This episode contains discussion of alleged child molestation and suicide. Viewer discretion is advised.
This week I'm gonna start with the topic that I'm all sure you're all thinking of.
Especially when this came out three weeks after we talked about it.
Well there's probably still people thinking about it.
And yeah, so by the time this makes it out the Queen's death will be really old news.
That we would cover that. And what we will cover however is what the Queen's death means for British Andy.
Which I'm sure nobody is familiar with. So even if it's three weeks later.
What's this big news by that time? You never know.
British Andy by that point has probably done something to make himself look like an ass.
So I would not be surprised if he's in the news for something.
Probably. He really does a lot of ass like things.
It's not easy to find. It's not like headlines like the other.
It's not going to be like his mom can just cancel his birthdays in the future now.
Because his mom's dead.
Yeah, but she really liked him apparently. So this article I'm using is from the Daily Mail.
However a lot of news publications were putting out the same kind of material.
And it's entitled What Now for Prince Andrew After the Queen's Death.
Thank you for asking the important questions Daily Mail.
Specifically on this opener.
So why are we talking about British Andy and where does he come from?
Well we covered him in an opener on oh my god do you know what what opener we use this on?
What episode?
It's gonna go with Dinosaur Ghost.
It was. Yeah.
No way!
It was.
It was. And the only reason I know that is because I gave my phone to this little child last night.
And it was queued up on the radio when I turned on my car and it switched to Bluetooth this morning.
And it was talking about British Andy.
Yeah, we have a little child who really believes in us and our affinity with Dinosaur Ghost.
And that we can really make it work.
It's his favorite episode.
Which we really need you the listener to agree with him on.
It's a good episode.
I really think it was a good episode.
Go back listen to Dinosaur Ghost in its entirety.
Not only for the opener because it's a good episode about Dinosaur Ghost.
Anyhow, Fish Andy is not very well liked and was stripped of his honorary military roles.
Fired from official duties.
His title was revoked amid the US civil case brought against him by Virginia Jouffre and his involvement with Jeffrey Epstein.
Last time he was seen at any royal event was March 29, 2022.
Where he escorted his mother into Westminster Abbey for the service of his father Prince Philip.
And people still question why he was there and talking to the press.
They're pretty pissed.
They don't like regular person Andy.
He had no place at the Queen's Platinum Jubilee in June and other things.
I'm not going to go through all this.
Some places he did have a place, however, didn't show.
He said he had COVID and a million other excuses for other things.
Oh, I can't sweat.
Oh, that's why you're not there.
And there's that little controversy as well.
But to be frank, who cares where he wasn't allowed?
The point is he's not really allowed anywhere really.
Nobody likes him.
Now with all that aside, it is said that the Queen really had a soft spot for regular person Andy.
She so lovingly called him, of course.
And she took comfort in those around her that his civil sex case was settled outside of court in New York.
He bigot relatively down low for the monarchy, especially in the year of her Platinum Jubilee.
Royal author Phil Dampier told Mail Online, quote,
Prince Andrew will be devastated by the Queen's death because he was always her favorite child.
Although he was in disgrace because of his involvement with the Jeffrey Epstein scandal,
he still saw more of her in private than his siblings.
Living at Royal Lodge was just a short distance from Windsor Castle.
He would see her on an almost daily basis.
He supported her when she was most frail and was always there for her in person or on the phone whenever she needed him.
Or if he needed 20 bucks.
Yeah, most importantly of all, because he just kind of lives off her.
He seems like the type.
Yeah, there is an unbreakable bond between them and she must have been devastated when his name was dragged through the mud.
He only had himself to blame, of course, and it's difficult to feel sympathy for him.
But as a mother, she always supported him.
So with all that being said, obviously, the Queen really looked out for him.
Obviously, she kept him salaried and housed in a Crown estate,
paying some of, if not all of the 13 million paid to settle the lawsuit.
But what happens with King Charles III?
That still sounds wrong.
Yeah.
Surely he does not have the same soft spot for regular Andy as his mother did.
It's said that both Charles and William present a united front of an attitude towards Andy.
That of regret and consternation.
And this may offer some indication of the road ahead for Andy.
Herald resorts that Charles and William are expected to want the aftermath of the Queen's funeral to signal the end of Andrew's public appearances.
While the monarch can't take away his dukedom, only the Parliament can.
Charles, however, can decide where his relatives get to live and the salary they get.
And while we're talking about that, Andrew signed a 75 year lease on the Royal Lodge in 2003
and would probably have to be repaid for the millions of pounds he put into renovations if he were to be evicted.
However, it seems before her death, the Queen was supplying the bulk of Andrew's mysterious income from her private duchy.
Never heard of that word for money.
Of Lancaster income.
So the Queen was an enabler.
The most probable outcome for the Duke would appear to be life in the Royal Wilderness, as they call it.
Certain Royal experts have speculated that casting Andrew out would do more harm than good,
allowing him to embark on projects like writing a book and going back on TV.
He was on TV.
Yeah, that one time where he sweat.
But yeah, that was horrible.
I would want to keep him away from that too.
So keeping him quiet and out of the public eye likely works out better for them than setting him loose into the world.
As such, he might be staying right where he was.
And just one more thing to mention.
An incredible amount of people wanting to know what is going to happen to the Queen's precious corgis.
And just recently we have found out that they have been left to regular person Andy and his ex-wife for some reason.
Not sure why the ex-wife and him are going to share the corgis, but they were left to him and now he's going to take care of them.
So there's a huge update on regular person Andy on the opener on this episode.
Yeah, my guess is the Queen always wanted that relationship to work.
So she's concocted a scheme from beyond the grave to bring them together through high antics and the style of a 1980s comedy.
Oh yeah, there's no doubt about that.
The Queen's corgis.
You'll see it on like PBS in like three years.
Yes.
With regular person Andy played by, in fact, regular person Andy because he really needs the cash at this point.
It would be $30 bucks.
They're paying people.
That's our update.
There's probably not going to be any more to come because no one's going to want to talk about now that the Queen's out.
He's not going to be around anymore.
I suspect that's it.
Okay.
With that, let's get into this episode from the unexplained to the mundane.
Join us on our journey to the fringe.
Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, where we put the fringe in Satan, which goes to show you how many silent letters are in fact in the word Satan.
I was just going to say I'm pronouncing it wrong.
We are your impeccable spelling host, podcast host, Taylor and Chelsea here today, starting off the most eerie of months with a little bit of capers and Halloween know-how to bring us into a festive spirit.
We're going to be kicking off this month, slowly progressing to earier and earier topics to bring us into Halloween.
And today we are going to start off this festive season with, of course, a little look at Satan, more specifically his cults on earth or more specifically how there were actually not that many of them on earth in the 1980s and people made a big fuss about them, aka the satanic panic.
Did we actually just need more to fix it?
We could have.
In fact, having satanic cults on earth at that time actually would have helped a lot.
Okay.
Purely anecdotal answer to that story, but please stay tuned to actually see the rest of the story.
Now, I'm sure you're all familiar with the phrase satanic panic.
Chelsea, have you heard that before?
Yes, I've heard it many a time.
Do you actually know what that's referring to?
Yeah, it's like people being scared of satanic cults in mundane things, like Dungeons and Dragons and stuff like that.
Okay, good. Perfect.
Everyone was panicking about Satan running amok, challenging them to jumping competitions in Newfoundland.
Anyhow, when we're talking about satanic panic, generally what people will be specifically talking about is an era that occurred in the 1980s, which a lot of allegations by several groups were thrust forth on different parts of society.
Satanic worship and satanic cults and abuse towards children.
I'm going to be focusing on three parts today.
Going to be daycares, Dungeons and Dragons and music.
He cares.
That's actually the part I'm going to start with.
Now, why exactly did this pop up in such a weird time in the 1980s?
Well, it actually seems like a fairly perfect culmination of several factors.
The Wikipedia page on this gives five factors.
I believe there are a few more outside of this.
It's the idea of the establishment of the fundamentalist Christianity and the founding of political activism of the religious organizations, which was named the moral majority.
The rise of anti-cult movements, which accused abusive cults of kidnapping and brainwashing children and teens.
The appearance of the Church of Satan in the 1960s and really rising to prominence in the 80s.
And other explicitly satanist groups, which added a kernel of truth to the existence of satanic cults.
The development of social work or child protection fields and its struggle to have child sexual abuse recognized as a social problem and a serious crime.
And of course, the popularization of post-traumatic stress disorder, repressed memories and corresponding survivor movement.
Some of those are kind of weird.
Yeah, it's going to come up very early.
The next one that I've also heard added to this as well, the movement to a dual income household and therefore having people have to watch your children who aren't you.
Which has really pushed towards daycares, other groups having to be in charge of your children.
And from a Christian standpoint, having fear about who's influencing your children.
Now, this all comes to a head with a book called Michelle Remembers, which was published in 1980.
It was written by a Canadian, Michelle Smith, as well as her husband, Lawrence Pazder.
Pazder gets really famous on this book.
It was written in the form of an autobiography presenting the first modern claim that child abuse was linked to satanic ritual.
Pazder was also responsible for coining the term ritual abuse, as we see comes up a lot in these stories.
From this book, Pazder developed a higher media profile and gave lectures and training on satanic ritual abuse to law enforcement.
And by September of 1990, had acted as a consultant on more than 1000 satanic ritual abuse cases.
Prosecutors would also use Michelle Remembers as a guide when preparing cases against alleged satanists.
What?
Yeah, this book, and like I did not read this book.
I have it on hold at the library.
I want to read it, but it's just it's getting into the high demand season.
So I don't get it.
No, but I can give you a little bit of a synopsis.
Michelle, which is Michelle of the Michelle Remembers, documents her repressed in quotation marks,
memories that were covered during a therapy session under Panzer.
Most of the stories involve scenarios that wouldn't feel out of place in a B grade exploitation movie of the time period.
And there are even cameos from Jesus, the Virgin Mary and Archangel Michael,
who all appear to save Michelle from a ritual attended by Satan himself.
The Holy Trinity then erases her terrible memories and scars until the time was right.
This is literally the book.
She was involved in satanic cults, rituals, and Jesus came and saved her and then repressed the memory for her because it's too violent.
And her husband, who is a psychologist, helped her get those memories back.
Oh, because sounds like she really needed them.
Yeah, apparently.
Especially if Jesus was coming to protect her from them.
And this idea of repressed memories like this ends up being huge in this movement.
In 2016, Michelle Remembers will be dismissed as absolutely fiction and horror pulp novel full of cheap schlock and outlandish fantasies.
But when it was first coming out, it was accepted as a clinical fact and used as guide by law enforcement, courts, medical professionals and concerned citizens.
That's so messed up that they're using it in court and as like law enforcement.
They weren't even just using that in court.
The guy who wrote it became the expert witness you would bring in on cases to interview people who are pretty messed up.
And then it gets like debunked to speak.
It was right from the bat, but there was a set of people who were like, oh, no, there's there's Satan out there.
Oh, Lordy, he's out there.
Oh, my God.
That's messed up.
Okay.
But in the wake of this book coming out and this whole idea, we're going to start with what happens in daycares and we're going to look at it.
This case gives you a perfect example of exactly what was brought forth from people.
It's called the McMartin trial.
And here's the scenario.
It's 1983.
Judy Johnson, mother of one child living in Manhattan Beach, California.
Child is in preschool.
He's a young student and she goes to the police and reports that her son has been sodomized both by her estranged husband and also by a McMartin teacher by the name of Ray Buckey.
McMartin is the daycare he's going to.
Now, why does she say that?
Johnson's belief that her son had been abused began when her son had painful bowel movements, you know, because nothing causes painful bowel movements other than children being sodomized, not a poor low fiber diet that Chelsea can surely attest to in certain scenarios.
Not myself.
I eat tons of fiber.
In case anyone's curious.
Some sources state that at the time Johnson's son denied her suggestion that this preschool teacher had molested him, whereas some also confirm it that he did say it.
But at the end of the day, that's not really what matters.
What matters is that this kid couldn't shit.
So his mom said, oh, you must have been sodomized by this teacher.
That's pretty messed up that that was the first thing she thought of to you.
Yeah.
And then Johnson also made several accusations, including that people to daycare had sexual encounters with animals that quote Peggy drilled a child under the arm.
And quote, Ray flew in the air.
And sorry, when I say Johnson, that's the child.
Like this is what he told the parents once they started like questioning him about the satanic stuff happening at this daycare.
I'm going to repeat that.
Yeah.
The daycare had sexual encounters with animals that Peggy drilled a child under the arms and that Ray flew in the air.
Initially, Ray Buckey was questioned but was not prosecuted due to a lack of evidence and the police sent home a form letter to the students that attend this preschool. It's about 200 in total.
And this is what the letter said.
Dear parent, this department is conducting a criminal investigation involving child molestation against Ray Buckey, an employee of Virginia McMartin's preschool, who was arrested on September 7th, 1983 by this department.
The following procedure is obviously an unpleasant one, but to protect the rights of your children, as well as the rights of the accused, this inquiry is necessary for a complete investigation.
Records indicate that your child has been or is currently a student at the preschool.
We are asking your assistance in this continuing investigation.
Please question your child to see if he or she has been witness to any crime or if he or she has been a victim.
Our investigation indicates that possible criminal acts include oral sex, fondling of genitals, buttock or chest area, and sodomy, possibly committed under the pretense of taking a child's temperature.
Also, photos may have been taken of children without their clothing.
Any information from your child regarding having ever observed Ray Buckey to leave a classroom alone with the child during any nap period or if they have ever observed Ray Buckey tie up a child is important.
Please complete this enclosed information form and return it to this department in the enclosed stamped return envelope as soon as possible.
We will contact you if circumstances dictate the same.
We ask you please keep this investigation strictly confidential because of the nature of the charges and highly emotional effects it could have on our community.
Please do not discuss this investigation with anyone outside your immediate family and do not contact or discuss the investigation with Raymond Buckey.
Any member of the accused defendant's family or employees connected with McMartin Preschool.
And in all caps at the very bottom, there is no evidence to indicate that the management of Virginia McMartin Preschool had any knowledge of the situation.
No detrimental information concerning the operation of the school has been discovered during the investigation.
Also, no other employee in the school is under investigation for any criminal act.
So kind of messed up for a police department to just say like, oh, we don't really have anything to hold you on. So we're just going to like see if anybody else has said anything at all.
There's a lot of things I noticed in there.
First of all, that they're just sending a letter that says please respond and ask your child.
They're not getting like child psychologists with something that has to do with sexual assault.
Oh, they haven't gotten child psychologists yet.
They're just like straight out accusing this guy.
Yeah. Hey, ask your kid if Ray ever performed oral sex on your child.
Like that's kind of messed up.
Preschooler that like if you say something, they'll be like, yeah, totally.
Not just saying like, hey, can you ask your kids if anything weird happens at school?
Like, I think that's literally all you need to do.
Yeah, pretty much anything you feel uncomfortable with.
But yeah, that's that's the grips that this satanic panic had had on society at that time.
That's so weird.
Or at least this police station, which pushed them to do that.
With that, they got responses from parents and children.
Some of the accusations they describe are less than normal.
Quite a few of them overlap with accusations that mirror the emerging satanic ritual abuse panic.
Now, in the stories that they hear, it is alleged that in addition to having being sexually abused,
some of these children had seen witches flying over top of the building.
Some of them had traveled in a hot air balloon.
The kids.
Yeah. And some were taken through an underground set of tunnels.
This I was just going to say this.
Imagine the stories you get from preschoolers when you say if anything weird is happening.
Because or, you know, Satan related.
Yeah, not even Satan related.
Remember that book you had from kindergarten?
You just question all the kids and you just sit and laugh at how crazy.
Oh, yeah. What do you want to be when you grow up?
I want to be a Power Ranger.
And Mrs. Whoever's a boy.
Like they have no idea what's going on in reality.
It gets to the point like they're showing these kids pictures of the people that work in the school.
I'm saying like which one of these people abused you and they pick out pictures.
And from this Chuck Norris actually ends up being accused as one of the abusers
because they mixed in a picture of Chuck Norris and the kids like, yeah, that's the one who touched my butt.
Some of the abuse was alleged to have occurred in secret tunnels beneath the school
and several excavations turned up evidence of old buildings on the site.
Another debris from the store the school was built, but no evidence of a secret chambers or tunnels was ever found.
I can imagine it getting out of hand at this point.
Yeah. And there were also claims of orgies at car washes and airports
and of children being flushed down toilets to secret rooms where they would be abused.
Yeah, preschoolers using orgies and like all of this.
See, I feel like the term orgy was added in to like condense what was being said.
Literally, I just assume kids say touched butts a lot and there's like everybody in a car touching butts.
Oh, yeah, that's like a popular thing to say when you're that age.
Yeah, not to say that like sexual assault is a serious thing.
It is not not. Yeah, it is not.
It is but this just when you're putting it in this people who are so susceptible to being led like preschoolers
and I know how crazy the things that they say are if you give them a little bit of an opening.
How like 10 year olds like your kids.
Oh, yeah, it happens. They do not live in reality.
Yeah, just to like add to that.
They're saying they were being flushed down toilets to secret rooms where they would be abused
then cleaned up and presented back to their parents.
Some child interviewees talked about a game called Naked Movie Star
and suggested that they were forcibly photographed nude.
However, during trial testimony, some children say that the Naked Movie Star game was actually a rhyming
taught used to tease other children where they say what you say is what you are.
You're a naked movie star. Oh, yeah. I'm familiar with that.
It had nothing to do with having naked pictures taken.
He says oh God.
Judy Johnson who made these initial allegations also made bizarre
and impossible statements about Ray Buckey including that he could fly again not the child.
Judy Johnson's the mom.
I thought it was the child that originally said that and she's just believing the no she fully believes it about her child.
Oh my God.
So the child said it now.
She's like he flies.
She's pushing it.
Yeah, though the prosecution asserted Johnson's mental illness was caused by the events of the trial.
Johnson had admitted to them that she was mentally ill beforehand.
So this mom also does have mental illness.
Okay.
Evidence of Johnson's mental illness was withheld from the defense for three years
and when provided was in the form of a sanitized report that excluded Johnson's statements at the order of prosecution.
That not be illegal like that would be important.
This is a super messed up case.
One of the original prosecutors Glenn Stevens left the case in protest and stated that the other prosecutors had withheld evidence from the defense
including the information that Johnson's son did not actually identify Ray Buckey in a series of photographs.
Was it Chuck Norris?
It probably was Chuck Norris in fact.
Stevens also accused Robert Philovoshin the deputy district attorney on the case of lying and withholding evidence from the court
and defense lawyers in order to keep Buckey in jail and prevent access to exonerating evidence.
Like this is such a messed up case.
What ends up coming of this is it lasts seven years in courts and it cost 15 million dollars to the taxpayer.
Holy shit.
It's considered the longest and most expensive criminal case in the history of the United States legal system to date.
This one?
Yes and resulted in no conviction.
Well, it doesn't seem like it'd be able to.
Seven years? Who would be on that jury?
To be fair, I'm assuming there were a lot of mistrials along the way.
I had to keep it brief for the purpose of this episode because we're going into several things.
Like it's so messed up and the McMartin preschool was closed and the building was dismantled after this all ended.
I would assume it would be closed.
Yeah, like you've had so much reputation loss at that point.
Oh yeah.
Did they sue?
You know, do you sue for that?
No, you can't because that's a criminal charge.
I mean, it doesn't matter.
You get a letter home from a daycare saying someone's been accused of sexual assault at a daycare.
Like people are going to probably immediately pull all their kids out.
Yeah, exactly.
And in 2005, I found this one statement.
One of the children as an adult made the statement overtracking their allegation of abuse.
Never did anyone do anything to me and I never saw them do anything.
I said a lot of things that didn't happen.
I lied.
Anytime I would give them an answer they didn't like, they would ask again and encourage me to give them the answers they were looking for.
I felt uncomfortable and a little ashamed that I was being dishonest.
But at the same time, being the type of person I was, whatever my parents wanted me to do, I would do.
Yeah, I mean at that age you're so easily susceptible and you don't really have a moral compass.
Exactly.
Yeah, and like you're just like, oh yeah, no, like this isn't I don't know if this is hurting anybody.
I'm just going to say these things.
Yeah, I don't care about these people because I'm three.
Yeah, that's one of many daycare sexual abuse and satanic ritual abuse cases that comes out of this period.
That's crazy.
Absolutely insane.
It is not alone in its own vacuum or bubble.
In fact, you might be relieved to hear that it actually is a happy ending compared to a lot of the cases that actually go before the courts that we're going to be talking about a little later.
Okay, I was like how so but I guess we're going to learn about it.
Yeah, we're going to move on from the daycares and we're going to talk about a little tabletop adventure game known as Dungeons and Dragons.
Now some of you may not have heard of this game as it is fairly new.
It is a tabletop role playing game where you pretend to be something that you are not with somebody telling you how the story is going and therefore dictating your future life and all endeavors including deaths, curses, sexual assaults and ritual abuse that may happen in your near future.
That of course being at least how a 1980s parent may describe Dungeons and Dragons to you.
It does not have a good reputation going into the 80s.
In 1979, all it is is a fantasy game where you pretend to be something in your mind and discuss how are you going to thwart things or get past problems.
As a group, if you're old enough, you drink beer in the bar and make poor decisions as you go.
That's it. That's literally Dungeons and Dragons.
I have played it for years.
I have not committed suicide nor have I felt that Dungeons and Dragons has pushed me to commit crimes.
In fact, I think it prevents you from doing crimes because it prevents you from being cool.
Yeah, and wouldn't this is all people who probably haven't played Dungeons and Dragons that are making all these accusations.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I just wanted to get that straight.
That is not people who play it religiously that are making these accusations.
No, exactly. Now, Gary Gygax created Dungeons and Dragons in the late 70s.
There's some pushback.
It might be an interesting story in the future to talk about issues that they had with the JRR Tolkien's estate when it comes to naming rights for many different creatures that are in the game.
But for now, we're just talking about the satanic panic.
So we're going to keep it at that.
Kids are playing this game and apparently they're being driven to suicide like fairly often in 1979.
A 16 year old child prodigy and sorry, this is literally all opinion pieces.
Basically, when you hear them describe how these kids are in 1975, a 16 year old child prodigy, James Dallas Egbert, the third, disappeared from his room at Michigan State University.
A private investigator, William Deer, was hired by James's parents to find their son. Despite apparently knowing little about role playing games, Deer believed that D&D was the cause of Egbert's disappearance.
In truth, it was because of his name, Egbert.
Don't ever name your kid Egbert.
No, it's actually because Egbert suffered from, among other things, depression and drug addiction and had gone into hiding in the utility tunnels under the university during an episode of self-harm.
The well-publicized episode, though, referred to as the steam tunnel incident prompted a number of works of fiction, including the novel Mazes and Monsters in 1982 and Tom Hanks film of the same name.
In fact, you can find clips of Tom Hanks playing a kid about to commit suicide because he's too involved in the industry.
Robbie!
Pardue, what are you doing?
Going to join the Great Hall.
You can't, it's a trap.
I have spells.
I'm going to fly.
You don't have enough points.
I am the maze controller.
Maze co-
Maze controller?
Yes.
And I have absolute authority in this game.
Game?
Game.
JJ, what am I doing here?
Egbert later dies from a self-inflicted gunshot wound in 1980.
Despite the evidence regarding his mental health problems, some activists believe Egbert's suicide was caused by D&D.
Doesn't even make sense.
And another one, in 1982, high school student Irving Lee Pulling died after shooting himself in the chest,
despite an article in the Washington Post at the time commenting how Pulling had trouble fitting in.
His mother, Pat Pulling, believed her son's suicide was caused by D&D, and Pat Pulling is actually a huge character here.
Her son, Irving, committed suicide by shooting himself in the chest on June 9, 1982.
Irving was active in the role-playing games, and she believed his suicide was directly related to the Dungeons & Dragons game.
The grieving mother first filed a wrongful death lawsuit against her son's high school principal, Robert A. Bracey III,
holding him as responsible for what she claims was a D&D curse placed upon her son's character shortly before his death.
She also filed suit against TSR Inc., who publishes D&D.
Again, it was clear that the most complex psychological factors in this scenario were at play.
Victoria Rocherly, a classmate of Irving Pulling, commented that
he had a lot of problems anyway that weren't associated with the game.
Despite the court dismissing these cases, Pulling continued her campaign by forming
Bothered About Dungeons & Dragons in 1983, which has the initials BAD.
Funny enough, she seems to be more worried about what the initials will look like and making sure it looks good.
Pulling described D&D as a fantasy role-playing game which fuses demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape,
blasphemy, suicide, assassinations, insanity, sex, perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic-type rituals,
gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon-summoning, necromantics, divination, and other teachings.
I really need to take a second here and say she threw in homosexuality with literally everything else that's terrible and illegal.
It's a time period to do that, I mean.
Yeah, it definitely is.
It's not out of this realm.
Sorry about the prostitution as well.
Because we're talking about a made-up game and they're blaming it on suicides and stuff like that, so might as well throw it in there.
I mean, it's not really based in reality.
It might come up in a bit, I'll get to it when we get to it.
And if anything, with all these things that these people are battling, which is most likely depression and drug abuse and stuff from at least what you were just saying,
they're probably using D&D as an escape of some sort.
If they're battling depression or something like that and they're having a hard time, it's probably helping them.
Not in the instance where they actually committed suicide, but it was probably some sort of escape.
You bring up a good point where they're actually probably trying to also hide the fact that they're using it as escape from their family,
which is just adding stress to it because their family is going to be worried that they're practicing satanic rituals.
Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, that's another good point.
Not only is it just like you're one of few escapes from society, it's something that your family would disown you over as well or take away from you as an escape.
That's a stupid game.
Should they ever find it?
Yeah. Okay.
So Pat and Bad launched an intensive media campaign through conservative Christian outlets, as well as mainstream media, including an appearance on 60 Minutes opposite Gary Gygix.
And that's the first clip, Chelsea, I put in the general chat that I want you to show to us.
Yeah.
D&D, it's become popular with children anywhere from grammar school on up.
Not so with a lot of adults who think it's been connected to a number of suicides and murders.
The idea of the game, which is played by highly imaginative and intelligent kids, is to assume the role of one of the characters.
One game can go on for weeks or even months.
The problem seems to be that some kids take it more seriously than others take it a step further, playing a character who brings them the power in a game they couldn't possibly get in real life.
There are those who are fearful that the game in the hands of vulnerable kids could do harm, and there is evidence that seems to support that view.
Timothy Grice, 21, a shotgun suicide.
The detective report noted D&D became a reality.
Irving Benk Pulling, 16, an avid D&D player, a suicide.
Daniel and Stephen Irwin, 16 and 12, a murder and a suicide.
The police said they were obsessed with the game.
James Allen Kirby, 14 years old, charged with killing his junior high school principal and wounding three other people.
Police are blaming D&D.
Jeffrey Jachlovich, 14.
Stephen Lojeckano, 16.
Michael Dempsey, 17.
And the list goes on.
The company that makes the Dungeons & Dragons material is TSR Incorporated of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.
They estimate there are three to four million kids who play the game.
Last year they grossed nearly $30 million with Dungeons & Dragons books and paraphernalia accounting for most of those sales.
Gary Gygax owns the company and invented the game.
Dieter Sturm is the head of public relations.
There are a number of cases that have been documented where there is some connection between D&D.
I'm not saying that D&D is the cause of the death, but paraphernalia from the game has been found at the scene of the death.
Suicide notes referring to the game have been found.
And all of these people in a dozen or so cases have been documented as avid D&D players.
So he said D&D paraphernalia found at the scene of the death is a very deceptive way of saying these kids committed suicide in their bedroom.
Ah, that is an incredibly deceptive way because there's probably a million other things that could be found there.
It's kind of like saying owning a bed leads to suicide.
I love the sway. I mean, that's such a sad thing, but I love the swig of the owner, the creator of Dungeons & Dragons. Look at him.
First off, he uses a fantastic sweater. That is a sweater that adds plus three charisma.
Second off, just wait until he actually talks. Like this guy does not take the guff. Good on him for what he says here.
Okay, I like this. Okay, let's go.
And you see no connection whatsoever.
We see no connection for the fact that right now there's some three to four million players of the game actively throughout the United States.
Right at this particular time, 1985 teenage suicide is epidemic across the country with some 5,000 kids a year now taking their lives.
I think that to say that because that child played Dungeons & Dragons, who's to say that that child does not watch television, does not participate in high school sports or what per se?
I have yet to see one bit of valid clinical evidence to show that this has been anything more than coincidental with a disturbed child.
If you found 12 kids in murder-suicide with one connecting factor in each of them, wouldn't you question it? And that's all people do.
I would certainly do it in a scientific manner, and this is as unscientific as you can get it. It's nothing but a witch hunt.
Oh, Jesus. This is crazy. That's so stupid. There's probably more than one connecting factor in all of them.
Yeah. All teenagers.
Yes, but Pat Pulling is the one here that's next, the one who started bad. There are 12-year-old daughters in the background here.
But the families who have suffered the loss of a loved one would disagree. Pat and Lee Pulling and their 12-year-old daughter, Melissa.
The Pullings came home one night three years ago and found Bink, their son, dead on the front lawn of their home in Montpelier, Virginia.
He had shot himself through the heart with his father's handgun. Until that night, they had never heard of the game Dungeons & Dragons.
Then they began looking through his things.
We went into the kitchen and there on the table were what we thought were just regular composition books with schoolwork in it,
and much of the Dungeons & Dragons material along with this curse he had received in the game that day that he died.
The curse that was placed on Bink's D&D character began, Your soul is mine. I choose the time.
In a letter that he left, Bink said he had been summoned to kill himself because he was evil.
It was obvious through his writings that he felt he had assumed this character, but what I couldn't get into my mind was, is it possible?
How could anybody do that? How could a 16-year-old that is smart, intelligent, why would they believe that they were something in a game
and why would they kill theirself because somebody else said to do it?
Your son was well adjusted?
Always. He had never had psychological problems. He was healthy, even physically healthy.
Well, we found that there's been numerous parents who say that the child's had no problems and such.
Very conclusively, we go back to details of reports of classmates, of teachers, of friends and such,
who very much kind of show that the youngster didn't fit in to school.
He had outside problems and generally problems with his family.
We know that in the case of Dungeons and Dragons, upwards of three million kids play the game with no apparent serious consequence,
that for them it exercises the imagination and is just good fun.
But there are those who are afraid that impressionable, vulnerable kids could be harmed by it.
Dr. Thomas Rodecki is a psychiatrist who teaches at the University of Illinois Medical School
and who is chairman of the National Coalition on Television Violence.
He has been studying the game for several years and says there are 28 deaths related to Dungeons and Dragons in the last five years.
In some of those it was clearly the decisive element, in other ones it was just a major element
in the thinking of the people at the time they committed suicide or murder.
It's not coincidence, not when you have careful documentation, you have careful notes, you have eyewitnesses.
For instance, one case the parents actually saw their child summon Dungeons and Dragons demons into his room before he killed himself.
Another case, the kid had thought he had the ability to astral travel coming from the Dungeons and Dragons game,
that he could leave his body and come back.
And he had rigged it up just according to the rule book so he could do it.
He was surrounded by his materials and put a bullet in his head so he could leave his body and he's never come back.
This is make-believe and nobody's murdered and there's no violence there.
I mean, to use an analogy with another game, who is bankrupted by losing a game of Monopoly?
Nobody is because the money is make-believe, the property is make-believe, and the bankruptcy is make-believe.
It is not like Monopoly, there is no board.
It is role-playing which is typically used for behavior modification.
If you are using behavior modification and you are doing violent roles and you're doing negative roles continuously,
these children not only begin to have violent dreams or violent thoughts or negative depressing type things,
they become very much a part of this character.
Melissa claimed that D&D had become more than just a game for her brother, Bink.
Someone threatened you?
Yes.
My brother threatened to kill me one time.
We found out later that he threatened to kill her and she told us that he was playing the game.
She knew it and she was actually scared for her life.
I just also want to make a note.
It is not uncommon for children, especially siblings, to say, if you tell mom and dad about this, I will kill you.
I believe I said that to you every single day.
Yes, and I have survived so far as far as I know.
Just to give you an idea of what that time was like, and that wasn't just some small town investigation, that was 60 minutes.
That went out to everyone in the US in 1985.
I mean, media is a fun thing. They really put it in your head for something.
And dare I say there were almost as many people watching that episode of 60 minutes as there were Dungeons & Dragons players in the United States that year.
And likely more people committed suicide that have the connecting factor that they watched 60 minutes.
There's probably more.
Oh my gosh, amazing how they can make it work for them.
Yeah, a few more that they talk about a lot.
In 1985, John Quigley of Lakeview Full Gospel Fellowship spoke for many opponents when he claimed the game is an occult tool that opens up young people to influence or possession by demons.
So, of course, bothered about Dungeons & Dragons bad.
Historically, Delta Major flowed in Dungeons & Dragons and prevented it from going on to a tabletop game that would be played by tens of millions of people worldwide for the next decades and decades and decades.
And would drive Gary Gagex into poverty and suicide, of course, just kidding.
Of course, D&D survives in 1994 bad dissolves mostly due to Pat pulling dying of the real Satan cancer lung cancer and having no real driver from that point.
And just to give you an idea, studies from the American Association of Suicidology at the US Center for Disease Control and Health and Welfare Canada all found there's no causal link between D&D and suicide.
In fact, if you play Dungeons & Dragons, you actually have a lower suicide rate than the rest of the population.
Oh, it's not listed on their website that that's the number one cause of suicide?
No, in fact, it's actually something that can be used to both foster a better dealing with other people, reasoning skills, less aggression, community.
But that, of course, means it's just generally accepted with the population as a whole.
No, in fact, while I was at law school, I was told by at least one individual that it's surprising you play D&D with its connections to Satanism, which I found hilarious because that was in 2014.
And as most recent as 2010, the United States Court of Appeal for the Seventh Circuit upheld a ban on playing Dungeons & Dragons by the Wapin Correctional Facility.
Captain Muraski, the Institute's gang specialist, testified that D&D can, quote, foster an inmate's obsession with escaping from real life correctional environment and fostering hostility, violence and escape behavior.
Interesting. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, I can't believe that. I don't know.
But you know what else is crazy? Now what? How they treated music in the 1980s, which I think this is going to be fun.
Yeah, 1970s, of course, give rise to what's commonly referred to as heavy metal music.
Black Sabbath being the first heavy metal band and Ozzy Osbourne being associated with it.
And that giving rise to what the 1980s really being the Zenith 4 metal to spawn.
However, that led to a fear that heavy metal contained lyrics which encouraged people to do bad things.
And it was never more prevalent than in 1985 when 20 year old James Vance tried to sue Judas Priest.
After a night of partying, James Vance and his friend, 18 year old Raymond Belknap, headed to a local playground and shot themselves.
Belknap wouldn't survive the incident, but Vance would.
And he went on to file a lawsuit against Judas Priest as he claimed the subliminal messaging in their stained glass album drove them to this act.
Oh, Lord.
Ultimately, the band and their record label would avoid any legal responsibility for the tragedy,
but not even empirical evidence was enough to convince concerned parents and moral campaigners that subliminal messages promoting suicide and devil worship weren't possessing the heavy metal records kids were listening to.
In 1985, a committee known as the Parents Music Resource Center, spearheaded by Tipper Gore, made up a playlist of songs they deemed inappropriate for consumption.
The list of the Filthy 15 was used to serve as a template for proposed legislation regarding how albums should be rated,
suggesting that they could come with an extra warning if the contents pertain to sex, violence, drugs, alcohol, or the occult.
And I just love this is their list of 15 songs, just some of the songs.
Probably a pretty good list of like some really good songs.
Judas Priest, Eat Me Alive, Motley Crue's Bastard, ACDC's Let Me Put My Love Into You, Twisted Sisters, We're Not Gonna Take It, Wasps, Animal,
Deaf Lefford's High and Dry, Merciful Fates, Into the Coven, Black Sabbath's Thrashed, and Venoms Possessed.
And this came from a heavy metal blog that I was reading.
They said, it's funny, they have ACDC on there and it's Let Me Put My Love Into You when they also have Highway to Hell and Hell's Bells.
And they're just like, no, those are good.
Those are about driving and Christian bells.
There's only room for 15.
If there's anything more scary than Satan and the occult, it's sex.
So Let Me Put My Love Into You is the one that makes the list.
Exactly.
So anyhow, this group actually gets before the Senate of the United States.
Like the high is basically one of the biggest groups in the country that can enact legislation.
PMRC gets before the Senate and they have a hearing.
They invite people from both sides of this argument to come speak in front of the Senate members and give their side of the story, which leads to one of the funniest sites you'll ever see.
And it is, of course, Dee Snider, who is famous from being the lead singer of Twisted Sister, presenting before the Senate.
Mr. Snider, thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me here.
I don't know if it's morning or afternoon. I'll say both good morning and good afternoon.
My name is Dee Snider. That's S-N-I-D-E-R.
I have been asked to come here to present my views on, quote, the subject of the content of certain sound recordings and suggestions that recording packages be labeled to provide a warning to prospective purchasers of sexually explicit or other potentially offensive content, unquote.
Before I get into that, I'd like to tell the committee a little bit about myself.
I'm 30 years old. I'm married. I have a three-year-old son.
I was born and raised a Christian, and I still adhere to those principles.
Believe it or not, I do not drink, I do not smoke, and I do not do drugs.
I do play in and write the songs for a rock and roll band named Twisted Sister that is classified as heavy metal.
And I pride myself on writing songs that are consistent with my above-mentioned beliefs.
There are many facets to this complex issue, and time does not permit me to address all of them.
However, my feelings are expressed for the most part by the August 8, 1985 letter to the Parents Music Resource Center from Mr. Stanley Gordikoff, president of the Recording Industry Association of America.
This letter was a formal response to the PMRC's petition of the RIAA.
The only part of this document I do not support is Mr. Gordikoff's unnecessary and unfortunate decision to agree to a so-called generic label on some selected records.
In my opinion, this should be retracted.
Since I seem to be the only person addressing this committee today who has been a direct target of accusations from the presumably responsible PMRC,
I would like to use this occasion to speak on a more personal note and show just how unfair the whole concept of lyrical interpretation and judgment can be,
and how many times this can amount to little more than character assassination.
I have taken the liberty of distributing to you material and lyrics pertaining to these accusations.
There were three attacks in particular which I would like to address.
Accusation number one.
This attack was contained in an article written by Tipper Gore, which was given the form of a full page in my hometown newspaper on Long Island.
In this article, Ms. Gore claimed that one of my songs, Under the Blade, had lyrics encouraging sadomasochism, bondage, and rape.
The lyrics she quoted have absolutely nothing to do with these topics.
On the contrary, the words in question are about surgery and the fear that it instills in people.
Furthermore, the reader of this article is led to believe that the three lines she quotes go together in the song,
when as you can see from reading the lyrics, the first two lines she cites are an edited phrase from the second verse,
and the third line is a misquote of a line from the chorus.
That the writer could misquote me is curious, since we make it a point to print all our lyrics on the inner sleeve of every album.
As the creator of Under the Blade, I can say categorically that the only sadomasochism, bondage, and rape in this song is in the mind of Ms. Gore.
Accusation number two.
The PMRC has made public a list of 15 of what they feel are some of the most blatant songs lyrically.
On this list is our song, We're Not Gonna Take It, upon which has been stowed a V rating indicating violent lyrical content.
You'll note from the lyrics before you that there is absolutely no violence of any type, either sung about or implied anywhere in the song.
Now, it strikes me that the PMRC may have confused our video presentation for this song with the meaning of the lyrics.
It's no secret that videos often depict storylines completely unrelated to the lyrics of the song they accompany.
The video for We're Not Gonna Take It was simply meant to be a cartoon with human actors playing variations on the Roadrunner-Wile-E-Coyote theme.
Each stunt was selected from my extensive personal collection of cartoons.
You'll note when you watch the entire video that after each catastrophe our villain suffers through, in the next sequence he reappears unharmed by any previous attack, no worse for the wear.
By the way, I'm very pleased to note that the United Way of America has been granted a request to use portions of our We're Not Gonna Take It video in a program they are producing on the subject of the changing American family.
They asked for it because of its, yeah, they asked for it because of its quote, lighthearted way of talking about communicating with teenagers, unquote.
It is gratifying that an organization as respected as the United Way of America appreciates where we're coming from.
I've included a copy of the United Way's request as part of my written testimony. Thank you, United Way.
Certainly did a good job on himself there.
Especially being the only guy in that entire group not wearing a suit and just showing up and just like nothing but the best of 80s hair metal paraphernalia.
Also appearing in the PMRC hearing at the Senate was Frank Zappa, who unfortunately did show up in a suit and tie.
Strangely enough, John Denver, of all people, I didn't watch it. I just saw it on the side while I was looking at these videos that John Denver said some things to. No idea if he was for or against.
My guess is his music was seen as wholesome, so he would be okay with that.
Oh yeah, he didn't make the list.
So that's his response to it. There are some other responses to as well to the declarations of the Filthy 15, King Diamond, who was the personification of satanic metal in the 1980s and was a card carrying member of the Church of Satan.
He specifically wrote music with lyrics heavily influenced by horror films and the occult. So were Venoms, another band in there.
Neither artist took the PMRC seriously and they said they appreciated the publicity and Venom jokingly said that they weren't looking hard enough if they thought that that was the most offensive Venom song out there that made the Filthy 15.
And in fact, a quote from Sam Dunn of Venom in a documentary in 2012, that just sounds lazy to me. That sounds like nobody's listening enough to Venom to find the worst song.
But in the end, what ends up coming from this actually is the parental advisory stickers that are on many albums that most teenagers want to buy.
Oh really? Yeah, that's where they come from. That's disappointing.
That's the end really, or at least where we get to with Satanic Panic in the music industry from that.
Literally, the parental advisory sticker is still found everywhere on albums. That just means it's a good one.
Although nobody buys albums anymore and I don't know if they have that sticker on Spotify, do they?
I don't know because we put explicit on ours, so it probably does somewhere.
Yeah, but that's like a self-reporting thing. Like we can't slap, we could slap that sticker on or we couldn't.
Yeah, we could take it off too. I don't know. Not that I've ever paid attention to, but it's not like I'm out there looking for it.
By the mid 1980s, Satanic Panic had reached its peak.
There were classes aimed at law enforcement authorities and taught mostly by other cops, therapists, and preachers, and by born again Christians claiming to be former high priests or escapees from unspeakably sadistic ritual torture cults.
This does end up coming to an end in about 1992 when the Justice Department thoroughly debunks the myth of Satanic ritual abuse cults.
Oh my God.
Yeah, they come out with a very thorough statement and explanation about basically everything that had come out in the 1980s.
Thankfully, we grew up in that era and got to do some of these terrible things that apparently are Satanic ritual abuses.
Thank God.
But it didn't necessarily go away with it.
Though the accusation of satanically motivated child abuse rituals had pretty much died by the mid 1990s, you can find videos like the one that Chelsea's now going to show us that came from 1994.
The guy with the good hair.
There's two different communities that use this park.
One is the pagan or occultic community and the other community is, of course, the homosexual community.
Interestingly enough, they go hand in hand.
And so, well, see, here you go.
Upon entering the park, I mean, you can see they've already got started.
Okay.
This is a pentacle.
Interesting thing about this pentacle is it's an upright pentacle.
This is not a satanic pentacle.
Now, the reason why this pentacle would not be considered satanic is because it has one point up.
Now, Satanists would reverse this star or pentacle, as it's called, and have two points up.
Those represent the horns of Baphomet and or the horns of Satan.
I just want to make a note that I really think this guy spray painted this.
I was just going to accuse him of that as well.
But he didn't have the guts to do it upside down in fear of summoning Satan.
I feel like that as well.
That was the distinct feeling I got from it.
And plus, he's calling it a pentacle.
Is that what you call it?
I call it a pentagram, but maybe I don't know.
This is 1994.
They call what he's got right there a good haircut, apparently, in 1997.
Yeah, it is. Look at that.
Party in the back is hanging on by a thread.
Yeah, but now right over here, I can see in a tree here, there's a there's a inverted cross.
Now, this is satanic.
This is a very generic symbol.
Let me see.
Well, it's actually fairly fresh, too.
He fucking did it.
He did do it.
We just missed the bastard.
He says with white paint on his hands.
So he spray paints the first pentacle that's right side up and then goes to the other tree and does an upside down cross.
Like who in their right mind would actually go to a park and do one that's not Satan and then go to the other tree and do an upside down cross?
Well, no, funny enough, technically, an upside down cross is also a very Christian symbol.
Right. You've told me about this.
Yeah. And it's on the Pope's.
I believe it's on the Pope's throne.
I might have to correct that if I'm wrong, but it's the symbol of Pope Peter, the first pope, because when he was murdered or sorry, sentenced to death,
he was sentenced to crucifixion, but he did not feel that he was deserving of the same death as Jesus.
So he was crucified upside down, thereby having the symbol of the upside down cross.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And then it got, you know, really bastardized.
But at the same time, it's not technically.
Yeah, I feel like this is probably where it originated.
Fucking haircut.
See, he's making shit up.
It's fresh.
Fresh off this.
That is.
Those are the dominant colors of the satanic movement.
And basically, well, OK, over here.
See, here you go.
This.
I'll see.
This is this is what I'm talking about.
OK, what you're looking at here is called Voodoo Veevee.
This is kind of like a coat of arms, if you will, for the demonic.
And the implications of this is definitely satanic.
When I showed you earlier the one pointed up star as we first came in and I told you that, you know, the implications of Satanism are two points up.
As you can see, there are two points up here.
And someone has made it very clear they were probably worshipping set because it says set here.
So it's pretty obvious.
Now, this here, if I'm not mistaken, looks like a money Veevee.
So I wouldn't be surprised if they were here in the park doing a money ritual.
And this is very typical.
This is the kind of thing that you can expect to see not only on crime scenes, but in areas where occultists hang out like gang graffiti.
Occultists kind of communicate to each other through their graffiti on the rise.
There up here is is a very flat area, concrete area that is used often.
I even frequented it for ritual practice.
Well, there you go.
You can see from here 666 and an eye.
Keep in mind, again, this is to train police officers.
This?
Yeah, to watch out for satanic rituals.
It's the same white fucking paint.
Yeah.
I'm actually quite proud of this one.
Does that say 666?
You can end it there.
This is a different world, is it not?
Oh, yeah.
Like, and you just know, I mean, this is what is this?
This is the 80s.
No, this is 94.
90s.
I was just going to say this almost seems like it's coming from the same timeframe of like reefer madness.
When you can say anything against it and everyone's like, this is outrageous.
I can't believe this is going on with their white fresh paint.
This guy just wouldn't he be if it wasn't him that did it, you can bet your ass that he would have been terrified to be in that part.
Oh, God, yeah.
You know what?
I bet he took three karate classes and he's good to go.
Like, this is the 90s.
Like, he's the peak of ninja culture.
So terrified of satanic panic that he would have not gone any further if it wasn't him that did all this.
But yeah, this dies down in the early 90s.
That's a remnant of it.
So no harm, no foul satanic panic dies out.
Right. Well, we're going to go over a few stories, but that's not necessarily the case.
In 1984, Cuban immigrant Frank Fuster was accused, along with his undocumented wife of molesting eight children.
Despite coercive interview sessions and a lack of physical evidence, Fuster was sentenced to six consecutive life terms or a minimum of one hundred and sixty five years in prison.
As of 2021, he has been in prison for 35 years and he will not be eligible for parole until 2134.
He reportedly had no legal representation.
North Carolina inmate Patrick figured right now, 72 still serving time for a 1992 conviction due to coerced allegations of ritualistic abuse.
And Joseph Allen, 63, has been serving time in Ohio since 1994 for a highly bizarre case in which he was convicted of ritualistic child abuse, along with another woman, even though the two had never even met.
However, she was later exonerated.
And in two out of three of those, you just said coerced.
Yeah, one Florida school principal spent 21 years in prison after being convicted on a false satanic ritualistic assault claim.
He was released at the age of 80 after and ordered to move to another country in El Paso.
Two preschool owners each spent 21 years in prison.
And in 1984, three members of the Amarope family of Maldon, Massachusetts, were convicted of false child molestation charges following yet another pattern of false memory coercion from children.
Two of the defendants spent 10 and 20 years in prison before being paroled in 1999 and 2004 respectively.
The third defendant died of cancer in prison before her conviction could be overturned.
She was exonerated in 1998, the year she died.
Year after she died, sorry.
What a terrifying time to be alive.
In 1997, four lesbian women who became known as the San Antonio Four were targeted and wrongly convicted for child molestation claims.
Their trial played out against the resurgence of satanic panic tied to homophobia in a conservative state, and their fight for justice lasted nearly two decades.
All four women spent 15 years in prison before having convictions overturned in 2015.
Wow.
And ultimately expunged in 2018.
And one of the most famous, the West Memphis Three.
In 1993, three teenagers in West Memphis, Arkansas were accused and convicted of sexual assaults and murders of three young boys.
The teens were accused and primarily based on hearsay surrounding their quote, goth lifestyle and rumors that they worship Satan, despite a lack of any physical evidence.
There's a documentary on this called Paradise Lost and it publicized the case.
And because of that, the three men were ultimately freed in 2011 after new DNA evidence showed them to have no connection to the killing at all.
Oh my God.
They entered Al for please, which commuted their sentences to time serve in 18 years in prison each being released in 2011.
It was a wild time for sure.
A wild time so much in fact that there is one thing I want to talk about that is the finders cult.
But we're out of time and it's going to have to be saved for another Halloween.
I'm going to add it right now.
Okay, good. Because what if it wasn't all just media frenzy?
What if there was something to these child abuse and SRA claims?
Now we're going to have to wait on that one until another time.
For now, I have been Taylor here with Chelsea.
We are Journey to the Fringe.
Thank you all for listening and we will see you next week.
Bye.
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