WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.220 Okay, so I got the opener this week and to celebrate 00:00:03.220 --> 00:00:05.780 I'm gonna do a double header for an opener. First 00:00:05.780 --> 00:00:09.240 I'm gonna do an update on the James... I almost 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:12.519 combined the names Jeb's telescope, James Webb 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:15.640 telescope, because we have sort of been following 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.379 it, kind of. We didn't update on it. I can't 00:00:18.379 --> 00:00:21.440 remember why. We because we mentioned did at 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:24.679 some point briefly, but then we updated it that 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:27.460 it left, but it hadn't actually left. So we updated 00:00:27.460 --> 00:00:30.620 and had to record the audio later on after we 00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:33.140 recorded that it safely made it to where it needed 00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:36.280 to. So I thought that I'd start out with an update 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:38.460 on the brief updates that we've done in good 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:40.659 faith. This one is not in good faith. This one's 00:00:40.659 --> 00:00:43.630 all fact. It is fashionably late. We tried to 00:00:43.630 --> 00:00:45.929 jump the gun on the last update, and this one's 00:00:45.929 --> 00:00:48.009 going to come in a little bit late. That's OK. 00:00:48.090 --> 00:00:50.729 On average, we're on time now. Yeah. In True 00:00:50.729 --> 00:00:53.109 Journey to the Fringe fashion, we keep some sort 00:00:53.109 --> 00:00:56.390 of organization to the podcast. So James Webb 00:00:56.390 --> 00:00:58.969 Telescope finally reached its final destination, 00:00:59.030 --> 00:01:01.909 which was 30 days after its launch, which was 00:01:01.909 --> 00:01:04.250 around Christmas time. Did not put the exact 00:01:04.250 --> 00:01:06.890 date in True Journey to the Fringe fashion. Maybe 00:01:06.890 --> 00:01:09.109 that's just Chelsea fashion. The final resting 00:01:09.109 --> 00:01:13.370 place being the El - Lagrange point? Am I saying 00:01:13.370 --> 00:01:16.109 it right? Lagrange point? Which is four times 00:01:16.109 --> 00:01:18.709 further away than the moon. L2 is a point that 00:01:18.709 --> 00:01:21.349 will help keep its position stable relative to 00:01:21.349 --> 00:01:24.010 Earth and the Sun. Being in that spot protects 00:01:24.010 --> 00:01:26.909 it from the big swings in temperature and allows 00:01:26.909 --> 00:01:30.629 the James Webb Telescope. I don't get, they abbreviate 00:01:30.629 --> 00:01:35.030 it by saying JWST, but what is the S? Space Telescope, 00:01:35.030 --> 00:01:38.870 I believe. James Webb Space Telescope? Yeah. 00:01:39.170 --> 00:01:42.000 Oh, okay. So James Webb's Space Telescope, I 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:44.480 presume, being in the spot protects it from big 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.780 swings in temperature and allows the James Webb 00:01:46.780 --> 00:01:49.599 Space Telescope's giant sun shield to block heat 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:52.200 coming from the sun. The telescope must maintain 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:55.799 constant super cold temperatures, which is minus 00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:59.219 370 degrees Fahrenheit for the instruments to 00:01:59.219 --> 00:02:01.700 function properly. Yeah, it's crazy. It's near 00:02:01.700 --> 00:02:04.459 like absolute zero. I don't even know how they 00:02:04.459 --> 00:02:06.700 would know the temperature that it needs to be 00:02:06.700 --> 00:02:09.000 at or even test that here. Well, we can read 00:02:08.969 --> 00:02:12.530 near absolute zero in lab settings on earth is 00:02:12.530 --> 00:02:14.889 that absolute zero no we can't reach absolute 00:02:14.889 --> 00:02:17.509 zero like it's impossible i thought it was just 00:02:17.509 --> 00:02:20.330 zero degrees celsius oh okay when you're thinking 00:02:20.330 --> 00:02:22.909 of absolute zero you talk about kelvin and zero 00:02:22.909 --> 00:02:25.969 degrees kelvin is cold it's the coldest anything 00:02:25.969 --> 00:02:28.969 can possibly be okay wow that's cool and i thought 00:02:28.969 --> 00:02:32.550 i was cold all the time okay So, it's arrived 00:02:32.550 --> 00:02:35.689 now and unfolded. Yes, it had to be unfolded. 00:02:35.710 --> 00:02:39.530 It was too large, so it had to be launched into 00:02:39.530 --> 00:02:44.449 space, folded up into a rocket. I had no idea 00:02:44.449 --> 00:02:46.930 it was so gigantic. It's tennis court sized. 00:02:47.129 --> 00:02:48.949 You would think it would be little, but it's 00:02:48.949 --> 00:02:51.349 not. So it was launched up in the rocket and 00:02:51.349 --> 00:02:53.949 had to be unfolded remotely by commands from 00:02:53.949 --> 00:02:56.150 Earth. And the process took about two weeks to 00:02:56.150 --> 00:02:58.909 get it unfolded, which apparently was pretty 00:02:58.909 --> 00:03:02.009 intense. Now that it's unfolded and there, it 00:03:02.009 --> 00:03:04.349 now begins the process of aligning the mirrors, 00:03:04.729 --> 00:03:07.129 instrument activation, commissioning, adjusted 00:03:07.129 --> 00:03:10.189 the infrared telescopes mirror segments and testing 00:03:10.189 --> 00:03:12.370 out its instruments. And then she's ready to 00:03:12.370 --> 00:03:14.689 rock in about five months. It's a he, Chelsea. 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.860 It's a he? I thought they were all she's. Yeah, 00:03:18.020 --> 00:03:20.599 James Webb Space Telescope, but this one's James. 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:24.460 Okay, he. James could be a boy, I mean a girl. 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.860 I caught myself it as a boy. Okay, and it's going 00:03:29.860 --> 00:03:32.780 to be capturing the very first stars in the universe 00:03:32.780 --> 00:03:36.419 made possible by the infrared sensitivity the 00:03:36.419 --> 00:03:40.060 telescope is equipped with, as well as also studying 00:03:40.060 --> 00:03:43.389 the atmospheres of planets orbiting stars outside 00:03:43.389 --> 00:03:45.870 our solar system to see if they're habitable 00:03:45.870 --> 00:03:49.090 or inhabited. Can I just add at this point it's 00:03:49.090 --> 00:03:51.490 theoretically the first stars in the universe 00:03:51.490 --> 00:03:55.069 because that's based on our science that we can 00:03:55.069 --> 00:03:57.969 only make observations on from our observable 00:03:57.969 --> 00:03:59.710 portion of the universe and also it does not 00:03:59.710 --> 00:04:01.590 take into account that anything could have happened 00:04:01.590 --> 00:04:04.349 prior to the Big Bang. It doesn't take into account 00:04:04.349 --> 00:04:05.949 of that? No, there could have been stars before 00:04:05.949 --> 00:04:09.469 the Big Bang. Couldn't they see it with this 00:04:09.469 --> 00:04:12.060 telescope? no you can never see before the big 00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:14.939 bang why what if it never happened well theoretically 00:04:14.939 --> 00:04:18.399 it did and it's very hard to see past well if 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:20.240 there was nothing i guess you couldn't see that 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:24.759 but maybe there were stars anyhow so that's pretty 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.680 cool apparently this technology has never been 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:33.079 had by any telescope before and you can't they 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:35.480 can technically see the beginnings of the solar 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:38.379 system with this infrared camera the beginning 00:04:38.379 --> 00:04:40.459 of the solar system or beginning of the universe 00:04:40.459 --> 00:04:44.639 oh yeah both okay either one interchangeable 00:04:44.779 --> 00:04:46.920 Well, I just don't see how you can see because 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:48.740 basically what they're saying is we can see the 00:04:48.740 --> 00:04:50.439 beginning of the universe because we can see 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:52.720 things that are 14 billion light years away. 00:04:52.899 --> 00:04:55.819 So that light would be literally coming off of 00:04:55.819 --> 00:04:58.319 just after the Big Bang. See, I don't get that, 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.300 though. Like, wouldn't that light like pass us 00:05:01.300 --> 00:05:03.959 at some point? No, it's still working to pass 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:06.240 us because it left that star as soon as it was 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:09.600 created. And it is 14 billion light years away 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.300 from us. And a light year is how far light can 00:05:12.300 --> 00:05:15.439 travel in a year. we know how long away the first 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.500 star is generally we know when the big bang happened 00:05:18.500 --> 00:05:21.279 so likely what stars would have been created 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:23.220 and the first times they would have shown up 00:05:23.220 --> 00:05:24.939 so we're looking for light that would be coming 00:05:24.939 --> 00:05:27.180 from things that were created at that time okay 00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:30.240 we're getting really smart that like we say when 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:32.459 you look up at the sky and you can say like that 00:05:32.459 --> 00:05:34.480 light was created when dinosaurs were on the 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:36.740 earth because it's 67 million light years away 00:05:36.740 --> 00:05:39.899 yeah i get that but like at one point like it's 00:05:39.899 --> 00:05:42.560 closer like it's no longer when the dinosaurs 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:44.410 were there And then there's that whole other 00:05:44.410 --> 00:05:46.689 side of it of there's only so much of the universe 00:05:46.689 --> 00:05:49.769 we'll ever be able to see because the universe 00:05:49.769 --> 00:05:52.009 is expanding in all directions faster than the 00:05:52.009 --> 00:05:55.329 speed of light. So there's portions of the universe 00:05:55.329 --> 00:05:58.709 that are past the point that light could travel 00:05:58.709 --> 00:06:01.689 to us from that time. This is all very hard to 00:06:01.689 --> 00:06:04.610 wrap my mind around. but yeah it's very cool 00:06:04.610 --> 00:06:08.430 actually when we explain it simply to my simple 00:06:08.430 --> 00:06:10.769 mind so it's really cool that they're going to 00:06:10.769 --> 00:06:13.009 be able to capture this there's a lot of scientists 00:06:13.009 --> 00:06:15.949 that are very excited about this like camera 00:06:15.949 --> 00:06:17.709 that's going to capture things that they've never 00:06:17.709 --> 00:06:20.350 been able to capture before the infrared camera 00:06:20.350 --> 00:06:24.110 and the spectrograph as well break down light 00:06:24.110 --> 00:06:27.189 together in its full spectrum of colors like 00:06:27.189 --> 00:06:30.750 a rainbow to look for signs of water on planets 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.319 carbon dioxide and methane which are all common 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:37.439 on earth and we think may be signs of life -friendly 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:39.800 planets elsewhere as i think we've talked about 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:42.339 on other episodes yeah that would have been the 00:06:42.339 --> 00:06:45.459 Fermi paradox episode the Fermi paradox yes and 00:06:45.459 --> 00:06:48.120 we basically think that life will survive only 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.420 in the circumstances that we survive on earth 00:06:50.420 --> 00:06:52.920 we only have one case study and it's us yeah 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:54.660 so basically we're going to look for the things 00:06:54.660 --> 00:06:57.459 that we know can at least work in creating life 00:06:57.459 --> 00:07:00.529 i wonder if it works in all possibilities are 00:07:00.529 --> 00:07:02.810 a combination it must we don't know for sure 00:07:02.810 --> 00:07:05.550 though no but well again it was in the fermi 00:07:05.550 --> 00:07:07.370 paradox episode there's the idea of the rare 00:07:07.370 --> 00:07:09.589 earth and it's just like there are so many factors 00:07:09.589 --> 00:07:12.389 that you need to get life yeah like that it could 00:07:12.389 --> 00:07:15.029 have only popped up once highly unlikely anyhow 00:07:15.029 --> 00:07:18.269 to finish this off like best part i thought about 00:07:18.269 --> 00:07:21.269 this is there's already an image they took as 00:07:21.269 --> 00:07:24.350 it's calibrating stages and it also took a selfie 00:07:24.350 --> 00:07:26.910 of itself i'm gonna post oh yeah and how much 00:07:26.910 --> 00:07:28.990 they spent on that selfie it's pretty shitty 00:07:28.990 --> 00:07:31.939 actually yeah So I'm gonna post this to our social 00:07:31.939 --> 00:07:34.660 medias and the first image is really blurry. 00:07:35.019 --> 00:07:37.420 It's like pretty cool, but it's like super blurry. 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:39.860 You're like, you can tell it's blurry. And it's 00:07:39.860 --> 00:07:42.560 like, wow, so many millions of dollars. Billions. 00:07:42.779 --> 00:07:45.540 Yeah, many millions into the billions. Yeah, 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:47.680 I guess you're technically right. And it's like 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:49.980 saying laundry done in seconds. Technically, 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:51.959 no matter how long it takes, it's still in seconds. 00:07:51.980 --> 00:07:54.160 Yeah, it might be like thousands of seconds, 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:56.740 but. Yeah, so they're blurry pictures because 00:07:56.740 --> 00:07:59.360 it's not quite set up yet. It is a nice blurry 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:03.939 selfie of the JWST, whatever the S means. It's 00:08:03.939 --> 00:08:05.639 space telescope. It's the James Webb Space Telescope. 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:08.560 Why do we have to like specify space telescope? 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:10.939 Because there's a distinct difference between 00:08:10.939 --> 00:08:13.220 a terrestrial telescope and a space telescope. 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:16.959 Okay. And the huge difference is that they do 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:20.000 not need to account for atmospheric changes to 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.879 the viewing. Does that make sense? I guess so. 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:25.399 And because when I say James Webb telescope, 00:08:25.459 --> 00:08:28.199 I don't say James Webb Space Telescope. Really? 00:08:28.220 --> 00:08:30.339 I feel that it feels more natural with the space 00:08:30.339 --> 00:08:33.840 in there. OK, I will amend all of it moving forward. 00:08:34.059 --> 00:08:37.500 Not now. OK, so part two of my opener. It's not 00:08:37.500 --> 00:08:42.740 as epic as Mk 97. But next is an article I stumbled 00:08:42.740 --> 00:08:45.019 upon a little bit ago and just never had the 00:08:45.019 --> 00:08:48.039 chance to use until now. I love a good missing 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:51.179 person story, especially when it comes to mysterious 00:08:51.179 --> 00:08:54.289 circumstances. And I mean, that is i mean that 00:08:54.289 --> 00:08:57.549 in the best way possible i just am fascinated 00:08:57.549 --> 00:09:00.129 by we do not wish for them to happen but when 00:09:00.129 --> 00:09:03.409 they do man we just i do not wish for the anyone 00:09:03.409 --> 00:09:06.710 to go missing or be it to be under mysterious 00:09:06.710 --> 00:09:10.080 circumstances but Do I like a good missing person 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.320 story? So there are a large number of missing 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.159 person cases which fall into this mysterious 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:19.399 category. We've mentioned it a couple of times 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:21.980 in passing. This is an opener, so I'm not going 00:09:21.980 --> 00:09:24.480 to be getting into what makes these disappearances 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.299 mysterious and whatnot, because you could easily 00:09:27.299 --> 00:09:30.360 be one, two or three episodes. And for right 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.500 now, I'll just refer you to David Palladis as 00:09:33.500 --> 00:09:35.799 we've referenced him in the past. And with that 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.110 being said, I did stumble upon on a weird article. 00:09:39.429 --> 00:09:41.190 I love the fact that we have mentioned David 00:09:41.190 --> 00:09:44.210 Politis at least five times now and just like 00:09:44.210 --> 00:09:47.529 refuse to do an episode. No, it's a lot to undertake. 00:09:47.830 --> 00:09:50.129 We can allude to it in the future. We will do 00:09:50.129 --> 00:09:51.970 one in the future. It's just that one's going 00:09:51.970 --> 00:09:54.289 to be a huge undertaking. I think there's a few 00:09:54.289 --> 00:09:56.190 episodes that we want to do that are just going 00:09:56.190 --> 00:09:58.610 to be such a huge undertaking that is going to 00:09:58.610 --> 00:10:00.970 take us a while to research and to get it to 00:10:00.970 --> 00:10:03.370 an episode we'd be happy with. Yeah, that's the 00:10:03.370 --> 00:10:05.710 hard part. When you know enough about it, you're 00:10:05.710 --> 00:10:07.470 worried about putting anything out there that's 00:10:07.470 --> 00:10:10.610 not perfect. Yeah, this one I kind of had that 00:10:10.610 --> 00:10:12.289 feeling on this one, but I think I did a good 00:10:12.289 --> 00:10:18.509 enough job. And that's what we Good enough. Okay, 00:10:18.649 --> 00:10:22.490 so this article's from 2019. So it is a few years 00:10:22.490 --> 00:10:25.009 ago now. It's dated. It's three years ago, but 00:10:25.009 --> 00:10:27.889 still worth a mention. It's pretty cool. Topical 00:10:27.889 --> 00:10:32.190 news chat. Yeah. Like three years old. Yeah. 00:10:32.309 --> 00:10:35.389 Well, you'll see when I say it. But and why not? 00:10:35.490 --> 00:10:37.990 The setup is literally what we see in most of 00:10:37.990 --> 00:10:41.049 these mysterious missing people cases and with 00:10:41.049 --> 00:10:43.929 David Polatus. So this is Casey Hathaway, who 00:10:43.929 --> 00:10:46.389 is three years old and was playing with another 00:10:46.389 --> 00:10:48.809 with other children in his grandmother's yard 00:10:48.809 --> 00:10:52.230 when he completely vanished in Earnall, North 00:10:52.230 --> 00:10:55.539 Carolina. gone. The search had setbacks due to 00:10:55.539 --> 00:10:58.220 bad weather once he went missing including heavy 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:01.220 rain and wind. The terrain was treacherous and 00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:03.340 the areas they needed to search were flooded 00:11:03.340 --> 00:11:05.460 and filled with sinkholes. The professionally 00:11:05.460 --> 00:11:08.120 trained searchers were having trouble navigating 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:11.720 safely. Two days later they found Casey 40 to 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:15.259 50 yards deep into the woods from his grandmother's 00:11:15.259 --> 00:11:17.419 yard where he was playing. He was soaking wet, 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:20.139 cold and tangled in thorn bushes calling for 00:11:20.139 --> 00:11:22.600 his mother. The searchers had to wade through 00:11:22.509 --> 00:11:25.870 nearly waist -deep water to get to him. And what 00:11:25.870 --> 00:11:28.870 happened to Casey you ask? Well Casey recounted 00:11:28.870 --> 00:11:31.470 to his family that he was taken care of by a 00:11:31.470 --> 00:11:33.970 bear for two days and the authorities shared 00:11:33.970 --> 00:11:37.490 that there is no sign of abduction and that's 00:11:37.490 --> 00:11:41.029 what Casey had stuck to in a story when he left. 00:11:41.450 --> 00:11:44.830 Would a bear abduction show the same signs that 00:11:44.830 --> 00:11:47.190 police would be looking for? I don't know that 00:11:47.190 --> 00:11:50.779 they would fully qualify Probably yes. What's 00:11:50.779 --> 00:11:53.179 the alert that they give when children are abducted? 00:11:53.419 --> 00:11:55.399 Amber. Amber alert, okay. It would be a brown 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:57.580 alert for a bear. Well, it might still be an 00:11:57.580 --> 00:11:59.179 amber alert, but you'd have to be on the lookout 00:11:59.179 --> 00:12:02.799 for a bear. Editor's note, the correct term is 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:06.299 an amber alert. Yeah. I don't really like this 00:12:06.299 --> 00:12:08.360 bear in that when he was done with this child, 00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:11.600 he just chucked it into a rose bush. Yeah, to 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.659 be found like in an area that nobody could really 00:12:14.659 --> 00:12:17.460 get to easily. But yeah, that's what happened 00:12:17.460 --> 00:12:20.740 to Casey. I just I stumbled upon a news article 00:12:20.740 --> 00:12:23.899 quite a while ago saying that this kid went missing 00:12:23.899 --> 00:12:26.360 under mysterious circumstances. And he said that 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:29.000 he was taken care of by a bear. And I've just 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:31.360 always wanted to talk about it. And now I've 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:34.679 talked about it. So. Oh, good. And that's it. 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:37.549 That's the opener. Any closing opener thoughts? 00:12:37.970 --> 00:12:39.830 No, because I need to get into this episode. 00:12:39.990 --> 00:12:42.629 I got 10 pages of notes to go over. Oh my gosh. 00:12:42.789 --> 00:12:49.330 OK. So let's get going. OK, quick. From the unexplained 00:12:49.330 --> 00:12:51.990 to the mundane, come join us on a journey to 00:12:51.990 --> 00:13:00.179 the fringe. Hello and welcome. 2. Journey to 00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:02.860 the Fringe For liability purposes, I am now going 00:13:02.860 --> 00:13:05.259 to inform you all that you are not legally required 00:13:05.259 --> 00:13:07.259 to listen to this episode. It's more of a moral 00:13:07.259 --> 00:13:10.759 obligation. We are your now liability -absolved 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:14.309 hosts. Taylor and Chelsea. And today we are going 00:13:14.309 --> 00:13:17.549 to be airing some of the laundry of those horse 00:13:17.549 --> 00:13:20.789 boys once again. We have touched on the Royal 00:13:20.789 --> 00:13:23.029 Canadian Mounted Police in the past when we talked 00:13:23.029 --> 00:13:25.970 about Gabriel Wartman's rampage and the weird 00:13:25.970 --> 00:13:28.549 things that have popped up in there. And today 00:13:28.549 --> 00:13:31.909 we're going to talk about one of the RCMP's lesser 00:13:31.909 --> 00:13:35.590 known, but still dangerous practices that they 00:13:35.590 --> 00:13:38.789 use when they're doing investigations into crimes. 00:13:38.870 --> 00:13:41.649 And that is the Mr. Biggin. investigation. Now 00:13:41.649 --> 00:13:44.990 this is one that generally the RCMP really tries 00:13:44.990 --> 00:13:47.309 to downplay. They don't put a lot of news out 00:13:47.309 --> 00:13:49.809 with regards to it. I think I have alluded to 00:13:49.809 --> 00:13:52.549 this before, but I finally put the time in and 00:13:52.549 --> 00:13:54.769 we're going to talk about what this investigation 00:13:54.769 --> 00:13:57.970 is, cases that have come from it, and really 00:13:57.970 --> 00:14:00.970 where we stand now with them in society. Okay, 00:14:00.990 --> 00:14:03.789 I'm excited. And we did allude to the Mr. Big 00:14:03.789 --> 00:14:07.629 episode in our Gabriel Wortmann case episode, 00:14:07.629 --> 00:14:11.370 I think. So ask questions as we go, because this 00:14:11.370 --> 00:14:15.029 will likely be confusing and there may be legal 00:14:15.029 --> 00:14:18.129 terms used that you won't know what they are. 00:14:18.149 --> 00:14:20.929 So if you don't know, just ask. OK, I'll keep 00:14:20.929 --> 00:14:23.090 us all on track, everybody. We're in this together. 00:14:23.230 --> 00:14:25.230 So without further ado, we're going to start 00:14:25.230 --> 00:14:29.389 this right off with what is a Mr. Big Case? And 00:14:29.389 --> 00:14:32.570 that is a police investigation that usually places 00:14:32.570 --> 00:14:35.289 a suspect, typically someone socially isolated 00:14:35.289 --> 00:14:38.190 and financially disadvantaged under extended 00:14:38.190 --> 00:14:41.490 surveillance, typically for weeks. Why the RCMP 00:14:41.490 --> 00:14:43.269 have targeted these people is because they believe 00:14:43.269 --> 00:14:45.070 that they have committed a crime that they are 00:14:45.070 --> 00:14:47.830 investigating. Having learned about the suspect's 00:14:47.830 --> 00:14:51.169 personalities and habits, the RCMP develop an 00:14:51.169 --> 00:14:54.470 interactive scenario. Pretending to encounter 00:14:54.470 --> 00:14:57.889 the suspect by happenstance, an undercover operative 00:14:57.889 --> 00:15:01.330 solicits a small favour from the suspect. Exploiting 00:15:01.330 --> 00:15:03.710 the acquaintance ship, the operative soon offers 00:15:03.710 --> 00:15:06.330 entertainment, gifts, companionship, meals, and 00:15:06.330 --> 00:15:09.519 eventually employment. The undercover operative 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:12.639 pays the suspect appreciable monies for petty 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.600 tasks such as counting cash or making deliveries 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:17.779 associated with fictitious criminal activities. 00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:20.899 As these tasks grow in importance and frequency, 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.379 the suspect is treated as an up -and -comer in 00:15:24.379 --> 00:15:28.620 a criminal organization. And this criminal organization 00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:32.960 is completely fabricated by the RCMP and is completely 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:36.120 made up by undercover operatives working for 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:39.639 the RCMP. When many as 50 operatives may be involved, 00:15:39.980 --> 00:15:42.399 crafting a steady escalation and association, 00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:45.019 influence and pressure leading up to the creation 00:15:45.019 --> 00:15:47.379 of an atmosphere in which it is deemed appropriate 00:15:47.379 --> 00:15:51.100 to encourage the target to confess. Okay, I feel 00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:53.059 like I'm following it properly, but I'm just 00:15:53.059 --> 00:15:55.559 not connecting the dots here. Okay, eventually 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:58.340 the suspect is introduced to a character that 00:15:58.340 --> 00:16:01.019 fictitiously or at least behind the scenes is 00:16:01.019 --> 00:16:05.000 known as Mr. Big. He's the fictitious crime organization 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:09.299 kingpin and is actually a skilled police interrogator, 00:16:09.740 --> 00:16:13.299 employing enticement and threats. Mr. Big tells 00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:16.820 the suspect of receiving from the police incriminating 00:16:16.820 --> 00:16:19.460 information about the suspect, whose impending 00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:22.600 arrest threatens the gang, and which is why Mr. 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:25.379 Big must know the unsolved crime's details. Mr. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.139 Big may offer to clean up the situation by framing 00:16:28.139 --> 00:16:31.200 someone else, perhaps a terminally ill Confederate 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.519 willing to take the fall for the gang, or Mr. 00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:36.000 Big might claim that a mole within the police 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.360 department can tamper with incriminating evidence. 00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:41.409 Sometimes the confession is demanded to show 00:16:41.409 --> 00:16:44.610 good faith, loyalty, or trustworthiness, or serve 00:16:44.610 --> 00:16:47.850 as insurance to Mr. Big. And the final meeting 00:16:47.850 --> 00:16:51.789 is usually recorded. Once the police either obtain 00:16:51.789 --> 00:16:54.409 a confession or become convinced of the suspect's 00:16:54.409 --> 00:16:56.490 innocence, the lavish left -style and elaborate 00:16:56.490 --> 00:16:59.429 underworld evaporate. And where a confession 00:16:59.429 --> 00:17:01.830 has been obtained, the suspect is arrested. The 00:17:01.830 --> 00:17:04.450 Mr. Big technique is often a last resort in cold 00:17:04.450 --> 00:17:07.589 cases. or where the police's strong suspicion 00:17:07.589 --> 00:17:10.269 is paired with insufficient evidence, the Mr. 00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:13.410 Big technique has been used to secure convictions 00:17:13.410 --> 00:17:16.470 in hundreds of cases and has been highly effective 00:17:16.470 --> 00:17:18.769 in obtaining confessions from guilty suspects. 00:17:19.029 --> 00:17:21.990 Still, this technique also gives some innocent 00:17:21.990 --> 00:17:24.609 suspects compelling motivation to remain in criminal 00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:27.210 organization to maintain the new lifestyle and 00:17:27.210 --> 00:17:29.650 new friends. Falsely confessing to Mr. Big then 00:17:29.650 --> 00:17:33.670 seems like an acceptable risk. Basically, they're 00:17:33.670 --> 00:17:37.009 just elaborately setting up a drug cartel or 00:17:37.009 --> 00:17:39.289 something. Not necessarily drug cartel. It can 00:17:39.289 --> 00:17:42.190 be anything. They target the person that they 00:17:42.190 --> 00:17:44.509 take first off is going to be somebody who they 00:17:44.509 --> 00:17:46.990 believe is susceptible to this type of carousing. 00:17:47.130 --> 00:17:49.650 Seems like a lot of effort. It's a ton of effort 00:17:49.650 --> 00:17:52.450 and we're going to get into that. And they tailor 00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:55.329 the criminal activity to the person that they're 00:17:55.329 --> 00:17:58.690 actually going after. Like if somebody's selling 00:17:58.690 --> 00:18:02.809 illegal hubcaps. Like Mr. Big is like the kingpin 00:18:02.809 --> 00:18:05.609 in this like upper. If somebody's a mechanic, 00:18:05.970 --> 00:18:08.349 then they might say like, hey, we're going to 00:18:08.349 --> 00:18:11.130 hire you to take these hubcaps off these cars. 00:18:11.410 --> 00:18:14.009 Probably a terrible example. Sorry for our mechanics 00:18:14.009 --> 00:18:15.930 out there in the world. And these are stolen 00:18:15.930 --> 00:18:18.690 cars. So they bring them and they make them take 00:18:18.690 --> 00:18:21.190 these hubcaps off these cars and they pay them 00:18:21.190 --> 00:18:23.769 the entire time to do it quite well. And then 00:18:23.769 --> 00:18:26.089 they ship them around Canada to do it in their 00:18:26.089 --> 00:18:29.910 little warehouses. That's so crazy. That's like 00:18:29.910 --> 00:18:32.930 such an elaborate scheme. OK, I hope it's worth 00:18:32.930 --> 00:18:35.589 whatever they're setting these guys up for. Like, 00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:38.089 are they mob bosses? We're going to see who these 00:18:38.089 --> 00:18:41.509 people are as we go. Now, this is a made in Canada 00:18:41.509 --> 00:18:44.450 technique, too. It has been exported to some 00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:47.289 places, but this is pretty much everybody knows 00:18:47.289 --> 00:18:50.210 it as the Canadian Mr. Big investigation technique. 00:18:50.230 --> 00:18:53.190 OK, so it didn't come from like Mongolia or like 00:18:53.190 --> 00:18:56.309 Afghanistan or something? No. Okay. The first 00:18:56.309 --> 00:18:59.029 case we're going to talk about is a man by the 00:18:59.029 --> 00:19:01.509 name of Rose. It went through to the Supreme 00:19:01.509 --> 00:19:04.470 Court of Canada, known as R .V. Rose. I didn't 00:19:04.470 --> 00:19:07.470 write down the citation for it, but you can find 00:19:07.470 --> 00:19:09.589 R .V. Rose SCC. That's fine. I'm sure we already 00:19:09.589 --> 00:19:12.569 know it's common knowledge. Yeah. In October 00:19:12.569 --> 00:19:17.710 of 1983, Andrea Sherp and Byrne Gorick were murdered 00:19:17.710 --> 00:19:21.960 in Chetwind. In 1991, Andy Rose was convicted 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:24.420 of these killings, relying almost exclusively 00:19:24.420 --> 00:19:27.380 on testimony from a lady who claimed she saw 00:19:27.380 --> 00:19:30.180 him the night of the murder, quote, drunk and 00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:32.380 covered in blood, claiming to have killed two 00:19:32.380 --> 00:19:34.819 people, unquote. Sentenced to a minimum of 15 00:19:34.819 --> 00:19:36.960 years in prison, the conviction was overturned 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.779 on a technicality in 1992. But Rose remained 00:19:40.779 --> 00:19:44.240 in prison when a new trial had been immediately 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:48.240 ordered. In 1994, Rose was again sentenced to 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:50.819 a minimum of 15 years in prison, again almost 00:19:50.819 --> 00:19:52.880 exclusively on the testimony of the lady who 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.220 claimed to see him in Chetwind, and his next 00:19:55.220 --> 00:19:58.759 appeal was denied in 1996. Rose was released 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:02.539 on bail in 1997 when his second conviction was 00:20:02.539 --> 00:20:05.319 overturned on a technicality. Mounting evidence 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:08.019 against a possible third conviction, including 00:20:08.019 --> 00:20:11.359 the witness against Rose being off on her timing 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:13.980 by at least two weeks, and a man in California 00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.420 committing suicide after confessing to his wife 00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:19.220 with numerous consistent details to murdering 00:20:19.220 --> 00:20:22.400 two people near Chetwind in October of 1993, 00:20:22.779 --> 00:20:25.480 complicated the development for the Crown's attorney's 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:29.819 refiling. In January of 1999, an undercover operative 00:20:29.819 --> 00:20:33.079 for the RCMP contacted Rose to gain his trust 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:39.480 in Ho - In the next eight months, the investigators 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:42.980 befriended Rose. Rose was seduced into illegal 00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:46.859 activities for which he got about $5 ,900 cash. 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.380 Pause for a second. What was their, like, Mr. 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:53.480 Big scenario crime ring that they, like, cooped 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:55.500 him in for? Like, is it, like, murdering more 00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:57.740 people or what did they think would appeal to 00:20:57.740 --> 00:21:01.299 him? I don't know in this case. OK. I do know 00:21:01.299 --> 00:21:03.720 in quite a few of the next ones, but this one 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.319 was a mystery for me because they didn't really 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:08.599 talk about the investigation itself, the Mr. 00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:11.400 Big program. They just talk about. the outcome 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:13.420 of it okay i was just curious because like what 00:21:13.420 --> 00:21:16.019 do you do if it's just like not just murder but 00:21:16.019 --> 00:21:18.160 like they're not operating anything illegally 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:20.440 they just like murdered somebody what straight 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:23.140 up it is they say i need to deliver this box 00:21:23.140 --> 00:21:26.380 it's too grand for you to drive it across town 00:21:26.380 --> 00:21:29.859 and they literally put fake drugs in it so that 00:21:29.859 --> 00:21:32.119 you feel like if you opened it there's drugs 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:33.779 in it and you know you're doing something illegal 00:21:33.779 --> 00:21:36.160 but they're not really drugs what the hell okay 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.420 first of all if somebody said take this well 00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:42.319 i don't know, I feel like for $2 ,000 I do it. 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.359 And that's just so you know, they set it up so 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.019 you become friends with the undercover officer 00:21:48.019 --> 00:21:50.819 prior to him confronting you with this. Yeah, 00:21:50.940 --> 00:21:54.259 I would do it. So again, he got paid. During 00:21:54.259 --> 00:21:57.720 this time, $5 ,900, which would be equivalent 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:01.660 today to about $8 ,720. Yeah, I'd do it too. 00:22:01.900 --> 00:22:05.140 In 2022 dollars, that's about $50 ,000. Wow. 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.619 Just kidding. Inflation's a bitch. I was just 00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:11.099 going to say, like, holy shit. After eight months, 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.259 the gang told him that they could gather information 00:22:14.259 --> 00:22:16.720 about his upcoming case and change the evidence 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.519 for him so he would not have to go back to prison 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.619 or even to court. However, the support would 00:22:22.619 --> 00:22:25.259 only be granted if he became a recognized member 00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:28.000 of the gang, and it would be important to impress 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.839 Mr. Big. At the meeting with Mr. Big, in July 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:34.640 of 1999, Rose repeatedly reaffirmed his innocence. 00:22:34.859 --> 00:22:37.759 Then Mr. Big made it clear to him that he wanted 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:40.680 to hear a confession, and Rose, known for his 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.380 alcohol abuse, should consider this with a beer. 00:22:43.539 --> 00:22:46.519 After a few beers, Rose confessed, and based 00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:49.140 on his confession, the Crown filed for a third 00:22:49.140 --> 00:22:55.079 trial. What? This is insanity. OK. The third 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.900 trial collapsed in 2001 and proceedings against 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:00.420 Rose were stayed with the ability for the Crown 00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:02.660 to refail charges to a court. Rose's innocence 00:23:02.660 --> 00:23:05.359 was proven due to lack of DNA evidence and he 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.000 was acquitted. As it should have gone, I feel 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:11.500 like I'm no lawyer. Yeah. I know nothing about. 00:23:11.740 --> 00:23:13.900 Super sketchy considering somebody committed 00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:16.539 suicide immediately after saying basically that 00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:19.660 he did kill these people. What the fuck? And 00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:21.859 another one from almost the exact same timeline. 00:23:22.109 --> 00:23:26.609 In 1995, the body of William Bedford, a cocaine 00:23:26.609 --> 00:23:29.849 dealer, was found duct -taped to a tree in Hope, 00:23:29.970 --> 00:23:33.029 BC. He had been shot in the head. Three years 00:23:33.029 --> 00:23:35.630 later, undercover police set up a fake criminal 00:23:35.630 --> 00:23:38.730 organization and gave Mr. Simmons, then a homeless 00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:43.289 and drug addict individual, $1 million in cash 00:23:43.289 --> 00:23:46.190 as a demonstration of the enterprise's seriousness, 00:23:46.569 --> 00:23:49.490 his affidavit says. They brought him to the supposed 00:23:49.490 --> 00:23:52.460 crime boss, Mr. Big, to supply details with the 00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:55.019 killing of Mr. Bedford as a condition of becoming 00:23:55.019 --> 00:23:58.500 a member. In 2000, a jury found Mr. Simmons guilty 00:23:58.500 --> 00:24:00.740 of first degree murder, which carries a mandatory 00:24:00.740 --> 00:24:03.440 sentence of life in prison with no chance of 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:06.279 parole for 25 years. In 2002, the B .C. Court 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:08.660 of Appeal upheld the conviction and the Supreme 00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:11.240 Court refused a year later to hear his appeal 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.680 at no time did Mr. Simmons raise issues of being 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:16.180 illegally manipulated by the police tactics because 00:24:16.180 --> 00:24:18.259 his lawyers say there was no legal basis at the 00:24:18.259 --> 00:24:21.539 time for doing so. If that were me, all of a 00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:24.299 sudden, like, I am being paid all this money 00:24:24.299 --> 00:24:26.660 and someone's like, if you want to continue to 00:24:26.660 --> 00:24:28.980 be paid this money and become a member of our 00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:32.220 club, but I need this confession from you, I'd 00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:36.559 probably be like, why? I feel like I don't want 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:40.039 to confess to anybody. We will get into that 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:43.160 part because that's a big portion of this entire 00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:45.640 story. But I just want to focus on that last 00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:48.779 part, where there was no legal basis for overturning 00:24:48.779 --> 00:24:51.259 this, and this is what's called the pre -heart 00:24:51.259 --> 00:24:55.579 days of Mr. Big. Despite the use of violence, 00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:59.079 derogatory language, and simulated crime by police 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:01.960 agents in these Mr. Big operations, the confessions 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.319 obtained still managed to slip through the cracks 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:07.079 of an exclusionary rule in existence at the time. 00:25:07.210 --> 00:25:09.730 none of the following exclusionary rules applied. 00:25:09.869 --> 00:25:12.470 The common law, confession rule, because the 00:25:12.470 --> 00:25:15.230 suspect did not know that he was talking to a 00:25:15.230 --> 00:25:17.849 person in authority. Section seven of the charter, 00:25:18.069 --> 00:25:20.569 because the suspect was not in police detention. 00:25:20.730 --> 00:25:23.009 And hearsay, because it fell under the party 00:25:23.009 --> 00:25:25.710 admission exception, which is hearsay is okay 00:25:25.710 --> 00:25:28.750 if the person is not acting in their own interest, 00:25:28.849 --> 00:25:31.250 and in fact works against their best interests. 00:25:31.410 --> 00:25:33.430 Or the law of entrapment, because the suspect 00:25:33.430 --> 00:25:36.089 was not charged with an offense committed during 00:25:36.089 --> 00:25:38.730 his invo - with the fictitious organization. 00:25:38.910 --> 00:25:41.789 It was not a product of chance that Mr. Big Operations 00:25:41.789 --> 00:25:44.849 somehow managed to circumvent the letter of all 00:25:44.849 --> 00:25:47.569 these laws, rather it was by design. It would 00:25:47.569 --> 00:25:50.309 have to. When you're submitting Mr. Big evidence 00:25:50.309 --> 00:25:52.890 to the court, you're not submitting it as a confession, 00:25:53.130 --> 00:25:56.289 you're submitting it as this guy told me while 00:25:56.289 --> 00:25:58.670 we were sitting over a beer that he committed 00:25:58.670 --> 00:26:01.329 these murders. That's against his best interest 00:26:01.329 --> 00:26:04.289 to be saying that, so it's okay to admit that 00:26:04.289 --> 00:26:07.339 as hearsay. Despite the fact that everybody involved 00:26:07.339 --> 00:26:09.420 is a police officer. Yeah. And they're setting 00:26:09.420 --> 00:26:11.819 them up, essentially. Yeah. A lot of things wrong 00:26:11.819 --> 00:26:14.559 with it. That brings us into the next case of 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:17.119 Hart, H -A -R -T. If you're looking for it's 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:20.180 RV Hart. It's very famous. Type it into Canley 00:26:20.180 --> 00:26:24.799 C -A -N -L -I -I dot org Hart H -A -R -T S -C 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:27.980 -C. And it's gonna be a really sad story, so 00:26:27.980 --> 00:26:31.539 just brace yourselves for this part, okay? Hart's 00:26:31.539 --> 00:26:34.519 twin daughters drowned on August 4th of 2002. 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:37.519 Both of them? Both of them. Hart claimed that 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:39.980 he had taken the girls, Krista and Karen, to 00:26:39.980 --> 00:26:42.119 Little Harbor where there was a small wharf. 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.920 Krista fell off the wharf and Hart, who could 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:48.019 not swim, panicked and left to go get help, leaving 00:26:48.019 --> 00:26:50.700 the other child. In a later interview, Hart claimed 00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:52.819 that he had a small seizure at the time that 00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:55.930 Krista fell into the water. Karen ostensibly 00:26:55.930 --> 00:26:58.829 fell in the water during Hart's absence, and 00:26:58.829 --> 00:27:01.730 he drove home and returned with his wife. Krista 00:27:01.730 --> 00:27:04.150 was found alive but died at the hospital, and 00:27:04.150 --> 00:27:06.829 Karen was pronounced dead at the scene. The Mr. 00:27:07.089 --> 00:27:10.470 Big operation began in 2002. Preliminary surveillance 00:27:10.470 --> 00:27:13.410 revealed that Hart was socially isolated, had 00:27:13.410 --> 00:27:15.869 few friends, and went everywhere with his wife. 00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:19.880 He was also on social insurance with only a grade 00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:23.539 4 education and had a history of seizures which 00:27:23.539 --> 00:27:26.720 became more frequent after a car crash in 1998. 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:29.180 The first contact took place when he was paid 00:27:29.180 --> 00:27:31.599 for assisting in finding an operative's sister. 00:27:31.819 --> 00:27:34.619 He was then asked to make some truck deliveries 00:27:34.619 --> 00:27:37.059 for which he was well paid. A friendship with 00:27:37.059 --> 00:27:39.779 his operative developed. He began dealing in 00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:42.859 fake credit cards, forged passports, and counterfeit 00:27:42.859 --> 00:27:46.250 casino chips. Hart was made to believe that the 00:27:46.250 --> 00:27:49.089 gang was nationwide with branches in Vancouver, 00:27:49.730 --> 00:27:53.450 Montreal, and Halifax. As time went on, the seriousness 00:27:53.450 --> 00:27:55.769 of the illegal activities increased along with 00:27:55.769 --> 00:27:58.109 the lucritiveness of the payoffs. He and his 00:27:58.109 --> 00:28:00.869 wife were treated to luxurious trips around the 00:28:00.869 --> 00:28:03.529 country, extravagant shopping sprees, and expensive 00:28:03.529 --> 00:28:06.029 dinners. Hart aspired to join the gang as a full 00:28:06.029 --> 00:28:08.450 -time member. Well yeah, you'd have to be dumb 00:28:08.450 --> 00:28:11.650 to not want to. In total, Hart participated in 00:28:11.650 --> 00:28:15.130 63 what they call scenarios with the undercover 00:28:15.130 --> 00:28:18.329 officers and was paid more than $15 ,000 for 00:28:18.329 --> 00:28:20.970 the work that he did for the organization. As 00:28:20.970 --> 00:28:23.549 part of that work, Hart was also sent on several 00:28:23.549 --> 00:28:26.470 trips across Canada, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, 00:28:26.710 --> 00:28:29.069 Toronto, and Vancouver, and Hart often stayed 00:28:29.069 --> 00:28:31.210 in hotels and occasionally dined in expensive 00:28:31.210 --> 00:28:34.049 restaurants and during these trips, all at the 00:28:34.049 --> 00:28:36.430 fictitious organization's expense. Over time, 00:28:36.609 --> 00:28:39.569 the undercover officers became Hart's best friends 00:28:39.569 --> 00:28:43.650 and Hart came to view them as his brothers. According 00:28:43.650 --> 00:28:45.509 to one of the undercover officers, during this 00:28:45.509 --> 00:28:47.250 time frame, Hart made a bold statement which 00:28:47.250 --> 00:28:49.150 he confessed to having drowned his daughters. 00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:53.160 The operation culminated with a meeting akin 00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:56.119 to a job interview between Hart and Mr. Big, 00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:58.519 the man purportedly at the helm of the criminal 00:28:58.519 --> 00:29:01.579 organization. During their meeting, Mr. Big interrogated 00:29:01.579 --> 00:29:03.480 Hart about the death of his daughter, seeking 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.180 a confession from him. After initially denying 00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:08.460 responsibility, Hart confessed to drowning his 00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:11.200 daughters. Two days later, Hart went to the scene 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.420 of the drowning with an undercover officer and 00:29:13.420 --> 00:29:15.579 explained how he had pushed his daughter into 00:29:15.579 --> 00:29:18.190 the water. He was arrested shortly after. At 00:29:18.190 --> 00:29:20.970 trial, Hart's confessions were admitted into 00:29:20.970 --> 00:29:23.930 evidence. The trial judge denied Hart's request 00:29:23.930 --> 00:29:26.390 for permission to testify with the public excluded 00:29:26.390 --> 00:29:28.420 from the courtroom. The majority of the Court 00:29:28.420 --> 00:29:30.559 of Appeal allowed Hart's appeal and ordered a 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.359 new trial. The Court of Appeal unanimously held 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:35.519 that the trial judge erred in refusing to allow 00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:37.519 Hart to testify outside of the presence of the 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:39.859 public, and a majority of the court also concluded 00:29:39.859 --> 00:29:42.819 that Mr. Big Operations had breached Hart's right 00:29:42.819 --> 00:29:45.359 to silence under Section 7 of the Charter. Which 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:47.460 again, is if you're with police you don't have 00:29:47.460 --> 00:29:50.480 to talk to them. The majority excluded two of 00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:52.799 Hart's confessions, the one to Mr. Big and the 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:54.500 one to the undercover officer at the scene of 00:29:54.500 --> 00:29:56.299 the drowning, however the majority concluded 00:29:56.299 --> 00:29:59.299 that Hart's bald confession was admissible and 00:29:59.299 --> 00:30:02.019 ordered a new trial. This is where the actual 00:30:02.019 --> 00:30:04.200 wording of the case comes down from the Supreme 00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:07.039 Court. Mr. Big confessions are invariably accompanied 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:09.420 by evidence that shows the accused willingly 00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:12.599 participated in simulated crime and was eager 00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:15.740 to join a criminal organization. This evidence 00:30:15.740 --> 00:30:18.920 sullies the accused's character, and in doing 00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.440 so carries with it the risk of prejudice. Experiencing 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.299 candidate elsewhere teaches that wrongful convictions 00:30:25.299 --> 00:30:28.180 are often traceable to evidence that is either 00:30:28.180 --> 00:30:31.160 unreliable or prejudicial. When the two combine, 00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:34.460 they make for a potent mix. and the risk of wrongful 00:30:34.460 --> 00:30:37.400 conviction increases accordingly. Wrongful convictions 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:40.319 are a blight on our system. We must take reasonable 00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:42.819 steps to prevent them from ever occurring. Mr. 00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:44.700 Big Operations also run the risk of becoming 00:30:44.700 --> 00:30:47.700 abusive. Undercover officers provide their target 00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:50.680 with inducements including cash rewards to encourage 00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:53.930 them to confess. They also cultivate an aura 00:30:53.930 --> 00:30:57.049 of violence by showing that those who betray 00:30:57.049 --> 00:30:59.750 the criminal organization are met with violence. 00:31:00.069 --> 00:31:02.950 There is a risk these operations may become coercive. 00:31:03.049 --> 00:31:05.430 Thought must be given to the kind of police tactics 00:31:05.430 --> 00:31:08.349 we as a society are prepared to condone in the 00:31:08.349 --> 00:31:11.430 pursuit of truth. Under existing law, Mr. Big 00:31:11.430 --> 00:31:14.190 Confessions are routinely admitted under the 00:31:14.190 --> 00:31:16.589 party admissions exception to the hearsay rule. 00:31:16.890 --> 00:31:20.009 Attempts to extend existing legal protections 00:31:20.009 --> 00:31:23.059 to Mr. Big Operations have failed. This court 00:31:23.059 --> 00:31:26.339 has held that Mr. Big Operations do not engage 00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:29.380 the right to silence because the accused is not 00:31:29.380 --> 00:31:31.579 detained by the police at the time he or she 00:31:31.579 --> 00:31:33.940 confesses. And the confession rule, which requires 00:31:33.940 --> 00:31:36.180 the Crown to prove an accused's statement to 00:31:36.180 --> 00:31:38.940 a person in authority is voluntary, is inoperative 00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:41.619 because the accused does not know that Mr. Big 00:31:41.619 --> 00:31:44.759 is a police officer when he confesses. In sum, 00:31:44.910 --> 00:31:48.210 The law as it stands provides insufficient protection 00:31:48.210 --> 00:31:51.329 to accused persons who confess during Mr. Big 00:31:51.329 --> 00:31:54.549 Operations. A two -pronged response is needed 00:31:54.549 --> 00:31:57.809 to address the concerns with reliability, prejudice, 00:31:58.230 --> 00:32:00.730 and police misconduct raised by these operations. 00:32:01.170 --> 00:32:03.910 Confessions arising from Mr. Big Operations would 00:32:03.910 --> 00:32:07.289 henceforth be considered presumptively inadmissible 00:32:07.289 --> 00:32:11.470 subject to a two -pronged admissibility analysis. 00:32:11.789 --> 00:32:15.200 The first prong requires recognizing a new common 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.380 law rule of evidence. This is actually a really 00:32:17.380 --> 00:32:19.940 big deal. You don't get new rules of evidence 00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:22.599 very often. Under this rule, where the state 00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:25.339 recruits an accused into a fictitious criminal 00:32:25.339 --> 00:32:28.319 organization and seek to elicit a confession 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:31.119 from him, any confession made by the accused 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:34.619 to the state during the operation should be treated 00:32:34.619 --> 00:32:38.000 as presumptively inadmissible. This presumption 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.759 of inadmissibility is overcome when the Crown 00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:43.380 can establish on a balance of probabilities that 00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:46.339 the probative value of the confession outweighs 00:32:46.339 --> 00:32:49.400 its prejudicial effect. The probative value of 00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.359 a Mr. Big confession is a function of its reliability. 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.240 In assessing the reliability of a Mr. Big confession, 00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:57.599 courts must first look to the circumstances in 00:32:57.599 --> 00:32:59.779 which the statement was made. These circumstances 00:32:59.779 --> 00:33:01.839 include, but are not strictly limited to, the 00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:03.900 length of the operation, the number of interactions 00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:06.440 between the police and the accused, the nature 00:33:06.349 --> 00:33:08.970 of the relationship between the undercover officers 00:33:08.970 --> 00:33:12.369 and the accused, the nature and extent of the 00:33:12.369 --> 00:33:14.750 inducement offered, the presence of any threats, 00:33:15.130 --> 00:33:17.150 the conduct of the interrogation itself, and 00:33:17.150 --> 00:33:19.089 the personality of the accused, including his 00:33:19.089 --> 00:33:20.910 or her age, sophistication, and mental health. 00:33:21.029 --> 00:33:23.750 The question for the trial judge is whether and 00:33:23.750 --> 00:33:26.730 to what extent the reliability of the confession 00:33:26.730 --> 00:33:29.930 has been called into doubt by the circumstances 00:33:29.930 --> 00:33:33.440 in which it was made. After considering the circumstances 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:35.339 in which the confession was made, the court should 00:33:35.339 --> 00:33:37.279 look to the confession itself for markers of 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:39.279 reliability. Trial judges should consider the 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:41.440 level of detail contained in the confession, 00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:43.559 whether it leads to the discovery of additional 00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:45.539 evidence, whether it identifies any elements 00:33:45.539 --> 00:33:47.940 of the crime that have not been made public, 00:33:48.099 --> 00:33:50.680 or whether it accurately describes mundane details 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.619 of the crime the accused would likely not know 00:33:53.619 --> 00:33:56.809 had he or she not committed it. Confirmatory 00:33:56.809 --> 00:33:58.849 evidence is not hard and fast requirements, but 00:33:58.849 --> 00:34:01.609 where it exists, it can provide a powerful guarantee 00:34:01.609 --> 00:34:04.549 of reliability. The greater the concern raised 00:34:04.549 --> 00:34:06.509 by the circumstances in which the confession 00:34:06.509 --> 00:34:09.190 was made, the more important it will be to find 00:34:09.190 --> 00:34:12.130 markers of reliability in the confession itself 00:34:12.130 --> 00:34:15.280 or the surrounding evidence. Weighing the prejudicial 00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:17.960 effects of a Mr. Big confession is more straightforward 00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:20.840 and a familiar exercise. Trial judges must be 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:23.079 aware that admitting Mr. Big confessions creates 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:26.539 a risk of moral and reasoning prejudice. With 00:34:26.539 --> 00:34:30.079 respect to moral prejudice, the jury learns the 00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:32.539 accused wanted to join a criminal organization 00:34:32.539 --> 00:34:35.059 and committed a host of simulated crimes that 00:34:35.059 --> 00:34:44.579 he believed were real. for this organization 00:34:44.579 --> 00:34:46.639 and that can taint the view of a jury. Yeah, 00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:49.420 completely get that. It's really simple. The 00:34:49.420 --> 00:34:52.179 public would believe that somebody who committed 00:34:52.179 --> 00:34:54.260 a crime is more likely to have also committed 00:34:54.260 --> 00:34:58.050 this. So it's like. An unintentional side of 00:34:58.050 --> 00:35:00.570 not unintentional. Of course, it's intentional 00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:04.130 in setting this up very intend, but it's like 00:35:04.130 --> 00:35:07.289 something some juries might not even be aware 00:35:07.289 --> 00:35:10.750 of that. They're like, oh, well, they are already 00:35:10.750 --> 00:35:13.170 like willing to commit crime. So they must have 00:35:13.170 --> 00:35:15.829 done it. And not only that, they confessed to 00:35:15.829 --> 00:35:17.889 killing someone else while committing a crime. 00:35:17.909 --> 00:35:21.289 Yeah. So it makes it probably more believable 00:35:21.289 --> 00:35:23.929 because they did it while committing crimes. 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:27.019 Yeah, and just so you understand too, the test 00:35:27.019 --> 00:35:29.360 they're laying out now is actually a voir dire. 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:32.079 So that means whether or not this evidence gets 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:35.420 admitted doesn't go to the jury. It goes into 00:35:35.420 --> 00:35:38.940 a different room where the defense and the crown 00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:41.079 talk to the judge about whether or not this will 00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:42.960 actually be accepted. And if it is accepted, 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:46.119 then it comes back into the court and is admitted 00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:49.119 or it's never heard to the jury. OK, this new 00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:51.860 common law rule of evidence goes a long way towards 00:35:51.860 --> 00:35:54.320 addressing the concerns with reliability, prejudice 00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:57.019 and police misconducts that are raised by Mr. 00:35:57.139 --> 00:36:00.150 Big Operations. It squarely tackles the problem 00:36:00.150 --> 00:36:02.730 with reliability and prejudice. In addition, 00:36:03.289 --> 00:36:06.030 it takes account of police misconduct by both 00:36:06.030 --> 00:36:09.050 placing the admissibility onus on the Crown and 00:36:09.050 --> 00:36:11.590 by factoring the conduct of the police into the 00:36:11.590 --> 00:36:14.090 assessment of a Mr. Big Confession's probative 00:36:14.090 --> 00:36:17.030 value. However, the common law rule of evidence 00:36:17.030 --> 00:36:20.230 I have proposed does not provide a complete response 00:36:20.230 --> 00:36:22.389 to the problems raised by Mr. Big Operations. 00:36:22.750 --> 00:36:25.650 On its own, it might suggest that abusive police 00:36:25.650 --> 00:36:28.750 conduct will be forgiven so long as a demonstrably 00:36:28.750 --> 00:36:31.690 reliable confession is ultimately secured. Can 00:36:31.690 --> 00:36:34.730 I just interject here? I had a question about 00:36:34.730 --> 00:36:38.469 hurt. Yes. Why did they choose him to do this 00:36:38.469 --> 00:36:41.150 to? They really suspected that he killed his 00:36:41.150 --> 00:36:44.030 daughters because his story didn't stand up. 00:36:44.110 --> 00:36:46.130 Yeah, and he just seemed like he had a fourth 00:36:46.130 --> 00:36:48.690 education. He had seizures, so he was probably 00:36:48.690 --> 00:36:51.789 like a grade four education. Yeah. Yeah. Like 00:36:51.789 --> 00:36:55.269 more to be like manipulate. Not that all of these 00:36:55.269 --> 00:36:57.909 people are being manipulated, but I read a study. 00:36:57.909 --> 00:37:01.050 It was put in the Manitoba Law Review. It basically 00:37:01.050 --> 00:37:03.210 said, look at all these cases that two thirds 00:37:03.210 --> 00:37:05.550 of these individuals displayed either mental 00:37:05.550 --> 00:37:09.300 health issues, addiction or low IQs. But yeah, 00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:11.960 that basically, I think, outlines the test that 00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:15.179 is laid out in heart. Basically, it is inadmissible 00:37:15.179 --> 00:37:18.519 unless the Crown can prove it has really important 00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:20.880 information in it that needs to be heard by the 00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:24.820 court and that it will not taint the jury's view 00:37:24.820 --> 00:37:27.460 of this character by admitting these cases. The 00:37:27.460 --> 00:37:30.019 second seems harder to do, but the first one, 00:37:30.019 --> 00:37:32.340 if it's a confession, would they not automatically 00:37:32.340 --> 00:37:35.460 just accept that, seeing as it's important information? 00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:38.719 Not necessarily, no, because even with confessions. 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.539 They're not steadfastly admitted into courts 00:37:41.539 --> 00:37:44.780 because you can be signing a confession under 00:37:44.780 --> 00:37:48.659 duress and lied to being propositioned or just 00:37:48.659 --> 00:37:51.119 not knowing exactly what even is in it. Well, 00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:53.440 there's tons of people who give false confessions. 00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:56.480 Yeah, exactly. And that's why if it was a confession, 00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:58.500 there's actually an entire test on whether or 00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:01.139 not a confession is admissible. Oh, that's good 00:38:01.139 --> 00:38:04.380 to know. And that's why prior to this, Mr. Biggs 00:38:04.380 --> 00:38:06.519 fell outside of that and they were just hearsay 00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:08.909 evidence. That's it's a big deal. Right, okay, 00:38:09.130 --> 00:38:11.829 that's a good point. So that is the test that 00:38:11.829 --> 00:38:14.739 heart lays out. To this day, the Mr. Big program 00:38:14.739 --> 00:38:17.119 is still alive and well. What? Yeah, I found 00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:20.719 a case. This started in 2018, and this is a man 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:24.559 by the name of Greg Furtuk. His trial is still 00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:28.400 ongoing, so I don't know how much of Mr. Big's 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:31.199 information is involved in it. As you were telling 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:33.619 the story, I was like, there's no way this is 00:38:33.619 --> 00:38:36.719 legally happening anymore. The RCMP suspected 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:40.639 Greg Furtuk of murdering his then wife, ex -wife 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:43.369 at this point. The broad strokes of the plan 00:38:43.369 --> 00:38:46.630 involved undercover officers posing as criminals 00:38:46.630 --> 00:38:49.170 and convincing Greg to disclose the truth of 00:38:49.170 --> 00:38:51.969 what happened to Shiri. They did this by playing 00:38:51.969 --> 00:38:57.030 out 136 structured interactions known as scenarios 00:38:57.030 --> 00:39:00.090 between the summer of 2018 and late spring of 00:39:00.090 --> 00:39:03.170 2019. The majority were audio recorded and key 00:39:03.170 --> 00:39:05.690 sessions were videotaped. It was called Project 00:39:05.690 --> 00:39:10.070 Fiston. July 2018, two undercover police officers 00:39:10.070 --> 00:39:13.179 set up a stand in an off -scale liquor store 00:39:13.179 --> 00:39:16.539 in Saskatchewan that Furtuk frequented and the 00:39:16.539 --> 00:39:19.000 officers pretended to be pollsters doing market 00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:21.639 research on customers drinking habits. People 00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:23.960 who filled out a survey were entered into a draw. 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:26.619 First prize was an all -expense paid trip to 00:39:26.619 --> 00:39:29.739 Cancun, Mexico. Second prize was a trip to Canmore, 00:39:29.739 --> 00:39:33.380 Alberta and third prize concert tickets in Saskatoon. 00:39:33.800 --> 00:39:36.079 Greg entered with his girlfriend Doris and won 00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:39.860 second prize. Furtuk did not know that all the 00:39:39.860 --> 00:39:42.420 other couples who also won second prize and were 00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:45.460 going to camp more, were all undercover RCMP 00:39:45.460 --> 00:39:49.900 officers. The sting was tailored to take advantage 00:39:49.900 --> 00:39:52.539 of Craig's interests and background. For instance, 00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:55.659 officers knew that he had worked on CN Rails, 00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:58.320 so criminal ventures involving transportation 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.420 were focused on. Craig learned that his fellow 00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:04.380 contestants and their friends who they introduced 00:40:04.380 --> 00:40:06.679 him to in Alberta, bought damaged vehicles in 00:40:06.679 --> 00:40:08.659 the states and hauled them north for repairs 00:40:08.659 --> 00:40:11.480 and resales at car dealerships. He also learned 00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:14.719 through hints and overheard conversations that 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:16.619 there was a legal side of the business and an 00:40:16.619 --> 00:40:18.960 illegal side. Sometimes the vehicles would be 00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:21.820 sold on the side by unscrupulous dealers. The 00:40:21.820 --> 00:40:24.059 criminal side was considerably more lucrative. 00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:27.579 A legitimate trip might pay $80, while its illegal 00:40:27.579 --> 00:40:30.420 version would pay $200. While on the Camorra 00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:32.980 trip, Greg learned that one of the Alberta contestant 00:40:32.980 --> 00:40:35.400 winners had a daughter going to the U of S in 00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:38.159 Saskatoon. This gave the undercover cops a pretext 00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:40.260 to stay in touch with Greg and Doris on their 00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:43.179 return. The supposed daughter cultivated her 00:40:43.179 --> 00:40:46.079 own relationship with Doris which the officer 00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:49.300 testified was important because it wasn't known 00:40:49.300 --> 00:40:51.639 whether she was an accessory to Shiri's alleged 00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.719 murder or could be leverage against Greg later 00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:57.980 in the sting. It was during Scenario 19 as they 00:40:57.980 --> 00:41:00.579 call it in October of 2018 in Saskatoon that 00:41:00.579 --> 00:41:03.019 officers actively introduced the criminal side 00:41:03.019 --> 00:41:05.920 of the operation. Greg and an undercover cop 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:08.559 from the Canmore trip met a third man at a local 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:11.539 bar with Greg being asked along to watch his 00:41:11.539 --> 00:41:13.679 back. The officer wanted him to conclude that 00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.159 it smells like crime, it doesn't look like a 00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:18.659 legitimate meat, he said. Afterwards, the undercover 00:41:18.659 --> 00:41:21.300 officer explained that he worked for a sophisticated 00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:23.860 criminal organization that was better than a 00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:26.000 bike gang because we don't roll with patches 00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:29.139 on our backs and didn't traffic in drugs because 00:41:29.139 --> 00:41:31.739 that draws too much attention from the police. 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.989 It was that point that Greg indicated he wanted 00:41:34.989 --> 00:41:38.050 to work in the criminal side of the organization. 00:41:38.230 --> 00:41:40.849 And then some time passes and this is super messed 00:41:40.849 --> 00:41:44.409 up. On January 1st of 2019, six months into the 00:41:44.409 --> 00:41:47.349 stay, Greg slipped and cracked his head. He was 00:41:47.349 --> 00:41:49.630 taken by ambulance to the hospital and then checked 00:41:49.630 --> 00:41:52.369 himself out the same day. Six days later, the 00:41:52.369 --> 00:41:54.969 undercover cops were contacted by Greg's girlfriend 00:41:54.969 --> 00:41:57.190 and told that he was on the floor of their house 00:41:57.190 --> 00:42:01.130 in medical distress and needed help. They got 00:42:01.130 --> 00:42:03.889 such a relationship out of the that he fell and 00:42:03.889 --> 00:42:05.949 was convulsing on the ground, and in undercover 00:42:05.949 --> 00:42:08.110 police officers, the first person the girlfriend 00:42:08.110 --> 00:42:11.429 calls. Yikes, not even an ambulance. They arrived 00:42:11.429 --> 00:42:13.989 to find him collapsed, with swelling in his head. 00:42:14.170 --> 00:42:17.429 He'd also soiled himself, but was adamantly refusing 00:42:17.429 --> 00:42:19.630 to go back to the hospital. EMTs were called, 00:42:19.650 --> 00:42:21.650 and he was finally convinced to go to the hospital. 00:42:21.929 --> 00:42:25.210 And then in June of 2019, Greg made his disclosure 00:42:25.210 --> 00:42:28.250 to the fake crime post that he killed Shiri, 00:42:28.289 --> 00:42:32.570 his ex -wife. Is this not like some sort of coercion 00:42:32.570 --> 00:42:35.670 or something if someone were to come along and 00:42:35.670 --> 00:42:38.449 think that I like did something illegal and they're 00:42:38.449 --> 00:42:41.170 wanting to like build a friendship with me and 00:42:41.170 --> 00:42:43.670 then they start off slow like they're friends 00:42:43.670 --> 00:42:46.269 and then they say yeah like start doing this 00:42:46.269 --> 00:42:48.489 for me I'll give you like this much money and 00:42:48.489 --> 00:42:51.050 I'm like wow okay like and then they actually 00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:53.489 give you that money yeah that's a lot of money 00:42:53.489 --> 00:42:56.269 and they're like paying for like hotels and stuff 00:42:56.269 --> 00:42:58.250 and then they're like this is actually illegal 00:42:58.250 --> 00:43:01.260 and it's a part of a big gang and stuff but you'll 00:43:01.260 --> 00:43:04.739 make like more money than you do working as a 00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:07.719 waitress. And I'd be like, why would I say no? 00:43:07.820 --> 00:43:10.860 If I was, you know, they were supplying a life 00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:13.619 that I wanted to live and couldn't do through 00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:17.099 other means. If I was like, they focus on mentally 00:43:17.099 --> 00:43:20.139 ill. Yeah. Low IQ. That was the next thing I 00:43:20.139 --> 00:43:22.980 was going to say. Social loaners. They then one 00:43:22.980 --> 00:43:25.579 of the guys was homeless. Like obviously I can't 00:43:25.579 --> 00:43:27.820 get a job. You give me a million dollars. I'm 00:43:27.820 --> 00:43:31.019 not. He has nothing else to lose like that's 00:43:31.019 --> 00:43:34.239 why I say it's coercion like who would turn that 00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:37.139 down and there was one I didn't put it in my 00:43:37.139 --> 00:43:40.340 notes just because I could never find the actual 00:43:40.340 --> 00:43:43.380 story but it was a lawyer YouTube that I found 00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:46.239 really interesting. The guy was out on parole 00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:50.280 and the Mr. Big Sting was taking him across provincial 00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:54.400 borders to commit fake crimes. So they actually 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:56.739 talked to his parole officer to explain what 00:43:56.739 --> 00:44:00.280 was going on and they okayed the exception for 00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:03.380 parole for him to go across borders to commit 00:44:03.380 --> 00:44:06.119 crimes because it was part of the Mr. Big scheme. 00:44:06.380 --> 00:44:09.960 Yeah, more morally they okayed that yeah said 00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:13.119 like that to me is a complete setup. Yeah Wow, 00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:16.039 of course the likely did commit murder. That's 00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:17.900 the thing I believe the guy's name is Edward 00:44:17.900 --> 00:44:20.860 Barrett He has been convicted of murdering one 00:44:20.860 --> 00:44:23.760 of his roommates in 2007 and burying the body 00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:25.139 and then when he heard the police were looking 00:44:25.139 --> 00:44:27.579 for it dug up the body and hit it somewhere else 00:44:27.579 --> 00:44:30.659 and Through his evidence. They found where the 00:44:30.659 --> 00:44:33.719 body was. Okay. I have another Wow. I have another 00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:38.059 question. So people are assumed innocent until 00:44:38.059 --> 00:44:40.719 proven guilty right this is all building the 00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:43.679 evidence to get them to guilty to get them to 00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:47.760 guilty and they are trying to build the evidence 00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:51.380 to get there like to me this doesn't seem right 00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:53.980 They're going on a hunch. Well, not necessarily 00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:57.119 a hunch. It could be they have a lot of good 00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:00.260 evidence. It's just that it's not enough to convict. 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:03.199 OK, so they really need something. And I guess 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:05.780 what I'm trying to say is if the police were 00:45:05.780 --> 00:45:08.579 to take somebody in and just straight up interrogate 00:45:08.579 --> 00:45:10.840 them, there's like all these rules that they 00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:13.940 have to follow about leading and stuff like that. 00:45:14.059 --> 00:45:16.849 Yeah. This seems to kind of get around it. Yeah, 00:45:16.849 --> 00:45:19.110 because that is an interaction between a police 00:45:19.110 --> 00:45:22.309 officer and a citizen. So a citizen says, I want 00:45:22.309 --> 00:45:25.670 my lawyer, then they have to at least give him 00:45:25.670 --> 00:45:27.809 the opportunity to get a lawyer. OK, this seems 00:45:27.809 --> 00:45:31.010 so wrong. Yeah. Isn't that this wouldn't be with 00:45:31.010 --> 00:45:33.650 the citizen then if they're setting him up. They're 00:45:33.650 --> 00:45:35.869 professionally doing this. They're using our 00:45:35.869 --> 00:45:39.429 taxpayer money to take them on vacations. We're 00:45:39.429 --> 00:45:42.230 going to get into that part, too. OK, those are 00:45:42.230 --> 00:45:44.809 just the examples I wanted to go over. Now we're 00:45:44.809 --> 00:45:46.769 going to get into a bit of a legal review. So 00:45:46.769 --> 00:45:48.809 this comes from the Manitoba Law Review, Volume 00:45:48.809 --> 00:45:52.849 43, Issue 3. In total, there have been about 00:45:52.849 --> 00:45:57.730 410 Mr. Big cases that have gone before the courts. 00:45:58.449 --> 00:46:02.269 410? By the time the Hart case took place, 350 00:46:02.269 --> 00:46:05.570 of them had gone before the court. And after 00:46:05.570 --> 00:46:07.989 Hart, about 60 of them have gone through the 00:46:07.989 --> 00:46:11.340 courts. So this is just what we're gonna focus 00:46:11.340 --> 00:46:13.619 on now just to kind of give you an idea in total 00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:16.679 59 court cases used the test laid out in heart 00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:20.800 from 2015 to 2021 the confession was admitted 00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:24.800 by the trial judge in 51 cases out of how many 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:30.110 of 59 In three cases, the evidence was excluded 00:46:30.110 --> 00:46:32.190 based on the new common law confession rule, 00:46:32.349 --> 00:46:35.489 lack of reliability, as made by heart. And it 00:46:35.489 --> 00:46:38.929 was excluded in four cases due to the abuse of 00:46:38.929 --> 00:46:42.730 process rule. In three cases, it was unclear 00:46:42.730 --> 00:46:45.110 whether the confession was or would have been 00:46:45.110 --> 00:46:47.510 excluded because the accused pled guilty after 00:46:47.510 --> 00:46:50.489 or during the admissibility voir dire. In all 00:46:50.489 --> 00:46:53.110 but two cases where the confession was admitted, 00:46:53.349 --> 00:46:57.010 the accused was found guilty. three cases where 00:46:57.010 --> 00:46:59.590 the confession was excluded and the following 00:46:59.590 --> 00:47:02.050 outcomes resulted in the case being dismissed. 00:47:02.309 --> 00:47:05.010 The Crown withdrew its case and the accused was 00:47:05.010 --> 00:47:07.269 acquitted due to a lack of Crown evidence. In 00:47:07.269 --> 00:47:09.710 two of the cases where the confession was thrown 00:47:09.710 --> 00:47:11.690 out the accused was still found guilty at trial 00:47:11.690 --> 00:47:14.750 but a stay was entered on appeal and the other 00:47:14.750 --> 00:47:16.809 two cases the outcome of the case is unknown 00:47:16.809 --> 00:47:19.630 as the trial decision was not reported. Between 00:47:19.630 --> 00:47:24.409 1990 and 2008 Mr. Big was allegedly used a total 00:47:24.409 --> 00:47:28.480 of three hundred with the majority of cases prosecuted 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.860 resulting in a conviction. If the number is accurate 00:47:30.860 --> 00:47:33.800 it means that prior to Hart there were 14 cases 00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:36.639 on average per year including those that made 00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:39.599 it and did not make it to trial. Since Hart there 00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:42.519 have been 11 cases per year that have made it 00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:45.780 to trial. Note that this number does not account 00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:48.480 for some of the unreported cases, where the accused 00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:51.079 pled guilty, unreported cases that did not result 00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:54.079 in trial for any other reason, or cases which 00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:56.880 were ongoing at the time of our review. Therefore, 00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:00.159 HART does not appear to have had any impact on 00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.679 either the number of cases brought to the trial 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:05.320 or the number of cases where the evidence was 00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.940 excluded based on either of the framework's prongs. 00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:11.940 The fact that most operations all but eight were 00:48:11.940 --> 00:48:15.139 completed or started pre -HART indicates that 00:48:15.139 --> 00:48:17.239 the HART factors would not have been considered 00:48:17.239 --> 00:48:20.719 when designing the operations. It is interesting 00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:24.079 to note that despite the fact that the confessions 00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:27.420 considered by judges since 2014 originated from 00:48:27.420 --> 00:48:29.980 operations designed pre -heart, these confessions 00:48:29.980 --> 00:48:33.199 were still mostly admitted when judges applied 00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:35.980 the heart framework. Isn't that messed up? Yeah. 00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:38.380 Like they put this thing in place to say, look, 00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:41.420 these are bad. We need to at least meet the standard. 00:48:41.579 --> 00:48:43.199 And pretty much all of them are meeting it, despite 00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:45.219 the fact that all these investigations started 00:48:45.219 --> 00:48:48.019 prior to the test being out. So the cops wouldn't 00:48:48.019 --> 00:48:49.500 have taken into account. So most of them should 00:48:49.500 --> 00:48:51.559 have been thrown out. Yeah. This is all mind 00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:54.079 blowing to me, really. Yeah. That this is something 00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:56.440 that's happening legally. Let's talk about some 00:48:56.440 --> 00:49:00.340 critiques. Let's just talk about a Mr. Big investigation. 00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:03.599 How much do you think one Mr. Big investigation 00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:06.760 costs start to finish not taking into account 00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:09.380 the cost of salaries for the undercover police 00:49:09.380 --> 00:49:13.300 officers? Oh, gosh, I'm going to go into like 00:49:13.300 --> 00:49:17.639 probably just in what you've said, I'm going 00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:20.119 to go with like more than thousands of dollars, 00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:22.519 like hundred thousand dollars. Actually, not 00:49:22.519 --> 00:49:25.670 bad. It's estimated that the average Mr. Big 00:49:25.670 --> 00:49:28.789 Tactic case is over one hundred and fifty thousand 00:49:28.789 --> 00:49:31.349 dollars per investigation. Wow. Figure does not 00:49:31.349 --> 00:49:33.369 include the number of police resources used to 00:49:33.369 --> 00:49:36.050 carry out the tactic either. Like, do you know 00:49:36.050 --> 00:49:38.670 with that what it would be estimate? It's probably 00:49:38.670 --> 00:49:41.789 so high. I do not know. Like we're talking about 00:49:41.789 --> 00:49:43.869 with heart, wasn't it, that that case went on 00:49:43.869 --> 00:49:46.110 one hundred and sixty three encounters. Each 00:49:46.110 --> 00:49:48.769 one of those encounters had at least one undercover 00:49:48.769 --> 00:49:50.869 police officer in there. Yeah, they're not going 00:49:50.869 --> 00:49:57.769 to be making tiny salaries. The success rate 00:49:57.769 --> 00:50:01.309 of Mr. Big Cases, as stated, is anywhere from 00:50:01.309 --> 00:50:06.170 75 % to 95%. and they determine success based 00:50:06.170 --> 00:50:08.630 on convictions or the exclusion of a suspect. 00:50:09.030 --> 00:50:13.449 This seems so like crooked to me. Yeah. And the 00:50:13.449 --> 00:50:16.309 part that is really frustrating, too, is we'll 00:50:16.309 --> 00:50:19.090 never know how many Mr. Big investigations were 00:50:19.090 --> 00:50:22.190 undertaken because we will only ever hear about 00:50:22.190 --> 00:50:24.650 them when it actually results in a case that 00:50:24.650 --> 00:50:27.630 goes to trial and they actually try to submit 00:50:27.630 --> 00:50:30.869 the evidence through a voir dire. So this is 00:50:30.869 --> 00:50:34.909 just like a common thing that is used in Canada. 00:50:35.329 --> 00:50:37.630 Again, we know how many cases have gone to court. 00:50:37.929 --> 00:50:41.030 We do not know how many resulted in the person 00:50:41.030 --> 00:50:44.170 was ruled out as a suspect. They got some evidence, 00:50:44.170 --> 00:50:46.190 but not enough to actually bring it to trial. 00:50:46.429 --> 00:50:49.150 Or they started one and just stopped it because 00:50:49.150 --> 00:50:51.869 they didn't have enough time or cops or whatever 00:50:51.869 --> 00:50:55.849 it may be. And this is key to the Mr. Big investigations 00:50:55.849 --> 00:50:59.190 to is they need to keep them private because 00:50:59.190 --> 00:51:03.989 if the common citizens knew what a Mr. Big investigation 00:51:03.989 --> 00:51:08.519 was or that they were ongoing. It would absolutely 00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:12.039 destroy any ability for the Mr. Big investigation 00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:15.079 to do what it's proposed to do. How is it not 00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:17.800 commonly like it? Did you know about it outside 00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:20.960 of me? No. And I guess the media is not covering 00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:24.320 it. And well, not only that, like it's redacted 00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:27.219 or confidential information is not well known. 00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:29.739 And that's why we only know about the cases that 00:51:29.739 --> 00:51:32.199 have gone to court. OK. Which is, I'm assuming, 00:51:32.300 --> 00:51:35.300 how you found out about it? Yeah, my first introduction 00:51:35.300 --> 00:51:39.179 to it was in Crimlaw 101 with Rebecca Johnson 00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:42.420 at UVic, who made me read heart. This is crazy. 00:51:42.579 --> 00:51:45.199 Like this, to me, has like some serious moral 00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:47.619 implications, and I'm surprised that it's even 00:51:47.619 --> 00:51:50.340 admissible at all. Many countries agree with 00:51:50.340 --> 00:51:53.099 you. Mr. Big Style investigations are prohibited 00:51:53.099 --> 00:51:57.530 in the US, UK and Germany. However, they have 00:51:57.530 --> 00:52:00.369 some admissibility in New Zealand and Australia. 00:52:00.909 --> 00:52:05.090 There are some legal articles out about the Canadian 00:52:05.090 --> 00:52:07.889 Mr. Big style of investigation and its impact 00:52:07.889 --> 00:52:10.489 on the Australian court system. But I unfortunately, 00:52:10.730 --> 00:52:12.809 I ran out of time and was unable to kind of explore 00:52:12.809 --> 00:52:15.130 that venue. Although there is something else 00:52:15.130 --> 00:52:18.090 that the UK is doing that I find just as reprehensible. 00:52:18.130 --> 00:52:20.969 And I'll touch on that in a minute. But for the 00:52:20.969 --> 00:52:22.449 most part, I'm just going to keep going on with 00:52:22.449 --> 00:52:26.130 these critiques. OK. Another thing, Mr. Big Investigations 00:52:26.130 --> 00:52:30.070 leave victims and their families without an answer 00:52:30.070 --> 00:52:31.809 as to what's going on with their investigation 00:52:31.809 --> 00:52:34.429 because they are confidential investigations. 00:52:34.849 --> 00:52:37.269 The families deserve a thorough and forthright 00:52:37.269 --> 00:52:40.349 investigation by police. It is not in the interest 00:52:40.349 --> 00:52:42.369 of victims to have evidence gathered through 00:52:42.369 --> 00:52:44.710 a Mr. Big investigation that will likely be viewed 00:52:44.710 --> 00:52:48.349 as suspect at best or excluded from trial at 00:52:48.349 --> 00:52:52.119 worst. to be what's relied on. Furthermore, it's 00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:55.099 in the community's best interests that police 00:52:55.099 --> 00:52:58.119 investigations are conducted in a manner that 00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:01.340 instills confidence in the criminal justice system. 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:04.219 In the interest of serving the public and obtaining 00:53:04.219 --> 00:53:07.179 justice, police forces should consider the inherent 00:53:07.179 --> 00:53:10.019 flaws of the Mr. Big technique and critically 00:53:10.019 --> 00:53:13.139 reflect on its use. While the criminal justice 00:53:13.139 --> 00:53:15.719 system has its failings, public confidence in 00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:17.820 the legitimacy of the system is essential for 00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:20.320 its operation. By using the Mr. Big technique, 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:23.539 police investigators risk public and community 00:53:23.539 --> 00:53:26.480 confidence in their methods and criminal justice 00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:29.099 system and its outcome have little chance of 00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:33.139 being seen as fair or just. Yeah, it's not. That's 00:53:33.139 --> 00:53:35.400 a correct state. That's a correct critique. So 00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:39.269 that is all the information i have on mr big 00:53:39.269 --> 00:53:43.170 obviously if you don't like this which god i 00:53:43.170 --> 00:53:46.070 don't know how you could talk to your member 00:53:46.070 --> 00:53:49.250 of parliament or your rcmp attachment and let 00:53:49.250 --> 00:53:51.730 them know that this is a terrible policy to be 00:53:51.730 --> 00:53:55.949 following um if you are from another country 00:53:55.949 --> 00:53:59.489 look into whether a mr big operation is legal 00:53:59.489 --> 00:54:02.070 or not in your country because these are terrible 00:54:02.070 --> 00:54:06.039 they are Wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars 00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:09.280 per investigation to in to coerce somebody into 00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:11.860 admitting guilt. How would they know if it's 00:54:11.860 --> 00:54:14.000 happening in their country, Mr. Break? How would 00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:16.699 I know you would operating in Canada? Do I just 00:54:16.699 --> 00:54:20.699 Mr. Big Operation Canada? Yeah. Basically, what 00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:24.780 you would do is Google your country or your country's 00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:29.590 police force and add in our Mr. Big Canada. and 00:54:29.590 --> 00:54:31.809 it will likely give you some sort of information 00:54:31.809 --> 00:54:34.230 on whether or not it is being used. It does come 00:54:34.230 --> 00:54:36.610 right up. Yes. And I do apologize for doing a 00:54:36.610 --> 00:54:39.909 very Western oriented view of who's using it. 00:54:40.170 --> 00:54:43.409 But that's from what I could find. I didn't unfortunately 00:54:43.409 --> 00:54:46.110 have time to go through 200 different entries 00:54:46.110 --> 00:54:49.250 to see if it's legal in certain countries. Apology 00:54:49.250 --> 00:54:51.849 accepted. Oh, good. I do also have to edit the 00:54:51.849 --> 00:54:57.750 episodes. But to go on one thing I just wanted 00:54:57.750 --> 00:55:01.809 to explore as like a side project That I sound 00:55:01.809 --> 00:55:04.829 super fucked up because the UK says mr. Big is 00:55:04.829 --> 00:55:07.809 too far I heard about this about his beginning 00:55:07.809 --> 00:55:11.610 of the year a climate activist Just was awarded 00:55:11.610 --> 00:55:16.570 a 229 ,000 pound compensation by the UK courts 00:55:16.570 --> 00:55:20.510 for such a weird undercover sting that the UK 00:55:20.510 --> 00:55:23.250 Oh, what's it? I forget the name of their police 00:55:23.250 --> 00:55:26.760 force Scotland yard Maybe. Well, anyways, the 00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:29.260 Metropolitan Police did. The undercover officer 00:55:29.260 --> 00:55:33.159 was in a two year intimate relationship with 00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:38.780 an eco activist. OK. The entire time undermining 00:55:38.780 --> 00:55:43.260 the process of their organization, getting involved 00:55:43.260 --> 00:55:46.539 and spying on everybody involved in the organization. 00:55:46.539 --> 00:55:49.219 And then when it was discovered who he was, he 00:55:49.219 --> 00:55:54.019 ran away. Oh, no. Yeah. That's so sad. Yeah, 00:55:54.139 --> 00:55:57.500 he was in a committed romantic relationship with 00:55:57.500 --> 00:56:01.079 somebody in the group for two years and then 00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:04.320 fled. Like, super messed up story. That's like 00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:07.579 the same thing as Mr. Big. It is, yeah. It's 00:56:07.579 --> 00:56:09.960 like the same exact thing. And I guess that's 00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:12.539 why she got money for it, but still they did 00:56:12.539 --> 00:56:16.340 it and it cost about as much as a Mr. Big investigation. 00:56:16.940 --> 00:56:18.980 It's a little worse because she got intimate 00:56:18.980 --> 00:56:21.820 with this guy who's an undercover cop. To me, 00:56:21.880 --> 00:56:24.639 it's the same thing friend. Well, yeah, relationship. 00:56:24.980 --> 00:56:27.199 Still the same moral lines are being crossed. 00:56:27.519 --> 00:56:29.780 Yeah. Anyhow, that's that's all I got today, 00:56:30.059 --> 00:56:32.460 Chelsea. Any questions? Yeah. Well, it's not 00:56:32.460 --> 00:56:36.039 really a question. Is that just like existentially 00:56:36.039 --> 00:56:39.159 demoralizing? It is. It's totally demoralizing. 00:56:39.179 --> 00:56:41.019 And I thought what you were getting with was 00:56:41.019 --> 00:56:43.179 heard is that they no longer do it now, which 00:56:43.179 --> 00:56:45.440 just like whether or not it's admissible in court. 00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:47.539 But no, they put a test in place and then they 00:56:47.539 --> 00:56:49.820 didn't. Other to actually make it a worthwhile 00:56:49.820 --> 00:56:53.360 just like it brings in some serious moral questions 00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:57.440 because they're police they know about how to 00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:59.940 interrogate people in the proper ways that it 00:56:59.940 --> 00:57:02.719 should be done and they're purposely going around 00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:05.099 those so that they can use it under a different 00:57:05.099 --> 00:57:08.400 exception to use a confession when there's laws 00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:11.739 in place so that you can get a proper confession 00:57:11.739 --> 00:57:14.380 or I'm just really dumbing it down there you 00:57:14.380 --> 00:57:19.719 know what I mean and they're purposefully circumventing 00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:23.460 that. Yeah, and they get just so completely morally 00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:26.199 questionable what they're doing, not even morally 00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:28.820 questionable. It's just wrong. Yeah. They literally 00:57:28.820 --> 00:57:30.980 sat down in a room, it seems like, and said, 00:57:31.159 --> 00:57:33.920 OK, all these onuses on us seem really hard. 00:57:34.059 --> 00:57:37.119 But what if we weren't cops, at least in their 00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:40.719 mind? Yeah. But it shouldn't matter because the 00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:44.239 laziest way to do it at the end of the day. That's. 00:57:44.269 --> 00:57:46.849 The way they're trained so they should be held 00:57:46.849 --> 00:57:50.309 to those same moral standards Exactly. Yeah, 00:57:50.389 --> 00:57:53.590 they are that they've chosen as a career not 00:57:53.590 --> 00:57:56.289 I'm gonna be doing my career, but they don't 00:57:56.289 --> 00:57:58.769 know that I'm just the guy that you call when 00:57:58.769 --> 00:58:01.610 your spouse is having a seizure on the kitchen 00:58:01.610 --> 00:58:06.389 floor. Yeah That's it like yeah, and then it's 00:58:06.389 --> 00:58:08.960 all done because we got your confession that 00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:11.000 we coerced out of you pretty much it's the same 00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:13.599 thing like you lead people in a confession and 00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:16.380 there's all these like people giving false confessions 00:58:16.380 --> 00:58:18.420 which is why there's all that stuff in place 00:58:18.420 --> 00:58:20.460 and to me that's the same thing they're leading 00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:22.699 them to can you imagine that though you have 00:58:22.699 --> 00:58:25.039 no money at all some guy comes along and starts 00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:28.739 paying you and it ends up being 15 grand and 00:58:28.739 --> 00:58:31.320 he says by the way we need to know about you 00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:34.460 killing this person and if you don't tell us 00:58:34.460 --> 00:58:36.989 about it like this money's just cut off Yeah, 00:58:37.130 --> 00:58:39.369 absolutely. And like, don't worry if you say 00:58:39.369 --> 00:58:41.349 you did it. We have people within the police 00:58:41.349 --> 00:58:43.510 that we can pay to get rid of the evidence. So 00:58:43.510 --> 00:58:45.010 don't worry about it. Just tell us you did it. 00:58:45.210 --> 00:58:48.369 But they won't. Yeah, because they are the police. 00:58:48.429 --> 00:58:51.210 That's just absolutely crazy. And there's no 00:58:51.210 --> 00:58:54.960 morals involved. And yeah. That just puts more 00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:57.940 questions even after that Gabriel Wirtman one. 00:58:58.099 --> 00:59:01.059 That was a good episode. RCMP's hands are not 00:59:01.059 --> 00:59:04.219 clean. That is why the uniform is red to cover 00:59:04.219 --> 00:59:07.219 the blood stains that her riddled about. Yeah, 00:59:07.340 --> 00:59:09.639 no kidding. As they are. That was a really good 00:59:09.639 --> 00:59:12.139 episode though. I'm glad you liked it. Anyhow, 00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:15.260 we have been Taylor and Chelsea reminding you 00:59:15.260 --> 00:59:19.639 that any person giving you friendly help is likely 00:59:19.639 --> 00:59:22.440 an undercover police officer, be sure to yell 00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:25.440 pig in their face and run away. Except if they're 00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:28.840 actually offering you free money. Take the money 00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:31.480 until they want you to commit crime. Yeah, but 00:59:31.480 --> 00:59:34.239 don't confess. Take the money and don't confess. 00:59:34.500 --> 00:59:36.320 And sorry, once again, I do need to end this 00:59:36.320 --> 00:59:41.380 episode. We are not legal advice. If this is 00:59:41.380 --> 00:59:43.719 something is presented before you, please talk 00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:45.940 to a lawyer again. We got a lawyer if you need 00:59:45.940 --> 00:59:49.099 it. Yeah, don't write that down. Anyhow, thanks 00:59:49.099 --> 01:00:07.780 for listening. 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