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joshtern university in Washington D.C.
His scientific expertise is in radiation biology, cancer epidemiology, and public health.
He is a board certified in public health by the National Board of Public Health Examiners.
He served on the National Council on Radiation Protection NCRP from 2003 to 2019.
He chairs the joshtern university radiation safety committee.
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radiations biology, particularly ways to make therapeutic radiation, radiation therapy more effective in treating cancer, but also in protecting people against the harmful effects of radiation, which also this happens to be primarily cancer.
So I've worked in a lot of radiation areas that are relevant to health my entire career. And so I've noticed that the public has a tremendous fear of radiation and very, very little understanding of radiation.
And this became very apparent to me at the time of the Fukushima accident because I was being called on for the media to answer some questions about the health impacts of the Fukushima accident in Japan.
And I noted that the reporters, the journalists who were interviewing me didn't even know about enough about radiation to ask a question.
They couldn't even formulate a question. So they were often asking me to give them questions they could ask me.
So I thought, you know, this is a really dangerous level of ignorance.
And so I guess I'm not in that boat because I'm a nuclear engineer.
Yeah, right. You're not in that boat, but there are very few nuclear engineers out there. So that was the major reason that I thought about writing a book.
I'd actually looked for a book that would be intelligible to the general public. And intelligible, I mean, not full of jargon and scientific terminology and graphs and equations because I was scared of people off.
And I really couldn't find such a thing.
So that's how I'm getting the book.
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess I guess you've already delved into the next part of the question I want to ask you.
What I want to ask you is based on this book you've written.
It's it's it's a very from the soft copy I have.
It's about 507 pages of book, including the front cover.
And when I was reading this book, it was like a page turner.
Like, I didn't know when I was like already on the Fukushima page, you know, even though it took me like, I think from the time we met about one week between then and now, like, and I'm already far into the book.
So it makes me wonder like the way you took so much time to dissolve the complicated aspect and you did not feel it with any kind of formulas or technical details that will make people begin to look for another book to explain what it means.
It was so so easy to understand.
And I think the African community will also be very much interested and comfortable with this kind of book.
So I wouldn't know maybe in the future we can talk about how we can collaborate to make an adaptation of this kind of book for the community in which I am.
So that takes me to the next question.
What is this book about, Professor?
Okay, so what I was trying to achieve with this book is to try to, as you say, explain things in straightforward language that people could understand, but also to put it in story form so that they would remember what they're, what they're.
You know, you tend to remember things in your life or things that you've read when it's in the context of a story.
So most of the science I already knew, you know, from a lifetime of working in the field.
I knew the science and I also knew that there were some interesting stories associated with some of the discoveries.
And so I basically, I basically had that idea that I would take some particular thing like let's say what is radioactivity and match that with a story about how radioactivity was taught.
Radioactivity was discovered and what they thought it was, you know.
And so that was the format, the strategy.
So the strategy of the book is to, you know, start out with what radiation is.
So there's part one, like it's called radiation 101, the basics.
So there's about three or four chapters about that.
And in that, I try to present enough radiation physics so that people will have the working knowledge of what radiation is.
The second part of the book is more about the health implications, health implications and how radiation causes these health implications.
And then the last part of the book was to take practical situations like nuclear power plant accidents, cell phones.
The risk and benefits, yeah.
The risk and benefits and how to decide for yourself whether the risks are worth the benefits or vice versa.
And so I put some techniques in there like number needed to harm, for example, and number needed to treat, which is that these are two metrics of benefits and showing how you could do this simple calculations yourself and make these kind of decisions.
So the kind of the goal was is not to tell people like, you know, because people ask me all the time, are cell phones safe?
Yeah.
So I just, the goal was to say, well, this is, this is the information about cell phones, you decide if they're safe, you know.
And the same thing with chest x-rays and mammograms and things like that.
So because I think if, you know, if people do not understand the reasoning behind what you're saying, first of all, they may not trust what you're saying.
But also I think when they arrive at the conclusion on their own, they feel empowered, you know.
They're not, they're not beholding the sum expert to guide them.
They've made this decision on their own.
So that was, that was kind of the strategy of the book.
And so I hope throughout I don't ever tell anybody what they should do.
But I tell them what are the important radiation parameters they need to know to make a decision about radiation in their lives, whatever that happens to be, whether they're living next to a nuclear power plant, they're going to get a mammogram, they're buying a cell phone, whatever they're doing.
You know, so that was, that was basically the strategy.
That's, that's very impressive, Professor.
And to say the least or to add to that, you made an analogy about electricity and the origin of electricity in that book.
When, when the electricity was coming up, people were afraid of it and they were wondering what it was.
And I can remember back in the years, I used to be cautious about having to use some electronic devices, thinking it will have some negative effects on me.
And I think this is a similar fear that people have, not just in the developing world in general.
And you made a quote about Julius Caesar that people fear what they don't know.
And that is what can be used to control them.
And thank you for making this book a reality to quell a lot of fears because if there is any main thing that people are against.
When you talk about constructing new nuclear power plants, especially in this part of the world, it's either out of ignorance or out of fear.
So these two things, ignorance and fear of the unknown, is what is keeping people away.
And thank you for making this book available to make people know what they need to know and take acceptable or known risk and reap the benefit in it.
So you have answered some part of the questions I want to ask.
So you have already said why you wrote the book and why you wrote it the way you did so that it can resonate with the people.
And was there anything in particular you wanted people to get out of this book?
Because you knew that people needed to have this kind of information.
So what is your hope that people after they read this book that they will be able to...
What kind of action do you want them to take or what kind of position do you want them to assume if I may say?
Well, I think my goals are even broader than just radiation.
So what I detect in the world today is...
And I'm talking about people that are people that push it out of their lives as being not relevant to their lives.
Hello, Professor.
Hello.
Please, can you come back again? Can you just ask?
You said...
Yeah, it's always breaking, I'm sorry.
Oh, it's breaking.
Okay, no, I was saying that it's an unfortunate attitude about many people, people who should know better to think that science is irrelevant to their lives.
That somehow it's not something they studied in school, it's not important to them and if they need any scientific thing, they'll just get it from an expert.
And I think that that's a dangerous attitude.
And so what I hope is that people in reading books, that book and other books like it will come to the realization that you don't have to be a scientist to have interest in scientific matters and to understand some of these scientific concepts.
And to basically empower people to realize that there's no... this is not some kind of coded esoteric information, this is relevant information that's relevant to their lives.
And if they don't understand some of these things, they're not going to make the decisions that impact their lives.
So if you're... in other words, for example, just to use radiation, if you're overly afraid of radiation, you'll avoid chest x-rays, you'll avoid radiation therapy, you'll avoid scanners at airport, all of these things that will actually increase your risk.
So I hope that people realize that science is accessible, even things that they consider to be too complicated for them to understand, that's not true.
It's only been complicated because many scientists speak in code, they speak in the code of jargon, they speak in the code of mathematics, and so people are intimidated by that.
But you'll notice there's very little mathematics in the book, there are no charts or graphs in the book, everything is explained in terms of dialogue because that's the way we communicate.
For example, in this podcast, we don't even have an option of showing people graphs or pictures or something like that, equations are off the table.
If I'm going to explain anything in a podcast, I have to do it with words, right?
And the good news is you can do a lot with words, you don't need all of them in the math and equations and things like that.
Very very correct. Professor, I'm so grateful for that. Easy, easy, I would say, explanation of such a very nice compendium of knowledge you have packaged for the world.
So I want to ask you, since you have given us this book as a way of dissolving our doubts about radiation and letting us know what we should know,
I want to ask you just one question about the health implication. Should we really worry about radiation and how it impacts our health?
Should we really worry about it?
I mean, like... Well, I mean, I think it's a pretty broad question, right?
So if you're going to ask me, should we worry about nuclear weapons? I'd say yes, yes, we're going about nuclear weapons.
If you're going to say, should we worry about cell phones? I would say no, don't worry about cell phones, you know.
So, you know, it's not... it depends on the magnitude of the radiation, the benefits and the uncertainties.
So it's a nuanced answer and that's what I was trying to get at in taking the six different situations, you know, like radon.
I don't know if you have a trouble with radon in Nigeria there. Do you have radon issues in Nigeria?
I think they are there in the papers but it has not become a public issue yet.
But when I've been a nuclear engineer, I've read papers about radon in buildings and stuff like that.
But it has not the rules to become a public issue. But yeah, we have them.
Let me use that as an example. In the eastern United States, so you find radium in the soil wherever there is uranium.
Because it's part of the decay process.
And so radon is the only element in that decay chain that's a gas.
And as a gas, it comes up through the soil.
So if you happen to... it's a radioactive gas and if you happen to build your house on a spot where this gas is leaking out, then your house is full of radon.
And in the United States, we've spent a lot of time trying to rid our houses of radon and a lot of money.
And the truth of the matter is that the risks of radon are in term...
And the only thing that radon is known to cause is lung cancer.
The risks from radon for lung cancer are so small compared to the risks of lung cancer from smoking.
And to make things worse, that if you smoke, you are more sensitive to the effects of radon.
So basically, if there was no smoking in the world, we would not have a radon problem.
We wouldn't even be talking about it.
It increases the risk, we would say.
It increases the risk. And if there is no smoking, the risk is so low as not to even be considered.
So this is what I mean by a practical situation.
So what should we put our efforts in?
Should we put our efforts in eliminating radon and letting everybody smoke?
Or should we put our efforts into eliminating smoking and forget about the radon?
And the fact is that smoking not only causes lung cancer, it causes all other types of heart disease.
Everything you can think of is exacerbated by the smoking.
So to me, it makes no sense to allow people to not allow, but to put all our public health effort at eliminating radon while there is smoking going on.
So once we conquer the smoking, we can worry about the radon.
So that's what I mean in terms, you know, even in my own life, my niece, who is, you know, she's in her mid-20s.
She has not read my book, by the way.
But in the middle of the night, she has radon issues at her house.
The fan in her basement that's supposed to clear out the airs to keep the radon levels down, it broke in the middle of the night.
And so at three in the morning, she's calling saying, should I evacuate the house?
Should I get out of the house?
And the answer, of course, is no.
No, you know, just go back to sleep and worry about it later.
But, you know, I feel like if she had read my book, she wouldn't even have asked that question.
So that's what I mean.
These are practical decisions that people are making every day, you know?
And she doesn't need to call or have a radiation expert as an uncle, basically.
You know, I mean, she just needs to be a little more versed in the science and public health policies regarding radiation.
And that's kind of a goal.
Wow, that's really like enlightening to get to know about radon and how it impacts our health and everything about it.
Professor, this book is such a great explainer of complexity.
I would say it has ubiquity, fantasy, intuition, creativity, everything compiled in it.
I really admire the style that you have used to write it.
And I hope that we can get some benefits.
Although you said that the copyright is not in your hands to control.
But I hope that you can help us with some copies of this book in Africa.
I hope that you can give us the benefit of having to be in touch with you.
Please, to get some copies of this book.
I will speak to the publisher about those possibilities and perhaps put the publisher in contact with you.
Thank you very much.
We really sincerely appreciate this kind gesture if it comes through.
So in a way of coming to because we have a very short time in this episode.
And I hope that you can please come on again because we have a whole lot.
You've talked about the security aspect, you've talked about the power aspect.
These are the different parts that I would like to discuss with you because your area of research and not just the book and your expertise touches in these different parts that are very, very important for us to consider.
So but at this point, I just want to ask you like in what kind of state of mind were you when you were writing this book?
Like I wonder like what routine did you adopt to be able to conceptualize and also finish this book in total?
I don't know.
Okay, so there was an actual schedule that I had.
So, you know, as I said, the Fukushima accent was the impetus for me to start writing this book.
And I wrote a couple of chapters and showed it to some publishers and I got a lot of interest in it.
But one of the things was that we thought, well, you know, there'll be a lot of attention on the subject of radiation again at the five year anniversary of Fukushima.
Everyone, you know, on anniversaries, people tend to revisit things in the past.
You know, like we just had a 30 year anniversary of Chernobyl not long ago, you know, and so then a lot of attention comes.
And so they thought they wanted the book to be out to come out coincident with the five year anniversary of Fukushima.
So that put me under a lot of pressure to get it done quickly.
And so I kind of knew all the topics that I thought I wanted to cover.
I organized them into what I thought was a logical scientific sequence and I started ripping through them one chapter at a time.
And like I said, I was focusing on those aspects of radiation physics that were relevant to health.
You know, so for example, I don't think you'll find anything about neutrinos.
We were talking about neutrinos earlier in the book because nobody has any health effects from neutrinos for reasons that we don't need to get into now.
But so there's no discussion about neutrinos in the book.
So I ended to focus on things like alpha particles and gamma rays and things like that.
So the goal was always to explain radiation in terms of what was relevant to people's everyday lives.
And so I just, you know, it ended up a little different than I thought it would in the beginning.
But I think in the end, you know, I got a lot of feedback.
Every chapter of the book was I had a peer review.
And so it was pre-reviewed by at least one or two people because I wanted to get the science right.
And then I also had it read by a lot of non-scientists because I didn't, I wanted them to assure me that the science wasn't so dense that they were getting lost.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
So I did it as an iterative process like that.
You know, it's a balance like you need enough science to tell the story, but you don't want there to be so much science that you lose the storyline.
So that was basically the strategy.
And so it was a lot more work than I thought.
Maybe.
And I was under pressure because of this deadline.
But you know, sometimes deadlines are good because if you don't have a deadline, things tend to drag on.
So that was the driving force, that deadline that the publisher said.
Maybe a second edition might be in the pipeline.
Well, actually, rather than the sec, this is interesting because back to electricity.
So, you know, I use stories, some stories about electricity in the book to compare with radiation.
And my assumption in doing that was that people knew more about electricity than they did about radiation.
Okay, so what I found out though is that isn't necessarily true, you know.
And it's funny because the Museum of Natural History in New York has a magazine that's simply called Natural History.
And they had wanted to publish an expert, not an expert, an excerpt, an excerpt of the book in their magazine as an article.
And so the publisher contacted me and told me that they wanted to do.
And I said, I'm fine with that.
So when they, I didn't know what part of the book they were going to take.
But they sent me a copy of the magazine when it was out.
And the part that they chose had nothing to do with radiation.
They took a part about electricity and they published that.
So the publisher said to me, you know, people are really interested in electricity.
Would you write a book about electricity?
So first I was a little reluctant.
But I said, okay, I'll try the same thing with electricity.
And in fact, that book will be done now and it will be out November.
So my next book is not a new edition of Strange Glow.
It's actually a book about electricity.
It's called Spark, the electricity of life and the life of electricity.
And it's also published by Princeton University Press.
And it follows the same kind of story explanation of.
So it explains what electricity is and the health risks of it and the health benefits of it in the same kind of style that Strange Glow does for radiation.
So, yeah.
Thank you for giving us a foretaste of what is in the line.
Okay.
And yeah, so that's the story.
So look for that in November.
Yeah, sure. Okay. So just this one last question, Professor, before you can give your final remarks and hopes of you coming back again.
Like, do you think and do you think that your book has changed or in any way affected the perceptions about radiation?
And do you think there should be a way of feedback mechanism to facilitate this kind of thing?
Yeah, I mean, so I have a yes, I do think it's influenced a lot of people because people have told me so.
Okay.
I, I, you know, I have a the book has a website and and there's a contact page on there.
Yeah.
And I'm frequently contacted by people who tell me that, you know, that the book has somehow transformed them in one way or another.
You know, a lot of times people will say things like, well, I knew a little bit about.
Radiation and this about this radiation that about that.
But the book kind of brought it all together for me.
Now I feel like I understand it more comprehensively, you know, and other other people say, you know, I had no idea about this, you know, and, you know, like for example, a lot of people are concerned about eating sushi from Japan because of the shima, believe it or not.
You know, and so I used to get calls before the book came out, you know, about, you know, people flew, you know, like wealthy businessmen living in Manhattan worried about the sushi, you know, and then we call me and say, I love sushi.
Do I have to stop eating it?
I'd have people tell me I buy Japanese cars.
Do I have to stop buying Japanese cars?
I mean, so that was the level of hysteria at the time.
And I think that that people that had very heightened worries about it are greatly relieved to some extent.
I may have, I may have instead altered their fears.
So for example, I think that nuclear weapons has gone off the radar for a lot of people.
And I put that back squarely on the radar of people in that book, you know, that this is not a problem that has disappeared.
This is a problem that persists.
This is a much bigger threat than radon cell phones.
We are going to talk about that in the subsequent episode.
Okay, all right.
Yes, yes.
We don't get to that.
Yes, we do.
So, Professor, I sincerely appreciate the time with you and I want to say that it was a great, great pleasure to have you on this episode of the African New Podcast.
I hope that we will feature you once again in the subsequent episode.
So please, can you just give us some last words and maybe a preview to what we are going to discuss in the next iteration?
Okay, so my last words are, people should probably, if they have fears about radiation, they should investigate the basis of those fears.
And they might find that their fears may be lessened or at least rearranged with a little more information.
So I would encourage everyone to get as much information as possible about those things that concern them.
Okay?
Thank you very much.
Okay, thank you, Jeremiah.
Thanks for inviting me.
I really enjoyed it.
Thank you so much.
I look forward to talking to you again.
Thank you so, so much.
I sincerely appreciate it.
Talk to you next time, Professor.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
My pleasure.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.