Welcome to the MedTech Talent Lab, the number
one catalyst for advancing careers and building
high -performance teams. Sponsored by the Anthony
Michael Group, helping companies secure in -demand
talent in regulatory affairs, quality, clinical,
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organizations across the US life sciences sector.
Here's your host, Mitch Robbins. Hey, welcome
back to another episode here on the MedTech Talent
Lab podcast. I'm your host, Mitch Robbins. Foundary
managing director at the Anthony Michael Group
building teams and careers across the industry
and today I have the pleasure of sitting down
with Mr. Mickey Brown who is the vice president
of and reimbursement at Serapetix. Mickey comes
to the show today with over 30 years experience
in the industry serving across lines on both
the payer side and the manufacturing side. He's
worked for companies like Blue Cross, Medtronic,
and Cochlear to name a few. And today, he leads
all of market access and reimbursement efforts
for Serapetix. And if you aren't familiar with
Serapetix, the company is a global commercial
stage orthobiologics organization that aspires
to transform the standard of care for bone repair,
helping bones heal faster and at higher rates
without compromising safety. So without further
ado, Mickey, welcome to the show. Thanks for
having me. Yeah, man, I am thrilled that you're
here. We've had some offline conversations and
you're just an overall good guy. We both live
here in Colorado. We're both dealing with the
viruses that are going on around town for our
families. But we made it. We're here together
to talk about all things career pertaining to
you specifically. And Mickey, how I like to start
off these shows is to recognize that the only
reason you're standing where you are today is
because of the history that's helped kind of
shape your experience and shape your life. And
prior to the professional piece, I think it's
really vital and intriguing to kind of go back
to your formative years and understand. your
foundation. So, if you would, tell us about your
formative years, home life, where you grew up,
family, things like that. Sure. Yeah, so I grew
up in Jackson, Mississippi area, a small town
called Madison, which is just north of Jackson,
suburb community. Pretty normal childhood. Went
to local schools there. Played soccer was my
sport of choice. Soccer and cross -country were
the two things that I really enjoyed. Mostly
soccer with cross country as a training tool
to be able to do all the running and soccer.
Played through throughout high school and through
college. Met my wife my freshman year of college
and we've been married for thirty. Four years
hope she doesn't watch this because then she's
gonna say get it get it right Mickey. Thirty
plus years we'll just go with that yeah. And
my parents still live in Mississippi, so go back
occasionally to visit. I have four daughters,
all adults and two grandchildren. And so, you
know, it's sort of enjoying that grandparent
lifestyle now, which is far superior to the parenting
lifestyle, let me tell you. That is awesome.
And I see it through my through my own parents
with with my kids. And yes, it is a different
thing. It's a different thing when you've got
all the joy and none of the responsibility, so
to speak. That's right. So after high school,
I went to a small college in Jackson, Mississippi
called Millsaps College. Millsaps is a liberal
arts college, Methodist school, played soccer
there. And as I said, I met my wife. My major
was history. I really wasn't sure what I wanted
to do with my life. I thought for a while that
I wanted to get a soccer coach. And then I realized
you could do that without actually doing it for
a living. I chose that route so I did some travel
team coaching for a few years after college until
we started having our own family. I was fortunate
when I was leaving school to get a job with Blue
Cross of Mississippi. 1991 was the year and the
job market was tight, particularly for a guy
who had no particular specialty or skill set.
So I went to work for Blue Cross, worked my way
up there, found I had interest in managed care
and sort of managed care in Mississippi. And
a lot of parts of the country was sort of a fledgling
idea, more mature in certain markets, but certainly
in the South, it was not a big offering from
health plans. We still had the traditional, many
of the folks that will view this or listen to
this podcast won't remember the good old days,
but it was. deductible and co -insurance, there
were no networks, life was good, and we moved
into managed care. So I was involved in sort
of that trend there at Blue Cross. I worked there
for five or six years left, went to United Healthcare
and to a small hospital owned HMO, which was
a really good experience sort of to get a different
sort of view of healthcare, how large publicly
traded company works, how a small company that's
a fledgling company works. So that was a really
good experience. But ultimately, Blue Cross called
me back to do a special project for them, which
was a great opportunity. It was to build a network
for state and school employees. And in doing
that, I got to meet with state legislators, state
regulators, all of the big specialty societies
in the state, the biggest hospitals. And I had
six months to build a network. Ultimately, we
were successful, not without a lot of angst and
sleepless nights, but we got it done. But that
was a really good experience for me, I think,
sort of entrepreneurial spirit inside the protection
of a larger organization. Let me stop you there.
I want to leave a teaser. Before we go on, you
mentioned your home life, cross -country, soccer.
You went to woman Mississippi. You cut your teeth
at Blue Cross. Do you have siblings or are you
an only child? I have siblings. I have a split
family. My parents divorced when I was very young.
And so I have a number of brothers and sisters.
My mother has two boys and a stepson. My father
has a son and daughter. And then I have one sister
from my parent's original marriage. So lots of
siblings. So I wasn't the long ranger. I wasn't
a single parent and a single child. And I was
quite typically the middle child. I wasn't the
adventurous one. That was my sister, the older.
And then I wasn't a troublemaker, not that really
any of my siblings fit in the troublemaker category.
We didn't really have that sort of traditional
troublemaker child that I can remember. Maybe
I blocked all that after all these years. Maybe
it was me and I just don't know it, but yeah.
The point is you were surrounded, it sounds like
you were surrounded by a pretty big family. Yeah,
big family, big family. You know, with the challenges
of parents that are divorced and having to shuttle
back and forth for holidays and sort of re -engage
with family members that you haven't seen for
a while. But my parents worked really hard at
it to make it as comfortable as possible, although
that's always challenging, right? I'm not gonna
suggest that my life as a child was hard in any
way, but there were parts of it that were a little
tougher than others and that was certainly part
of it. And my heart goes out to you as a child
like that. My kids, I'm divorced, and my kids
are experiencing it right now, and I understand
it kind of breaks my heart every couple days
when they go back and forth. Yeah, it's tough,
right? The gear shift is different, right? You
got to reacclimate to a new family structure,
a new family dynamic, and you just left one,
right? So you're constantly moving back and forth.
But again, my parents worked hard to try to do
that as best as they could. You know and we never
treated any of the siblings have never treated
each other as sort of half or step or whatever
the prefix is for that. So everybody worked hard
to just understand that this is a little different
than maybe some other people. But also I mean
I'm 55 years old so I was growing up in a period
of time where there were. where divorce was happening
to a lot of families. That was sort of the wave
of divorce being sort of a more common thing.
It was a little more rare before I came along.
So I knew lots of kids that were like me, right?
That one holiday here, one holiday there. And
so that helped, right? Because you knew people
who were in the same situation. And there were
similar challenges for them. So I didn't feel
any different than anybody else, I guess, was
a good thing. Yeah, no, that's awesome. And then
as your career kind of progressed, you're at
Blue Cross. How did you end up on the industry
side, working for manufacturing? I was on the
health side for about 15 years. And, you know,
it was one of those days where I was just having
a tough day. I mean, I was, I was pretty happy
at Blue Cross. I felt like I was doing good work.
Um, you know, I felt like I worked for Blue Cross
and Blue Shield of Mississippi and our tagline
was, you know, essentially a healthy, healthier
Mississippi. And we were instituting a lot of
programs to try to drive that. And I really felt
invested in that work. But I was having a bad
day. I don't even remember what the issue was.
And I was pretty unhappy that particular day.
And a recruiter called me. And I had not taken
recruiter calls for years because I enjoyed what
I was doing. And I took a call one day. And the
recruiter was working for Medtronic. I said,
well, I'm only interested in roles in the Southeast
because that's where my family is. And that's
what I want to do. And she said, well, good news.
This one's in Memphis, Tennessee, which is three
and a half hour drive from Jackson, Mississippi.
I was like, well, this sounds good. So I took
the call. I got an interview. Metronik was looking
for someone that understood how payers think
they were going to launch some new technologies
that they thought might encounter some challenges.
and wanted somebody who better understood the
intricacies and the ins and outs of health plans
and how they work. I was like, well, I can do
that. I've done that for 15 years. And so I made
the jump, moved the family to the Memphis area.
So not too far, but far enough. We had lived
in the Jackson area, our whole married life,
and I had never lived anywhere else. And so that
was, while it wasn't a long way, it was a difference.
And I think a good difference for me, because
you've You sort of, you know, you got to make
new friends. You've got to find new things to
do and organizations to be part of and things
like that. And I think it was good for my kids
because they were in small schools, went to bigger
schools, had to interact with new people and
different people. And so that was good for them.
And so what was interesting is Hurricane Katrina
hit the weekend before I was supposed to start
work. In Memphis and so we didn't have power.
We didn't have gasoline I spent the Sunday before
I left driving around trying to find gasoline
because there wasn't any in town I finally found
it filled up tanks and cars and and You know
told my wife goodbye, and I drove up and she
stayed Fortunately our house wasn't damaged.
We're far enough from the from the from the the
center of it all That the things got pretty back
to normal pretty quickly in in the Jackson area,
but you know sort of you know, a nervous time
for me, and I went up there, and I would come
back on weekends until my kids finished their
first semester of school, and then we transferred
them the second semester up. So that was, but
I think that was a good thing for me, right?
You're leaving your support network, you're leaving,
you know, help plans, sighted things, that's
all you've known in your professional career.
That was all good for me, from a growth and development
standpoint, I think. That's awesome. And, you
know, as a leader now, fast forward your leading
the whole program. Do you see it as a benefit
for people who want to get into market access
or reimbursement, you know, working for the manufacturer?
Do you see it as a benefit coming from the health
plan the same way they did way back when or not
necessarily? I mean, I think it's, you know,
having that background is good, right? I mean,
you in fact, probably being newer to, you know,
a newer Convert from health plans would be more
helpful than my experience my experience is not
fifteen years old. And we got a bunch of health
plan consolidations without a bunch of changes
in health care. I'm not in the way people had
hoped i think we've had a lot of changes in health
care so being closer to it. Might be helpful
to somebody sort of hearing the side of things
and the things that manufacturers need are the
things that they needed when i joined right understanding.
How is this technology going to be viewed by
payers? So I can have my best foot forward when
I bring this product to market. Um, and you know,
interestingly, in my opinion, many manufacturers
wait too long to start thinking about it. Right.
So they've got a great idea. They should almost
think about it in that before you start your
clinical study, before you start, um, things
like that, you should, you should have a viewpoint
on when it gets to market. What's the challenge
gonna be and some of that's leading the target
right this because the world changes right it
doesn't sit stagnant in the payers evaluating
new technologies differently over time so you
do have to have somebody who can sort of think
ahead and leave the target as best you can but
but to your question yeah i think i think there's
value in having somebody who could make that
shift now not every role right i mean you wouldn't
want somebody to manage the claims operation
to take a role that's probably not so beneficial
but somebody who led a medical policy team somebody
that dealt with those sorts of things. And even
on the reimbursement side, some of the new and
evolving reimbursement models that are out there,
that would be helpful to manufacturers as well.
Do you think that not starting early enough with
your reimbursement strategy and market access
strategy, do you think that is the number one
mistake that organizations make when it comes
to your world of expertise or do you think it's
something different? I think that is probably
one, number one mistake that's made. It's not
a tragic mistake. I mean, you can come back from
it, but it takes, you know, it makes things much
longer. You know, I think the commitment to continued
clinical data development, right? I did one clinical
study. That should be adequate for payers. It
generally is not. And so sort of Okay, I'm going
to finish this study. What's the next study?
And sort of building out how am I going to continue
to prove to payers that this product is one that
they should cover. And I think a lot of times
people think, oh, one clinical study, I'm done.
And generally speaking, that's not true. And
couple closely with that is sort of unrealistic
expectation of how quickly payers are going to
cover your technology. It's typically five to
seven years depending on what it is you know
if you if you care cancer it would be immediate
but nobody's caring cancer you know there's a
few products that come out in the last couple
years that were really really game changers and.
Pairs can quickly see the value and they get
approved quickly things that are harder to tease
out from a pair's view. what's the value of technology
those are the ones that need to continue investing
in studies and things so i think i think yeah
i think having it early so you can at least voice
that input of okay we got one clinical study
we've we've laid out the end points we think
we're going to need but what's after that what
are how are we going to continue to prove that
out as we go down this path and having a having
a plan of a realistic plan are the are the critical
components i think It's got to be a lot of guts
on behalf of the manufacturer and the investors
to not get the coverage that they're looking
for yet. They've got good clinical data. They
need more clinical data. And to keep investing,
keep putting forth time and effort, you've got
to have a ton of confidence, I would think. Yeah.
I mean, I get this question a lot at all the
places I've ever been. What do payers want? And
my comedic comeback is what you don't have. So
you got it they want an rct we got an rct well
now we want to well if you did to now we want
real world evidence will you get that we want.
You know something else right it's it's it's
a lot of times a moving bar. And each pair can
have a sort of a different viewpoint right there's
not one central. Clearing house repair coverage
right each pair individually and so you do kind
of have to think through that like. My favorite
phrase is, so what? So I'm meeting with teams
of people and they're saying, well, our product
does this. And I say, so what? And I'm not saying
it to be mean. I'm saying that's what the pair's
gonna ask. Like you need to translate it into
what, into the value to them, right? So superior
patient outcomes is a clear, easy one, right?
But when you started getting into that sort of
the sub, you know, shorter OR time, shorter earlier
return to work, you know, But you know, it's
it's prove it to me, you know Everybody turns
into Missouri to show me state. Hey, they all
want to you know I'm not gonna believe this because
you told me you're gonna have to prove it to
me. So I think I think you have to be really
critical internally and You know, you need to
be your own your own biggest critic as you're
sort of rolling out to introduce the product
to the market right don't assume that you know
because the engineer says it's amazing that everybody's
going to view it that way, particularly from
the purchasing perspective. That makes a lot
of sense. What about, you know, here we are in
2025, and I think about the course of your career,
you've seen so much evolve over the last 30 plus
years or so. What's the biggest challenge for
market access and reimbursement leaders here
in 2025? Wow. So when I started in this side
of the industry in 2005, I won't say it was easy
to get a meeting with a payer, but you could
get meetings with payers. You could sit down
with them. You could present data. You could
bring a physician with you and then talk about
what they see from a patient needs standpoint.
You could have those engagements. It's gotten
really hard to get a meeting. Everybody wants
you to just send your data so you don't have
any discussion. You don't get any feedback in
terms of If they if they're not going to cover
your product what are the gaps that they see
it's really hard to get that feedback. I actually
did one of these meetings last week which was
surprising but we did it through a pretty circuitous
route we actually went through. Our employee
health plan broker to get the meeting with the
pair. It was not where manufacturer we want to
talk to a pair was as the as the. As the you
know the insured group we went through a broker
and we got a meeting and it was a good meeting
But it was it was not easy And and I'm right
in the middle right now of engaging three or
four different payers trying to get meetings
and the answer so far has been schedules are
too full and I think one of the things that's
happened is in 2005 people like me were pretty
rare the big companies had a little companies
didn't Now everybody, I say everybody, most companies
have somebody like me reaching out to payers.
And so if I were a payer, I would be pushing,
like, I don't have time in the day to meet with
every manufacturer that's out there. Right. So
that's gotten, that's gotten problematic. And
then COVID, I mean, COVID, you know, is the great
excuse for a lot of things. But it has made getting
in -person meetings really hard. It got easy
for them to say no to that. And, you know, video
conference. So the ones that we have now, the
ones, the few that we've been able to engage
are all video conference and nobody turns their
camera on. So you don't know whether they're
engaged or not engaged. Um, so it's, it's gotten
really tough. That's not to say you shouldn't
do it and you shouldn't try, uh, and that there
aren't ways like going through your broker to
get meetings. Um, but the good old days of just
calling and them saying, yes, come on. Or the
other strategy that we employed a lot was. Really
just wind up a doctor a doctor really believes
in the technology and thinks it's best for patients
wind them up prepare them and have them contact
their local pair. They could get a meeting that's
gotten hard. Nobody wants to meet anymore so
that's made it difficult i think. So a lot to
unpack there in the first place i go is since
this united healthcare thing happened with the
shooting. Have you seen an immediate change with
response from payers as far as trying to hide
maybe some of their medical directors or executives
internally? Have they made it harder since then?
Have you noticed? In the last couple of weeks,
I've been researching a couple of payers that
we're trying to engage, and they don't have much
LinkedIn presence. I don't know whether they
did before or not. My suspicion is those that
were on linkedin are off like are off now those
that weren't you know are coming on. I don't
know that it's made it harder to connect with
payers i can tell you the engagement that i had
the other day. They seemed much more engaged.
Then the last time i spoke to this particular
pair that i was able to do the same thing there
my last employer use my broker to get a meeting.
Not the same exact people but same organization
and i can tell you they seemed more engaged more
friendly. More interested now that could be totally
a coincidence it could be that that is a different
group of people and so maybe they were. But i
didn't get the miss was a big pair this is national
i don't drop names this is a national player.
I didn't get the where big or small. leave us
alone feeling that I got last time that I talked
to him. So I'm hoping that that's a trend that
we'll see. Look, I want to state for the record,
that man should not have lost his life over the
challenges that people are having with health
insurers and dealing with claims and issues,
right? I mean, that's absolutely the wrong way
that we should go about trying to drive change.
But it does seem to based on this one interaction,
maybe I've had some change in the positive direction.
And that, you know, my hope is Not the killing
itself, but sort of the reaction. And if you
go on any social media platform these days, you're
hearing more and more horror stories. I'm sure
some are made up, but I'm guessing most are real.
And my hope is that the payers are hearing that
too and saying, look, we've got to work on this.
The other thing that was interesting, the other
day, a group of shareholders filed some sort
of request to UnitedHealthcare asking for a report
on how denials are affecting their image and
the stock itself. And so once the shareholders
start asking those sorts of questions, will we
see some real change and some real openness?
My hope is yes. I sure hope so as well. And then
I was thinking about being in your position and
not being able to get these meetings and having
to rely on blindly setting your data and hoping
that somebody sees enough to say, yeah, okay,
let's talk. And the pressure that someone like
yourself must feel that you've got a job to do
and your job is to move things forward and gain
access, gain coverage. You've got an executive
team who's counting on you saying, what is going
on? Let's go, let's go. You're being faced with
stonewalling. How do you handle that? Well, you
know, so what I generally tell my employees is,
you know, we can't guarantee an outcome. I mean,
we don't own the payers. We, you know, we can,
we can. Try to understand their viewpoint and
provide them as much as we can we can't own what
you know we the outcome is not something we can
control we can control the f. Can we can control.
Okay they said no what's the next approach and
what's the next approach and so. You know i think
you know with my leadership team at at syrupy
takes what you know what we try to do is is show
that look we're doing the right things. If we
continue to do the right things good things will
happen right i mean it because you can't i mean
there's not a formula that says you know one
plus one is two and if we. If we do one plus
one will always get to it just doesn't work that
way and so what you have to do is is rather than
say. You know a pair said no i give up when you
keep going you keep trying you keep saying you
in for what i do is i is i. work with our clinical
team and they say, look, they're telling me we
don't have enough evidence. We have one RCT.
It's like, well, what else can we do? Can we
collect real -world evidence? Can we do a retrospective
study and start thinking strategically there
to say, okay, I mean, no is not no forever. How
do we change that no to a yes? Probably a lot
like the sales cycle, right? You know, just because
the doctor says no doesn't mean you don't go
see them again. 100%. And I think that what you're
saying too is, yeah, it's much... much harder,
but people buy based on the value that they see,
right? And people like to buy, they don't like
to be sold. That's how sales works. And so in
the sales world with the doctor, you've got to
demonstrate enough value it has how it's going
to help them help their patients. Same thing
here. It's like, if you make the payer's life
a little bit easier somehow by giving them the
evidence that they need to make the justification
on their end. Everybody's lives become easier,
but I can imagine it's got to be very very frustrating
More often than not bang your head against the
wall or try and at least get the communication
going Yeah, it can be frustrating and sort of
the other frustration is a lot of times you need
surgeon demand like I mentioned winding the doctor
up and sitting him in the room I'm not talking
about that I'm talking about a lot of pay a lot
of physicians saying I need access to this for
this patient for this reason and You know if
you go to a pair you're lucky enough to get a
meeting and they tell you we don't get any appeals.
So our policy must be correct that's the worst
feeling in the world because that means that.
Your your customer base is either not sold or
willing to put the effort and to try to help
you drive to a coverage decision so there's a
bit of a there's a bit of. You know about a top
down bottom up strategy where you attack the
pair from. Attach one other word but you approach
the pair from the industry perspective within
unique unique grassroots demand for the product.
You need physicians calling the priest or if
they get tonight. Doing appeals saying this is
why this patient needs the technology and so
that you're sort of pushing the pair from two
directions and so so you do have to work collaborative
with your sales team right if the sales team
is telling you look i can't sell it because we're
not getting approvals. Do you need to be back
in with the sales were saying what can we get
some people to submit appeals. Cause appeals
cost payers money. Right. And if you can get
them spending enough money on appeals and if
they're losing those appeals at external review
or other places, then they're more likely to
change their policy. But if they're never hearing
about your technology from anybody, why change
the policy? I mean, it's, you know, it's a tree
that falls in the woods with no one around. Right.
It makes no sound. I mean, you need that noise
from, from the market. So you have to do a bit
of driving for both ends. a double -edged question
for you. One is about your own career and your
leadership. The other one is about leading people,
and we're going to start with your own career.
You know, you've held some pretty significant
roles over the years. I mentioned you had some
great exposure at Medtronic. You were leading
the program for Cochlear, or at least a huge
part of it, from what I know. You've done it,
you know, kind of in the startup small organization
world. Can you point out pivotal moments in your
career that you think help catalyze your career
and kind of help you get to the next level? So
I think, you know, the first thing that I did
is when I was at Blue Cross, my first job there,
I was a medical underwriter. So they had me reviewing
people's medical history to decide whether they
got insurance or not. This is before HIPAA. So
we could review individual medical history and
we could say yes or no to whether we cover you
or not. Why i was qualified that for that i have
no idea i mean i was a history major medical
history maybe they somebody got confused but
they stuck me in that job no medical training
and it was most miserable job i've ever had cuz
you had to actually tell people i couldn't have
health insurance and people were very upset people
would cry you could understand right that's i
would have nightmares about the phone ringing
and having to talk to people about that as a
as a twenty two year old i'm pretty tough job.
But blue cross posted a position for their manager
coordinator. And i applied for it so here's the
pivotal point they told me that i had to do a
presentation to a group of executives as part
of the application process. And. I was petrified.
I did not want, I wanted to pull my application
from the job and my better half, my wife, coached
me up and convinced me to keep my hat in the
ring. Um, I put together a presentation. She
helped me. This is back before PowerPoint was
a big thing. She was the PowerPoint guru. She
helped me put together a presentation and we
really, as a team, she helped prepare me for
this, for this interview. did the interview,
did the presentation, got the job. So now I've
presented to an executive team successfully.
So you get a little bit of confidence, right?
Taking those small opportunities, at the time
it seemed big, but in hindsight, small opportunities
to present yourself in a good light to organizational
leadership. But also to sort of stretch your
comfort in your and your and in your and your
self -imposed boundaries right to say no you
can do this so once i did that i was like okay
you know i don't feel like i do a lot of things
now all of a sudden that i wasn't maybe so sure
that i could do um so that was one um i left
blue cross and went to the mississippi hospital
association and they had created an hmo I had
15 hospital members and they were going to build
out an HMO and I was going to be one of the first
employees. And my first day on the job, I had
just completed my onboarding paperwork. They
took me to a meeting, sat me in front of a hospital
administrator who had a bunch of questions about
what we were going to do and how we were going
to do it. And they basically said, this is Mickey.
He can answer all your questions day one. So
again, you're just sort of shoved into, you know,
into it. thinker swam and fortunately I swam,
swam, swam. That's the right word. But again,
you're sort of a person who runs a big hospital
in Mississippi. You sit down with them and you
have a good conversation. They're very happy
with what you've shared with them. It gives you
confidence. So again, you're, okay, I can do
that. Then in that company, I met with the board
every quarter and had to present to the board
every quarter. So again, not, you know, not United
Healthcare's board, but, you know, in a smaller
scale, it's pretty important people. And you
have that conversation. And so, you know, throughout
my career, I've sort of reflected on those things
and said, okay, you took another step. So you
don't have to go back down, right? You don't
have to go back down a step. Like you can, you
can hold a conversation with a board of directors
of a company. These are smart people, right?
And you can hold your own. Okay. I don't have
to worry about that anymore. So what's the next
one? So I've sort of used those as building blocks.
Went back to Blue Cross, had to build this network.
So I had to meet with state regulators, state
legislators. I presented to the Mississippi State
Legislature. Again, another like petrified. Do
the presentation. And you're like, I mean, it
can't get any harder than that. I mean, these
are all politicians and they all have they all
had opinions. And, you know, they were all doing
their political thing to make points. But you
did a good job. So, okay, I can do that. And
so I've tried to be conscious of those things,
right? And I've looked for opportunities to stick
myself in uncomfortable positions, right? After
that very first one where my wife made me do
it, I've looked for those opportunities, because
you can see the development and the growth. I
want to jump in here, Mickey, because, so a couple
things. Hopefully you've thanked your wife up
and down over the years for because in essence
that shaped the trajectory of your career. And
who knows where you would have been if you didn't
take that interview. I'd still be sitting in
that cubicle. No, I don't think that would have
been the case. They probably would have gotten
rid of me after a while. But no, I thank her
every day. I mean, you know, and I think that's
important, right? Even if you're not married,
you need to have people in your life that are
your hype man or your hype woman, right? People
that believe in you and that believe you. Maybe
believe in you more than yourself. It's always
good to have those people in your life. The second
piece takeaway, and I can now look anybody in
the eye with absolute certainty and say that
this is the most common theme amongst executives,
is that every single person I've ever asked that
question to, hey, what are the pivotal moments
or why do you think you got to where you are?
where you are today, say, also, I was willing
to take risk. I got outside of my comfort zone.
I took on challenge that I didn't know what the
heck I was doing, but I figured it out. I gained
some confidence. That created exposure, which
then gave others more confidence to give me more
responsibility. And here you are saying, hey,
there's three different moments I can point to
at least by the snap of a finger where I got
outside my comfort zone. And then I started to
do it on purpose because I knew it was good for
me. Yeah, I mean, that's a great way of summarizing
it. I mean, you know, the word that pops to mind
is intentional. I mean, you have to be intentional,
right? I want to step back and say there's nothing
wrong with somebody who wants to do the same
job for 30 years. I have no issue. Like, the
world needs people that are completely happy
doing what they're doing. But if you have goals
that, you know, if you want to grow in an organization
or grow in an industry, then you do have to challenge
yourself, right? You do have to put yourself
in uncomfortable positions. Not in positions
you're not prepared for. Don't do anything rash.
You don't go to the Mississippi State Legislature
and you're not ready for it. You have to be honest
with yourself. But if you're ready for it, then
take it. Do it. Great experience. So, that's
the way I think about it. So, we've got to wrap
up shortly, but I've only got a couple other
things that we absolutely have to ask you about.
Okay. And that is, put yourself in the shoes
of a director right now, who's a director of
reimbursement, director of market access, whatever
it may be. And they aspire to become a vice president.
What do you think are the key differences in
responsibility or mindset that maybe they're
not necessarily prepared for, but they would
like to be? Yeah, that's a great question because
I've been in a lot of situations personally where
you think you're ready for the next step, but
the organization doesn't. Or, or you're questioning,
how do I get ready for the next step? Um, you
know, and I think the big difference is, um,
the amount of information that you have to go
through and the speed at which you have to go
through it to get to a decision. Right. So, um,
you know, as you, as you're, as you're down the
organization, right, you have more time to assess
that situation, the data, the facts. and come
up with an idea by the time it gets to you as
a vice president you have a general you don't
have a lot of time. And you got a lot of people
asking you a lot of questions you gotta be able
to filter quickly and get to get to a decision
and the thing that i would tell people as directors.
If you're presenting to executives think about
how executives want to see information. Right.
If they ask you what time it is, don't build
the clock for them. They trust that you know
how to build it. They want to know what time
it is. So give them the time. And if they have
questions, be prepared to answer how you build
the clock. But I think sometimes directors, when
they're presenting to executives, which is how
executives get an opportunity and exposure to
you to see if you're ready, is they feel like
they're in there justifying their opinion. They're
justifying their bona fides. They're justifying,
you know, Everything before they get to the recommendation
and I would I would reverse it. You know, here's
the problem. Here's what I think we should do.
And here's why I think we should do it. And it
might be the shortest meeting you ever had and
be like, I guess smart or that or that that person
is smart. But if you go in there and start building
the clock, I mean, they're thinking about all
the 10 ,000 other things they've got to do. So
so cut to the chase. I think that's how people
should think about preparing to be an executive,
because that's what happens. I mean, you don't
i don't have time to understand the clock like
i heard you did i heard a bunch of really smart
people to build the clock i just need the key
data points that i need to make a decision um
and if i have questions i shouldn't be uh you
know fearful that i'm going to look bad by asking
question i'm an executive i mean i i'm going
to do that uh and so people should think about
it that way right is think about Because in the
end, I mean, the difference between somebody
who is a very good director in an organization
who's leading strategy to some level, who's driving
people to results, that next step to vice president.
I have this sort of personal view that like a
vice president organization is 90 % future and
10 % current, right? I'm looking ahead. I'm trying
to figure out the next thing about 90 % of the
time. A director's probably 60, 40. Right. They're
thinking about the future a little bit and maybe
40, 60 and the managers are almost day to day.
Like I'm thinking about today. I drive my team.
So I think about it that way. And so they need
to be thinking, you know, what's, you know, a
good director should be thinking about what's
next and helping the vice president with that
strategy. And that that's what prepares you.
I think that's Awesome, awesome insight. I love
what you said about making sure that you know
your audience, not bogging them down with unnecessary
detail, starting with the end in mind, hey, here's
the problem, here's what we recommend, and then
being able to field questions, because an executive
will ask the questions they need to ask until
they get to a level of comfort where they feel
poised to sign off or make a decision. And a
lot of the feedback that I've gotten over time
too with interviews and stuff is, man, we got
lost in the details. or they were either too
vague or we got lost in the details or they aren't
necessarily recognizing the audience in front
of them. And you're right. Somebody with that
much responsibility has so many things on their
mind and they need to think quickly and they
need to react quickly. So give them the juice
of what they need and kind of leave the peripheral
stuff unless they ask for it. It makes a lot
of sense. And if you don't... if you start building
the clock, you're not going to get to your recommendation
because there are going to be so many questions
about how the clock's built, right? I mean, you
know, so I think I tend to think do it in reverse
the way that most people typically do it. What
makes an outstanding reimbursement or a market
access professional in your mind, like a true
outlier versus kind of like the run of the mill
path? I mean, somebody that's always thinking
of new ways to attack the problem, right? You're
going to, okay, we want to get this pair to change
their policy, we're going to do this. But almost,
and without fail, that's not going to work. Whatever
that first strategy is not, or was, is not going
to work. So you need to almost build in pivot
points, like, so when that doesn't work, we're
going to do this. When that doesn't work, we're
going to do that. So the person that thinks that
way, who has backup plans, plan B, plan C, I
think is better than the average reimbursement
person, market access person. And then a person
who is driven, right? So the worst thing that
you can have on your team is someone who's like,
yep, they said no. They said, no, but here's
what I'm going to do. I'm going to continue.
I mean, it's probably not dissimilar to salespeople
in terms of the energy, right? You're going to
get a lot of nos, but you got to keep fighting
for some yeses. And so having that internal drive,
you know, for me personally, I don't want somebody
who calls me after every failure and says, what
should I do now? Call me and tell me it didn't
work. And what do you think you're going to do?
And I might throw in a different strategy, but
don't come to me for all the answers, right?
Pick up some on your own. So that's the kind
of person. So it's sort of the intangibles, I
guess. I mean, it's not a particular education
necessarily. It's more that inner drive. I was
just going to say, you can't teach that. That's
innate. And that's why there's awesome salespeople
too, right? continue to grind are tenacious.
They see the bigger why. They've got tough, callous
skin, and they understand that this is just part
of the game. And I think that's probably why
you see so many people go on from sales to get
into market access and be successful, because
that's their foundation. That's who they are.
Right. This is awesome, man. I can't thank you
enough for being here. You've dropped a ton of
nuggets today. What are you excited about at
Serapetix right now? What's going on? I think
we're a company that's poised to do some really
good things. We've got a product on the market.
It's been on the market for a number of years.
It continues to grow, which is nice in orthopedic
space. And then a new product with the FDA waiting
on their approval. And so launching the new product
is exciting. But a product that's been on the
market for six years and continues to grow is
a nice place to be. So I think there's a lot
of things exciting about therapeutics right now.
but primarily those two factors. Great stuff,
man. Well, like all the other shows, if you're
okay with it, what we'll do in the show notes
is put a link to your LinkedIn profile and a
link to Serapetix and encourage anyone who is
intrigued to reach out and learn more to do so.
That would be great. Thank you, Mitch. All right.
Mickey, thanks so much for being here and for
all the gold that you shared today. I really
do appreciate it. Well, thanks for the invitation.
I really appreciate it. I've enjoyed the conversation.
Thanks for listening to the MedTech Talent Lab
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