1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000 It's like four. 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,640 That's how they know he was really recorded at the conference. 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:12,140 Not just he calling him. 4 00:00:12,140 --> 00:00:13,140 Let's see the podcast! 5 00:00:13,140 --> 00:00:14,140 You see the background? 6 00:00:14,140 --> 00:00:15,140 Yes, you do. 7 00:00:15,140 --> 00:00:21,920 Yeah, welcome and Satoshi greetings to you and welcome once again to the Afrinuk podcast. 8 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:28,280 On this episode of the Afrinuk podcast, we bring you interesting views of people who 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:36,960 have attended the Africa Bitcoin conference and this episode is with Wualali Alija who 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:43,800 has gone through various processes and is now at the second edition of the Africa Bitcoin 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:44,800 conference. 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,720 This is going to be a very interesting episode. 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,640 Listen up as we take you through the course of the discussion. 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:53,640 Thank you. 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,200 I'm Dr. Imaia, the host of Afrinuk podcast. 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:02,240 On this podcast, we talk about different things related to nuclear energy and its applications 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,560 to different aspects of human endeavor. 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:13,640 And today, I am with Mr. Wualali, one of the co-conveners of this amazing Africa Bitcoin 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:14,640 conference. 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,800 I've never been in this conference before and he's going to tell us interesting things 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:25,880 about how he came through organizing this process and how it interfaces with nuclear 22 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:31,640 energy and also other aspects of Bitcoin and Africa in general. 23 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:38,120 So please, let's listen up and see and get the scintillating content that this episode 24 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:39,120 brings. 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:45,280 So Mr. Wualali, can you tell us a bit about yourself? 26 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,280 Hi, like I said, my name is Wualali. 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:56,560 I'm a co-convener of the Africa Bitcoin conference and I'm also the director of operations of 28 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,400 the WSTV League. 29 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,480 So good. 30 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,680 So tell us about this Africa Bitcoin conference. 31 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,520 Why do we have to have a conference like this? 32 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,440 And tell us, take us through the journey on how this came about. 33 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:22,120 I know Jack Dosey was here last year and that was the first iteration and this year 34 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:23,280 again it's happening. 35 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:28,280 So take us through the journey on how this came about and it's been sustained to this 36 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:29,280 level at this point. 37 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:37,720 This came about as a simple idea that Africa cannot miss the train of Bitcoin. 38 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:46,080 Africa can actually be at the front guard of new advances in human rights, technology, 39 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,280 science, culture, education, anything. 40 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:58,000 So unlike any other sector, Africa needs to be front and center and an active participant 41 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,160 rather than a consumer. 42 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,120 So why a conference in Africa? 43 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,640 Because a lot of conference about Bitcoin has been happening all over the world, Bitcoin 44 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:17,040 is all over the world organized to understand better, to find solutions, to chart the map 45 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:18,320 for the future. 46 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:25,840 And in those circles as well as me being African that traveling outside of Africa, especially 47 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,440 to the Western countries, is not easy. 48 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:39,600 So the mere fact that there are so many potential in Africa that are potentially excluded from 49 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,480 those venues when there is a conference in New York, a conference in Asia, there's a 50 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,320 conference in Europe. 51 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:53,600 The challenge is that the common African person without a foreign passport or without a ready 52 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,320 visa and you know when conference. 53 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,480 So meaning that it's not a conference for Africans. 54 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,400 And it's an international conference about Bitcoin that has just happened to be happening 55 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:03,400 in Africa. 56 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:04,400 Cool. 57 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:09,680 And you've like gone through a lot of logistics bringing this to pass. 58 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,560 And in this conference I've seen people from different parts of the world, from people 59 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:20,520 like that lived in Europe and they have come to localize in Africa, building some great 60 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:27,160 infrastructure, setting up the mining grids and even building out power plants, you know, 61 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:32,240 like serving the local communities and producing local, making local products that are even 62 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:33,880 of export quality. 63 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,600 So this is really an eye opener, a blessing for me. 64 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,360 Like I see it as a blessing for Africa. 65 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:49,240 So like I am also wondering like this Bitcoin team is not, although I do see it like in 66 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:58,600 some city in Nigeria, I see some bosses like some taxi bosses having some Bitcoin signs 67 00:04:58,600 --> 00:04:59,600 on them. 68 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:04,640 Like I see some people are beginning to pick interests in Bitcoin and some people are, 69 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:09,560 a lot of people, I will not say some, a lot of people don't know about Bitcoin. 70 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:16,480 So what should somebody who is a newbie or an enthusiast know basically about Bitcoin? 71 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:17,480 What is Bitcoin? 72 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:18,480 Bitcoin is money. 73 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,320 Okay, just think about it, that's just money. 74 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,360 So everything you know about money just apply to Bitcoin and you get the answer. 75 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,720 So basically money allows you to transact. 76 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,680 So Bitcoin you can use it to transact. 77 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,880 So as you mentioned on the deal boards, on the cars in Nigeria elsewhere, it's just 78 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,280 pretty much telling people, but yeah, there is a new one, no different than mobile money, 79 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:44,200 mobile money or a bank advertising. 80 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,680 So just to say what you transact. 81 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,920 It's also a way to store value. 82 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:55,640 Simply people can buy Bitcoin for its potential future value, just like you would invest money. 83 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:02,240 You trade money, you trade anything, Bitcoin is not a commodity, but just currency, actually 84 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,240 a natural currency. 85 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:09,720 And then obviously it can also be used as a to measure quantity. 86 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,400 So we know 21 million possible Bitcoin. 87 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:18,320 You know, if I owe you a dollar, you know how much I owe you. 88 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,400 Bitcoin is spam or scan. 89 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:25,640 How is that supposed to be taken and how do you dispel that view if need be? 90 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,080 The saying in Bitcoin is no trust, verify. 91 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:40,120 And I think Bitcoiners build the wrong confidentiality and only meet the but not even trust verification 92 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,120 is more important than trust. 93 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:47,960 And it's for the purpose that currency cannot build without trust. 94 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:58,000 So if you consider, as we were saying that Bitcoin is currency, it's money, if you treat 95 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:04,200 Bitcoin as money, you protect your Bitcoin the same way you protect money, then I think 96 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,200 we will not have it. 97 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,560 I'm going to ask you for a big favor. 98 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:13,840 Are you okay for us to continue this conversation in the car as we head to the airport? 99 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:14,840 Sure, sure. 100 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:15,840 You can. 101 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:22,120 Okay, you know, it would be so funny if you treat your money, you don't give your money 102 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:23,920 to someone you don't trust. 103 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,080 You don't use your credit cards on terminals you don't trust. 104 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,280 You don't invest in businesses that you don't trust. 105 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:37,800 So Bitcoin, pretty much, should go through the same level of scrutiny. 106 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,840 Every day people do lose money for any reason. 107 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:40,840 It doesn't make the head. 108 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:41,840 True, true. 109 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,040 Every day people get scammed for any reason. 110 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:45,040 It doesn't make the money. 111 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,880 And this is the same view people have about nuclear energy, you know. 112 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:55,720 People die from just like going home, like even by walking in their homes, a lot of domestic 113 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,080 accidents claim more lives than what nuclear accidents have done. 114 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,520 So yeah, I think it's the same concept that people are having towards Bitcoin. 115 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,840 I mean, like people fear what they don't know. 116 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:10,440 So which the conference is about adoption is about understanding, it's about education. 117 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:11,440 Yeah. 118 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,800 So this is not a conference of trading Bitcoin or selling Bitcoin or anything, it's a conference 119 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,040 of knowledge, being power. 120 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:20,040 Yeah. 121 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,440 Power being carried through information. 122 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:23,440 Nice. 123 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,440 That's fantastic. 124 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:31,560 Bitcoin takes a lot of energy to mine and when I came to this conference, I have the knowledge 125 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:37,360 that Bitcoin can use the energy that nuclear energy provides. 126 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,320 Can you take us through the kind of energy? 127 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:49,360 Like we have had a minor training, Bitcoin mining training yesterday and I kind of saw 128 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:57,760 the human, like the sound it makes at some points and we are told that one typical MS 129 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:10,080 31, MS 31S kind of Bitcoin miner consumes about 3.5 kilowatts of power. 130 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:15,680 So this tells me that Bitcoin mining consumes a lot of energy. 131 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:24,360 So how do you meet this large energy vis-a-vis what nuclear energy can also provide and maybe 132 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,880 all that for mentioned as well, how do you go about meeting your energy needs? 133 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:37,000 Well, definitely it's about energy and it's about something new. 134 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,440 So with everything new improvements come over time. 135 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:45,360 So pretty sure the first car was not as efficient as the cars that we have today. 136 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:52,000 Pretty sure the first bike or the first TV is not as efficient as what we have today. 137 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,400 So efficiency comes over time one way or the other. 138 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:02,600 But it's presented in terms of, well, we could use this energy elsewhere. 139 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,800 We had some maybe background noise in the previous discussion is because we've been 140 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:13,440 at the venue of the conference and so we interact with people and activities going on there. 141 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:21,920 So continuing our discussion, I want to talk more about, we're talking about the energy 142 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:31,520 requirements and for Bitcoin mining and Walla Li has quite well explained that it gets efficient 143 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:37,480 with time and nuclear energy also kind of comes into play because it has some parallels 144 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,040 with Bitcoin mining. 145 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:48,280 So Walla Li, Ghana is quite advanced in their interest in small modular reactors and this 146 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:55,360 is like a way of having a decentralized source of energy for Bitcoin mining. 147 00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:02,800 But I know that there are some feelings and some kind of nuances about nuclear energy 148 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,200 in Africa, but it's going to come whether we like it or not. 149 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:12,240 So what are your kind of, does it present a new hope for you or kind of expectation 150 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:17,880 for your community and what kind of thoughts do you have about this? 151 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:24,280 This is quite interesting because when it comes to energy, the discussion should be 152 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,600 had in the context of serving people. 153 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,800 And Bitcoin being money, it's also serving people. 154 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:35,760 Just happy that it takes Bitcoin for our government to realize that energy is something 155 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,200 that they have to figure out to provide to the people and that the Bitcoiners, because 156 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:45,120 they are needing so much energy, are willing to invest in an area where the government 157 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,920 has not, then Bitcoin is a good thing. 158 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,080 The centralizing is allowing people to mine. 159 00:11:53,080 --> 00:12:00,880 And small modular reactors gives you the opportunity to go, you can go off the grid, 160 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:06,960 go to a place, to a community where they need energy, you build it there and then Bitcoin 161 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:16,600 mining being also a decentralized way of making money can also cash in into that structure 162 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:17,600 as well. 163 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:27,920 Yeah, and definitely, I'm just happy to see regulations or ideas losing up to allow 164 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,200 private investors and private entities to get into that. 165 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,600 And Bitcoin miners are the one opening the doors. 166 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:42,200 I'm pretty sure other areas of investment are also going to come in. 167 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:48,360 Otherwise, Bitcoin will be mine and it will just mine elsewhere. 168 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:54,880 And I think it funds out well because there is this, I was discussing with Ryan McLeod 169 00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:02,240 about the business model of having a small modular reactor powering Bitcoin mining and 170 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:09,640 having to own that mining infrastructure as a nuclear power plant utility or something. 171 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:10,640 So it pays itself. 172 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,040 You don't have to depend on the community to buy electricity from you as a nuclear power 173 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,040 plant utility. 174 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:25,560 And yeah, if there is an excess kind of load, you can give it to the community and the main 175 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:32,640 continuous operation of the nuclear power plant can always run the mining activities. 176 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:41,920 So I don't know if the Verunga guy who was at the conference describing what he has done, 177 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,640 he tells a lot about how his mining affects the community. 178 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,760 Like he does some value addition to the community. 179 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:54,320 So like this is really inspiring for me. 180 00:13:54,320 --> 00:14:00,400 Like in nuclear engineering, you have your nuclear power plant supplying electricity. 181 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,160 It's not just electricity. 182 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:08,760 The full spectrum of the value chain that electricity provides, you can extend that electricity 183 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,800 to manufacturing, providing jobs and everything. 184 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:18,960 So this is really a very great parallel between Bitcoin mining and nuclear engineering. 185 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:28,560 So like what are the kind of things that you think new frontiers you think that going forward 186 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:34,600 should bring nuclear energy and Bitcoin mining? 187 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:40,200 What are the new frontiers you think these two aspects can kind of operate in the future? 188 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:45,840 I think definitely they are friends for the circumstances because Africa have been faced 189 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,880 with challenges of power and although the ideas that people are now putting in place 190 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:58,560 are not new ideas, Bitcoin just provides a reason as to why because Bitcoin being money, 191 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,400 there is a monetary incentive that immediately can be ripped from that. 192 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:14,120 Otherwise, maybe the consumer base, the property of most area in Africa does not support those 193 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:15,680 high investments. 194 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,880 The whole idea about decentralizing is central to Bitcoin. 195 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:25,800 Maybe people have thought about decentralizing nuclear before but they didn't ever get momentum. 196 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,640 So I think there is a lot of strategic alignment between the two concepts. 197 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:36,760 If we stay forever, I don't know but what I know for sure is that actually breaking 198 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,360 conventions and creating new opportunities. 199 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:44,400 Ultimately, any excess produce is going to benefit communities and I think it's important 200 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:49,880 Bitcoin as a tool for freedom, a tool for personal freedom, enabling people to have 201 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:51,800 access to power. 202 00:15:51,800 --> 00:16:01,200 So can that be done for the people while the investors or the miners are also making a 203 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:02,200 profit? 204 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:09,120 That will be something that needs to be demonstrated and that's what is actually being demonstrated. 205 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,840 I'm really happy that out of all the cities in the world, Africa is at the forefront of 206 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:20,520 those and those are the reasons why the conference is happening here because we are faced with 207 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:21,520 unique challenges. 208 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:27,160 That nowhere else in the world people are faced with or some version of some challenges 209 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:34,480 that everybody faces, that our variants seem to always be more difficult to solve. 210 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,440 So there are solutions happening, there are discussions, there are conversations. 211 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:45,240 Ultimately we need to continue to facilitate dialogue and interaction between government 212 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:54,560 players and thinkers and strategists so that way the solutions that are put in place support 213 00:16:54,560 --> 00:17:00,080 both parties and benefit the people. 214 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,080 Nice. 215 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:07,080 Yesterday when we were going for dinner, the guy who was in the taxi together paid the 216 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,840 driver with Bitcoin. 217 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:15,920 He didn't know anything about Bitcoin and he took it upon himself to introduce it to 218 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,480 him while we were on the way to our hotel. 219 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:26,480 He just told him, okay bring your phone, download the app and he got the payments by Bitcoin 220 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:35,400 and that tells you how receptive we are of new technology that will help us get better. 221 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:36,400 Africa is hungry for progress. 222 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,800 We are hungry for energy, we are just hungry to be better than what we were before. 223 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:48,280 So this gives me hope that something we are going to get better in Africa. 224 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:56,080 So in conclusion, I would like to ask or get from you what are your expectations from this 225 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:02,520 conference and you've said quite a lot about it but what are the things you want every 226 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:08,600 participant in this conference being a co-convener, what do you want every participant to go home 227 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:16,240 with, what are the things and if you are just open to anything, what would you want them 228 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,600 to expect in the upcoming one? 229 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:24,160 The upcoming one is everyone, especially the African Athenian conference, needs to go back 230 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:30,960 to their community and join a meetup or if there is no one, create a meetup and talk to 231 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:38,840 someone about Bitcoin, word of mouth and each one teach one. 232 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:44,520 Like you say, get in the cab, the guy says, you don't know anything about Bitcoin, do 233 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:49,200 in the car ride, let's have a little conversation, by the end we have something concrete, a wallet 234 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:54,480 that is downloaded, money that is transacted, that person can teach another one. 235 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,920 How interesting would it be when we just tell him, oh you've just gotten a Bitcoin that 236 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:04,280 is generated by nuclear energy at the same time, now we all together are very interesting? 237 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,040 Yes, exactly, so it would be very interesting for them to know that the power is coming from 238 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,720 that and on and on and on. 239 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,120 Okay, so thank you very much. 240 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:15,120 Thank you so much. 241 00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:20,600 It's been very educating and scintillating listening to you and I hope we will have some 242 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,160 time to talk like in the near future. 243 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:25,160 Thank you very much. 244 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,160 Oh yeah, definitely. 245 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:27,160 Thank you Jerry. 246 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,160 Yeah.