టిగల౤టరింకి మతింటతయామిక౶ మరల్య కాికమా Malays Wars
న� Вథి డికరతీతిిలైల మ skippingచ్నటననొ
global personality david brei attracts to bi called a digital diplomats an 100 humans flake
jackets for teams of change agents working in turbulent environments
he adds giving talks to audience of more than 3000 people across the continent to this
yubin building immense knowledge from this great resource
added different leadership roles indolent environment involving people tech and data for
public good in fact it took up i leading role launching the jo takes center of the Atalantic
konsel in covid-19 times.
His previous roles include bioterrorism, preparedness and response from year 2000 to year 2005 and
a time on the ground in Afghanistan in 2009.
Business Insider named him one of the top 24 Americans who are changing the world under
40 and he was named a young global leader by world economic forum for year 2016 to
2021.
He later completed a PhD from Emory University's Guaizeta Business School into post-doctoral
associate'ship at MIT and Harvard in 2008. Listened for a load of interconnectedness, I will say,
and a relevance of nuclear security clarified in the mix of this interconnectedness by this great
global personality David Bray PhD. Okay, so it was really nice meeting you during the N Square
forum and the meeting and everything we had was really pointing to a very pressing issue about
what we are experiencing now especially in this COVID era and hopefully we will come out of it and
perhaps learn some new things or continue in what we've been doing. So I so much appreciate the
you accepting the invitation to feature on this edition of the AFRINUK podcast.
We're really glad to connect and I'm getting really great to connect with you. Thank you so
much. So this podcast is about nuclear issues, nuclear security inclusive and what surrounds it.
These days we are talking about climate change and the need to adopt efficient measures, low carbon
measures to deny energy needs and nuclear is one of those low carbon energy resource that we need
to meet our energy needs and in a very much low carbon form. So this podcast is launched to capture
the low carbon energy resource which nuclear represents and also every other aspect that spins
off from nuclear technology and I believe strongly that since you are in the N Square forum
you are engaged in the nuclear security aspect so I think you are very great fit and considering
your activities in Atlantic Council we can see how we can have a very good Nixus for this.
Sure. My name is Jeremiah Mbazzo and I want to welcome David Bray from Atlantic Council,
the Geotech Central in the US. So welcome David Bray and please can you tell us a bit about you
as a way of introduction and what you do? Sure. Well again thanks for having me on the podcast.
Really glad to be here with you and thank you for the invitation. The Atlantic Council's Geotech
Center is focusing on how data and technologies are changing the world, changing societies, changing
geopolitics and we were launched, we were sort of in inception mode in late 2019 and then planned
to launch in early 2020. We actually scheduled the launch date and had everything arranged and we
launched the morning of March the 11th 2020 which that same day later COVID-19 was declared a
pandemic so we had a very, we were born in the midst of fires so to speak or had a very auspicious
beginning and with that in mind really have been looking at how technology is changing and how the
pandemic is changing, how data is changing, the world that we operate in, changing geopolitics,
of which as you mentioned one aspect is nuclear secured but also thinking about everything from AI
to space to to bio to supply chains and cybersecurity and more and on the nuclear security front
I actually got involved with N-square back in 2017 I guess they initially had me as an advisor
and I have remained an advisor in in in in different roles with N-square since then. I spoke at
one of their in-person events when when in-person travel was possible too and and my interest with
N-square really is if anything we've seen other technologies go from being only available to a
few only being available to a few nation states to increasingly becoming democratized and in some
cases that's good I mean I really like the fact that quite frankly for example ice cream is is is now
more available to people than it was when it first came out I mean apparently the story of ice cream
initially it was a very rare and expensive treat for the king of france and and obviously we've
now made it so nothing be available to more people that's just one small example I mean you look at
the internet we've gone from 1969 when there were all of six nodes on the internet to now
half the planet getting connected to the internet hopefully more in the years ahead but also the
amount of devices on the internet there are now anywhere between 35 to 45 billion network devices
relative to just 7.8 7.9 billion people on the planet so we humans are actually now the minority
on the planet relative to network devices on the planet so so so technology tends to become more
accessible more democratized to people and when we think about that in terms of nuclear nuclear
devices nuclear warheads and things like that that's actually not necessarily something we want
to see I'm not for everyone having their own home nuclear device at and the house I don't think
that's a good idea and so the question it raises very interesting question which is if technology
tends to become more affordable and available and accessible yet we don't want it for nuclear because
of the the risk of nuclear this raises a very interesting question about what are effective
strategies to either deter to hold it back to to interrupt the supply chains that might make it
available and and to make it so this is an activity that's not just done by a few but I don't
think we can do that anymore I don't think this can be done just by the national security communities
of different nations I think it's something where we do need to involve the general population and
and and also private sector in coming out of solutions whether it's detecting things from space
detecting things through other means that can ideally work towards a world in which there is
less risk of nuclear devices becoming something that can actually become a harm to us all and
and I'm not I'm not one that I mean it would be very great if we could have a world in which
nobody had nuclear devices but I'd be very worried if we're in a world where nobody had any nuclear
devices all it would take is one to get it and then there'd be huge risk but it's more of a
question about what can we do to work towards a world in which these are not things that we are
worried about actually being used these are not things that we are worried about actually killing
large amounts of people yeah that's great like you're giving a very great and very deep
expozy of what you're doing in your in your organization and it's such a broad and very
large area and scope of of reach if I may say and I think it's trying to like inform us on the
way we should make our choices on how to go about modernization and democratization of of
technology and all that comes with it so but you made a very salient point about nuclear security
and why we should be very much conservative in terms of technology when releasing although most
african countries don't have to worry about this because the pelindaba treaty of south africa has
actually meant that we relinquish every hold to any nuclear weapons or things in that category so
most african countries we don't hold on to such but those major nuclear weapons states I think
they need to make more kind of show more leadership in terms of giving heed or adhering to those
treaties and conventions that necessitates them to not to develop further or like to to degrade
their nuclear weapon capabilities so thank you for that illustration on on nuclear security but
I want to a little bit go closer to what your company your organization geotech the geotech center
in atlantic council does so kind of tries to capture a whole very broad range of issues that
are happening around our society today and I kind of wonder we are kind of getting into a kind of
information ocean if I may say there's this man that said it's like an information overload kind
of age in which we are so I wonder like how do we avoid the extremes so and try to maintain a balance
in this mix I know that we should limit some information and at some point we need to give
out this information to enable innovation and stuffs like that but how do we strike a balance
in this information ocean we find ourselves in this age sir yes well I think you hit the nail in
the head which is again the trend that that that not only do technologies tend to become more
accessible and available but also information itself and so when information increasingly becomes
available on how to construct nuclear devices or the risk of nuclear devices that that poses a very
interesting risk and a question which is do we censor it do we remove it but does that then
cut into freedom of speech you know should it be out there and I think that's that's where it's a
really hard question I think it's going to be answered individually by different localities and
nations that have different solutions I think it's going to have to be answered but recognizing
again we're still connected to the internet and so you know you may decide that for your people from
other nations may choose that it is and if they put on the internet and you can find it do that
just to feature your very own purpose and so yeah I think it's I got I had to have had to pick a
leaning I would pick a leaning that says we should air towards not putting information that makes it
accelerate the democratization of or the accessibility of nuclear devices that would mean
us harm I think there's there's a lot of danger in that just like you know there was the whole
controversy about should science publish the the complete sequence for the polio virus or the
spanish influence of 1918 and think that's again that's one of those cases where you have to balance
the interests of the public with the risk to people having mass harm or people using it for
less than good purpose so yeah that's a very great point from you and in terms of educating
the public not how to build it how to educate the public it's very important for us to know how
how relevant it is to control the access to information that might put in danger to the
public than that's the very good point from you sir most african countries have signed and ratified
the non-proliferation treaty but some countries have not and I don't know like if you have much details
about the implication of these kind of signatories and what it means for those who have signed and
those who have not signed it I mean like well I'd be interested in your thoughts as well I mean I
would say it would be worth asking for those who have not signed why are they holding out for
concessions do they think they can get a more favorable set of terms or do they have nuclear
aspirations and I think those are all questions worth asking I would say if you look at you know
there if there is a if there is a somewhat good news story over the last decade or two it's that
we now see deterrence by nation states through cyber means relative to nuclear means that that
now you know the risk that someone could cause a really bad day to your civilian infrastructure
through cyber means which you know while harmful and could possibly hurt some people doesn't destroy
the planet if that's the way we now do deterrence and nation state conflicts versus nuclear I at least
celebrate that and I guess I would ask the question for Africa which is you know for those who have not
signed nuclear non-proliferation agreements my question would be why and I'd be interested in
your thoughts on that too yeah that's true anyway there is this guy Jeremy Rifkin who considered
that I'm like a future prophet like a progress indicator if I may say so he talked about the
zero marginal cost society in one of his books so and I see our society today tending towards that
because the cost to produce some things that used to be very expensive like heavy industry like the
3d and everything has really made the cost of producing some things that goes through a whole line
of the process industry very cheap and you can have a tabletop kind of 3d printer that can make
some components for for our devices either the cell phone or some things that we find very good
use of in our in our domain so this has led to like proliferation and democratization as we said
initially of of products and also innovation as well I wonder like you have also posited that
this should not tend to us the harm of our society but you know we cannot prevent these things from
happening in a negative way you know technology itself is is neutral it's it's cannot on itself
go wrong or like except it's used for the wrong purpose it's it comes for to aid human abilities
in some form so as things get cheaper that could be of harmful effects to the society like what should
be our response so what in what way should we respond to using these kinds of cheap technology
like things that we can easily reach and that could mean harm to us and you know your center the
geotech center deals a lot about data and data is the fuel for the society in which we live both
data for energy data for medicine manufacturing nanotechnology communications and space exploration
robotics and the rest of them so your organization lends a lot of do I say food into this democratization
of technology in our age so how should we approach this large information or this great
opportunity that this zero marginal costs or this kind of age in which we are how do we approach
it you know I understand that human beings had incredible instinct to survive in any situation
in which we they find themselves but sometimes we need to be educated on the best way to approach
each thing that comes to us can you give any advice on this sir sure so you know I know there's
a lot of people that have been talking about whether you call it as you know a zero marginal cost
society or an age of abundance and I think certain things can be abundant in fact we know for example
already that the planet produces more food than necessary to feed people it's just unfortunate
because we don't get it to the right places in some cases we throw it away and people go hungry
I think the estimates are we produce 150 percent of the food necessary to feed everybody on the planet
but clearly people still go hungry we don't get it to the right place and so it's an interesting
question of what things can be abundant and my assessment is we could work to make food abundant
we could make clean water to be abundant we could also assuming you know we don't we don't waste it
but we could also work to make clean energy available as well for folks and that could be
certain things at the same time there are other things that I'm not sure can be made abundant
or at least get to zero marginal cost at the moment rare earth minerals for example that that's a
problem and things like that and so I would say for navigating this it's it's trying to figure out
what things can you make abundant but for certain things you don't want abundant like we don't want
nuclear warheads to be abundant or zero marginal cost to people and the good news is some of those
materials in a refinement process are difficult and so if I was thinking about it again back to
nuclear security I would be trying to make it so that things that that that are harmful to society
or the risk of harm try to increase the cost as much as possible so it's difficult for for people
to pursue those because we don't want those to be democratized like like nuclear warheads or if
that's not possible make it so that it's it's it's as inexpensive and available as possible to at
least identify and detect those who would either try to seek and pursue or obtain these things to mean
as harm so effectively crowdsourcing crowdsourcing and swarming the space so that you can identify
if someone is trying to pursue nuclear warheads for conflict purposes or power purposes or whatever
ends that would be non conducive to a civil society and a larger international order too that's great
this really brings me to the topic of the space exploration you know some things that were impossible
sometimes ego alone mox which is space excimations has really brought these things to like like very soon
there will be tourism to space and and and another part of it and this kind of brings a futuristic
kind of ideal of what could go wrong or what could go right you know or what are the possibilities
of of the space i the question is this like when it is very easy for everybody to access space how do we
kind of like bring the government of space so that people do not bring harm to others who are
either elicomas or those who are kind of ennovies to that space so that we can actually exploit it to
the best of our abilities for future and for the conducive kind of dwelling of those who might want
to make it their their continual aboard in the future like because your your organization has a way of
a topic or a subtitle of commercialization of space and you know when when it comes to trade you know
there is a relationship people get to rub their shoulders and frictions must come up so i wonder
like what kind of idea do you have for the future of space right so you're absolutely right space is one
of those areas that depending on the choices we make together it could either be a place where it does
benefit everybody including people that don't go into space but benefit from it for example in terms
of either services are provided by space in terms of broadband services and communications same thing
also for gps and and and knowing where you are also there could be the availability of making
available images from space that could help inform soil use conservation use land rights or
even or other issues that need to be addressed in society and so if we make the right choices space
could benefit everybody including people that don't go into space or if we make what i would in
my opinion consider to be wrong set of course choices it could be space is only for a privileged
few and only benefits a privileged few and then that that is not a future that i think is going
to be uplifting of as many people as possible and so i would say for space first step is we learn
by doing this is this is new territory this is this is one of the things where you know particularly
for for trying to map out the space and pun not intended map out this area we're going to have to do
practices that that actually show a new way forward that show a better way forward and illuminate
a way forward and i think that's going to be important and so i'd love to see projects involving
either broadband from space and nuclear security that that's a good question i was going to say
well i think the first of the nuclear security is is you have to have communication so i would again
go back to can space provide broadband from space can it provide images from space that are useful
in terms of nuclear security it could very well be it could pick up you know could we pick up
signatures of those that are pursuing nuclear refinement or weaponization or things like that
and make that available to everybody so that actually is calling out those that would mean us harm
and so i think that there's a lot of opportunities in space is particularly when it comes to
nuclear security as a way to make it so that you know the the old ways of requiring people to be on the
ground for monitoring which would require access and then require a scheduled visit which of course
could be you can move whatever you were doing before the scheduled visit shows up maybe we could
actually move beyond that and not require people on the ground not the hat require scheduled visits
but instead have a persistent way of monitoring those who would pursue nuclear devices in ways
that are harmful to the planet wow yeah that's very correct the communication is the is key like
having communication satellites and feeding us information is really very important and some
countries that don't have their satellites can always link up to those that do have doubts that
the space has held great opportunities for us to exchange information and also keep us aware
when there is any nuclear security bridge on the pipeline this takes me to the next point you
know technology has been so close to humans and it's also part of humans inventions as a way of
advancing in our in our space in which we find ourselves and we are coming so close i was reading
about the eco modernist manifesto written by Mike Selenberger and his colleagues and this kind of
brings me to the kind of kind of thoughts that humans are becoming more advanced that we tend to
leave those traditional ways of doing things there is a kind of large rural to urban migration people
are getting close to opportunities in urban urban places and this kind of paints a picture of a new
world that is coming up and it's going to come to a point where i was watching a movie where somebody
that engineered a robot and AI got to a point where he could not control it because the AI has
learned so much to know to be self aware and know when harm is coming its way so i wonder like at
what point do we need to decouple or continue in this nexus of humans and technology can you give
us some light like i mean like i wonder like how will a machine or a robot i bought to aid my
life or living come to be a source of harm to me like it brings me to a point where i kind of wonder
like at what point should we call it okay at this point let's say okay this there should be a decoupling
a separation from humans and technology or like keep it in the right full place so that we don't get
to it to harm's way yeah that's a very good question i mean like if you had the out you know if you
had the if you had the foresight would you would you try to avoid pursuing a certain technology and i
think that that's a really hard question but you you're absolutely right that that we actually had
a we had an event and a discussion that's available on our website with the geotext center about the
risk of what's called autonomous systems paired with artificial intelligence and so you know artificial
intelligence by itself does not necessarily always have freedom of action it could be it could be a
recommendation system for humans but humans still in the loop or require a human to take action but
is providing advice but it's not you know i'm not necessarily say i would say the ai that we know
now is self-aware but it can it can it can make estimations and predictions that are useful to
human if the humans in the loop then at the same time there's this thing called autonomy or autonomous
systems that operate independent of human action and you can have autonomous systems that do not have
artificial intelligence and they're just following what's been told explicitly to them to do or you
can have autonomous systems that are paired with artificial intelligence and that gets interesting
because now you're not being explicit to them as to what to do you may be in fact you will have to
be explicit as to what the overall goal is but you're not telling them exactly how to get there and
what the ai in this case a subset of ai called machine learning is doing is attempting to optimize
towards that goal in an autonomous fashion and there are some people that that that say there there may
have been a case where a drone that was autonomous that was using artificial intelligence specifically
computer vision was used to hunt down someone and actually in africa that's just one example of
of of of of it being used in a complex situation and that raises very interesting questions should
should a should we be able to use autonomous systems paired with ai on the battlefield to to
track people down and nor possibly cause cause them harm and i would say interesting enough the same
approach to nuclear deterrence may be may be necessary here in the autonomous and ai space which is
what can we do to to deter people to make it expensive to pursue to make it so that if you are
pursuing it we see it if you do on a battlefield we call it out but we shouldn't be completely naive
either which is a world in which these systems don't exist that that if we if we try to put a ban
on autonomous and ai technologies which which i think could be useful but we should also recognize
that that that such a ban would mean that anyone who rolled it out with and with no one else being
prepared could actually cause harm and so we're going to have to think about some deterrence strategy
similar to nuclear that discourages bad actors from using autonomous systems with ai to harm others
is really interesting and it's very pertinent for us to understand that this ai systems need to be
really really have some level of governance and it's very important what you've said and the
autonomous system must be under control and prevented from getting to the hands of those that
might use it to to harm the generality of people so yeah so you've really brought a new view of the
present and the future that we are expecting you told us of possibilities of the human mind and how
you have also navigated and brought your organization to for you got formed in the midst of fire and
i am beginning to imagine that if you have survived getting formed in the fire it's just like
looking at what the blacksmith does you know when the fire when the iron goes into the into the fire
it gets that's when it gets beating into shape into the shape and the form in which it is desired
so i am beginning to imagine that the geotech center has been beating into shape and form through the
covid dystopia if i may say so i you have really demonstrated the great level of wit and
understanding of the situation in which we are you have told us a lot about nuclear security and how
we can monitor it from space you have also communicated very wisely in a very vast and
expansive way and i would say that my listeners to just bask in the expanse of information and
knowledge you have really given to us and this brings me to the point of how you have actually
grown to this level of so much depth of understanding and knowledge and so much information about the
useful facts we should know to survive in the world today like i kind of wonder like what kind of
things has helped you to becoming who you are at this point dr david oh that's a well i i'm
when i'm humbled and thank you and too that's that's a that's a that's a great question i guess i'd say
if i'm if i'm able to do anything it's it's first and foremost a huge credit to my parents my dad was
a methodist minister my mom was a school teacher and and and i think that that that that inspired me
to to also strive to serve and make a difference in the lives of others and and to be uh um you know
try to try to try to try to at least give more back to the world than than i received and i i did
receive a lot because that next thing i would say after that thanks to my parents was um i just happened
to have a fortunate case of i encountered mentors along the way uh there was a uh dr bill jeffrey
who at the time was at a place called the institute for defense analyses um later on in my life he was
the CEO of sanford research institute sri and and recently um um transitioned to additional role after
that um that did just sort of cultivated a native and natural curiosity about how things work but even
more importantly not just how they worked but what we could do about it like what can we do with
this what does that enable the art of the possible um also had and had colleagues with with the bio
terrace and prepare a response program i was just fortunate enough that i that i was working for
the government at a very early age because of because of my ability with computers again cultivated
thanks to my mentors along the way working with the bio terrace and program in 2000 2001 responded
to the events of 9 11 um and actually was was a lead part of the technology role for the bio
terrace and program um and then also uh spend time in afghanistan and i would say so so those
positive experiences but i would also say you know i've been in circumstances where i've seen
bad things happen i've had bad things happen i've had um and i think if anything we sometimes
we sometimes miss that we are a product not only of the the good things that happen in the goals
but also our choices when when not so great things happen or bad things happen do we choose to be
a victim of the circumstance or do we choose to find a way to find goodness in it and and to find
something that makes us able to be better and and give better as a result and so um i often say
i've lived a varied life um and i i feel very um humbled by the friends i've made along the way
um and and and i've also chosen a difficult one in that i'm an intentionally a person that tries to be
nonpartisan which which i know in the united states and i'm sure elsewhere in the world too there
where there are representative forms of government is hard that doesn't mean i'm neutral in my opinion
but it means i try to build bridges amongst shared values that are that are values led first
as opposed to the flag that's being flown first and so whether it's someone that's in the same
country as mine that has a value set someone outside in a different country that has the same
value set obviously we're connecting because we both care about nuclear security and in square
which has brought us together too um i try to be a bridge builder um and again that doesn't mean
i don't have values i i have very strong values but i identify with people with values first versus
some easy mental shortcut which is what flag or what pin you're wearing um i think it's very keen
to actually do that and and i think we still need those bridge builders even though it's not always
an easy path to pick that's really great i sincerely appreciate like you've taken us through
a very important aspect of your life how you got to the level in which you are and so many people
who are coming up in the world don't know how to get by over some things like some challenges come
their way and they like begin to question the situation brings me to the last question i want
to ask you and dr david i wonder like looking at africa and the position in which we are both in
terms of nuclear and also technology in general and geotech and how your organization like what
kinds of opportunities or challenges or how do you think we should best approach having experience
from maybe some visit you may have had to some developing or some maybe low resource areas i wonder
like what your view and what your what the approach you think will best meet or like emancipating
people from the slime if you may say right well no it is a big well first i'd be interested in
your thoughts and then i'll jump into but i mean i really appreciate the question meet do you mind
going with first with your thoughts and then i'll chime in too i'd like to hear from you okay well
we live in a very traditional society and in africa we are very communal in the way we do things and
the western culture it's somehow it comes both with the good and the shocking part i wouldn't say
bad but i would say shocking you know because there's this lifestyle of although independence that
the western culture has brought you know where people gets to like be on their own for a very long
time and this has been infiltrating in the lifestyle as well and also affecting the society so
people tend to be more traditional more communal you know it's very normal for somebody to say that it
takes a village to bring up a child and when bringing up a child you know the person gets to mingle with
the society you can get your neighbor and discipline in your child without getting any kind of
rebel from the parents in the olden time but these days it's becoming the other way this means a
lot i know i wouldn't want to dive into the diversity and the dynamics of these kinds of things
but in my opinion i think that the people should solve their problems in the unique way in which
they feel and sometimes and some challenges just comes as kind of something that is brought hey you
must respond to this and this makes africa seem to be the people that always live frog you know there is no
natural progression of how maybe learning from experience of technology or process
of how things should go like the climate change for example you know africa i don't think should be
worried about climate change because there are other more pressing issues like meeting the basic
needs you know rather than worrying about climate change like i had a guest that said that even if
we triple our current energy resource like from fossil and we continue using the way we are using
we contribute less than two percent to the climate worries you know so i i kind of think that
it's a unique environment in africa and we are very much communal and very warm
hathed if i may say sorry maybe i might be too biased in that regard but there are other warm people
are also warm in every other area but i kind of feel this aspect should be considered when
talking about african issues and yeah i mean like if there is anything that technology does it
should also impact the social aspects like the social lifestyle should be considered and then
i know that culture evolves you know the way we did things before is not the way we should do it now
and it won't be the way we will be doing it in the future so but it's kind of a complex mix but
my own basic understanding is that we have a way of a common way of doing things and i think this
should be considered in in in things maybe when we are adopting western cultures or western technology
or or ideals that might be coming from the west so yeah right back to you i think i think that's very
well said and i would agree i mean my i've had the fortunate opportunity to be uh i was in i had an
opportunity to travel and and actually work for a little bit in gana briefly in bikino faso and also
south africa wow and so i i your your your observations match what i what i saw too which is
very very warm and genuine and and friendly people and i would say common humanity and and and my wife
also she she had she spent some time in kinya as well and has very fun memories still there
and so um so uh and i know several colleagues here in the states that come from africa that i
considered be friends as well and i i've you know through through the through the connectivity of the
internet i've continued to have conversations with people and so i would say you know again i'm
probably not the person to give the the the solutions for for africa i would probably be the
absolute wrong person but i would say i can i can help provide some questions i can help provide
some some knowledge i would say climate change is clearly going to happen and i do worry that it's
going to it's going to hit those who were less responsible for it harder than those who were
responsible for for some of the contributions which is not exactly fair um and so we may need
to think some about the governance questions which is you know i for example i have colleagues in
brazil and i was actually talking to them about and i and i and this was several years ago and it
now seems like there are some pilot projects where could you know could countries in europe for
example or here in the united states or north america those that want to see brazil maintain its
its rainforest could they actually have a lease where they pay parts of brazil not to cut down
the rainforest at a amount that is more than the value that that brazil would gain if they did
cut it down so that way there's an economic incentive to do that um because i think that
that's the only way we're going to really be sort of approaching some sense of fairness because
otherwise for us to say well you can't cut that down or you can't you can't do that um when in fact
you know 150 to 250 years ago the industrial era in europe and the united states advanced because
we did do um you know resource cultivation and things like that it seems a little bit disingenuous
and so we've got to figure out ways to align interest um and and think about us as holistically
as a planet connected together and i think that's where i probably africa has a lot to share
the world on those views and i look forward to learning more i think i think the diplomatic
guys will give a better answer because they always stand on the neutral ground you know there you go
yeah yeah so it's it's such an amazing and um very insightful and informative and very enriching
and like to interact with such an erudite person as you dr bray david i really appreciate the time
and the the the demand in which you you took to explain the issues and surrounding africa and also
the nuclear security and also um human capacity in general i sincerely appreciate the time with you
and i hope that we can have some time to talk again in the future of course i'm really glad
we connected i'm really glad we connected through in square um thank you for for wonderful questions
and your views as well and uh hope we can continue to connect and similarly um if you do get to travel
and you're passing through um happy to host you for a lunch or a meal my friend i really appreciate
this conversation thanks i appreciate that too have a good day sir all right