Now, Chelsea, have you been following what's
been going on in the Colorado area with regards
to the wildfires over the New Year's break? Not
in any detail. I know that they're happening.
And I think I briefly heard a timeline, but I
can't remember it. OK, just outside of Boulder,
Colorado, and in fact, in Boulder, Colorado,
there's been a fairly large fire. It started
on Thursday. I believe that's December the 30th.
Snowfall thankfully has brought it under control
and mostly out at this point, but while the martial
fires they're calling it now was wreaking havoc,
at least two people are left missing still and
more than 1 ,000 houses and businesses were destroyed
or damaged in the fire that blitzed. a 10 square
mile area in Boulder County around the towns
of Superior. It has snowed which has helped firefighters
get the flames under control but the snow has
complicated the search for the two missing people
and the investigation into the fire's origins
which still remain kind of heated but has had
a blanket put over it in the worst punny way
to explain what's going on there. Now I stumbled
across information on this on the subreddit known
as Collapse. There's an area between Denver and
Boulder called Rocky Flats. It used to be a plutonium
weapons manufacturing plant. It has had a troubled
history. I'm just going to run through it really
quick and why it's being brought up with regards
to the Marshall fires. The Rocky Flats plant,
a former U .S. nuclear weapons production facility
located about 15 miles northwest of Denver, caused
radioactive... It's only 15 miles? Yeah, it's
close. It's basically a suburb. Okay. Primarily
plutonium radioactive contamination within and
outside its boundaries. The contamination primarily
resulted from two major plutonium fires in 1957
and 1969 and from windblown plutonium that leaked
from the barrels of radioactive waste. Much lower
concentrations of radioactive isotopes were released
throughout the operational life of the plant
from 1952 to 1992 and from the smaller accidents
and from normal operational releases of plutonium
particles too small to be filtered. Prevailing
winds from the planet carried airborne contamination
south and east into populated areas northwest.
West of Denver. The contamination of the Denver
area by plutonium from the fires and other sources
was publicly reported until the 1970s. According
to a 1972 study co -authored by Edward Martel,
in the more densely populated areas of Denver,
the plutonium contamination levels in surface
soils is several times that of fallout. And that's
Denver. And that's Denver. And the plutonium
contamination just east of the Rocky Flats plant
ranges up to hundreds of times that from nuclear
tests. Exposure of a large population of the
Denver area to plutonium and other radionuclides
in the exhaust plumes from the plant date back
to 1953. Now weapons production at the plant
was halted after a combined FBI and EPA raid
occurred in 1989 and years in protest. The plant
has since been shut down with buildings demolished
and completely removed from the site. The Rocky
Flats plant was declared a superfund site in
1999 and began its transformation to a cleanup
site in 1992. Removal of the plant and surface
contamination was largely completed in the late
1990s and early 2000s, and nearly all underground
contamination was left in place. Measurable radioactive
environmental contaminations in and around Rocky
Flats will probably persist. The land formerly
occupied by the plant is now Rocky Flats National
Wildlife Refuge, and plans to make this refuge
accessible for recreation have been repeatedly
delayed due to lack of funding and protested
by citizen organizations. I'm surprised that
this whole area is not a biohazard, including
Denver. Would it not be considered that? I have
no idea. This is not my area of expertise, but
I do know like areas like Chernobyl does have
basically act as a wildlife sanctuary just for
the fact that there's no humans there. Yeah.
It's not like a government wildlife sanctuary
though. Yeah. It's somewhat disturbing, but they
do say they've cleaned it up. So I don't know.
They also do apparently watch and ensure that
the radioactivity in the area stays low. But
the person who posted this, it's a user on Reddit
by the name of Fish Disciple, did add some concerning
areas about it, particularly the cleanup effort
was originally projected to take 65 years and
37 billion. to do properly, but after only 10
years and $7 billion, most of which went to administrators,
the cleanup effort was heralded as a success
and the Superfund site was opened up for both
property development and recreation. One might
argue the cleanup effort was half -assed or even
deliberately negligent. For example, only the
top three feet of contaminated soil was cleaned
up, even though contamination is known to be
much deeper and natural processes routinely bring
up soil from 16 feet and below. This is the case
even when excluding criminal dumping and incineration
of radioactive waste clandestinely undertaken
by the plant. For nearly the last 20 years there
has been insufficient testing and monitoring
of radioactive contamination in the area which
again is driven by commercial interests in the
present day. Basically saying it would be inconvenient
for corporate interests to actually have radioactivity
there so they don't worry about it. Yeah, of
course it's the corporations in the end that
have the final say in it. It is imperative that
those in impacted areas, especially in the context
of the Marshall fires, be aware of the clear
and present danger, namely plutonium 239. This
is an alpha emitter, meaning you can be harmed
by breathing or ingesting its particulates. So
the reason it's brought up is because this is
an area close to Boulder. It's right in between
Boulder and Denver. Should this area ever burn,
there's a distinct chance of ash and soil and
debris and wind bring contamination from it basically
wherever the winds may take it usually in a close
area but hell winds we get smoke in Canada from
wildfires in California that stuff travels not
only that I mean with the weather changes that
are happening today it's not just this wildfire
that's probably a risk to it it's probably any
number of things that are a risk to this and
how many people in the area know that there's
like super high radiation levels or at least
was at one point Yes. Yeah. I mean, how many
of those people would continue living there,
I wonder. But there's all these things you don't
know. Like it could be like a million areas of
the world for people who are trying to do cover
ups. Yeah. And especially from this time period,
because a lot of things during the Cold War were
undertaken for the greater good of defeating
the Reds, the communists, and are covered up
fairly significantly. There was a response from
a poster. on reddit as well by the name of crispyneggs
that I thought was important to look at here.
Reddit has some good usernames. They have great
usernames. They make everything sound super legit.
Yeah. So he said, great to see info about Rocky
Flats here. It was an absolute shit show from
start to finish, even though it's not finished,
nor will it be for eons. Not only did they pick
a terrible site to build the facility on due
to the population density nearby, they also managed
to pick one of the windiest hillsides on earth
to build it on. For those wondering if they should
move into those nice new neighborhoods they built
along the Rocky Flats border, the answer in my
opinion is an astounding no. Nor would I ever
personally visit any of the wildlife habitats,
quote unquote, they so nicely opened up around
it. I hate even driving by on 93 and avoid Marshall
Road if I can. It's a good idea to educate yourself
on the history of this place if you are considering
moving to a nearby area and especially if you
live in the nearby area. As sad and aggravating
as that is, the DOE really did a number on this
one and it shouldn't be allowed to be covered
up by them. So this is an area that is being
developed. It has new houses going in there and
it's something to be aware of. Of course it's
something to be made money on. This isn't even
fire season. This is the middle of December.
North America is not supposed to burn for another
couple months. We're in all sorts of trouble.
And then you add in plutonium. And this is just
one site that happened to be brought up. while
a forest fire was nearby, there are definitely
more sites out there with regards to unknown
contaminants of radiation in the soil that could
cause harm. Scary. One to bring up to keep an
eye on if you're in that area, and aren't we
the fun time? Always. With that, let's ring in
the new year and get back to what we do best,
educating you on fringe topics. From the unexplained
to the mundane, come join us on a Journey to
the Fringe. Hello and welcome to Journey to the
Fringe. We are coming to you live from the steamy
foreplay to the end of modern human civilization
as we know it, more commonly known as the year
2022. We are your host, Taylor and Chelsea, here
to educate you on all matters of fringy materials.
And today we are going to be covering some historical
facts. These are all very proven things. There's
little speculation involved in it all, as there
always is. But this is well documented, widely
accessible. There are many different people talking
about it out there. But if you are looking with
your new use resolution to bone up on some education,
then bone we shall today. Let's get down to it.
I think a good way to break this down is to talk
about Operation Paperclip. Well, it is a US operation.
which take place just after World War Two. To
set it up, I find it is important to talk about
the end of World War One, although technically
never happened. It is canon to the story. It's
like the movies to Dragon Ball, although technically
don't exist. They are canon. So we do need to
bring it up. World War One didn't happen. Yeah.
Remember we covered that in the Mandela effect.
Right. So we're going to talk about that. We're
going to talk about the actors coming up from
World War One. in Canon to World War II. From
there, I'm going to talk about what actually
happened during World War II, the ending of it.
Chelsea is then going to talk about Operation
Paperclip from there. So. To begin our story,
I think it is important to talk about a little
nation more commonly known as Russia. Undergoing
some growing pains, I guess, is an apt way to
describe it. Moving from the backwards hillbilly
arm of Europe and to what is going to be a fairly
formidable opponent in the next 40 years. That
was a beautiful way to describe it. Okay, I'm
glad you liked it. It is truly astounding that
the transformation this country undergoes. It
goes from one of the poorest nations in the world
to commonly thought of as number one or number
two in the superpowers in the world in the span
of 40 years and getting the first man into space.
Like it is crazy what happens here. I never thought
of it that way. Yeah, I learned a whole bunch
of new stuff on this episode though. So okay,
that's good added to the list So canonically
britain france and russia formed a triple on
font during world war one and allied themselves
against the german forces The us joined them
as self -styled associated power in march of
1917 an important thing happens in 1917 and that
is that the bolsheviks soviets seize power in
russia in november, but germany armies advanced
rapidly across the borderlands while this was
going on. The Allies responded with an economic
blockade against all of Russia, and in early
March of 1918, the Soviets followed through on
the wave of popular disgust against the war that
thrived in Russia, and accepted harsh German
peace terms, with the Treaty of Brest -Litovsk.
In the eyes of the Allies, Russia now was helping
Germany win the war by freeing up a million German
soldiers on the Eastern Front, and by relinquishing
much of Russia's food supply, industrial base,
fuel supplies, and communications with Western
Europe. was widely unpopular in Russia, and they
were not equipped to actually fight this war.
They were losing badly. The communists who took
power basically said this is a widely unpopular
war, let's get out of it as fast as we can, and
they gave up basically all the border lines.
They gave up Poland, Ukraine, many of the border
nations that had all of its infrastructure, all
of its farmland, and although necessary to get
it. out, it pissed off its allies in general
as helping the enemy keep fighting in this war.
According to historian Spencer Tucker, the Allies
felt the treaty was the ultimate betrayal of
the allied cause and sowed the seeds of the Cold
War from here. And this is the big part. The
USSR repudiates all debts from the Tsarist era
of Russia, commonly thought of as a bad move
by fancy people the world over. And once World
War I actually ends, in 1918, Britain sent in
money and some troops to support the anti -Bolshevik
white counterrevolution. This policy was spearheaded
by Minister of War, and you wouldn't actually
know his name, Winston Churchill. I do know that
name. He decided he wanted to fight the communists
early on in their civil war, as did France, Japan,
and the United States, who also sent forces to
help decide the Russian Civil War in the whites'
favor. However, Lenin made peaceful overtures
to Wilson and the American leaders responded
by sending diplomat William Bullitt to Moscow.
Allies ultimately rejected the ceasefire terms
which Bullitt negotiated, believing that a white
victory was imminent. And I don't know if many
of you know this, but the October Revolution
in Russia, despite the fact that all the international
help sent to the whites, the Reds came out successful.
Because of all of this going on, the USSR largely
became a hermit state for the next 15 to 20 years.
All history we know, right? Maybe. Okay. But
then under FDR, the US entered trade agreements
with the USSR. This is after Lenin had died,
Stalin is now in power. The long delay was caused
by Moscow's repudiation of the Tsarist era. debts
and its threats to overthrow capitalism using
local communist parties. By 1933 these issues
have faded and the opportunity for greater trade
appealed to Washington. They did come to these
agreements and they said at a later date maybe
we'll talk about the Tsarist debts. They never
end up getting around to it. So there is actually
some communication between Russia and the US
at this time which is building to a relationship
however there are still very fancy and important
people in the US that are pissed off that they
lost money in World War I. Of course. Then, a
man steps onto the stage known as Adolf Hitler
in Germany, generally thought of as a bad person,
but he also ends up becoming the person that
kills Hitler, and how can the person that kills
Hitler be all that bad? Supposedly. Supposedly,
yes. If we were to leave the common story, which
isn't going to be disputed in this episode. I
was just putting it out there. Yeah. Nobody saw
him die. Continue. Okay, Adolf Hitler comes onto
the stage and the West embraces a position of
appeasement to Adolf Hitler. They signed the
Munich Pact in 1938, which gave partial control
of Czechoslovakia to the Nazis. As you may know,
Nazis and the Soviet Union had fairly opposite
ends of the political spectrum views. For a long
time Stalin felt that Hitler was an enemy, that
they were to fight fascism around the world,
and that they also weren't in position to take
on Hitler on their own. So with the West taking
on a view of appeasing Adolf Hitler, Russia felt
stranded and they felt that their only way to
proceed forward was to enter into an agreement
with the Nazis. And I saw this described in two
different ways on Wikipedia, on two different
Wikipedia articles, so I wanted to read both
of them just so you can see how like opposite
these are. In 1939, after conducting negotiations
with both the French and the British group, and
Germany regarding potential military and political
agreements, the Soviet Union and Germany signed
a commercial agreement providing for the trade
of certain German military and civilian equipment
in exchange for Soviet raw materials. And the
Molotov -Ribbentrop Pact, commonly named after
the foreign secretaries of the two countries,
which included a secret agreement to split Poland
and Eastern Europe between the two states. One
description. Next one. In 1938 -39, the Soviet
Union attempted to form strong military alliances
with Germany's enemies, including Poland, France,
and Great Britain, but they all refused. In an
effort to delay a Nazi invasion and build up
the Soviet military, Stalin made a non -aggression
pact with Hitler and received control of a large
swath of Eastern Europe, including the Baltic
countries. The agreement provided for large sales
of Russian grain and oil to Germany, while Germany
would share its military technology with the
Soviet Union. ensuring the Molotov -Ribbentrop
Pact astonished the world and signaled the war
would start very soon. French historian Francois
Furey says, The pact signed in Moscow by Ribbentrop
and Molotov on August 23, 1939 inaugurated the
alliance between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It
was presented as an alliance and not just a non
-aggression pact. Other historians dispute the
characterization of this treaty as an alliance
because Hitler secretly intended to invade the
USSR in the future. And do you see that? Like
one kind of shows it as no alternative option,
as they were abandoned by other powers. And the
other says that they actively sought out this
relationship. I just found it interesting that
they were both found on Wikipedia, just in different
spots. Yeah, I find that a lot with Wikipedia
as well. Maybe that's why it's not a good resource.
Or maybe it just gives you some good, good starting
points on things. Yeah. But anyhow, regardless
of what you think of this relationship in June
of 1941, Nazis invaded the USSR in what is called
Operation Barbarossa, and that is ostensibly
what severs the relationship. It's a lot of question
about why the Soviet Union allied with the Nazis
at that time. I don't think it's worth speculating
at this time as there's tons to talk about and
it's not as important to the topic at hand. Okay,
very good. But before we actually get into the
war, I wanted to talk about what America is doing
this whole time. and it is a whole lot of sitting
on the fence post. They had a hard time not liking
the Nazis. A lot of them. This is all pre -war.
There is still a lot during the war and after
the war of people who really liked the Nazis,
but I'm just going to focus on the pre -war times.
There is, of course, Prescott Bush. some of you
may know who that is for those of you who don't
it is great grandpa no sorry just grandfather
to george bush the president from 2000 to 2008
and the father to george hw bush president from
1988 to 1992 he ran very many businesses that
I'm just gonna say it this way. The Harriman
papers in the Library of Congress show that Prescott
Bush was a director and shareholder of a number
of companies involved with FISAE. He is a fairly
high -up German Nazi who was trying to invest
around the world. From October 20th, 1942, the
alien property custodian sees the assets of UBC,
of which Prescott Bush was a director. Having
gone through the books of the bank, further seizures
were made against the two affiliates. and the
Holland American Trading Corporation and the
Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation were also
seized of which Prescott Bush was involved. By
November, the Silesian American Company, another
of Prescott Bush's ventures, had also been seized.
A report issued by the Office of Alien Property
Custodian in 1942 stated of the companies that
since 1939, these steel and mining properties
have been in possession of and have been operated
by the German government and have undoubtedly
been of considerable assistance to that country's
war effort. Interesting. Also, during this time,
Prescott Bush gets implicated in what's called
the business lot, which was snively Butler, a
fairly prominent military personality of that
time basically dated to Congress that he was
approached by many elite individuals within the
US that they wanted to overthrow the government
and put him in as a dictator, although Most of
his claims are thought to be overblown. There
is wide belief that there is something to what's
called the business plot. I wouldn't doubt it
by what you just said. That is an episode in
itself that we could do in the future as well.
This is a video of a pro -nazi rally held at
Madison Square Garden in 1939. What? what we
are actively fighting for under our charter.
First, a social just white gentile ruled United
States. Second, gentile controlled labor union,
free from Jewish Moscow -directed domination.
So I think that gives you a good idea of What
I'm trying to say there. Yeah, that's always
like disturbing to see something like that one
because we now know what the Nazis were up to
I don't know if they knew at that time fully
and like people are so easily Manipulated and
you look at that and I just feel like with all
the hatred that's being spewn right now It would
be so easy to do that again to turn like everybody
again because there's already against one another
I think it's important to talk about this just
because it's taken as a given at this time now
that Nazis were the bad guys by at least a majority
of people in the Western world. This was not
the case pre -World War II. There was a distinct
split within society on which side was actually
right in this war. There were two fairly prominent
groups In the US, one was called the Friends
of New Germany. I could not find a count of how
many people were involved in the Friends of New
Germany, but there was them and they ended up
getting taken over by the, not taken over, but
the Friends of New Germany dissolved in the 1930s
and the German -American Bund took over in 1935.
And I do believe that the man that was speaking
was Fritz Kuhn, who was the leader of the German
-American Bund. And that lasted until America
formally joined the war. in 1941. Their registry
was fairly significant. At least in New York,
they were able to sell out Madison Square Gardens
at the time and had a large group in Chicago.
Although, again, I could not find their official
count as to how many people were involved in
each group. I wouldn't imagine you could very
easily. Yeah, at this point. And it wasn't just
the US population at large that was split on
what would actually happen here. Many US corporations
saw that there was money to be made in Germany
at this time, or at least didn't back away from
making money in Germany at the time. Kodak, subsidiaries
of the Eastman Kodak Company traded with Nazi
Germany long after America had entered the war.
Archived documents provide a glimpse of the attitude
of some US and British government officials during
that period who were unwilling to impose any
sanctions against the firms, recommending instead
that Kodak continue trading to preserve its market
position. IBM is a US company and in Germany
asked IBM to record the internment, movement,
execution, and ethnic backgrounds of citizens
throughout Europe. Not only did IBM do this and
think it was okay, but they trained Nazis to
use their equipment, which also stayed as the
property of IBM that entire time. GM in 1935
built a military factory in Berlin and was the
reason that the Nazis were able to invade Poland
and the rubber they provided is credited as being
the biggest reason Germany was in a position
to wage world war two. I mean that's not funny
but like that's a pretty crazy fact. I mean it's
you leave it it can come down to one like big
corporation and they're like now we can make
money. Yeah. And there's, of course, the Ford
Motor Company. Although they are implicated themselves,
I more so wanted to focus on Henry Ford, whom
Hitler kept a portrait of in his office. And
Henry Ford also was awarded the Grand Cross of
the German Eagle on his 75th birthday on July
30th, 1938. He never distanced himself from the
Nazis, never offering to return the award. He
held on to it his entire life. And Russian slaves
were used in the Ford factory in Cologne, some
1200, most of whom who died. Ford was on the
committee of the America First Association to
stay out of World War II as well. Wow, some heavy
stuff that I didn't know. Yeah, and the US had
already seen a wave of communism sweep through
it a little bit. It wasn't as successful. in
the US as other parts of the world, like Russia.
But from jail, Eugene Debs, who ran to be president
under the Socialist Party of the US, received
over a million votes in 1920. And in 1948, Henry
Wallace received just under 1 .2 million votes
for president running under the Communist Party
in the US. So there's pushback from the other
side with those parties as well. All of this
kind of leads to the US first off staying out
of the war for a long time it being very unpopular
eventually getting involved but the rise of right
wing populism fascism with a lot of these groups
these people don't go away they just. turn into
anti -communists after the war and continue on
with life and I think it's important to make
a note of this when we're talking about what's
going to happen because these people still exist
during and after the war and I think they play
an important factor in what happens. The corporations?
Not just the corporations. There's such a large
amount of people in the U .S. who at least side
with non -intervention because they don't think
the Germans are being as bad as it turns out
they are. Right. Yes. Yeah. And just staying
out of it. But back to the war front now. So
starting in 1941, the Soviet Union bore the brunt
of the Nazi war machine and played perhaps the
most important role in the Allies defeat Hitler.
By one calculation for every single American
soldier killed fighting in Germany, 80 Soviet
soldiers died doing the same. Hold on, American
soldiers in Germany? Yes, against Germany. Am
I about to sound really dumb here? I thought
that, hold on, I thought America was in the war
with Japan. They were on both fronts. There are
two distinct portions of World War II. There's
the European theater and then the Pacific theater,
which comes after Europe. And the Americans were
in the European theater? They were in both and
that's, you would know this because they entered
Europe on D -Day. Okay. I do know that. Why did
I think they weren't there? I'm not a history
buff. Yeah. Just to get this important part in
here. Germany enters Russia and they get fairly
far into Russia and then they get stalled at
what is the town known as Leningrad, which eventually
becomes Stalingrad. I can't remember what it's
known as today. I think it's St. Petersburg,
but I can't remember off the top of my head.
Yeah, that just came up, actually. But they were
able to hold the Nazis at Leningrad. from 1941
until 1944 and then finally they were able to
push back against the Nazis and start winning
land from them. Of course, the start of the war
had been shaped by Nazi -Soviet Pact. To carve
up the lands in between their borders, Hitler
turned against the USSR. The Red Army was the
main engine of the Nazism's destruction, writes
British historian and journalist Mark Haste.
The Soviet Union paid the harshest price, however.
Though the numbers are not exact, an estimated
26 million Soviet citizens died during World
War II, including as many as 11 million soldiers.
At the same time, the Germans suffered three
-quarters of their wartime losses fighting the
Red Army. It was the Western Allies' extreme
good fortune that the Russians and not themselves
paid almost the entire butcher's bill for defeating
the Nazis, excepting 95 % of the military casualties
of the three major powers of the Allies. The
epic battles that eventually rolled back the
Nazi advance, brutal winter siege of Stalingrad,
clash of thousands of armored vehicles at Kursk,
that had no parallel on the Western front. where
the Nazis committed fewer military assets. The
savagery on display was also of a different degree
than what was experienced farther west. And Eisenhower,
who went on to become president in the 1950s,
this is from his direct diary. Through this overrun
region, Marshal Zhukov told me so many numbers
of women, children and old men had been killed.
that the Russian government would never be able
to estimate the total. With that, Leningrad was
a major defeat for the Nazis, so much so that
it actually changed up their tactics. Germany
had been developing rockets. There was the V1
and the V2. They have German names, but in English
it translates to vengeance. Their names are literally
Vengeance 1 and Vengeance 2. By late 1941, while
the war is going good on the Eastern Front, Hitler
thought the V2 rocket, which is a rocket -propelled
missile which could go about 320 kilometers,
was not particularly impressive and he opined
that it was merely an artillery shell with a
longer range and a much higher cost. But early
September of 1940, Hitler was sufficiently impressed
by the enthusiasm of his developer and needed
a quote -unquote wonder weapon to maintain German
morale, so he authorized the deployment of it
in large numbers. At the beginning of the Russian
front, it was thought of as a side project that
would just be merely for fun, and by the end
of it, it became kind of the go -to military
plan because they needed something because they
were losing the manpower fight, mostly due to
what was happening on the Russian front. as we
just talked about. What is the V2 rocket? The
German V weapons, V1 and V2, cost the equivalent
in development around US $40 billion in 2015
dollars, which was 50 % more than the Manhattan
Project that produced the atomic bomb. V2s were
built at a cost of approximately 100 ,000 Reichsmarks
or 2 .37 billion pounds in 2011 dollars, so about
$5 billion US each. 3 ,225 were launched. What?
Yep. Wow. General Hans Kammler, who was an engineer,
had constructed several concentration camps,
including Auschwitz, and had a reputation for
brutality, and had originated the idea of using
concentration camp prisoners as slave laborers
in the rocket program. And more people died manufacturing
the V2 than were killed by its deployment. A
quote. From Freeman Dyson, those of us who were
seriously engaged in the war were very grateful
to Wernher von Braun. We knew that each V2 cost
as much to produce as a high -performance fighter
airplane. We knew that the German forces on the
fighting fronts were in desperate need of airplanes,
and that the V2 rockets were doing us no military
damage. From our point of view, the V2 program
was almost as good as if Hitler had adopted a
policy of unilateral disarmament. The V2 consumed
a third of Germany's fuel alcohol production
and major portions of other critical technologies.
To distill the fuel alcohol for one V2 launcher
required 30 tons of potatoes at a time when food
was becoming scarce. Due to a lack of explosives,
some warheads were simply filled with concrete,
using kinetic energy alone for destruction and
sometimes the warheads contained photographic
propaganda of German citizens who had died in
Allied bombings. and they spent so much money
on it just to fill it with concrete. Yeah, it
was at this point they were desperate to actually
do something and this is what they had. The psychological
effect of the V2 was considerable as the V2 traveling
faster than the speed of sound gave no warning
before impact. There was no effective defense
and no risk of pilot and crew casualties. An
example of the oppression it made is in the reaction
of American pilot and future nuclear strategist
and congressional aide William Liscum Ford who
in 1944 while returning from a nighttime mission
over Holland saw a V2 in flight on its way to
strike London. It resembled a meteor streaming
red sparks and whizzing past us as though the
aircraft were motionless. I became convinced
that it was only a matter of time until rockets
would expose the United States to direct trans
-oceanic attack. With the war all but lost regardless
of the factory output of conventional weapons,
the Nazis resorted to V -weapons as a tenuous
last hope to influence the war militarily. As
an extension of their desire to punish their
foes, and most importantly to give hope to their
supporters with their miracle weapons, the V
-2 had no effect on the outcome of the war, but
it led to the intercontinental ballistic missiles
of the Cold War, which in turn were used for
space exploration. The offensive began on September
7th, 1944, when two were launched at Paris. Both
crashed soon after launch. On 8th of September,
a single rocket was launched at Paris, which
caused modest damage near Porte d 'Italia. Two
more launches by the 485th followed, including
one from the Hague against London on the same
day at 6 .43pm. The British government initially
attempted to conceal the cause of the explosions
by blaming them on defective gas mains. and the
public therefore began referring to V2s as flying
gas pipes. The Germans themselves finally announced
the V2 on November 8, 1944, and only then on
November 10, 1944, did Winston Churchill inform
Parliament and the world that England had been
under a rocket attack for the last few weeks.
And over the following months, From basically
October to the end of the war, 3 ,172 V2 rockets
were fired at the following targets. 1 ,664 were
fired at Belgium, 1 ,610 of which were fired
at Antwerp, 1 ,402 were fired at the United Kingdom,
1 ,358 of which were fired at London, 43 at Norwick.
France had 76 fired at it, 25 of which were fired
at Lille. and Paris had 22. 19 were fired at
the Netherlands and 11 ended up being fired at
Germany itself. This is coming to the end of
my part. This is really important. The turn to
manufacturing the V2s led to the factories being
developed and built in an area known as middle
work, which is now just outside of modern day
Nordhausen, which is squarely in what would become
East Germany after World War II. The Soviets
gained possession of the V2 factories after the
war and reestablished the V2 production and moved
it to the Soviet Union upon the completion of
the war and the split of East and West Germany.
With that, I think I have set up. What you are
now about to talk to fairly nicely? I think it
does too. Any questions about any of that, Chelsea?
I don't think so. I'm like not a war buff, so
a lot of this is like I get the general idea
of what happens. We fully just learned about
the V2 and its significance at the end of World
War II. Yeah. During this research. I had no
idea that these rockets were fire. There's definitely
a lot that I've just learned brand new some of
it I can't say that I might not have learned
before and I just Forgot about it, but and just
add one more thing the Nazis were also the first
spacefaring group as they launch one of the V2
rockets straight up and it breached the atmosphere.
It wasn't manned though, right? It was not manned
at all. It was the first man -made object that
was propelled. I did not know that either. Yeah,
I did learn a lot there. Some of the things when
it comes to just logistics just are a little
bit over my head though. Anyhow, I'm going to,
this was a really good setup for me and I'm going
to start with Operation Overcast. This one's
a progression. I just want to start out by saying
Taylor didn't really get to the many many long
boring names. I have a lot of them in my part.
It was really unavoidable. I don't have all of
the long boring names. We could do an episode
just on long boring names. With that, here we
go. To set the scene on Operation Overcast, though
it has probably been in the works for the whole
time Taylor's been talking, kind of. In the later
part of World War II, Germany started shitting
the bed and was at a logistical disadvantage
after failing Operation Barbarossa. And this
failure depleted German resources and left the
Germans unprepared to defend against the Red
Army. So what Germany does in early 1943 is recall
scientists, engineers, rocketeers, and technicians
from combat. And once the Germans located these
intellectuals, they were then vetted for their
political and ideological reliability. And they
returned to work in research and development
in an attempt to strengthen German defense. This
is done mostly in Heenemünde, probably totally
wrong, which is in northeast coastal Germany.
That's where Werner Ausenberg comes in which
is the engineer scientist heading the wherefore
shung sky mine shaft which also goes by defense
research association and werner records the names
of the politically cleared intellectuals which
become the osin burner list reinstating these
men to scientific work so i'm gonna cut it there
just on the update of where we're at with germany
and meanwhile slash slightly into the future
but trust me this is all gonna tie together and
be related. February 1945, as the war is winding
down, Germany looks like they're gonna lose,
and the Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary
Force, aka Shafes, which was the headquarters
of the commander of Allied forces in northwest
Europe, which was, by the way, headed by Dwight
D. Eisenhower. They set up T -Force, which amazing
name. by the way, T -Force. It is a joint U .S.
British Army mission. I know this is a lot to
wrap your head around, especially with names
like Supreme Headquarters, Allied Expeditionary
Force. There's a lot of those. I told you long
boring names. I do like that it was a Supreme
Headquarters at least. Yeah, it seems to me like
the Venture Bros and there's all these like random
bad guys. That's just what it reminds me of with
these like long names. T -Force's mission was
to find and take German scientists I saw that
on Wikipedia also and a lot of people talking
about it. I think it downplays the fact that
what they were really concerned about, everybody
knew at this point that there was going to be
some sort of conflict between the East being
the Soviet Union. Yes. and the West being the
US and the Allies over there. Yeah, it's pretty
loaded. And all of the facilities and by extension,
the scientists helping the development in these
facilities was on the eastern side of Germany
and Russia was coming in from the east. Nobody
knew where they were going to stop or what they
were going to claim. It wasn't just vandals they
were worried about. It was the fact that they
were worried about it falling into Russian hands.
It's loaded. There's a lot of things that they're
trying to get at with this. They're trying to
get these targets for various reasons, like Taylor
just mentioned as well, so that it's not lost
forever, etc, etc. They... being the T -Force.
Also wanted to impede Germany's ability complete
the post -war political and economic spheres
and give a boost to the nations involved. This
also meant preventing Nazi technology from getting
into the hands of the Soviet Union or destroying
what could not be seized and T -Force's activities
can be seen as the start of the Cold War. Although
Taylor mentioned the start of the Cold War going
back even further than that. So there's just
a lot of things building up to the Cold War at
this point. Basically when the Soviet Union went
communist is when some people say the Cold War
truly started. It really depends on when you
want to say it started. You can make a case for
it all the way up to the end of World War II.
Yeah and at what point you read on the Wikipedia
page. Yes. And which we could beat in the face.
T -Force grows quickly and examine 5 ,000 German
targets with a high priority on synthetic rubber
and oil catalysts, new designs and armored equipment,
B2 rocket weapons. jet and rocket propelled aircraft,
naval equipment, field radios, secret writing
chemicals, aeromedicine research, gliders, and
scientific and industrial personalities, which
just nicely means people, I guess. Let's not
forget or also learn, as I did, maybe it'll just
be me learning, that the Nazis were in a race
with the Americans to develop the nuclear bomb.
I didn't know that. So this is just to name a
lot of things that T -Force had its eye on. They
set up, being T -Force again, an enemy personnel
exploitation section, peace, epis, to manage
and interrogate these human targets and set up
a detention center in Paris. And then it's later
moved to Kranzberg Castle located outside of
Frankfurt. And this interrogation center was
nicknamed Dusbin, which is a very creative name,
just like all the other names we've come across
so far. So then, only slightly related, not entirely
related. March 1945, a Polish laboratory technician
finds pieces of the Osenberg list, see I told
you it would connect, the whole thing connects,
in a toilet at Bonn University. If you'll remember
that is a list of all the German scientists that
were pulled off the front lines to go develop
scientific things. To go science. Yeah, to go
science. They needed to go science instead of
fight. This list finds its way to the Secret
Intelligence Service of the United Kingdom, and
then they send it to the U .S. intelligence.
So way to go, Werner. I guess you just shouldn't
make a list like that. So not the only Werner
that comes up. Yeah, it's not. It was a very
popular name, and I'm not sure why Werner would
go throw this list down the toilet. It might
not have even been him. awesome to be learned
don't make a list like that they found out anyway
anyhow obviously us army major robert staver
chief of jet propulsion section of the research
and intelligent branch of the u .s army ordinance
corps who's involved in the project uses this
list to compile another list of probably the
same names of German scientists to be captured
and interrogated. The other list was in the toilet
so he had to make this new one and at the top
of his list was Werner von Braun and he's come
up I think already. It was a note thanking Werner
von Braun for pushing the V2 rockets because
it took money away from other military technologies.
Yes, so he was mentioned briefly and briefly
there again because I'm on to something else.
And if you'll remember from just a moment ago,
Major Staver, his original intent with Operation
Overcast was only to interview the scientists
on the list. That was it, apparently. And upon
interviewing the scientists, what he learned
from them changed the operation's purpose. And
on May 22nd, 1945, Major Staver transmits to
the Pentagon headquarters Colonel Joel Holmes'
telegram urging the evacuation of German scientists
and their families as most important for the
Pacific war effort. This meant know -how on advanced
technology like infrared that could be used in
the war against Japan, what technology had been
passed to Japan. hand and halting their research.
Obviously with all these acronyms and nicknames
being thrown around there needed to be just one
more and their tongue twisters. This leads to
the U .S. Joint Chiefs of Staff establishing
the first secret recruitment program Operation
Overcast. is official established July 20th 1945.
The reason this was created was not just for
another fancy name no no it was to assist in
shortening the Japanese war and to aid there
the U .S. post -war military research. Overcast
was the name given by the German scientists family
members for the housing camp where they were
held in Bavaria. In late summer in 1945 the Joint
Chiefs of Staff also established Yeah, the US
doesn't get good at acronyms for at least. Probably
20 years when NASA came back. Yeah and it really
like to me this just makes it all the more confusing
because like what is going on and I had to read
this quite a bit to wrap my head even a little
bit around it. So the Joint Intelligence Objectives
Agency is a subcommittee of the Joint Intelligent
Community which is directly responsible for Operation
Overcast and later Operation Paperclip. Spoiler
alert. I didn't see that coming did you? So the
GOF representatives included the Army's Director
of Intelligence, the Chief of Naval Intelligence,
the Assistant Chief of Air Staff 2, which is
Air Force Intelligence, and a representative
from the State Department. The goal of this agency
was to harness German intellectual resources
to help develop America's arsenal of rockets
and other biological and chemical weapons, and
of course, keep it away from the Russians. Must
at all cost, keep it away from the... Russians.
They also wanted to stop other countries where
these scientists could logically immigrate to
from gaining this knowledge, which were Nazi
sympathizing countries where they already had
escape plans in place, being Spain, Argentina,
and Egypt to name the ones they were most worried
about. Although President Harry Truman forbade
the agency from recruiting any Nazi members or
active Nazi supporters, I'm sure we all know
where this is going. Many of the recruits if
not all of them were obviously Nazis. Intelligence
was crucial to the country's post -war efforts,
so the agency whitewashed and eliminated incriminating
evidence of war crimes from the scientists' records.
Plus all the intellectuals were pulled off of
the front lines, right? So they were totally
harmless and had nothing to do with being actual
Nazis. They did nothing wrong. Some of the duties
of this agency that I was just talking about
the Geowa? We can remember what that acronym
stands for because I can't. The duties include
administrating the Operation Paperclip Policies
slash Operation Overcast, compiling dossiers,
more than 1 ,500 about Nazi and foreign scientists,
engineers and technicians, and being the liaison
to British intelligence officers executing similar
scientific intelligence projects. In a secret
directive circulated September 3rd, 1946, President
Truman officially approves Operation Paperclip
and expands it to include 1 ,000 German scientists
under temporary limited military custody, as
this was for the greater good. As we heard, I
think a lot in this episode, I think even with
our opening. In November 1945, Operation Overcast
was renamed Operation Paperclip by Ordnance Corps
officers who would attach a paperclip to the
folders of those rocket experts whom they wished
to employ in America. It was also renamed because
Camp Overcast, the name of the scientist's headquarters
as we discussed like a couple minutes ago, became
known locally and needed to be changed. So we
move on to, but not really, Operation Paperclip.
It's just official at this time. I know Taylor
already said what Operation Paperclip is. I don't
know why I'm talking about it now because maybe
it's because it's newly formed now. So what we
know Operation Paperclip as today is really everything
I've been talking about under different names.
But that just brings us to the official happenings.
It's an intelligence program of the United States
where more than 1600 German scientists, engineers
and technicians along with their families were
taken from Nazi Germany to the United States
of America. for government employment after the
end of World War II. That being said, the Office
of Special Investigations estimated around 10
,000 Nazi war criminals entered the US from Eastern
Europe after World War II. The whole thing takes
place between 1945 and 1959 but most Nazi collaborators
entered the U .S. through the Displaced Persons
Acts and the Refugee Relief Act of 1953. Supporters
of the act showed only a slight awareness that
Nazi war criminals would enter the U .S. through
them and most of the concern was disallowing
known communists from entering. This shift in
focus was likely due to the pressure of the Cold
War in the years after World War II when the
US focused on countering Soviet communism more
than the Nazis, obviously, this time. Yeah, and
I think that really looking at that history I
set up shows why they were very happy to move
on to communism bad. Let's stop worrying about
the Nazis. It all makes sense. It's still concerning.
Yes. By now with all of this set up it's obviously
easy to look the other way about war crimes when
you have the cold war and the space race happening
which was the primary purpose of Operation Paperclip
kind of. I feel like it had a million different
purposes. I do like that they say that they're
only bringing them in to help these war efforts,
but a lot of them just end up staying forever
and retiring. Well, and I always find it so weird
when somebody says we're doing it for the greater
good. It can't even just be for good because
the things they're doing are so ethically heinous.
Yeah. That they can't even just say good. They
say, no, no, this good is so good. It's it's
greater good. So we can like we can't even consider
an alternate. so good. We could not even entertain
the option of saying no. It wasn't even in the
vocabulary at that time. The focus then kind
of gets on to getting better, faster, and more
precise aircraft, which was essential for future
wars. But also, just to add to things, a short
12 years after World War II, the first satellite
was launched by Russia. And many of the German
scientists had made leaps forward in rocket technology,
which this ended up being the biggest reaper
of fruit. or goods or something, or Operation
Paperclip, which was the space program. The knowledge
these scientists brought with them was quickly
incorporated into American designs, and many
of these scientists gained prominent positions.
Just an aside here, I thought this the whole
time I was doing my research. Like, why were
German scientists so good? Like, why did they
just make this go leaps and bounds in a short
amount of time where, like, nobody else America
could. Germany was a hotbed for science for a
long time leading into World War II. Oh yeah
and especially it was set to become the world
superpower without the wars getting involved.
They would have been... Wow I didn't know that.
Yeah it was just up until the start of the 1900s.
Germany was not a country. Germany was an amalgamation.
Well it was a bunch of feudal empires. Prussia
being the biggest of them, which has only been
brought together in the early 1900s under Otto
von Bismarck. What is the other guy's name? Anyways,
Otto von Bismarck. Yes, that's catchy. But yeah,
I'm glad you could answer that because Kaiser
Wilhelm, who was the ruler of the newly joined
German country. Italy also has a very similar
history in that it is unique. in that fascism
took over in Italy and Germany the way it did
because these are two countries because they
became a nation so late in the game they really
missed out on empire building and the colonies.
So really one of the definitions I've heard that
I quite like for fascism is bringing colonialism
home. I don't know if that quite makes sense
to you but because they missed out on empire
building they had to look at other ways of doing
it so they created underclasses at home. who
were used to create the necessary levels of power
above them. Okay, that makes more sense to me
now. I just needed it explained to me. But yeah,
I'm glad you could answer my question. Part of
it too is because there was a hyper -militarization
of Nazi Germany, there was funding thrown at
places for war efforts. Obviously. One of those
war efforts was creating war weapons, one of
which was the V2. Which had like... Billions
of dollars like lots of billions of dollars thrown
at it. Oh, yeah But way too much money. That's
crazy. But OK, that answers that, because this
whole time I was like, why is everyone all the
brain power in Germany? Yeah. And so part of
it's that. And in fact, Germany lost a lot of
its brain power just prior to the war. I think
this is a good time to bring it up. Not all German
scientists who came over around this time were
Nazis. Two months after Adolf Hitler was appointed
chancellor, the German government issued the
The law for the restoration of the professional
civil service. With some exceptions, none of
which lasted for long. The April 7, 1933 law
ordered that those in government positions who
had at least one Jewish grandparent or were political
opponents of the Nazi party be immediately dismissed.
Thousands of these people lost their jobs as
teachers, judges, police officers, and academics
at the country's top universities. Many of these
people fled. If you were communist, you fled
east. If you were Jewish, you've fled west. Many
people came over prior to World War II as German
scientists, but they were not Nazis. They fled
because of the Nazis. And a 2016 study found
that 15 % of physicists were dismissed from German
universities at this time and those 15 % of physicists
accounted for 64 % of all German physics citations.
And I think part of really why the US was able
to get involved in even the nuclear research
that they were was due to these physicists that
were dismissed like Oppenheimer and Einstein
who came over at this time. Yes. Okay. I'm glad
you put a name to that. But that's my little
bit to add there. You can continue with what
you do. Okay. I mean, that's that's all I really
have to say about Operation Paperclip. I don't
know if you have anything else to add. even though
you just did not really I I think it is point
to be I think you're going to get into that not
all these people are coming over with clean hands
as the governments imply yeah um so I do have
a few brief mentions of people who are coming
over here there are like I said there were a
lot of people that came over I just picked out
a few that maybe you've heard of maybe you haven't
I just want to touch on a few and let you know
of the goings -ons. First I have George Ricky.
I'm sure that's not how you say it, but makes
sense to me. He worked as an engineer at one
of Nazi Germany's largest factories and was responsible
for several of the country's most powerful bombs.
After being brought to the US under Operation
Paperclip, he was accused of close ties with
the SS and the Gestapo, as well as getting workers
from concentration camps. He was the only recruit
to be returned to Germany for trial and he was
acquitted and never returned to the United States.
I actually have a little bit to add about Ricky.
Oh, okay. Werner von Braun, who is the biggest
name that came over in Operation Paperclip, he
ends up being the first head of NASA and absolutely
paramount in them getting to the moon in the
1960s. He was asked to interview and basically
take the stand at the Nuremberg trials with regards
to Ricky because they believe that there was
information that they didn't have that von Braun
had, and he just happened to be on vacation when
inspectors came to talk to him about this. Order
Von Braun was located to Alabama, and he needed
basically permission to go on vacations or leave
at any time. And it just so happened that he
was on vacation at the time they came to talk
to him about this. What a weird coincidence.
That's such a weird coincidence. So next. German
scientist I have brought over, Walton Schreiber.
He was one of the later recruits of Operation
Paperclip, heading to the U .S. in 1951. He got
the Americans' attention after escaping Russian
custody. He was one of the Nazis' top medical
scientists. He worked in medical research for
the Air Force, but not long after a Holocaust
survivor accused him of being involved in medical
experiments committed at Ravensbrück concentration
camp. were confirmed earlier he would have been
tried at Nuremberg instead he chose to go to
Argentina and nothing really happened to him
other than going to Argentina. The fan favorite
Werner von Braun if you've never heard of anyone
you've probably heard of this guy. He was on
the run when he was captured by the Americans
he also ran large factories in Germany which
were heavily staffed by slave labor. While not
directly implicated in war crimes survivors who
were forced to work for him told of harsh treatments
experienced and of course I mean it was slave
laborers being used. I fully believe like I've
done a lot of reading in the last little while
on Warner Von Braun the full story is not nor
will it ever public be known of this guy. Oh
not at all especially since he comes over to
the US and he has such a major role in doing
so much in rocket technology and space travel
which is something that really propelled the
US forward so there's a lot that's never going
to be known about him I did find that fairly
whitewashed as a I mean Just, I mean, that's
anything I could find. He worked on sensitive
projects, including both the American ballistic
missile program, all of these names, like they're
just tongue twisters, I swear. And the rockets
that launched the first American space satellite,
Explorer 1. Obviously, I've alluded that von
Braun was highly sought after, and he was considered
America's format. Form formal expert on space
technology and his research group was incorporated
into NASA He was chief architect at the Saturn
5 launch Vehicle which enabled human missions
to the moon and von Braun and D bus D bus he'll
come up I'm not just saying that never coming
back to him were involved in the design and launch
of the Apollo program and eventually Oversaw
the successful launch that put Neil Armstrong
and Buzz Aldrin on the moon moon, and I'm just
going to jump quick to Kurt Deboos, who is closely
tied with Von Braun. A pioneering rocket engineer,
Deboos would become first director of NASA's
Launch Operations Center. Deboos was named by
Von Braun after seeing the bombs drop in Nagasaki
and Hiroshima by manned aircraft to organize
a division on missile firing, and in the early
1950s they tested the first missiles carrying
nuclear warheads. It is clear the states needed
a better and faster way to deliver a deadly weapon,
and in the early 50s they tested the first missiles
carrying nuclear warheads, deploying the powerful
weapons into the Pacific Ocean. So both von Braun
and de Boos worked for the U .S. until they retired
and were highly honored by the end of their careers.
Von Braun was inducted into the National Academy
of Engineering and received the National Medal
of Science. De Boos has an award named after
him at the National Space Club of Florida and
has a lunar crater named after him. Arthur Rudolph,
one of Germany's top rocketry engineers and close
ally of von Braun. Much of his work took place
at the Middle Work Factory, a site staffed by
prisoners from the Mittelbau -Dora concentration
camps. Eventually he defected to the US and British
forces and was incorporated into post -war US
despite concerns over his background check describing
him as an enthusiastic Nazi loyalist, but it
was for the greater good. He worked on both the
U .S. ballistic missile program and the Saturn
V rocket under Von Braun. Rudolph was highly
decorated and considered one of the program's
most successful recruits. In 1984, under perceived
threat of prosecution of his use of slave labor
from Metal Bow Dora concentration camp at the
middle work, he renounced his U .S. citizenship
and moved to West Germany. He was called in and
interrogated. There was a trade made for the
U .S. not persecuting him. that he would give
up his U .S. citizenship and return to Germany.
I guess at that point they got what they wanted
out of him, and in 1983 he left the U .S. The
recruits of Project Paperclip are dead now, but
they built much of the infrastructure of NASA
and the U .S. ballistic missile program that
we know today. This wasn't the only operation
to ensure the movement of Nazi scientists. Russia
had an equivalent plan, although it is very different
in nature. Operation Oswabia Kim. It was the
Soviet operation which took place on October
22nd, 1946. This is after the war when the Soviet
army unit removed more than 2 ,200 German specialists
with a total of more than 6 ,000 people including
family members from the Soviet occupation zone
of World War II Germany for employment in Soviet
Union. Most of those people served on a five
-year contract just outside of Moscow where they
trained and provided their expertise. to soviet
scientists and then were allowed to do what they
will most of them returned to germany or stayed
in soviet union depending on what they wanted
that is very different i yeah i found it very
different some of them said it was deplorable
conditions others described it as the exact same
conditions of the other scientists and fairly
comfortable by soviet union standards it was
really a fixed term contract for all of them
so weird that the u .s was in such a crunch to
take these scientists away from And with that,
I think that's all we have for now on, what is
this, Project Paperclip? Project Paperclip at
the end of the day, that's what we talked about,
yes. So that's the story of the greater good
winning over and thankfully allowing the Nazis
to get us to space. One question that I had when
I was doing this research is the Nazis weren't
just the Nazis. They were the Axis powers of
Japan, Germany, and Italy. But Project Paperclip
only talks about Germany. Now, why is that? I
found that odd. And I find that is tied with
my question of, like, why German scientists?
Like, why is that what we thought, or not we,
the United States thought was, like, what they
needed to do all of this? Yeah, and a lot of
that does have to do with the V2. Italy isn't
a question at all because Russia and Italy do
not share a border at this time. I use the term
Russia and USSR interchangeably this entire time.
When I use Russia, I mean the greater USSR because
the borders need to make sense for what we're
talking about generally. Italy had surrendered
earlier on and the western allies were able to
ponder what they wished from those scientists
already. Germany was directly on the border with
Russia, they have rocket technology, they were
the greater power compared to Italy. Maybe that's
why. But that leaves the question of why not
Japan? There are reasonable answers that I have
found, one of which is that Russia and Japan
were never on good terms. In fact, fun fact of
the day, technically World War II still continues
on to this day because Japan and Russia have
never signed a peace treaty. I didn't know that.
They actually are still fighting over an island
in the northern part of Japan as to who actually
controls it. And the last time there were talks
in 2019 between Japan and Russia about signing
a peace treaty to formally end World War II,
and there is no update from it. So it is still
technically ongoing. We learned it here on Journey
to the French. Yes. The other part of it is ethnocentrism
maybe a bit of xenophobia i think is better described
as ethnocentrism we didn't even know what japanese
scientists were working on therefore they had
no idea what scientists they would want to recruit
whereas when you're looking at it like when they're
talking about like physics and rocket propulsion
technologies. A lot of the professors and intellectuals
in America would know which prominent professors
and intellectuals in all of Europe were working
on the same technologies or were experts in their
field because it's all shared intellect. Yeah.
So part of it is they just didn't know which
Japanese scientists were worthwhile and what
they were working on. And the last little bit
of it is racism in the sense that they did not
think Japanese scientists will be able to easily
adapt into American society. All good answers.
And that is why this all revolves around Nazis.
And we will we'll talk about feudal Japan at
a later date or I guess Imperial Japan is the
correct way to describe it at a later date. We've
talked about it before that we will do an episode
on their war crimes. At this time, though, we're
just going to leave it at that. And that is the
story of why Nazis got us to the moon and why
they still may be there. If you believe what's
the name of that movie? Is it Iron Sky or it's
Nazis on the dark side of the moon? Oh, I don't
know. It's a good movie. Sounds like a movie
I want to watch. I think it's Iron Sky. Okay.
Yep, Iron Sky. It's a good movie. I highly recommend
it. Proof that the Nazis both got to the moon
and inhabit it to this day, waiting on us to
show our weaknesses. Yeah. But in the meantime,
we'll leave it at that. That has been our explanation
of why we had Nazis come over and Project Caper
clip us out of how we got them here. Chelsea,
any final thoughts? I went through a wide range
of emotions while researching this. It's nothing
new on this podcast that I'm just always shocked
by the ability to turn a blind eye to war crimes
and atrocities that are to happen for the greater
good, I guess. But I think a big part of it,
too, is the people that negotiate the peace trees
at the end of the war generally aren't part of
the class who that had to fight the war. So they.
emotionally. Oh no, it's always the higher -ups.
It's never those people who are fighting any
war. They're able to stay out of it. So they
can think about it in a quote -unquote greater
good sense. Yes, they can because they're not
affected by it the way people fighting in it
and their families are, like the people living
in their countries. Yeah. But those are my thoughts
on it. I think at the end of the day, we all
just formed a little bit of emotions over an
inanimate object that is most commonly found
in office praise. Paper clips. Ah, yes. The paper
clip. Yeah. The noble paper clip. And in the
meantime, we have been Your Noble Podcast, Journey
to the Fringe, giving you those fringy topics
you crave the most. and the education that you
need having already made your new year's resolutions.
I have been Taylor. As always, I have been Chelsea.
We will leave you with that and we will see you
next week. Take care, everybody. Bye. Thank you
for listening to Journey to the Fringe. If you
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