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I have the opener this week.

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In true Chelsea fashion, this is not going to be a regular opener.

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I wanted to put this into an actual episode, but there wasn't enough to make in an episode,

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but it's like a fun little cryptid-y weird oddity opener that I'm making it just now,

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I've declared.

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So let us just read the article.

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This comes from the Daily Herald.

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May 22, 2011 is a date that most people around the town of Joplin, Missouri remember very

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well.

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It is said that an F5 tornado destroyed 900 homes, killed 161 people and left a landscape

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behind that resembled a foreign landscape on a barren planet.

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What you wouldn't see reported in the mainstream media about this event were the descriptions

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of the butterfly people.

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These stories were mainly told by small children to parents in hospital waiting rooms standing

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in line for water or donated food, and to the Red Cross councillors.

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Multiple children of varied ethnicities and socioeconomic status told eerily similar stories

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of seeing beautiful humanoid creatures with wings hovering over certain children and parents

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in that storm in a protective manner.

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They were described as colourful and pretty, so children called them butterfly people.

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Most of these stories had common elements.

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The tornado hit their home, often parents were praying, the roof was ripped off, children

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saw a butterfly person descended down from the sky and covering them with wings.

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Those particular children usually emerged from the wreckage in good condition.

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Another version states that children saw butterfly people carrying other kids and adults up into

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the heavens, the ones who didn't make it out alive, presumably their souls.

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About one half of the children were counselled at Joplin Child Trauma Treatment Centres,

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set up in the schools afterwards.

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The clinical director, Donniel Robinson, heard these stories first hand from many different

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children.

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Many of these children stated that they somehow knew these butterfly people were there to

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calm them and help keep them safe.

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Really cool little story, it took place a while ago.

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This basically summarizes everything that happened with it.

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Basically there's a tornado, kids saw butterfly people carrying people to safety or up into

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the sky.

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Wouldn't make for a whole episode.

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I'm actually suspecting that this came up in your Mothperson research.

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It didn't actually come up on a Reddit thread.

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Okay.

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Yeah, but I can see why you would think that.

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I also think that the population that is telling us this is a little bias in how the butterfly

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people were helping them in the sense that only the people who survived the tornado will

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believe that the butterfly people were there to protect them, not the people who died.

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So who may have been in fact killed by the butterfly people.

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Okay, this might be a much more alarming article of killer butterfly people.

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Tornadoes are now equipped with killer butterfly people.

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Yes.

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Which is...

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Only target some people.

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They save some kill others.

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Like a remarkably large amount, 161 people.

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And with that, we all have a new fear of tornadoes unloading butterfly people to wreak havoc

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and steal our souls.

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And with that, I think we can get into this episode.

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Yeah, let's do it.

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From the unexplained to the mundane.

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Come join us on a Journey to the Fringe.

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Hello, and welcome to Journey to the Fringe.

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Some may say the most important media ever created by humanity.

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Which is why it's important to look at qualifying words in promotions.

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We are your fringy hype team, Taylor and Chelsea, and today we are here talking about that little

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recurring theme of reincarnation.

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Not recurring with us, just with nature, as it is, if you believe in it.

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It's probably recurring with us.

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Let's lay it out.

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I'm going to look at some of the researchers that have been looking at this.

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I'm going to talk about their process, and then we're going to look at some examples

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that they've looked at around the world.

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I am going to say a few things right off the bat that I think need to be addressed.

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Small cases I could find are reincarnation examples of people reincarnating as people.

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Which is only a small sect of people who believe in reincarnation believe that it's exclusively

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in that way.

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The second part, we're going to be talking about reincarnation.

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There are definitely downsides to groups of people who believe in reincarnation out there.

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I specifically want to make note of the Indian people's belief in the caste system, where

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the lowest group of people are born into that caste because they did bad things in their

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previous life.

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The untouchables are treated absolutely awful because the people who believe in the caste

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system believe that they deserve that awful treatment from what they did in past lives.

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It is absolutely terrible and not something that should be done.

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We are just going to be looking at this as a fun thought and nothing outside of that.

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Do not treat people like shit because you think that they deserve it from what they

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did in past lives.

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I just need to get that out there right off the bat.

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You're not allowed to do your own karma.

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That's up to the universe.

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Just a quick note, I have read Dolores Cannon.

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I do like her.

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She has a lot of books.

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She talks about one of the things she has in her books is about reincarnation.

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She does talk about and have people who go back through regression, I believe it is.

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It's been a lot of years now since I read the convoluted universe and there's many,

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many other books after this.

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She does talk about people reincarnating from animals.

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People who have memories of it.

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Yeah, no.

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That is actually something I'm going to talk.

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Well, I don't really talk about, but I should have touched on.

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We'll talk about it now.

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I am only talking about at this point, non-regressed memories.

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These are ones that children have of their previous life or what they state is their

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previous life.

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Past life regression is a completely different category as well as adult reincarnation memories,

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which is a completely different category that we could talk about at a later date.

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I'm glad we clarified that.

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All we're talking about right now is children who believe they're born and reincarnated

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from somebody else.

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Okay.

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I like these regressions or not regressions.

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These stories.

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These non-regressive stories.

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I love the children's stories.

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I think they're really cool.

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Yeah.

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There are some interesting ones.

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At the end, we're going to talk about some interesting research that's gone on in this

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area as well.

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Nice.

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Without further ado, there have actually been quite a few researchers who have looked into

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the subject.

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I'm going to be focusing on just a select few of them.

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The most important one we're going to be talking about is Ian Stevenson.

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He received his bachelor in science in 1940.

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He then enrolled in McGill Medical School and he completed a four-year program in three

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years and graduated the top of his class in 1943.

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He was a professor at the University of Virginia School of Medicine for 50 years and he was

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a chair of their department of psychiatry from 1957 to 1967, Carlson professor of psychiatry

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from 1967 to 2001 and research professor of psychiatry from 2002 until his death in 2007.

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As a founder and director of the University of Virginia School of Medicine's division

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of perceptual studies, which investigates the paranormal, Stevenson became known for

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his research into cases he considered suggested of reincarnation.

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The idea that emotions, memories, and even physical bodily features can be passed on

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from one incarnation to another.

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In the course of his 40 years doing international field work, he researched 3,000 cases of children

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who claimed to remember past lives.

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His position was that certain phobias, filias, unusual abilities, and illnesses could not

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be fully explained by genetics or the environment.

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He believed that in addition to genetics and the environment, reincarnation might possibly

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provide a third contributing factor.

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Stevenson helped to found the Society for Scientific Exploration in 1982 and was the

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author of around 300 papers and 14 books on reincarnation including probably his most

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prominent book which is called 20 cases suggested for reincarnation written in 1966.

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And I should say right off the bat, I pulled a lot of my research from a website called

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Psy Encyclopedia, PSI Encyclopedia.

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They have absolutely excellent articles.

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It's basically the Wikipedia for the psychic and paranormal phenomena.

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So if you are looking to do more research into this or you find these stories interesting,

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there are so many more to look at that I just like, I couldn't include everything and I

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had to look at just a select group.

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Well of course.

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We're also going to be talking about James Matlock who earned his English Bachelor of

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Arts from Emory University in 1977.

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In 1983, Matlock began postgraduate work in library sciences at the University of Maryland

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concentrating in archives.

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He received his Masters of Library Sciences in 1985 and was offered this job of librarian

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and archivist at the American Society for Psychical Research in New York.

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In 1989, he was commissioned to organize the collection of J.B.

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Ryan's Parapsychology Laboratory at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina.

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For his library science work, Matlock wrote a survey of archival collections and parapsychology,

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which was later published.

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While working as ASPR's librarian and archivist, he began writing papers on the history of

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parapsychology and drawn reincarnation.

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He published the introduction to his inventory of Ryan's Parapsychology Laboratory records

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in 1991.

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Jim B. Tucker was born in Goldsboro, North Carolina on January 1, 1960.

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He graduated Phi Beta Kappa with a Bachelor of Arts degree in psychology in 1982 and completed

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his MD training in 1986, both at the University of Carolina, Chapel Hill.

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He then took a postgraduate training in general psychiatry and child psychiatry at UVA, become

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board certified in both in 1992.

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He stayed in the town of Charlottesville to begin a successful psychiatric practice.

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Currently, Tucker serves at UVA as Bonner Lowry Professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral

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Sciences and Director of DOPS, where he and the DOPS research team continue investigating

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along the same lines as Stevenson, but with an emphasis on American cases.

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He oversees the ongoing computerization of the 2,500 cases recorded by Stevenson and

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other researchers using Stevenson's protocols.

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And last, Carol Bowman's cases.

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She has two books that are important for this, Children's Past Lives and Return from Heaven

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about reincarnation.

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And she has been published in more than 23 languages.

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However, she seems to be like, she would be the one who shows up on daytime TV as the

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expert on this thing.

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Whereas these other people actually seem to be like professors on the subject.

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So I actually give her the least credence, but she just comes up in a few of the cases

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we're going to talk about.

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Yeah, I mean, you could still get legitimate things.

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Oh, you can.

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It's just, I found her the least credible of everybody we're going to be.

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All those investigators.

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Yeah, the other ones seem fairly decorated.

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They have several degrees and they are coming from it with a very systematic point of view.

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After that, I want to give you an overview of what they describe reincarnation to be.

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So reincarnation cases share many common features and patterns.

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The common features include dreams announcing rebirth, birthmarks and other congenital physical

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traits, behavioral traits and past life memories.

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There also may be memories of intermission periods between lives during which the parents

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may be chosen.

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Some children recall being a member of the opposite sex.

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The previous lives generally passed in the same region, ethnic and religious group as

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the present life only occasionally were they in any other country.

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Also most of the recalled lives ended not long before the present life began.

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Stevenson reports a median of only 15 months in a series of 616 child cases, predominantly

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from Asia and the Middle East.

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However, there are cultural differences on some variables, particularly on the length

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of the intermission and the relative frequency of different types of relationships, be it

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their family, acquaintance or strangers that were being reincarnated, between the case

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subject and the person whose life is recalled.

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Several kinds of behavior memories figure in children's reincarnation cases.

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Not infrequently, the children's subjects show the sort of emotional attachment and

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reactions that one would expect from the person whose life they recall.

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Some enact that person's avocation or death in their play.

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They may also display intense fears or phobias concerning people, places or things related

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to the way the previous life ended.

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Erlander Herladsen, who conducted psychological tests on children with past life memories,

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discovered that many who recalled dying violently displayed symptoms of what looked like post-traumatic

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stress disorder, the sort of reaction one might expect from persons who had survived

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the experience.

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Children who recalled dying as adults often act as if they are much older than they are.

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Many children show precocious interest in cigarettes, alcohol or sex, which is the whole

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other thing.

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Yeah.

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Curiously, in reincarnation cases, there may be behavioral differences between twins who

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grow up together, contrary to what many psychologists expect.

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Once they have a case they want to actually look at for reincarnation, this is their process.

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So researchers of past life memories cases usually start out by interviewing the child

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and the child's family.

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They learn about the statements the children have made about a past life.

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They also inquire about any possible connection between the child's family and the deceased

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individual, whether that person has been identified and whether the child has had any opportunity

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to learn about the previous life.

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In cases that include birthmarks or birth defects, additional work is required.

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The child is examined and the marks or defects are photographed.

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The family is asked when they were first noticed, whether there are other family members with

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similar ones and whether the mother and fetus were exposed to known causes of defects.

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The researchers then interview the deceased individual's family.

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They judge how well the child's statements match the previous life and whether the family

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knows of any access the child might have had to the material regarding the deceased person.

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In the cases with birthmarks and birth defects, they attempt to determine with as much precision

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as they can what wounds the previous person suffered in order to assess how well they

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correspond to the child's marks or defects.

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Researchers obtain autopsy records when possible, though often there are unavailable or nonexistent.

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Stevenson reported that he had obtained an autopsy report in 49 out of 210 cases.

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When no report is available, researchers interview first-hand eyewitnesses who saw the wounds

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on the body of the deceased.

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So that's just a little overview of everything.

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Stevenson did a lot of work in non-Western countries, specifically India, Bangladesh,

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Sri Lanka.

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I'm trying to keep it as much in the Western world as I can.

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So we are going to talk about a few of Stevenson's cases, but for the most part, it's going to

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be other cases that are going to come up.

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He's also researching it in countries that that's predominantly their belief.

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Yeah, that comes up a lot in their culture.

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Not that it doesn't come up here, as I'm sure you'll tell us, like you said, but...

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One thing I found interesting that did come up, it is so common in their culture that

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reincarnation does happen, that you might actually mark a body with ash or ink so that

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it forms a birthmark or a mark on a baby so that you know who they're reincarnating as,

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which is super weird.

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That is super weird, but I mean, if that's such a part of your belief system, you've

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got to be willing to try anything.

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We just hope they're not mangling bodies.

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We're going to cut off his arm so that the body reincarnates and doesn't have its arm.

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Simple as that.

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But with that bit of overview, we're going to go over some cases, a lot of them really

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short.

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Carol Bowman investigated this return of a woman as her great-granddaughter seven years

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after her death.

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Oh, in the family.

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Yes, it is the case of Dee Klepper.

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Dee's mother and her grandmother had a contentious relationship.

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After her grandmother's death, Dee's mother dreamed several times of her grandmother,

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but each time the woman was going away from her.

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Then when she became pregnant with Dee, she began to dream of the woman coming towards

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her.

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When she was about seven months into her pregnancy, she started to sense her presence.

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She considered the possibility of reincarnation, but had read that there was invariably a lengthy

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period between lives and so dismissed it.

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When she first held Dee, she was overwhelmed with a feeling of familiarity.

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Still, reincarnation was so far from her expectation that she did not credit the sensation for

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long.

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But when Dee reached two years of age, she began to behave more and more like her great-grandmother

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and to recognize places and people her great-grandmother had known.

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When a friend gave her three cats, she named them Jenny, Layla, and Lester, which her mother

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later found on a family genealogy.

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Jenny Layla was Dee's great-grandmother's sister and Lester was her brother.

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At this point, Dee's mother could no longer doubt that Dee was her great-grandmother come

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back.

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That's the story.

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00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,760
And that's why I give Carol Bowman kind of the least credit of all of the people that

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we were talking about.

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00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:14,760
Oh, that was a Carol Bowman story?

290
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,640
Yeah, that's a Carol Bowman story.

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00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,840
So that's a- I could see why you said that about her.

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00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,280
And it relies on a very odd coincidence, but a coincidence nonetheless.

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00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,280
Yes.

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That's what I was going to say.

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00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:32,240
It doesn't seem like something you can scientifically, like it's just a neat little story.

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00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,840
This next case is known as Bobby Hodges and was independently investigated by both Jim

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00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,080
Tucker and Carol Bowman.

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Bobby's first word was cousin.

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He talked frequently about wanting to live with his cousins.

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The significance of this began to emerge when he was four years old.

301
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One night after his bath, he asked his mother if she remembered when he and his younger

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brother Donald had been in her tummy together.

303
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,400
She replied that they had not been in her tummy together, but he insisted that they

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had, although they had not been born.

305
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,880
Gradually it became clear that he was referring to a miscarriage his aunt had suffered when

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she was carrying twins seven years before his birth.

307
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Oh, creepy.

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00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,960
Bobby said that he had tried to return to his aunt, but found her womb already occupied.

309
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,480
Indeed, she had become pregnant shortly after the miscarriage with one of Bobby's cousins.

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00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,840
Bobby accused Donald of causing the miscarriage and demanded to know why, at which Donald

311
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,800
took his dummy out of his mouth and yelled, I wanted daddy.

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00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,760
Bobby also correctly described his parents' wedding, which had occurred while his mother

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was pregnant with him.

314
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,900
He wanted to know why he had been born by cesarean section.

315
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:38,840
His mother explained that this was because he had been in a face up occipital posterior

316
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position.

317
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,800
Had he turned over, he could have been born normally.

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00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,560
Oh, I didn't know that said Bobby.

319
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,920
I would have turned over, but I thought they were trying to push me back in.

320
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,400
Like I just found that one so weird.

321
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:56,120
That one is super creepy and hilarious.

322
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,120
And he's fighting with his cousin.

323
00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:03,120
He wanted to be born into that family.

324
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:04,720
I really like that story.

325
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:05,720
That's good.

326
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:06,720
I want his dad.

327
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,880
That is super creepy, but I like that.

328
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,760
That's a, I like that one.

329
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,480
This next one is a child by the name of Chad Luke, and it was independently investigated

330
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,200
by Carol Bowman and then Jim Tucker and Ian Stevenson together investigated this one.

331
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,440
James had been in good health until at 18 months, his cancer took hold.

332
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,680
He began to have trouble walking and fell fracturing his tibia and afterwards walked

333
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:31,680
with a limp.

334
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:36,740
The neuroblastoma was confirmed by an autopsy taken from a swelling in his scalp above his

335
00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:37,740
right ear.

336
00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:41,920
His left eye protruded and was thought to have bled slightly because he was having trouble

337
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:42,920
eating.

338
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,920
Doctors placed an intravenous tube in his throat, leaving a linear scar across the right

339
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:47,920
side of his neck.

340
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,120
By the time of his death, seven months later, James was blind in his left eye and his facial

341
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:53,120
features were distorted.

342
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:54,720
This is the original life.

343
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I had a feeling.

344
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,440
I feel like it's going to come as a birth defect or birthmark.

345
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,940
Chad was born blind in his left eye with his, and his face was asymmetrical.

346
00:19:03,940 --> 00:19:07,560
He had a linear birthmark resembling a surgical scar across his neck.

347
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,300
He also had a cyst on the right side of his head behind his ear in the place the biopsy

348
00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:13,920
had been performed on James.

349
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,320
When Chad began to walk, it was with a limp, although no physical reason could be found

350
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:19,320
for it.

351
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,260
Starting when he was about four and a half years old, he related many memories of James.

352
00:19:23,260 --> 00:19:27,820
He gave an accurate description of the flat in which he had lived as James and wanted

353
00:19:27,820 --> 00:19:30,120
to return there to play with James' toys.

354
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:33,740
He also accurately described the biopsy on James' scalp and recalled not being able

355
00:19:33,740 --> 00:19:35,120
to drink without vomiting.

356
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,680
He identified a picture of James as one as himself.

357
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,520
His mother and others who knew James noticed that Chad had a personality very similar to

358
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:43,520
James'.

359
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,640
This is one of Bowman's advice to acknowledge this link to James, after which Chad developed

360
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,440
some sight in his left eye.

361
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,800
At age six, he began to talk less about his memories of James.

362
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:53,800
This is James Leninger.

363
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:58,180
James Leninger is the subject of what may be the most famous child reincarnation case.

364
00:19:58,180 --> 00:20:03,360
His parents documented his memories and their successful efforts to verify them in a book,

365
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:04,360
Soul Survivor.

366
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:08,920
The case was investigated by Jim Tucker and the story features in several documentaries,

367
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,760
no doubt in part because James' memories were verified and the case has received much

368
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,800
attention from skeptics, most recently philosopher Michael Sudiff.

369
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,440
When he was 22 months old, James' father Bruce took him to an aircraft museum in Houston,

370
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:23,800
Texas, where they resided.

371
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,440
Not long after, James corrected his mother about the nature of an appendage on the bottom

372
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:28,440
of a toy airplane.

373
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,320
She remarked that it was a bomb, but he said no, it was a drop tank, a drop tank being

374
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,000
an external fuel tank.

375
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,080
Two months later, he began to have nightmares during which he would cry.

376
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,160
Plane on fire, little man can't get out.

377
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:45,040
Gradually, he began to talk about his memories of dying when his corsair came under fire.

378
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,800
He said he had flown off a boat named Natoma.

379
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,480
He drew pictures of boats and planes, signing them as James 3.

380
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:52,480
He named G.I.

381
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,960
Joe dolls Billy, Walter and Leon because that's who met me when I got to heaven.

382
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,040
James was so insistent with his apparent memories, Bruce said about their verification.

383
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,640
To his surprise, he was able to trace them to a flyer named James Huston Jr. who had

384
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,600
died when his plane flown off the Natoma Bay during World War II had been downed by Japanese

385
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,880
fire off the island of Iwo Jima.

386
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:17,520
Three squadron mates who had pre-deceased Huston were named Leon Connor, Walter Devlin

387
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:18,880
and Billy Peeler.

388
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,200
The step at goal interpretation starts with suggestions that James' memories were prompted

389
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,680
by a corsair he saw at the flight museum.

390
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,440
However, there was no corsair on display at the time of James' and Bruce's visit.

391
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,320
The museum's corsair had been lost in an air show six months prior to the visit and

392
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:34,800
replaced only after it.

393
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,880
As Tucker learned when he rang the museum, the plane in which Huston died actually was

394
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,120
not a corsair, although Huston had flown corsairs in training.

395
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:45,720
This sort of confusion sometimes appears in past life memories according to James Matlock.

396
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,640
In any event, the error cannot be attributed to a plane he did not see, nor would the museum

397
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,840
visit account for the many details James related correctly such as his past life name, the

398
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,600
name of the aircraft carrier and the names of Huston's squadron mates.

399
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,040
It is kind of creepy how accurate that one is.

400
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,240
I was just going to comment, it is really creepy how accurate it is because we look

401
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:12,400
in the Satanic Panic episode and kids were like, yeah, the daycare teacher was definitely

402
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,400
flying.

403
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,440
Flying, he flushed us down the toilet, down to the tunnels.

404
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:23,240
And then there's this kid giving very specific memories about aircraft and names.

405
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,960
These dolls are going to be named these guys because that's who I met in heaven.

406
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,160
There's definitely something to it and I've heard this story before, it's a very famous

407
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,920
reincarnation, probably one of the most famous ones.

408
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,680
Next is the case of Christian Haupt.

409
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:41,280
Christian Haupt may have been the baseball player Lou Gehrig, who's disease is named.

410
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,200
But like all claims to have been famous people, this identification is controversial.

411
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,960
Christian's mother, Kathy Byrd, told his story first in an article for her local newspaper

412
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:50,960
then in a book.

413
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:56,040
But reincarnation researcher KM Wirstein has pointed out discrepancies in these accounts.

414
00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,240
Jim Tucker visited the family and briefly interviewed Christian, but was not impressed

415
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,160
enough to carry out a full investigation.

416
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,520
Nonetheless, the case includes behavioral features along with memories that suggest

417
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:11,880
that if Christian was not Lou Gehrig, who was another major baseball player who knew

418
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,040
Gehrig well and the Gehrig identification cannot be ruled out conclusively.

419
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,360
If it is valid, the intermission would be 67 years between lives.

420
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:22,880
Without doubt, Christian was a prodigy at baseball.

421
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,440
He loved the sport and from an early age had an incessant drive to practice his skills.

422
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,720
At the age of two, he was given a cameo role in Adam Sandler's movie, That's My Boy.

423
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:32,960
No idea what movie that is.

424
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:33,960
Never heard of it.

425
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,800
I've never heard of it too, which is strange.

426
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,720
In September 2012, three weeks after his fourth birthday, he had the honor of throwing out

427
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,980
the ceremonial pitch at the LA Dodgers game on a nightly basis.

428
00:23:44,980 --> 00:23:48,980
He shared with his family his memories of having been a tall baseball player.

429
00:23:48,980 --> 00:23:52,840
He said he had played for the New York Yankees, which is where Gehrig played, and that his

430
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,880
favorite position was first base, which is what Lou Gehrig played.

431
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,880
He said that he traveled between cities on trains and stayed in hotels.

432
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,080
He expressed a long disdain for Babe Ruth, another famous Yankee player with whom Gehrig

433
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,080
did not get along.

434
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,200
However, none of the details are exclusive to Lou Gehrig.

435
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,160
Apparently a lot of people didn't like Babe Ruth.

436
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,960
They would apply to other baseball players as well.

437
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,380
The principal controversy is over whether Christian self-identified as Gehrig or whether

438
00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:19,920
the identification was imposed by his mother.

439
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,960
In her book, Kathy Bird says that when she showed him a team picture with Gehrig in it,

440
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,920
he picked out Gehrig and said, that's me.

441
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,320
But she doesn't mention that in her earlier newspaper article.

442
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,880
Instead, she says that Christian responded to a picture of Gehrig and Ruth with comments

443
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:34,880
disparaging Ruth.

444
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,400
In fact, it would appear that on that occasion, he avoided identifying Gehrig as himself.

445
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,740
Christian said that Kathy was the reincarnation of his mother.

446
00:24:42,740 --> 00:24:47,740
If that is so, then a past life connection would convert this from a case with a stranger

447
00:24:47,740 --> 00:24:51,040
relationship to one with a family relationship.

448
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,760
This would be true if he were recalling the life of another player, however, and so provides

449
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,920
no support for the Gehrig identification.

450
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,720
I do like that these investigators who are actually trying to do the work in this are

451
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,520
keeping their investigation work at the highest echelon.

452
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:05,520
I mean, you got it.

453
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:06,520
Yeah, exactly.

454
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:07,520
You got to take it serious.

455
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,520
Yeah.

456
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,680
You want your work to be taken seriously, you have to use, you know, good thing, good

457
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:14,680
stuff.

458
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,880
This is a 1917 case out of Cuba.

459
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,480
Eduardo Esplugas Cabrera.

460
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,440
It's a nice name.

461
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,080
It is a hard name to say.

462
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,080
That is for sure.

463
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,080
Esplugas.

464
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,080
Esplugas.

465
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,840
I like the splugas in it.

466
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,600
It was first reported in a Puerto Rican paper, but concerned a Spanish family residing in

467
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:32,600
Cuba.

468
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,880
Their four year old son claimed to remember having lived before at a certain address elsewhere

469
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:37,880
in Havana.

470
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,320
He gave the name of his parent and two brothers.

471
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,240
His own name had been Pancho, he said.

472
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,240
He used to purchase medicine at an American chemist not far from his house.

473
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:51,040
Eduardo described his memories in such detail as parents decided to test him by taking him

474
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,280
to the address he cited.

475
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,600
He appeared to recognize the building and went in.

476
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,760
They'd returned Crestfallen to his family.

477
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,640
The flat, he recalled, was now occupied by people he did not recognize.

478
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,960
Upon inquiry, his father learned that a family of the complexion and name given by Eduardo

479
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,400
had resided there until 1903, when their youngest son Pancho had died.

480
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,720
An American drug shop still stood nearby at the time.

481
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,680
And here's the story of Steven Stein.

482
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,000
Shortly before she became pregnant with Steven, his mother dreamed about a boy with Latino

483
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,720
features very different from her family's American stock.

484
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,880
During her pregnancy, she had a craving for hot, spicy foods, particularly traditional

485
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,320
Mexican dishes.

486
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,680
Steven had the appearance of the boy in his mother's dreams and, as it turned out, was

487
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,200
fond of Mexican cuisine.

488
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,340
On his first visit to a Mexican restaurant, he stood for a long period before a map that

489
00:26:38,340 --> 00:26:42,240
decorated the back wall, then pointed to a town and said that that was where he was from.

490
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,500
He made no more mention of his previous lives, though, until he watched a television documentary

491
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:52,280
about the Siege of Alamo, in which the Mexican army had defeated American settlers in 1836.

492
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,620
He pointed to a spot in front of the compound as the spot where he had been shot and killed.

493
00:26:56,620 --> 00:27:00,700
Around this time, he began to experience chronic retinal migraines.

494
00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:05,160
At 30, Steven had a drop seizure and lost all motor function in the lower part of his

495
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,640
body for several hours.

496
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,880
He's the only member of his family to suffer from retinal migraines.

497
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,220
The only one with poor vision and the only one to have suffered seizures.

498
00:27:13,220 --> 00:27:17,200
If the Mexican soldier was shot in the head, this might be the origin of Steven's symptoms,

499
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,340
for which no physical cause had been found.

500
00:27:19,340 --> 00:27:23,840
With that one, there was no actual description of how that previous life ended, so it can't

501
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,880
actually be confirmed that that's where that came from.

502
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,440
I was going to ask, are we sure that Steven has the same father as the rest of the family,

503
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,380
if he looks so different?

504
00:27:32,380 --> 00:27:35,080
Also that it was a super big case, yeah.

505
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,960
This one is super in detail.

506
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,440
This is the one I said to go deep in detail on.

507
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,040
It's going to be long and is the story of Kumkum.

508
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,040
Kumkum Verma.

509
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,580
Where's the story coming from?

510
00:27:44,580 --> 00:27:45,580
This is in India.

511
00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:46,580
Thanks, okay.

512
00:27:46,580 --> 00:27:52,440
Kumkum Verma was born in 1955, the third child of BK Verma and his wife Subhadra.

513
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,760
They lived in Bahera, a village in Northern Bihar near the city of Darbhanga.

514
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,600
Aged three and a half, Kumkum began speaking of a previous life in a family of blacksmiths

515
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,120
in Urdu Bazar.

516
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:06,220
Gradually, other details emerged.

517
00:28:06,220 --> 00:28:08,800
She had a son named Misri Lal.

518
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,680
Also a grandson, Gauri Shankar.

519
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,040
She said that she had died because of an altercation poisoned by a daughter-in-law.

520
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,840
She has to be called Sundari, which in Matheli, the local dialect of Bihari means beautiful.

521
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,080
Later it was realized that she was trying to say Sundari.

522
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,300
Kumkum's parents did not encourage her to talk of a previous life and ignored her request

523
00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:30,220
to be taken to Urdu Bazar.

524
00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:34,360
They were alarmed at the strength of her feelings and feared the excitement of tracing the former

525
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:36,000
family would make her ill.

526
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,440
However, they did not try to suppress her talk.

527
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,000
An aunt took an interest and made written notes of many of these details when Kumkum

528
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,700
was about three and a half years old.

529
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:48,640
This was before an attempt at verification took place a few months later when she was

530
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:49,640
four.

531
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,200
Kumkum's father mentioned her statement to a friend, Harish Chandra Mishra, a senior

532
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,480
official in the estate of Maharaja of Darbhanga.

533
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:02,360
Harish Chandra Mishra sent an employee to try to find a blacksmith named Gauri Shankar.

534
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:07,240
The family was successfully traced and Gauri Shankar's father, Misri Lal, confirmed that

535
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,200
Kumkum's statements and behavior accurately conformed to facts in the life of his mother

536
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,200
Sundari.

537
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:18,180
Kumkum's parents would not allow Misri Lal to meet the child nor let her visit family

538
00:29:18,180 --> 00:29:19,180
in Urdu Bazar.

539
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:22,960
However, her father went to Urdu Bazar once to meet members of the previous family and

540
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,200
photograph people and objects he thought she might recognize.

541
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:31,060
In 1961, a journalist visited both families and wrote a detailed report of interviews

542
00:29:31,060 --> 00:29:32,320
that he carried out with them.

543
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:37,680
Two years later, P. Pal, an Indian investigator and field assistant of Ian Stevenson, conducted

544
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,280
his own interview and was furnished abstracts from Kumkum's aunt's notebook, although

545
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,640
the notebook itself was later lost when the aunt loaned it to a friend who did not return

546
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,640
it.

547
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,320
I don't like that part of the story, but nonetheless, apparently it is documented.

548
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,040
Most documented as it is.

549
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,600
Steven Sim himself became involved in the case in 1964 when he re-interviewed Kumkum's

550
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,960
parents and the aunt who had written down Kumkum's recollections.

551
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,120
Four interviews were carried out by Stevenson's team in 1965 and 1966.

552
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,480
Stevenson returned in 1969 and carried out additional interviews with all main informants.

553
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,880
And to note, Kumkum by this time had lost nearly all the memories of the previous life.

554
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,560
Stevenson's notes about the case in the first volume of this case of reincarnations, Type

555
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,480
Series, published in 1975.

556
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,320
Darbhanga is a large city near India's northern border with Nepal.

557
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,280
Sundari's family lived in the Urdu Bazar quarter of the city.

558
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:34,080
Being members of a low class of small businesses and artisans, their past would not have crossed

559
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:39,480
with those of educated Vermaas who lived in Bahira, a large village in the same district,

560
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,720
about 40 kilometers from Darbhanga.

561
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,760
The Vermaas farmed land and Kumkum's father also practiced as a homeopathic physician

562
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:47,760
and wrote books.

563
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,880
Sundari's family, by contrast, had little or no formal education.

564
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,200
Dr. Verma said he had never been into Urdu Bazar.

565
00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,840
The friend in Darbhanga who helped trace the family did not know much about Urdu Bazar

566
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,360
and had not heard of Misri Lal mystery.

567
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:08,720
Dr. Verma said he did not discover any friend he and the other family had in common.

568
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:15,320
Misri Lal said he never went to Bahira until doing business there in 1968 and did not visit

569
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:16,320
the Vermaas.

570
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,260
His son Gauri Shankar said he first went there in 1959 to visit Kumkum after hearing that

571
00:31:21,260 --> 00:31:24,040
she was talking about the life of his grandmother.

572
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,240
So pregnancy experiences in this one.

573
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,080
Kumkum's mother had some unusual experiences while she was pregnant with Kumkum.

574
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:35,400
She liked milk, fruit, and salty food more than was common for her or what she had experienced

575
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,680
during pregnancies with her other five children.

576
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,480
After Kumkum was born, she was especially fond of those foods.

577
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:48,320
Super interesting fact on the last two, I think, that the mothers took on the cravings

578
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,960
of what the people had in their past lives.

579
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:52,960
Exactly.

580
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:53,960
Yeah.

581
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,880
And that other one, there wasn't enough information about the father to actually know anything

582
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:58,880
about that.

583
00:31:58,880 --> 00:31:59,880
Yeah.

584
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:00,880
But in this one.

585
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,760
Still an interesting point that has been made a couple of times now.

586
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,760
If, I mean, once is interesting enough if it's a legitimate case, but it's been twice.

587
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,280
Just like a super strange kind of thing because it's not them.

588
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:13,280
Exactly.

589
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,760
It seems to be coming through that it's so strong and maybe that's why the kids still

590
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,000
remember memories.

591
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,800
Maybe it's just really strong with them.

592
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,920
I also find that interesting that in the interviews, the mother found it important to say this.

593
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,200
Like, this was different about this birth and I had five other children.

594
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,200
That's true.

595
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,640
I mean, I guess I would find it weird if I was like, oh, I like crave this one thing

596
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,080
that I never craved and then my kid loved it.

597
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,640
I actually, I don't know if I'd bring it up, but they do.

598
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:37,640
So here we are talking.

599
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:38,640
Yeah, I know.

600
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:39,640
Exactly.

601
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:45,600
Sundari, it turned out, also was specifically fond of salty foods, though she was not noted

602
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,280
for liking milk or fruit.

603
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,840
So weird cravings that didn't necessarily correspond during her pregnancy.

604
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,260
Kumkum's mother also dreamed of a girl surrounded by snakes.

605
00:32:55,260 --> 00:32:58,960
She had no dreams involving snakes with her other children.

606
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,800
Given that Sundari had a pet snake, this dream qualifies as an announcing dream, a dream

607
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,760
which heralds a reincarnation.

608
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:10,960
Physical traits at her birth, Kumkum was noticed to have marks on the loaves of her ears in

609
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,440
the place where earrings would have been attached.

610
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,360
These markings correspond to Sundari's pierced ears.

611
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,960
Kumkum's complexion was unusually fair for her family.

612
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,280
As a child, she was slim and taller than other girls her age.

613
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,880
Sundari had been tall, slim and fair in complexion.

614
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,960
Of 15 statements included in the excerpts from Kumkum's aunt's notebook, how it was

615
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,680
provided, all proved to be true or partially true of Sundari.

616
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,040
These 15 statements are only part of Kumkum's memories recorded by investigators, however.

617
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,680
Stevenson's list of 56 different statements attributed to Kumkum, who was never taken

618
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,120
to Dambala and had no contact with any member of the Sundari family, except for the brief

619
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,240
encounter with Sundari's grandson, Gauri Shankar, when he visited Bihara.

620
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,520
Kumkum's statements that were verified as true for the life of Sundari include the following.

621
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:02,360
My house was built of brick and had tiles, unusual as people usually lived in houses

622
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:08,400
of clay or mud, and the house was on the road with a guava tree on the side and plum, jelabi

623
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,040
and date trees around the other side.

624
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,800
These details were all verified.

625
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,620
There was a pond outside the house that I helped to create, having paid the workers

626
00:34:16,620 --> 00:34:17,680
who dug it out.

627
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,280
The presence of a pond was not unusual, however Sundari's son and wife confirmed that Sundari

628
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,240
had sometimes paid the laborers.

629
00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:26,080
There was a temple of Shiva near the house.

630
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:27,880
This was derrotied by Stevenson.

631
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,720
There was a cinema near the house where I went with the daughter-in-law.

632
00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:32,960
The cinema was 400 meters from the house.

633
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,760
Sundari went there, often to see religious themed dramas.

634
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,240
There was a safe at my house on the northern side of the house.

635
00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:43,640
The safe was in the room where Sundari slept, which was on the northern side of the house.

636
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,380
My daughter-in-law had a gold chain.

637
00:34:45,380 --> 00:34:50,040
It's probably referring to one of the ornaments Sundari's owned and lent to her daughter-in-law.

638
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:55,160
Kumkum compared it to her mother's gold chain and said her chain was better, Sundari's

639
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,160
chain.

640
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:57,160
Kind of a dick move by a kid.

641
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:58,160
Yeah.

642
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,160
I had a sword hanging near my bed.

643
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,600
Sundari had a sword on her bedroom wall, which would have been unusual for most Indians,

644
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,480
although less so for a blacksmith.

645
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:11,560
Kumkun said to never have seen or heard of a sword before making this statement.

646
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,480
A snake stayed near the iron safe.

647
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,920
It had a hood and the end of its tail was missing.

648
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,320
Sundari had kept a black kofra as a pet in her room and it was still living in 1959.

649
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,880
I fed the snake milk and zala.

650
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,800
The meaning of zala could not be determined, but Sundari had fed it milk and cooked rice.

651
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,360
A window of her home had iron bars.

652
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,360
Misery-law said that her mother's bedroom had iron bars.

653
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,320
And I'm going to skip through these just because there's a lot, but those are all, she made

654
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,900
a ton of statements that kind of are in that light.

655
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:44,120
Most kind of, they all are confirmed to be true.

656
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,280
And these were all made before they'd made contact with the family.

657
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,480
She also had behaviors that match up very well with this family.

658
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,280
Kumkun showed great emotions in narrating her previous life and often appeared distressed.

659
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,320
She showed a strong impulse to go to Urdu Bazar in Darbranga.

660
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:05,100
And once when her family were visiting the city, left the group walking determinedly

661
00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:06,280
along the road there.

662
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,680
It was some time before her absence was noted and she had to be forcibly brought back.

663
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,720
Kumkun told her siblings that if they would accompany her to her previous home, she would

664
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:15,960
give them money.

665
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,160
She showed anxieties about the welfare of Gaurish and Kaur.

666
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,040
On a holiday when gifts are customarily exchanged, she asked for money to purchase gifts of clothing

667
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,640
for her grandson and her daughter-in-law.

668
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,840
Several of Kumkun's statements were triggered by incidents such as cooking or objects.

669
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,980
For instance, her reference to her having a pond dug out and paying the laborers came

670
00:36:35,980 --> 00:36:38,920
when her father helped in an archeological dig.

671
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,360
The memories were often voiced as comparisons with the previous life as when she complained

672
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,720
she had less money than previously.

673
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,220
Kumkun showed an unusual interest in snakes.

674
00:36:48,220 --> 00:36:50,280
She was also fearless of them.

675
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,240
Once when she was six, a cobra fell from her tree causing panic among other children.

676
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:58,080
But Kumkun went up to the snake, patted it gently and it crawled away.

677
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,760
Kumkun's parents found her notably more religious than their other children, seemingly to know

678
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,280
the proper procedures for religious ceremony at a very early age.

679
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,640
Kumkun was more mature for her age than other children, willingly doing housework, feeding

680
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,440
small children and looking after sick persons.

681
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:19,520
She would also tend to a child of lower caste that other family members would not touch.

682
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,120
She preferred the company of adults and sometimes adopted adult mannerisms, apparently speaking

683
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,640
with the authority that she felt she retained from the previous life.

684
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,000
Kumkun's family noted that she also spoke Matheli with a different accent from that

685
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:37,680
of her family, which appeared related to the lower class speech used by Muslims in Darbanga.

686
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,600
Occasionally, her phrasing of certain expressions also showed this influence.

687
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:46,480
Just crazy what she was able to come up with and just like everything involved in this.

688
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,600
At what point is not coincidence?

689
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,560
Well, at some point it's just hard to give any other reason for what's going on.

690
00:37:53,560 --> 00:38:00,680
Yeah, I do also like how mundane the things that she's coming like that relaying about

691
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:01,680
the life.

692
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,280
Like there were bars on the window of this one room and it's like, it's not one of

693
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,800
those ones where yeah, I was a famous person.

694
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:14,040
Like it's just like this mundane person from another village that like just a regular person

695
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,960
and she's just relaying like random.

696
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,240
From a lower caste too that you're not allowed to interact with.

697
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,600
So like she shouldn't know anything about that caste level.

698
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:23,960
She talks like them too.

699
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:24,960
It's super cool.

700
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:25,960
Yeah.

701
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,240
Stevenson argued that the considerable social gulf between Kumkun's educated parents and

702
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:34,480
humble Muslim blacksmiths made any previous contact with the two families before Kumkun

703
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,520
began speaking of a previous life very unlikely.

704
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,960
The doings of the inhabitants of Urdu Bazaar and even its existence were of little interest

705
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,600
to people such as the Vermonts.

706
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:49,820
Sundari led a relatively obscure life and it is unlikely that events of her life could

707
00:38:49,820 --> 00:38:53,880
have become known normally to a small girl in a village 40 kilometers away.

708
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,640
The events Kumkun described would have happened at least eight years before she was born.

709
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,640
The difference in social class also makes it unlikely that the Vermonts would embellish

710
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,280
or invent such a connection.

711
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,620
Like this family would not want her to be related to this lower class.

712
00:39:08,620 --> 00:39:12,980
Even after the first verification of Kumkun's statements, there was much less contact between

713
00:39:12,980 --> 00:39:17,320
the two families than is usual in cases of this kind and therefore less likelihood of

714
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,360
cross-contamination of witness testimony.

715
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,400
Stevenson identified three features that he considered to strengthen the authenticity

716
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:24,400
of this case.

717
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,360
The written notes made of many of the child's statements six months before any verifications

718
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:29,360
were made.

719
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,600
The fact that Harish Chandra Mesra, the person who traced the Sundari family, was not closely

720
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,360
connected to the Vermonts and had no connection whatever with the Sundari family of whose

721
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,960
existence he was ignorant of at the start of the inquiries.

722
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:46,320
And third, that his own investigation essentially corroborated the facts revealed in two earlier

723
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:47,600
investigations.

724
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:52,240
So like this is probably one of the best cases to actually look at for investigation sense

725
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:53,500
of what happened here.

726
00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:57,720
And even better than the bomb rainy Wajima because people were alive to verify these

727
00:39:57,720 --> 00:39:59,560
things on both sides.

728
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,520
So those are the cases I wanted to look at.

729
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,560
Now there are definitely critiques of investigators in this area and the idea of reincarnation

730
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,720
in general that I wanted to go over.

731
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:10,560
Stevenson was doing this for a long time.

732
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:11,760
He had people critique him.

733
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:16,880
In an article in Skeptical Inquirer, Angel examined Stevenson's 20 cases suggested for

734
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:21,840
reincarnation and concluded that the research was so poorly conducted as to cast doubt on

735
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,240
all of Stevenson's work.

736
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:28,340
He says that Stevenson failed to clearly and concisely document the claims made before

737
00:40:28,340 --> 00:40:30,240
attempting to verify them.

738
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:34,720
Among a number of other faults, Angel says Stevenson asked leading questions and did

739
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:38,640
not properly tabulate or account for all erroneous statements.

740
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:39,880
And this is a direct quote.

741
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,680
In sum, Stevenson does not skillfully record, present or analyze his own data.

742
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,100
If a case regarded by Stevenson to be among the strongest of his cases, the only case

743
00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:53,920
of 20 that had its purported verification conducted by Stevenson himself falls apart

744
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,800
under scrutiny as badly as the Ahmad Elawar case does.

745
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,720
It is reasonable to conclude that the other cases which data were first gathered by untrained

746
00:41:02,720 --> 00:41:05,320
observers are even less reliable than this one.

747
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,280
Skeptics have written that Stevenson's evidence has always been anecdotal and by applying

748
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:15,880
Occam's razor, there are prosaic explanations for the cases without invoking paranormal.

749
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,280
Science writer Terrence Hines wrote, the major problem with Stevenson's work is that the

750
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,920
methods he used to investigate alleged cases of reincarnation are inadequate to rule out

751
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:30,240
simple, imaginative storytelling on the part of the child claiming to be reincarnated of

752
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:31,240
dead individuals.

753
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:36,480
In the seemingly most impressive cases, Stevenson has reported the children claiming to be reincarnated

754
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,380
new friends and relatives of the dead individuals.

755
00:41:39,380 --> 00:41:45,280
The children's knowledge of facts about these individuals is then somewhat less than conclusive

756
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:46,880
evidence of reincarnation.

757
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,680
There are people who do however talk in support of Stevenson.

758
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,360
Ian Wilson, one of Stevenson's critics, acknowledged that Stevenson had brought a new professionalism

759
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,480
to a hitherto crank-prone field.

760
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:02,280
Paul Edwards wrote that Stevenson has written more fully and more intelligibly in defense

761
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,160
of reincarnation than anybody else.

762
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,880
Though faulting Stevenson's judgment, Edwards wrote, I have the highest regard for his honesty.

763
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,760
All of his case reports contain items that can be made the basis of criticism.

764
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,440
Stevenson could easily have suppressed this information.

765
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,880
The fact that he did not speaks well to his integrity.

766
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,920
Almutter argued in Death in Priscilla's Barber, that Edwards had begged the question by stating

767
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,440
in advance that the idea of consciousness existing without the brain in the interval

768
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:34,440
between lives was incredible, and that Edwards' dogmatic materialism had forced him to the

769
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:39,600
view that Stevenson's case studies must be examples of fraud or delusional thinking.

770
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,040
According to Almutter, the possibility of fraud was indeed investigated in these cases,

771
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,280
and Edwards mentioned.

772
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:50,280
In an article published on the website of Scientific America in 2013 in which Stevenson's

773
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:55,280
work was reviewed favorably, Jesse Baring, a professor of science communications wrote,

774
00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:01,040
Towards the end of his own storied life, the physicist Doris Kuhlmann-Wilsdorf, whose groundbreaking

775
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:07,080
theories on surface physics earned her the prestigious Hain Medal from the German Society

776
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,680
for Material Sciences, surmised that Stevenson's work had established that the statistical

777
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:17,060
probability that reincarnation does in fact occur is so overwhelming that cumulatively

778
00:43:17,060 --> 00:43:21,640
the evidence is not inferior to that for most if not all branches of science.

779
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,440
So this person has their lovers and haters, and I think that's just what you're going

780
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:26,760
to run into in this area.

781
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,020
Yeah, of course you are.

782
00:43:28,020 --> 00:43:32,240
So I just have a few parting words to go over, and then you can say what you want.

783
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:34,720
And this is just talking about reincarnation in general.

784
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:37,880
We're going to talk about some weird notes that people have found.

785
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,560
The strongest contrasts are between European cases and Asian cases.

786
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:47,120
Most European cases are weaker phenomenologically and evidentially than our Asian cases, and

787
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:48,720
intermissions tend to be longer.

788
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:54,840
The median length of 26 solved European cases for which information is available is 24 months

789
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,560
longer than the global median of cases in Stevenson's collection.

790
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,720
The American cases are similar to the European cases in this respect.

791
00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:06,320
For the 16 solved American cases for which reliable information on the intermission is

792
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,600
available, the median interval between lives is 9.5 years.

793
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,040
So it's weird that there's a cultural difference between how long it takes to…

794
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,600
That's super weird.

795
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,540
Another pattern that European and American cases have in common is that intermission

796
00:44:19,540 --> 00:44:24,120
lengths are notably shorter in family and acquaintances cases than in stranger cases.

797
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,920
In the European cases, the median intermission for family cases is 15 months, whereas for

798
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,920
strangers cases it is 13 years.

799
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,640
In the American case the median intermission in family cases is 3 years, whereas with stranger

800
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,620
cases it is 40 years.

801
00:44:37,620 --> 00:44:42,880
This pattern is not evident in Asian cases, perhaps because the intermission in all cases

802
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,360
is comparatively brief and there are fewer cases with family and acquaintance connections.

803
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,600
With unsolved cases, the intermission length cannot be calculated precisely, but unsolved

804
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:57,160
European cases often give the impression of having a past life many years before the present.

805
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,040
The apparent median intermission in these cases is about 100 years.

806
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:06,200
The apparent median intermission in unsolved American cases is roughly 30 to 50 years,

807
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,400
similar to the median intermission of solved stranger cases.

808
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,840
In accordance to the general pattern, there are a few American and European international

809
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:14,840
cases.

810
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:20,440
Of the 46 European cases, two are international, of the 35 American cases, three have an international

811
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:21,440
connection.

812
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:27,020
Reincarnation researcher James Matlock speculates that longer intermission in Western

813
00:45:27,020 --> 00:45:31,280
cases would allow spirits of the deceased to meet loved ones at their death, a Western

814
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,200
expectation not shared by the rest of the world.

815
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,640
Longer intermissions means greater difference between present and previous lives, presenting

816
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,360
fewer cues to recall, which may help explain why European and American cases are relatively

817
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:44,360
rare.

818
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,080
I found this very interesting.

819
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:51,880
Tucker and a co-author investigated the relationship between gender identity and past life recall,

820
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,960
analyzing 469 cases.

821
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:59,200
It was found that children who remembered an opposite sex previous life were far more

822
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:05,680
likely to exhibit gender non-conforming behaviors than children who reported past lives personalities

823
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:11,120
of the same sex, suggesting that an influence on gender identity from past life memories.

824
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,920
The conclusion of this work are complicated by an investigation of a boy from Thailand

825
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,520
who was considered by family members to be a reincarnation of his maternal grandmother

826
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,560
on the basis of a supposedly shared birthmark.

827
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:27,680
The boy subsequently demonstrated cross-gender behavior, disraised the possibility of influence

828
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:33,080
of family and community expectations on gender identity development that may masquerade as

829
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,680
past life influence in some cases.

830
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,680
He did look into gender dysphoria and its impact from past lives, which I find super

831
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:41,680
interesting.

832
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:46,000
That is very interesting because if you're remembering a past life so vividly, you could

833
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:47,560
see it feeling wrong.

834
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,680
And the last thing I wanted to leave off with is this is just going to be super brief.

835
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:55,240
I'm in fact just going to give a brief statement because I want to do an episode on it later.

836
00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:56,240
Xenoglossy.

837
00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:59,920
Xenoglossy denotes the use of language unlearned in the present life.

838
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:04,960
It can range from influence on an accent or other aspects of speech performance to the

839
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,600
use of words and phrases without comprehension of their meaning to the ability to converse

840
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,080
in a completely unlearned language.

841
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:17,440
Stevenson did connect this to past lives just without memories being used per se.

842
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:22,440
So Xenoglossy I would like to do its own episode on because I think that would be a fun episode,

843
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,400
but that is where I want to leave that off.

844
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:25,680
A whole lot of cases.

845
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,000
There are so many more we could go over, but like we're running out of time right now.

846
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,520
Just don't go over the ones we did.

847
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,540
I wonder if I should have brought it up when you're talking about it, but I wonder if the

848
00:47:35,540 --> 00:47:44,000
less time in Asian cultures between reincarnation has to do with obviously in Asian cultures,

849
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,660
there's much more of a belief in reincarnation.

850
00:47:47,660 --> 00:47:49,280
So people are actually looking for it.

851
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:50,560
Is that what you're getting at?

852
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:51,560
I don't know.

853
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:58,160
Maybe just if you're carrying the belief forward, if it has to do with reincarnating sooner

854
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,800
or the expect.

855
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,640
You wouldn't think that that would go with a kid.

856
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:03,840
There's something there though.

857
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,680
There's a reason why it's the last time.

858
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:07,680
I get that.

859
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:08,760
And it's cultural.

860
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,360
So you would think that it has something to do with the both such a.

861
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:13,360
Yeah, no, but.

862
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,520
I think it's a cultural belief in reincarnation.

863
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,280
I did have something to say about that.

864
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,920
And then I just realized that I would say, yeah, that would be why it's rare, but rarity

865
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,780
actually has nothing to do with the amount of time it actually takes between the deceased

866
00:48:26,780 --> 00:48:29,400
life ending and the new life beginning.

867
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:30,400
Exactly.

868
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:31,400
Maybe.

869
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,360
Yeah, it's hard to speak on it.

870
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,640
It wouldn't be a faux pas to talk about it just because it happened so soon.

871
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:37,720
That's the only.

872
00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:41,240
Or it could be because there is that kind of like grieving period.

873
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:43,640
We actually have a fairly long grieving period.

874
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,120
Yeah, and that's the only correlation you can kind of make between the two.

875
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:52,120
But even then, that wouldn't impact what he called the intermission period.

876
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,360
That would just impact like when you would actually start talking about it or making

877
00:48:55,360 --> 00:49:00,040
that correlation, not necessarily how long the time between the lives would be.

878
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,880
That's a super interesting little tidbit that they're able to put together.

879
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,400
I've never heard that before.

880
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:10,960
The other thing with the where you're seeing hundred years between lives, it's almost

881
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,440
like they could have fit a whole other life and they're remembering just a life that was

882
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,440
strong came through stronger than another one.

883
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,960
But nobody actually knows how reincarnation works and how long you actually have between

884
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:23,960
lives.

885
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,120
I assume it varies on lives how long before you reincarnate.

886
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,680
But yeah, those are super interesting facts.

887
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:31,680
Yeah.

888
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:36,160
And of course, I've left out, of course, the most famous reincarnation cases of Edgar Cayce

889
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,320
and then, oh, what's his pumpkin bowl cut head?

890
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:40,320
Pumpkin bowl cut head.

891
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:41,320
David Wilcock.

892
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:42,320
David Wilcock.

893
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:43,320
Yeah.

894
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:44,320
David Wilcock.

895
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:45,200
Of course, we covered it on a whole like,

896
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:46,200
reincarnation.

897
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:47,200
We've already done those.

898
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:53,760
Yeah, I really like that episode.

899
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,680
That's super interesting way that I've never heard it put together before.

900
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,680
And if we wanted to, like we could do an adult episode and a xyloglyph episode.

901
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,200
I'm sorry, I forget the word.

902
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:05,200
I always do.

903
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:06,200
Xenoglossy.

904
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,880
Xenoglossy episode, which I think we should do in the future, both of those.

905
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,640
And yeah, like weird cases.

906
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,360
And there's people doing research into it.

907
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:16,360
So it's interesting.

908
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:17,360
I like it.

909
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,560
And I will leave my opinion out until I read more about it.

910
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:21,560
Okay.

911
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,960
Because it does not impact my life at all.

912
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,540
Yeah.

913
00:50:27,540 --> 00:50:29,740
And with that, I have been Taylor here with Chelsea.

914
00:50:29,740 --> 00:50:30,740
We are Journey to the Fringe.

915
00:50:30,740 --> 00:50:33,520
Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week.

916
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,840
Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe.

917
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:41,920
If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or follow,

918
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,040
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919
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:51,320
Also, please, if possible, leave a five star review as that really helps us in the algorithms.

920
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:56,200
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921
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:57,920
I bet you we are there.

922
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:02,360
And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell

923
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:09,240
us that we're wrong and terrible, either way, please send us an email at journeytothefringe.gmail.com.

924
00:51:09,240 --> 00:51:36,240
For now, I'll see you in the next episode.