1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,000
This episode contains discussion of alleged child molestation and suicide. Viewer discretion is advised.

2
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,800
This week I'm gonna start with the topic that I'm all sure you're all thinking of.

3
00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,400
Especially when this came out three weeks after we talked about it.

4
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,000
Well there's probably still people thinking about it.

5
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:22,000
And yeah, so by the time this makes it out the Queen's death will be really old news.

6
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:28,600
That we would cover that. And what we will cover however is what the Queen's death means for British Andy.

7
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,400
Which I'm sure nobody is familiar with. So even if it's three weeks later.

8
00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,800
What's this big news by that time? You never know.

9
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,000
British Andy by that point has probably done something to make himself look like an ass.

10
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,000
So I would not be surprised if he's in the news for something.

11
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,600
Probably. He really does a lot of ass like things.

12
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,600
It's not easy to find. It's not like headlines like the other.

13
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,600
It's not going to be like his mom can just cancel his birthdays in the future now.

14
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,400
Because his mom's dead.

15
00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:01,600
Yeah, but she really liked him apparently. So this article I'm using is from the Daily Mail.

16
00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:06,400
However a lot of news publications were putting out the same kind of material.

17
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,200
And it's entitled What Now for Prince Andrew After the Queen's Death.

18
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,200
Thank you for asking the important questions Daily Mail.

19
00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,000
Specifically on this opener.

20
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,800
So why are we talking about British Andy and where does he come from?

21
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:24,200
Well we covered him in an opener on oh my god do you know what what opener we use this on?

22
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:25,400
What episode?

23
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,600
It's gonna go with Dinosaur Ghost.

24
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,200
It was. Yeah.

25
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,200
No way!

26
00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,400
It was.

27
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:39,600
It was. And the only reason I know that is because I gave my phone to this little child last night.

28
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,600
And it was queued up on the radio when I turned on my car and it switched to Bluetooth this morning.

29
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,600
And it was talking about British Andy.

30
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,000
Yeah, we have a little child who really believes in us and our affinity with Dinosaur Ghost.

31
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,200
And that we can really make it work.

32
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:53,000
It's his favorite episode.

33
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,200
Which we really need you the listener to agree with him on.

34
00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,200
It's a good episode.

35
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,800
I really think it was a good episode.

36
00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,200
Go back listen to Dinosaur Ghost in its entirety.

37
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,000
Not only for the opener because it's a good episode about Dinosaur Ghost.

38
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:13,200
Anyhow, Fish Andy is not very well liked and was stripped of his honorary military roles.

39
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,000
Fired from official duties.

40
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:22,600
His title was revoked amid the US civil case brought against him by Virginia Jouffre and his involvement with Jeffrey Epstein.

41
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,400
Last time he was seen at any royal event was March 29, 2022.

42
00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:33,000
Where he escorted his mother into Westminster Abbey for the service of his father Prince Philip.

43
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,200
And people still question why he was there and talking to the press.

44
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,000
They're pretty pissed.

45
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,000
They don't like regular person Andy.

46
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,200
He had no place at the Queen's Platinum Jubilee in June and other things.

47
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:44,600
I'm not going to go through all this.

48
00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,400
Some places he did have a place, however, didn't show.

49
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,600
He said he had COVID and a million other excuses for other things.

50
00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:52,800
Oh, I can't sweat.

51
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,400
Oh, that's why you're not there.

52
00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,800
And there's that little controversy as well.

53
00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,400
But to be frank, who cares where he wasn't allowed?

54
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,600
The point is he's not really allowed anywhere really.

55
00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:04,600
Nobody likes him.

56
00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:10,200
Now with all that aside, it is said that the Queen really had a soft spot for regular person Andy.

57
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,000
She so lovingly called him, of course.

58
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:19,200
And she took comfort in those around her that his civil sex case was settled outside of court in New York.

59
00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:24,000
He bigot relatively down low for the monarchy, especially in the year of her Platinum Jubilee.

60
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,000
Royal author Phil Dampier told Mail Online, quote,

61
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:33,000
Prince Andrew will be devastated by the Queen's death because he was always her favorite child.

62
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,800
Although he was in disgrace because of his involvement with the Jeffrey Epstein scandal,

63
00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,600
he still saw more of her in private than his siblings.

64
00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,000
Living at Royal Lodge was just a short distance from Windsor Castle.

65
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,600
He would see her on an almost daily basis.

66
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:54,000
He supported her when she was most frail and was always there for her in person or on the phone whenever she needed him.

67
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,800
Or if he needed 20 bucks.

68
00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,200
Yeah, most importantly of all, because he just kind of lives off her.

69
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:01,400
He seems like the type.

70
00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:07,800
Yeah, there is an unbreakable bond between them and she must have been devastated when his name was dragged through the mud.

71
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,600
He only had himself to blame, of course, and it's difficult to feel sympathy for him.

72
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,600
But as a mother, she always supported him.

73
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,600
So with all that being said, obviously, the Queen really looked out for him.

74
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,800
Obviously, she kept him salaried and housed in a Crown estate,

75
00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,400
paying some of, if not all of the 13 million paid to settle the lawsuit.

76
00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,600
But what happens with King Charles III?

77
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:31,600
That still sounds wrong.

78
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:32,200
Yeah.

79
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:37,200
Surely he does not have the same soft spot for regular Andy as his mother did.

80
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:43,200
It's said that both Charles and William present a united front of an attitude towards Andy.

81
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,400
That of regret and consternation.

82
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,200
And this may offer some indication of the road ahead for Andy.

83
00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:58,600
Herald resorts that Charles and William are expected to want the aftermath of the Queen's funeral to signal the end of Andrew's public appearances.

84
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:03,200
While the monarch can't take away his dukedom, only the Parliament can.

85
00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,600
Charles, however, can decide where his relatives get to live and the salary they get.

86
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:14,400
And while we're talking about that, Andrew signed a 75 year lease on the Royal Lodge in 2003

87
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:20,400
and would probably have to be repaid for the millions of pounds he put into renovations if he were to be evicted.

88
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:27,400
However, it seems before her death, the Queen was supplying the bulk of Andrew's mysterious income from her private duchy.

89
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,600
Never heard of that word for money.

90
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,600
Of Lancaster income.

91
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,000
So the Queen was an enabler.

92
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:40,400
The most probable outcome for the Duke would appear to be life in the Royal Wilderness, as they call it.

93
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:45,400
Certain Royal experts have speculated that casting Andrew out would do more harm than good,

94
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,800
allowing him to embark on projects like writing a book and going back on TV.

95
00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,000
He was on TV.

96
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:52,800
Yeah, that one time where he sweat.

97
00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,800
But yeah, that was horrible.

98
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,600
I would want to keep him away from that too.

99
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:03,800
So keeping him quiet and out of the public eye likely works out better for them than setting him loose into the world.

100
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,000
As such, he might be staying right where he was.

101
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,800
And just one more thing to mention.

102
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:17,400
An incredible amount of people wanting to know what is going to happen to the Queen's precious corgis.

103
00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:25,200
And just recently we have found out that they have been left to regular person Andy and his ex-wife for some reason.

104
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:32,600
Not sure why the ex-wife and him are going to share the corgis, but they were left to him and now he's going to take care of them.

105
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,600
So there's a huge update on regular person Andy on the opener on this episode.

106
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,800
Yeah, my guess is the Queen always wanted that relationship to work.

107
00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:49,200
So she's concocted a scheme from beyond the grave to bring them together through high antics and the style of a 1980s comedy.

108
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,600
Oh yeah, there's no doubt about that.

109
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:51,800
The Queen's corgis.

110
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,800
You'll see it on like PBS in like three years.

111
00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:55,800
Yes.

112
00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:02,400
With regular person Andy played by, in fact, regular person Andy because he really needs the cash at this point.

113
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,400
It would be $30 bucks.

114
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:06,400
They're paying people.

115
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:09,600
That's our update.

116
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,800
There's probably not going to be any more to come because no one's going to want to talk about now that the Queen's out.

117
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,400
He's not going to be around anymore.

118
00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,200
I suspect that's it.

119
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:18,600
Okay.

120
00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:40,800
With that, let's get into this episode from the unexplained to the mundane.

121
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:53,400
Join us on our journey to the fringe.

122
00:07:53,400 --> 00:08:05,200
Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, where we put the fringe in Satan, which goes to show you how many silent letters are in fact in the word Satan.

123
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,600
I was just going to say I'm pronouncing it wrong.

124
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:23,600
We are your impeccable spelling host, podcast host, Taylor and Chelsea here today, starting off the most eerie of months with a little bit of capers and Halloween know-how to bring us into a festive spirit.

125
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:31,400
We're going to be kicking off this month, slowly progressing to earier and earier topics to bring us into Halloween.

126
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:49,200
And today we are going to start off this festive season with, of course, a little look at Satan, more specifically his cults on earth or more specifically how there were actually not that many of them on earth in the 1980s and people made a big fuss about them, aka the satanic panic.

127
00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,600
Did we actually just need more to fix it?

128
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:52,400
We could have.

129
00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:57,400
In fact, having satanic cults on earth at that time actually would have helped a lot.

130
00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:58,600
Okay.

131
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:05,600
Purely anecdotal answer to that story, but please stay tuned to actually see the rest of the story.

132
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,200
Now, I'm sure you're all familiar with the phrase satanic panic.

133
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:10,800
Chelsea, have you heard that before?

134
00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,600
Yes, I've heard it many a time.

135
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,200
Do you actually know what that's referring to?

136
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:24,800
Yeah, it's like people being scared of satanic cults in mundane things, like Dungeons and Dragons and stuff like that.

137
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,000
Okay, good. Perfect.

138
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:33,200
Everyone was panicking about Satan running amok, challenging them to jumping competitions in Newfoundland.

139
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:52,600
Anyhow, when we're talking about satanic panic, generally what people will be specifically talking about is an era that occurred in the 1980s, which a lot of allegations by several groups were thrust forth on different parts of society.

140
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,400
Satanic worship and satanic cults and abuse towards children.

141
00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,000
I'm going to be focusing on three parts today.

142
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,800
Going to be daycares, Dungeons and Dragons and music.

143
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,200
He cares.

144
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:07,800
That's actually the part I'm going to start with.

145
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:13,600
Now, why exactly did this pop up in such a weird time in the 1980s?

146
00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,800
Well, it actually seems like a fairly perfect culmination of several factors.

147
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,400
The Wikipedia page on this gives five factors.

148
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,200
I believe there are a few more outside of this.

149
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:32,400
It's the idea of the establishment of the fundamentalist Christianity and the founding of political activism of the religious organizations, which was named the moral majority.

150
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:38,400
The rise of anti-cult movements, which accused abusive cults of kidnapping and brainwashing children and teens.

151
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:43,200
The appearance of the Church of Satan in the 1960s and really rising to prominence in the 80s.

152
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:49,000
And other explicitly satanist groups, which added a kernel of truth to the existence of satanic cults.

153
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:57,800
The development of social work or child protection fields and its struggle to have child sexual abuse recognized as a social problem and a serious crime.

154
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:03,800
And of course, the popularization of post-traumatic stress disorder, repressed memories and corresponding survivor movement.

155
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,200
Some of those are kind of weird.

156
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:06,800
Yeah, it's going to come up very early.

157
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:17,200
The next one that I've also heard added to this as well, the movement to a dual income household and therefore having people have to watch your children who aren't you.

158
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,600
Which has really pushed towards daycares, other groups having to be in charge of your children.

159
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,400
And from a Christian standpoint, having fear about who's influencing your children.

160
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:33,200
Now, this all comes to a head with a book called Michelle Remembers, which was published in 1980.

161
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,200
It was written by a Canadian, Michelle Smith, as well as her husband, Lawrence Pazder.

162
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,600
Pazder gets really famous on this book.

163
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:47,800
It was written in the form of an autobiography presenting the first modern claim that child abuse was linked to satanic ritual.

164
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:54,600
Pazder was also responsible for coining the term ritual abuse, as we see comes up a lot in these stories.

165
00:11:54,600 --> 00:12:02,800
From this book, Pazder developed a higher media profile and gave lectures and training on satanic ritual abuse to law enforcement.

166
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:09,600
And by September of 1990, had acted as a consultant on more than 1000 satanic ritual abuse cases.

167
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:15,600
Prosecutors would also use Michelle Remembers as a guide when preparing cases against alleged satanists.

168
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:16,600
What?

169
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,600
Yeah, this book, and like I did not read this book.

170
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,400
I have it on hold at the library.

171
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,000
I want to read it, but it's just it's getting into the high demand season.

172
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,000
So I don't get it.

173
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,600
No, but I can give you a little bit of a synopsis.

174
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:34,600
Michelle, which is Michelle of the Michelle Remembers, documents her repressed in quotation marks,

175
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,600
memories that were covered during a therapy session under Panzer.

176
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:45,400
Most of the stories involve scenarios that wouldn't feel out of place in a B grade exploitation movie of the time period.

177
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:50,600
And there are even cameos from Jesus, the Virgin Mary and Archangel Michael,

178
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,200
who all appear to save Michelle from a ritual attended by Satan himself.

179
00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:01,200
The Holy Trinity then erases her terrible memories and scars until the time was right.

180
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,000
This is literally the book.

181
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:10,400
She was involved in satanic cults, rituals, and Jesus came and saved her and then repressed the memory for her because it's too violent.

182
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,400
And her husband, who is a psychologist, helped her get those memories back.

183
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,000
Oh, because sounds like she really needed them.

184
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,000
Yeah, apparently.

185
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,600
Especially if Jesus was coming to protect her from them.

186
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,800
And this idea of repressed memories like this ends up being huge in this movement.

187
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:34,000
In 2016, Michelle Remembers will be dismissed as absolutely fiction and horror pulp novel full of cheap schlock and outlandish fantasies.

188
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:43,200
But when it was first coming out, it was accepted as a clinical fact and used as guide by law enforcement, courts, medical professionals and concerned citizens.

189
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,000
That's so messed up that they're using it in court and as like law enforcement.

190
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,200
They weren't even just using that in court.

191
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:57,000
The guy who wrote it became the expert witness you would bring in on cases to interview people who are pretty messed up.

192
00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,200
And then it gets like debunked to speak.

193
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,600
It was right from the bat, but there was a set of people who were like, oh, no, there's there's Satan out there.

194
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,200
Oh, Lordy, he's out there.

195
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,000
Oh, my God.

196
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:10,000
That's messed up.

197
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:10,400
Okay.

198
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:17,200
But in the wake of this book coming out and this whole idea, we're going to start with what happens in daycares and we're going to look at it.

199
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:24,200
This case gives you a perfect example of exactly what was brought forth from people.

200
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:25,600
It's called the McMartin trial.

201
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:26,800
And here's the scenario.

202
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,000
It's 1983.

203
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:33,800
Judy Johnson, mother of one child living in Manhattan Beach, California.

204
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,400
Child is in preschool.

205
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:45,800
He's a young student and she goes to the police and reports that her son has been sodomized both by her estranged husband and also by a McMartin teacher by the name of Ray Buckey.

206
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,200
McMartin is the daycare he's going to.

207
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:49,600
Now, why does she say that?

208
00:14:49,600 --> 00:15:06,000
Johnson's belief that her son had been abused began when her son had painful bowel movements, you know, because nothing causes painful bowel movements other than children being sodomized, not a poor low fiber diet that Chelsea can surely attest to in certain scenarios.

209
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,400
Not myself.

210
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:08,800
I eat tons of fiber.

211
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,000
In case anyone's curious.

212
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:21,000
Some sources state that at the time Johnson's son denied her suggestion that this preschool teacher had molested him, whereas some also confirm it that he did say it.

213
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,600
But at the end of the day, that's not really what matters.

214
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,800
What matters is that this kid couldn't shit.

215
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,200
So his mom said, oh, you must have been sodomized by this teacher.

216
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,400
That's pretty messed up that that was the first thing she thought of to you.

217
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:32,600
Yeah.

218
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:41,800
And then Johnson also made several accusations, including that people to daycare had sexual encounters with animals that quote Peggy drilled a child under the arm.

219
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,400
And quote, Ray flew in the air.

220
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,800
And sorry, when I say Johnson, that's the child.

221
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:52,600
Like this is what he told the parents once they started like questioning him about the satanic stuff happening at this daycare.

222
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:53,600
I'm going to repeat that.

223
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,200
Yeah.

224
00:15:54,200 --> 00:16:01,400
The daycare had sexual encounters with animals that Peggy drilled a child under the arms and that Ray flew in the air.

225
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:12,200
Initially, Ray Buckey was questioned but was not prosecuted due to a lack of evidence and the police sent home a form letter to the students that attend this preschool. It's about 200 in total.

226
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,200
And this is what the letter said.

227
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:26,400
Dear parent, this department is conducting a criminal investigation involving child molestation against Ray Buckey, an employee of Virginia McMartin's preschool, who was arrested on September 7th, 1983 by this department.

228
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:36,000
The following procedure is obviously an unpleasant one, but to protect the rights of your children, as well as the rights of the accused, this inquiry is necessary for a complete investigation.

229
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,800
Records indicate that your child has been or is currently a student at the preschool.

230
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,800
We are asking your assistance in this continuing investigation.

231
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:48,400
Please question your child to see if he or she has been witness to any crime or if he or she has been a victim.

232
00:16:48,400 --> 00:17:00,200
Our investigation indicates that possible criminal acts include oral sex, fondling of genitals, buttock or chest area, and sodomy, possibly committed under the pretense of taking a child's temperature.

233
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,200
Also, photos may have been taken of children without their clothing.

234
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:15,200
Any information from your child regarding having ever observed Ray Buckey to leave a classroom alone with the child during any nap period or if they have ever observed Ray Buckey tie up a child is important.

235
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:23,000
Please complete this enclosed information form and return it to this department in the enclosed stamped return envelope as soon as possible.

236
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,600
We will contact you if circumstances dictate the same.

237
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:34,000
We ask you please keep this investigation strictly confidential because of the nature of the charges and highly emotional effects it could have on our community.

238
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:41,600
Please do not discuss this investigation with anyone outside your immediate family and do not contact or discuss the investigation with Raymond Buckey.

239
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,200
Any member of the accused defendant's family or employees connected with McMartin Preschool.

240
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:54,000
And in all caps at the very bottom, there is no evidence to indicate that the management of Virginia McMartin Preschool had any knowledge of the situation.

241
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,200
No detrimental information concerning the operation of the school has been discovered during the investigation.

242
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,400
Also, no other employee in the school is under investigation for any criminal act.

243
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:13,000
So kind of messed up for a police department to just say like, oh, we don't really have anything to hold you on. So we're just going to like see if anybody else has said anything at all.

244
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,800
There's a lot of things I noticed in there.

245
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,400
First of all, that they're just sending a letter that says please respond and ask your child.

246
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,600
They're not getting like child psychologists with something that has to do with sexual assault.

247
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,000
Oh, they haven't gotten child psychologists yet.

248
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,800
They're just like straight out accusing this guy.

249
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,000
Yeah. Hey, ask your kid if Ray ever performed oral sex on your child.

250
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,800
Like that's kind of messed up.

251
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,000
Preschooler that like if you say something, they'll be like, yeah, totally.

252
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,000
Not just saying like, hey, can you ask your kids if anything weird happens at school?

253
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,600
Like, I think that's literally all you need to do.

254
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,200
Yeah, pretty much anything you feel uncomfortable with.

255
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:56,200
But yeah, that's that's the grips that this satanic panic had had on society at that time.

256
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:57,000
That's so weird.

257
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,000
Or at least this police station, which pushed them to do that.

258
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,600
With that, they got responses from parents and children.

259
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,400
Some of the accusations they describe are less than normal.

260
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,200
Quite a few of them overlap with accusations that mirror the emerging satanic ritual abuse panic.

261
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,200
Now, in the stories that they hear, it is alleged that in addition to having being sexually abused,

262
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,400
some of these children had seen witches flying over top of the building.

263
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,600
Some of them had traveled in a hot air balloon.

264
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:24,800
The kids.

265
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,600
Yeah. And some were taken through an underground set of tunnels.

266
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,200
This I was just going to say this.

267
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,800
Imagine the stories you get from preschoolers when you say if anything weird is happening.

268
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,200
Because or, you know, Satan related.

269
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,000
Yeah, not even Satan related.

270
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,200
Remember that book you had from kindergarten?

271
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,800
You just question all the kids and you just sit and laugh at how crazy.

272
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,600
Oh, yeah. What do you want to be when you grow up?

273
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,600
I want to be a Power Ranger.

274
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,400
And Mrs. Whoever's a boy.

275
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,600
Like they have no idea what's going on in reality.

276
00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,300
It gets to the point like they're showing these kids pictures of the people that work in the school.

277
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:03,900
I'm saying like which one of these people abused you and they pick out pictures.

278
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:08,600
And from this Chuck Norris actually ends up being accused as one of the abusers

279
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:14,100
because they mixed in a picture of Chuck Norris and the kids like, yeah, that's the one who touched my butt.

280
00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:18,400
Some of the abuse was alleged to have occurred in secret tunnels beneath the school

281
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,700
and several excavations turned up evidence of old buildings on the site.

282
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:29,600
Another debris from the store the school was built, but no evidence of a secret chambers or tunnels was ever found.

283
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,000
I can imagine it getting out of hand at this point.

284
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,400
Yeah. And there were also claims of orgies at car washes and airports

285
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,800
and of children being flushed down toilets to secret rooms where they would be abused.

286
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,600
Yeah, preschoolers using orgies and like all of this.

287
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:49,900
See, I feel like the term orgy was added in to like condense what was being said.

288
00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:55,500
Literally, I just assume kids say touched butts a lot and there's like everybody in a car touching butts.

289
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:58,800
Oh, yeah, that's like a popular thing to say when you're that age.

290
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,500
Yeah, not to say that like sexual assault is a serious thing.

291
00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:05,100
It is not not. Yeah, it is not.

292
00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:11,800
It is but this just when you're putting it in this people who are so susceptible to being led like preschoolers

293
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,700
and I know how crazy the things that they say are if you give them a little bit of an opening.

294
00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:19,000
How like 10 year olds like your kids.

295
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,000
Oh, yeah, it happens. They do not live in reality.

296
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,600
Yeah, just to like add to that.

297
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,300
They're saying they were being flushed down toilets to secret rooms where they would be abused

298
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:32,200
then cleaned up and presented back to their parents.

299
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,800
Some child interviewees talked about a game called Naked Movie Star

300
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,600
and suggested that they were forcibly photographed nude.

301
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,500
However, during trial testimony, some children say that the Naked Movie Star game was actually a rhyming

302
00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:47,200
taught used to tease other children where they say what you say is what you are.

303
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,400
You're a naked movie star. Oh, yeah. I'm familiar with that.

304
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,600
It had nothing to do with having naked pictures taken.

305
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,000
He says oh God.

306
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,100
Judy Johnson who made these initial allegations also made bizarre

307
00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:02,200
and impossible statements about Ray Buckey including that he could fly again not the child.

308
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:03,800
Judy Johnson's the mom.

309
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:10,900
I thought it was the child that originally said that and she's just believing the no she fully believes it about her child.

310
00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:12,000
Oh my God.

311
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,400
So the child said it now.

312
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:14,800
She's like he flies.

313
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:15,600
She's pushing it.

314
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,500
Yeah, though the prosecution asserted Johnson's mental illness was caused by the events of the trial.

315
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:23,600
Johnson had admitted to them that she was mentally ill beforehand.

316
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,600
So this mom also does have mental illness.

317
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,200
Okay.

318
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,400
Evidence of Johnson's mental illness was withheld from the defense for three years

319
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:38,400
and when provided was in the form of a sanitized report that excluded Johnson's statements at the order of prosecution.

320
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,700
That not be illegal like that would be important.

321
00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:43,900
This is a super messed up case.

322
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:51,100
One of the original prosecutors Glenn Stevens left the case in protest and stated that the other prosecutors had withheld evidence from the defense

323
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:56,800
including the information that Johnson's son did not actually identify Ray Buckey in a series of photographs.

324
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,400
Was it Chuck Norris?

325
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,200
It probably was Chuck Norris in fact.

326
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:07,400
Stevens also accused Robert Philovoshin the deputy district attorney on the case of lying and withholding evidence from the court

327
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,700
and defense lawyers in order to keep Buckey in jail and prevent access to exonerating evidence.

328
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:15,000
Like this is such a messed up case.

329
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:23,700
What ends up coming of this is it lasts seven years in courts and it cost 15 million dollars to the taxpayer.

330
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:24,800
Holy shit.

331
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:30,700
It's considered the longest and most expensive criminal case in the history of the United States legal system to date.

332
00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:31,500
This one?

333
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:34,400
Yes and resulted in no conviction.

334
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,300
Well, it doesn't seem like it'd be able to.

335
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:38,900
Seven years? Who would be on that jury?

336
00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:42,100
To be fair, I'm assuming there were a lot of mistrials along the way.

337
00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:46,600
I had to keep it brief for the purpose of this episode because we're going into several things.

338
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,800
Like it's so messed up and the McMartin preschool was closed and the building was dismantled after this all ended.

339
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:52,900
I would assume it would be closed.

340
00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:56,300
Yeah, like you've had so much reputation loss at that point.

341
00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:56,800
Oh yeah.

342
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:57,700
Did they sue?

343
00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:59,400
You know, do you sue for that?

344
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,400
No, you can't because that's a criminal charge.

345
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,200
I mean, it doesn't matter.

346
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:08,800
You get a letter home from a daycare saying someone's been accused of sexual assault at a daycare.

347
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,800
Like people are going to probably immediately pull all their kids out.

348
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:12,800
Yeah, exactly.

349
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,000
And in 2005, I found this one statement.

350
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,800
One of the children as an adult made the statement overtracking their allegation of abuse.

351
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,300
Never did anyone do anything to me and I never saw them do anything.

352
00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:26,200
I said a lot of things that didn't happen.

353
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:26,900
I lied.

354
00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:32,900
Anytime I would give them an answer they didn't like, they would ask again and encourage me to give them the answers they were looking for.

355
00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:36,800
I felt uncomfortable and a little ashamed that I was being dishonest.

356
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:42,100
But at the same time, being the type of person I was, whatever my parents wanted me to do, I would do.

357
00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:47,100
Yeah, I mean at that age you're so easily susceptible and you don't really have a moral compass.

358
00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:47,800
Exactly.

359
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,500
Yeah, and like you're just like, oh yeah, no, like this isn't I don't know if this is hurting anybody.

360
00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:53,700
I'm just going to say these things.

361
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:56,800
Yeah, I don't care about these people because I'm three.

362
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:04,500
Yeah, that's one of many daycare sexual abuse and satanic ritual abuse cases that comes out of this period.

363
00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:05,400
That's crazy.

364
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,700
Absolutely insane.

365
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:10,600
It is not alone in its own vacuum or bubble.

366
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:19,400
In fact, you might be relieved to hear that it actually is a happy ending compared to a lot of the cases that actually go before the courts that we're going to be talking about a little later.

367
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,300
Okay, I was like how so but I guess we're going to learn about it.

368
00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:30,600
Yeah, we're going to move on from the daycares and we're going to talk about a little tabletop adventure game known as Dungeons and Dragons.

369
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,300
Now some of you may not have heard of this game as it is fairly new.

370
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:53,400
It is a tabletop role playing game where you pretend to be something that you are not with somebody telling you how the story is going and therefore dictating your future life and all endeavors including deaths, curses, sexual assaults and ritual abuse that may happen in your near future.

371
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:59,000
That of course being at least how a 1980s parent may describe Dungeons and Dragons to you.

372
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,800
It does not have a good reputation going into the 80s.

373
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:11,000
In 1979, all it is is a fantasy game where you pretend to be something in your mind and discuss how are you going to thwart things or get past problems.

374
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,600
As a group, if you're old enough, you drink beer in the bar and make poor decisions as you go.

375
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,900
That's it. That's literally Dungeons and Dragons.

376
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:19,100
I have played it for years.

377
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:24,700
I have not committed suicide nor have I felt that Dungeons and Dragons has pushed me to commit crimes.

378
00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:28,600
In fact, I think it prevents you from doing crimes because it prevents you from being cool.

379
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:35,300
Yeah, and wouldn't this is all people who probably haven't played Dungeons and Dragons that are making all these accusations.

380
00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:36,100
Oh, yeah.

381
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:37,800
Yeah, I just wanted to get that straight.

382
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,100
That is not people who play it religiously that are making these accusations.

383
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:46,200
No, exactly. Now, Gary Gygax created Dungeons and Dragons in the late 70s.

384
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:47,200
There's some pushback.

385
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:57,400
It might be an interesting story in the future to talk about issues that they had with the JRR Tolkien's estate when it comes to naming rights for many different creatures that are in the game.

386
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,200
But for now, we're just talking about the satanic panic.

387
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,500
So we're going to keep it at that.

388
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:06,700
Kids are playing this game and apparently they're being driven to suicide like fairly often in 1979.

389
00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:12,700
A 16 year old child prodigy and sorry, this is literally all opinion pieces.

390
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:22,400
Basically, when you hear them describe how these kids are in 1975, a 16 year old child prodigy, James Dallas Egbert, the third, disappeared from his room at Michigan State University.

391
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:33,600
A private investigator, William Deer, was hired by James's parents to find their son. Despite apparently knowing little about role playing games, Deer believed that D&D was the cause of Egbert's disappearance.

392
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,200
In truth, it was because of his name, Egbert.

393
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,900
Don't ever name your kid Egbert.

394
00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:48,000
No, it's actually because Egbert suffered from, among other things, depression and drug addiction and had gone into hiding in the utility tunnels under the university during an episode of self-harm.

395
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:58,900
The well-publicized episode, though, referred to as the steam tunnel incident prompted a number of works of fiction, including the novel Mazes and Monsters in 1982 and Tom Hanks film of the same name.

396
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:05,000
In fact, you can find clips of Tom Hanks playing a kid about to commit suicide because he's too involved in the industry.

397
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,000
Robbie!

398
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,000
Robbie!

399
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,000
Robbie!

400
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,000
Robbie!

401
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,500
Pardue, what are you doing?

402
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:14,000
Going to join the Great Hall.

403
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,300
You can't, it's a trap.

404
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:16,700
I have spells.

405
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:18,000
I'm going to fly.

406
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,500
You don't have enough points.

407
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:21,000
I am the maze controller.

408
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,000
Maze co-

409
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:26,700
Maze controller?

410
00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:27,700
Yes.

411
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:30,500
And I have absolute authority in this game.

412
00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:31,500
Game?

413
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:34,200
Game.

414
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:39,500
Game.

415
00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:40,500
Game.

416
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:48,500
JJ, what am I doing here?

417
00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:52,500
Egbert later dies from a self-inflicted gunshot wound in 1980.

418
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:57,500
Despite the evidence regarding his mental health problems, some activists believe Egbert's suicide was caused by D&D.

419
00:28:57,500 --> 00:28:58,500
Doesn't even make sense.

420
00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:04,500
And another one, in 1982, high school student Irving Lee Pulling died after shooting himself in the chest,

421
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:09,500
despite an article in the Washington Post at the time commenting how Pulling had trouble fitting in.

422
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:16,000
His mother, Pat Pulling, believed her son's suicide was caused by D&D, and Pat Pulling is actually a huge character here.

423
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:21,000
Her son, Irving, committed suicide by shooting himself in the chest on June 9, 1982.

424
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:29,500
Irving was active in the role-playing games, and she believed his suicide was directly related to the Dungeons & Dragons game.

425
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:36,500
The grieving mother first filed a wrongful death lawsuit against her son's high school principal, Robert A. Bracey III,

426
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:43,000
holding him as responsible for what she claims was a D&D curse placed upon her son's character shortly before his death.

427
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,000
She also filed suit against TSR Inc., who publishes D&D.

428
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:52,000
Again, it was clear that the most complex psychological factors in this scenario were at play.

429
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,500
Victoria Rocherly, a classmate of Irving Pulling, commented that

430
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:59,500
he had a lot of problems anyway that weren't associated with the game.

431
00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:03,500
Despite the court dismissing these cases, Pulling continued her campaign by forming

432
00:30:03,500 --> 00:30:09,500
Bothered About Dungeons & Dragons in 1983, which has the initials BAD.

433
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:14,500
Funny enough, she seems to be more worried about what the initials will look like and making sure it looks good.

434
00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:33,500
Pulling described D&D as a fantasy role-playing game which fuses demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape,

435
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:41,500
blasphemy, suicide, assassinations, insanity, sex, perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic-type rituals,

436
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:50,500
gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon-summoning, necromantics, divination, and other teachings.

437
00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:59,500
I really need to take a second here and say she threw in homosexuality with literally everything else that's terrible and illegal.

438
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:01,500
It's a time period to do that, I mean.

439
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:03,500
Yeah, it definitely is.

440
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:04,500
It's not out of this realm.

441
00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:05,500
Sorry about the prostitution as well.

442
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:13,500
Because we're talking about a made-up game and they're blaming it on suicides and stuff like that, so might as well throw it in there.

443
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:16,500
I mean, it's not really based in reality.

444
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:18,500
It might come up in a bit, I'll get to it when we get to it.

445
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:26,500
And if anything, with all these things that these people are battling, which is most likely depression and drug abuse and stuff from at least what you were just saying,

446
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:30,500
they're probably using D&D as an escape of some sort.

447
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:35,500
If they're battling depression or something like that and they're having a hard time, it's probably helping them.

448
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:40,500
Not in the instance where they actually committed suicide, but it was probably some sort of escape.

449
00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:46,500
You bring up a good point where they're actually probably trying to also hide the fact that they're using it as escape from their family,

450
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:52,500
which is just adding stress to it because their family is going to be worried that they're practicing satanic rituals.

451
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:55,500
Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, that's another good point.

452
00:31:55,500 --> 00:32:05,500
Not only is it just like you're one of few escapes from society, it's something that your family would disown you over as well or take away from you as an escape.

453
00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:06,500
That's a stupid game.

454
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:07,500
Should they ever find it?

455
00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:08,500
Yeah. Okay.

456
00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:21,500
So Pat and Bad launched an intensive media campaign through conservative Christian outlets, as well as mainstream media, including an appearance on 60 Minutes opposite Gary Gygix.

457
00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:26,500
And that's the first clip, Chelsea, I put in the general chat that I want you to show to us.

458
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:27,500
Yeah.

459
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:32,500
D&D, it's become popular with children anywhere from grammar school on up.

460
00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:37,500
Not so with a lot of adults who think it's been connected to a number of suicides and murders.

461
00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:45,500
The idea of the game, which is played by highly imaginative and intelligent kids, is to assume the role of one of the characters.

462
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:48,500
One game can go on for weeks or even months.

463
00:32:48,500 --> 00:33:00,500
The problem seems to be that some kids take it more seriously than others take it a step further, playing a character who brings them the power in a game they couldn't possibly get in real life.

464
00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:08,500
There are those who are fearful that the game in the hands of vulnerable kids could do harm, and there is evidence that seems to support that view.

465
00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:12,500
Timothy Grice, 21, a shotgun suicide.

466
00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:16,500
The detective report noted D&D became a reality.

467
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:21,500
Irving Benk Pulling, 16, an avid D&D player, a suicide.

468
00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:27,500
Daniel and Stephen Irwin, 16 and 12, a murder and a suicide.

469
00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:30,500
The police said they were obsessed with the game.

470
00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:37,500
James Allen Kirby, 14 years old, charged with killing his junior high school principal and wounding three other people.

471
00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:39,500
Police are blaming D&D.

472
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:41,500
Jeffrey Jachlovich, 14.

473
00:33:41,500 --> 00:33:43,500
Stephen Lojeckano, 16.

474
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:45,500
Michael Dempsey, 17.

475
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:47,500
And the list goes on.

476
00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:54,500
The company that makes the Dungeons & Dragons material is TSR Incorporated of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.

477
00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:58,500
They estimate there are three to four million kids who play the game.

478
00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:06,500
Last year they grossed nearly $30 million with Dungeons & Dragons books and paraphernalia accounting for most of those sales.

479
00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:10,500
Gary Gygax owns the company and invented the game.

480
00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:13,500
Dieter Sturm is the head of public relations.

481
00:34:13,500 --> 00:34:19,500
There are a number of cases that have been documented where there is some connection between D&D.

482
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:27,500
I'm not saying that D&D is the cause of the death, but paraphernalia from the game has been found at the scene of the death.

483
00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:31,500
Suicide notes referring to the game have been found.

484
00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:37,500
And all of these people in a dozen or so cases have been documented as avid D&D players.

485
00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:46,500
So he said D&D paraphernalia found at the scene of the death is a very deceptive way of saying these kids committed suicide in their bedroom.

486
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:52,500
Ah, that is an incredibly deceptive way because there's probably a million other things that could be found there.

487
00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:55,500
It's kind of like saying owning a bed leads to suicide.

488
00:34:55,500 --> 00:35:02,500
I love the sway. I mean, that's such a sad thing, but I love the swig of the owner, the creator of Dungeons & Dragons. Look at him.

489
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:08,500
First off, he uses a fantastic sweater. That is a sweater that adds plus three charisma.

490
00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:15,500
Second off, just wait until he actually talks. Like this guy does not take the guff. Good on him for what he says here.

491
00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:17,500
Okay, I like this. Okay, let's go.

492
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:19,500
And you see no connection whatsoever.

493
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:27,500
We see no connection for the fact that right now there's some three to four million players of the game actively throughout the United States.

494
00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:37,500
Right at this particular time, 1985 teenage suicide is epidemic across the country with some 5,000 kids a year now taking their lives.

495
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:48,500
I think that to say that because that child played Dungeons & Dragons, who's to say that that child does not watch television, does not participate in high school sports or what per se?

496
00:35:48,500 --> 00:36:02,500
I have yet to see one bit of valid clinical evidence to show that this has been anything more than coincidental with a disturbed child.

497
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:10,500
If you found 12 kids in murder-suicide with one connecting factor in each of them, wouldn't you question it? And that's all people do.

498
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:17,500
I would certainly do it in a scientific manner, and this is as unscientific as you can get it. It's nothing but a witch hunt.

499
00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:24,500
Oh, Jesus. This is crazy. That's so stupid. There's probably more than one connecting factor in all of them.

500
00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:25,500
Yeah. All teenagers.

501
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:31,500
Yes, but Pat Pulling is the one here that's next, the one who started bad. There are 12-year-old daughters in the background here.

502
00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:40,500
But the families who have suffered the loss of a loved one would disagree. Pat and Lee Pulling and their 12-year-old daughter, Melissa.

503
00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:48,500
The Pullings came home one night three years ago and found Bink, their son, dead on the front lawn of their home in Montpelier, Virginia.

504
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:57,500
He had shot himself through the heart with his father's handgun. Until that night, they had never heard of the game Dungeons & Dragons.

505
00:36:57,500 --> 00:36:59,500
Then they began looking through his things.

506
00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:07,500
We went into the kitchen and there on the table were what we thought were just regular composition books with schoolwork in it,

507
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:14,500
and much of the Dungeons & Dragons material along with this curse he had received in the game that day that he died.

508
00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:22,500
The curse that was placed on Bink's D&D character began, Your soul is mine. I choose the time.

509
00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:28,500
In a letter that he left, Bink said he had been summoned to kill himself because he was evil.

510
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:37,500
It was obvious through his writings that he felt he had assumed this character, but what I couldn't get into my mind was, is it possible?

511
00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:45,500
How could anybody do that? How could a 16-year-old that is smart, intelligent, why would they believe that they were something in a game

512
00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:49,500
and why would they kill theirself because somebody else said to do it?

513
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:51,500
Your son was well adjusted?

514
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:56,500
Always. He had never had psychological problems. He was healthy, even physically healthy.

515
00:37:56,500 --> 00:38:02,500
Well, we found that there's been numerous parents who say that the child's had no problems and such.

516
00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:11,500
Very conclusively, we go back to details of reports of classmates, of teachers, of friends and such,

517
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:17,500
who very much kind of show that the youngster didn't fit in to school.

518
00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:21,500
He had outside problems and generally problems with his family.

519
00:38:21,500 --> 00:38:29,500
We know that in the case of Dungeons and Dragons, upwards of three million kids play the game with no apparent serious consequence,

520
00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:34,500
that for them it exercises the imagination and is just good fun.

521
00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:41,500
But there are those who are afraid that impressionable, vulnerable kids could be harmed by it.

522
00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:47,500
Dr. Thomas Rodecki is a psychiatrist who teaches at the University of Illinois Medical School

523
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:52,500
and who is chairman of the National Coalition on Television Violence.

524
00:38:52,500 --> 00:39:00,500
He has been studying the game for several years and says there are 28 deaths related to Dungeons and Dragons in the last five years.

525
00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:04,500
In some of those it was clearly the decisive element, in other ones it was just a major element

526
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:09,500
in the thinking of the people at the time they committed suicide or murder.

527
00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:14,500
It's not coincidence, not when you have careful documentation, you have careful notes, you have eyewitnesses.

528
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:22,500
For instance, one case the parents actually saw their child summon Dungeons and Dragons demons into his room before he killed himself.

529
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:27,500
Another case, the kid had thought he had the ability to astral travel coming from the Dungeons and Dragons game,

530
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:29,500
that he could leave his body and come back.

531
00:39:29,500 --> 00:39:32,500
And he had rigged it up just according to the rule book so he could do it.

532
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:38,500
He was surrounded by his materials and put a bullet in his head so he could leave his body and he's never come back.

533
00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:42,500
This is make-believe and nobody's murdered and there's no violence there.

534
00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:50,500
I mean, to use an analogy with another game, who is bankrupted by losing a game of Monopoly?

535
00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:55,500
Nobody is because the money is make-believe, the property is make-believe, and the bankruptcy is make-believe.

536
00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:57,500
It is not like Monopoly, there is no board.

537
00:39:57,500 --> 00:40:01,500
It is role-playing which is typically used for behavior modification.

538
00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:08,500
If you are using behavior modification and you are doing violent roles and you're doing negative roles continuously,

539
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:15,500
these children not only begin to have violent dreams or violent thoughts or negative depressing type things,

540
00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:18,500
they become very much a part of this character.

541
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:23,500
Melissa claimed that D&D had become more than just a game for her brother, Bink.

542
00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:25,500
Someone threatened you?

543
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:29,500
Yes.

544
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:33,500
My brother threatened to kill me one time.

545
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:46,500
We found out later that he threatened to kill her and she told us that he was playing the game.

546
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:49,500
She knew it and she was actually scared for her life.

547
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:52,500
I just also want to make a note.

548
00:40:52,500 --> 00:41:00,500
It is not uncommon for children, especially siblings, to say, if you tell mom and dad about this, I will kill you.

549
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:04,500
I believe I said that to you every single day.

550
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:08,500
Yes, and I have survived so far as far as I know.

551
00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:17,500
Just to give you an idea of what that time was like, and that wasn't just some small town investigation, that was 60 minutes.

552
00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:21,500
That went out to everyone in the US in 1985.

553
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:26,500
I mean, media is a fun thing. They really put it in your head for something.

554
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:34,500
And dare I say there were almost as many people watching that episode of 60 minutes as there were Dungeons & Dragons players in the United States that year.

555
00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:39,500
And likely more people committed suicide that have the connecting factor that they watched 60 minutes.

556
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:41,500
There's probably more.

557
00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:45,500
Oh my gosh, amazing how they can make it work for them.

558
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:48,500
Yeah, a few more that they talk about a lot.

559
00:41:48,500 --> 00:41:59,500
In 1985, John Quigley of Lakeview Full Gospel Fellowship spoke for many opponents when he claimed the game is an occult tool that opens up young people to influence or possession by demons.

560
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:03,500
So, of course, bothered about Dungeons & Dragons bad.

561
00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:17,500
Historically, Delta Major flowed in Dungeons & Dragons and prevented it from going on to a tabletop game that would be played by tens of millions of people worldwide for the next decades and decades and decades.

562
00:42:17,500 --> 00:42:22,500
And would drive Gary Gagex into poverty and suicide, of course, just kidding.

563
00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:34,500
Of course, D&D survives in 1994 bad dissolves mostly due to Pat pulling dying of the real Satan cancer lung cancer and having no real driver from that point.

564
00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:45,500
And just to give you an idea, studies from the American Association of Suicidology at the US Center for Disease Control and Health and Welfare Canada all found there's no causal link between D&D and suicide.

565
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:53,500
In fact, if you play Dungeons & Dragons, you actually have a lower suicide rate than the rest of the population.

566
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:58,500
Oh, it's not listed on their website that that's the number one cause of suicide?

567
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:08,500
No, in fact, it's actually something that can be used to both foster a better dealing with other people, reasoning skills, less aggression, community.

568
00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:12,500
But that, of course, means it's just generally accepted with the population as a whole.

569
00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:26,500
No, in fact, while I was at law school, I was told by at least one individual that it's surprising you play D&D with its connections to Satanism, which I found hilarious because that was in 2014.

570
00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:38,500
And as most recent as 2010, the United States Court of Appeal for the Seventh Circuit upheld a ban on playing Dungeons & Dragons by the Wapin Correctional Facility.

571
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:52,500
Captain Muraski, the Institute's gang specialist, testified that D&D can, quote, foster an inmate's obsession with escaping from real life correctional environment and fostering hostility, violence and escape behavior.

572
00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:56,500
Interesting. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, I can't believe that. I don't know.

573
00:43:56,500 --> 00:44:04,500
But you know what else is crazy? Now what? How they treated music in the 1980s, which I think this is going to be fun.

574
00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:10,500
Yeah, 1970s, of course, give rise to what's commonly referred to as heavy metal music.

575
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:15,500
Black Sabbath being the first heavy metal band and Ozzy Osbourne being associated with it.

576
00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:20,500
And that giving rise to what the 1980s really being the Zenith 4 metal to spawn.

577
00:44:20,500 --> 00:44:27,500
However, that led to a fear that heavy metal contained lyrics which encouraged people to do bad things.

578
00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:34,500
And it was never more prevalent than in 1985 when 20 year old James Vance tried to sue Judas Priest.

579
00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:41,500
After a night of partying, James Vance and his friend, 18 year old Raymond Belknap, headed to a local playground and shot themselves.

580
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:44,500
Belknap wouldn't survive the incident, but Vance would.

581
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:52,500
And he went on to file a lawsuit against Judas Priest as he claimed the subliminal messaging in their stained glass album drove them to this act.

582
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:53,500
Oh, Lord.

583
00:44:53,500 --> 00:44:57,500
Ultimately, the band and their record label would avoid any legal responsibility for the tragedy,

584
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:10,500
but not even empirical evidence was enough to convince concerned parents and moral campaigners that subliminal messages promoting suicide and devil worship weren't possessing the heavy metal records kids were listening to.

585
00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:20,500
In 1985, a committee known as the Parents Music Resource Center, spearheaded by Tipper Gore, made up a playlist of songs they deemed inappropriate for consumption.

586
00:45:20,500 --> 00:45:26,500
The list of the Filthy 15 was used to serve as a template for proposed legislation regarding how albums should be rated,

587
00:45:26,500 --> 00:45:33,500
suggesting that they could come with an extra warning if the contents pertain to sex, violence, drugs, alcohol, or the occult.

588
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:37,500
And I just love this is their list of 15 songs, just some of the songs.

589
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:40,500
Probably a pretty good list of like some really good songs.

590
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:49,500
Judas Priest, Eat Me Alive, Motley Crue's Bastard, ACDC's Let Me Put My Love Into You, Twisted Sisters, We're Not Gonna Take It, Wasps, Animal,

591
00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:57,500
Deaf Lefford's High and Dry, Merciful Fates, Into the Coven, Black Sabbath's Thrashed, and Venoms Possessed.

592
00:45:57,500 --> 00:46:02,500
And this came from a heavy metal blog that I was reading.

593
00:46:02,500 --> 00:46:11,500
They said, it's funny, they have ACDC on there and it's Let Me Put My Love Into You when they also have Highway to Hell and Hell's Bells.

594
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:13,500
And they're just like, no, those are good.

595
00:46:13,500 --> 00:46:16,500
Those are about driving and Christian bells.

596
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:21,500
There's only room for 15.

597
00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:26,500
If there's anything more scary than Satan and the occult, it's sex.

598
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:29,500
So Let Me Put My Love Into You is the one that makes the list.

599
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:30,500
Exactly.

600
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:37,500
So anyhow, this group actually gets before the Senate of the United States.

601
00:46:37,500 --> 00:46:43,500
Like the high is basically one of the biggest groups in the country that can enact legislation.

602
00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:47,500
PMRC gets before the Senate and they have a hearing.

603
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:58,500
They invite people from both sides of this argument to come speak in front of the Senate members and give their side of the story, which leads to one of the funniest sites you'll ever see.

604
00:46:58,500 --> 00:47:04,500
And it is, of course, Dee Snider, who is famous from being the lead singer of Twisted Sister, presenting before the Senate.

605
00:47:04,500 --> 00:47:07,500
Mr. Snider, thank you for being here.

606
00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:10,500
Thank you for having me here.

607
00:47:10,500 --> 00:47:15,500
I don't know if it's morning or afternoon. I'll say both good morning and good afternoon.

608
00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:20,500
My name is Dee Snider. That's S-N-I-D-E-R.

609
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:39,500
I have been asked to come here to present my views on, quote, the subject of the content of certain sound recordings and suggestions that recording packages be labeled to provide a warning to prospective purchasers of sexually explicit or other potentially offensive content, unquote.

610
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:43,500
Before I get into that, I'd like to tell the committee a little bit about myself.

611
00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:48,500
I'm 30 years old. I'm married. I have a three-year-old son.

612
00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:52,500
I was born and raised a Christian, and I still adhere to those principles.

613
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:58,500
Believe it or not, I do not drink, I do not smoke, and I do not do drugs.

614
00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:06,500
I do play in and write the songs for a rock and roll band named Twisted Sister that is classified as heavy metal.

615
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:13,500
And I pride myself on writing songs that are consistent with my above-mentioned beliefs.

616
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:18,500
There are many facets to this complex issue, and time does not permit me to address all of them.

617
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:32,500
However, my feelings are expressed for the most part by the August 8, 1985 letter to the Parents Music Resource Center from Mr. Stanley Gordikoff, president of the Recording Industry Association of America.

618
00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:37,500
This letter was a formal response to the PMRC's petition of the RIAA.

619
00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:49,500
The only part of this document I do not support is Mr. Gordikoff's unnecessary and unfortunate decision to agree to a so-called generic label on some selected records.

620
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:54,500
In my opinion, this should be retracted.

621
00:48:54,500 --> 00:49:03,500
Since I seem to be the only person addressing this committee today who has been a direct target of accusations from the presumably responsible PMRC,

622
00:49:03,500 --> 00:49:12,500
I would like to use this occasion to speak on a more personal note and show just how unfair the whole concept of lyrical interpretation and judgment can be,

623
00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:17,500
and how many times this can amount to little more than character assassination.

624
00:49:17,500 --> 00:49:23,500
I have taken the liberty of distributing to you material and lyrics pertaining to these accusations.

625
00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:27,500
There were three attacks in particular which I would like to address.

626
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:30,500
Accusation number one.

627
00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:38,500
This attack was contained in an article written by Tipper Gore, which was given the form of a full page in my hometown newspaper on Long Island.

628
00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:48,500
In this article, Ms. Gore claimed that one of my songs, Under the Blade, had lyrics encouraging sadomasochism, bondage, and rape.

629
00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:53,500
The lyrics she quoted have absolutely nothing to do with these topics.

630
00:49:53,500 --> 00:50:00,500
On the contrary, the words in question are about surgery and the fear that it instills in people.

631
00:50:00,500 --> 00:50:06,500
Furthermore, the reader of this article is led to believe that the three lines she quotes go together in the song,

632
00:50:06,500 --> 00:50:11,500
when as you can see from reading the lyrics, the first two lines she cites are an edited phrase from the second verse,

633
00:50:11,500 --> 00:50:15,500
and the third line is a misquote of a line from the chorus.

634
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:23,500
That the writer could misquote me is curious, since we make it a point to print all our lyrics on the inner sleeve of every album.

635
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:33,500
As the creator of Under the Blade, I can say categorically that the only sadomasochism, bondage, and rape in this song is in the mind of Ms. Gore.

636
00:50:33,500 --> 00:50:35,500
Accusation number two.

637
00:50:35,500 --> 00:50:42,500
The PMRC has made public a list of 15 of what they feel are some of the most blatant songs lyrically.

638
00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:50,500
On this list is our song, We're Not Gonna Take It, upon which has been stowed a V rating indicating violent lyrical content.

639
00:50:50,500 --> 00:50:59,500
You'll note from the lyrics before you that there is absolutely no violence of any type, either sung about or implied anywhere in the song.

640
00:50:59,500 --> 00:51:06,500
Now, it strikes me that the PMRC may have confused our video presentation for this song with the meaning of the lyrics.

641
00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:13,500
It's no secret that videos often depict storylines completely unrelated to the lyrics of the song they accompany.

642
00:51:13,500 --> 00:51:23,500
The video for We're Not Gonna Take It was simply meant to be a cartoon with human actors playing variations on the Roadrunner-Wile-E-Coyote theme.

643
00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:28,500
Each stunt was selected from my extensive personal collection of cartoons.

644
00:51:28,500 --> 00:51:40,500
You'll note when you watch the entire video that after each catastrophe our villain suffers through, in the next sequence he reappears unharmed by any previous attack, no worse for the wear.

645
00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:54,500
By the way, I'm very pleased to note that the United Way of America has been granted a request to use portions of our We're Not Gonna Take It video in a program they are producing on the subject of the changing American family.

646
00:51:54,500 --> 00:52:04,500
They asked for it because of its, yeah, they asked for it because of its quote, lighthearted way of talking about communicating with teenagers, unquote.

647
00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:12,500
It is gratifying that an organization as respected as the United Way of America appreciates where we're coming from.

648
00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:20,500
I've included a copy of the United Way's request as part of my written testimony. Thank you, United Way.

649
00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:22,500
Certainly did a good job on himself there.

650
00:52:22,500 --> 00:52:32,500
Especially being the only guy in that entire group not wearing a suit and just showing up and just like nothing but the best of 80s hair metal paraphernalia.

651
00:52:32,500 --> 00:52:40,500
Also appearing in the PMRC hearing at the Senate was Frank Zappa, who unfortunately did show up in a suit and tie.

652
00:52:40,500 --> 00:52:50,500
Strangely enough, John Denver, of all people, I didn't watch it. I just saw it on the side while I was looking at these videos that John Denver said some things to. No idea if he was for or against.

653
00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:54,500
My guess is his music was seen as wholesome, so he would be okay with that.

654
00:52:54,500 --> 00:52:56,500
Oh yeah, he didn't make the list.

655
00:52:56,500 --> 00:53:10,500
So that's his response to it. There are some other responses to as well to the declarations of the Filthy 15, King Diamond, who was the personification of satanic metal in the 1980s and was a card carrying member of the Church of Satan.

656
00:53:10,500 --> 00:53:17,500
He specifically wrote music with lyrics heavily influenced by horror films and the occult. So were Venoms, another band in there.

657
00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:30,500
Neither artist took the PMRC seriously and they said they appreciated the publicity and Venom jokingly said that they weren't looking hard enough if they thought that that was the most offensive Venom song out there that made the Filthy 15.

658
00:53:30,500 --> 00:53:40,500
And in fact, a quote from Sam Dunn of Venom in a documentary in 2012, that just sounds lazy to me. That sounds like nobody's listening enough to Venom to find the worst song.

659
00:53:40,500 --> 00:53:48,500
But in the end, what ends up coming from this actually is the parental advisory stickers that are on many albums that most teenagers want to buy.

660
00:53:48,500 --> 00:53:51,500
Oh really? Yeah, that's where they come from. That's disappointing.

661
00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:58,500
That's the end really, or at least where we get to with Satanic Panic in the music industry from that.

662
00:53:58,500 --> 00:54:04,500
Literally, the parental advisory sticker is still found everywhere on albums. That just means it's a good one.

663
00:54:04,500 --> 00:54:08,500
Although nobody buys albums anymore and I don't know if they have that sticker on Spotify, do they?

664
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:13,500
I don't know because we put explicit on ours, so it probably does somewhere.

665
00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:18,500
Yeah, but that's like a self-reporting thing. Like we can't slap, we could slap that sticker on or we couldn't.

666
00:54:18,500 --> 00:54:24,500
Yeah, we could take it off too. I don't know. Not that I've ever paid attention to, but it's not like I'm out there looking for it.

667
00:54:24,500 --> 00:54:28,500
By the mid 1980s, Satanic Panic had reached its peak.

668
00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:40,500
There were classes aimed at law enforcement authorities and taught mostly by other cops, therapists, and preachers, and by born again Christians claiming to be former high priests or escapees from unspeakably sadistic ritual torture cults.

669
00:54:40,500 --> 00:54:49,500
This does end up coming to an end in about 1992 when the Justice Department thoroughly debunks the myth of Satanic ritual abuse cults.

670
00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:50,500
Oh my God.

671
00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:56,500
Yeah, they come out with a very thorough statement and explanation about basically everything that had come out in the 1980s.

672
00:54:56,500 --> 00:55:03,500
Thankfully, we grew up in that era and got to do some of these terrible things that apparently are Satanic ritual abuses.

673
00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:04,500
Thank God.

674
00:55:04,500 --> 00:55:06,500
But it didn't necessarily go away with it.

675
00:55:06,500 --> 00:55:19,500
Though the accusation of satanically motivated child abuse rituals had pretty much died by the mid 1990s, you can find videos like the one that Chelsea's now going to show us that came from 1994.

676
00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:21,500
The guy with the good hair.

677
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:24,500
There's two different communities that use this park.

678
00:55:24,500 --> 00:55:32,500
One is the pagan or occultic community and the other community is, of course, the homosexual community.

679
00:55:32,500 --> 00:55:36,500
Interestingly enough, they go hand in hand.

680
00:55:36,500 --> 00:55:40,500
And so, well, see, here you go.

681
00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:45,500
Upon entering the park, I mean, you can see they've already got started.

682
00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:46,500
Okay.

683
00:55:46,500 --> 00:55:47,500
This is a pentacle.

684
00:55:47,500 --> 00:55:50,500
Interesting thing about this pentacle is it's an upright pentacle.

685
00:55:50,500 --> 00:55:52,500
This is not a satanic pentacle.

686
00:55:52,500 --> 00:55:59,500
Now, the reason why this pentacle would not be considered satanic is because it has one point up.

687
00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:06,500
Now, Satanists would reverse this star or pentacle, as it's called, and have two points up.

688
00:56:06,500 --> 00:56:13,500
Those represent the horns of Baphomet and or the horns of Satan.

689
00:56:13,500 --> 00:56:19,500
I just want to make a note that I really think this guy spray painted this.

690
00:56:19,500 --> 00:56:22,500
I was just going to accuse him of that as well.

691
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:27,500
But he didn't have the guts to do it upside down in fear of summoning Satan.

692
00:56:27,500 --> 00:56:28,500
I feel like that as well.

693
00:56:28,500 --> 00:56:30,500
That was the distinct feeling I got from it.

694
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:33,500
And plus, he's calling it a pentacle.

695
00:56:33,500 --> 00:56:35,500
Is that what you call it?

696
00:56:35,500 --> 00:56:38,500
I call it a pentagram, but maybe I don't know.

697
00:56:38,500 --> 00:56:41,500
This is 1994.

698
00:56:41,500 --> 00:56:45,500
They call what he's got right there a good haircut, apparently, in 1997.

699
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:46,500
Yeah, it is. Look at that.

700
00:56:46,500 --> 00:56:49,500
Party in the back is hanging on by a thread.

701
00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:55,500
Yeah, but now right over here, I can see in a tree here, there's a there's a inverted cross.

702
00:56:55,500 --> 00:56:57,500
Now, this is satanic.

703
00:56:57,500 --> 00:56:59,500
This is a very generic symbol.

704
00:56:59,500 --> 00:57:00,500
Let me see.

705
00:57:00,500 --> 00:57:03,500
Well, it's actually fairly fresh, too.

706
00:57:03,500 --> 00:57:06,500
He fucking did it.

707
00:57:09,500 --> 00:57:10,500
He did do it.

708
00:57:10,500 --> 00:57:13,500
We just missed the bastard.

709
00:57:13,500 --> 00:57:18,500
He says with white paint on his hands.

710
00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:29,500
So he spray paints the first pentacle that's right side up and then goes to the other tree and does an upside down cross.

711
00:57:29,500 --> 00:57:37,500
Like who in their right mind would actually go to a park and do one that's not Satan and then go to the other tree and do an upside down cross?

712
00:57:37,500 --> 00:57:44,500
Well, no, funny enough, technically, an upside down cross is also a very Christian symbol.

713
00:57:44,500 --> 00:57:45,500
Right. You've told me about this.

714
00:57:45,500 --> 00:57:47,500
Yeah. And it's on the Pope's.

715
00:57:47,500 --> 00:57:49,500
I believe it's on the Pope's throne.

716
00:57:49,500 --> 00:57:57,500
I might have to correct that if I'm wrong, but it's the symbol of Pope Peter, the first pope, because when he was murdered or sorry, sentenced to death,

717
00:57:57,500 --> 00:58:03,500
he was sentenced to crucifixion, but he did not feel that he was deserving of the same death as Jesus.

718
00:58:03,500 --> 00:58:08,500
So he was crucified upside down, thereby having the symbol of the upside down cross.

719
00:58:08,500 --> 00:58:10,500
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

720
00:58:10,500 --> 00:58:13,500
And then it got, you know, really bastardized.

721
00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:16,500
But at the same time, it's not technically.

722
00:58:16,500 --> 00:58:19,500
Yeah, I feel like this is probably where it originated.

723
00:58:19,500 --> 00:58:20,500
Fucking haircut.

724
00:58:20,500 --> 00:58:22,500
See, he's making shit up.

725
00:58:22,500 --> 00:58:24,500
It's fresh.

726
00:58:26,500 --> 00:58:28,500
Fresh off this.

727
00:58:28,500 --> 00:58:30,500
That is.

728
00:58:58,500 --> 00:59:03,500
Those are the dominant colors of the satanic movement.

729
00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:07,500
And basically, well, OK, over here.

730
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:10,500
See, here you go.

731
00:59:10,500 --> 00:59:12,500
This.

732
00:59:12,500 --> 00:59:13,500
I'll see.

733
00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:15,500
This is this is what I'm talking about.

734
00:59:15,500 --> 00:59:20,500
OK, what you're looking at here is called Voodoo Veevee.

735
00:59:20,500 --> 00:59:25,500
This is kind of like a coat of arms, if you will, for the demonic.

736
00:59:25,500 --> 00:59:30,500
And the implications of this is definitely satanic.

737
00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:38,500
When I showed you earlier the one pointed up star as we first came in and I told you that, you know, the implications of Satanism are two points up.

738
00:59:38,500 --> 00:59:40,500
As you can see, there are two points up here.

739
00:59:40,500 --> 00:59:47,500
And someone has made it very clear they were probably worshipping set because it says set here.

740
00:59:47,500 --> 00:59:48,500
So it's pretty obvious.

741
00:59:48,500 --> 00:59:54,500
Now, this here, if I'm not mistaken, looks like a money Veevee.

742
00:59:54,500 --> 00:59:59,500
So I wouldn't be surprised if they were here in the park doing a money ritual.

743
00:59:59,500 --> 01:00:02,500
And this is very typical.

744
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:10,500
This is the kind of thing that you can expect to see not only on crime scenes, but in areas where occultists hang out like gang graffiti.

745
01:00:10,500 --> 01:00:15,500
Occultists kind of communicate to each other through their graffiti on the rise.

746
01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:23,500
There up here is is a very flat area, concrete area that is used often.

747
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:27,500
I even frequented it for ritual practice.

748
01:00:27,500 --> 01:00:28,500
Well, there you go.

749
01:00:28,500 --> 01:00:33,500
You can see from here 666 and an eye.

750
01:00:33,500 --> 01:00:38,500
Keep in mind, again, this is to train police officers.

751
01:00:38,500 --> 01:00:39,500
This?

752
01:00:39,500 --> 01:00:41,500
Yeah, to watch out for satanic rituals.

753
01:00:41,500 --> 01:00:44,500
It's the same white fucking paint.

754
01:00:44,500 --> 01:00:46,500
Yeah.

755
01:00:46,500 --> 01:00:49,500
I'm actually quite proud of this one.

756
01:00:49,500 --> 01:00:53,500
Does that say 666?

757
01:00:53,500 --> 01:00:54,500
You can end it there.

758
01:00:54,500 --> 01:00:57,500
This is a different world, is it not?

759
01:00:57,500 --> 01:00:58,500
Oh, yeah.

760
01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:01,500
Like, and you just know, I mean, this is what is this?

761
01:01:01,500 --> 01:01:03,500
This is the 80s.

762
01:01:03,500 --> 01:01:04,500
No, this is 94.

763
01:01:04,500 --> 01:01:05,500
90s.

764
01:01:05,500 --> 01:01:11,500
I was just going to say this almost seems like it's coming from the same timeframe of like reefer madness.

765
01:01:11,500 --> 01:01:16,500
When you can say anything against it and everyone's like, this is outrageous.

766
01:01:16,500 --> 01:01:20,500
I can't believe this is going on with their white fresh paint.

767
01:01:20,500 --> 01:01:28,500
This guy just wouldn't he be if it wasn't him that did it, you can bet your ass that he would have been terrified to be in that part.

768
01:01:28,500 --> 01:01:29,500
Oh, God, yeah.

769
01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:31,500
You know what?

770
01:01:31,500 --> 01:01:34,500
I bet he took three karate classes and he's good to go.

771
01:01:34,500 --> 01:01:36,500
Like, this is the 90s.

772
01:01:36,500 --> 01:01:38,500
Like, he's the peak of ninja culture.

773
01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:45,500
So terrified of satanic panic that he would have not gone any further if it wasn't him that did all this.

774
01:01:45,500 --> 01:01:49,500
But yeah, this dies down in the early 90s.

775
01:01:49,500 --> 01:01:51,500
That's a remnant of it.

776
01:01:51,500 --> 01:01:54,500
So no harm, no foul satanic panic dies out.

777
01:01:54,500 --> 01:01:58,500
Right. Well, we're going to go over a few stories, but that's not necessarily the case.

778
01:01:58,500 --> 01:02:05,500
In 1984, Cuban immigrant Frank Fuster was accused, along with his undocumented wife of molesting eight children.

779
01:02:05,500 --> 01:02:16,500
Despite coercive interview sessions and a lack of physical evidence, Fuster was sentenced to six consecutive life terms or a minimum of one hundred and sixty five years in prison.

780
01:02:16,500 --> 01:02:23,500
As of 2021, he has been in prison for 35 years and he will not be eligible for parole until 2134.

781
01:02:23,500 --> 01:02:26,500
He reportedly had no legal representation.

782
01:02:26,500 --> 01:02:36,500
North Carolina inmate Patrick figured right now, 72 still serving time for a 1992 conviction due to coerced allegations of ritualistic abuse.

783
01:02:36,500 --> 01:02:48,500
And Joseph Allen, 63, has been serving time in Ohio since 1994 for a highly bizarre case in which he was convicted of ritualistic child abuse, along with another woman, even though the two had never even met.

784
01:02:48,500 --> 01:02:50,500
However, she was later exonerated.

785
01:02:50,500 --> 01:02:53,500
And in two out of three of those, you just said coerced.

786
01:02:53,500 --> 01:03:01,500
Yeah, one Florida school principal spent 21 years in prison after being convicted on a false satanic ritualistic assault claim.

787
01:03:01,500 --> 01:03:07,500
He was released at the age of 80 after and ordered to move to another country in El Paso.

788
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:10,500
Two preschool owners each spent 21 years in prison.

789
01:03:10,500 --> 01:03:22,500
And in 1984, three members of the Amarope family of Maldon, Massachusetts, were convicted of false child molestation charges following yet another pattern of false memory coercion from children.

790
01:03:22,500 --> 01:03:29,500
Two of the defendants spent 10 and 20 years in prison before being paroled in 1999 and 2004 respectively.

791
01:03:29,500 --> 01:03:34,500
The third defendant died of cancer in prison before her conviction could be overturned.

792
01:03:34,500 --> 01:03:37,500
She was exonerated in 1998, the year she died.

793
01:03:37,500 --> 01:03:38,500
Year after she died, sorry.

794
01:03:38,500 --> 01:03:40,500
What a terrifying time to be alive.

795
01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:50,500
In 1997, four lesbian women who became known as the San Antonio Four were targeted and wrongly convicted for child molestation claims.

796
01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:58,500
Their trial played out against the resurgence of satanic panic tied to homophobia in a conservative state, and their fight for justice lasted nearly two decades.

797
01:03:58,500 --> 01:04:04,500
All four women spent 15 years in prison before having convictions overturned in 2015.

798
01:04:04,500 --> 01:04:05,500
Wow.

799
01:04:05,500 --> 01:04:07,500
And ultimately expunged in 2018.

800
01:04:07,500 --> 01:04:10,500
And one of the most famous, the West Memphis Three.

801
01:04:10,500 --> 01:04:18,500
In 1993, three teenagers in West Memphis, Arkansas were accused and convicted of sexual assaults and murders of three young boys.

802
01:04:18,500 --> 01:04:29,500
The teens were accused and primarily based on hearsay surrounding their quote, goth lifestyle and rumors that they worship Satan, despite a lack of any physical evidence.

803
01:04:29,500 --> 01:04:33,500
There's a documentary on this called Paradise Lost and it publicized the case.

804
01:04:33,500 --> 01:04:41,500
And because of that, the three men were ultimately freed in 2011 after new DNA evidence showed them to have no connection to the killing at all.

805
01:04:41,500 --> 01:04:42,500
Oh my God.

806
01:04:42,500 --> 01:04:50,500
They entered Al for please, which commuted their sentences to time serve in 18 years in prison each being released in 2011.

807
01:04:50,500 --> 01:04:53,500
It was a wild time for sure.

808
01:04:53,500 --> 01:04:59,500
A wild time so much in fact that there is one thing I want to talk about that is the finders cult.

809
01:04:59,500 --> 01:05:03,500
But we're out of time and it's going to have to be saved for another Halloween.

810
01:05:03,500 --> 01:05:05,500
I'm going to add it right now.

811
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:10,500
Okay, good. Because what if it wasn't all just media frenzy?

812
01:05:10,500 --> 01:05:14,500
What if there was something to these child abuse and SRA claims?

813
01:05:14,500 --> 01:05:18,500
Now we're going to have to wait on that one until another time.

814
01:05:18,500 --> 01:05:21,500
For now, I have been Taylor here with Chelsea.

815
01:05:21,500 --> 01:05:22,500
We are Journey to the Fringe.

816
01:05:22,500 --> 01:05:24,500
Thank you all for listening and we will see you next week.

817
01:05:24,500 --> 01:05:25,500
Bye.

818
01:05:30,500 --> 01:05:32,500
Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe.

819
01:05:32,500 --> 01:05:41,500
If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe or follow depending on what venue you are listening to us through.

820
01:05:41,500 --> 01:05:47,500
Also, please, if possible, leave a five star review as that really helps us in the algorithms.

821
01:05:47,500 --> 01:05:52,500
Should you wish to interact with us, please check us out on your social media of choice.

822
01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:54,500
I bet you we are there.

823
01:05:54,500 --> 01:06:01,500
And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell us that we're wrong and terrible either way,

824
01:06:01,500 --> 01:06:05,500
please send us an email at journeytothefringe.gmail.com.

825
01:06:05,500 --> 01:06:32,500
For now, I'll see you in the next episode.