1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,220 It should be noted that this episode is a continuation of our previous episode, The Dark Knight of Sidonia Rises, Richard C. Hoagland. 2 00:00:08,220 --> 00:00:12,660 If you have not already listened to that episode, then this episode might be a little confusing, 3 00:00:12,660 --> 00:00:18,780 so I highly recommend that you now go back and listen to the episode, The Dark Knight of Sidonia Rises, Richard C. Hoagland. 4 00:00:18,780 --> 00:00:21,760 For those of you who already have listened to it, enjoy the episode. 5 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,060 Chelsea, have you heard about Cop City? 6 00:00:24,060 --> 00:00:27,340 No, but I don't think I do. 7 00:00:27,340 --> 00:00:29,600 It's a good topic starter. 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,180 Yeah, no, you... yeah, of course you do. 9 00:00:32,180 --> 00:00:33,040 Okay. 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:41,840 It's a weird story out of Atlanta that I think more people should know about, so if this just happens to kind of fill you in on what's going on, I think it's good. 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,400 So I found an article just to kind of give an overview. It was on The Guardian. 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:51,580 If it doesn't come up in this article, basically what it is, is the police have decided that they need a training facility. 13 00:00:51,580 --> 00:00:53,380 It's going to be 70 acres large. 14 00:00:53,380 --> 00:00:57,480 They're going to destroy an old growth forest to build it. 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:04,100 And they're just basically going to build a mock Atlanta so they can practice working with SWAT teams and bombs. 16 00:01:04,100 --> 00:01:06,040 Okay, this sounds weird. 17 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:13,280 Yeah, it was slated to go in last year, despite the fact that 70% of Atlanta disproves of this plan. 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:14,820 Yeah, that sounds about right. 19 00:01:14,820 --> 00:01:23,240 Since right about when they said they're going to do it, there's been protests in this forest and tons of people are protesting so that construction companies can't get into there to start building it. 20 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:23,720 Okay. 21 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,840 And I think that gives you at least enough background. 22 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:26,440 Yeah, that seems to be right. 23 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,400 To start going through what's been happening. 24 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:35,780 And if I know anything about people protesting old growth forests, it's that they eventually kick the people out and cut it down. 25 00:01:35,780 --> 00:01:38,440 Or you know, the police doing something they want to do. 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:39,840 Ah, yes. 27 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,840 Because the police want this training facility at the end of the day. 28 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,900 This article's on The Guardian. It came out January 28th, so it is very recent. 29 00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:52,200 It is called Georgia is Seeking to Define Cop City Protests as Terrorism Experts Say. 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:53,800 Oh my God, no. 31 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,140 This is written by Timothy Pratt in Atlanta. 32 00:01:57,140 --> 00:02:04,600 When author and environmental movement expert Will Potter saw the Atlanta police chief, Darren Shearbaum, tell a recent press conference, quote, 33 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:10,000 it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an attorney to tell you that breaking windows and setting fires is not protest. 34 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:10,960 It's terrorism. 35 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:11,360 End quote. 36 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:12,680 He could not believe his ears. 37 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,440 The problem Porter told The Guardian is that while you may not have to be a rocket scientist, quote, 38 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:23,240 the reality is it's been difficult to come to an understanding of what terrorism is and what political violence is for decades. 39 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:23,740 End quote. 40 00:02:23,740 --> 00:02:32,300 Shearbaum was speaking about a march through Midtown Atlanta, Georgia last Saturday night that began peacefully only to see several protesters 41 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:36,240 separate and begin breaking windows of businesses and lighting fires to a police car. 42 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:44,300 The marchers were protesting cop city in 85 acre, 90 million dollar training facility planned for South River Forest, a wooded area southeast of the city. 43 00:02:44,300 --> 00:02:47,560 They were also protesting the fatal police shooting of Tordeguida. 44 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:48,960 Tordeguida, I'm sorry. 45 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:50,840 He's from El Salvador, I believe. 46 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,240 His name's hard for me to pronounce. 47 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:59,280 A fellow activist less than a week earlier on a raid in the Atlanta forest where dozens have been tree sitting and camping for more than years. 48 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:04,360 And this kid died in a SWAT team attack on the protesters. 49 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,680 If it doesn't come up later, I will explain what happened. 50 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:14,040 The march arrests of 18 activists charged under a state domestic terrorism law, a series of raids on forests in recent weeks and 51 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,280 Tordeguida's killing have escalated tensions over cop city. 52 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:22,560 They culminated Thursday afternoon in the Georgia governor, Brian Kamp, declaring a state of emergency under the order. 53 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,680 Up to 1000 national guard troops will be available until February 9th or upon further order. 54 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:36,080 These actions have all been matched by a strident rhetoric for police and politicians in Georgia, seeking to define a largely peaceful protest movement, 55 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:41,160 often focused on environmental and racial justice issues and those who participate in it as terrorists. 56 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:47,040 And it should be noted that this forest area is in a predominantly black neighborhood in Atlanta. 57 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,880 So that's, yeah, that's another part of it that comes up. 58 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:56,160 It has shocked many observers, including Potter, who see a crude attempt to use as powerful tools as possible to crush opposition. 59 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,960 Quote, I can't help but think it's to shut the protest down or remove them from the public spotlight. 60 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,240 Potter said of Kemp's orders Thursday. 61 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:09,320 Potter has looked at changing federal government approaches to pursuing terrorism charges against environmental activists in his book. 62 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:14,000 Green is the new red and insiders account of social movements under siege. 63 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:20,080 These efforts culminated in attempts to charge activists with domestic terrorism during the 2000s on at least 70 occasions, 64 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,440 succeeding in only 18, according to a 2018 report by the Intercept. 65 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:30,880 On Saturday night, six activists in Atlanta were arrested and charged with domestic terrorism, bringing the total since December to 18. 66 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:38,680 All have been charged under a Georgia statute, marking the first time the state law has been used this way in the history of the environmental movements in the U.S. 67 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:45,800 On the 18th of January, Tordegüeda also became the first environmental activist killed by police in U.S. history, as experts said. 68 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:52,920 The Georgia Bureau of Investigation said Tordegüeda, or Manuel Esteban Paz-Teran, had shot an officer first, 69 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:58,520 and in recent days has produced photos of a gun and a firearm transaction record that appears to be in Terran's name. 70 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:05,120 The agency charged with investigating Georgia police shootings also said ballistic evidence from the wounds officer matches the gun, 71 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,960 and that there is no body cam or other footage of the shooting. 72 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,760 And this part pissed me off a lot too. 73 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,720 They sent in a SWAT team to try to break up the cop city protesters. 74 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,880 None of them were wearing police body cams. 75 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:16,680 Of course they weren't. 76 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,920 So this guy got shot. The cops say he shot at them first, but they have no body cameras to prove what they're saying is true, 77 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:28,520 despite the fact we know those things exist, and if you think crimes are going to happen or your side of the story might be questioned, you fucking wear those. 78 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:29,000 Yeah. 79 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,400 And most of the protesters say they only heard one round of shots, not like back and forth. 80 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,960 So protesters don't believe he shot first. 81 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:44,000 The rest comes on the heels of at least a year's worth of rising public chorus from camp, law enforcement officials and others using the term terrorists to describe the protesters, 82 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:50,040 even as opposition to the cop city project has grown since Atlanta City Council approved it in late 2021. 83 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:56,640 Eli Bennett and Joshua Schiffer, two Atlanta attorneys representing some of the activists, both told the Guardian the state statute is overly vague. 84 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:03,320 Four of the 18 cases brought under federal domestic terrorism charges during the 2000s were dismissed due to allegations being too vague. 85 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:10,800 According to the Intercept, it's too easy to abuse and I strongly have issue with how domestic terrorism is thrown around in the state law, Schiffer said. 86 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:20,080 A arrest affidavits obtained by the Guardian for seven activists arrested 18th of January during the same police raid on South River Forest in which Tordegueta was killed. 87 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:31,840 Begin by alleging that defendants were, quote, participating in actions as part of Defend the Atlanta Forest, a group classified by the United States Department of Homeland Security as domestic violent extremists. 88 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:38,200 And I just again want to quote what the name of this is, Defend the Atlanta Forest, apparently domestic violent extremists. 89 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,680 But a Homeland Security DHS spokesperson responded to a query by the Guardian, quote, 90 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:53,560 The Department of Homeland Security does not classify or designate any groups as domestic violent extremists, adding that the agency also regularly shares information regarding perceived threats to the safety and security of all communities. 91 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,040 Meanwhile, a White House bulletin issued early in the Biden administration underlined, quote, 92 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:11,560 The two most lethal elements of today's domestic terrorism threat are one, racially or ethnically motivated violent extremists who advocate for the superiority of the white race, and two, anti-government or anti-authority violent extremists such as militia violent extremists. 93 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,240 We're going to give just a blurb of the rest. 94 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:18,520 Broadening definitions and sentencing guidelines arising from these efforts resulted in a situation where, quote, 95 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:26,320 Even writing pro-animal slogans on sidewalk and chalk, unquote, could get you charged with terrorism, said Ryan Shapiro, co-founder of Property of People. 96 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:34,080 A national security-oriented nonprofit organization focused on transparency that has released thousands of FBI and CIA documents exposing government over each. 97 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:41,400 Similarly, Bill McKibbin, author of 20 books on climate change and other subjects, wrote this week that, according to Georgia's domestic terrorism law, quote, 98 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:47,280 Lie down in front of a police car and you're a terrorist who could spend many, many years behind bars, end quote. 99 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:55,080 Shapiro shared documents with the Guardian obtained through FOIA, showing that lack of agreement on legal framework around terrorism inhibits DHS's work. 100 00:07:55,080 --> 00:08:01,320 The case in Georgia arises from another thread in the recent history of approaches to domestic terrorism, Shapiro noted, quote, 101 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:11,280 The post-911 downward creep of national security justification has provided local police with counterterrorism powers previously limited to the FBI and other federal agencies, he said. 102 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,240 I think I can leave that there. There are more paragraphs. Go take a look if you want. 103 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,040 Chelsea, that gives you the gist though, right? 104 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,800 Yeah, that is infuriating. 105 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:26,880 And you see that in so many things where there's people protesting things, but you know what? The bigger agency wants it to happen. 106 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,600 And so they just find ways to end up taking it. 107 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:38,160 And it's so wrong on so many levels that they're upping essentially the legality of these people to protest something. 108 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:39,520 Being all growth force. 109 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:47,040 And we see that here over here on Vancouver Island as well, people protesting this and yet they're still carrying these all growth trees down. 110 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:52,640 We've talked about the problem with the power grid being targeted by individuals in the past. 111 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,800 And hell, not that long ago. That was at least at the latest on our New Year's episode. 112 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:58,400 One thing I never mentioned any of those. 113 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,880 Anybody getting charged as a terrorist for targeting the power. 114 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,120 But trees, because that's a resource. 115 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,800 That just isn't something that does happen, but protecting trees. Yes. 116 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:14,000 But as something a resource that people, you know, want out of the way because I mean, they can use it for other things, 117 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,760 but they also want it for land to use to do police scenarios. 118 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,200 Like it's ridiculous. 119 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:27,080 It is. If you want to learn more status coup status, COUP on YouTube has actually done a great job talking to people about this issue. 120 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,120 And there is a place to donate. 121 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,960 So far, these protests are actually done a great job stalling Cops City from getting built. 122 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:40,840 If you're on that side of it, which I am, I believe construction is now eight months behind schedule just because these people won't let them even start. 123 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,160 So if they can just keep postponing it, 124 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,920 eventually they might actually get something out of this. 125 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,160 Yeah, I hope so. I really hope they do. 126 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,760 And I want to give you guys all a place to go to donate. 127 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,360 It's ATLsolidarity.org. 128 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,240 You can put it in the episode notes. 129 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:02,400 If you feel like donating to a cause to stop this Cops City from being built, ATLsolidarity.org. 130 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:03,680 Chelsea, anything else to add? 131 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:05,920 No, that's so depressing. I don't. 132 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:11,040 It just gives you such a feeling of hopelessness that they're just going to do whatever they want anyway. 133 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,880 But they want that feeling of hopelessness, particularly with the people protesting. 134 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:14,320 Yeah. 135 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,720 And that's why they're charging them with terrorism to think that their repercussions are going to be far worse than they actually should be. 136 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:20,760 It's disgusting. 137 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:21,760 Far protesting. 138 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,120 Which they have all the right to. 139 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:23,840 Yeah, they do. 140 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:25,520 And with that, let's get on with this episode. 141 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:26,360 Okay. 142 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,400 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe. 143 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:40,560 Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, where we find our episode already in progress. 144 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:45,600 Next up for things he talks about, he really likes to talk about how NASA keeps tons of secrets. 145 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,560 Specifically, why they keep the secrets? 146 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:51,200 Well, first off, because it was started by and run by Nazis. 147 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:52,800 That's, he brings that up all the time. 148 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,000 It's a bit of a half truth. 149 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,560 We've covered this before on Operation Paperclip, Nazis to the Moon. 150 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:01,040 The US did brung over rocket engineers from Nazi's. 151 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,560 Germany after the war. 152 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:10,160 However, NASA started before that and there were other people involved well before any 153 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:11,680 Nazi involvement started. 154 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:14,080 And he says it's still a Nazi one thing. 155 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,640 It's full of people that have no connections. 156 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,600 But that doesn't stop him from talking about it. 157 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,680 He also talks about the Brookings report. 158 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:26,400 Copeland asserts that this report was commissioned by NASA and states the public cannot be informed 159 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,720 of extraterrestrial life, whether past or present, as they do not have the capacity to 160 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,040 handle this information. 161 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,000 This is a partial truth that is incredibly misleading. 162 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,480 It's a 200 plus page document in the most interesting sections of the report. 163 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,520 The author contemplated the possibility that contact might be made with extraterrestrial 164 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,480 intelligence and they warned that this might not be an unmitigated cause for celebration. 165 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,120 This is a quote from the Brookings report. 166 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,800 Anthropological files contain many examples of societies sure of their place in the universe, 167 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,640 which have disintegrated when they have had to associate with previously unfamiliar societies 168 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,120 with thousands of different ideas in different life ways. 169 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,360 Others that survived such such an experience usually did so by paying the price of changes 170 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,480 in values and attitudes and behavior. 171 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,680 That's on page 183 and on page 103. 172 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:15,840 It has been speculated that of all groups, scientists and engineers might be the most 173 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,240 devastated by the discovery of relatively spooktury creatures, since these professions 174 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,160 are most clearly associated with the master of nature rather than with the understanding 175 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,720 of expression of man. 176 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:30,960 This understanding of nature might vitiate all our theories at the very least if not 177 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,800 also require a culture and perhaps a brain inaccessible to earth scientists. 178 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:40,000 So it did say a few things that would be negatives of finding aliens and also has positives. 179 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,240 Quote on page 183. 180 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,800 The knowledge that life existed in other parts of the universe might lead to a greater unity 181 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:50,680 of men on earth based on the oneness of man or on the age old assumption that any stranger 182 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:51,680 is threatening. 183 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:56,440 This would depend on what if anything was communicated between man and the other beings. 184 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:02,320 So it's over 200 page document that he breaks down to humans would freak out if we saw aliens. 185 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,800 So NASA's not allowed to tell us there's anything about aliens and they hide it. 186 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,320 They specifically hide it. 187 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:14,600 And I saw the argument against why that's stupid in that if NASA found evidence of alien 188 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,280 life, their budget would absolutely balloon. 189 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,840 Like they would get so much more money to investigate this life. 190 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,720 So why would they still be hiding it? 191 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:24,720 There's a lot of things. 192 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,240 Well, it's seen like a half hole in his story so far. 193 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:30,240 And that's eat finds. 194 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,880 He was one of these guys who finds half truth and elaborates on them to the point where 195 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,600 you can't say he's fully lying. 196 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,160 He's just taking things out of context or in a way they're not. 197 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,960 Yeah, or misunderstanding it entirely. 198 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,840 I wouldn't even say it's like a half truth. 199 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,720 It's like you can't say it's wrong, but the way he's interpreting it is wrong. 200 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,520 But if you called him out on it, you say, well, it says it in the Brookings report and 201 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,480 he would technically be right. 202 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,720 But I feel like anywhere he's going is specifically not letting him get called out. 203 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,440 They're just letting him go on. 204 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:04,440 Oh, yeah. 205 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,280 And he tends to dominate conversations. 206 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,200 If you ever see a show with him, he's leading it to where he wants it to go. 207 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,760 And he's almost taking his intellect and holding it over the host and saying, look how much 208 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:15,760 smarter I am. 209 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,800 I'm actually going to teach the host what's going on. 210 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:18,800 Yeah. 211 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,720 And I wouldn't necessarily call that intellect. 212 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:21,720 Yeah. 213 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,960 I listened to a lot of podcasts to get in the mood for this and he does this a lot. 214 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,640 I wouldn't call it intellect. 215 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:33,720 It's more just, you know, having that charisma and ego be able to steer the conversation 216 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,280 even when you're wrong because he clearly isn't smarter than most of these people because 217 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:39,280 he has no idea. 218 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:44,040 And I wish I could really find some of like comments from the guy who hired him at his 219 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:49,560 first curator gig or from the media who hired him as their science advisor and like see, 220 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:50,880 like, do you regret it? 221 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,840 Why did this relationship end? 222 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:54,840 And like, what actually happened to get it there? 223 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:55,840 Yeah. 224 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,440 And what drew you to him to want to hire him? 225 00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,800 But we'll talk about that in a bit. 226 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,360 That's unfortunately like it was in the 60s. 227 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,160 So it was before the internet. 228 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,800 There's not a great record of it. 229 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,320 And then everybody that's really involved in that and I are then that him is dead because 230 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,360 he's in his late 70s. 231 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,240 Next up, he talks about torsion fields. 232 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:19,320 This came up in the Sedonia thing, his idea of hyper physics and that there's basically 233 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:24,280 an endless supply of free energy that can be tapped into from the fourth dimension. 234 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,680 This comes right from the rational wiki on his views of torsion fields. 235 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,360 And so I'm just going to read right from it. 236 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:35,120 Rational wiki is fantastic because it is very partisan and I'm just going to read it word 237 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,600 for word as it shows up because I find it hilarious. 238 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:38,600 That's what we need right now. 239 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,520 I feel like what does he say about torsion fields? 240 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:46,680 The idea bracket, it does not amount to a theory, close bracket is that massive objects 241 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,880 rotating at high speed create torsion fields that propagate through space and interact 242 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,000 with any matter they pass through. 243 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,880 Changing that matter is inertia. 244 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:01,520 Hogan stole this idea from or was inspired by the amateur scientist Bruce De Palma on 245 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:02,520 his website. 246 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:03,520 Hogan explains as follows. 247 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:08,080 De Palma, since the 1970s, has been carrying out perhaps the most exhaustive laboratory 248 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,880 studies of what bodies and motions. 249 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,560 Rotating massive objects over 30 pounds, spinning at very high velocities around 7600 revolutions 250 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,200 per minute that I had ever seen. 251 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:22,200 He had thereby accumulated an extensive experimental database on a subject not normally dealt with 252 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,440 in mainstream physics or mechanics, rotation. 253 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,720 De Palma proposed as a result of his wide ranging rotations experiments that quote rotating 254 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,920 masses and quote in general set up some kind of hitherto unrecognized quote inertial field 255 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,880 and quote in their vicinity bracket. 256 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:42,560 The more widely used term for this field now because of how it's assessed is a quote torsion 257 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,880 field unquote because torsion means literally rotation close bracket. 258 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,360 Massive objects include distant planets and even the sun. 259 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:56,200 Hogan has extended the idea to stating without proof that large pyramids amplify this effect. 260 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,720 On red ice internet radio in February of 2013, Hogan stated quote the predictions of this 261 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:06,360 model are overwhelmingly confirmed and quote this statement is bullshit crossed out an 262 00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:07,480 exaggeration. 263 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:12,760 The fact is that this quote model unquote is loosely defined and he has never made a 264 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,120 specific enough prediction to test it. 265 00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:19,200 Although he has said repeatedly that he has measured the torsion field and he has never 266 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:24,080 stated any actual measurements or even said what units the fields will be measured in. 267 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,840 Neither has he ever stated the mathematical relationship between the frequency of the 268 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:32,080 torsion field and that of the acutron which is the device he uses to measure it. 269 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,720 So he has an experimental apparatus that he uses to measure it. His experimental apparatus 270 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,520 consists of a boulevard acutron wristwatch hooked up to a precision frequency center 271 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:46,560 which is in turn cable to a laptop computer which displays the exact frequency of the 272 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,840 watch's tuning fork as a function of time. 273 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,720 He likes people to think he rigged this all up himself but in fact the microset sensor 274 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,800 and software were supplied by Brian Mumford of Mumford Microsystems and the computer 275 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,360 hookup was done for him by Bill Alec. 276 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:07,200 Hogan together with his former companion the homeopathist Robin Falcov has taken this 277 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,160 equipment to Mexico, Florida and the UK to test the idea. Usually taking it to some 278 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,880 massive stone structure at the time of an eclipse or transit. Never case he has proclaimed 279 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,760 the result stunning or astonishingly confirmatory. 280 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:25,440 And after the abortive expedition to Manakea in May of 2013 he said the technology can 281 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:26,440 save the planet. 282 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,520 However, quite apart from the shakiness of the underlying idea, there are a number of 283 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,520 very grave problems with the protocol and data interpretation. He calls his sorties 284 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,680 experiments but as science they are unconvincing to put it mildly. 285 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:44,160 And on his radio show on April 1st 2018 he announced that he had broken the device. I 286 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,800 made a mistake the other day and dropped the damn thing on a hardwood floor. It obviously 287 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,520 has incredible fine wires in broke. He appeals for donations to pay for repairs but there 288 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,480 is no sign that this very small audience coughed. 289 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:02,640 Well that about tracks with everything we've heard so far. The whole thing not just dropping. 290 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:08,040 This next one I find hilarious because it just gives you the mindset that he has and 291 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,280 the trouble that we're seeing with him particularly with stealing other people's ideas. 292 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:17,520 So this comes from an article titled The Face Behind the Face on Mars. A skeptical look at 293 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,040 Richard C. Hoagland by Gary P. Postner. 294 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:25,600 So Hoagland told an audience on July 13th 1990 that quote, Carl I'm gonna add in here 295 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,720 again because that's who they're talking about. 296 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,960 For many years has been taking public credit for the pioneer plaque which of course Eric 297 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:37,320 Burgess and I can see. The pioneer plaque is basically a piece of gold plated material 298 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:42,280 that we sent into space on the pioneer space probes because it went off outside of our 299 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:47,600 solar system. We said hey wouldn't it be neat if this is the first thing that if we actually 300 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,920 it runs into aliens they actually see this and they can learn about us. 301 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:51,920 You can find it online. 302 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,400 Richard Hoagland did this. 303 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,440 He says he did. Carl for many years has been taking public credit for the pioneer plaque 304 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,520 which of course Eric Burgess and I conceived. On a broadcast later that year on November 305 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,160 16th he added that Carl was involved with Eric Burgess and me in the design of the message 306 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,160 and quote. 307 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,360 Then the publishers forward to the Monions Mars heat we find this message. 308 00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:14,800 Among Hoagland's most valued contributions to history and science is the conception along 309 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,680 with Eric Burgess of mankind's first interstellar message in 1971. 310 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,000 The engraved plaque carried beyond the solar system by the first man made object to escape 311 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,000 from the sun's influence. 312 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,920 Hoagland and Burgess took the idea to Carl Sagan who successfully executed it aboard 313 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,880 this spacecraft and acknowledged their creation in the prestigious journal science. 314 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:37,520 When I inquired of Carl Sagan as the precise nature of Hoagland's role in the creation 315 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,640 and design of the pioneer template, Sagan's reply September 6th 1990 made it clear that 316 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,560 Eric Burgess and Richard Oakland did no more than suggest to me that a message be put aboard 317 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:48,960 pioneer 10 and 11. 318 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,680 Frank Drake and I of the Drake equation fame which we did an episode on as well with an 319 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:58,760 assist from Linda Sagan Carl's wife at the time who prepared the artwork did the design 320 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,960 and I was responsible for getting it through the NASA and White House approval process. 321 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,120 Hoagland did not contribute one bit of data towards the message design and quote. 322 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:11,040 Yeah, just based on everything we've gone through I could see him taking credit for 323 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,400 that if didn't fact say there should be a message. 324 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,520 He was vaguely around it at the time. 325 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:17,520 Right. 326 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:18,520 That was him. 327 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,680 Frank Drake confirmed Sagan's account quote on September 27th and October 18th. 328 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,040 I believe this is 1990 but I don't know for sure quote. 329 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,400 Neither Eric Burgess nor Richard Hoagland contributed any ideas or even suggestion as 330 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,160 to what should be on the pioneer 10 and no suggestion as to any message content. 331 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,760 They did point out that pioneer 10 was going to leave the solar system and it would be 332 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,080 nice to put some form of message on it. 333 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:42,680 That was as far as the involvement went. 334 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,680 I am sure that Eric Burgess would be glad to confirm this the idea that there should 335 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,280 be an engraved plaque and the type of information which should be engraved was developed mutually 336 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:52,280 by Carl and me. 337 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,440 I remember very clearly that we started with completely open minds as to what the message 338 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,720 should be and without any prior suggestion as possible message content end quote. 339 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,960 In a note of acknowledgments at the conclusion of Sagan and Drake's February 25th 1972 science 340 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,360 article entitled a message from earth they put this quote Burgess and Hoagland are credited 341 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:15,240 with the initial suggestion to include some message aboard pioneer 10 end quote. 342 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,240 But as Hoagland acknowledges on page 98 of his own book it was actually Burgess who first 343 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,160 said to Hoagland it ought to carry a message end quote. 344 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,680 Then on the next line Hoagland claims that he had already thought of the idea. 345 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,480 Yeah I gotta say I'm on Richard Hoagland's side at this point. 346 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,560 Richard see Hoagland though I'm not sure about it. 347 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,640 So quote that was the unvoiced thought which had been nagging at me ever since I gazed 348 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,480 through the craft's thick quartz windows end quote. 349 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,120 So at the end he's being credited with doing this the plaque. 350 00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,960 It turns out that somebody came to him as they're talking and says they should include 351 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:50,960 a message on this. 352 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,520 And he's like oh yeah I thought about that the other day I count is coming up with the 353 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,680 idea. 354 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,640 So this guy carry telephones Burgess who told him the following story. 355 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,040 I came up with the idea that the craft carry message from earth and I mentioned it at lunch 356 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:11,000 that afternoon to Hoagland then a freelance writer and Don Bain Los Angeles Herald examiner 357 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:17,080 note also character who didn't say oh yeah I thought of that yesterday include me in this. 358 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,000 And I said that the right man to get this aboard would be Carl Sagan so I went around 359 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,320 to the jet propulsion labs and Hoagland was in tow with me and found Sagan and I said 360 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,160 hey Carl I've got an idea for you. 361 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,680 All Hoagland did was support me and say it's a good idea. 362 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:32,680 Yeah. 363 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,200 Oh this guy. 364 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:39,280 And then I have to find I hope I didn't close this web page because it is fucking hilarious. 365 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:45,840 I wanted to ask if you have this is a while back a clip of when Art Bell called out that 366 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:46,840 guy. 367 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:52,160 I tried so hard to find it but okay no it's lost the time or in the catalogs which I'm 368 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,560 not willing to pay for. 369 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:54,720 No no yeah. 370 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,600 Oh man did I close this window I really hope I didn't. 371 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,480 I did damn it that's okay. 372 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:00,480 When you're recently close. 373 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,800 Yeah I'm going to go to my history really quick. 374 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:09,520 This is written by an Andrew Johnson who is apparently well known in the 9-11 community. 375 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,400 That's the information that he kind of pedals the conspiracy. 376 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,760 Written on April 11th 2011 is Richard Hoagland on a dark mission. 377 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,440 I was interested that on Sunday April 3rd 2011 Richard Hoagland gave a presentation 378 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:26,440 in Amsterdam as part of a conference entitled quote secret space program unquote in August 379 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:27,440 2010. 380 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,960 I was made aware by the organizer Jerome van Stratten that this conference will be 381 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:31,960 happening. 382 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,560 At that time I had spoken to Jerome at the exo politics leads conference where I presented 383 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,240 quote the case for anti-gravity. 384 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,880 This presentation fits directly into the secret space program research area. 385 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,480 Jerome did invite me to have a table to distribute some materials there. 386 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,280 However due to certain timing and family commitments I decided not to attend. 387 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,440 I was also grateful to Jerome for offering to display a few copies of my self published 388 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,520 book entitled 9-11 finding the truth. 389 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:01,760 Jerome also displayed some DVDs of a TV presentation of myself and Dr. Judy Wood that 390 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,080 was done in February 2009 about the destruction of the World Trade Center. 391 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,040 I wish in retrospect that I had decided to attend as I may have been able to question 392 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,280 Mr. Hoagland about a number of aspects of what was presented. 393 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,800 One might have thought that Mr. Hoagland would present something about his research from 394 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,680 his dark mission book co-authored with Mike Vera. 395 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,040 However much of the material that he presented had nothing to do with dark mission. 396 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,040 What? 397 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,160 Mars, Yapotis or any of those subjects. 398 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,960 Rather the material he presented was primarily about the events of 9-11. 399 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:30,960 What? 400 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,680 Yes, some readers may know of my special interest in 9-11 as it is the topic I have 401 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,960 written about the most on his website and about which I have the most information posted. 402 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,640 Similarly, readers will likely know of my association with Dr. Judy Wood who has singularly 403 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,320 done more than any other researcher to determine what actually happened and take that knowledge 404 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,600 forward into a quay tam complaint against NIST's contractors for ScienceFrog. 405 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,480 The complaint was eventually filed to the US Supreme Court. 406 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,320 When I first listened to Hoagland's presentation I was frankly shocked. 407 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,200 For about one and a half hours he presented some of the catalog of the evidence that Dr. 408 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,320 Judy Wood had compiled and made available on her website. 409 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,440 Though Mr. Hoagland did reference Dr. Judy Wood's name and made brief mention of her 410 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:17,320 website it must be pointed out that Mr. Hoagland has never been in contact with either Dr. 411 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,720 Wood or myself before or after this presentation. 412 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,560 Neither of us had any idea that he would be presenting this research in as much detail 413 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:24,560 as he did. 414 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,640 Neither of people have already made remarks such as isn't it fantastic that someone like 415 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,280 Richard Hoagland is endorsing Judy Wood's research? 416 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,400 Well this might be true if he was presenting it fairly inaccurately. 417 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,200 However, as you will see from details discussed below, which we're not going to get into 418 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,200 unfortunately. 419 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,200 Oh damn it! 420 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,040 Mr. Hoagland made a number of serious errors and omissions in his presentation and had 421 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:51,000 he consulted Dr. Wood or myself or if the organizers had invited Dr. Wood to present 422 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,520 this evidence, these mistakes could have been avoided. 423 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,040 Both myself and especially Dr. Wood worked very very hard to get details correct. 424 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,720 Science and engineering are nothing without details being correct. 425 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,400 Hence we both felt we needed to point out where there are mistakes in his presentation 426 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,840 so we can ensure a true and accurate record of the matters and becoming available to people. 427 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:09,840 So yeah. 428 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:10,840 Oh shit this is awesome. 429 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,240 I didn't want to go too much because- 430 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,600 Is there anything made for that he got wrong? 431 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:15,600 I'm sure there is. 432 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,000 I just wanted to go over the fact that he plagiarized entire just out of nowhere 9-11 433 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,120 presentation and got it wrong. 434 00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:24,680 That is just what I was looking for. 435 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,160 I love that for him. 436 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,120 It's like I love him doing complex math equations that he has no background in doing at all. 437 00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:35,840 And getting belittled, he does get belittled by a math professor on it as well. 438 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,160 He has something called the telephone problem that he shows him or sends him several times 439 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,720 that he refuses to acknowledge by saying like look if you just put several telephone numbers 440 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,520 together you can find crazy anomalies and you brand him a- 441 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,080 Yeah I didn't know that. 442 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,480 That's a crazy fact by the way. 443 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,040 And I'm no mathematician. 444 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:57,000 But does he actually address anyone that says that he's wrong and this is insane? 445 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,840 They're attacking him from a political stance and I actually saw a few people on the podcast 446 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:02,840 side listening. 447 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:03,840 He's not going to get it. 448 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:04,840 He's above that. 449 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,240 Well and people on the other side don't really want to debate him because he is so long-winded 450 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,840 and he does what's called a gish gallop where he unloads so much information on you that 451 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,440 you can't actually address every single one and it looks like he wins the argument. 452 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,480 So it's not even really worth it. 453 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,640 And I guess that's where he's gotten where he is but this is hilarious. 454 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,160 This is all things that he has no expertise in except making shit up and bullshitting 455 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,680 so really he does have expertise in it. 456 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,080 I don't know if you knew this. 457 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,680 I found this out as I was researching this episode. 458 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,920 It appears he got banned from coast to coast for a while. 459 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,680 Would that be why Bob Dylan was doing his- 460 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,080 Robert Zimmerman yeah because he wasn't the science advisor anymore. 461 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,080 And so- 462 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,080 Do I remember that? 463 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,040 I was looking into it and I was like wow that's weird. 464 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,480 Here's a gap from 2015 to 2022. 465 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:53,480 He's back on. 466 00:28:53,480 --> 00:29:00,680 I will say coast to coast is famous for picking people off and if they don't want the publicity 467 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,280 about it they will not address it at all. 468 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:04,840 They will just silently do it. 469 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,840 There's other people however that George Norrie will not shut up about why he won't have 470 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,280 them back but some of them they'll secretly do it under the radar. 471 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,280 Could you find anything? 472 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,320 Yeah part of it is if they're a big enough deal they don't want to piss people off. 473 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,920 So I did find out the reason apparently he really belittled George Norrie a lot in the 474 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,240 conversations or at least George Norrie felt belittled. 475 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,920 And in the last episode actually because it was when New Horizon was on its way to go 476 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:30,920 see Pluto. 477 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:37,120 Richie C was actually set to host an episode of coast to coast as it was flying by Pluto 478 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,800 and talking about everything that we would be unpacking with it. 479 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,680 But before that happened he got banned and I found this and it was oh what was the website? 480 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:45,680 Can't remember. 481 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:46,680 But this is great. 482 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,120 George Norrie's attitude on this episode, the last episode they're on, ran rampant 483 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,560 from worship to fury. 484 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,840 At one point he said, Richard you're amazing Richard everything you say comes true in the 485 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:57,840 end. 486 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,680 But near the end of their conversation when talk turned to plans for Hoagland to guest 487 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,480 host in July on the occasion of the Pluto Encanter it got a little ugly. 488 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:11,040 Hoagland tried to sandbag Norrie on the air by arguing for a five hour extended show. 489 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,720 This was obviously something that had already been discussed and rejected. 490 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,440 So Norrie shut it down in no uncertain terms. 491 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,400 I tried to find this episode I could not. 492 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,040 Damn it that was my next question. 493 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:29,000 If anybody was looking for it it is the June 19th, 2015 episode of coast to coast AM. 494 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,560 June 19th, 2015. 495 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,440 I would love to have that to put that right here. 496 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,280 And after that there's a seven year hiatus and it sounds fantastically hilarious. 497 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,360 And that's that thing he has that ego and it pisses some people off and it gets them 498 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,720 to where he is because he also sounds like he knows everything. 499 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,120 And George Norrie doesn't like to ruffle any feathers. 500 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,000 No I'm surprised that he actually said sternly no we're not doing that. 501 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,160 Yeah and that's actually hilarious. 502 00:30:54,160 --> 00:31:00,120 And then he didn't end up hosting that episode despite the fact he was trying to pump it up. 503 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,480 I love it. 504 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,520 There's one more thing I wanted to address. 505 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,520 There is the Abidos Helicopter or the Abidos Hieroglyph. 506 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,280 You would know the one I'm talking about Chelsea it's a hieroglyph that they say looks like 507 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,280 a helicopter. 508 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,680 It's on like every ancient aliens episode. 509 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:15,680 Okay. 510 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,800 Richard says he's the one who discovered it or at least thought that it looked like a 511 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:19,800 helicopter. 512 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,440 Okay that's what he says. 513 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,000 Yeah he says he's the one who first proposed that it looks like a helicopter. 514 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,920 There are many people who say like no you're full of shit on that one. 515 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,240 Yeah yeah I'm gonna go with yes because. 516 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,040 I just want to conclude that one passingly because that's one people might actually recognize 517 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:35,040 as well. 518 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,040 Also people have advice. 519 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,920 You can also look at things. 520 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,320 So what has Richie C. been up to? 521 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:45,000 He can be found collecting evidence of advanced law civilizations anywhere anyone ever has 522 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,240 taken a picture. 523 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,240 You can hear all about it as well as a play by play of an old man struggling with technology 524 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,480 on his podcast the other side of midnight. 525 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,040 That sounds awful. 526 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:01,600 Honestly his most recent episode includes like him trying to figure around his computer. 527 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,360 It's hilarious. 528 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:04,360 What's the opening like? 529 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,880 Is there like catchy music or anything? 530 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,640 I can't remember it's not catchy. 531 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,400 Oh damn it if it's not memorable. 532 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,840 He believes the most recent we talked about this in our year end update the Artemis shuttle 533 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,080 tests found evidence of domes on the moon as well as launch time and times out of communication 534 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,080 while on the far side of the moon were picked to make this launch an occult ceremony. 535 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,160 Yeah I thought about that that was my idea. 536 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,480 Okay he has stated the original Star Wars trilogy are a true story of this previous 537 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,800 civilization that he's uncovering evidence of. 538 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,640 He has said that there is a city on Ceres the dwarf planet in the asteroid belt that has 539 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,480 one one millionth the gravity of earth. 540 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,320 Okay I mean the odd said he's right is probably some odd you know. 541 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,640 He also has said that NASA found a quote C-3PO head on the moon at some point. 542 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,680 Pluto is a vast library left behind by this advanced civilization. 543 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,020 There's a 13 kilometer tall constructed wall around Saturn's moon Yapidus. 544 00:33:00,020 --> 00:33:05,600 There is a literal death star orbiting Saturn as the moon Mimus or Mimus and he is also a 545 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,000 big proponent of an ancient astronaut hypothesis as conforming to his views of the whole solar 546 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,000 system. 547 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:16,280 And then that story that I alluded to earlier about him being in jail for a period of time. 548 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:21,360 This comes from the emoluments of Mars it's a blog from April of 2020 I believe. 549 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,520 Jose Calavito who does for CEDO history what I do for pseudoscience evidently tortured himself 550 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,320 by listening to the whole three hours of last Sunday's other side of midnight Richard Hogan 551 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,240 podcast on blog talk radio. 552 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,080 Calavito made his review into yesterday's blog and I enjoyed his digs at pseudo historian 553 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,080 Scott Walton. 554 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,960 Hogan's Sunday night guest and one of Calavito's perennial punching bags. 555 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,200 I enjoyed reading that Hogan called the Utah monolith now disappeared a quote hyper dimensional 556 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,200 tetrahedron. 557 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,040 Do you remember those when like those monoliths were showing up in places in like early 2020? 558 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,040 Yes, yes. 559 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,480 They were hyper dimensional tetrahedrons so you know that torsion field. 560 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,080 They're meant to gather free energy. 561 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,080 Is that the thing he dropped on the ground? 562 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,240 Yeah, that's apparently that's what they were. 563 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,280 And then after that you post this here's another little secret about monuments. 564 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:14,380 This is from likely Richard Grossman who's posting under the name Hogan Hogan who published 565 00:34:14,380 --> 00:34:16,400 his book monuments of Mars 19. 566 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,000 Here's another little secret about monuments. 567 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,080 The only way the damn thing ever got written was that Hogan went to prison for one of his 568 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,920 inexplicable and weird scans. 569 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,080 Bracket, ostensibly something about a stolen rental car and a New York planetarium credit 570 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,360 card and whether it really happened or not as reported whether it was really a scam or 571 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,200 not and whether he was really guilty or sentenced fairly or not. 572 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,680 In the end he was incarcerated over a New York state warrant that he chose to flee to 573 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,040 the Golden State, California rather than defend in state. 574 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,720 He was apprehended in Berkeley and was stopped for having a cardboard rear license plate 575 00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:50,280 refused to plea bargain. 576 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,840 So got housed in LA County jail for over a year. 577 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,400 Clearly my version of the story is cobbled out of hearsay from a variety of semi reliable 578 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,280 sources but it roughly tracks with some of the events that actually happened and he was 579 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:03,280 in jail. 580 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,840 That's where I addressed my mail to him regarding the book and he didn't write much of the book. 581 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,400 Just I had to add that story. 582 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,400 Thank you for that. 583 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:11,560 You did have to get out of it. 584 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:17,320 His filmography includes E.T. Among Us presents Alaska's secret pyramid in the worldwide alien 585 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:24,080 archaeology UFO diaries the Chris Gether Show and E.T.s Among Us UFO witnesses and whistleblowers 586 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:29,040 and I wanted to end this off with a few Reddit posts that I found that are just fantastic. 587 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,640 They were from the coast to coast subreddit. 588 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:37,200 I especially love that they call George Norrie the putts or Mr. Putts like that. 589 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,800 Oh yeah the coast to coast AM Reddit is really good actually I enjoyed it. 590 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,240 Anybody that addresses him as Norrie or ask why they do that or what people have wrong 591 00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:47,240 with it. 592 00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:50,520 I immediately delete it because they get shit on so much. 593 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,000 I love this one it's from UFO girl 1904. 594 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,760 It was posted 10 months ago. 595 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,200 I knew Richard as we both hit the conference circuit in the late 90s early 2000. 596 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:00,760 His confidence is narcissistic. 597 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,080 He believes so wholly in his pedigree that no one challenges him. 598 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,080 His lectures were a literal sideshow like in a circus. 599 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,800 After seeing him at many conference parties for insiders I just couldn't handle it. 600 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,440 I stayed as far away as possible. 601 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,180 At one after party he was literally holding his wine glass like some kind of English 602 00:36:16,180 --> 00:36:17,440 aristocrat. 603 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,040 As for his background it has always been questionable. 604 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:25,280 He has his biggest fan and has a way of making you think he's the smartest guy in the room. 605 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,440 The guy wrote the book on the only way to make money in the UFO field back in the day. 606 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,600 I'm surprised he's not doing the ancient aliens circus show which many of my colleagues 607 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:34,600 now do. 608 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,200 You have to understand back in the day making any money off of a lifetime of research was 609 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:39,200 brutal. 610 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,520 Now many of them sell out every show or documentary willing to pay. 611 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,960 I found that hilarious and definitely conforms to the view that I've formed of Richard Hogan. 612 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,360 I do like that one. 613 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,680 And then my personal favorite this comes from a physics forum which I'll put the link in 614 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,760 the episode description so you can go take a look if you want. 615 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,600 One of Hogan's favorite resume items is his stint as science advisor for Walter Cronkite 616 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,280 in the CPS Evening News. 617 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,200 It turns out that today is Hogan's birthday and he was on coast to coast AM via telephone. 618 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,320 Cronkite called in of all people. 619 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,560 Cronkite first said that he wanted George and all of his listeners to know this and 620 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,360 then he referred to Hogan's hocus pocus nonsense. 621 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,000 His babbling about Mars and that he wished he hadn't been led astray by Hogan. 622 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,840 That Hogan was probably qualified for medical treatment under the CPS insurance plan and 623 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,840 he was glad to be away from him. 624 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,600 Cronkite alluded to this all being a joke but in my opinion it was no joke. 625 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,520 He never said once nice things. 626 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,080 I think Cronkite has been waiting for this for a very long time. 627 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,520 His work with Cronkite is one of Hogan's most prized claims. 628 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:40,520 It's hilarious. 629 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,160 And yeah, that's just some of the fun stuff I found online about him. 630 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,920 Very nice curriculum vete if you don't look into it at all. 631 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,920 I think George Santos, the Republican candidate that we talked about in our last episode, 632 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,880 could really learn a thing or two about this. 633 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,840 How to properly lie on a CV. 634 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:57,840 Oh no kidding. 635 00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:58,840 Chelsea, any final thoughts? 636 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,240 I do have some final. 637 00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:05,160 I've learned a lot about, you know, I don't know how he was never on my, like he was on 638 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,680 my radar or being like crazy but not like so crazy. 639 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,840 Like I think part of it is well-caught by he. 640 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,840 I don't think he's ever monetized it in a way that we've noticed because his big thing 641 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,280 is doing lectures and showing up at the conferences and he did a book every now and then. 642 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:20,280 True. 643 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,720 I think that's kind of why I flew into the room. 644 00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:26,520 I think there must be something to what you're saying but he's earned a spot on here. 645 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:27,520 That's for sure. 646 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:28,520 I've learned a lot. 647 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,040 I did not think it would go that way when I first doing this research. 648 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,040 I really did. 649 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:33,200 No, I did not expect this. 650 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,000 That's why I'm saying I learned a lot. 651 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,440 I didn't expect a lot of this. 652 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:41,680 I didn't expect it to be so egotistical, which I guess you have to if you're going to push 653 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,720 yourself to the level that is. 654 00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:44,720 Not a lot to back without. 655 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:50,280 No, especially without doing any of the usual requirements to do the things you want to. 656 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,280 Like he did no. 657 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,920 He's completely fabricated everything out of thin air. 658 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,040 Even his math skills. 659 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,560 And I mean he is constantly doing math. 660 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:58,560 So there's that. 661 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,600 He is the sanest man I've seen. 662 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,600 It's not correct math but he is doing math. 663 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,680 So it checks out. 664 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:06,680 So I'm impressed. 665 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,360 I'm impressed at this level that this episode has served out for us. 666 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:12,360 Yeah. 667 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,480 And there could be a whole other episode on this guy with all the lies that he's talked 668 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:17,480 about. 669 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,680 But I frankly thought I could have fit this onto one episode. 670 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,760 It's probably going to end up being the two episodes. 671 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:22,760 Yeah. 672 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,960 That really spoke for itself about probably how much more he's lied about. 673 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:26,960 Gotta. 674 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:27,960 Especially about math. 675 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,200 You gotta lie about math. 676 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,560 But with that, I hope you guys all enjoyed the two part 100th episode of the show. 677 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:34,880 And I hope you guys enjoyed the episode of Journey to the Fringe. 678 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:40,160 I have been Taylor here with Chelsea talking about UFO assholes as we always wanted. 679 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,920 Live in our best lives. 680 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,000 Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week. 681 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,320 Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe. 682 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:54,600 If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or follow depending 683 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,680 on what venue you are listening to us through. 684 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:03,520 Also please if possible leave a five star review as that really helps us in the algorithms. 685 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:08,680 But should you wish to interact with us, please check us out on your social media of choice. 686 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,400 I bet you we are there. 687 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,880 And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell 688 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:21,800 us that we're wrong and terrible either way, please send us an email at journeytothefringe.com. 689 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:36,200 For now, I'll see you in the next episode.