what you do? Sure. Well again thanks for having me on the podcast.

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Really glad to be here with you and thank you for the invitation. The Atlantic Council's Geotech

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Center is focusing on how data and technologies are changing the world, changing societies, changing

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geopolitics and we were launched, we were sort of in inception mode in late 2019 and then planned

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to launch in early 2020. We actually scheduled the launch date and had everything arranged and we

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launched the morning of March the 11th 2020 which that same day later COVID-19 was declared a

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pandemic so we had a very, we were born in the midst of fires so to speak or had a very auspicious

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beginning and with that in mind really have been looking at how technology is changing and how the

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pandemic is changing, how data is changing, the world that we operate in, changing geopolitics,

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of which as you mentioned one aspect is nuclear secured but also thinking about everything from AI

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to space to to bio to supply chains and cybersecurity and more and on the nuclear security front

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I actually got involved with N-square back in 2017 I guess they initially had me as an advisor

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and I have remained an advisor in in in in different roles with N-square since then. I spoke at

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one of their in-person events when when in-person travel was possible too and and my interest with

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N-square really is if anything we've seen other technologies go from being only available to a

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few only being available to a few nation states to increasingly becoming democratized and in some

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cases that's good I mean I really like the fact that quite frankly for example ice cream is is is now

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more available to people than it was when it first came out I mean apparently the story of ice cream

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initially it was a very rare and expensive treat for the king of france and and obviously we've

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now made it so nothing be available to more people that's just one small example I mean you look at

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the internet we've gone from 1969 when there were all of six nodes on the internet to now

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half the planet getting connected to the internet hopefully more in the years ahead but also the

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amount of devices on the internet there are now anywhere between 35 to 45 billion network devices

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relative to just 7.8 7.9 billion people on the planet so we humans are actually now the minority

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on the planet relative to network devices on the planet so so so technology tends to become more

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accessible more democratized to people and when we think about that in terms of nuclear nuclear

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devices nuclear warheads and things like that that's actually not necessarily something we want

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to see I'm not for everyone having their own home nuclear device at and the house I don't think

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that's a good idea and so the question it raises very interesting question which is if technology

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tends to become more affordable and available and accessible yet we don't want it for nuclear because

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of the the risk of nuclear this raises a very interesting question about what are effective

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strategies to either deter to hold it back to to interrupt the supply chains that might make it

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available and and to make it so this is an activity that's not just done by a few but I don't

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think we can do that anymore I don't think this can be done just by the national security communities

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of different nations I think it's something where we do need to involve the general population and

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and and also private sector in coming out of solutions whether it's detecting things from space

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detecting things through other means that can ideally work towards a world in which there is

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less risk of nuclear devices becoming something that can actually become a harm to us all and

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and I'm not I'm not one that I mean it would be very great if we could have a world in which

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nobody had nuclear devices but I'd be very worried if we're in a world where nobody had any nuclear

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devices all it would take is one to get it and then there'd be huge risk but it's more of a

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question about what can we do to work towards a world in which these are not things that we are

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worried about actually being used these are not things that we are worried about actually killing

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large amounts of people yeah that's great like you're giving a very great and very deep

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expozy of what you're doing in your in your organization and it's such a broad and very

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large area and scope of of reach if I may say and I think it's trying to like inform us on the

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way we should make our choices on how to go about modernization and democratization of of

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technology and all that comes with it so but you made a very salient point about nuclear security

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and why we should be very much conservative in terms of technology when releasing although most

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african countries don't have to worry about this because the pelindaba treaty of south africa has

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actually meant that we relinquish every hold to any nuclear weapons or things in that category so

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most african countries we don't hold on to such but those major nuclear weapons states I think

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they need to make more kind of show more leadership in terms of giving heed or adhering to those

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treaties and conventions that necessitates them to not to develop further or like to to degrade

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their nuclear weapon capabilities so thank you for that illustration on on nuclear security but

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I want to a little bit go closer to what your company your organization geotech the geotech center

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in atlantic council does so kind of tries to capture a whole very broad range of issues that

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are happening around our society today and I kind of wonder we are kind of getting into a kind of

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information ocean if I may say there's this man that said it's like an information overload kind

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of age in which we are so I wonder like how do we avoid the extremes so and try to maintain a balance

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in this mix I know that we should limit some information and at some point we need to give

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out this information to enable innovation and stuffs like that but how do we strike a balance

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in this information ocean we find ourselves in this age sir yes well I think you hit the nail in

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the head which is again the trend that that that not only do technologies tend to become more

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accessible and available but also information itself and so when information increasingly becomes

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available on how to construct nuclear devices or the risk of nuclear devices that that poses a very

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interesting risk and a question which is do we censor it do we remove it but does that then

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cut into freedom of speech you know should it be out there and I think that's that's where it's a

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really hard question I think it's going to be answered individually by different localities and

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nations that have different solutions I think it's going to have to be answered but recognizing

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again we're still connected to the internet and so you know you may decide that for your people from

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other nations may choose that it is and if they put on the internet and you can find it do that

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just to feature your very own purpose and so yeah I think it's I got I had to have had to pick a

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leaning I would pick a leaning that says we should air towards not putting information that makes it

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accelerate the democratization of or the accessibility of nuclear devices that would mean

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us harm I think there's there's a lot of danger in that just like you know there was the whole

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controversy about should science publish the the complete sequence for the polio virus or the

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spanish influence of 1918 and think that's again that's one of those cases where you have to balance

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the interests of the public with the risk to people having mass harm or people using it for

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less than good purpose so yeah that's a very great point from you and in terms of educating

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the public not how to build it how to educate the public it's very important for us to know how

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how relevant it is to control the access to information that might put in danger to the

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public than that's the very good point from you sir most african countries have signed and ratified

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the non-proliferation treaty but some countries have not and I don't know like if you have much details

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about the implication of these kind of signatories and what it means for those who have signed and

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those who have not signed it I mean like well I'd be interested in your thoughts as well I mean I

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would say it would be worth asking for those who have not signed why are they holding out for

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concessions do they think they can get a more favorable set of terms or do they have nuclear

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aspirations and I think those are all questions worth asking I would say if you look at you know

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there if there is a if there is a somewhat good news story over the last decade or two it's that

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we now see deterrence by nation states through cyber means relative to nuclear means that that

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now you know the risk that someone could cause a really bad day to your civilian infrastructure

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through cyber means which you know while harmful and could possibly hurt some people doesn't destroy

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the planet if that's the way we now do deterrence and nation state conflicts versus nuclear I at least

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celebrate that and I guess I would ask the question for Africa which is you know for those who have not

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signed nuclear non-proliferation agreements my question would be why and I'd be interested in

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your thoughts on that too yeah that's true anyway there is this guy Jeremy Rifkin who considered

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that I'm like a future prophet like a progress indicator if I may say so he talked about the

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zero marginal cost society in one of his books so and I see our society today tending towards that

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because the cost to produce some things that used to be very expensive like heavy industry like the

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3d and everything has really made the cost of producing some things that goes through a whole line

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of the process industry very cheap and you can have a tabletop kind of 3d printer that can make

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some components for for our devices either the cell phone or some things that we find very good

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use of in our in our domain so this has led to like proliferation and democratization as we said

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initially of of products and also innovation as well I wonder like you have also posited that

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this should not tend to us the harm of our society but you know we cannot prevent these things from

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happening in a negative way you know technology itself is is neutral it's it's cannot on itself

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go wrong or like except it's used for the wrong purpose it's it comes for to aid human abilities

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in some form so as things get cheaper that could be of harmful effects to the society like what should

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be our response so what in what way should we respond to using these kinds of cheap technology

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like things that we can easily reach and that could mean harm to us and you know your center the

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geotech center deals a lot about data and data is the fuel for the society in which we live both

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data for energy data for medicine manufacturing nanotechnology communications and space exploration

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robotics and the rest of them so your organization lends a lot of do I say food into this democratization

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of technology in our age so how should we approach this large information or this great

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opportunity that this zero marginal costs or this kind of age in which we are how do we approach

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it you know I understand that human beings had incredible instinct to survive in any situation

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in which we they find themselves but sometimes we need to be educated on the best way to approach

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each thing that comes to us can you give any advice on this sir sure so you know I know there's

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a lot of people that have been talking about whether you call it as you know a zero marginal cost

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society or an age of abundance and I think certain things can be abundant in fact we know for example

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already that the planet produces more food than necessary to feed people it's just unfortunate

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because we don't get it to the right places in some cases we throw it away and people go hungry

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I think the estimates are we produce 150 percent of the food necessary to feed everybody on the planet

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but clearly people still go hungry we don't get it to the right place and so it's an interesting

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question of what things can be abundant and my assessment is we could work to make food abundant

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we could make clean water to be abundant we could also assuming you know we don't we don't waste it

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but we could also work to make clean energy available as well for folks and that could be

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certain things at the same time there are other things that I'm not sure can be made abundant

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or at least get to zero marginal cost at the moment rare earth minerals for example that that's a

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problem and things like that and so I would say for navigating this it's it's trying to figure out

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what things can you make abundant but for certain things you don't want abundant like we don't want

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nuclear warheads to be abundant or zero marginal cost to people and the good news is some of those

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materials in a refinement process are difficult and so if I was thinking about it again back to

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nuclear security I would be trying to make it so that things that that that are harmful to society

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or the risk of harm try to increase the cost as much as possible so it's difficult for for people

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to pursue those because we don't want those to be democratized like like nuclear warheads or if

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that's not possible make it so that it's it's it's as inexpensive and available as possible to at

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least identify and detect those who would either try to seek and pursue or obtain these things to mean

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as harm so effectively crowdsourcing crowdsourcing and swarming the space so that you can identify

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if someone is trying to pursue nuclear warheads for conflict purposes or power purposes or whatever

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ends that would be non conducive to a civil society and a larger international order too that's great

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this really brings me to the topic of the space exploration you know some things that were impossible

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sometimes ego alone mox which is space excimations has really brought these things to like like very soon

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there will be tourism to space and and and another part of it and this kind of brings a futuristic

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kind of ideal of what could go wrong or what could go right you know or what are the possibilities

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of of the space i the question is this like when it is very easy for everybody to access space how do we

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kind of like bring the government of space so that people do not bring harm to others who are

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either elicomas or those who are kind of ennovies to that space so that we can actually exploit it to

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the best of our abilities for future and for the conducive kind of dwelling of those who might want

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to make it their their continual aboard in the future like because your your organization has a way of

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a topic or a subtitle of commercialization of space and you know when when it comes to trade you know

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there is a relationship people get to rub their shoulders and frictions must come up so i wonder

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like what kind of idea do you have for the future of space right so you're absolutely right space is one

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of those areas that depending on the choices we make together it could either be a place where it does

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benefit everybody including people that don't go into space but benefit from it for example in terms

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of either services are provided by space in terms of broadband services and communications same thing

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also for gps and and and knowing where you are also there could be the availability of making

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available images from space that could help inform soil use conservation use land rights or

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even or other issues that need to be addressed in society and so if we make the right choices space

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could benefit everybody including people that don't go into space or if we make what i would in

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my opinion consider to be wrong set of course choices it could be space is only for a privileged

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few and only benefits a privileged few and then that that is not a future that i think is going

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to be uplifting of as many people as possible and so i would say for space first step is we learn

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by doing this is this is new territory this is this is one of the things where you know particularly

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for for trying to map out the space and pun not intended map out this area we're going to have to do

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practices that that actually show a new way forward that show a better way forward and illuminate

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a way forward and i think that's going to be important and so i'd love to see projects involving

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either broadband from space and nuclear security that that's a good question i was going to say

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well i think the first of the nuclear security is is you have to have communication so i would again

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go back to can space provide broadband from space can it provide images from space that are useful

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in terms of nuclear security it could very well be it could pick up you know could we pick up

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signatures of those that are pursuing nuclear refinement or weaponization or things like that

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and make that available to everybody so that actually is calling out those that would mean us harm

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and so i think that there's a lot of opportunities in space is particularly when it comes to

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nuclear security as a way to make it so that you know the the old ways of requiring people to be on the

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ground for monitoring which would require access and then require a scheduled visit which of course

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could be you can move whatever you were doing before the scheduled visit shows up maybe we could

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actually move beyond that and not require people on the ground not the hat require scheduled visits

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but instead have a persistent way of monitoring those who would pursue nuclear devices in ways

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that are harmful to the planet wow yeah that's very correct the communication is the is key like

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having communication satellites and feeding us information is really very important and some

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countries that don't have their satellites can always link up to those that do have doubts that

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the space has held great opportunities for us to exchange information and also keep us aware

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when there is any nuclear security bridge on the pipeline this takes me to the next point you

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know technology has been so close to humans and it's also part of humans inventions as a way of

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advancing in our in our space in which we find ourselves and we are coming so close i was reading

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about the eco modernist manifesto written by Mike Selenberger and his colleagues and this kind of

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brings me to the kind of kind of thoughts that humans are becoming more advanced that we tend to

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leave those traditional ways of doing things there is a kind of large rural to urban migration people

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are getting close to opportunities in urban urban places and this kind of paints a picture of a new

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world that is coming up and it's going to come to a point where i was watching a movie where somebody

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that engineered a robot and AI got to a point where he could not control it because the AI has

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learned so much to know to be self aware and know when harm is coming its way so i wonder like at

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what point do we need to decouple or continue in this nexus of humans and technology can you give

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us some light like i mean like i wonder like how will a machine or a robot i bought to aid my

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life or living come to be a source of harm to me like it brings me to a point where i kind of wonder

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like at what point should we call it okay at this point let's say okay this there should be a decoupling

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a separation from humans and technology or like keep it in the right full place so that we don't get

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to it to harm's way yeah that's a very good question i mean like if you had the out you know if you

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had the if you had the foresight would you would you try to avoid pursuing a certain technology and i

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think that that's a really hard question but you you're absolutely right that that we actually had

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a we had an event and a discussion that's available on our website with the geotext center about the

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risk of what's called autonomous systems paired with artificial intelligence and so you know artificial

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intelligence by itself does not necessarily always have freedom of action it could be it could be a

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recommendation system for humans but humans still in the loop or require a human to take action but

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is providing advice but it's not you know i'm not necessarily say i would say the ai that we know

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now is self-aware but it can it can it can make estimations and predictions that are useful to

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human if the humans in the loop then at the same time there's this thing called autonomy or autonomous

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systems that operate independent of human action and you can have autonomous systems that do not have

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artificial intelligence and they're just following what's been told explicitly to them to do or you

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can have autonomous systems that are paired with artificial intelligence and that gets interesting

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because now you're not being explicit to them as to what to do you may be in fact you will have to

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be explicit as to what the overall goal is but you're not telling them exactly how to get there and

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what the ai in this case a subset of ai called machine learning is doing is attempting to optimize

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towards that goal in an autonomous fashion and there are some people that that that say there there may

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have been a case where a drone that was autonomous that was using artificial intelligence specifically

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computer vision was used to hunt down someone and actually in africa that's just one example of

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of of of of it being used in a complex situation and that raises very interesting questions should

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should a should we be able to use autonomous systems paired with ai on the battlefield to to

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track people down and nor possibly cause cause them harm and i would say interesting enough the same

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approach to nuclear deterrence may be may be necessary here in the autonomous and ai space which is

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what can we do to to deter people to make it expensive to pursue to make it so that if you are

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pursuing it we see it if you do on a battlefield we call it out but we shouldn't be completely naive

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either which is a world in which these systems don't exist that that if we if we try to put a ban

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on autonomous and ai technologies which which i think could be useful but we should also recognize

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that that that such a ban would mean that anyone who rolled it out with and with no one else being

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prepared could actually cause harm and so we're going to have to think about some deterrence strategy

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similar to nuclear that discourages bad actors from using autonomous systems with ai to harm others

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is really interesting and it's very pertinent for us to understand that this ai systems need to be

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really really have some level of governance and it's very important what you've said and the

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autonomous system must be under control and prevented from getting to the hands of those that

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might use it to to harm the generality of people so yeah so you've really brought a new view of the

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present and the future that we are expecting you told us of possibilities of the human mind and how

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you have also navigated and brought your organization to for you got formed in the midst of fire and

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i am beginning to imagine that if you have survived getting formed in the fire it's just like

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looking at what the blacksmith does you know when the fire when the iron goes into the into the fire

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it gets that's when it gets beating into shape into the shape and the form in which it is desired

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so i am beginning to imagine that the geotech center has been beating into shape and form through the

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covid dystopia if i may say so i you have really demonstrated the great level of wit and

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understanding of the situation in which we are you have told us a lot about nuclear security and how

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we can monitor it from space you have also communicated very wisely in a very vast and

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expansive way and i would say that my listeners to just bask in the expanse of information and

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knowledge you have really given to us and this brings me to the point of how you have actually

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grown to this level of so much depth of understanding and knowledge and so much information about the

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useful facts we should know to survive in the world today like i kind of wonder like what kind of

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things has helped you to becoming who you are at this point dr david oh that's a well i i'm

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when i'm humbled and thank you and too that's that's a that's a that's a great question i guess i'd say

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if i'm if i'm able to do anything it's it's first and foremost a huge credit to my parents my dad was

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a methodist minister my mom was a school teacher and and and i think that that that that inspired me

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to to also strive to serve and make a difference in the lives of others and and to be uh um you know

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try to try to try to try to at least give more back to the world than than i received and i i did

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receive a lot because that next thing i would say after that thanks to my parents was um i just happened

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to have a fortunate case of i encountered mentors along the way uh there was a uh dr bill jeffrey

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who at the time was at a place called the institute for defense analyses um later on in my life he was

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the CEO of sanford research institute sri and and recently um um transitioned to additional role after

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that um that did just sort of cultivated a native and natural curiosity about how things work but even

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more importantly not just how they worked but what we could do about it like what can we do with

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this what does that enable the art of the possible um also had and had colleagues with with the bio

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terrace and prepare a response program i was just fortunate enough that i that i was working for

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the government at a very early age because of because of my ability with computers again cultivated

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thanks to my mentors along the way working with the bio terrace and program in 2000 2001 responded

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to the events of 9 11 um and actually was was a lead part of the technology role for the bio

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terrace and program um and then also uh spend time in afghanistan and i would say so so those

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positive experiences but i would also say you know i've been in circumstances where i've seen

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bad things happen i've had bad things happen i've had um and i think if anything we sometimes

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we sometimes miss that we are a product not only of the the good things that happen in the goals

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but also our choices when when not so great things happen or bad things happen do we choose to be

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a victim of the circumstance or do we choose to find a way to find goodness in it and and to find

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something that makes us able to be better and and give better as a result and so um i often say

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i've lived a varied life um and i i feel very um humbled by the friends i've made along the way

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um and and and i've also chosen a difficult one in that i'm an intentionally a person that tries to be

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nonpartisan which which i know in the united states and i'm sure elsewhere in the world too there

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where there are representative forms of government is hard that doesn't mean i'm neutral in my opinion

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but it means i try to build bridges amongst shared values that are that are values led first

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as opposed to the flag that's being flown first and so whether it's someone that's in the same

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country as mine that has a value set someone outside in a different country that has the same

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value set obviously we're connecting because we both care about nuclear security and in square

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which has brought us together too um i try to be a bridge builder um and again that doesn't mean

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i don't have values i i have very strong values but i identify with people with values first versus

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some easy mental shortcut which is what flag or what pin you're wearing um i think it's very keen

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to actually do that and and i think we still need those bridge builders even though it's not always

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an easy path to pick that's really great i sincerely appreciate like you've taken us through

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a very important aspect of your life how you got to the level in which you are and so many people

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who are coming up in the world don't know how to get by over some things like some challenges come

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their way and they like begin to question the situation brings me to the last question i want

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to ask you and dr david i wonder like looking at africa and the position in which we are both in

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terms of nuclear and also technology in general and geotech and how your organization like what

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kinds of opportunities or challenges or how do you think we should best approach having experience

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from maybe some visit you may have had to some developing or some maybe low resource areas i wonder

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like what your view and what your what the approach you think will best meet or like emancipating

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people from the slime if you may say right well no it is a big well first i'd be interested in

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your thoughts and then i'll jump into but i mean i really appreciate the question meet do you mind

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going with first with your thoughts and then i'll chime in too i'd like to hear from you okay well

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we live in a very traditional society and in africa we are very communal in the way we do things and

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the western culture it's somehow it comes both with the good and the shocking part i wouldn't say

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bad but i would say shocking you know because there's this lifestyle of although independence that

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the western culture has brought you know where people gets to like be on their own for a very long

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time and this has been infiltrating in the lifestyle as well and also affecting the society so

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people tend to be more traditional more communal you know it's very normal for somebody to say that it

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takes a village to bring up a child and when bringing up a child you know the person gets to mingle with

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the society you can get your neighbor and discipline in your child without getting any kind of

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rebel from the parents in the olden time but these days it's becoming the other way this means a

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lot i know i wouldn't want to dive into the diversity and the dynamics of these kinds of things

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but in my opinion i think that the people should solve their problems in the unique way in which

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they feel and sometimes and some challenges just comes as kind of something that is brought hey you

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must respond to this and this makes africa seem to be the people that always live frog you know there is no

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natural progression of how maybe learning from experience of technology or process

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of how things should go like the climate change for example you know africa i don't think should be

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worried about climate change because there are other more pressing issues like meeting the basic

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needs you know rather than worrying about climate change like i had a guest that said that even if

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we triple our current energy resource like from fossil and we continue using the way we are using

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we contribute less than two percent to the climate worries you know so i i kind of think that

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it's a unique environment in africa and we are very much communal and very warm

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hathed if i may say sorry maybe i might be too biased in that regard but there are other warm people

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are also warm in every other area but i kind of feel this aspect should be considered when

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talking about african issues and yeah i mean like if there is anything that technology does it

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should also impact the social aspects like the social lifestyle should be considered and then

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i know that culture evolves you know the way we did things before is not the way we should do it now

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and it won't be the way we will be doing it in the future so but it's kind of a complex mix but

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my own basic understanding is that we have a way of a common way of doing things and i think this

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should be considered in in in things maybe when we are adopting western cultures or western technology

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or or ideals that might be coming from the west so yeah right back to you i think i think that's very

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well said and i would agree i mean my i've had the fortunate opportunity to be uh i was in i had an

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opportunity to travel and and actually work for a little bit in gana briefly in bikino faso and also

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south africa wow and so i i your your your observations match what i what i saw too which is

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very very warm and genuine and and friendly people and i would say common humanity and and and my wife

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also she she had she spent some time in kinya as well and has very fun memories still there

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and so um so uh and i know several colleagues here in the states that come from africa that i

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considered be friends as well and i i've you know through through the through the connectivity of the

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internet i've continued to have conversations with people and so i would say you know again i'm

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probably not the person to give the the the solutions for for africa i would probably be the

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absolute wrong person but i would say i can i can help provide some questions i can help provide

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some some knowledge i would say climate change is clearly going to happen and i do worry that it's

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going to it's going to hit those who were less responsible for it harder than those who were

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responsible for for some of the contributions which is not exactly fair um and so we may need

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to think some about the governance questions which is you know i for example i have colleagues in

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brazil and i was actually talking to them about and i and i and this was several years ago and it

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now seems like there are some pilot projects where could you know could countries in europe for

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example or here in the united states or north america those that want to see brazil maintain its

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its rainforest could they actually have a lease where they pay parts of brazil not to cut down

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the rainforest at a amount that is more than the value that that brazil would gain if they did

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cut it down so that way there's an economic incentive to do that um because i think that

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that's the only way we're going to really be sort of approaching some sense of fairness because

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otherwise for us to say well you can't cut that down or you can't you can't do that um when in fact

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you know 150 to 250 years ago the industrial era in europe and the united states advanced because

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we did do um you know resource cultivation and things like that it seems a little bit disingenuous

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and so we've got to figure out ways to align interest um and and think about us as holistically

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as a planet connected together and i think that's where i probably africa has a lot to share

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the world on those views and i look forward to learning more i think i think the diplomatic

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guys will give a better answer because they always stand on the neutral ground you know there you go

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yeah yeah so it's it's such an amazing and um very insightful and informative and very enriching

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and like to interact with such an erudite person as you dr bray david i really appreciate the time

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and the the the demand in which you you took to explain the issues and surrounding africa and also

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the nuclear security and also um human capacity in general i sincerely appreciate the time with you

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and i hope that we can have some time to talk again in the future of course i'm really glad

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we connected i'm really glad we connected through in square um thank you for for wonderful questions

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and your views as well and uh hope we can continue to connect and similarly um if you do get to travel

392
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:44,120
and you're passing through um happy to host you for a lunch or a meal my friend i really appreciate

393
00:37:44,120 --> 00:38:01,880
this conversation thanks i appreciate that too have a good day sir all right