1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,000 • little Exercise • little 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,000 indirectly 3 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,000 さん oso cider 4 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,000 tack 5 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,000 suffun 6 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,000 folk 7 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,000 been 8 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,000 the 9 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:07,100 2011 Realm and 2018 nd the Book Oil to Cash fighting the resource course. 10 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:13,300 kash TransFast edisyon 2015 nd it holds a PhD and MSE from the University of London School 11 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:19,860 of Oriental and African Studies SOS and a BA from Tufts University listen and get inspired 12 00:01:19,860 --> 00:01:25,440 and get more information on what energy in Africa entails and what is really needed 13 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:32,140 d tror 14 00:01:32,140 --> 00:01:34,820 c 15 00:01:34,820 --> 00:01:36,020 spr accommodating 16 00:01:36,020 --> 00:01:38,860 don 17 00:01:38,860 --> 00:01:46,180 100 18 00:01:46,180 --> 00:01:49,360 Me chun blay. 19 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,060 작neu glanan kan. 20 00:01:52,060 --> 00:01:54,920 do po mo jibay paa li agungi thay. 21 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,320 Simar amend Coast Nel Nire k olmak ni faklingtransrest؛ 22 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,240 Sa mat grandparents gawain wa characterize to 23 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,380 filli o mo kawain an d pies easing. 24 00:02:03,380 --> 00:02:05,460 Dek da geni llui Wat do kologicang jling. 25 00:02:05,460 --> 00:02:07,560 There you a steadyiest reauske. 26 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,920 hillis. 27 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:12,160 Baconuer mtafal qeay the define uk, 28 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,600 Hilte. 29 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:49,760 kke predominantly. refugees are very important to you and your activities in Africa. 對 the 30 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,760 previous interview you had with Robert Bryce 對 31 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,680 that you call you consider yourself a A 32 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:03,440 kind of African junkie. It's kind of exciting and interesting to know you know. 33 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:09,420 descriptive 34 00:03:09,420 --> 00:03:12,340 last 35 00:03:12,340 --> 00:03:16,680 last 36 00:03:16,860 --> 00:03:22,740 side 37 00:03:22,740 --> 00:03:25,240 last 38 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,100 side 39 00:03:28,100 --> 00:03:31,100 last 40 00:03:31,100 --> 00:03:35,440 meconshu 41 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,080 aa 42 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:45,620 wo 43 00:03:45,620 --> 00:03:52,000 ek 44 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:58,660 ację 45 00:03:58,660 --> 00:04:02,140 Spee 46 00:04:02,140 --> 00:04:05,180 Ina 47 00:04:05,180 --> 00:04:06,060 ары os wide wther 48 00:04:06,060 --> 00:04:06,920 ga 49 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:07,280 western 50 00:04:07,100 --> 00:04:09,320 jul 51 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,520 w this 52 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,260 That day 53 00:04:13,260 --> 00:04:16,460 for a 54 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:17,700 workout 55 00:04:17,740 --> 00:04:20,340 not 56 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,140 an 57 00:04:24,180 --> 00:04:27,180 So 58 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:31,640 day 59 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:32,940 It and 60 00:04:32,940 --> 00:04:34,020 was 61 00:04:34,020 --> 00:04:57,180 beş dan 팬�ade ak y sinks de扇 en si syem boths e feis growth hub 62 00:04:57,940 --> 00:04:58,220 n 63 00:04:58,260 --> 00:05:02,020 z filming current j Hindak 64 00:05:02,060 --> 00:05:03,300 jtal camp 65 00:05:02,620 --> 00:05:13,420 growth hub, we're a non-profit research network that tries to use data and evidence to help make energy 66 00:05:13,420 --> 00:05:21,100 policies more effective and the idea is that every person on the planet and every economy 67 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:28,220 around the world needs affordable, reliable electricity at scale. We can't have a lot of jobs, 68 00:05:28,220 --> 00:05:58,220 는 69 00:06:28,220 --> 00:06:29,760 δ compelled impair dancer 70 00:06:30,540 --> 00:06:32,200 stell bounced 71 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,060 槳 72 00:06:54,020 --> 00:06:55,400 outlined 73 00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:16,240 that there is very variance in two different look like the political points and therefore 74 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:24,880 new innovation in distributed renewable energies bringing some lights to some very remote places 75 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:31,360 which I am very very sure your organization is very much involved in capturing. So I wonder like 76 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:39,360 what's your kind of what have you in your experience with Africa what do you think is a 77 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,360 fundamental problem that should be tackled I will not say it's corruption because there is 78 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:50,880 corruption everywhere you know at different levels so what do you think that the people at the leadership 79 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:57,520 level or policy level if you may say need to do to actually tackle this challenge of the energy 80 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:03,120 need especially in Nigeria because I trust you've been in Nigeria you understand the the terrain and 81 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:10,240 perhaps the policy to some very very large extent so I wonder like if you have any insights that 82 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:17,520 the government or people listening to the postcards might be able to tap into sure so so Nigeria 83 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:24,960 is obviously incredibly important because of its size and its its its regional significance 84 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:32,160 it also Nigeria happens to be a country that is dealing with its electricity problem among the 85 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:40,800 worst in the world in fact if you if you correlate if you correlate income and electricity use it's 86 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,920 very very tightly correlated so rich countries consume a lot of electricity and poor countries 87 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:54,640 consume very little and the country that is furthest from the global trend line is Nigeria 88 00:08:54,640 --> 00:09:03,840 wow so Nigeria is you know the average Nigerian consumes something like 80% less electricity than 89 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:14,320 they should given their income which also is an indicator that the problem of electricity is a major 90 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:22,640 constraint on Nigeria's growth because it's not even using enough electricity given where it is 91 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:30,560 in income and obviously Nigeria wants to become much richer so really we have pretty strong evidence 92 00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:37,920 that energy and income move together and Nigeria is a place where where that energy is really a big 93 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:44,960 big constraint now what's the solution to Nigeria's energy problem yeah I think that the starting 94 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:52,240 point and that what the point I would want to make for your for your audience is that we expect 95 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:58,720 there is no one solution right so we expect a lot of different things from the energy sector so one 96 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:07,440 you mentioned lighting for rural lighting or for small energy uses there are now lots of technological 97 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:15,760 options you know off-grid solar is a really important and useful solution for certain kinds of energy 98 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:22,960 and at the same time if you're building a factory in Lagos you know a small solar system is just not 99 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:31,200 going to cut it yeah so you you know really if you're trying to tackle the energy needs of a country 100 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:37,600 you need to look at the full spectrum everything from basic lighting for the very poor all the way up to 101 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:44,560 large industrial uses you know Nigeria's the Nigerian population is online Nigeria is going to need 102 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:51,040 data centers you're going to need air conditioning you're going to need you know office buildings 103 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:56,800 you're going to need all of the things of a modern economy and you need the energy system to support 104 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:03,920 everything across that you know and just one analogy I often like to make is to transportation 105 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:10,560 right you also need a transportation system that can help move all the things you need in an economy 106 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:18,720 yeah and you know solar home systems are kind of like the bicycle of transportation a bicycle is very 107 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:25,760 cheap it's it's really useful for certain things it actually can be fun I ride a bicycle I love my 108 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:33,920 bicycle and but it's totally useless for hauling cargo across the country very good I so much 109 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:41,200 appreciate that analogy yeah solar being like a bicycle yeah yeah so you might need trucks or airplanes 110 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:47,120 so it's kind of pointless to say well bicycles are cheaper and cleaner than trucks it's like yes but they 111 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:53,760 they do different things the same is true in the energy sector very good I and that's a very wonderful 112 00:11:53,760 --> 00:12:03,280 analogy because the the whole energy scenario do I say the mini grid system seem to be more focused 113 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:11,440 on solar systems and people think that this will be the kind of opium do I say like the big solution 114 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:18,320 for it you know but it needs to be actually looked at in a whole spectrum form which you rightly said so 115 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:27,120 I want to say that truly and to those listening that solar and renewable energy solutions are really 116 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:34,880 good but they have their limits actually so I want to also ask you in addition to that because 117 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:42,160 when considering the energy systems and how to solve the electricity problem in in Africa and Nigeria 118 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:48,240 specifically we have different options and when you look at different regions of the continent like 119 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:55,840 in South Africa they depend a lot on coal in North Africa most of them use fossil sources to meet 120 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:02,480 their energy needs and in this part of the world Nigeria specifically we we depend on hydro and 121 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:10,160 thermal plants so and these these are well established ways of generating electricity but 122 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:18,080 there's one part that has been very much lagging behind do I say not yet much given the the needed 123 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:23,120 attention although governments are like showing some level of commitment but we're not seeing 124 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:30,560 the the drive to be as very drastic enough as some governments have done and that's the nuclear 125 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:36,480 aspect so you've been so much involved in energy in general and also electricity specifically 126 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:44,800 because I believe three-quarter of the of energy use is is is electricity so I want to focus more 127 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:51,920 on the electricity aspect in my discussion with you so we've been talking about nuclear technology 128 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:59,280 and how it affects the African continent so I wonder like given your organization and its dealings 129 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:05,840 I believe they have a section that deals with nuclear I wonder like what are the the the things you 130 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:11,920 think that need to be considered when countries in Africa are going nuclear or considering going 131 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:18,400 nuclear and do you think it has a place in the African energy scope both in the present and in 132 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:24,080 the long term because I want to like make an illustration take for example if we are told that 133 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:29,840 by in the next century that everybody should relocate to Africa Africa does not have the energy 134 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:35,680 to cater for everyone so I wonder like what do you think is the position of nuclear technology 135 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:46,000 considering the development and the future of this continent yeah so I think that traditional 136 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:54,880 large-scale nuclear power probably does not have a future in Africa I think the potential for 137 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:01,280 small modular reactors and some of the micro reactors and some of the other new technologies 138 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:10,960 that are coming to market I think that those have much much more likely application in in Africa 139 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:18,960 and I think we should be modest and say that you know first of all it's these these are technologies 140 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:27,040 that are still evolving quite quite rapidly and that we're if we're thinking on a long you know 141 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:35,440 on a on the next five to 25 years timeline that that there's we should be open to the idea of 142 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:41,760 nuclear we absolutely should not write it off which some people are ready to do but I think we 143 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:47,440 should remain open to it and we should see how the market evolves and how the technology evolves 144 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:55,040 in Africa we actually did a project with the the energy for growth hub did a project with a group 145 00:15:55,040 --> 00:16:03,280 in Washington DC called third way where we mapped every country of the world including in Africa 146 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:11,280 progress they're making to prepare for nuclear power and today just you know Egypt and South Africa 147 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:18,480 have have operating you know either have an operating power plant or Egypt has an operation 148 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:24,880 and Egypt is constructing yeah right exactly yeah but we did find seven other countries 149 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:34,880 that have taken really significant concrete steps where they could hypothetically be ready by 2030 150 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:42,320 which is not very far away that does include Nigeria these are countries that have already had 151 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:49,360 experience with at least a you know a research reactor they have kind of gone far down the line 152 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:56,720 with the IAEA process and maybe they've actually they're actually in very active discussions with foreign 153 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:03,680 with a foreign supplier and in a way that we think and we've got a methodology that you can see on 154 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:11,840 the website where we think it's plausible they could be ready by 2030 and then we found another 17 155 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:17,600 countries in Africa that have taken some preliminary steps we don't think they'll be ready 156 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:37,600 by 2030 but they could be ready by 2050 so I so I think the takeaway is really that Africa it seems to be some African countries seem to be quite serious about it and they're not just talking about it they're actually doing some of the steps to get ready so we should also be open to that to that possibility 157 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:45,600 wow that's really interesting I really hope that this happens in my lifetime I'm sorry if that sounds too much to me 158 00:17:45,600 --> 00:18:13,600 but like I'm considering the 2035 I think I should still be alive at that time why not yeah look I think you I think we will see we will we will see you know more nuclear reactors deployed in Africa but again going back to my earlier comment it's not like you know we want to get away from this like this is the solution to Africa's energy problems 159 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:25,600 in the same way that solar has a very important niche it's possible but it's not everything it's possible that nuclear could also have a very important niche but again it's it's obviously not going to be everything so I 160 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:43,120 we can I can be right to say that nuclear is part of the solution if I may say I think that's fair all right so now we I want to look at it in a very broad from we have the geothermal we have the wind we have solar we have hydro we have gas and 161 00:18:43,120 --> 00:19:09,120 in Nigeria for example this year has been declared a year of gas and the global climate change and climate action is calling for a move away from fossil fuels and I wonder because I think this is a very logical progression to meeting once energy need I think gas is a logical progression in my own thinking I wonder what you think in that regard but 162 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:37,120 the global call is like looking at a more drastic move away from using for seals I wonder how this resonates with you and how when you come to practical terms of actually what does work and what should be done is workable given the kind of prevailing conditions in which we are like building a gas plant that's that's that's we turn the turbine and generate electricity might be more easy to do 163 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:54,120 city might be more easily achievable than having a nuclear power plant which has not been proven like the SMRs have not been proven anywhere and has not been built anywhere though test places have been established in the US but I think might be easily 164 00:19:54,120 --> 00:20:23,120 achievable to get gas I mean plans to generate electricity because they already working already in some parts of the country or continent than having a new whole new technology except a very drastic measure is taken by the government and yet that takes me to the question of what do you think is the right logical step because I you said that solar is like the bicycle what should we what should be the like the bike like the automobile and then what should be the 165 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:52,120 maybe Lamborghini and maybe it was the the post on which one will be the Tesla truck like what's progression do you think in this given this energy sources yeah yeah so so look I think that all countries you know need to do two things one is they need to use the resources that they have and that's going to be very different in different places they will each follow their own path and the other is that 166 00:20:52,120 --> 00:21:21,120 nobody should be waiting for development for a new technology to develop so you know I obviously I'm optimistic about SMRs but I don't think any country should be putting industrialization or their energy plans on hold while they wait for for any technology whether it's SMRs or battery storage or whatever else it is so I do think that you know I do think that 167 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:43,120 you know again you know if you're talking about Ethiopia Ethiopia is obviously going to be mostly about hydro and they're going to have to fill in around that there'll be a combination of probably some off grid solar with with large scale hydro you know if you're lucky to have geothermal like Kenya you can build largely around geothermal which Kenya is doing 168 00:21:43,120 --> 00:22:00,120 they're also adding wind and solar and they'll also need a little bit of fill in you know right now it's with that with heavy oil plants hopefully they can convert that to gas and then maybe one day use either store you know storage or an SMR or something like that 169 00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:24,120 in Nigeria's case Nigeria like a lot of the it's West African neighbors such as Senegal or Ghana or Cote d'Ivoire they have a lot of gas and they are going to use it in the near term the interesting question is what happens when the gas starts to run out and when other technological options become become available 170 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:52,120 and also how does gas pair especially with solar and in place like Nigeria actually gas and solar go and here I'm talking about utility scale solar not small off grid solar but utility scale solar and gas gas fired power actually pair very well together for two reasons one gas can ramp up and down quite quickly 171 00:22:52,120 --> 00:23:21,120 so when the sun is shining you can turn off your gas plant and when it's not shining you can turn it back on I breathe technically it can do that but it's also that the finances of gas and solar are the opposite so solar is high upfront fixed costs and very low operating costs and gas is the opposite almost your entire gas cost not entirely but most of your gas cost is in the gas itself 172 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:38,120 so financially that means that you're not going to bankrupt the power of the gas plant when it's turned off because of because the solar is running that's actually a barrier for nuclear once you turn the nuclear and financial reasons 173 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:58,120 so actually nuclear a drawback of nuclear is that it doesn't pair that well with solar because of the financial and technical aspects gas actually does so that's going to be a real challenge for for Nigeria is to eventually transition off of gas onto cleaner sources 174 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:19,120 that's great so I since you talked about nuclear and solar I was about asking you about the LCOE because the light cost of electricity is I will say it's a little bit contextualized when you bring about you talk about LCOE in solar and wind and other renewable sources 175 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:48,120 and you want to compare it with the that of some more baseload sources you might want to consider some other niche areas or niche technologies or considerations so talking about the costs I will it might be more expensive to build a nuclear power plant than having a solar plant running because of some other myriads of consideration that's maybe brought to the table 176 00:24:48,120 --> 00:25:09,120 I want to also kind of bring you to talk a bit about this climate that climate action that is being on the front burner these days you know if you are some other people listening to me if you listen to the introduction of this podcast as the first episode I talked about 177 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:30,120 Africa not being should not be considered to worry about climate change because we should be worrying about other more existential challenges like we don't have energy let alone talking about the carbonizing our energy sources so I wonder like 178 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:46,120 what do you think should be the position of Africa in terms of generating its electricity although we have it's like a happenstance that we have we are we are in the time when we are talking about climate change so we should not just pay death yes to it but 179 00:25:46,120 --> 00:26:07,120 I wonder like what's your position in terms of generating our energy sources and the climate action what do you think should be the position because considering gas you know it's a fossil source and the climate guys will not say we not it will go down with them what do you think should be the most the best approach in this regard 180 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:28,120 yeah so so good questions first on your lco lco e cost comparison yeah it's really you really don't you really can't compare lco e across different technologies and you especially can't compare lco e of a dispatchable versus a non dispatchable source 181 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:47,120 so you know solar is almost certainly going to be the cheapest on an lco e basis in certain in certain places yeah and on that basis nuclear is going to have a really hard time competing but that's because you know nuclear nuclear runs all the time 182 00:26:47,120 --> 00:27:07,120 and solar does not so there's a value in that reliability and in that dispatch ability that you would want to capture again this is in thinking instead of thinking about one solution it's thinking about how all of the different technologies fit together to provide the energy services you need for your 183 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:23,120 for your economy so again I wouldn't just say well solar is cheaper than nuclear well if you need a 24 7 factory running you know or a mine it might turn out that actually nuclear is cheaper because you need it all the time you can't just turn it off 184 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:40,120 exactly the climate question is a really good one I actually think that Africa does need to worry about climate but it's mostly what Africa needs to worry about is adaptation rather than mitigation 185 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:56,120 so adaptation is what's the energy what are the energy needs that Africa is going to need in order to survive and thrive in the face of extreme weather rising temperatures and drought 186 00:27:56,120 --> 00:28:11,120 and if you think about Africa is going to need resilient infrastructure which is built with cement and largely with cement and steel both energy intensive is going to need air conditioning and cold storage again very very energy intensive 187 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:30,120 and it's going to need a lot of pumped pumped water and probably desalination which again is one of the most energy intensive technologies so the climate adaptation agenda in Africa is very energy intensive and is going to require a lot more energy 188 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:50,120 and on the mitigation side which is preventing emissions as of right now Africa really other than South Africa which is a coal based economy and is pretty high emission and relatively wealthy other than South Africa the rest of Africa is actually very low emissions 189 00:28:50,120 --> 00:29:10,120 right so so there's not that much CO2 to squeeze out of the economies and the question is what's the best path forward for Africa to build the energy systems it needs and there you know the average Nigerian 190 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:30,120 you know the average American where I'm sitting in the United States I'm producing the 33 times as much CO2 as the average Nigerian of course so it would be very very rich for me to you know rich and hypocritical for me to tell Nigerians that they should cut their emissions 191 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:49,120 well I'm at 33 times their levels so I think the issue is really around what are the what are the smartest most cost effective energy systems that Africa should be building both to tackle poverty to promote industrialization to make the country to make the region more prosperous 192 00:29:49,120 --> 00:30:14,120 so that it can both eliminate poverty it can create jobs and it can adapt to the climate challenges that that that the continent faces and and just one last point I'll make is that we did a back of the envelope calculation just to show how how this would matter and you know Africa has a ton of options as you mentioned a lot of geothermal 193 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:39,120 a lot of wind solar hydro resources all of that but if Africa only used gas and there's no there's no scenario where that would happen but if it only use gas and we tripled everyone's electricity consumption and we can snap our fingers and do it tomorrow that would add less than 1% of global carbon to global carbon 194 00:30:39,120 --> 00:31:01,120 wow so the more reason to worry less more reason to worry less very well put Jerry yeah so I am sorry I think our time is already but I want to ask you about this something that is very recent that we're reading about your work in energy for growth up and that's the modern energy minimum can you tell us a bit about this 195 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:18,120 sure sure I'll try to do this quickly so we you know we the UN and all countries have agreed to the sustainable development goals sustainable development goal number seven is to provide modern reliable sustainable and affordable energy to everyone by 2030 196 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:47,120 yeah it's a wonderful goal and with the metric that we're using to measure it is whether somebody has a household household electricity or not yeah and the measurement the consumption minimum for that is 50 kilowatt hours which you know me as an American I'll use that about two days but that's supposed to last in African a whole year yeah so we thought okay that's the first step on the energy ladder you know 50 kilowatt hours everyone should have 197 00:31:47,120 --> 00:32:13,120 enough electricity for lights at home yeah and the we brought together a group to think okay what is the next step on the energy ladder if we got to get everybody a 50 what's next and so we propose something we call the modern energy minimum and it's instead of 50 it's a thousand kilowatt hours and it also covers both electricity use at home and in the wider 198 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:35,120 economy so you know the metric is only at home and it's only 50 but the majority of electricity is not used at home it's actually used in industry commerce out in the rest of the economy so we've moved that up to a thousand we're now starting to talk to the UN and others about integrating this into a future iteration of SDG number 199 00:32:35,120 --> 00:33:03,120 wow it's great thank you so much for this expose and I sincerely appreciate I'm just one more last one just one month I know this past because I've been wondering like you spending so much time in Africa and still interested in being in Africa after this covid crisis I wonder like what has been your motivation and like what has been your like what has been like energizing you to stay on in in the continent 200 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:21,120 I mean like what's keeping you going on here you know many young people in Africa especially Nigeria want to want to take the next available flight out of the continent or the country so but I mean yeah see here keeping it going so like can you 201 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:48,120 look like it's kind of that's sort of a hard you know hard hard question to answer I think that I have been motivated you know to stay working on Africa by two things one is is just that I feel like the misunderstandings that the west you know I've lived in the UK and worked in the UK and in the in the US feel like the western understanding of Africa is still so wrong and 202 00:33:48,120 --> 00:34:11,120 interesting that I want to contribute toward you know treating you know creating positive relationships between between my country and places like Ghana and Kenya as more as a more normal international relationship not this we're going to help you and you should be grateful but look we're sovereign nations 203 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:28,120 we're different countries we can achieve a lot if we cooperate and we treat each other with mutual respect as interesting and I feel that you know I can contribute toward normalizing those relationships and doing it in a in a way that's far more productive and more respectful 204 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:57,120 that's the kind of high minded one yeah the the the personal one is look when you you know when you work with other cultures you develop personal relationships and I just have so many you know absolutely wonderful friends who who are African live and work in the continent and I just really enjoy working with with so many wonderful people and that's the real reason I stick with it is the people 205 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:14,120 that's very great very great thank you so much I sincerely appreciate that okay thank you Jerry yeah so thank you for the time I sincerely appreciate I hope we'll have more time because it's like very very short time with you so I appreciate the time together yeah