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There we go. Good morning. This is the Reading Instruction Show, and I have a very, very

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special guest in my studio, Susan Vincent. Susan, who are you?

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Well, I'm happy to be here. It's great to chat with you, and I always love chatting

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literacy. So my name is Susan Vincent, and I am an experienced teacher, i.e. old, but

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I've been around early literacy for over 30 years. At 30 years, I stopped counting,

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so I'm not sure how far past that I am, but I've been a first grade classroom teacher,

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a reading specialist, a literacy coach, and I currently teach at the university level

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teaching pre-service teachers. So that's who I am in a nutshell. I'm in Oxford, Ohio, at

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Miami University, which is where I teach. Wow. Experience and knowledge. Well, Susan,

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if you could say anything to the science of reading advocates, what in the heck would

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you say? Well, I'm glad you asked, because I do love talking about this. And when I teach

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my pre-service teachers the first day of class, I always like to give them my background so

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they know who's teaching them. And I've discovered that as I go through kind of my experience,

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it mirrors a lot of what's happening right now with the, if you want to call them, reading

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wars or whatever. So if I could kind of go through my history and tell you, because in

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a nutshell, what I would like to say to teachers in the field, administrators making decisions

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about curriculum, legislators who are passing laws, I'm in Ohio, we have legislation being

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passed right now that not only dictates what you do, it dictates what you can't do. And

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some of what you can't do is very research based and successful. So all of that, you

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know, there are things that I would like to say that I think balanced literacy or what

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I hate even using terms like that, because we all think of different things when we hear

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terms like that. But I think the practices that are commonly associated with balanced

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literacy have either been misunderstood by the science of reading movement. And I do

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think there are people that just misunderstand or purposefully misrepresented to move the,

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you know, cause forward. And I do think there are people that purposefully misrepresent

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maybe journalists, perhaps you might misrepresent when they know better. So my message would

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be, we really need to be clear about what it is we're moving against. And so I'll just

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tell you my background. I came to Miami University, which is where I teach here in Ohio, in the

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1980s. And I was in a whole language program, they said flat out, you know, we're whole

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language, that's what we do. I learned whole language. And then when I got my first job

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as a first grade teacher, it was in a whole language district, they said we're whole

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language. But even then, when it was as whole language as you can get in my district, we

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had a phonics program that we taught every day 20 minutes a day with my first graders,

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I was doing a phonics program, where they learned to hear sounds and words, they learned

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the letter sounds, they learned to decode, I was doing it even back then. And in my undergraduate

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program, we read articles that talked about balance, you know, we're not going to throw

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kids in a pile of books and hope they learn to read, we have to teach them skills as well.

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So I feel like even back then, we were doing a balanced job. So then after I was a first

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grade teacher, I became a reading recovery teacher, my district had a plan that every

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first grade and kindergarten teacher in the district would be trained. So I was trained

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in reader recovery in the mid to late 90s, and did that for seven years. And then I became

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a teacher leader, which meant I went around and trained the recovery teachers. But even

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then, like I'd look back. And when I was first a reading recovery teacher, I inherited a set

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of books, and they were very patterned. So this is issue number one, the issue of what books do

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we put in front of emergent readers to read. And the science of reading movement would say,

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balance literacy uses patterned books where kids don't have to look at the print, it's just about

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memorizing looking at the picture and memorizing the words, and then saying if they don't actually

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learn to interact with the print. And I think the thing is, I think both sides have valid points,

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and that's how we get on this swing. And I think the valid point was that was happening. I saw it

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happen. I had the same books with all the patterns that went on way too long. But my point is, and

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it was around 1998, somewhere in there, all the recovery teachers were gathered together. And we

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were told, you can't be using pattern text after what they said was after kids have left to right

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directionality. I would go so far as to say after they have one to one matching, because pattern text

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is a crutch to help children be able to say, oh, one word out of my mouth. I point to one word on

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the page. So in 1998, we were told to get rid of the patterned books as soon as they had, you know,

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that print concept of going left to right. So to me, that's a very false argument. That's one of

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their main arguments is it's all about memorizing, you know, words, memorizing patterns. So then I

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go on and I became a literacy coach. And I got involved. I don't know, do you subscribe to spell

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talk by any chance? No, I do not. Or do you know what that is? I do not. Okay, well, you should

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subscribe. So I was a reading specialist during the time that the dyslexia movement came about,

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which I feel like was legitimate. I feel like there were a lot of kids who had learning disabilities

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who were not taught with the appropriate instruction. I think that was legitimate. And at that time,

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the special education teachers in our district asked us to join this listserv. And so it's kind

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of an old fashioned listserv where you get emails, the discussion happens through emails. And it's

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a science of reading movement. Louisa Mott's is on it. All the big names are on it plus thousands

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and thousands and thousands of special ed teachers, speech therapists, Steven Dykstra, all that crew

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is on this listserv. And I joined very naively thinking I would interact with these people and

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we'd have these great conversations. And as soon as I started interacting, I learned very quickly

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they were not interested in my point of view. But I didn't leave. I stayed on. I've been on probably

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10 years now, because I learned from them what their point of view is, what their beliefs are,

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what they think has gone wrong. And I think there are kernels of truth, things were happening,

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that needed to be addressed, but it just went way too far, way too far. So I suggest what I believe

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in learning from everybody, like let's hear what people have to say, that's how we become better.

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I would suggest you join. Okay, I will look at that. I agree with you. It's important to hear

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what people are thinking. Even if they yell at you, it strengthens your own point of view.

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Anyway, great story. Keep going. This is good. So I guess my next point would be

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one of the other things balanced literacy is accused of besides the pattern text. So we could

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have a discussion about what kind of text we put in front of children. But they also, like you see

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it over and over again, three queuing. The approach is three queuing. And I just kind of want to set

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the record straight. Even people who are balanced literacy people and reading recovery professionals

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now start using the term three queuing. And we never used that term. That was never a thing.

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It wasn't an approach. But now because of all the media calling it three queuing,

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now we call it three queuing. And I refuse to call it three queuing because it's not a thing. But the

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idea was when children read, when anybody reads, they are reading printed language. It's language.

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And so inherent in printed language is the print. Also inherent in language is meaning.

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Language is meaningful. That's what it's for. And also inherent are structural things like the way

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things like the way English works. And that's the three things, meaning visual, which is the print,

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the phonics, and language structure. Let's stick down. That is such an important part.

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Three queuing is not an approach. It's not a strategy. It's a recognition that brain uses

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interactive systems to recognize words during reading. I'm going to say it again. It is not a

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method. It's not an approach. It's not a strategy. It's an understanding.

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Yeah. And it's inherent. It's inherent in the reading. You can't take it away. So Ohio

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passed legislation outlawing three queuing. How do you outlaw what's inherent in printed language?

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Hey, you kids, don't use all of your brain. Just use the lighter sounds.

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Yes. Yes. So that's problematic. Marie Clay, who, you know, they all, she started reading recovery

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and brought it to the United States. And I trained. So she brought it first to Ohio State

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University. That's where I got my training and reading recovery and as a teacher leader,

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I had Gay Supernell, you know, the whole thing. But again, and I think this was around 2000-ish,

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I can't remember when her publications changed. And she said flat out, I'm not using the term

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queue anymore because it's so people are misunderstanding it and misinterpreting it.

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We're done with queuing or she didn't even say queuing. We're done with talking about queues.

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We're going to talk about sources of information. And so from about spend 23 years now that people

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in our profession stopped using the term queue, but this movement went back in time and looked at

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old publications, old things that were written and thought, ah, here's something. Here's a good

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point we can make. And that's how this came about. Which just drives me crazy. Let's dig down on that.

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You know, pulling up terms and misusing them, misapplying, even things, you know, Ken Goodman

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has become a swear word to some people. Yes. He's been accused of a called it guessing at words.

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Yes. Why? That just drives me crazy too. They pull a little thing and they misunderstand a term

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and they misuse a term. And Marry Clay and Ken Goodman are are swear words to some. Yes. I would

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posit they actually never read an article by these people. No. No. And so you mentioned the word

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guessing. Yes. And I'd kind of like to talk about that as well because when they give the example

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of guessing, the typical argument that they say or the example is those balanced literacy people

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teach children to look at the first letter and the picture and then guess because that is a prompt

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and a strategy that you might teach a kid. But I kind of want to explain it. It works in the exact

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opposite way of what they're thinking it does. It teaches children not to guess because when we

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teach emergent readers, we know that children who don't know anything about print concepts,

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you know, little kids, two year olds, three year olds, four year olds, and they open a picture book,

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they make it up as they should. That's a normal part of literacy growth. And we call it we always

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called it inventing. They would invent the story and that's a normal, you know, stage you go through

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before you learn how to use the print. Yeah. In order to stop that and to teach children that,

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you know what, we don't just make it up. We have to use the printed symbols. The easiest symbol to

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use is the first letter in a word. It's the easiest to see because space comes before it.

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It's the easiest thing to recognize in your mouth at first part. So in order to stop guessing,

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the first step could be, you know, you said puppy, but look, look at the first letter. It's a D.

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Let's think about how it can't be puppy, which you guessed. So that whole guessing thing, I think

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our purposes were the exact opposite of what they think. And then the other strategy, and I don't,

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I think this, I don't know if this was a Lucy Calkins or maybe it was in classrooms that work.

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I don't know where it came from, but it was the cover the word, you know, the strategy,

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like you might have a chart the kids are reading and one of the words you cover with a post-it note,

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and then you just reveal letter by letter. And they're saying you're teaching them to guess.

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You're having, you're covering the word and then saying, what do you think it is? Again,

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I've used that strategy and I use it for the guessers because I need to teach them. You can't

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guess. Let me show you. If you're saying like if the text is there is my house and they're saying

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home, I'll cover it and say, okay, you think it's home. Let's check. Could it start like this?

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Could there be an O next? Oh, but now look, what would you see if it was home? You'd see an M. Let's

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look at what it actually is. And now let's talk about, you know, the O youth, like it's like an

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out. So you know what to say there and there's an S. So what could it be? So for me, that cover the

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word was not about guessing, it was about stopping guessing. And it develops metacognition. Does it

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make sense? That's the purpose of reading. Yes. And so kind of to get back to that spell group

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talk, and I think they've evolved too. When I first was getting emails from them, they were against

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any kind of meaning making until like third grade, like, no, there can't be any meaning in the text

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because children's minds might go away from the decoding and that would get in the way of orthographic

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mapping. And all that, I think they've evolved from that. They didn't like any sight words,

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even though OG and I'm trained in OG. So I'm not somebody who's not trained, like I'm trained in

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OG, I'm trained in foundations, because I wanted to learn about everything so I can speak from a

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point of knowledge. I think they've moved away from that. They didn't want sight words because

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it got in the way of orthographic mapping. Like, if you memorize a word, then you haven't

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orthographically mapped it and then that's going to mess up your whole system of reading.

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How would you define orthographic mapping? To me, it's that when you have a lot of experience

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seeing a printed word and you've matched the sounds coming out of your mouth with the printed

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symbols and whatever form it is, letter by letter, it could be chunk by chunk, however,

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but you've matched the sounds coming out of your mouth with the print that you're seeing

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and your brain recognizes that word and knows that word and knows the meaning of it. And you've

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done that enough that it becomes a sight word, like you just know it, then it's been orthographically

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mapped. I mean, that's to me, that's what that is. And I don't know that I'm not an expert in

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orthographic mapping, but what would you add to that or take away? I would just comment, you know,

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the brain has naturally evolved to recognize patterns. It's a pattern recognition thing.

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But when we hear the word cat, we don't associate it with short A words, we associate it with cat

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things with meaning. That's how our brain organizes words, not by letters, but by concepts.

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So this idea that as we're reading, our brain is acting like a computer matching letter sounds,

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matching letter sounds, oh, it's focusing on concepts on meeting. Anyway, interrupt, did you?

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No, no. I think that's right. And, you know, I always wonder back when they were saying there

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should be no sight words and you shouldn't expose the kids to any words that they can't decode.

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That's how the book should work. I always wondered what they thought about children who know their

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own name. They come to school, and that's a sight word and most of them are not, you know,

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phonically regular. How do they explain that? Or do they argue like, oh, you shouldn't teach

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your child their name because it... Dolce, Zeno, Frye, these most frequent words. And there's

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research to show that if you're not, these most frequent words freeze up short-term memory to

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focus on meeting. So you're not saudi now, the in of. And you leave kindergarten with 40 or to

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50 of these, you know? And it's just, it's one of those what I call I thinkisms. I think that's

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right. So it's based on I thinkism that we shouldn't have sight words. Anyway, I like that. Sounds

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like you have gone, lived through the history, reading first initiative. You went through that.

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That was interesting to me because my, you know, for reading first, it was funding that controlled

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people. And my district was a higher socioeconomic district, and we didn't need the funding. And

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we didn't take the funding and we didn't do reading first. So I continued to teach in this very balanced

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place. Our kids did great. But at that point, I was a teacher leader who I went around to other

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districts and trained teachers in other districts. So I was in a lot of different places that were

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reading first. And what I found ended up matching the research that came out in 2008 that it didn't

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work. But I found that the richer districts and they tended to be white continued to teach in a

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balanced way with very engaging little books for children. And they were reaching high levels.

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The districts that I were in that took reading first tended to be lower socioeconomic tended to

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have more children of color tended to be like you would walk in and they were doing worksheets

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and skills. And they had very nice handwriting. I would always say that they did a great job on

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handwriting. But it was very skills oriented. And but it didn't translate into becoming a reader

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who can comprehend text. So in 2008, when the research came out that it, you know, didn't make

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a difference that we had done all this and reading first, I have to say I was not surprised at all.

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But then what was heartbreaking to me was after all that, after that research came out, that's when

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the dyslexia movement started. And then my district followed the dyslexia movement. And at that point,

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we adopted Divils. We adopted like we started going that way after it had already been shown.

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And then teaching changes because assessment drives how teachers are going to instruct.

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Because sometimes their paycheck relies on it, their evaluations rely on it. And so when my

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district started using we used AIMS web instead of Divils. And there was the whole how many nonsense

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words can you read in one minute. So then you'd walk in classrooms and there's teachers teaching

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nonsense words, because they need their kids to score high. And you have teachers training kids.

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When you read, just go as fast as you can. If you don't know a word, just blow by it. If you're not

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understanding it, don't go back and reread. Just keep going, because you've got to get a lot of

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words per minute. So because we adopted that skill based assessment and we valued it so highly,

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teaching changed as well. And I always ask, do we want students to be able to sound out words

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or to be literate? To be literate is to use reading and writing for authentic purposes.

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You go ahead and you sound out your silly words in isolation. I want my students to be literate.

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And that speaks to what books we put in their hands. So to me, there are, you know,

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leveled books have also been like they're against the law in Ohio now, leveled books are against the

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law. And decodable books are what everyone has to use. But again, those are just labels. There are

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leveled books that have the same level of decodability as some of the decodable books.

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And so what I just really wish we could get to the point of is having teachers who have enough

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professional knowledge to choose books that fit the needs of the students in front of them. So yes,

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they have a chance to practice their decoding skills. But they also from the earliest days have

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a chance to maintain meaning as they're decoding because it, you know, that's a tricky thing to

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do two things at once. And if we have teachers who can look at books, no matter what the label is,

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and decide this fits my purpose, this doesn't, instead of legislating, and then publishers

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slap labels on, just, you know, it just drives me crazy. When the whole language movement came,

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people were just slapping the whole language movement on stuff to sell product.

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Yes. And now you see it, you see publishers doing that. You see consultants who are now,

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I'm going to teach you phonics and science of reading. You know, a year ago I was balanced

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literacy, but now I'm this and I understand like that's their living. That's how they have to make

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a living with laws passed. You won't get hired in Ohio if you're not teaching that. So I understand

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people doing this, but I just think that's why it's so important that legislators and decision

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makers, administrators, learn the field and not just go by what, you know, journalists or a movement

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to tell them. Or at least ask the experts. I want to ask you about journalists and maybe Emily

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Hanford in just a minute, but the educational industrial complex is what I call it. It does not

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exist to make money off our children. They are bloodsuckers feeding off the hopes and dreams

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of parents, and we have public education to prevent that. So the for-profits have wormed their way in

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and it just is not right. I don't, people need to make a living absolutely, but do you need to make

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millions and billions of dollars off our children? That's a rhetorical question. Sorry.

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Well, I agree with you completely. It breaks my heart that it's happening here in Ohio,

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where they're mandating programs and outlawing other programs and not allowing teachers to decide

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what's right for their own students, not allowing teachers to be professionals. We allow other

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professions to be professionals. I think you're absolutely right. I always thought, what if there

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was a science of plumbing and they mandated certain plumbing? I had a toilet that backed up

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once and they're not teaching plumbing the right way. We need to have a science of plumbing.

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Yes. That's an analogy. Yes. All right. Speak to Emily Hanford if you would.

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And I will right up front tell you I've not listened to her. I won't and I know I need to and

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I have people say, you have to. She upsets me so much. And back in the early days when she

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had first put her stuff out and was becoming a name and she was on Twitter all the time and she

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would interact with you. So I've interacted with her through these Twitter conversations

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and I just find her so disingenuous and I know for instance back in the early days she came to

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Ohio State to tour, read and recovery and sit in on lessons and learn from the people at Ohio State

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and I know she seemed like she was going to be balanced and taking it all in and going to

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represent what she saw there and then didn't. The opposite. So after that, after I knew that

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that happened, I just, I think my blood pressure would go too high. It wouldn't be good for my

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health but I still say I think I need to because she's changed everything. Like she's been the

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driving force behind so much of this and getting awards for her great work when and I know journalists

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don't have to be experts always in what they're reporting on but if they're reporting the facts

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and she's not, she takes an opinion and pushes that. So that's how I feel it. I don't feel like

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it is journalism. It's, to me that's not journalism. Objectivity presented in a very objective way.

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Just because you don't use personal pronouns does not mean you're being objective in your reporting.

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I listened to her original podcast, 8 p.m. years ago and of course I immediately got on American

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public media and I said you got this wrong and how much time do you think I was given? They said,

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oh no, she asked some people it was balanced and it's not and I like you. I refuse to put myself

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through listening to her. Now she is invited to speak at the Illinois Reading Council conference

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and I'm presenting there as well and it's like asking a faith healer to present at a medical

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convention. Yes, yes. Why in heaven's name would you ask a charlatan to speak and give her that platform?

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When you know that she has a personal monetary interest in making a big name for herself and she

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found this movement that she could attach herself to and make that name for herself and now she's

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famous. So I feel like she accomplished what she was really out to accomplish as opposed to being

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out to help the field of literacy grow and help more children. I don't see it that way.

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I hope 10 years from now they'll look back and call this the Hanford era because I want her to take

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ownership for what she is doing to literacy. Take ownership for how literacy is going to go downhill.

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It already is. Take ownership for how many good teachers leave the classroom because of the external

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mandates. Take ownership of that Emily. Yeah, in Ohio for example, I know North Carolina mandated

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letters training. Yes. Talk about making billions of dollars. Yes. In Louisiana most but in Ohio they

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didn't mandate letters training but they mandated training in science of reading for all teachers.

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So for example my district that I used to teach for you know 25 years has mandated all their

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teachers to take letters training and on their own time it's very intense. I mean it's long.

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It's hours and hours and hours and on their own time they're not provided time during the day.

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They have to take letters training. I know that's happening all over the country. So you know they

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talk about Lucy Calkins making money. Good grief. Who's making money now? Good grief. Well,

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Louisa Motez who I think is a charlatan as well and the reason is I read her white paper on her

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on the website and Lexia learning in Cambium are there to make lots and lots of money.

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But she the the way she misuses research, misinterprets research, I don't know which is more

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frightening that she doesn't know the difference or that she knows the difference and does it anyway.

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She makes statements such as saying teachers don't know how to teach reading and she cites a research

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study that really essentially she gave a poll on what she thought should be teachers should know

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and based on that survey then she made the conclusion that all teachers don't know how to teach reading.

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That's the type of of research in quotations that she uses to make her case and people just

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see the sites and they go oh research well Louisa Motez must know what she's still talking about

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when she either doesn't and that's a scary proposition or she doesn't she's making it up anyway.

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That's and I think there's people I think both of that those things are true with the people in

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this movement. I've interacted with people that I know believe this like they just misunderstand

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and then I know there are people that I know understand and misrepresent it so I think

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both things are going on. It's scary. It is scary. It's very scary. People who should know better

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and do this anyway and do this anyway. Well then from that from that research that teachers don't

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know how I personally have interacted online on Twitter with people who are so condescending to me

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and it's in this very kind way like you know what it's not your fault that you don't know

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how to teach children to read. You were never taught the right things and you know no one in

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college ever taught you and you're ignorant that you can't help it and we're here to help you now

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we're here to help you now which I find so insulting to say like and people say it who have never

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taught anybody to read. Well let's pick up on that point. People sometimes get down on me because I

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use funny voices and I'm sometimes a little attacking in my podcasts but for God's sakes

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what have they been doing for the last 20 years?

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You know we try to use research and reason and they do what you just said.

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So somebody has to go out there and be the the the mean crabby person?

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Well I feel like there's probably a lot of us who are not buying into the movement

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but don't have a big voice and teachers who feel like they can't have a big voice you know in my

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district where I taught you can't really have a big voice because this is what's happening and

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it's not even just the district it's the state so they feel like they'll be in trouble if they do

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anything different or speak out but I feel like there's a lot of us to feel this way and it's

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common sense really but based on science and I feel like if we more of us come together and speak

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up and educate people it's not about spouting opinions it's about educating people. I feel

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like we could come to a reasonable place and help more children instead. That's why we have the

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International Literacy Educators Coalition. It's a group of educators from around the world

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that are feeling frustrated and recognize that teachers are afraid to speak out because they

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can't. Yes and I would be the same way if I had a family to feed. Yes, yes. Shut up and do what I'm

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told. Yes, yes and I'm glad you mentioned the international part of that because for years now

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like I hang out on Twitter just because that's where I was able to connect with a lot of different

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educators that I couldn't geographically you know hang out with and I've learned so much from

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these networks that I formed on Twitter but one of the networks is with teachers from Australia

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and UK who are going through the same thing and in UK they're farther along than we are.

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Like they've already had the mandated programs there you know that's already happened and just on

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a personal level talking to these teachers and just the craziness you know inspectors come to see

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what page on the phonics book they're on it's just nuts and it hasn't worked that's what the

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latest research showed out of UK it didn't work and they've done it for maybe a decade now. I think

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why can't we learn we already did reading first and we didn't learn from that and now UK's just

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done it and apparently we're not learning from that so I'm glad you mentioned the international

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part of it because it's not just a US problem and I'm Canada too. I feel like I've made friends

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all over the world Canada New Zealand Australia UK and it is refreshing I'm not crazy other people

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think this way too. Yes well I've already made my podcast for 10 years from now and the title of

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that is I told you so. I love it I love it. Oh that would actually be a fun podcast to do.

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It really was and you know when I came to Miami University I got my undergrad here but I also

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got my master's degree here and I had to write a thesis this is back in the early 90s and I chose

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to write on the history of reading instruction in the US and I thought at the time this is so crazy

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how we do this it's so nuts I'm glad I'm not going to have to live through that that's I really

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thought that I'm glad you know we've learned from this we've learned from history I won't have to

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live through this and then my whole career now I look back and I think ah my whole career witnessed

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it continuing. It was back to the basics in the 80s and it was reading first in the early 2000s

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in the arts and now it's come back with more of a vengeance with the science of reading.

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More of a vengeance is right like more of a vengeance because the more prophets are behind

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it push it and how do you how do you argue when you have a million dollar voice and I'm just a

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little bald guy with a small little podcast. Yes yes and you know now we have legislation

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in many states that you know cementing it it cements this until we get new legislators who

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you know don't do this but I'm mentioning this not because I wrote a book but just to say so a

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few years back a co-author teacher from the district where I worked and I wrote a book about

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teaching emergent readers in small groups and it was really the purpose was to to say you know what

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it's important what books you put in front and they shouldn't be patterned and here's how you can help

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emergent readers use text but it's illegal now in my state my book like nobody in my state would be

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able to buy my book because I talk about meaning structure and visual we talk about leveled books

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like everything we talk about is illegal now and that children should be thinking about meaning

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from the earliest stages so even that like even books now are against the law which just blows my

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mind. Right I never thought we would be at this place never ever in this country I thought we

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would be at this top-down authoritative place where small groups are dictating to the masses.

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If you want to end with let's end with one big idea one big idea Susan that you'd like the world to know.

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One big idea is and this is what I would say like to my pre-service teachers

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please read all the research and please look carefully at the history and what certain

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approaches did like there's research that shows the results of different approaches

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please read all of it and be knowledgeable about all of it so that we can move forward

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in a smarter way than we've done in the past that would be what I would say.

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Excellent that is a good last word is learned so Donald would say.

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All right thank you Susan for being a wonderful guest.

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I enjoyed chatting with you as always I've always learned from you so thank you for your work

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much appreciated.

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All right.