WEBVTT 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:06.480 Welcome to the MedTech Talent Lab, the number 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.560 one catalyst for advancing careers and building 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:13.019 high -performance teams. Sponsored by the Anthony 00:00:13.019 --> 00:00:16.320 Michael Group, helping companies secure in -demand 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:20.420 talent in regulatory affairs, quality, clinical, 00:00:20.859 --> 00:00:24.960 engineering, R &D, and other areas for medical 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:28.800 device, digital health, diagnostics, and other 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.340 organizations across the US life sciences sector. 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:41.820 Here's your host, Mitch Robbins. Hey, welcome 00:00:41.820 --> 00:00:45.000 back to another episode here on the MedTech Talent 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:47.979 Lab podcast. I'm your host, Mitch Robbins. Foundary 00:00:47.979 --> 00:00:49.700 managing director at the Anthony Michael Group 00:00:49.700 --> 00:00:54.219 building teams and careers across the industry 00:00:54.219 --> 00:00:56.340 and today I have the pleasure of sitting down 00:00:56.340 --> 00:00:58.579 with Mr. Mickey Brown who is the vice president 00:00:58.579 --> 00:01:01.939 of and reimbursement at Serapetix. Mickey comes 00:01:01.939 --> 00:01:05.019 to the show today with over 30 years experience 00:01:05.019 --> 00:01:07.640 in the industry serving across lines on both 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:10.379 the payer side and the manufacturing side. He's 00:01:10.379 --> 00:01:13.060 worked for companies like Blue Cross, Medtronic, 00:01:13.379 --> 00:01:16.260 and Cochlear to name a few. And today, he leads 00:01:16.260 --> 00:01:18.640 all of market access and reimbursement efforts 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:22.019 for Serapetix. And if you aren't familiar with 00:01:22.019 --> 00:01:25.299 Serapetix, the company is a global commercial 00:01:25.299 --> 00:01:27.859 stage orthobiologics organization that aspires 00:01:27.859 --> 00:01:31.200 to transform the standard of care for bone repair, 00:01:31.659 --> 00:01:33.980 helping bones heal faster and at higher rates 00:01:33.980 --> 00:01:36.939 without compromising safety. So without further 00:01:36.939 --> 00:01:40.000 ado, Mickey, welcome to the show. Thanks for 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:43.439 having me. Yeah, man, I am thrilled that you're 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:46.120 here. We've had some offline conversations and 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:48.319 you're just an overall good guy. We both live 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:50.879 here in Colorado. We're both dealing with the 00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:52.859 viruses that are going on around town for our 00:01:52.859 --> 00:01:56.170 families. But we made it. We're here together 00:01:56.170 --> 00:02:00.150 to talk about all things career pertaining to 00:02:00.150 --> 00:02:03.069 you specifically. And Mickey, how I like to start 00:02:03.069 --> 00:02:05.430 off these shows is to recognize that the only 00:02:05.430 --> 00:02:07.349 reason you're standing where you are today is 00:02:07.349 --> 00:02:09.870 because of the history that's helped kind of 00:02:09.870 --> 00:02:12.849 shape your experience and shape your life. And 00:02:12.849 --> 00:02:15.569 prior to the professional piece, I think it's 00:02:15.569 --> 00:02:18.849 really vital and intriguing to kind of go back 00:02:18.849 --> 00:02:21.630 to your formative years and understand. your 00:02:21.630 --> 00:02:24.530 foundation. So, if you would, tell us about your 00:02:24.530 --> 00:02:26.229 formative years, home life, where you grew up, 00:02:26.270 --> 00:02:29.310 family, things like that. Sure. Yeah, so I grew 00:02:29.310 --> 00:02:32.370 up in Jackson, Mississippi area, a small town 00:02:32.370 --> 00:02:34.689 called Madison, which is just north of Jackson, 00:02:34.849 --> 00:02:39.710 suburb community. Pretty normal childhood. Went 00:02:39.710 --> 00:02:45.169 to local schools there. Played soccer was my 00:02:45.169 --> 00:02:47.469 sport of choice. Soccer and cross -country were 00:02:47.469 --> 00:02:51.049 the two things that I really enjoyed. Mostly 00:02:51.049 --> 00:02:53.930 soccer with cross country as a training tool 00:02:53.930 --> 00:02:55.949 to be able to do all the running and soccer. 00:02:57.430 --> 00:02:59.930 Played through throughout high school and through 00:02:59.930 --> 00:03:04.650 college. Met my wife my freshman year of college 00:03:04.650 --> 00:03:09.210 and we've been married for thirty. Four years 00:03:09.210 --> 00:03:11.189 hope she doesn't watch this because then she's 00:03:11.189 --> 00:03:14.310 gonna say get it get it right Mickey. Thirty 00:03:14.310 --> 00:03:18.210 plus years we'll just go with that yeah. And 00:03:18.210 --> 00:03:21.030 my parents still live in Mississippi, so go back 00:03:21.030 --> 00:03:24.550 occasionally to visit. I have four daughters, 00:03:25.710 --> 00:03:29.689 all adults and two grandchildren. And so, you 00:03:29.689 --> 00:03:31.270 know, it's sort of enjoying that grandparent 00:03:31.270 --> 00:03:34.569 lifestyle now, which is far superior to the parenting 00:03:34.569 --> 00:03:38.270 lifestyle, let me tell you. That is awesome. 00:03:38.289 --> 00:03:41.229 And I see it through my through my own parents 00:03:41.229 --> 00:03:44.789 with with my kids. And yes, it is a different 00:03:44.789 --> 00:03:47.340 thing. It's a different thing when you've got 00:03:47.340 --> 00:03:49.680 all the joy and none of the responsibility, so 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.500 to speak. That's right. So after high school, 00:03:52.500 --> 00:03:54.699 I went to a small college in Jackson, Mississippi 00:03:54.699 --> 00:03:57.400 called Millsaps College. Millsaps is a liberal 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:00.560 arts college, Methodist school, played soccer 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:04.240 there. And as I said, I met my wife. My major 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.479 was history. I really wasn't sure what I wanted 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:08.159 to do with my life. I thought for a while that 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.180 I wanted to get a soccer coach. And then I realized 00:04:11.180 --> 00:04:14.319 you could do that without actually doing it for 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:18.949 a living. I chose that route so I did some travel 00:04:18.949 --> 00:04:22.209 team coaching for a few years after college until 00:04:22.209 --> 00:04:26.470 we started having our own family. I was fortunate 00:04:26.470 --> 00:04:29.470 when I was leaving school to get a job with Blue 00:04:29.470 --> 00:04:34.329 Cross of Mississippi. 1991 was the year and the 00:04:34.329 --> 00:04:37.209 job market was tight, particularly for a guy 00:04:37.209 --> 00:04:40.250 who had no particular specialty or skill set. 00:04:40.750 --> 00:04:44.050 So I went to work for Blue Cross, worked my way 00:04:44.050 --> 00:04:47.290 up there, found I had interest in managed care 00:04:47.290 --> 00:04:49.569 and sort of managed care in Mississippi. And 00:04:49.569 --> 00:04:51.569 a lot of parts of the country was sort of a fledgling 00:04:51.569 --> 00:04:54.689 idea, more mature in certain markets, but certainly 00:04:54.689 --> 00:04:57.970 in the South, it was not a big offering from 00:04:57.970 --> 00:05:01.670 health plans. We still had the traditional, many 00:05:01.670 --> 00:05:04.449 of the folks that will view this or listen to 00:05:04.449 --> 00:05:06.370 this podcast won't remember the good old days, 00:05:06.370 --> 00:05:08.600 but it was. deductible and co -insurance, there 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.500 were no networks, life was good, and we moved 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:13.439 into managed care. So I was involved in sort 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:17.939 of that trend there at Blue Cross. I worked there 00:05:17.939 --> 00:05:21.259 for five or six years left, went to United Healthcare 00:05:21.259 --> 00:05:25.620 and to a small hospital owned HMO, which was 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:28.259 a really good experience sort of to get a different 00:05:28.259 --> 00:05:32.800 sort of view of healthcare, how large publicly 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:35.480 traded company works, how a small company that's 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:39.000 a fledgling company works. So that was a really 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.519 good experience. But ultimately, Blue Cross called 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:44.860 me back to do a special project for them, which 00:05:44.860 --> 00:05:47.899 was a great opportunity. It was to build a network 00:05:47.899 --> 00:05:51.699 for state and school employees. And in doing 00:05:51.699 --> 00:05:54.720 that, I got to meet with state legislators, state 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:59.279 regulators, all of the big specialty societies 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:03.199 in the state, the biggest hospitals. And I had 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:05.180 six months to build a network. Ultimately, we 00:06:05.180 --> 00:06:09.180 were successful, not without a lot of angst and 00:06:09.180 --> 00:06:11.300 sleepless nights, but we got it done. But that 00:06:11.300 --> 00:06:13.680 was a really good experience for me, I think, 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:18.500 sort of entrepreneurial spirit inside the protection 00:06:18.500 --> 00:06:22.199 of a larger organization. Let me stop you there. 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:26.100 I want to leave a teaser. Before we go on, you 00:06:26.100 --> 00:06:27.980 mentioned your home life, cross -country, soccer. 00:06:28.139 --> 00:06:31.420 You went to woman Mississippi. You cut your teeth 00:06:31.420 --> 00:06:34.040 at Blue Cross. Do you have siblings or are you 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:37.899 an only child? I have siblings. I have a split 00:06:37.899 --> 00:06:39.839 family. My parents divorced when I was very young. 00:06:40.060 --> 00:06:42.480 And so I have a number of brothers and sisters. 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:50.019 My mother has two boys and a stepson. My father 00:06:50.019 --> 00:06:54.379 has a son and daughter. And then I have one sister 00:06:54.379 --> 00:06:59.720 from my parent's original marriage. So lots of 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:03.720 siblings. So I wasn't the long ranger. I wasn't 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:09.839 a single parent and a single child. And I was 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:18.540 quite typically the middle child. I wasn't the 00:07:18.540 --> 00:07:20.680 adventurous one. That was my sister, the older. 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:24.680 And then I wasn't a troublemaker, not that really 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:27.240 any of my siblings fit in the troublemaker category. 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:30.019 We didn't really have that sort of traditional 00:07:30.019 --> 00:07:33.899 troublemaker child that I can remember. Maybe 00:07:33.899 --> 00:07:36.860 I blocked all that after all these years. Maybe 00:07:36.860 --> 00:07:39.339 it was me and I just don't know it, but yeah. 00:07:39.420 --> 00:07:40.980 The point is you were surrounded, it sounds like 00:07:40.980 --> 00:07:43.740 you were surrounded by a pretty big family. Yeah, 00:07:43.779 --> 00:07:47.680 big family, big family. You know, with the challenges 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.680 of parents that are divorced and having to shuttle 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:54.439 back and forth for holidays and sort of re -engage 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:56.100 with family members that you haven't seen for 00:07:56.100 --> 00:07:58.560 a while. But my parents worked really hard at 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:04.100 it to make it as comfortable as possible, although 00:08:04.100 --> 00:08:07.240 that's always challenging, right? I'm not gonna 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:10.879 suggest that my life as a child was hard in any 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:13.980 way, but there were parts of it that were a little 00:08:13.980 --> 00:08:15.779 tougher than others and that was certainly part 00:08:15.779 --> 00:08:18.759 of it. And my heart goes out to you as a child 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:20.920 like that. My kids, I'm divorced, and my kids 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:22.899 are experiencing it right now, and I understand 00:08:22.899 --> 00:08:26.000 it kind of breaks my heart every couple days 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.100 when they go back and forth. Yeah, it's tough, 00:08:28.220 --> 00:08:30.519 right? The gear shift is different, right? You 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:34.799 got to reacclimate to a new family structure, 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:38.379 a new family dynamic, and you just left one, 00:08:38.460 --> 00:08:41.139 right? So you're constantly moving back and forth. 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.559 But again, my parents worked hard to try to do 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:49.179 that as best as they could. You know and we never 00:08:49.179 --> 00:08:52.460 treated any of the siblings have never treated 00:08:52.460 --> 00:08:55.639 each other as sort of half or step or whatever 00:08:55.639 --> 00:09:00.860 the prefix is for that. So everybody worked hard 00:09:00.860 --> 00:09:04.600 to just understand that this is a little different 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:06.940 than maybe some other people. But also I mean 00:09:06.940 --> 00:09:09.480 I'm 55 years old so I was growing up in a period 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:11.710 of time where there were. where divorce was happening 00:09:11.710 --> 00:09:14.690 to a lot of families. That was sort of the wave 00:09:14.690 --> 00:09:18.509 of divorce being sort of a more common thing. 00:09:18.509 --> 00:09:22.330 It was a little more rare before I came along. 00:09:22.769 --> 00:09:24.950 So I knew lots of kids that were like me, right? 00:09:25.210 --> 00:09:27.929 That one holiday here, one holiday there. And 00:09:27.929 --> 00:09:29.889 so that helped, right? Because you knew people 00:09:29.889 --> 00:09:33.570 who were in the same situation. And there were 00:09:33.570 --> 00:09:36.190 similar challenges for them. So I didn't feel 00:09:36.190 --> 00:09:38.129 any different than anybody else, I guess, was 00:09:38.129 --> 00:09:41.809 a good thing. Yeah, no, that's awesome. And then 00:09:41.809 --> 00:09:43.470 as your career kind of progressed, you're at 00:09:43.470 --> 00:09:45.049 Blue Cross. How did you end up on the industry 00:09:45.049 --> 00:09:48.789 side, working for manufacturing? I was on the 00:09:48.789 --> 00:09:52.990 health side for about 15 years. And, you know, 00:09:53.070 --> 00:09:54.309 it was one of those days where I was just having 00:09:54.309 --> 00:09:56.309 a tough day. I mean, I was, I was pretty happy 00:09:56.309 --> 00:09:59.110 at Blue Cross. I felt like I was doing good work. 00:10:00.009 --> 00:10:02.570 Um, you know, I felt like I worked for Blue Cross 00:10:02.570 --> 00:10:04.269 and Blue Shield of Mississippi and our tagline 00:10:04.269 --> 00:10:06.990 was, you know, essentially a healthy, healthier 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:09.450 Mississippi. And we were instituting a lot of 00:10:09.450 --> 00:10:12.830 programs to try to drive that. And I really felt 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:15.570 invested in that work. But I was having a bad 00:10:15.570 --> 00:10:17.330 day. I don't even remember what the issue was. 00:10:17.450 --> 00:10:20.129 And I was pretty unhappy that particular day. 00:10:20.169 --> 00:10:22.850 And a recruiter called me. And I had not taken 00:10:22.850 --> 00:10:27.250 recruiter calls for years because I enjoyed what 00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:31.750 I was doing. And I took a call one day. And the 00:10:31.750 --> 00:10:37.000 recruiter was working for Medtronic. I said, 00:10:37.019 --> 00:10:38.860 well, I'm only interested in roles in the Southeast 00:10:38.860 --> 00:10:41.080 because that's where my family is. And that's 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.399 what I want to do. And she said, well, good news. 00:10:43.460 --> 00:10:46.399 This one's in Memphis, Tennessee, which is three 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:48.419 and a half hour drive from Jackson, Mississippi. 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:51.100 I was like, well, this sounds good. So I took 00:10:51.100 --> 00:10:56.259 the call. I got an interview. Metronik was looking 00:10:56.259 --> 00:10:59.299 for someone that understood how payers think 00:10:59.299 --> 00:11:01.039 they were going to launch some new technologies 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:02.759 that they thought might encounter some challenges. 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:05.539 and wanted somebody who better understood the 00:11:05.539 --> 00:11:07.740 intricacies and the ins and outs of health plans 00:11:07.740 --> 00:11:10.720 and how they work. I was like, well, I can do 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:14.899 that. I've done that for 15 years. And so I made 00:11:14.899 --> 00:11:17.919 the jump, moved the family to the Memphis area. 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:21.519 So not too far, but far enough. We had lived 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:23.799 in the Jackson area, our whole married life, 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:26.360 and I had never lived anywhere else. And so that 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:28.980 was, while it wasn't a long way, it was a difference. 00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:32.139 And I think a good difference for me, because 00:11:32.139 --> 00:11:34.919 you've You sort of, you know, you got to make 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:38.820 new friends. You've got to find new things to 00:11:38.820 --> 00:11:41.820 do and organizations to be part of and things 00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:44.519 like that. And I think it was good for my kids 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:48.139 because they were in small schools, went to bigger 00:11:48.139 --> 00:11:50.879 schools, had to interact with new people and 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.299 different people. And so that was good for them. 00:11:53.740 --> 00:11:58.500 And so what was interesting is Hurricane Katrina 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:01.720 hit the weekend before I was supposed to start 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:05.620 work. In Memphis and so we didn't have power. 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:08.860 We didn't have gasoline I spent the Sunday before 00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:10.919 I left driving around trying to find gasoline 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:12.860 because there wasn't any in town I finally found 00:12:12.860 --> 00:12:16.440 it filled up tanks and cars and and You know 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:18.720 told my wife goodbye, and I drove up and she 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.659 stayed Fortunately our house wasn't damaged. 00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:25.460 We're far enough from the from the from the the 00:12:25.460 --> 00:12:28.480 center of it all That the things got pretty back 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.799 to normal pretty quickly in in the Jackson area, 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.700 but you know sort of you know, a nervous time 00:12:33.700 --> 00:12:35.779 for me, and I went up there, and I would come 00:12:35.779 --> 00:12:39.059 back on weekends until my kids finished their 00:12:39.059 --> 00:12:41.220 first semester of school, and then we transferred 00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:43.899 them the second semester up. So that was, but 00:12:43.899 --> 00:12:45.340 I think that was a good thing for me, right? 00:12:45.340 --> 00:12:48.080 You're leaving your support network, you're leaving, 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.360 you know, help plans, sighted things, that's 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:52.139 all you've known in your professional career. 00:12:53.500 --> 00:12:56.240 That was all good for me, from a growth and development 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:58.840 standpoint, I think. That's awesome. And, you 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:01.440 know, as a leader now, fast forward your leading 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:04.639 the whole program. Do you see it as a benefit 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:06.539 for people who want to get into market access 00:13:06.539 --> 00:13:08.379 or reimbursement, you know, working for the manufacturer? 00:13:08.460 --> 00:13:10.139 Do you see it as a benefit coming from the health 00:13:10.139 --> 00:13:13.080 plan the same way they did way back when or not 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:15.720 necessarily? I mean, I think it's, you know, 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:17.759 having that background is good, right? I mean, 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:21.759 you in fact, probably being newer to, you know, 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:24.700 a newer Convert from health plans would be more 00:13:24.700 --> 00:13:26.600 helpful than my experience my experience is not 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:29.440 fifteen years old. And we got a bunch of health 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:31.559 plan consolidations without a bunch of changes 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:34.840 in health care. I'm not in the way people had 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:37.240 hoped i think we've had a lot of changes in health 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:40.220 care so being closer to it. Might be helpful 00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:42.779 to somebody sort of hearing the side of things 00:13:42.779 --> 00:13:47.460 and the things that manufacturers need are the 00:13:47.460 --> 00:13:49.639 things that they needed when i joined right understanding. 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:52.139 How is this technology going to be viewed by 00:13:52.139 --> 00:13:54.980 payers? So I can have my best foot forward when 00:13:54.980 --> 00:13:58.820 I bring this product to market. Um, and you know, 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.840 interestingly, in my opinion, many manufacturers 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:03.960 wait too long to start thinking about it. Right. 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.980 So they've got a great idea. They should almost 00:14:06.980 --> 00:14:09.200 think about it in that before you start your 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:12.639 clinical study, before you start, um, things 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.840 like that, you should, you should have a viewpoint 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.480 on when it gets to market. What's the challenge 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.379 gonna be and some of that's leading the target 00:14:20.379 --> 00:14:22.340 right this because the world changes right it 00:14:22.340 --> 00:14:24.559 doesn't sit stagnant in the payers evaluating 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:27.039 new technologies differently over time so you 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:28.820 do have to have somebody who can sort of think 00:14:28.820 --> 00:14:32.379 ahead and leave the target as best you can but 00:14:32.379 --> 00:14:34.759 but to your question yeah i think i think there's 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:36.559 value in having somebody who could make that 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:39.340 shift now not every role right i mean you wouldn't 00:14:39.340 --> 00:14:41.740 want somebody to manage the claims operation 00:14:41.740 --> 00:14:44.559 to take a role that's probably not so beneficial 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:46.779 but somebody who led a medical policy team somebody 00:14:46.779 --> 00:14:52.389 that dealt with those sorts of things. And even 00:14:52.389 --> 00:14:55.009 on the reimbursement side, some of the new and 00:14:55.009 --> 00:14:57.629 evolving reimbursement models that are out there, 00:14:57.649 --> 00:15:00.190 that would be helpful to manufacturers as well. 00:15:01.070 --> 00:15:03.549 Do you think that not starting early enough with 00:15:03.549 --> 00:15:06.269 your reimbursement strategy and market access 00:15:06.269 --> 00:15:09.230 strategy, do you think that is the number one 00:15:09.230 --> 00:15:11.509 mistake that organizations make when it comes 00:15:11.509 --> 00:15:13.830 to your world of expertise or do you think it's 00:15:13.830 --> 00:15:17.379 something different? I think that is probably 00:15:17.379 --> 00:15:22.500 one, number one mistake that's made. It's not 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:24.940 a tragic mistake. I mean, you can come back from 00:15:24.940 --> 00:15:28.740 it, but it takes, you know, it makes things much 00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:32.120 longer. You know, I think the commitment to continued 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:36.419 clinical data development, right? I did one clinical 00:15:36.419 --> 00:15:40.379 study. That should be adequate for payers. It 00:15:40.379 --> 00:15:43.409 generally is not. And so sort of Okay, I'm going 00:15:43.409 --> 00:15:45.730 to finish this study. What's the next study? 00:15:45.870 --> 00:15:49.149 And sort of building out how am I going to continue 00:15:49.149 --> 00:15:53.389 to prove to payers that this product is one that 00:15:53.389 --> 00:15:57.289 they should cover. And I think a lot of times 00:15:57.289 --> 00:16:00.370 people think, oh, one clinical study, I'm done. 00:16:01.210 --> 00:16:05.230 And generally speaking, that's not true. And 00:16:05.230 --> 00:16:07.330 couple closely with that is sort of unrealistic 00:16:07.330 --> 00:16:09.610 expectation of how quickly payers are going to 00:16:09.610 --> 00:16:13.610 cover your technology. It's typically five to 00:16:13.610 --> 00:16:16.009 seven years depending on what it is you know 00:16:16.009 --> 00:16:18.730 if you if you care cancer it would be immediate 00:16:18.730 --> 00:16:22.210 but nobody's caring cancer you know there's a 00:16:22.210 --> 00:16:24.409 few products that come out in the last couple 00:16:24.409 --> 00:16:29.129 years that were really really game changers and. 00:16:30.169 --> 00:16:32.250 Pairs can quickly see the value and they get 00:16:32.250 --> 00:16:36.450 approved quickly things that are harder to tease 00:16:36.450 --> 00:16:39.279 out from a pair's view. what's the value of technology 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:41.179 those are the ones that need to continue investing 00:16:41.179 --> 00:16:43.940 in studies and things so i think i think yeah 00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:46.539 i think having it early so you can at least voice 00:16:46.539 --> 00:16:48.539 that input of okay we got one clinical study 00:16:48.539 --> 00:16:50.340 we've we've laid out the end points we think 00:16:50.340 --> 00:16:53.159 we're going to need but what's after that what 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:55.559 are how are we going to continue to prove that 00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:58.440 out as we go down this path and having a having 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:03.559 a plan of a realistic plan are the are the critical 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:06.369 components i think It's got to be a lot of guts 00:17:06.369 --> 00:17:09.589 on behalf of the manufacturer and the investors 00:17:09.589 --> 00:17:12.109 to not get the coverage that they're looking 00:17:12.109 --> 00:17:15.009 for yet. They've got good clinical data. They 00:17:15.009 --> 00:17:17.390 need more clinical data. And to keep investing, 00:17:17.589 --> 00:17:20.789 keep putting forth time and effort, you've got 00:17:20.789 --> 00:17:23.670 to have a ton of confidence, I would think. Yeah. 00:17:23.670 --> 00:17:25.430 I mean, I get this question a lot at all the 00:17:25.430 --> 00:17:28.490 places I've ever been. What do payers want? And 00:17:28.490 --> 00:17:33.500 my comedic comeback is what you don't have. So 00:17:33.500 --> 00:17:35.920 you got it they want an rct we got an rct well 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:38.640 now we want to well if you did to now we want 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.059 real world evidence will you get that we want. 00:17:41.539 --> 00:17:44.099 You know something else right it's it's it's 00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:47.039 a lot of times a moving bar. And each pair can 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:48.880 have a sort of a different viewpoint right there's 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.359 not one central. Clearing house repair coverage 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:57.420 right each pair individually and so you do kind 00:17:57.420 --> 00:18:01.440 of have to think through that like. My favorite 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.839 phrase is, so what? So I'm meeting with teams 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:06.240 of people and they're saying, well, our product 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:09.240 does this. And I say, so what? And I'm not saying 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:11.079 it to be mean. I'm saying that's what the pair's 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.900 gonna ask. Like you need to translate it into 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:16.880 what, into the value to them, right? So superior 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:19.200 patient outcomes is a clear, easy one, right? 00:18:19.940 --> 00:18:22.000 But when you started getting into that sort of 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:27.819 the sub, you know, shorter OR time, shorter earlier 00:18:27.819 --> 00:18:30.910 return to work, you know, But you know, it's 00:18:30.910 --> 00:18:33.470 it's prove it to me, you know Everybody turns 00:18:33.470 --> 00:18:35.750 into Missouri to show me state. Hey, they all 00:18:35.750 --> 00:18:38.789 want to you know I'm not gonna believe this because 00:18:38.789 --> 00:18:40.109 you told me you're gonna have to prove it to 00:18:40.109 --> 00:18:42.930 me. So I think I think you have to be really 00:18:42.930 --> 00:18:47.369 critical internally and You know, you need to 00:18:47.369 --> 00:18:49.589 be your own your own biggest critic as you're 00:18:49.589 --> 00:18:52.470 sort of rolling out to introduce the product 00:18:52.470 --> 00:18:56.190 to the market right don't assume that you know 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:59.420 because the engineer says it's amazing that everybody's 00:18:59.420 --> 00:19:01.220 going to view it that way, particularly from 00:19:01.220 --> 00:19:04.920 the purchasing perspective. That makes a lot 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:08.039 of sense. What about, you know, here we are in 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:10.180 2025, and I think about the course of your career, 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:13.819 you've seen so much evolve over the last 30 plus 00:19:13.819 --> 00:19:17.220 years or so. What's the biggest challenge for 00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:18.960 market access and reimbursement leaders here 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:23.680 in 2025? Wow. So when I started in this side 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.839 of the industry in 2005, I won't say it was easy 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:29.559 to get a meeting with a payer, but you could 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:31.220 get meetings with payers. You could sit down 00:19:31.220 --> 00:19:33.720 with them. You could present data. You could 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:35.920 bring a physician with you and then talk about 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:39.119 what they see from a patient needs standpoint. 00:19:39.700 --> 00:19:44.059 You could have those engagements. It's gotten 00:19:44.059 --> 00:19:47.440 really hard to get a meeting. Everybody wants 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.880 you to just send your data so you don't have 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:53.599 any discussion. You don't get any feedback in 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.809 terms of If they if they're not going to cover 00:19:56.809 --> 00:19:58.809 your product what are the gaps that they see 00:19:58.809 --> 00:20:03.769 it's really hard to get that feedback. I actually 00:20:03.769 --> 00:20:05.910 did one of these meetings last week which was 00:20:05.910 --> 00:20:09.109 surprising but we did it through a pretty circuitous 00:20:09.109 --> 00:20:12.890 route we actually went through. Our employee 00:20:12.890 --> 00:20:15.589 health plan broker to get the meeting with the 00:20:15.589 --> 00:20:20.069 pair. It was not where manufacturer we want to 00:20:20.069 --> 00:20:23.430 talk to a pair was as the as the. As the you 00:20:23.430 --> 00:20:25.849 know the insured group we went through a broker 00:20:25.849 --> 00:20:28.710 and we got a meeting and it was a good meeting 00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:34.509 But it was it was not easy And and I'm right 00:20:34.509 --> 00:20:36.869 in the middle right now of engaging three or 00:20:36.869 --> 00:20:38.650 four different payers trying to get meetings 00:20:38.650 --> 00:20:41.730 and the answer so far has been schedules are 00:20:41.730 --> 00:20:44.829 too full and I think one of the things that's 00:20:44.829 --> 00:20:48.150 happened is in 2005 people like me were pretty 00:20:48.150 --> 00:20:50.549 rare the big companies had a little companies 00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:55.309 didn't Now everybody, I say everybody, most companies 00:20:55.309 --> 00:20:59.710 have somebody like me reaching out to payers. 00:21:00.849 --> 00:21:04.089 And so if I were a payer, I would be pushing, 00:21:04.210 --> 00:21:05.789 like, I don't have time in the day to meet with 00:21:05.789 --> 00:21:08.230 every manufacturer that's out there. Right. So 00:21:08.230 --> 00:21:10.750 that's gotten, that's gotten problematic. And 00:21:10.750 --> 00:21:13.230 then COVID, I mean, COVID, you know, is the great 00:21:13.230 --> 00:21:17.250 excuse for a lot of things. But it has made getting 00:21:17.250 --> 00:21:19.269 in -person meetings really hard. It got easy 00:21:19.269 --> 00:21:22.660 for them to say no to that. And, you know, video 00:21:22.660 --> 00:21:24.740 conference. So the ones that we have now, the 00:21:24.740 --> 00:21:26.400 ones, the few that we've been able to engage 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.339 are all video conference and nobody turns their 00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:31.220 camera on. So you don't know whether they're 00:21:31.220 --> 00:21:35.279 engaged or not engaged. Um, so it's, it's gotten 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.140 really tough. That's not to say you shouldn't 00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:39.480 do it and you shouldn't try, uh, and that there 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:41.900 aren't ways like going through your broker to 00:21:41.900 --> 00:21:44.779 get meetings. Um, but the good old days of just 00:21:44.779 --> 00:21:47.839 calling and them saying, yes, come on. Or the 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:51.599 other strategy that we employed a lot was. Really 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:53.720 just wind up a doctor a doctor really believes 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:55.720 in the technology and thinks it's best for patients 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.839 wind them up prepare them and have them contact 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:02.740 their local pair. They could get a meeting that's 00:22:02.740 --> 00:22:06.200 gotten hard. Nobody wants to meet anymore so 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:09.839 that's made it difficult i think. So a lot to 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:13.859 unpack there in the first place i go is since 00:22:13.859 --> 00:22:15.960 this united healthcare thing happened with the 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:19.779 shooting. Have you seen an immediate change with 00:22:19.779 --> 00:22:23.839 response from payers as far as trying to hide 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.819 maybe some of their medical directors or executives 00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:28.839 internally? Have they made it harder since then? 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:32.880 Have you noticed? In the last couple of weeks, 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:35.539 I've been researching a couple of payers that 00:22:35.539 --> 00:22:38.220 we're trying to engage, and they don't have much 00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:40.220 LinkedIn presence. I don't know whether they 00:22:40.220 --> 00:22:45.470 did before or not. My suspicion is those that 00:22:45.470 --> 00:22:48.630 were on linkedin are off like are off now those 00:22:48.630 --> 00:22:53.089 that weren't you know are coming on. I don't 00:22:53.089 --> 00:22:55.109 know that it's made it harder to connect with 00:22:55.109 --> 00:22:57.450 payers i can tell you the engagement that i had 00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:01.470 the other day. They seemed much more engaged. 00:23:02.710 --> 00:23:04.630 Then the last time i spoke to this particular 00:23:04.630 --> 00:23:07.170 pair that i was able to do the same thing there 00:23:07.170 --> 00:23:10.170 my last employer use my broker to get a meeting. 00:23:11.450 --> 00:23:14.390 Not the same exact people but same organization 00:23:14.390 --> 00:23:17.569 and i can tell you they seemed more engaged more 00:23:17.569 --> 00:23:23.089 friendly. More interested now that could be totally 00:23:23.089 --> 00:23:25.670 a coincidence it could be that that is a different 00:23:25.670 --> 00:23:28.930 group of people and so maybe they were. But i 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:32.470 didn't get the miss was a big pair this is national 00:23:32.470 --> 00:23:34.769 i don't drop names this is a national player. 00:23:35.710 --> 00:23:39.309 I didn't get the where big or small. leave us 00:23:39.309 --> 00:23:41.630 alone feeling that I got last time that I talked 00:23:41.630 --> 00:23:44.170 to him. So I'm hoping that that's a trend that 00:23:44.170 --> 00:23:46.589 we'll see. Look, I want to state for the record, 00:23:47.009 --> 00:23:49.789 that man should not have lost his life over the 00:23:49.789 --> 00:23:51.470 challenges that people are having with health 00:23:51.470 --> 00:23:53.990 insurers and dealing with claims and issues, 00:23:54.150 --> 00:23:56.309 right? I mean, that's absolutely the wrong way 00:23:56.309 --> 00:23:58.849 that we should go about trying to drive change. 00:23:59.170 --> 00:24:02.890 But it does seem to based on this one interaction, 00:24:03.089 --> 00:24:05.289 maybe I've had some change in the positive direction. 00:24:05.450 --> 00:24:08.039 And that, you know, my hope is Not the killing 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:11.079 itself, but sort of the reaction. And if you 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:13.660 go on any social media platform these days, you're 00:24:13.660 --> 00:24:16.920 hearing more and more horror stories. I'm sure 00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:19.299 some are made up, but I'm guessing most are real. 00:24:19.940 --> 00:24:22.680 And my hope is that the payers are hearing that 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:24.559 too and saying, look, we've got to work on this. 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.140 The other thing that was interesting, the other 00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:30.680 day, a group of shareholders filed some sort 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:34.380 of request to UnitedHealthcare asking for a report 00:24:34.380 --> 00:24:39.529 on how denials are affecting their image and 00:24:39.529 --> 00:24:45.869 the stock itself. And so once the shareholders 00:24:45.869 --> 00:24:48.130 start asking those sorts of questions, will we 00:24:48.130 --> 00:24:49.970 see some real change and some real openness? 00:24:50.349 --> 00:24:54.069 My hope is yes. I sure hope so as well. And then 00:24:54.069 --> 00:24:56.269 I was thinking about being in your position and 00:24:56.269 --> 00:24:57.809 not being able to get these meetings and having 00:24:57.809 --> 00:25:00.789 to rely on blindly setting your data and hoping 00:25:00.789 --> 00:25:03.190 that somebody sees enough to say, yeah, okay, 00:25:03.190 --> 00:25:06.339 let's talk. And the pressure that someone like 00:25:06.339 --> 00:25:08.380 yourself must feel that you've got a job to do 00:25:08.380 --> 00:25:11.200 and your job is to move things forward and gain 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:14.420 access, gain coverage. You've got an executive 00:25:14.420 --> 00:25:16.259 team who's counting on you saying, what is going 00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:18.920 on? Let's go, let's go. You're being faced with 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:22.579 stonewalling. How do you handle that? Well, you 00:25:22.579 --> 00:25:25.579 know, so what I generally tell my employees is, 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:28.720 you know, we can't guarantee an outcome. I mean, 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.579 we don't own the payers. We, you know, we can, 00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:36.630 we can. Try to understand their viewpoint and 00:25:36.630 --> 00:25:39.509 provide them as much as we can we can't own what 00:25:39.509 --> 00:25:42.150 you know we the outcome is not something we can 00:25:42.150 --> 00:25:46.130 control we can control the f. Can we can control. 00:25:47.809 --> 00:25:51.210 Okay they said no what's the next approach and 00:25:51.210 --> 00:25:54.109 what's the next approach and so. You know i think 00:25:54.109 --> 00:25:56.869 you know with my leadership team at at syrupy 00:25:56.869 --> 00:26:00.329 takes what you know what we try to do is is show 00:26:00.329 --> 00:26:03.019 that look we're doing the right things. If we 00:26:03.019 --> 00:26:04.960 continue to do the right things good things will 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:07.599 happen right i mean it because you can't i mean 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:10.519 there's not a formula that says you know one 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:13.559 plus one is two and if we. If we do one plus 00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:16.240 one will always get to it just doesn't work that 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:20.140 way and so what you have to do is is rather than 00:26:20.140 --> 00:26:23.299 say. You know a pair said no i give up when you 00:26:23.299 --> 00:26:25.579 keep going you keep trying you keep saying you 00:26:25.579 --> 00:26:29.559 in for what i do is i is i. work with our clinical 00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:31.700 team and they say, look, they're telling me we 00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:33.519 don't have enough evidence. We have one RCT. 00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:36.420 It's like, well, what else can we do? Can we 00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:38.660 collect real -world evidence? Can we do a retrospective 00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:41.480 study and start thinking strategically there 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:44.339 to say, okay, I mean, no is not no forever. How 00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:46.220 do we change that no to a yes? Probably a lot 00:26:46.220 --> 00:26:48.819 like the sales cycle, right? You know, just because 00:26:48.819 --> 00:26:50.500 the doctor says no doesn't mean you don't go 00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:55.299 see them again. 100%. And I think that what you're 00:26:55.299 --> 00:26:58.390 saying too is, yeah, it's much... much harder, 00:26:58.549 --> 00:27:02.769 but people buy based on the value that they see, 00:27:02.890 --> 00:27:04.569 right? And people like to buy, they don't like 00:27:04.569 --> 00:27:07.410 to be sold. That's how sales works. And so in 00:27:07.410 --> 00:27:09.069 the sales world with the doctor, you've got to 00:27:09.069 --> 00:27:10.950 demonstrate enough value it has how it's going 00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:13.789 to help them help their patients. Same thing 00:27:13.789 --> 00:27:15.890 here. It's like, if you make the payer's life 00:27:15.890 --> 00:27:18.049 a little bit easier somehow by giving them the 00:27:18.049 --> 00:27:19.930 evidence that they need to make the justification 00:27:19.930 --> 00:27:22.640 on their end. Everybody's lives become easier, 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.839 but I can imagine it's got to be very very frustrating 00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.039 More often than not bang your head against the 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:28.700 wall or try and at least get the communication 00:27:28.700 --> 00:27:31.759 going Yeah, it can be frustrating and sort of 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:34.440 the other frustration is a lot of times you need 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.099 surgeon demand like I mentioned winding the doctor 00:27:37.099 --> 00:27:39.220 up and sitting him in the room I'm not talking 00:27:39.220 --> 00:27:41.579 about that I'm talking about a lot of pay a lot 00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:44.099 of physicians saying I need access to this for 00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:47.420 this patient for this reason and You know if 00:27:47.420 --> 00:27:50.319 you go to a pair you're lucky enough to get a 00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:52.559 meeting and they tell you we don't get any appeals. 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.279 So our policy must be correct that's the worst 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:57.400 feeling in the world because that means that. 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:01.059 Your your customer base is either not sold or 00:28:01.059 --> 00:28:02.700 willing to put the effort and to try to help 00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:05.480 you drive to a coverage decision so there's a 00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:09.980 bit of a there's a bit of. You know about a top 00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:12.799 down bottom up strategy where you attack the 00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:15.380 pair from. Attach one other word but you approach 00:28:15.380 --> 00:28:17.700 the pair from the industry perspective within 00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:20.160 unique unique grassroots demand for the product. 00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:22.440 You need physicians calling the priest or if 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:25.660 they get tonight. Doing appeals saying this is 00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:28.160 why this patient needs the technology and so 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:29.779 that you're sort of pushing the pair from two 00:28:29.779 --> 00:28:32.660 directions and so so you do have to work collaborative 00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:34.359 with your sales team right if the sales team 00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:36.559 is telling you look i can't sell it because we're 00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:38.960 not getting approvals. Do you need to be back 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:40.460 in with the sales were saying what can we get 00:28:40.460 --> 00:28:42.890 some people to submit appeals. Cause appeals 00:28:42.890 --> 00:28:45.930 cost payers money. Right. And if you can get 00:28:45.930 --> 00:28:47.990 them spending enough money on appeals and if 00:28:47.990 --> 00:28:50.750 they're losing those appeals at external review 00:28:50.750 --> 00:28:52.970 or other places, then they're more likely to 00:28:52.970 --> 00:28:54.750 change their policy. But if they're never hearing 00:28:54.750 --> 00:28:57.089 about your technology from anybody, why change 00:28:57.089 --> 00:28:58.869 the policy? I mean, it's, you know, it's a tree 00:28:58.869 --> 00:29:01.569 that falls in the woods with no one around. Right. 00:29:01.589 --> 00:29:04.390 It makes no sound. I mean, you need that noise 00:29:04.390 --> 00:29:06.410 from, from the market. So you have to do a bit 00:29:06.410 --> 00:29:12.869 of driving for both ends. a double -edged question 00:29:12.869 --> 00:29:15.269 for you. One is about your own career and your 00:29:15.269 --> 00:29:17.670 leadership. The other one is about leading people, 00:29:17.730 --> 00:29:19.130 and we're going to start with your own career. 00:29:20.049 --> 00:29:22.390 You know, you've held some pretty significant 00:29:22.390 --> 00:29:26.329 roles over the years. I mentioned you had some 00:29:26.329 --> 00:29:28.549 great exposure at Medtronic. You were leading 00:29:28.549 --> 00:29:30.970 the program for Cochlear, or at least a huge 00:29:30.970 --> 00:29:33.410 part of it, from what I know. You've done it, 00:29:33.410 --> 00:29:35.789 you know, kind of in the startup small organization 00:29:35.789 --> 00:29:38.539 world. Can you point out pivotal moments in your 00:29:38.539 --> 00:29:40.180 career that you think help catalyze your career 00:29:40.180 --> 00:29:44.900 and kind of help you get to the next level? So 00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:48.200 I think, you know, the first thing that I did 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:52.319 is when I was at Blue Cross, my first job there, 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.460 I was a medical underwriter. So they had me reviewing 00:29:55.460 --> 00:29:57.839 people's medical history to decide whether they 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:00.579 got insurance or not. This is before HIPAA. So 00:30:00.579 --> 00:30:02.500 we could review individual medical history and 00:30:02.500 --> 00:30:04.420 we could say yes or no to whether we cover you 00:30:04.420 --> 00:30:07.250 or not. Why i was qualified that for that i have 00:30:07.250 --> 00:30:09.509 no idea i mean i was a history major medical 00:30:09.509 --> 00:30:11.750 history maybe they somebody got confused but 00:30:11.750 --> 00:30:13.589 they stuck me in that job no medical training 00:30:13.589 --> 00:30:18.230 and it was most miserable job i've ever had cuz 00:30:18.230 --> 00:30:20.130 you had to actually tell people i couldn't have 00:30:20.130 --> 00:30:22.890 health insurance and people were very upset people 00:30:22.890 --> 00:30:26.089 would cry you could understand right that's i 00:30:26.089 --> 00:30:27.910 would have nightmares about the phone ringing 00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.339 and having to talk to people about that as a 00:30:31.339 --> 00:30:35.519 as a twenty two year old i'm pretty tough job. 00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:40.640 But blue cross posted a position for their manager 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:44.920 coordinator. And i applied for it so here's the 00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:48.160 pivotal point they told me that i had to do a 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.099 presentation to a group of executives as part 00:30:51.099 --> 00:30:56.839 of the application process. And. I was petrified. 00:30:57.220 --> 00:31:00.259 I did not want, I wanted to pull my application 00:31:00.259 --> 00:31:05.579 from the job and my better half, my wife, coached 00:31:05.579 --> 00:31:08.400 me up and convinced me to keep my hat in the 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.579 ring. Um, I put together a presentation. She 00:31:12.579 --> 00:31:15.180 helped me. This is back before PowerPoint was 00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:17.980 a big thing. She was the PowerPoint guru. She 00:31:17.980 --> 00:31:19.740 helped me put together a presentation and we 00:31:19.740 --> 00:31:22.539 really, as a team, she helped prepare me for 00:31:22.539 --> 00:31:25.819 this, for this interview. did the interview, 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:31.160 did the presentation, got the job. So now I've 00:31:31.160 --> 00:31:34.200 presented to an executive team successfully. 00:31:34.779 --> 00:31:36.420 So you get a little bit of confidence, right? 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.720 Taking those small opportunities, at the time 00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:43.440 it seemed big, but in hindsight, small opportunities 00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:48.240 to present yourself in a good light to organizational 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:50.609 leadership. But also to sort of stretch your 00:31:50.609 --> 00:31:53.529 comfort in your and your and in your and your 00:31:53.529 --> 00:31:56.029 self -imposed boundaries right to say no you 00:31:56.029 --> 00:31:59.049 can do this so once i did that i was like okay 00:31:59.049 --> 00:32:02.210 you know i don't feel like i do a lot of things 00:32:02.210 --> 00:32:04.609 now all of a sudden that i wasn't maybe so sure 00:32:04.609 --> 00:32:10.450 that i could do um so that was one um i left 00:32:10.450 --> 00:32:13.529 blue cross and went to the mississippi hospital 00:32:13.529 --> 00:32:16.950 association and they had created an hmo I had 00:32:16.950 --> 00:32:19.089 15 hospital members and they were going to build 00:32:19.089 --> 00:32:21.829 out an HMO and I was going to be one of the first 00:32:21.829 --> 00:32:25.509 employees. And my first day on the job, I had 00:32:25.509 --> 00:32:27.650 just completed my onboarding paperwork. They 00:32:27.650 --> 00:32:31.150 took me to a meeting, sat me in front of a hospital 00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:34.009 administrator who had a bunch of questions about 00:32:34.009 --> 00:32:35.490 what we were going to do and how we were going 00:32:35.490 --> 00:32:38.769 to do it. And they basically said, this is Mickey. 00:32:38.829 --> 00:32:41.970 He can answer all your questions day one. So 00:32:41.970 --> 00:32:44.150 again, you're just sort of shoved into, you know, 00:32:44.150 --> 00:32:48.740 into it. thinker swam and fortunately I swam, 00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:53.119 swam, swam. That's the right word. But again, 00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:57.339 you're sort of a person who runs a big hospital 00:32:57.339 --> 00:32:59.819 in Mississippi. You sit down with them and you 00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:04.819 have a good conversation. They're very happy 00:33:04.819 --> 00:33:07.880 with what you've shared with them. It gives you 00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:10.000 confidence. So again, you're, okay, I can do 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:14.789 that. Then in that company, I met with the board 00:33:14.789 --> 00:33:16.730 every quarter and had to present to the board 00:33:16.730 --> 00:33:20.029 every quarter. So again, not, you know, not United 00:33:20.029 --> 00:33:22.069 Healthcare's board, but, you know, in a smaller 00:33:22.069 --> 00:33:25.190 scale, it's pretty important people. And you 00:33:25.190 --> 00:33:27.490 have that conversation. And so, you know, throughout 00:33:27.490 --> 00:33:30.450 my career, I've sort of reflected on those things 00:33:30.450 --> 00:33:33.109 and said, okay, you took another step. So you 00:33:33.109 --> 00:33:34.589 don't have to go back down, right? You don't 00:33:34.589 --> 00:33:36.569 have to go back down a step. Like you can, you 00:33:36.569 --> 00:33:38.890 can hold a conversation with a board of directors 00:33:38.890 --> 00:33:41.069 of a company. These are smart people, right? 00:33:41.329 --> 00:33:43.720 And you can hold your own. Okay. I don't have 00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:45.500 to worry about that anymore. So what's the next 00:33:45.500 --> 00:33:48.519 one? So I've sort of used those as building blocks. 00:33:49.579 --> 00:33:51.859 Went back to Blue Cross, had to build this network. 00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:54.359 So I had to meet with state regulators, state 00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:56.359 legislators. I presented to the Mississippi State 00:33:56.359 --> 00:34:01.700 Legislature. Again, another like petrified. Do 00:34:01.700 --> 00:34:04.420 the presentation. And you're like, I mean, it 00:34:04.420 --> 00:34:06.440 can't get any harder than that. I mean, these 00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:08.559 are all politicians and they all have they all 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:10.780 had opinions. And, you know, they were all doing 00:34:10.780 --> 00:34:13.670 their political thing to make points. But you 00:34:13.670 --> 00:34:18.409 did a good job. So, okay, I can do that. And 00:34:18.409 --> 00:34:21.130 so I've tried to be conscious of those things, 00:34:21.150 --> 00:34:23.289 right? And I've looked for opportunities to stick 00:34:23.289 --> 00:34:26.449 myself in uncomfortable positions, right? After 00:34:26.449 --> 00:34:28.469 that very first one where my wife made me do 00:34:28.469 --> 00:34:30.469 it, I've looked for those opportunities, because 00:34:30.469 --> 00:34:35.130 you can see the development and the growth. I 00:34:35.130 --> 00:34:38.690 want to jump in here, Mickey, because, so a couple 00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:40.349 things. Hopefully you've thanked your wife up 00:34:40.349 --> 00:34:45.449 and down over the years for because in essence 00:34:45.449 --> 00:34:47.289 that shaped the trajectory of your career. And 00:34:47.289 --> 00:34:48.670 who knows where you would have been if you didn't 00:34:48.670 --> 00:34:51.829 take that interview. I'd still be sitting in 00:34:51.829 --> 00:34:54.389 that cubicle. No, I don't think that would have 00:34:54.389 --> 00:34:55.469 been the case. They probably would have gotten 00:34:55.469 --> 00:34:58.409 rid of me after a while. But no, I thank her 00:34:58.409 --> 00:35:00.429 every day. I mean, you know, and I think that's 00:35:00.429 --> 00:35:03.130 important, right? Even if you're not married, 00:35:03.130 --> 00:35:06.909 you need to have people in your life that are 00:35:06.909 --> 00:35:09.869 your hype man or your hype woman, right? People 00:35:09.869 --> 00:35:12.750 that believe in you and that believe you. Maybe 00:35:12.750 --> 00:35:14.389 believe in you more than yourself. It's always 00:35:14.389 --> 00:35:17.190 good to have those people in your life. The second 00:35:17.190 --> 00:35:21.710 piece takeaway, and I can now look anybody in 00:35:21.710 --> 00:35:24.429 the eye with absolute certainty and say that 00:35:24.429 --> 00:35:27.869 this is the most common theme amongst executives, 00:35:28.389 --> 00:35:31.070 is that every single person I've ever asked that 00:35:31.070 --> 00:35:32.670 question to, hey, what are the pivotal moments 00:35:32.670 --> 00:35:34.230 or why do you think you got to where you are? 00:35:34.650 --> 00:35:37.650 where you are today, say, also, I was willing 00:35:37.650 --> 00:35:40.190 to take risk. I got outside of my comfort zone. 00:35:40.289 --> 00:35:42.030 I took on challenge that I didn't know what the 00:35:42.030 --> 00:35:44.849 heck I was doing, but I figured it out. I gained 00:35:44.849 --> 00:35:47.449 some confidence. That created exposure, which 00:35:47.449 --> 00:35:50.269 then gave others more confidence to give me more 00:35:50.269 --> 00:35:52.610 responsibility. And here you are saying, hey, 00:35:52.650 --> 00:35:54.610 there's three different moments I can point to 00:35:54.610 --> 00:35:57.030 at least by the snap of a finger where I got 00:35:57.030 --> 00:35:59.150 outside my comfort zone. And then I started to 00:35:59.150 --> 00:36:00.889 do it on purpose because I knew it was good for 00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:04.809 me. Yeah, I mean, that's a great way of summarizing 00:36:04.809 --> 00:36:08.090 it. I mean, you know, the word that pops to mind 00:36:08.090 --> 00:36:10.710 is intentional. I mean, you have to be intentional, 00:36:10.969 --> 00:36:14.630 right? I want to step back and say there's nothing 00:36:14.630 --> 00:36:16.250 wrong with somebody who wants to do the same 00:36:16.250 --> 00:36:20.230 job for 30 years. I have no issue. Like, the 00:36:20.230 --> 00:36:22.489 world needs people that are completely happy 00:36:22.489 --> 00:36:25.630 doing what they're doing. But if you have goals 00:36:25.630 --> 00:36:28.309 that, you know, if you want to grow in an organization 00:36:28.309 --> 00:36:32.289 or grow in an industry, then you do have to challenge 00:36:32.289 --> 00:36:35.929 yourself, right? You do have to put yourself 00:36:35.929 --> 00:36:38.769 in uncomfortable positions. Not in positions 00:36:38.769 --> 00:36:41.309 you're not prepared for. Don't do anything rash. 00:36:41.750 --> 00:36:43.610 You don't go to the Mississippi State Legislature 00:36:43.610 --> 00:36:46.130 and you're not ready for it. You have to be honest 00:36:46.130 --> 00:36:48.929 with yourself. But if you're ready for it, then 00:36:48.929 --> 00:36:52.769 take it. Do it. Great experience. So, that's 00:36:52.769 --> 00:36:56.110 the way I think about it. So, we've got to wrap 00:36:56.110 --> 00:36:58.230 up shortly, but I've only got a couple other 00:36:58.230 --> 00:36:59.889 things that we absolutely have to ask you about. 00:36:59.909 --> 00:37:03.559 Okay. And that is, put yourself in the shoes 00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:05.940 of a director right now, who's a director of 00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:07.880 reimbursement, director of market access, whatever 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.900 it may be. And they aspire to become a vice president. 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:14.340 What do you think are the key differences in 00:37:14.340 --> 00:37:16.820 responsibility or mindset that maybe they're 00:37:16.820 --> 00:37:18.360 not necessarily prepared for, but they would 00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:21.639 like to be? Yeah, that's a great question because 00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:25.760 I've been in a lot of situations personally where 00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:27.900 you think you're ready for the next step, but 00:37:27.900 --> 00:37:33.449 the organization doesn't. Or, or you're questioning, 00:37:33.869 --> 00:37:36.909 how do I get ready for the next step? Um, you 00:37:36.909 --> 00:37:41.150 know, and I think the big difference is, um, 00:37:41.610 --> 00:37:44.670 the amount of information that you have to go 00:37:44.670 --> 00:37:46.690 through and the speed at which you have to go 00:37:46.690 --> 00:37:50.110 through it to get to a decision. Right. So, um, 00:37:50.110 --> 00:37:51.730 you know, as you, as you're, as you're down the 00:37:51.730 --> 00:37:54.829 organization, right, you have more time to assess 00:37:54.829 --> 00:37:59.150 that situation, the data, the facts. and come 00:37:59.150 --> 00:38:01.730 up with an idea by the time it gets to you as 00:38:01.730 --> 00:38:03.449 a vice president you have a general you don't 00:38:03.449 --> 00:38:06.050 have a lot of time. And you got a lot of people 00:38:06.050 --> 00:38:08.269 asking you a lot of questions you gotta be able 00:38:08.269 --> 00:38:13.329 to filter quickly and get to get to a decision 00:38:13.329 --> 00:38:16.690 and the thing that i would tell people as directors. 00:38:17.409 --> 00:38:19.429 If you're presenting to executives think about 00:38:19.429 --> 00:38:23.110 how executives want to see information. Right. 00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:25.159 If they ask you what time it is, don't build 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:26.780 the clock for them. They trust that you know 00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:28.260 how to build it. They want to know what time 00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:30.920 it is. So give them the time. And if they have 00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:33.059 questions, be prepared to answer how you build 00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:36.219 the clock. But I think sometimes directors, when 00:38:36.219 --> 00:38:38.079 they're presenting to executives, which is how 00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:40.219 executives get an opportunity and exposure to 00:38:40.219 --> 00:38:44.019 you to see if you're ready, is they feel like 00:38:44.019 --> 00:38:47.440 they're in there justifying their opinion. They're 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:49.619 justifying their bona fides. They're justifying, 00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:53.079 you know, Everything before they get to the recommendation 00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:55.880 and I would I would reverse it. You know, here's 00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:57.300 the problem. Here's what I think we should do. 00:38:57.300 --> 00:39:00.699 And here's why I think we should do it. And it 00:39:00.699 --> 00:39:01.980 might be the shortest meeting you ever had and 00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:04.539 be like, I guess smart or that or that that person 00:39:04.539 --> 00:39:07.800 is smart. But if you go in there and start building 00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:09.500 the clock, I mean, they're thinking about all 00:39:09.500 --> 00:39:12.239 the 10 ,000 other things they've got to do. So 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:15.139 so cut to the chase. I think that's how people 00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:18.280 should think about preparing to be an executive, 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:20.420 because that's what happens. I mean, you don't 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:22.360 i don't have time to understand the clock like 00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:24.340 i heard you did i heard a bunch of really smart 00:39:24.340 --> 00:39:27.880 people to build the clock i just need the key 00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:31.119 data points that i need to make a decision um 00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:36.039 and if i have questions i shouldn't be uh you 00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:38.360 know fearful that i'm going to look bad by asking 00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:40.940 question i'm an executive i mean i i'm going 00:39:40.940 --> 00:39:43.619 to do that uh and so people should think about 00:39:43.619 --> 00:39:47.050 it that way right is think about Because in the 00:39:47.050 --> 00:39:48.409 end, I mean, the difference between somebody 00:39:48.409 --> 00:39:51.289 who is a very good director in an organization 00:39:51.289 --> 00:39:54.170 who's leading strategy to some level, who's driving 00:39:54.170 --> 00:39:57.969 people to results, that next step to vice president. 00:39:59.010 --> 00:40:01.929 I have this sort of personal view that like a 00:40:01.929 --> 00:40:04.730 vice president organization is 90 % future and 00:40:04.730 --> 00:40:09.369 10 % current, right? I'm looking ahead. I'm trying 00:40:09.369 --> 00:40:11.070 to figure out the next thing about 90 % of the 00:40:11.070 --> 00:40:16.989 time. A director's probably 60, 40. Right. They're 00:40:16.989 --> 00:40:20.329 thinking about the future a little bit and maybe 00:40:20.329 --> 00:40:23.090 40, 60 and the managers are almost day to day. 00:40:23.170 --> 00:40:25.510 Like I'm thinking about today. I drive my team. 00:40:25.929 --> 00:40:27.989 So I think about it that way. And so they need 00:40:27.989 --> 00:40:30.489 to be thinking, you know, what's, you know, a 00:40:30.489 --> 00:40:32.010 good director should be thinking about what's 00:40:32.010 --> 00:40:35.190 next and helping the vice president with that 00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:37.110 strategy. And that that's what prepares you. 00:40:37.329 --> 00:40:40.789 I think that's Awesome, awesome insight. I love 00:40:40.789 --> 00:40:42.969 what you said about making sure that you know 00:40:42.969 --> 00:40:45.170 your audience, not bogging them down with unnecessary 00:40:45.170 --> 00:40:47.809 detail, starting with the end in mind, hey, here's 00:40:47.809 --> 00:40:50.090 the problem, here's what we recommend, and then 00:40:50.090 --> 00:40:52.469 being able to field questions, because an executive 00:40:52.469 --> 00:40:54.050 will ask the questions they need to ask until 00:40:54.050 --> 00:40:56.469 they get to a level of comfort where they feel 00:40:56.469 --> 00:41:01.989 poised to sign off or make a decision. And a 00:41:01.989 --> 00:41:03.670 lot of the feedback that I've gotten over time 00:41:03.670 --> 00:41:06.050 too with interviews and stuff is, man, we got 00:41:06.050 --> 00:41:08.750 lost in the details. or they were either too 00:41:08.750 --> 00:41:12.710 vague or we got lost in the details or they aren't 00:41:12.710 --> 00:41:14.329 necessarily recognizing the audience in front 00:41:14.329 --> 00:41:16.769 of them. And you're right. Somebody with that 00:41:16.769 --> 00:41:18.630 much responsibility has so many things on their 00:41:18.630 --> 00:41:21.170 mind and they need to think quickly and they 00:41:21.170 --> 00:41:23.829 need to react quickly. So give them the juice 00:41:23.829 --> 00:41:26.510 of what they need and kind of leave the peripheral 00:41:26.510 --> 00:41:28.250 stuff unless they ask for it. It makes a lot 00:41:28.250 --> 00:41:32.079 of sense. And if you don't... if you start building 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:34.380 the clock, you're not going to get to your recommendation 00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:35.639 because there are going to be so many questions 00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:38.260 about how the clock's built, right? I mean, you 00:41:38.260 --> 00:41:41.840 know, so I think I tend to think do it in reverse 00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:45.639 the way that most people typically do it. What 00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:47.800 makes an outstanding reimbursement or a market 00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:50.239 access professional in your mind, like a true 00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:52.719 outlier versus kind of like the run of the mill 00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:59.940 path? I mean, somebody that's always thinking 00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:04.159 of new ways to attack the problem, right? You're 00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:06.139 going to, okay, we want to get this pair to change 00:42:06.139 --> 00:42:10.000 their policy, we're going to do this. But almost, 00:42:10.659 --> 00:42:13.079 and without fail, that's not going to work. Whatever 00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:16.199 that first strategy is not, or was, is not going 00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:18.400 to work. So you need to almost build in pivot 00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.059 points, like, so when that doesn't work, we're 00:42:20.059 --> 00:42:21.420 going to do this. When that doesn't work, we're 00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:23.539 going to do that. So the person that thinks that 00:42:23.539 --> 00:42:28.690 way, who has backup plans, plan B, plan C, I 00:42:28.690 --> 00:42:34.570 think is better than the average reimbursement 00:42:34.570 --> 00:42:37.889 person, market access person. And then a person 00:42:37.889 --> 00:42:43.989 who is driven, right? So the worst thing that 00:42:43.989 --> 00:42:46.090 you can have on your team is someone who's like, 00:42:46.190 --> 00:42:50.880 yep, they said no. They said, no, but here's 00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:52.599 what I'm going to do. I'm going to continue. 00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:55.219 I mean, it's probably not dissimilar to salespeople 00:42:55.219 --> 00:42:58.340 in terms of the energy, right? You're going to 00:42:58.340 --> 00:43:01.239 get a lot of nos, but you got to keep fighting 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:04.860 for some yeses. And so having that internal drive, 00:43:06.699 --> 00:43:09.719 you know, for me personally, I don't want somebody 00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:12.659 who calls me after every failure and says, what 00:43:12.659 --> 00:43:16.070 should I do now? Call me and tell me it didn't 00:43:16.070 --> 00:43:17.630 work. And what do you think you're going to do? 00:43:17.630 --> 00:43:19.230 And I might throw in a different strategy, but 00:43:19.230 --> 00:43:21.429 don't come to me for all the answers, right? 00:43:21.909 --> 00:43:23.469 Pick up some on your own. So that's the kind 00:43:23.469 --> 00:43:25.909 of person. So it's sort of the intangibles, I 00:43:25.909 --> 00:43:28.909 guess. I mean, it's not a particular education 00:43:28.909 --> 00:43:34.889 necessarily. It's more that inner drive. I was 00:43:34.889 --> 00:43:37.010 just going to say, you can't teach that. That's 00:43:37.010 --> 00:43:40.389 innate. And that's why there's awesome salespeople 00:43:40.389 --> 00:43:43.840 too, right? continue to grind are tenacious. 00:43:43.900 --> 00:43:47.119 They see the bigger why. They've got tough, callous 00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:49.039 skin, and they understand that this is just part 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:51.579 of the game. And I think that's probably why 00:43:51.579 --> 00:43:54.219 you see so many people go on from sales to get 00:43:54.219 --> 00:43:56.099 into market access and be successful, because 00:43:56.099 --> 00:43:58.079 that's their foundation. That's who they are. 00:43:58.340 --> 00:44:01.980 Right. This is awesome, man. I can't thank you 00:44:01.980 --> 00:44:03.860 enough for being here. You've dropped a ton of 00:44:03.860 --> 00:44:06.320 nuggets today. What are you excited about at 00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:10.719 Serapetix right now? What's going on? I think 00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:12.659 we're a company that's poised to do some really 00:44:12.659 --> 00:44:15.360 good things. We've got a product on the market. 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.820 It's been on the market for a number of years. 00:44:16.820 --> 00:44:19.099 It continues to grow, which is nice in orthopedic 00:44:19.099 --> 00:44:23.019 space. And then a new product with the FDA waiting 00:44:23.019 --> 00:44:26.440 on their approval. And so launching the new product 00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:29.960 is exciting. But a product that's been on the 00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:33.420 market for six years and continues to grow is 00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:36.260 a nice place to be. So I think there's a lot 00:44:36.260 --> 00:44:38.659 of things exciting about therapeutics right now. 00:44:39.589 --> 00:44:43.849 but primarily those two factors. Great stuff, 00:44:43.969 --> 00:44:45.429 man. Well, like all the other shows, if you're 00:44:45.429 --> 00:44:47.170 okay with it, what we'll do in the show notes 00:44:47.170 --> 00:44:50.269 is put a link to your LinkedIn profile and a 00:44:50.269 --> 00:44:52.909 link to Serapetix and encourage anyone who is 00:44:52.909 --> 00:44:55.250 intrigued to reach out and learn more to do so. 00:44:55.570 --> 00:44:58.429 That would be great. Thank you, Mitch. All right. 00:44:58.829 --> 00:45:00.710 Mickey, thanks so much for being here and for 00:45:00.710 --> 00:45:02.090 all the gold that you shared today. I really 00:45:02.090 --> 00:45:04.210 do appreciate it. Well, thanks for the invitation. 00:45:04.389 --> 00:45:06.050 I really appreciate it. I've enjoyed the conversation. 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:10.679 Thanks for listening to the MedTech Talent Lab 00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:14.719 Podcast. For more content -rich episodes, log 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:18.760 on to TheAnthonyMichaelGroup .com or subscribe 00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:21.960 to the show on your favorite podcast platform.