WEBVTT 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:06.419 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join 00:00:06.419 --> 00:00:15.019 us on a journey to the fringe. Hello and welcome 00:00:15.019 --> 00:00:17.660 to Journey to the Fringe. If we haven't made 00:00:17.660 --> 00:00:23.480 it clear yet, just email us. We're lonely. Please. 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:27.519 We are your lonely podcast hosts, Taylor and 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:30.839 Chelsea. Weirdly that we are too, and still lonely, 00:00:31.019 --> 00:00:33.619 but here we are, nonetheless. And weirdly enough, 00:00:33.659 --> 00:00:36.500 also a two -parter on the part two. And I'll 00:00:36.500 --> 00:00:39.200 let Chelsea go from here. Wow, that was incredible. 00:00:39.899 --> 00:00:43.799 Okay, so if you remember from last week, we recapped 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:47.780 Opus Day. We were talking about Opus Day. Right, 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.640 right. I'm pretty sure that's what happened last 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:52.380 week. It's been a long time. It's been a week. 00:00:52.700 --> 00:00:55.780 So we're into the fringy business of Opus Dei. 00:00:56.219 --> 00:01:00.560 Last week, we talked about how they were kind 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:05.439 of implied with Banco Ambrosiano. What else did 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:08.500 we talk about? Oh, the original Vatican Bank 00:01:08.500 --> 00:01:12.319 fraud one. Yeah, that was the one I just said. 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:15.239 Oh, was that? Banco Ambrosiano. I thought that 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:18.879 was the Spanish Bank. And then... Also, another 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:23.040 bank, Spain's Banco Popular. Two banks. We talked 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:25.719 about two banks. Two bancos. Yeah, two bancos 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:30.819 last week in which Opus Dei had ties in. I'm 00:01:30.819 --> 00:01:32.799 not going to tell you all about it in this episode 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:35.200 because that was last week's episode. You can 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.599 always listen to it again. We do make that available 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.000 for you. It's just a special benefit of listening 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:43.299 to us. Just email us the 20, okay? Email us. 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:47.950 It's kind of on the honor system. So let's just 00:01:47.950 --> 00:01:51.909 jump right into the other allegations, I guess, 00:01:51.969 --> 00:01:55.489 of what Opus Dei is up to in this day and age. 00:01:55.549 --> 00:01:58.150 I hope I summarized that good enough. If not, 00:01:58.250 --> 00:02:02.409 too bad. Allegations of human trafficking. Yep. 00:02:02.530 --> 00:02:06.349 Okay. Yep. And these are called the Little Sisters. 00:02:06.810 --> 00:02:10.949 Okay. That's a terrible name. I'm not looking 00:02:10.949 --> 00:02:13.789 forward to this. Yep. This one's a very dark 00:02:13.789 --> 00:02:17.729 one. currently being discussed, and I believe 00:02:17.729 --> 00:02:22.550 in court as well, in 2025 -2026, in Argentina, 00:02:22.669 --> 00:02:26.310 a group of women, former numerary assistants, 00:02:26.550 --> 00:02:29.949 if you will remember back from our Kohl's Notes 00:02:29.949 --> 00:02:33.330 of Opus Dei, these are the women who are segregated 00:02:33.330 --> 00:02:37.090 to be nannies, cooks, you know, take care of 00:02:37.090 --> 00:02:39.909 all that stuff, because that's what you do as 00:02:39.909 --> 00:02:44.009 a female. who have filed lawsuits alleging that 00:02:44.009 --> 00:02:47.469 they were trafficked. They claim they were recruited 00:02:47.469 --> 00:02:50.789 as teenagers from poor families with the promise 00:02:50.789 --> 00:02:53.430 of an education under the guise of attending 00:02:53.430 --> 00:02:57.110 hospitality schools, but were instead allegedly 00:02:57.110 --> 00:03:01.229 trafficked across borders, Paraguay, Bolivia, 00:03:01.469 --> 00:03:04.789 Uruguay, where they were instead forced into 00:03:04.789 --> 00:03:08.050 unpaid domestic servitude. cleaning the houses 00:03:08.050 --> 00:03:11.610 of wealthy members for decades without pay or 00:03:11.610 --> 00:03:15.210 social security, essentially being indentured 00:03:15.210 --> 00:03:20.030 servants for God. In a major 2024 -2025 legal 00:03:20.030 --> 00:03:23.930 battle, federal prosecutors in Argentina accused 00:03:23.930 --> 00:03:27.330 Opus Dei of human trafficking and labor exploitation. 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:32.699 43 women, mostly from rural backgrounds, who 00:03:32.699 --> 00:03:35.439 were recruited as teenagers, some as young as 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:39.139 12 or 16, are the victims. I'm sure there's more. 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:41.840 These are the women who are currently involved 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:44.520 in this legal action. I'm just curious, Chelsea, 00:03:44.620 --> 00:03:46.780 are they from one particular country or are they 00:03:46.780 --> 00:03:49.319 just kind of from all over? It sounds like they're 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:52.789 kind of from all over. It sounds like as... being 00:03:52.789 --> 00:03:56.270 trafficked, and it looks like mainly Argentina, 00:03:56.569 --> 00:03:59.770 but we're looking at Paraguay, Bolivia, a lot 00:03:59.770 --> 00:04:03.389 of Central South America countries. For decades, 00:04:03.750 --> 00:04:07.210 they worked 12 to 15 hours a day cooking and 00:04:07.210 --> 00:04:09.969 cleaning for the elite members. They alleged 00:04:09.969 --> 00:04:13.569 they were never paid, had their wages redistributed 00:04:13.569 --> 00:04:16.449 back to the organization, and were often denied 00:04:16.449 --> 00:04:19.910 social security or pension contributions. This 00:04:19.910 --> 00:04:23.170 is an active and evolving legal situation. Federal 00:04:23.170 --> 00:04:26.529 prosecutors in Argentina have officially indicted 00:04:26.529 --> 00:04:29.629 high -ranking members of Opus Dei. I'm going 00:04:29.629 --> 00:04:33.000 to post some of the sources for it. this up in 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:36.279 the episode notes. I have an article from The 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:40.360 Guardian titled, I Became Like a Slave, Why 43 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:43.100 Women Are Suing the Secretive Opus Dei Catholic 00:04:43.100 --> 00:04:46.959 Group in Argentina. So the indictment specifically 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:52.199 names Monsignor Mariano Fazio the second in command 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.560 of Opus Dei worldwide as a defendant. So I guess 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.220 there are people who are, like, in charge and 00:04:59.220 --> 00:05:02.579 stuff. So I wonder. I am curious about how. Nobody's 00:05:02.579 --> 00:05:04.680 in charge. He's just a number two. He's number 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:07.220 two. But who would be the number one? No number 00:05:07.220 --> 00:05:10.040 one. There's lots of number twos. He's the highest 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:15.310 they go. Yeah. So remember back from the last 00:05:15.310 --> 00:05:18.110 episode, Gareth Gore, who wrote that book, which 00:05:18.110 --> 00:05:20.790 was a little bit of a spoiler alert because in 00:05:20.790 --> 00:05:23.209 along with that, when I told you the topics, 00:05:23.250 --> 00:05:26.949 I did say human trafficking. He got into the, 00:05:27.009 --> 00:05:28.970 he's a pretty interesting, I've listened to some 00:05:28.970 --> 00:05:31.850 podcasts with him on there. He originally got 00:05:31.850 --> 00:05:34.470 into this doing some investigation on the Spanish 00:05:34.470 --> 00:05:37.750 bank and he got into like, he ended up writing 00:05:37.750 --> 00:05:40.509 this crazy book. He's the guy who was on majority 00:05:40.509 --> 00:05:44.170 report. Gareth Gore. Yeah. Yeah. So there you 00:05:44.170 --> 00:05:47.810 go. I will give that a listen. So he reports 00:05:47.810 --> 00:05:52.230 on this as well. And he just goes crazy into 00:05:52.230 --> 00:05:54.970 Opus Dei after finding this out about investigating 00:05:54.970 --> 00:05:57.889 the Spanish bank and their ties to Opus Dei. 00:05:57.990 --> 00:06:01.329 So he interviews whistleblowers and looks into 00:06:01.329 --> 00:06:05.209 investigations, particularly in Argentina, involving 00:06:05.209 --> 00:06:07.629 the recruitment of young girls from low -income 00:06:07.629 --> 00:06:10.189 families. He alleges they were lured into the 00:06:10.189 --> 00:06:12.949 organization and forced into years of unpaid 00:06:12.949 --> 00:06:16.529 domestic labor at Opus Dei centers. So there's 00:06:16.529 --> 00:06:19.410 that. Pretty good. That one's ongoing. we'll 00:06:19.410 --> 00:06:21.889 do a mini in the future just to update what's 00:06:21.889 --> 00:06:26.009 going on with it the next is as i mentioned in 00:06:26.009 --> 00:06:29.639 our last episode as well opus day Like, you kind 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:32.360 of get some cult vibes off of it, right? Oh, 00:06:32.379 --> 00:06:36.740 yeah, for sure. Gore also delves into the secretive 00:06:36.740 --> 00:06:39.899 world of numeraries and their cult -like practices 00:06:39.899 --> 00:06:42.800 of Opus Dei. If you'll remember, the numeraries 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:46.220 are celibate members who live in gender -segregated 00:06:46.220 --> 00:06:50.019 houses. He details the mortification of the flesh, 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:52.500 which is the use of the cellus, the spike chain 00:06:52.500 --> 00:06:56.860 around the thigh, and the discipline, whip. I 00:06:56.860 --> 00:07:00.560 guess that means, with no further details. So 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.720 good notes, Chelsea. Good work. No notes. No 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.680 notes. No more details. Just whip. I did watch 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:12.300 an interview with, they're funny with their secretive. 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:15.360 They're not allowed to do interviews, really, 00:07:15.459 --> 00:07:18.800 if they're a member of Opus Dei. regarding practices 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:21.220 or anything makes sense probably unless it's 00:07:21.220 --> 00:07:24.040 portrayed in the proper light yeah like recruitment 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:26.100 videos or something or you know yeah it's another 00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:28.100 Opus Dei person doing the interview yeah yeah 00:07:28.100 --> 00:07:31.519 so it was only ex -members that they were able 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:34.199 to some wouldn't even give their identity but 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:37.040 one of the guys that I watched he showed the 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.579 thing that goes around the thigh he still had 00:07:39.579 --> 00:07:42.560 it for some I don't know why you would keep that 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:44.819 as like I think at some point you start to like 00:07:44.819 --> 00:07:47.910 it or like mean I don't know that he would be 00:07:47.910 --> 00:07:50.810 wearing it. Do you think that he would be wearing 00:07:50.810 --> 00:07:53.629 it if he left Opus Dei? Maybe. I don't know. 00:07:53.790 --> 00:07:58.110 He didn't lift up his pant leg and it was on. 00:07:58.149 --> 00:08:00.370 Old people are constantly wearing ties out in 00:08:00.370 --> 00:08:02.310 public despite the fact that they're not comfy 00:08:02.310 --> 00:08:04.670 and not required for their everyday life. I never 00:08:04.670 --> 00:08:07.449 thought about how uncomfy a tie would be. Is 00:08:07.449 --> 00:08:09.629 it uncomfy? Yeah. I mean, it's something that's 00:08:09.629 --> 00:08:11.850 threatening to strangle you the entire time you're 00:08:11.850 --> 00:08:15.899 out using it. That's true. Just like lightly 00:08:15.899 --> 00:08:18.459 strangling you throughout the day. Never thought 00:08:18.459 --> 00:08:20.720 of it that way. Just give me a reminder that 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.819 your life can be taken very quickly. Due to your 00:08:24.819 --> 00:08:27.100 own personal choice, or at least your boss's 00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:28.959 personal choice. I should give people more ties 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:33.899 for presents. I really don't hope you get me 00:08:33.899 --> 00:08:36.840 for Secret Santa this year. That is a threat, 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:39.460 I will tell them. I'll write it in their card. 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:45.019 You could have gotten a tie. No, I got you this 00:08:45.019 --> 00:08:48.220 tie as a threat. Oh, good. Don't forget, you 00:08:48.220 --> 00:08:52.820 could die. Recruitment tactics used include grooming 00:08:52.820 --> 00:08:56.679 child numeraries as young as 14. As I was saying, 00:08:56.799 --> 00:08:58.879 it was... We knew about that, yeah. In the other 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:02.559 one, it was young girl. It's almost like grooming. 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:05.860 Oh, it is grooming. Completely like grooming. 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:08.899 Weirdly, there haven't been sex allegations, 00:09:09.179 --> 00:09:13.320 which I'm not saying... As like, I don't know. 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.440 I don't know how to move forward with that. Other 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:18.519 than making that statement and being quiet. I 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:20.960 mean, it's just an assumption at this point because 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.580 they're part of the Catholic Church. Yeah. I 00:09:23.580 --> 00:09:27.120 don't think I directly address any sexual stuff 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:30.039 in this. But you gotta think. They are Catholics. 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:32.139 You've got a lot of celibate men that, like, 00:09:32.139 --> 00:09:34.720 that's how the entire Catholic Church is supposed 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.299 to work. And man, that did not work out. No, 00:09:37.299 --> 00:09:39.759 it does not work out at all. Which is something, 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:41.879 actually, I'm glad you brought that up. Because, 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:45.279 I mean, that alone has huge implications of all 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:47.700 the celibate men altogether. Like, that's never 00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:51.340 good. So, yeah, they have their grooming. They 00:09:51.340 --> 00:09:54.600 have psychological control. Allegations of members 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:57.759 being prescribed heavy psychiatric drugs to remain 00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:00.100 compliant. We've already discussed... Like how 00:10:00.100 --> 00:10:02.799 heavy? 20 pounds? 30 pounds? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. 00:10:03.450 --> 00:10:07.129 And we've already discussed emails being monitored, 00:10:07.230 --> 00:10:11.470 financial control. So there are a lot of cult 00:10:11.470 --> 00:10:15.090 -like practices going on in this. Control of 00:10:15.090 --> 00:10:18.690 banks, right? That you see in cults. Yeah. I'm 00:10:18.690 --> 00:10:21.169 just waiting to hear which news source they own 00:10:21.169 --> 00:10:24.259 at this point. Yeah. Because that's when you 00:10:24.259 --> 00:10:25.779 really know you've made it as a cult, is when 00:10:25.779 --> 00:10:28.539 you own a newspaper. That is very true, actually, 00:10:28.659 --> 00:10:31.139 if I've learned anything from our podcast. Next 00:10:31.139 --> 00:10:34.559 point is, I can't wait to find out what this 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:39.080 means, because I can't remember. the pinky and 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:42.320 the brain level of influence. There is a persistent 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:46.559 theory that Opus Dei operates like a white masonry, 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:49.740 a secret society of the elite. High -level reach 00:10:49.740 --> 00:10:52.720 because they target intellectuals and leaders. 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:56.039 People have accused them of placing members in 00:10:56.039 --> 00:11:00.220 the U .S. Supreme Court, the FBI, and major European 00:11:00.220 --> 00:11:03.360 governments to steer global policy toward ultra 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:06.590 -conservative religious goals. Why are there 00:11:06.590 --> 00:11:08.809 so many that want ultra -conservative? Why can't 00:11:08.809 --> 00:11:10.830 we have one that's pushing towards socialism? 00:11:10.889 --> 00:11:14.269 I know, right? I know. Like, just give us one. 00:11:14.549 --> 00:11:17.669 Come on, Opus Dei. You don't have it in you, 00:11:17.730 --> 00:11:20.750 obviously. You're Opus Dei. But, like, I get 00:11:20.750 --> 00:11:23.250 what you're saying. Like, why not have, like, 00:11:23.289 --> 00:11:26.700 a liberal, very liberal cult? Do they exist? 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.639 I don't think they would. I'm sure they do. I 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:31.460 would have to think about it. That's kind of 00:11:31.460 --> 00:11:33.299 off the top of our head at this point, but I'm 00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:35.480 sure somebody will be screaming at us for it. 00:11:35.500 --> 00:11:37.580 Oh, that would be a good episode. We should find 00:11:37.580 --> 00:11:39.519 one and do an episode on that. I'd be interested 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:41.759 in that. Maybe I'll join them. I don't know. 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.039 I don't know yet. I haven't heard the episode, 00:11:44.259 --> 00:11:46.500 so I don't know if I'm interested yet. Maybe 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:48.580 one day I'll find out. Okay, so they have high 00:11:48.580 --> 00:11:52.179 -level reach. Which we kind of had to discuss 00:11:52.179 --> 00:11:54.379 in this episode or the last one. I can't remember 00:11:54.379 --> 00:11:56.220 now. They're all blending together. It's been 00:11:56.220 --> 00:11:58.120 a week. How am I supposed to remember? Well, 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.299 J .D. Vance is out there. Like we talked about 00:12:00.299 --> 00:12:02.519 him fairly early on. Yeah, J .D. Vance. Something 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:05.639 about him. The shadow government. Critics point 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.059 to their $47 million headquarters in Manhattan 00:12:09.059 --> 00:12:12.940 and their influence in Washington, D .C. as evidence 00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:15.840 that they aren't just a prayer group, but a political 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.659 lobbying machine disguised as a ministry with 00:12:18.659 --> 00:12:21.279 ties even to the current president. Good point. 00:12:21.580 --> 00:12:25.320 That's a very good point, my notes. I still don't 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:27.299 know what pinky in the brain level of influence 00:12:27.299 --> 00:12:33.889 means, though. Who came up with that? The next 00:12:33.889 --> 00:12:39.250 one is modern slavery in plain sight. Whistleblowers 00:12:39.250 --> 00:12:42.970 like Eileen Allen, whose memoir, I Am Eileen, 00:12:43.090 --> 00:12:46.029 was recently released, describe a life of total 00:12:46.029 --> 00:12:49.049 control. She was an Opus Dei member, in case 00:12:49.049 --> 00:12:51.509 I don't say that. Quick question for you, Chelsea. 00:12:51.590 --> 00:12:53.789 Are most of the people that are complaining about 00:12:53.789 --> 00:12:58.169 Opus Dei women? Yeah. Okay. So the celibate men 00:12:58.169 --> 00:13:00.710 actually don't, like, overall aren't complaining 00:13:00.710 --> 00:13:03.850 that much about the situation. No, I can't say 00:13:03.850 --> 00:13:05.389 that. No, and you did say some, like he does 00:13:05.389 --> 00:13:07.850 interview them, but it just seems like the specific 00:13:07.850 --> 00:13:09.710 ones that were coming out, like the lawsuit and 00:13:09.710 --> 00:13:13.409 then this woman are women. Yeah, you're not wrong. 00:13:14.129 --> 00:13:18.759 I... Did not include any men it looks like so 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:20.980 far. I don't believe I do. No, but you did talk 00:13:20.980 --> 00:13:23.200 about that. You did talk about that one that 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.919 Gareth Gore did interview who still keeps his 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:29.759 thigh slasher thing. That was not Gareth Gore. 00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:32.259 That was just a documentary that I... Just an 00:13:32.259 --> 00:13:35.080 interview. Okay, okay. There were lots of men 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:38.220 in there speaking out about them. These ones 00:13:38.220 --> 00:13:42.210 are more... It seems like women are more... easily 00:13:42.210 --> 00:13:44.350 going on a record about it then. But they're 00:13:44.350 --> 00:13:48.090 not getting, it doesn't seem like, to positions 00:13:48.090 --> 00:13:52.309 of power within Opus Dei. They're actually treated 00:13:52.309 --> 00:13:56.090 quite poorly. And it basically is modern slavery. 00:13:56.509 --> 00:14:02.009 Their role within this organization is being 00:14:02.009 --> 00:14:04.250 a slave. Oh, is to be a maid. An unpaid maid. 00:14:04.389 --> 00:14:10.820 And that is slavery. So they do have more to 00:14:10.820 --> 00:14:13.399 complain about. I mean, the men just have to 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:17.039 complain about being celibate. Yeah, but the 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.820 women complain about being celibate, but also 00:14:19.820 --> 00:14:24.700 a slave. Yes, exactly. So, I mean, the men can 00:14:24.700 --> 00:14:27.110 come out and talk out against it. These are what 00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:29.629 I believe to be a lot more controversial than 00:14:29.629 --> 00:14:33.110 just the men being like, ugh, like, I had to 00:14:33.110 --> 00:14:36.730 self -flagellate. But do the men technically 00:14:36.730 --> 00:14:39.090 not meet the definition of slavery, too, in that 00:14:39.090 --> 00:14:41.429 they don't have any money? That's true. Because 00:14:41.429 --> 00:14:43.669 they have to give it all to the church. That's 00:14:43.669 --> 00:14:46.110 true. But also, I don't know, does that meet 00:14:46.110 --> 00:14:48.149 the definition of slavery? I don't know. What 00:14:48.149 --> 00:14:51.990 is the definition? I have a vague idea of what 00:14:51.990 --> 00:14:53.149 slavery is. But then they have to give it all 00:14:53.149 --> 00:14:56.490 to the church. How do you define it? point slavery 00:14:56.490 --> 00:14:59.929 like what is the definition the state of being 00:14:59.929 --> 00:15:05.210 a slave oh good that's exactly you've been optimized 00:15:05.210 --> 00:15:11.529 so well okay let's see miriam webster dictionary 00:15:11.529 --> 00:15:16.330 defines slavery as the practice or institution 00:15:16.330 --> 00:15:20.590 of holding people as chattel involuntary and 00:15:20.590 --> 00:15:23.370 under threat of violence The state of a person 00:15:23.370 --> 00:15:25.789 who is forced, usually under threat of violence, 00:15:25.850 --> 00:15:29.370 to labor for the profit of another. A situation 00:15:29.370 --> 00:15:32.929 or practice in which people are coerced to under 00:15:32.929 --> 00:15:35.970 conditions that are exploitative. Submission 00:15:35.970 --> 00:15:39.850 to a dominating influence. Yeah, I mean it does 00:15:39.850 --> 00:15:42.570 fit that. Yeah, I guess they both do. So. It's 00:15:42.570 --> 00:15:45.190 just like different coercions and like situations 00:15:45.190 --> 00:15:47.889 that they find themselves in, but yeah. Yeah, 00:15:47.889 --> 00:15:53.850 so Opus Dei slave owners. Slaves. Just in general, 00:15:53.909 --> 00:15:57.090 not just female slaves. Let's continue to talk 00:15:57.090 --> 00:16:00.940 about... modern slavery in plain sight. Whistleblowers 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:03.779 like Eileen Allen, she describes a life of total 00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:06.940 control. Directors allegedly read all incoming 00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:10.100 and outgoing mail, even phone calls to parents 00:16:10.100 --> 00:16:13.100 were monitored or forbidden. Members were often 00:16:13.100 --> 00:16:15.840 told that leaving the group was betraying God 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.639 and would lead to eternal damnation for their 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:21.840 entire family. That would be hard if you, like, 00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:25.629 really believe in a religion. That's like, the 00:16:25.629 --> 00:16:27.769 Jehovah's basically say that too. Yeah, no, that's 00:16:27.769 --> 00:16:29.370 true. Although the question really is, are they 00:16:29.370 --> 00:16:32.649 cults too? Yeah. And yeah, we run into really 00:16:32.649 --> 00:16:35.389 fine questions about what makes a cult versus 00:16:35.389 --> 00:16:38.289 a religion. Yeah, in my eyes all the same. But 00:16:38.289 --> 00:16:41.210 slavery probably makes the cult. Yep, it does. 00:16:41.470 --> 00:16:44.950 I believe that's a fact. Many members found themselves 00:16:44.950 --> 00:16:47.870 with zero savings or even bank accounts after 00:16:47.870 --> 00:16:50.570 decades of service, leaving them trapped because 00:16:50.570 --> 00:16:53.860 they had no financial means to escape. That's 00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:56.080 financial abuse. That is the hard thing, yeah. 00:16:56.179 --> 00:16:58.019 No, nobody can leave because, like, where are 00:16:58.019 --> 00:17:00.659 they going to go? Because nobody has a bank account. 00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:04.200 That's crazy. Allen describes how the organization 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.940 allegedly used the blacklist of forbidden books 00:17:07.940 --> 00:17:10.880 and films and how directors would routinely read 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.380 and censor members' personal letters to family. 00:17:13.500 --> 00:17:17.869 That's insane. She details the vocational trap 00:17:17.869 --> 00:17:20.230 where leaving the group was equating with losing 00:17:20.230 --> 00:17:23.630 your soul or spiritual suicide. Eileen's account 00:17:23.630 --> 00:17:27.190 provides the internal perspective of the psychological 00:17:27.190 --> 00:17:29.910 and physical control used within the centers. 00:17:30.250 --> 00:17:35.410 Yeah, so, slaves. Next one, the Silas and mind 00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:38.319 control. Pop culture, thanks to the Da Vinci 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:41.880 Code, loves the scary monk trope. Celibate members 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:46.680 do use the celis, the spike chain, as we've clarified 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:50.200 multiple times in these episodes, and the discipline, 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:53.240 usually for two hours a day or during specific 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.460 prayers. Ex -members have described psychological 00:17:56.460 --> 00:18:00.569 coercion, where directors... I almost called 00:18:00.569 --> 00:18:04.109 them dictators, read their outgoing mail, dictated 00:18:04.109 --> 00:18:06.130 which books they could read and force them to 00:18:06.130 --> 00:18:08.809 confess their private thoughts to lay superiors, 00:18:08.869 --> 00:18:11.910 not just priests, which is a huge no -no in standard 00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:15.329 Catholic practice. While Opus Dei publicly downplays 00:18:15.329 --> 00:18:19.410 corporal mortification as minor discomfort, whistleblowers 00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:22.069 describe a more intense psychological environment. 00:18:22.529 --> 00:18:25.589 The Celis? Former members confirm the use of 00:18:25.589 --> 00:18:28.150 the spiked thigh chain for two hours daily to 00:18:28.150 --> 00:18:31.140 describe it as leaving small prick holes in the 00:18:31.140 --> 00:18:33.599 flesh that made them self -conscious about ever 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.440 wearing a swimsuit or shorts around non -members. 00:18:36.619 --> 00:18:39.160 Some members were encouraged to sleep on the 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:41.839 floor or without a pillow as a form of nightly 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:45.480 mortification. I did see one that was made to 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.059 use a phone book instead of a pillow. Like as 00:18:48.059 --> 00:18:50.200 punishment or because they had to memorize it? 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:55.089 The phone book. Yeah. Both. Okay. Yeah. Founders 00:18:55.089 --> 00:18:57.930 allegedly taught that the body must be beaten 00:18:57.930 --> 00:19:01.309 into a slave so it doesn't turn traitor to the 00:19:01.309 --> 00:19:05.089 spirit. Aha. Yeah. A source for this one, The 00:19:05.089 --> 00:19:07.970 Case Against Opus Dei, National Catholic Reporter. 00:19:08.329 --> 00:19:11.809 I'll throw it into the episode notes for you 00:19:11.809 --> 00:19:15.150 to do much more research or little research. 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.339 It's a do as you choose type thing. It'll be 00:19:18.339 --> 00:19:20.039 in the notes waiting for you if you want those. 00:19:20.059 --> 00:19:22.359 We have no force to work on this podcast. Yeah, 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:26.220 it's true. So we have some current drama going 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:29.160 on with the Pope. The current Pope, Pope Leo 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:33.000 the, I think we landed on 9th. 9th, yes. This 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.240 is actually a hot topic in the church right now. 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:42.069 As of late 2025, early 2026. Pope Leo IX, following 00:19:42.069 --> 00:19:45.130 the lead of Pope Francis, has been tightening 00:19:45.130 --> 00:19:48.269 the leash on Opus Dei. For decades, the leader 00:19:48.269 --> 00:19:51.750 of Opus Dei was usually made a bishop. What? 00:19:52.549 --> 00:19:56.490 Like, at the Vatican? Yeah, just a high up person. 00:19:56.690 --> 00:20:00.390 That is insane. Now, the Vatican says he cannot 00:20:00.390 --> 00:20:04.200 be a bishop no more. Huh. Yeah. The Vatican wants 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:07.559 to make sure Opus Dei is seen as a group of regular 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:12.740 people, the lay people, as they had said, serving 00:20:12.740 --> 00:20:15.880 God, rather than a mini church within the church. 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.279 They're basically being told you're a service 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:21.299 club for the soul, not a private kingdom. By 00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:24.359 Pope Knight. Leo the Knight. Yeah, Leo. Forgot 00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:29.480 the Leo there. So I'm sure you were really anticipating 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:33.859 this one. And this is modern political influence 00:20:33.859 --> 00:20:37.200 that Opus Dei had. It got my juices flowing with 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.880 all that talk about their headquarters in Washington, 00:20:40.099 --> 00:20:43.180 D .C. and stuff like that. Even Taylor talking 00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:46.579 about J .D. Vance. Gore's book goes into this 00:20:46.579 --> 00:20:50.910 as well. Sounds like a really good read. He looks 00:20:50.910 --> 00:20:54.450 into this and makes waves by connecting the organization 00:20:54.450 --> 00:20:58.250 to current U .S. politics. Gore tracks Opus Dei's 00:20:58.250 --> 00:21:01.269 role in bankrolling right -wing causes and its 00:21:01.269 --> 00:21:04.349 links to figures like Leonard Leo and the Heritage 00:21:04.349 --> 00:21:06.890 Foundation. Leonard Leo, he's the head of the 00:21:06.890 --> 00:21:09.029 Heritage Foundation. Leonard Leo and the Heritage, 00:21:09.369 --> 00:21:11.849 head of the Heritage Foundation. They're basically, 00:21:11.970 --> 00:21:15.299 and if you need an idea of who this is. He tells 00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:18.700 Trump who to appoint as judges. Okay. And he 00:21:18.700 --> 00:21:21.859 got a ton of money. Like somebody donated several 00:21:21.859 --> 00:21:24.960 billion dollars to them two years ago. And like 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:27.579 all three of the Supreme Court justices that 00:21:27.579 --> 00:21:29.579 Trump put up there were members of the Heritage 00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:31.740 Foundation. And pretty much everybody who's been 00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:33.539 appointed as a federal judge is a member of the 00:21:33.539 --> 00:21:36.119 Heritage Foundation. They're on a list of people 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:37.940 that Leonard Leo just gives to Trump to appoint. 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:41.880 Cool. Sounds fantastic. Probably a good episode 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.880 of its own at some point. Probably. Yeah. We're 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.920 not quite a politics show. We're a fringe topic 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.140 show where we talk about how shitty the politics 00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:56.319 are at this point. And not to that point, but 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.420 it was a good point that we're not a politics 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:06.759 show. Kind of. We're a fringe show. I mean, don't 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:08.740 come here for the politics because you're going 00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:14.619 to get Bigfoot too. But I gotta say, Bigfoot 00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:20.619 is probably an anarcho -socialist. We do it all 00:22:20.619 --> 00:22:24.950 here, Journey to the Fringe. Investigative journalists 00:22:24.950 --> 00:22:28.029 have documented deep ties between his administration 00:22:28.029 --> 00:22:31.430 and individuals closely associated with the organization. 00:22:32.089 --> 00:22:35.569 The connection is generally described not as 00:22:35.569 --> 00:22:38.769 a direct religious affiliation, but as a strategic 00:22:38.769 --> 00:22:41.990 alliance between Trump's mega movement and the 00:22:41.990 --> 00:22:44.450 traditional Catholic power structure in Washington, 00:22:44.910 --> 00:22:48.799 D .C. The legal architect, Leonard Leo. The most 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.599 significant link is Leonard Leo, the longtime 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:54.200 leader of the Federalist Society. Oh, sorry. 00:22:54.259 --> 00:22:56.180 Yeah. Federalist Society, not the Heritage Foundation. 00:22:56.619 --> 00:22:58.599 Heritage Foundation is different. It's the Federalist 00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:00.359 Society that he's the head of. Okay. Well, now 00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:03.339 I'm confused. Yeah. Okay. Heritage Foundation 00:23:03.339 --> 00:23:06.460 is something different. Okay. So what you were 00:23:06.460 --> 00:23:09.660 talking about was the Federalist Society? Yes. 00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:11.440 Okay. The Federalist Society is the thing that 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.160 lawyers join and are members of. Okay. So... 00:23:14.670 --> 00:23:18.849 And my next point is exactly what Taylor pretty 00:23:18.849 --> 00:23:22.690 much gave a rundown of. So Leo, he's the primary 00:23:22.690 --> 00:23:26.130 architect of Trump's judicial appointments, including 00:23:26.130 --> 00:23:29.289 the selection of Supreme Court Justices Neil 00:23:29.289 --> 00:23:35.309 Gorsuch. Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett. 00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:39.049 Leo is a prominent Catholic layman with deep 00:23:39.049 --> 00:23:41.869 ties to Opus Dei. He has served on the board 00:23:41.869 --> 00:23:44.789 of the Catholic Information Center, CIC, and 00:23:44.789 --> 00:23:50.690 DIC, which is run by Opus Dei priests and serves 00:23:50.690 --> 00:23:53.130 as a hub for the conservative Catholic elite. 00:23:53.430 --> 00:23:57.579 So weird. Gore's book argues that the overturning 00:23:57.579 --> 00:24:00.900 of Roe versus Wade was the culmination of decades 00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:04.000 of lobbying by this Opus Dei adjacent network. 00:24:04.299 --> 00:24:08.640 I hate that. Okay, so Project 2025 and Kevin 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.079 Roberts. Kevin Roberts, the president of the 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:14.559 Heritage Foundation, which is a totally different 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:17.079 thing, I guess, from the Federalist Society, 00:24:17.420 --> 00:24:19.380 from what I've learned so far. They are. Yeah, 00:24:19.579 --> 00:24:23.119 that one's a, oh, what was their name? Koch Brothers. 00:24:23.769 --> 00:24:26.430 thing they funded it as a political movement 00:24:26.430 --> 00:24:29.750 we did something with that didn't we we've talked 00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:32.509 about the Koch brothers before David and I think 00:24:32.509 --> 00:24:35.230 David's the one that's left but um probably just 00:24:35.230 --> 00:24:41.210 keep going yeah I intend to thank you So Kevin 00:24:41.210 --> 00:24:43.410 Roberts, the president of the Heritage Foundation 00:24:43.410 --> 00:24:46.630 and the driving force behind Project 2025, is 00:24:46.630 --> 00:24:50.009 another key figure. Roberts has publicly stated 00:24:50.009 --> 00:24:52.970 that he receives regular spiritual guidance from 00:24:52.970 --> 00:24:55.410 the Opus Dei -led Catholic Information Center. 00:24:56.009 --> 00:24:58.569 Critics and journalists like Gore point out that 00:24:58.569 --> 00:25:01.930 many of the policy goals in Project 2025, such 00:25:01.930 --> 00:25:05.049 as restructuring the federal government and implementing 00:25:05.049 --> 00:25:08.470 strict socially conservative laws, align with 00:25:08.470 --> 00:25:11.710 the integralist philosophy often found in Opus 00:25:11.710 --> 00:25:14.069 Dei circles which seek to integrate Catholic 00:25:14.069 --> 00:25:17.680 teaching into civil law. Several high -ranking 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:20.339 members of Trump's first and current administrations 00:25:20.339 --> 00:25:22.380 have had documented ties to the organization 00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:26.180 or centers. Mick Mulvaney, Trump's former acting 00:25:26.180 --> 00:25:29.119 chief of staff and OMB director, was a frequent 00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.039 visitor to the Catholic Information Center and 00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:34.220 has been linked to the network Gore describes 00:25:34.220 --> 00:25:39.309 as the Opus Dei syndicate in D .C. Pat Cipollone. 00:25:39.769 --> 00:25:43.609 Trump's former White House counsel also has longstanding 00:25:43.609 --> 00:25:46.329 ties to the same conservative Catholic circles 00:25:46.329 --> 00:25:49.769 in Washington. And apparently J .D. Vance. I 00:25:49.769 --> 00:25:52.470 don't even think that J .D. Vance makes it onto 00:25:52.470 --> 00:25:55.130 this list. Because he doesn't do anything, let's 00:25:55.130 --> 00:25:57.049 face it. It's true. If he actually did something 00:25:57.049 --> 00:25:59.609 or was entertaining in any way, maybe we would 00:25:59.609 --> 00:26:04.970 talk about him. He gets booed a lot. Interestingly, 00:26:05.109 --> 00:26:09.230 as of late 2025, early 2026, the relationship 00:26:09.230 --> 00:26:13.289 has shown signs of strain. Trump has recently 00:26:13.289 --> 00:26:16.549 lashed out at Leonardo Leo, calling him a sleazebag 00:26:16.549 --> 00:26:19.769 on Truth Social after some of Leo's judicial 00:26:19.769 --> 00:26:21.549 picks did not rule. Yeah, they didn't do what 00:26:21.549 --> 00:26:25.390 he wanted. Yeah. Conversely many traditionalist 00:26:25.390 --> 00:26:28.470 Catholics associated with Opus Dei have expressed 00:26:28.470 --> 00:26:31.410 conflict over Trump's shifting rhetoric on certain 00:26:31.410 --> 00:26:34.269 issues even while supporting his broader judicial 00:26:34.269 --> 00:26:38.319 and regulatory agenda. And then there's the Black 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.660 Pope myth. Because of their unique legal status 00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:44.359 reporting directly to the Pope, they have often 00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.680 been called a church within a church, operating 00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:50.700 with a level of autonomy that makes outsiders 00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:54.400 and even other Catholic priests highly suspicious. 00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:58.900 Hmm. Well, and that weirdly makes sense with 00:26:58.900 --> 00:27:00.700 the amount of people who are Catholic within 00:27:00.700 --> 00:27:04.019 the Trump administration who say they know better 00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:08.059 than Pope Leo. like like they understand catholicism 00:27:08.059 --> 00:27:11.900 better than the pope which is like categorically 00:27:11.900 --> 00:27:15.839 as a catholic you can't think that because the 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:20.059 pope is literally god's voice on earth oh yeah 00:27:20.059 --> 00:27:23.519 no it's like not it's not necessarily outright 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:26.099 said but they constantly say how they disagree 00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:29.200 with how the pope views things which would make 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:31.619 sense if they kind of have their own like view 00:27:31.619 --> 00:27:35.559 of what the pope is or a separate pope yeah interesting 00:27:35.559 --> 00:27:38.519 and i don't think that that's like Something 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.640 I could imagine. I don't know, like, that much 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:44.180 about the Catholic Church. Like, I know about 00:27:44.180 --> 00:27:46.640 the asshole popes. Like, the important ones so 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.920 far. I'm sure there's going to be more that I'll 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:51.200 learn about asshole popes. Oh, there's some good 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:53.160 asshole popes out there that we'll cover. Oh, 00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:56.160 they probably don't like to be told that, like, 00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.799 Catholics don't agree with their views. Because 00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:02.119 they're, like, the almighty. Yeah. It also weirdly 00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:04.819 brings up, this is a weird topic, that, like, 00:28:04.819 --> 00:28:06.599 J .D. Vance was one of the last people to meet 00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:09.240 with Pope Francis. before he died. Interesting. 00:28:09.660 --> 00:28:12.779 There's an Opus Dei tie there as well. Yeah. 00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:16.920 I didn't even think of that. And here I thought 00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:20.599 it was just the black hole of his charisma that 00:28:20.599 --> 00:28:24.059 sucked into the last fleeting life force of the 00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:28.000 Pope. And then he dies. Anyhow, we got this tie 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:32.019 as well between Trump and Opus Dei. It's essentially 00:28:32.019 --> 00:28:35.380 transactional. Trump provided the political power 00:28:35.380 --> 00:28:38.039 to appoint conservative judges and enact specific 00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:40.680 policies, while the Opus Dei -linked intellectual 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.819 and legal network provided the dark money, the 00:28:43.819 --> 00:28:46.859 vetting process for judges, and ideological blueprint, 00:28:47.059 --> 00:28:50.839 like Project 2025, to run the government. So, 00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:54.759 that's the end of my Opus Dei episode. It's two 00:28:54.759 --> 00:29:00.180 episodes with Kuhl's notes. I can't do a 25 part 00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:03.680 or Opus Dei episode for you. I just can't. They 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.960 use influence. They use money. They have two 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:10.579 corrupt banks, at least so far. And apparently 00:29:10.579 --> 00:29:14.140 everybody's wages that they're just of the slaves 00:29:14.140 --> 00:29:17.180 that they own. So they have a lot of money and 00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:20.119 it's just crazy. And they just seem to be getting 00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:23.079 more powerful. They do because they're just getting 00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:25.750 more and more money. And then. This is where 00:29:25.750 --> 00:29:29.069 you see people with a lot of money then go to 00:29:29.069 --> 00:29:32.869 Washington, D .C., for example, and then they 00:29:32.869 --> 00:29:36.190 use their influence there to influence conservative 00:29:36.190 --> 00:29:39.640 politics because they have the money. They have 00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:42.339 the people and influence. And it's just crazy 00:29:42.339 --> 00:29:45.819 how kind of far it goes. And that's where I can 00:29:45.819 --> 00:29:47.480 see the connection. And how easily it moves. 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.880 Yeah. With secret societies because of like the 00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:54.339 tentacles that it reaches out. And it's not a 00:29:54.339 --> 00:29:58.759 good organization. And which is crazy that money 00:29:58.759 --> 00:30:01.380 has that much influence. It shouldn't have that 00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:04.440 much influence when it comes to politics. You 00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.259 see it all over the place. And it's just another 00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:09.819 tentacle. don't know why i'm thinking so much 00:30:09.819 --> 00:30:15.079 about tentacles right now but there's like tentacles 00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:17.920 all over the place tentacles of influence tentacles 00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:22.519 of money tentacles into politics um it's just 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:25.359 a tentacle it's just tentacles that's all the 00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:30.720 world really is yeah so that's opus day huh yeah 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:34.059 and tentacles Sadly, I don't think this will 00:30:34.059 --> 00:30:36.079 be the last time that we have to talk about them 00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:38.920 because I don't see their power waning in the 00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:42.559 near future. No, hopefully a little bit with 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:46.559 number nine, Leo. Yeah. Taking it away a little 00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:48.200 bit. No, that's with the church. I'm worried 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:50.619 more so that it's going to be a political movement 00:30:50.619 --> 00:30:53.180 in the States for a long time. Yeah, no. Yeah. 00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:55.440 I mean, the Pope's not going to take that away. 00:30:56.109 --> 00:30:58.930 Um, he's just not. So I guess we just kind of, 00:30:58.950 --> 00:31:01.950 this will likely sadly be an update in the future 00:31:01.950 --> 00:31:04.569 where we talk about how, remember that time where 00:31:04.569 --> 00:31:09.869 we weren't all ruled by Open Bay? Yep, that's 00:31:09.869 --> 00:31:12.849 where my mind went as well. Yeah. But I guess 00:31:12.849 --> 00:31:15.190 in the meantime, I have been Taylor, here with 00:31:15.190 --> 00:31:17.109 Chelsea. We are Journey to the Fringe. Thank 00:31:17.109 --> 00:31:18.470 you all for listening and we'll see you next 00:31:18.470 --> 00:31:23.339 week. Tentacles. Thank you for listening to Journey 00:31:23.339 --> 00:31:25.579 to the Fringe. If you have liked what you have 00:31:25.579 --> 00:31:29.460 listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or 00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:32.410 follow depending on what. venue you are listening 00:31:32.410 --> 00:31:35.170 to us through. Also, please, if possible, leave 00:31:35.170 --> 00:31:38.549 a five -star review as that really helps us in 00:31:38.549 --> 00:31:41.230 the algorithms. Should you wish to interact with 00:31:41.230 --> 00:31:43.630 us, please check us out on your social media 00:31:43.630 --> 00:31:46.730 of choice. I bet you we are there. And if you 00:31:46.730 --> 00:31:48.829 really want to communicate with us and give us 00:31:48.829 --> 00:31:51.349 ideas for new episodes or tell us that we're 00:31:51.349 --> 00:31:53.549 wrong and terrible, either way, please send us 00:31:53.549 --> 00:31:57.450 an email at journeytothefringe at gmail .com. 00:31:57.589 --> 00:31:59.430 For now, I'll see you in the next episode.