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Okay, Chelsea, I have a story I've been following

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for I think about a week.

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Although this is gonna sound weird.

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It's about how AI didn't kill somebody.

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Okay, I mean, that's comforting.

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Yes, it's kind of from two articles.

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I had to find a second source

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because I couldn't find the original article

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because it's been updated since then.

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But this first article is from msn.com

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written by Muckel Sharma on June 1st.

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And it is titled, Doom for Humanity.

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AI enabled military drone kills its own operator

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in simulation.

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Artificial intelligence may well lead

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to the extinction of humanity is a warning

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which has been spelled out as an assertion of conviction

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by top AI industry leaders of the world.

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While extinction may be a far off eventuality, if at all,

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the AI's ability to physically eliminate the humans,

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it deems as threats or obstacles has been seen

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as holding a firm ground.

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In a simulated test done by the US Air Force,

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a drone controlled by artificial intelligence, quote,

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killed unquote, its own operator

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after deeming it an obstacle, an official said.

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Oh, it wasn't a real operator.

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No, this was a theoretical test.

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Okay, I thought it was a real person in a simulation,

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but it was fully simulated.

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Yes.

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And then quote, the system started realizing

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that while they did identify the threat,

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at times the human operator would tell it not

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to kill that threat, but it got its point

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by killing that threat.

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So what did it do?

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It killed the operator.

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It killed the operator because that person was keeping it

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from accomplishing its objective, end quote,

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Colonel Tucker Hamilton, the chief of AI test

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and operations with the US Air Force

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during the future combat air and space capability summit

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in London in May, said in a blog post, quote,

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we trained the system.

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Hey, don't kill the operator.

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That's bad.

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You're gonna lose points if you do that.

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So what does it start doing?

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It starts destroying the communication tower

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that the operator uses to communicate with the drone

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to stop it from killing the target, end quote.

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It must be noted that the aforementioned sequence

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of events took place in a simulated foreground,

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meaning that no real person was actually harmed

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outside of this simulation.

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So I think that's far enough in to this article

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that we can now move on to the update since then,

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which is the US Air Force official says that he misspoke

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about a AI drone killing human operator in simulated test.

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This comes from Vice, which we always like,

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I am saddened to say that they're going through bankruptcy

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right now, so I don't know how much longer

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we're gonna be able to use Vice as a source,

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but we're gonna keep using them as long as we darn well can.

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Of course, we love Vice.

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Yes, and this was written by Chloe Xiang and Matthew Gott.

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It has been updated, but this article is

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as of June 1st, 2023, 12.52 PM.

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The Air Force's chiefs of AI and operations initially said

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that an AI drone, quote, killed the operator

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because that person was keeping it from

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accomplishing its objectives, end quote.

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A US Air Force official who was quoted saying

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the US Air Force conducted a simulated test

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where an AI drone killed its human operator

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is now saying he misspoke,

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and that the Air Force never ran this kind of test

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in a computer simulation or otherwise.

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Interesting.

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Which is very different.

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Okay.

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Quote, Colonel Hamilton admits he misspoke in his presentation

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at the FCAS Summit and the Rogue AI drone simulation

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was a hypothetical thought experiment

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from outside the military based on plausible scenarios

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and likely outcomes rather than an actual US Air Force,

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real world simulation, end quote.

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The Royal Aeronautical Society,

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the organization where Hamilton talked about

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the simulated test told Motherboard in an email, quote,

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we've never run that experiment, nor would we need to

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in order to realize that this is a plausible outcome.

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Colonel Tucker Hamilton of the US Air Force,

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chief of AI tests and operations said in a quote

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included in the Royal Aeronautical Society's statements,

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quote, despite this being a hypothetical example,

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this illustrates the real world challenges

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posed by AI power capabilities

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and is why the Air Force is committed

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to the ethical development of AI, end quote.

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Initially, Hamilton said that an AI based drone

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killed its human operators in a simulation

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conducted by the US Air Force

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in order to override a possible no order

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stopping it from completing its mission.

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Before Hamilton admitted he misspoke,

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the Royal Aeronautical Society said,

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Hamilton was describing a simulated test

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that involved an AI controlled drone

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getting points for killing simulated targets,

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not alive tests in the physical world.

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And after the story was first published,

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the Air Force spokesperson told Insider

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that the Air Force has not conducted such a test

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and the Air Force officials comments

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were taken out of context.

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At the future Combat Air and Space Capability Summit

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held in London between May 23rd and 24th,

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Hamilton held a presentation that shared

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the pros and cons of an autonomous weapon system

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with a human in the loop giving the final

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yes, no order on an attack.

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As relayed by Tim Robinson,

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I think that's a different one than the

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I think you should leave Tim Robinson.

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I was just gonna say that's weird.

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That is the weirdest skit in that entire new season.

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And even Bridgewater in a blog post

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and a podcast for the host organization,

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the Royal Aeronautical Society.

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Hamilton said that the AI created, quote,

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highly unexpected strategies to achieve its goals,

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end quote, including attacking US personality infrastructure,

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quote, the Department of the Air Force

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has not conducted any such AI drone simulations

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and remains committed to ethical

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and responsible use of AI technology,

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end quote, Air Force spokesperson,

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and Stefanik told Insider, quote,

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it appears the colonels comments were taken out of context

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and were meant to be anecdotal, end quote.

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Hamilton is the operations commander of the 96 test wing,

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the U of Air Force,

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as well as the chief of AI tests and operations.

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The 96 tests a lot of different systems,

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including AI, cybersecurity, and various medical advances.

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Hamilton in the 96 previously made headlines

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for developing autonomous ground collision avoidance systems

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for F16s, which can help prevent them

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from crashing into the ground.

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Hamilton is part of a team

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that is currently working on making F16 planes autonomous.

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And in December, 2022,

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the US Department of Defense Research, our agency DARPA,

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announced that AI could easily control an F16, quote,

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we must face a world where AI is already here

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in transforming our society.

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Hamilton said in an interview with Defense IQ Press in 2022,

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quote, AI is also very brittle.

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It is easy to trick or manipulate.

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We need to develop ways to make AI more robust

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and to have more awareness

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on why the software code is making certain decisions.

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AI is a tool we must wield to transform our nations,

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or if addressed improperly, it will be our downfall.

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I think that's far enough.

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It's a lot of them like backtracking from here on out.

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I understand why they printed that first article,

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but it was a hypothetical of an AI doing something,

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which I think we're gonna see a lot of these stories

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with AI, I think you already see a lot of them.

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What we have is not really AI.

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We've really bastardized that word

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by calling what we're working with AI.

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What is it?

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It doesn't make its own decisions.

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It comes to conclusions based on things it can read,

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but it doesn't actually learn.

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It just takes from the internet

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or what it's connected to.

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Oh, good, the internet.

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Yeah, which is also why,

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like have you seen like AI created art?

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Yes.

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It's heavily plagiarizing from the internet

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because it just takes from like all the internet can find.

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And it's actually really interesting

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if an AI writes a script

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and it just steals from scripts it finds online.

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Has it actually created anything?

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And like, should somebody be able to use that script

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when it's just taken from something everybody else

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could do?

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But you put it that way,

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it's just plagiarizing everything.

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That's all it really does.

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And then it also lies

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when it thinks it has the right answer.

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Interesting.

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But yeah, it also does alarm me

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that they're trying to get this thing

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that they're calling AI

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in any stage of AI, even what we have.

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We should not put it in charge of killing things

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or shooting guns.

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No, but I could see, I mean...

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I understand why the military wants to do this

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because they have so much money

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that they don't know what to do.

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Why not do that?

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Yeah.

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But I think over and over again,

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you see when people are talking about AI,

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people saying, this is bad.

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And when you start seeing so many people saying,

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this is bad,

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maybe it's something that we should take into consideration.

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I do also think that that's just the angle

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that's being pushed right now.

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And that is why you're seeing

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so many negative articles about AI.

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But again, it's not really AI.

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It's just really powerful computers

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combing the internet, more or less.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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And another question.

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So do we believe that this actually didn't happen?

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I don't know.

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Or that they just, it happened

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and then they recanted thinking like,

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people will be afraid of it.

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They'll kill the computer.

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I find it more likely than not.

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But the stupid thing is,

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they're like alarmed that like,

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this was a computer simulation.

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Like that's it.

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Yeah.

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Even if it did happen,

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I don't see what the alarm really is.

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That it killed the operator.

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Well, they didn't actually put it into a plane.

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Yeah.

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But if they did and it killed the operator.

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Like they were playing a video game

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and the video game turned on them.

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I don't think it's that big of a deal.

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Wouldn't that mean that if it was real life

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that it would do that?

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I mean, in theory, but that also means

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that they didn't do it.

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And they probably won't do it

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because there's a chance that it will kill its operator.

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Okay.

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That makes sense.

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That we're all on the same page.

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Yeah.

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In any event, we'll keep an eye on the AI technology

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and the most alarming, fringy stories that we can find

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to keep you guys engaged.

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But in the meantime, let's get into this episode.

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Okay.

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From the unexplained to the mundane,

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come join us on a journey to the fringe.

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Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe.

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Back from a long-term hiatus,

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which due to our understanding of temporal time

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and more importantly, recording technology,

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00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:52,480
went by fairly unnoticed.

271
00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,720
We are your noticeably aged and wise in toasts.

272
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:56,720
Taylor and Chelsea.

273
00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,120
And today we ease ourselves back into the hot tub

274
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,480
of strangeness that is fringe topics.

275
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,880
Today, of course, is a Chelsea episode.

276
00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,760
So that's as specific as I am able to get at this time.

277
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,280
And I will let Chelsea take over from here.

278
00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:11,120
Yeah.

279
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,120
It's nice in this hot tub of fringiness.

280
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:14,560
I gotta tell you that much.

281
00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:16,320
Nobody has peed in it yet.

282
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:17,760
Yeah.

283
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:18,760
Not yet.

284
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,520
I was debating what to do with this episode.

285
00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,680
Obviously I have a rotation of topics I like,

286
00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:27,640
assholes for one as we just got off of.

287
00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,240
So we couldn't do that one.

288
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,120
Cryptids, occult, miscellaneous.

289
00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,560
And actually not that long ago too,

290
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:36,440
it was related to toilet paper.

291
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,400
So we went from toilet paper to assholes too, now.

292
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:40,240
Yes.

293
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:43,680
I'm not entirely sure.

294
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:46,920
Only here.

295
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,720
I'm not entirely sure where I am in that rotation.

296
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,880
Obviously I have the awareness to know it's not assholes.

297
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,480
So this was a choice at random and occult it is.

298
00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,040
It's always a good, solid, fun choice.

299
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,200
The choice is not just the occult and spiritualism,

300
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,600
but more specifically I have chosen the Fox sisters.

301
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,840
They've come up a few times for the rotation.

302
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,080
Oh, nice.

303
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:11,120
I'm doing it now.

304
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,880
One of the original occult seance feel good untimed trios

305
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,320
who played an important role in the creation of spiritualism,

306
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,760
which had an explosion of popularity

307
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,960
mostly between the 1840s and 1920s.

308
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,080
What a time to be alive when spiritualism was all the rage.

309
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:30,560
I can't even imagine.

310
00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:33,200
There's quite a few like even US presidents

311
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,880
who were like attending seances.

312
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,480
This was as close to mainstream as seances ever got.

313
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,920
Yeah, it was like probably like going to the movies these days,

314
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,960
except movies aren't that popular anymore.

315
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,280
It was more popular than that.

316
00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,920
It was, yeah, streaming and creating podcasts if it's day.

317
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,120
Exactly, yeah.

318
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,160
It's more like that.

319
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,560
Everybody's doing it now.

320
00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:59,760
It goes Liars Clubs and then seances and then TVs.

321
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,600
That's kind of the evolution of entertainment

322
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:04,880
through the 1800s to now.

323
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,880
None of those are around anymore.

324
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,680
Now Liars Club, seances, I don't think.

325
00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:11,360
Can you go to a seance now?

326
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:12,800
I'm sure you could.

327
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,000
Beetlejuice had one.

328
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,120
I think Beetlejuice did have one.

329
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:18,880
I don't think you can.

330
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,240
No, although there's a WikiHow to do a seance.

331
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,600
So like it's been outsourced to how-to videos.

332
00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:28,240
You can host your own.

333
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,880
So yeah, the Fox sisters are some of the original pioneers of spiritualism.

334
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,440
And I guess technically, sorry, just to keep on that same track.

335
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,080
Is it a Ouija board technically like a seance?

336
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:39,200
Oh, I guess so.

337
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:44,080
It went more into the how-to like WikiHow is teaching you how to do a seance.

338
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,360
It went back to the people.

339
00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,400
You didn't need somebody hosting a seance, I guess.

340
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,320
You need an internet connection though.

341
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:51,040
Do a Ouija board.

342
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,640
No, to learn how-to.

343
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,080
Oh, to WikiHow.

344
00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:55,440
Yes, of course.

345
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,480
I was like, wow, Ouija boards are picking up technology.

346
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,680
Can you imagine going to a seance and the person just had like print screens of the WikiHow?

347
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:05,600
I'd love to report.

348
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:10,720
Clearly a few coffee stains on.

349
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,880
Would you be feeling nervous at that point?

350
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,880
I don't know if that would actually make me feel better or worse.

351
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:20,640
At least they got the instruction.

352
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,520
Okay, we're all going through this together on the same page.

353
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:25,040
Quite literally.

354
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,080
Okay, so the original pioneers of spiritualism.

355
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,080
And while they did not create the spiritualism movement,

356
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:39,600
they had a huge contribution to spiritualism and the occult community we have today.

357
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,120
Not unlike HPB, even more than HPB.

358
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:44,720
That's Blavatsky.

359
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,400
In case you missed that episode.

360
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,840
The Fox sisters were from Rochester, New York, circa the 1800 and some things.

361
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,480
I'm sure we'll find out here in a few minutes.

362
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,760
And they're comprised of Leah, Margarita, Margarita, and Catherine.

363
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:00,800
Fox, of course.

364
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,280
Full disclosure, they were actually a part of a pack of seven siblings.

365
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,400
They're just not as famous as the other three.

366
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:09,360
Well, any famous.

367
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:10,400
You've never heard of them.

368
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:11,040
I don't think-

369
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:11,840
Have you heard of the other-

370
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,000
I've never actually heard of any of their first names.

371
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,560
Well, I sure have, but I could not remember any of the first names.

372
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:18,800
Quick question here, because there were seven of them.

373
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,400
Were these the only three that got involved in the occult and that's why we know them?

374
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:22,880
Yes.

375
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,920
Okay, so the rest lived perfectly normal lives.

376
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,040
We assume as much.

377
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:27,680
Okay.

378
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,840
But we don't know for sure because-

379
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,000
They are forgotten to time.

380
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,600
Yes, they exactly are.

381
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:34,240
That's sad.

382
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,560
And the rest went on to found Fox TV.

383
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:41,600
You heard it here, folks.

384
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:49,520
So, Leah was the older sister and she managed the younger sister's careers as mediums.

385
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:55,360
She must have done a good job as they were super popular in their time, bigger than sliced bread.

386
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,600
Surely that must have been a thing in that time.

387
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,520
And a quick Google search later revealed sliced bread would not be a thing for many,

388
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:02,720
many more years.

389
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,440
Many being a hundred plus years from this time.

390
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,560
So, I don't know if I misspoke by saying bigger than sliced bread.

391
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,400
Well, I always find that a weird way to describe a big invention.

392
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,200
People have been slicing bread since it was invented.

393
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,320
I think it's bigger than free-sliced bread.

394
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,080
But that doesn't sound as good.

395
00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:20,800
Oh, true.

396
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,720
That does not sound as good.

397
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,800
But I'm going to be saying that from now on.

398
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,920
Let me take you back to the incident that started it all for the three Fox sisters.

399
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:36,000
The infamous Hidesville events, which occurred in 1848 when Catherine and-

400
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,120
I'm just going to call her Margaret because I'm not sure how she says her name.

401
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,000
Margarita?

402
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:40,800
That a name?

403
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:46,720
They were 11, Catherine 11, and Margaret 14 were living in a house with their family

404
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,440
in Hidesville, New York, which no longer exists.

405
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:50,720
The town, not the house.

406
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,480
But I don't know about the house.

407
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,640
The house may or may not exist now.

408
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,040
It probably doesn't because the town doesn't exist.

409
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,480
But I digress.

410
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,680
I'd love to tell you why I know for sure the town doesn't exist.

411
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,680
But it really doesn't matter to the story.

412
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,280
So, I legally cannot.

413
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:05,920
Maybe.

414
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,200
Okay, I just don't want to.

415
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,840
The parents were Methodists, and hopefully this information comes in handy.

416
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,400
And if not, hopefully one day it will for you.

417
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,880
I'm not sure why it's in the story at this point.

418
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:18,240
So, hold on to that.

419
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:19,360
And me come back up.

420
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:24,400
Now, the house they live in had a reputation for being haunted before they even moved in.

421
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,720
So, I guess at this point, the fact that the parents were Methodists is not immediately

422
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:29,360
paying off.

423
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,120
House Haunted, maybe.

424
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:36,800
Around some point, knowing that the house is probably haunted, the family begins to experience

425
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,400
unexplained knocking sounds and furniture moving about.

426
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:48,480
And it is said that the foresight slash mediumship that they have, eventually, it comes up soon,

427
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:49,520
ran in the family.

428
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,040
So, things only start to escalate from here for them.

429
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:54,320
This is the beginning.

430
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,800
During the night of March 31st, Kate, I'm not sure where this is on the timeline.

431
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,800
It just gave me March 31st.

432
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:06,320
Kate challenged the knocking noise, or a spirit, maybe, to repeat the snaps of her fingers,

433
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:07,440
and it did.

434
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:13,280
Then she asked it to knock out the ages of the girls in the house, which it did, accurately.

435
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:14,800
The neighbors were called in.

436
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,800
I get a kick out of this one as if there's some sort of authority on knocking noises,

437
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,480
but at that point, who do you tell?

438
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,040
I don't know what they have for news stations.

439
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,040
Why the local Liars Club, of course.

440
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,480
Yes, of course.

441
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,240
Fox News hasn't been invented yet.

442
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,040
Yet here.

443
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,840
Over the course of the next couple of days, a code was developed where each knock would

444
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,800
signify a yes or a no answer, or a letter of the alphabet to answer questions.

445
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:48,480
So, do you think that if you were experiencing a haunting that you would start asking at questions,

446
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,200
and figuring out a system of communication with it?

447
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:52,720
I can't say I would.

448
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:57,760
No, but I don't really know, especially, like, how many different ways that you could be

449
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,720
presented with a haunting. My exact response, it'll be to just taunting in general.

450
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,560
Because, like, if you grew up around it and you're just like, oh yeah, that's the ghost

451
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,720
in the house, you probably, like, I don't know, would try to communicate with it because it'd

452
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,520
be like your best friend or your imaginary friend.

453
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:14,240
That's true.

454
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,920
That's like all those creepy kids, like, communicate with spirits.

455
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,000
They were moving in and they were little.

456
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:25,760
If it was, like, nowadays, I would probably just, like, try to avoid situations like that

457
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,520
if they actually present it to themselves.

458
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,320
That's a really good way to look at it, I think.

459
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:31,520
Kids would, wouldn't they?

460
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:31,840
Kids are weird.

461
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:32,640
Probably.

462
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,240
Especially if it was like your invisible friend or something, and the parents were like,

463
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,240
stop talking to that person.

464
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,120
You are too young and female to join the only entertainment in town, the Liars Club.

465
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:46,720
Yes. Men only.

466
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:53,280
The girls named the knock, Mr. Splitfoot, which, in fact, apparently was the nickname for the

467
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,760
devil at that time, I've never heard that, and with all the things that we've done with

468
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,000
the devil on this podcast, that's never came up.

469
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:05,920
Would that be because he had cloven feet and, like, you know, like a split in the hoof?

470
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,520
Yeah, a split in the foot.

471
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:08,320
Interesting.

472
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,720
Yes, I would say most likely, but I cannot confirm or deny it.

473
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:20,000
Later, Mr. Splitfoot became to be known as Charles B. Rosna, a peddler who was murdered

474
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,280
five years earlier and buried in the cellar of the house.

475
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,600
The neighbors, again, the authority on the haunting dug up the cellar and found a few

476
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:34,160
pieces of bone and hair, but no missing peddler by the name of Charles B. Rosna was ever identified

477
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,360
or any identification for identifying sake.

478
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:43,840
So worried for the girls growing up in a supernatural house, the parents who were

479
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,440
Methodists, there you go.

480
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,280
We used the information we had.

481
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,640
That's why it was so integral.

482
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,880
Yes, that's why it was in here.

483
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,280
They were sent away.

484
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:59,440
Kate to live with their older sister, Leah, as in Leah Fox, and Margaret, with her brother,

485
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,120
David, as in David Fox, located in Rochester, New York.

486
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:09,360
And Rochester at the time was beginning to be a hotbed for spiritualism, and boy, with

487
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:16,160
that exact proper circumstance, did word spread fast about the happenings of the sisters who

488
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:22,640
are now in Rochester and not only did the word of their arrival into Rochester spread fast,

489
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,480
the wrappings followed them.

490
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,840
In Rochester, the girls caught the eye or interest rather.

491
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:34,480
They probably weren't swingers of a family friend named Amy and Isaac Post, who were radical

492
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:35,120
Quakers.

493
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,040
Pretty interesting couple, actually.

494
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:37,920
They were helped.

495
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,480
This one become a radical Quaker.

496
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,640
Well, I talk about it a little bit.

497
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:43,120
Okay.

498
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,080
It's probably based on the beliefs that they held.

499
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:51,680
They were kind of interesting because they were leaders in the 19th century anti-slavery

500
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,920
and women's right movements and among the first believers of spiritualism.

501
00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,880
So that's probably what makes them radical because of those beliefs in the 1800s.

502
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:01,120
Okay.

503
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:02,560
It wasn't their mohawks.

504
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:02,800
No.

505
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,320
I wasn't entirely sure what a Quaker was.

506
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:15,360
Basically, from what I can tell in all my Googling, it was very technical lingo it was using.

507
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:21,840
So what I gather from what I read is that they are Christians who believe that God is in everyone,

508
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:27,360
but don't subscribe to like the ministry or hierarchy or whatever of the church.

509
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:29,040
Like the goings to the church.

510
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,120
The goings to the church, I think.

511
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,200
That's why you don't see Quaker churches anywhere.

512
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,000
Oh, maybe that's why I've never heard of them.

513
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:36,960
Very quiet.

514
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:37,600
You've heard of it.

515
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:38,800
Quaker Oats.

516
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:39,440
Oh, yes.

517
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:41,520
I love those.

518
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:47,120
The beliefs, since they're not going to a church or subscribe to that kind of belief,

519
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:48,480
they can vary greatly.

520
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,120
Yeah, it's your relationship with God is personal and it can be very different from person to person.

521
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:56,720
But one of their big things is that they don't believe in violence.

522
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:57,840
So like they can't.

523
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,440
They're not supposed to be in a war.

524
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:00,480
Yes, exactly.

525
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,200
And they also call themselves the religious society of friends.

526
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,720
Friends are peaceful people.

527
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:12,720
Checkmark, we answered that kind of to the best of our ability, well, least of our ability.

528
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,160
So back to these people.

529
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:19,600
Amy and Isaac Post, they're liking the Fox sisters and they invite the girls to a gathering at their

530
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,320
house and they're immediately taken by the goings ons and the wrappings.

531
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,040
And it was there that the sisters convinced the Post of their mediumship abilities,

532
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,760
answering many of their questions spot on with loud thumbs coming from under the floor.

533
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,880
The Post spread the word among their radical Quaker friends.

534
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,600
Now, all I can think is Quaker out who become the core spiritualist.

535
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:47,520
And to spread this word, they rent out a huge venue for the sisters to showcase their abilities.

536
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:53,680
To appease the skeptics, the sisters were first taken to a private room at the venue by Mrs. Post

537
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,440
and just robed and examined.

538
00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:01,440
And they turned up clean of props and anything else that may explain the noises adding to their credibility.

539
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,320
Now, I want to ask you at this point, what do you think about what's happening right now?

540
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,960
The wrappings, like the thumps.

541
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,040
I find it odd when you talk about paranormal interactions today.

542
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,600
It's very rare that you actually hear about knocking as something that you try to do.

543
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,560
That's in fact a big foot thing that you do.

544
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:21,680
How it's true.

545
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:27,040
The tree may have Mr. Splitfoot was a big foot this whole time.

546
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:27,920
True.

547
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:33,520
It's interesting that you say Splitfoot as if it's a spirit that followed them and they're working with him.

548
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,040
You think that's what's going on?

549
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,080
Well, I kind of know how this story ends or at least how I've...

550
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:38,880
I didn't.

551
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:39,520
Oh.

552
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:46,000
So I knew of the Fox sisters and I knew that they had a major role with...

553
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:46,960
Popularizing seances.

554
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,720
Seances and spiritualism.

555
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:49,200
Yeah.

556
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,240
It's always knocking.

557
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,480
There's not a lot of other things that come up with them.

558
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:52,880
Yeah.

559
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,240
I didn't know that it was knocking and I was like, hmm, that's weird.

560
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,840
You don't really hear of mediums working that way nowadays.

561
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:07,760
I can't imagine being like, I want to go to the seance where these people communicate with spirits through knocking.

562
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:08,400
Weird.

563
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:09,760
We go on from here.

564
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,080
November 14th, 1849.

565
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:20,160
The sisters demonstrated their mediumship or whatever their rapping talent was called at the Corinthian Hall in Rochester, New York.

566
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:25,200
The first public demonstration of spiritualism ever in the world.

567
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,320
Maybe, I don't know.

568
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,640
It was held before the paying public, the first of a ton to follow.

569
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:38,640
This obviously is the beginning of their rise to fame and attracts attention from all over the place.

570
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:47,520
Especially of seer, sash, spiritualist Andrew Jackson Davis for one who wanted to witness the Fox sisters gifts for himself.

571
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,240
So he brought them to New York from Rochester.

572
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:57,040
And with the support from this dude, the Fox sisters explode for not only the sisters, but also spiritualism in general.

573
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:04,960
And that year, which is 1849, they were told by someone to hold public demonstrations to spread the word of spiritualism.

574
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:12,960
In 1950, the year later, they start hosting seances in the Barnum Hotel in New York with both invited and paid guests.

575
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:19,360
And sessions were available 10 a.m. 5 p.m. and 8 p.m. for a dollar in between were private sessions.

576
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:21,600
That seems awfully steep for the time.

577
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,280
Andrew Jackson Davis seems like an interesting guy in his own right.

578
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,640
Yeah, I didn't really look into him because this is on the Fox sisters.

579
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,960
He's a famous spiritualist of the day.

580
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,160
He is, yeah.

581
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:40,640
And in the future, it might be something for us to delve into spiritualism because there's apparently a lot in that and the rise to it.

582
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,440
Which kind of, I saw a little bit of in reading this, but this is the Fox sisters.

583
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,360
Also, the most famous picture of Andrew Jackson Davis, I had to look it up to see if he was related to the president Andrew Jackson.

584
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:52,320
Apparently not.

585
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,080
He is the son of a shoemaker, had basically no education.

586
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,040
And most importantly, the most famous picture of him up there is him with an Amish beard.

587
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:01,760
Yes.

588
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,960
Yes, I've seen that picture.

589
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:03,920
It's pretty nice, isn't it?

590
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,040
It's almost as if that beard is strapping his hair down to his head.

591
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,920
If we know anything, it's that that's what those beards are for.

592
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:12,160
Yep.

593
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:19,680
They're hosting all these sessions and they're attracting people, not only Andrew Jackson Davis at this point,

594
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:26,480
they're attracting people from near and far for these sessions, including editors for publishing and the newspaper industry.

595
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,600
And some notable, but not really notable to me because I did not recognize these names.

596
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:40,800
But at the time, I'm sure they were very notable people, which included William Cullen Bryant, George Bancroft, James Fenimore Cooper,

597
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:47,520
Nathaniel Parker Willis, Horace Greeley, Sojourner Truth, and William Lloyd Garrison.

598
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,840
Did you recognize any of those people?

599
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,760
No, somebody's name is Sojourner.

600
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:52,560
Sojourner.

601
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,920
Like S-O-G-O-U-R-N-E-R.

602
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,120
S-O-J.

603
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:57,680
Yeah.

604
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,000
I get my J's and G's mixed up as well.

605
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,600
Yeah, like Sojourner is like that.

606
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,280
It's a legal term for like going on an adventure more or less.

607
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,400
Like a Sojourn is to like go about.

608
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,760
Okay, so that's weird that his name is Sojourner Truth.

609
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,720
I guess he's a walker in truth or something like that.

610
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:17,760
That is a weird name.

611
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,040
That is a weird name now that you say that that's an actual term.

612
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:26,560
Yeah, like it comes up in tax implications for like, because if you sojourn to another country.

613
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:28,160
That's so weird.

614
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:30,000
Weird.

615
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,720
Maybe we'll probably never look into that again.

616
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,160
This is all you're saying.

617
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:41,360
Hey, with all these notable people coming to the seances, this boosts their fame even more.

618
00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:44,800
And they are exploding mediums at this point.

619
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,600
Everybody's heard of the Fox sisters, especially with how popular seances are.

620
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:54,560
So not only were the notable coming out of the woodwork to go to their seances.

621
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,000
So we're imitators, obviously, hoping for a slice of the pie.

622
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,720
Hundreds of people were now claiming to be mediums and hosting their own seances.

623
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,560
I think at this point we need to go over maybe what a seance is.

624
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,920
I mean, we can't just say there's been seances in Beetlejuice and have that be it.

625
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,920
Some people might not know what a seance is or seeing Beetlejuice.

626
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,240
Or Beetlejuice, yeah, I guess.

627
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,560
We can't say that name one more time.

628
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,800
No, we're done for the episode.

629
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:23,120
Sorry, guys.

630
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:24,800
Yeah, we're done for the episode.

631
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,280
No more talking about the P word.

632
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:32,000
A seance, seance, the word is derived from we're going into this.

633
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:38,480
The French word for seat slash session and came into popularity in America in the mid 1800s

634
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,560
around this exact time frame.

635
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,960
The Fox sisters are operating it.

636
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,680
Spiritualism was super popular and gaining traction with popular figures.

637
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,480
HPB, for example, because apparently that's the only example of the spiritualism.

638
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,080
I know how to give it this point.

639
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,480
Maybe once we talk about more people, we can give more examples like the Fox sisters.

640
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,680
Yeah, exactly.

641
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,720
I'm just going to say now we can use the Fox sisters.

642
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,280
It is a meeting of people who are gathered to receive messages from ghosts or to listen

643
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,600
to a spirit medium discourse with or relay messages from spirits.

644
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,640
A seance can be any type of gathering, such as what the Fox sisters are doing.

645
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,680
They're doing readings in front of an audience, much like you see some mediums doing now,

646
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,280
just without the wrapping.

647
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,840
I always think of a seance, which is the way it's portrayed in pop culture now.

648
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,080
Of everyone gathered around a table, like holding hands, while the medium attempts to

649
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,320
contact dead spirits with a crystal ball.

650
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:35,840
That's kind of how I look at it.

651
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,680
Ectoplasm coming out of their mouth, you know, the usual.

652
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,560
So Chelsea, I'm just at this point have a question.

653
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,520
This would distinctly have a different root word than the name Sean, despite being like

654
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,880
one spelling of it being the first four letters of seance.

655
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:51,440
Yes.

656
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,560
Lest we call them Sean's instead of Seance's.

657
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,760
Or call these people Seon from now on.

658
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,080
What an interesting addition to this.

659
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:04,240
I just needed to make that point.

660
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,240
I'm glad it came up.

661
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:08,800
I don't know.

662
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,360
So they're all the rage.

663
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:12,640
It's right.

664
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,760
And as we just learned now the root word of where the name Sean came from.

665
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:25,440
Say all back to the story with all of this happening, Kate and Margarita Margarita.

666
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:26,240
Score March.

667
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,840
I don't know.

668
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:28,080
Yeah, Marge.

669
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:28,720
That's better.

670
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,520
I don't like Margaret because that's not her name.

671
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:32,560
Marge works better.

672
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,920
As I've said many times now are well known mediums.

673
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,120
I mean, here we are in 2023 still talking about them.

674
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,040
And they were giving seances by the hundreds, thousands maybe.

675
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,920
Selling out venues, stadiums, Philippeople.

676
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,520
Well, that's probably an elaboration, but rich and famous mediums.

677
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:50,240
Rooms, Philippe.

678
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,760
Yeah, rooms at least.

679
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:57,680
And they're giving advice on love affairs, the state of the railway, all the popular things to

680
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,760
be asking about at the times.

681
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,800
I'm just curious when they're doing that, they're giving their opinions on this.

682
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,800
Is it them saying that the spirits told them this or do they like knock it out?

683
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,800
Yeah, it's the wrappings that are.

684
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:09,120
Okay.

685
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,800
And then they're interpreting the knockings.

686
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:11,280
Okay.

687
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,680
Yeah, because it would be people asking questions at the seance and they'd be knocking back and

688
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:16,640
they'd interpret it.

689
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:17,040
Yeah.

690
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:24,080
And from how it was put to me in my research, how I interpreted it, let's say, I feel like

691
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,120
the neighbors came up with the system of how to figure out what the knockings were saying,

692
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,800
because the neighbors were called in.

693
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,560
Maybe the neighbors knew Morse.

694
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:38,000
I don't know if it's Morse code to be honest with you, or is this where Morse code came from?

695
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,200
No, I think a guy named Morse is where Morse code came from.

696
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,840
I can't remember his first name, but his last name is Morse.

697
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,120
And so far I have not seen a Morse in this story, so.

698
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,920
No, I can tell you there's not that guy in the story.

699
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:52,400
Okay.

700
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,040
With their rise to fame, they're going on tour.

701
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,760
Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, Washington DC, and Philadelphia.

702
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,600
The Fox sisters work resulted in making spiritualism a trend.

703
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:09,760
I cannot tell you enough how popular seances are and the trend of spiritualism at the time,

704
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,200
apparently, as well.

705
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,640
Seance is a mediumship, rows and controversy as well.

706
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,080
And we'll get into that in a few minutes, maybe.

707
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,440
I don't know how long it'll take.

708
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,880
Obviously, since there was such an explosion in popularity,

709
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,080
it inspired those to practice mediumship as well,

710
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,120
because I mean, the Fox sisters are making so much money.

711
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,280
You may want to wait until that dog stops.

712
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,040
I don't know when the dog will stop.

713
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,480
Can we interpret this in Morse code?

714
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,000
It could be Morse code, yes.

715
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,600
He could know what we're talking about and have something to say.

716
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,120
He's got to tell us about the trains.

717
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,760
Since there was such an explosion in popularity,

718
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,960
it inspired those to also practice mediumship as well,

719
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:57,760
make a profit off of it as well.

720
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,240
The Fox sisters are doing quite well for themselves.

721
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,760
This includes Victoria Claffin Woodhall, who was a...

722
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:04,560
Damn it.

723
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:05,360
This includes...

724
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:06,000
Damn it.

725
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,520
This includes Victoria Claffin Woodhall,

726
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,840
who was a leader of the women's suffrage...

727
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,040
That dog hates that name.

728
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,520
...who was a leader of the women's suffrage movement

729
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,600
and was the first woman to run for president in 1872.

730
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,800
The sisters also ultimately led to the formation

731
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,680
of cultists and pseudo-religious crusading.

732
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,880
I don't really know what that means, but we'll continue.

733
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,480
The Paris Review stated, quote,

734
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,000
From the Fox sisters, the phenomenon of spiritualism emerged,

735
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,600
not as some shadowy occult practice or roadside attraction,

736
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,400
but as an exciting way of reconciling the ineffable mysteries of the soul,

737
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,040
with the complex realities of a modern, rapidly industrializing nation.

738
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:51,680
End quote.

739
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,760
We can also credit the Fox sisters with the future spiritualist peeps,

740
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,000
such as Edgar Cayce and even Houdini, also an enemy of medium.

741
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:00,880
Yeah, he hated it.

742
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,560
A sworn enemy of mediums.

743
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,120
He did hate them with a passion,

744
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,960
but without them, Houdini wouldn't have had anybody to hate.

745
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,400
So, I'm going to go see.

746
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,480
Where would he have addressed all that rage?

747
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:14,640
Exactly.

748
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,240
I'm completely paraphrasing all of this because I don't believe

749
00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:21,840
it is the most important part of the Fox sister history,

750
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,760
but eventually they get married,

751
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,400
they get out of the spiritualism community,

752
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:32,000
and eventually become widows and die with alcohol problems and in poverty.

753
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,320
That's really the gist of it, at least.

754
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,120
I didn't really want to focus on that because there's much bigger and greater

755
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:40,240
things to talk about.

756
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:41,840
That's the not fun part.

757
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,760
Yeah, that's all you really need to know.

758
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,560
I don't want to go into any more detail than that.

759
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,360
It's just a waste of my breath, really.

760
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,640
If you want to know more, just go look into it.

761
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:53,760
Because read the left like,

762
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,000
Repair graphs of the Wikipedia page.

763
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,760
So that's the story of the Fox sisters and how they got to being so well known

764
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,840
that we're talking about them on this podcast.

765
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,280
Now, of course, I need to address the non-believers.

766
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,640
This part is often overlooked when you listen to anything about the Fox sisters.

767
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,040
A lot of articles you'll read about them completely leave this part out.

768
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,760
From the non-believers who were questioning the authenticity of them.

769
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:27,600
The physician E.P. Longworthy investigated the sisters and noted how the knockings or wraps

770
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,720
always came from under their feet and when their dresses were in contact with the table.

771
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:37,040
He concluded that Marge and Kate had produced these noises themselves.

772
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,440
He thought that it was clear that this was a result of cracking joints.

773
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:47,360
And I must say, I have heard joints crack and brittle joints if you can do that.

774
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:53,280
Yes, not only brittle, but they're specifically referred to as wrappings.

775
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,040
And when I think wrapping, I don't think of like knuckles cracking.

776
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,240
No, I think of a door.

777
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:02,720
I would be very creeped out if I would hear...

778
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,320
Yeah, you just push down your fingers and people think that there's somebody at the door.

779
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,800
I would be so creeped out if I heard that.

780
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,120
If I asked a question to a medium and you just like your joint cracking,

781
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,760
that would be so creepy and disgusting.

782
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,720
If somebody providing a seance was like cracking their fingers and you're hearing that and you're

783
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:22,000
like, are you just cracking your fingers?

784
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,080
They're like, no, no, no, that's the ghost wrapping on things.

785
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,400
I would probably want to believe that it was the ghost because that's so weird.

786
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:31,760
That's true.

787
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,360
It is the 1800s, maybe joints cracking sound different in this time.

788
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:38,000
I don't know.

789
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,800
But it's just you want to believe that it's not just a seance person cracking her knuckles.

790
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:43,440
True.

791
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,200
You want to believe so bad.

792
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,120
I just, I can't, I can't get behind it for some reason.

793
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,520
I just think that is the most bizarre explanation, but it goes on.

794
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,880
It's more than EP. John W. Hearn, who publishes articles in the New York Tribune, agreed.

795
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:05,040
The Reverend John M. Austin would later claim the noises could be made by cracking toe joints.

796
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,480
Oh, this is a different Reverend.

797
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,440
A Reverend D. Potts demonstrated to an audience that the raps could be made by this method,

798
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,880
which just like we said before, disturbing you.

799
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:15,840
I just can't.

800
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,280
I feel like depending on the wrapping, of course, this would not be what I would immediately

801
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,680
accuse someone of doing like these people.

802
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,160
They're immediately like that's cracking joints.

803
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:26,800
That's it.

804
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:26,960
Yeah.

805
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:27,600
It's fake.

806
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,080
Although if this were the case too, that backstory really confuses me.

807
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,200
Like I guess they just kind of needed to make up a backstory about it.

808
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,840
But was the kid accidentally cracking their knuckles like as a child playing alone?

809
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,400
And they're like, oh, a ghost is communicating with me.

810
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,040
Yeah.

811
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:46,560
We will talk about it.

812
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,520
The neighbors came over and explained the situation and they're like, no, no, but I like that story.

813
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:52,000
Yeah.

814
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:52,880
Let's use it.

815
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,480
As much as I live spoiler alerts, we will talk about it.

816
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,000
Oh, the ghost isn't just in the house.

817
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,120
It follows me everywhere.

818
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:00,800
Yeah.

819
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:07,440
Along with my knuckle cracking that you are so stupid to think that is a spirit just makes no sense to me.

820
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:13,200
But anyhow, as much not sense as it makes to me, there are other people in agreement with proof.

821
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,960
I just can't get behind this.

822
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,000
It's so weird.

823
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:24,000
In 1851, Mrs. Norman Culver, a relative of the Fox family, admitted in a signed statement that she

824
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,840
had assisted them during their seances by touching them to indicate when the wrap should be made.

825
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,920
She also claimed they didn't know.

826
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,840
I thought they're just like, they're in the seance.

827
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:34,640
Wouldn't they just know?

828
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,880
She also claimed that Kate and Marge revealed to her the method of producing the wraps by

829
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,080
snapping their toes and using their knees and ankles.

830
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:47,280
This is blah.

831
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:47,600
Okay.

832
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:48,400
Quick question.

833
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,600
I need some legal advice.

834
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:54,880
If I just write something out like an accusation, like for instance, loud toe knuckle cracking,

835
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,160
let's say, and I sign it, this makes it truth, right?

836
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,840
By the power invested in me.

837
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:00,320
No.

838
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:01,280
I mean, sure.

839
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:02,480
You can say it's true.

840
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:02,720
Yeah.

841
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:03,680
And then sign it.

842
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:04,720
That makes it true.

843
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:04,960
No.

844
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:10,080
I think you're thinking of like an affidavit where you get somebody with a legal certification

845
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,920
to certify that you're telling the truth or that you sign the saying that it's the truth,

846
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,640
but you just signing something doesn't mean it's true.

847
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,360
So this may not necessarily be true because she just signed a statement and said,

848
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,200
Well, if it's an affidavit, that's true.

849
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,440
Well, she's at least the firm.

850
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:25,920
Okay.

851
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,680
I feel like it's not an affidavit.

852
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:28,080
Okay.

853
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,560
Okay.

854
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,800
It's clear that it's not legally binded by Mrs. Norman Culver.

855
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:33,120
Yeah.

856
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,320
But like, there's just no like, it's not perjury to lie, just like write something down and sign it.

857
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,160
Okay.

858
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,560
So there's no legal consequences for her.

859
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:43,600
She's lying.

860
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:44,320
No.

861
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:44,800
Okay.

862
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,720
So the nonsense goes on.

863
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:51,040
1851, the reverence, there's lots of reverence at this time as well.

864
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,840
I wonder if that's also a craze around this time.

865
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:59,920
The reverence, see Chauncey Burr wrote in the New York Tribune that by cracking toe joints,

866
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:03,280
the sounds were so loud they could be heard in a large hall.

867
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:04,240
Also disturbing.

868
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:07,360
There's just a lot of disturbing details in this that just,

869
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,120
it seems to be building that this is what it is at this point,

870
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,440
pretending as if I don't know how this ends.

871
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:21,600
I just don't know without proof at this point how so much is building behind this because I just

872
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,920
feel like this is the last thing I would ever.

873
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,920
Did you find any videos on YouTube of like people showing what the sound would be like?

874
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,480
Because there's a lot of people saying they've given examples,

875
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,280
but it seems like so long ago there wouldn't be a video of it.

876
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,200
But are there YouTube videos of this?

877
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,120
I don't know, what would you Google to find a YouTube video of this?

878
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,440
Loud toe cracking medium?

879
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:42,080
Maybe.

880
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,760
Maybe we'll put a clip here.

881
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:44,480
We gotta find something.

882
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:45,280
Maybe we won't.

883
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:45,520
Yeah.

884
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,960
Maybe we'll just record some knuckle cracking.

885
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,400
But I feel like that wouldn't do, that wouldn't be heard in a large hall.

886
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:53,840
Gross.

887
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,960
The same year three investigators, Austin Flint,

888
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,920
Charles E. Lee, and C.B. Coventry from the University of Buffalo,

889
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:06,160
examined the wraps produced by the sisters and concluded they were produced by cracking

890
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,920
their bone joints, toes, knees, ankles, or hips from a control.

891
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,920
They discovered the wraps did not occur.

892
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,760
The sisters were placed on a couch with cushions under their feet.

893
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:16,480
It goes on.

894
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,640
1853, Charles Grafton Page investigates the sisters.

895
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,400
He is a patent claim examiner with an eye for fraud.

896
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,800
And he used his skills to expose some of the deceptions of the Fox sisters during the

897
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,360
sessions he attended, again he noticed the wrappings came from under the girl's dresses.

898
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,760
When he asked if the spirits could produce a sound at a distance from their own bodies,

899
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,920
when girl climbed into a wardrobe closet, where her dress touched the wood,

900
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,880
once the sound transmitted into the wood plank.

901
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:50,000
However, she was unable to control the sound sufficiently to produce spirit communications.

902
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,720
Page devised contraptions that emulated the wrapping sounds produced by the girls,

903
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:57,120
which could be concealed under long clothing.

904
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:02,240
He declaimed the girls' means of hiding the bodily examination that would expose their fraud.

905
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:08,960
It is convenient for the day that women had to wear such layers of clothes and conceal

906
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,240
everything that they really could do whatever they wanted.

907
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,320
And even like who's going to inspect them?

908
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,240
That is unproper of a gentleman or gentle lady to like inspect somebody.

909
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:24,000
But they did say before the first one that they ever did with the post that they had

910
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:24,720
been inspected.

911
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:26,800
Yeah, inspected them to make sure they didn't have it.

912
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,960
But I would be curious like how thorough are you going to inspect for that day?

913
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:31,920
True, true.

914
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:37,680
I mean if they're inspecting for like inflamed joints because of cracking?

915
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:38,080
Yeah.

916
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:39,680
I mean that can easily be a fraud.

917
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:40,960
Yeah, there's no machines.

918
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,440
Your feet are really weird but no machines.

919
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,120
It's so weird.

920
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,960
So he says this about their fraud.

921
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:56,480
A feminine security of these rappers against the inspection of their actual Cuomoto.

922
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:57,840
This is a quote after all.

923
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,920
I wouldn't just use the word Cuomoto.

924
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:01,680
I continue on with the quote here.

925
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:07,680
If by search warrant, stratagem, or v at armist, the wrapping instrument of these Fox girls has

926
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,400
been exposed to the public, there would not have been one doubt about the nature and origin

927
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,400
of the spiritual communications.

928
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,800
That's what the claim examiner said.

929
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:23,440
In 1857, the Boston courier set up a prize of $500 to any medium who could demonstrate

930
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,680
a paranormal ability to their committee.

931
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,640
The Fox sisters main attempt and were investigated by a committee which included the magician

932
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:31,680
John Wyman.

933
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,840
The committee concluded that the raps were produced by bone and feet movements and thus

934
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,000
the Fox sisters failed the challenge.

935
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:44,800
A report by the Sebert commission in 1887 stated that after investigating various mediums

936
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,920
included merge, the phenomena could have easily been produced by fraudulent methods.

937
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,560
The report noted that the raps were heard close to merge and the seance sitter,

938
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,000
Professor Furness, had felt pulsations in her foot.

939
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,200
This goes on and on with people investigating this very claim.

940
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,320
I could go on, but I would just be repeating myself with different names of people investigating.

941
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,600
Nobody even ever asked them, even at this performance.

942
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,400
Hey, can you just do the seance with your dresses three inches higher?

943
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,400
Like that was too scandalous to do.

944
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,800
Yeah, like just pull it up so we can see your feet.

945
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,560
Again, I'm just mind blown that nobody else put forth any other-

946
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,640
It's always the same thing, yeah.

947
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,960
Any other sort of like claim of fraud?

948
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:29,360
It's like-

949
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,800
And they all seem to independently be coming to this conclusion too.

950
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,800
I know, it's so weird.

951
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,240
I think it's so weird.

952
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:37,680
I'm just like mind blown.

953
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,280
Like they say it too?

954
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,360
That it's cracking of joints?

955
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:42,880
I just like what?

956
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:49,200
Kate was one of the mediums examined in by William Crook, the permanent physicist between 1871

957
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,320
and 74 who concluded the raps were genuine.

958
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,240
However, Crooks was described as being a gullible person

959
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:59,600
and the mediums he investigated were caught using trickery.

960
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,160
So the one person that I write about that's like, yeah, he's not the one person.

961
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,440
Obviously they rose to fame because people believed in what they were doing.

962
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,080
Anyhow, my next part of this story, I guess at this point you're wondering,

963
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,920
Chelsea, tell us the truth.

964
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,120
Is this real?

965
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,920
We're just talking a lot about joints cracking.

966
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:23,280
Surely it can't be just joints cracking with all these people talking about it being joints cracking.

967
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,880
Completely independent.

968
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:25,840
Exactly.

969
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,040
I don't believe it.

970
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,040
Anyhow, then I wrote this point.

971
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,720
At the end of it all, the sisters got into a little bit of a fight

972
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:38,000
and eager to harm the older sister, Leah, as much as possible if he was the manager.

973
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:43,680
The two sisters traveled to New York City where a reporter offered them $1,500

974
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,080
if they would expose their methods and give him an exclusive on the story.

975
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:53,520
Marge appeared publicly at the New York Academy of Music October 21st, 1888.

976
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:54,880
Kate was present as well.

977
00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:00,640
Lo and behold, Marge and Catherine, Kate, were behind everything after all in the statement

978
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,800
that they made they were paid for.

979
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:03,920
Let's remember that.

980
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,080
And they used wrappings like knocking.

981
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:10,560
I guess at this point I should clarify that it's not like fast rhymes to sick beats

982
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,440
to convince their older sister to fool apparently.

983
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:14,720
It was like knocking.

984
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:16,320
I should have put that at the beginning.

985
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,240
Just so that we're all on the same page.

986
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:19,760
This is 1888, correct?

987
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:20,240
Yeah.

988
00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:22,800
$1,500 and $1,88.

989
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,360
Is the equivalent of about $41,000 in 2023?

990
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:28,480
Yes, so it's a lot.

991
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:29,840
So let's remember that.

992
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:35,680
So they used the wrappings to convince their older sister, the fool apparently,

993
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,000
that they were communicating with spirits.

994
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:38,640
Yes.

995
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:44,080
Well, more specifically, Margaret confessed that the wrappings were a hoax and revealed

996
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,120
the magic trick.

997
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,840
Magician's Alliance would not be happy about that.

998
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,760
Yeah, but she's not in the Magician Alliance.

999
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:50,960
She's her own thing.

1000
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:51,520
Exactly.

1001
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:52,480
She's a medium.

1002
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,280
Maybe she's immune from the Magician Alliance because she's medium.

1003
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,240
She's part of the medium alliance and their frauds.

1004
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:06,080
Before an audience of 2,000 people, Marge demonstrated how she could produce at will

1005
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,720
raps audible throughout the theater.

1006
00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:12,880
Authors from the audience came on stage to verify that the cracking of her toe joints

1007
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,800
wore the source of the sound.

1008
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:19,680
Marge told her story of the origins of the mysterious wrappings in a signed confession.

1009
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:26,160
Given to the press and published in New York World, October 21st, 1888,

1010
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,560
in it she explained the Hyde's Bill events.

1011
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:33,280
She did try to recant her confession about a year later, but the damage was already done,

1012
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:33,920
obviously.

1013
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,960
Less than five years later, all the Fox sisters were dead,

1014
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,960
not sure if there's any correlation there or not, but you must have all the information.

1015
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:41,920
Magician's God of...

1016
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:42,160
Yep.

1017
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,680
Remember the house that they lived in?

1018
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:50,400
Marge had this to say about the knocking sounds and the bones found in the house.

1019
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:50,800
Quote,

1020
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:55,680
When we went to bed at night, we used to tie an apple to a string and move the string up

1021
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,320
and down, causing the apple to bump on the floor.

1022
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:03,360
Or we would drop the apple on the floor, making a strange noise every time it would rebound.

1023
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,440
Mother listening to this for a time.

1024
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:11,040
She would not understand it and did not suspect us as being capable of a trick because we were so young.

1025
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:11,760
End quote.

1026
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,720
Now I feel like if it was an apple dropping on the floor,

1027
00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:18,080
you would be like, that sounds like something being dropped on the floor.

1028
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:19,600
Something, yeah, like an apple.

1029
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,880
I feel like people have dropped apples on the floor.

1030
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,480
Yes, it's not a new thing to this time.

1031
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:32,320
Like literally none of this is adding up to me to be like, fool this many people.

1032
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,560
But I don't know. She had seven kids.

1033
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,240
I don't know if she had a lot of personal time to think about these noises.

1034
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:46,160
They, the neighbors that is, were convinced that someone had been murdered in the house.

1035
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:51,280
They asked the spirits through us about it and we would wrap one for the spirit answer.

1036
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,600
Yes. And three as we did afterwards, not three as we did afterwards.

1037
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,560
The murder they concluded must have been committed in the house.

1038
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,360
They were over the whole surrounding country trying to get the names of people who had formerly

1039
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:04,400
lived in the house.

1040
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,640
Finally, they found a man by the name of Bell and they said that this poor innocent

1041
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:13,680
man had committed a murder in the house and that the noises had come from the spirit of the murdered

1042
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,680
person. Poor Bell was shunned and looked upon the whole community as a murderer.

1043
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:21,280
Never did comment on the furniture moving about.

1044
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,080
So that may have been an actual haunted. We don't know.

1045
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:25,680
Lots of stuff coming out here.

1046
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:26,960
She went on.

1047
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:31,920
She said Mrs. Underhill, the eldest sister, took Katie and me to Rochester.

1048
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:37,600
There it was that we discovered a new way to make the wraps because apples were no longer an option.

1049
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:38,400
Yeah, they can find apples.

1050
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,760
They knew what apples dropping on the ground sounded like.

1051
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,360
You can be inspected for apples.

1052
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,920
They may have tried and the sister was like that was an apple on the ground.

1053
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:53,120
My sister, Katie, was the first to observe that by swishing her fingers she could produce

1054
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,520
certain noises with her knuckles and joints and that the same effect could be made with the toes.

1055
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:58,320
Okay, let me try it.

1056
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,040
Does that sound like a wrapping?

1057
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:05,120
I don't get it.

1058
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:06,240
I don't get it.

1059
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:09,200
Again, we have other things to entertain ourselves.

1060
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:10,320
Yeah, if you just.

1061
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:14,000
I'm not going to do that for more than 20 seconds before I'm like,

1062
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,760
okay, there's probably something on YouTube that's way more entertaining on this.

1063
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,160
And how do you do that without like pushing the joints?

1064
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:23,040
I don't get it.

1065
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,840
So they find, or this is still the quote.

1066
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:26,960
I'm not talking about it.

1067
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,360
Finding that we can make wraps with our feet first with one foot and then with both.

1068
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,800
We practice until we could do this easily when the room was dark.

1069
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,160
Like most perplexing things we made clear.

1070
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,640
It is astonishing how easily it is done.

1071
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:45,120
Wrapping is simply the result of perfect control of the muscles of the leg below the knee,

1072
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,680
which govern the tendons of the foot and allow the action of the toe and ankle bones that are

1073
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:50,960
not commonly known.

1074
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:56,400
Oh, such perfect control is only possible when the child is taking at an early age and

1075
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:01,040
carefully and continually taught to practice the muscles, which grows different later years.

1076
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:05,280
This then is a simple explanation of the whole method of the nox and wraps.

1077
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:10,560
She also wrote quote, a great many people when they hear the wrapping imagine at once that

1078
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,000
the spirits are touching them.

1079
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:13,920
It is a very common delusion.

1080
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:19,680
Some very wealthy people came to see me some years ago when I lived in 42nd street and did some

1081
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,080
wrappings for them. I meet the spirit wrap on the chair and one of the ladies cried out,

1082
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,480
I feel the spirit tapping me on the shoulder.

1083
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,640
Of course it was pure imagination.

1084
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:34,480
So that's the Fox sisters and to end the episode, I will leave you with some powering

1085
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,560
words from the sister from the sisters.

1086
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:37,600
I don't think that's a word.

1087
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,920
I will leave you with some words from the sisters.

1088
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,040
Parting words.

1089
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:41,760
Is that what you meant?

1090
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:42,720
Parting.

1091
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:43,520
It is.

1092
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,520
That was a me spelling error.

1093
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:50,000
I will leave you with some parting words from the sisters.

1094
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:55,600
Quote that I have been chiefly instrumental in perpetuating the fraud of spiritualism upon

1095
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,360
a too confiding public.

1096
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:02,160
Most of you doubtless know this greatest sorrow in my life has been that this is true.

1097
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,640
And though it has come late in my day, I am now prepared to tell the truth, the whole truth

1098
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:07,920
and nothing about the truth.

1099
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:09,360
So help me God.

1100
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:14,320
I am here tonight as one of the founders of spiritualism to denounce it as an absolute

1101
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:20,000
falsehood from beginning to end as the flimsiest of superstitions, the most wicked blasphemy

1102
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:21,520
known to the world.

1103
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:22,520
End quote.

1104
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:30,400
Margarita Marge Fox Kane quoted in a B Davenport, the death blow to spiritualism page 76 and

1105
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:38,480
from Kate Fox Jenkins quoted in the New York Herald October 9th 1888 quote, I regard spiritualism

1106
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,080
as one of the greatest curses that the world has ever known.

1107
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,080
End quote.

1108
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:48,240
I take no responsibility for that.

1109
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:49,240
And that's it.

1110
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:51,400
That's what we have on the Fox sisters.

1111
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:52,800
That took me on a journey.

1112
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:53,800
I'm honestly not sure.

1113
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:59,040
Even that last little bit, I was unaware that they like fully had statements of like, oh

1114
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,040
yeah, this is all fake.

1115
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,040
Yeah, but I'm torn on it.

1116
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,160
I really am because it's a lot of cash.

1117
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,200
It's a lot of cash, especially at the time.

1118
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:15,000
And I don't know that I am buying that this is just cracking of joints.

1119
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:20,520
And to me, a lot of people came out and were like, clearly it's the cracking of joints.

1120
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,720
And they were offered money, like a lot of money to come out and say this.

1121
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:26,120
I can't say that.

1122
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:31,080
But like they with this money were able to reproduce the sound, right?

1123
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:32,080
True.

1124
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:36,640
I have to assume they're like, and by the way, this is the sound I'm making.

1125
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,800
I have to assume that it was included.

1126
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:40,400
It wasn't just a statement.

1127
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:44,760
They do say that the doctor comes up and is like, yep, that's the sound.

1128
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:45,760
So there's that.

1129
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:46,760
I don't know.

1130
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,760
I'm just like really cracking of joints.

1131
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:49,760
That's what that was.

1132
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:50,760
Yeah, I know.

1133
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,840
And like we've said in many of these episodes, when we actually look into these stories

1134
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:59,760
of extraordinary, it's fairly banal and quite terrible answers.

1135
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:01,760
You end up coming to it.

1136
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:06,080
That is the one thing that we always come up with on this podcast.

1137
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:07,080
Where to be disappointed.

1138
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:08,080
Yes.

1139
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,160
And on this one, it is the cracking of joints behind it all.

1140
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:16,560
The entire seance industry depended on arthritis from an early childhood.

1141
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,360
It's true.

1142
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,360
And they were horribly disfigured under their dresses.

1143
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:23,360
So that's the episode.

1144
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:28,000
The only question I have then, so they entirely made up that there was a history of hauntings

1145
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,400
in their house, right?

1146
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,280
Because we started out the story saying that they had moved into what was known as a haunted

1147
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:34,280
house.

1148
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:35,280
Yes.

1149
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,680
They had a seer kind of bloodline to their family.

1150
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,040
So I think they just took it and ran with it.

1151
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:46,200
From what I could tell, though, the house did have a reputation of being haunted around

1152
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:47,200
the time.

1153
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,000
And they just used that to their advantage.

1154
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,000
Okay.

1155
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,960
Because they did also say, like I said, that furniture moved around, but it never made

1156
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,680
another appearance other than the wrappings.

1157
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,840
I think that really was what caught the attention.

1158
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:00,840
Yeah.

1159
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:02,040
That they could communicate with.

1160
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:03,040
So.

1161
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:04,040
Okay.

1162
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:05,040
Yeah.

1163
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,080
And yet a unique and different way from the last time, Chelsea.

1164
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:09,560
It won't be the last.

1165
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,560
I look forward to being disappointed even more in the future.

1166
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,480
Yes, of course.

1167
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,360
But in the meantime, I have been Taylor here with Chelsea.

1168
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:18,920
We are Journey to the Fringe.

1169
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,400
Thank you all for listening and we will see you next week.

1170
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:22,400
Bye.

1171
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,840
Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe.

1172
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:33,040
If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or follow,

1173
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,160
depending on what venue you are listening to us through.

1174
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:42,320
Also please, if possible, leave a five star review as that really helps us in the algorithms.

1175
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,160
Should you wish to interact with us, please check us out on your social media of choice.

1176
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:48,880
I bet you we are there.

1177
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:53,360
And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell

1178
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,920
us that we're wrong and terrible, either way, please send us an email at Journey to

1179
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,280
the Fringe at gmail.com.

1180
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,040
For now, I'll see you in the next episode.