WEBVTT 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:06.419 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join 00:00:06.419 --> 00:00:15.339 us on a journey to the fringe. Hello and welcome 00:00:15.339 --> 00:00:18.579 to Journey to the Fringe, the only podcast where 00:00:18.579 --> 00:00:21.480 we are all about just eating pretzels and learning 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:28.300 about fringe stuff. Now, we are your hosts, Taylor 00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:31.589 and Chelsea. I'm here today. We're doing a Chelsea 00:00:31.589 --> 00:00:33.590 episode, so I get to eat the pretzels today. 00:00:33.810 --> 00:00:35.929 Honestly, I'm a little taken aback that they're 00:00:35.929 --> 00:00:39.009 not Cheezys. We know what Cheezys sound like, 00:00:39.009 --> 00:00:42.950 though. That's the problem. We really do. I can't 00:00:42.950 --> 00:00:45.130 remember what episode it is, but we know. We 00:00:45.130 --> 00:00:49.490 don't know, but we know about the Cheezys. Okay, 00:00:50.649 --> 00:00:52.570 well, I guess this is where I start talking. 00:00:53.369 --> 00:00:55.409 Taylor keeps chewing his pretzels. I'm busy. 00:00:57.310 --> 00:01:00.229 I have a fun episode today for you, Taylor, and 00:01:00.229 --> 00:01:02.810 everyone else that's listening, I guess, that 00:01:02.810 --> 00:01:05.689 I don't think you're going to be expecting. Can 00:01:05.689 --> 00:01:08.829 I take a guess? Yeah. Is it Friar Bernardi? No, 00:01:08.950 --> 00:01:11.069 that's a good idea for an episode. I want to 00:01:11.069 --> 00:01:12.590 know more about Friar Bernardi. I wonder what's 00:01:12.590 --> 00:01:15.250 happened to him. I am afraid because I haven't 00:01:15.250 --> 00:01:17.209 heard about him for a while. You don't think 00:01:17.209 --> 00:01:20.379 the AI got him, do you? I sure hope not. With 00:01:20.379 --> 00:01:22.439 the things coming out on AI right now, I'm a 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:25.540 little worried. I need to, didn't we come to 00:01:25.540 --> 00:01:27.659 a realization we were saying his name wrong? 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.079 Benanti. Yes, we did. But we only said it in 00:01:31.079 --> 00:01:35.000 text, so. I had other stuff written down to say, 00:01:35.060 --> 00:01:38.019 but it's not going to make sense anymore. Opus 00:01:38.019 --> 00:01:42.519 Dei, Latin for work of God. Is an organization. 00:01:43.299 --> 00:01:45.780 I know one of their most famous members as of 00:01:45.780 --> 00:01:49.859 right now, who's in the midst of war. Sorry, 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:55.379 what? JD Vance is an Opus Dei. He is? Yeah. I 00:01:55.379 --> 00:01:58.420 thought you meant personally. No, I don't know 00:01:58.420 --> 00:02:00.760 personally, but JD Vance is an Opus Dei member. 00:02:00.939 --> 00:02:05.069 Whatever makes sense. It's an organization within 00:02:05.069 --> 00:02:08.310 the Catholic Church that focuses on the idea 00:02:08.310 --> 00:02:11.770 that everyone, not just priests or nuns, can 00:02:11.770 --> 00:02:14.069 become a saint through their everyday life and 00:02:14.069 --> 00:02:18.710 work. You may be familiar with Opus Dei as of 00:02:18.710 --> 00:02:21.949 recent of... Oh no, I didn't write this down. 00:02:22.129 --> 00:02:24.030 That movie with Tom Hanks. Oh, it's the Da Vinci 00:02:24.030 --> 00:02:26.800 Code. Da Vinci Code, yes. Or they're kind of, 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:29.020 like, they're kind of radicals. Like, they self 00:02:29.020 --> 00:02:31.439 -flatulate, don't they? Self -flatulate. I'm 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:32.960 not familiar with that term. They whip themselves. 00:02:33.620 --> 00:02:36.000 They what? They whip themselves. Yes, they do. 00:02:36.139 --> 00:02:38.039 Whip themselves. Yeah. Isn't that what it's called? 00:02:38.180 --> 00:02:41.819 I don't think so. I would think that that would 00:02:41.819 --> 00:02:45.039 be, flatulating would be something else. No, 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:47.280 that is definitely just making yourself fart. 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:53.039 Okay. It's something really close to it, okay? 00:02:54.860 --> 00:03:00.699 I did enjoy that. Self -flagellation. Self -flagellation. 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.659 I'll never get over this. But I have to. I have 00:03:04.659 --> 00:03:10.990 an episode to do. Think of the history of Opus 00:03:10.990 --> 00:03:14.990 Dei like a startup that grew into a massive global 00:03:14.990 --> 00:03:18.210 corporation within the church, the Catholic Church, 00:03:18.370 --> 00:03:21.810 that is. It's a mix of a visionary leader, a 00:03:21.810 --> 00:03:24.389 brutal war, and a lot of high -level politics. 00:03:24.750 --> 00:03:27.849 I'm about to break down Opus Dei for you because 00:03:27.849 --> 00:03:31.409 this episode eventually is going to lead into 00:03:31.409 --> 00:03:33.729 another episode that you're going to need all 00:03:33.729 --> 00:03:36.780 this information for. It all starts... With a 00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:40.400 26 -year -old Spanish priest named Jose Maria 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:44.780 Escriva. October 2nd, 1928, while on a spiritual 00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:48.639 retreat, Escriva claimed he saw Opus Dei. He 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:50.819 described it as a divine message. Wait, wait. 00:03:51.099 --> 00:03:52.900 Okay, sorry. I thought we were supposed to know 00:03:52.900 --> 00:03:55.740 who Opus Dei was or what Opus Dei was at this 00:03:55.740 --> 00:03:57.300 point. But okay, you're going to tell us. Well, 00:03:57.300 --> 00:04:00.539 Opus Dei, like, he saw Opus Dei as the corporate, 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:03.259 like, not the corporation, but the, like, entity. 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:13.969 It's not like a person. Okay. It started with 00:04:13.969 --> 00:04:16.430 just a few students and young professionals in 00:04:16.430 --> 00:04:20.550 Madrid. In 1930, he realized women should be 00:04:20.550 --> 00:04:23.709 included too, creating a separate branch for 00:04:23.709 --> 00:04:26.949 them. That's not really including them, is it? 00:04:26.949 --> 00:04:31.410 No, it's not. And that segregation is still a 00:04:31.410 --> 00:04:33.490 part of Opus Dei today. We'll touch a little 00:04:33.490 --> 00:04:36.370 bit on it as well. Okay. So during the Spanish 00:04:36.370 --> 00:04:41.410 Civil War between 1936 and 1939, this is where 00:04:41.410 --> 00:04:45.149 the fringe and political theories usually start 00:04:45.149 --> 00:04:48.250 surrounding Opus Dei. During the war, the church 00:04:48.250 --> 00:04:52.129 was persecuted. Escriva had to go into hiding 00:04:52.129 --> 00:04:54.970 and eventually escaped across the Pyrenees Mountains. 00:04:55.470 --> 00:04:59.629 There's also a Franco... which was the dictator 00:04:59.629 --> 00:05:03.389 of Spain during that time. Yeah, fairly big piece 00:05:03.389 --> 00:05:06.269 of shit. Yep. If we're just gonna, yeah. After 00:05:06.269 --> 00:05:09.689 the war, Opus Dei grew rapidly under the dictatorship 00:05:09.689 --> 00:05:12.370 of Francisco Franco. Yeah, that makes sense. 00:05:12.870 --> 00:05:14.389 Dictatorship's kind of like they're cults that 00:05:14.389 --> 00:05:16.250 they can kind of control. Yeah, and it's the 00:05:16.250 --> 00:05:20.250 power as well. Several Opus Dei members became 00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:23.509 high -ranking ministers who helped fix Spain's 00:05:23.509 --> 00:05:26.550 economy. Critics say they were too close to a 00:05:26.550 --> 00:05:30.110 dictator. Opus Dei says those members were just 00:05:30.110 --> 00:05:33.959 acting as individual citizens. Of course. So, 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:37.500 after World War II, Escriva moved the headquarters 00:05:37.500 --> 00:05:40.060 to Rome to be closer to the Pope. So, it kind 00:05:40.060 --> 00:05:42.800 of gets its start in Spain. Huge in Spain. Wait, 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:44.579 how much closer are they going to move it to? 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:46.660 To Rome? Like, yeah. Yeah, just wait. I guess 00:05:46.660 --> 00:05:48.639 they're just moving it to Rome. Okay, okay. Sorry, 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:50.920 I just keep, I keep being like one step ahead. 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:52.779 I guess I should just wait. Stop doing that. 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:56.720 After World War II, Escriva moved the headquarters 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.699 to Rome to be closer to the Pope. He traveled 00:05:59.699 --> 00:06:02.899 all over Europe and the Americas to spread the 00:06:02.899 --> 00:06:07.060 work of Opus Dei. He publishes a book in 1999? 00:06:08.500 --> 00:06:12.220 No, that can't be right. That would be 60 years 00:06:12.220 --> 00:06:16.779 after its inception. Well, he'd only be 89. He 00:06:16.779 --> 00:06:18.939 could do it. It just wouldn't make a lot of sense 00:06:18.939 --> 00:06:22.939 to do it at that time. I actually have 999 is 00:06:22.939 --> 00:06:27.629 when it's published. So that's definitely not 00:06:27.629 --> 00:06:31.449 right. Let me just take a moment. So I always 00:06:31.449 --> 00:06:33.329 thought it was kind of something, it's definitely 00:06:33.329 --> 00:06:36.050 not part of the Catholic Church, but is Opus 00:06:36.050 --> 00:06:37.970 Dei really like one of the first sects to say 00:06:37.970 --> 00:06:40.250 like you don't have to go to church to be saintly? 00:06:40.310 --> 00:06:41.930 I don't know that actually. Because I always 00:06:41.930 --> 00:06:44.250 thought that like... This might just be, like, 00:06:44.329 --> 00:06:46.310 because we watched Stigmata growing up, where 00:06:46.310 --> 00:06:47.569 I was kind of, like, under the understanding 00:06:47.569 --> 00:06:49.370 that that's kind of just, like, the teachings 00:06:49.370 --> 00:06:53.029 of Jesus is, like, the church is kind of corrupt, 00:06:53.069 --> 00:06:55.870 so you should be able to be, like, holy on your 00:06:55.870 --> 00:06:58.569 own. That's so funny, because you said that, 00:06:58.629 --> 00:07:00.449 and then I was immediately going to reference 00:07:00.449 --> 00:07:04.149 Stigmata as well. Okay. I'm pretty sure it was 00:07:04.149 --> 00:07:05.209 the possessed girl in Stigmata. Very influential 00:07:05.209 --> 00:07:09.199 movie in our childhood. That's where like 90 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:12.199 % of my religion understanding comes from. And 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:14.540 we took like university level religious classes 00:07:14.540 --> 00:07:17.779 too. It's from the priest that possessed the 00:07:17.779 --> 00:07:21.339 girl in Stigmata. Okay, so he publishes the book 00:07:21.339 --> 00:07:26.420 in 1934, not 999 or 1999, which I tried to correct 00:07:26.420 --> 00:07:30.019 myself. So he, it's called The Way and it becomes 00:07:30.019 --> 00:07:33.579 a bestseller and is basically the handbook for 00:07:33.579 --> 00:07:36.060 members today. It's actually called The Camino, 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:38.560 which means The Way. Okay, that's really interesting 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:41.509 because like Chinese, like... tao teachings is 00:07:41.509 --> 00:07:43.930 also called the way oh so i wonder if it was 00:07:43.930 --> 00:07:46.689 influenced at all by that i also don't know that 00:07:46.689 --> 00:07:50.089 and that's yeah i didn't i could see like religious 00:07:50.089 --> 00:07:53.290 teachings being called the way yeah it makes 00:07:53.290 --> 00:07:55.089 the way you're supposed to do like everybody 00:07:55.089 --> 00:07:58.230 wants to know the way exactly iskriva died in 00:07:58.230 --> 00:08:02.889 1975 he was canonized I just have to let you 00:08:02.889 --> 00:08:05.149 know. Involves no cannons, yes. Made a saint. 00:08:05.250 --> 00:08:09.069 He was not shot out of a cannon like I think 00:08:09.069 --> 00:08:12.610 every time that I hear canonized. Which is more 00:08:12.610 --> 00:08:15.889 often than you would think. By Pope John Paul 00:08:15.889 --> 00:08:21.269 II in 2002. One of the fastest paths to sainthood 00:08:21.269 --> 00:08:23.829 in history. Three years after he published his 00:08:23.829 --> 00:08:27.930 book in 1934. Yeah, he died. Never mind. It's 00:08:27.930 --> 00:08:31.750 a bad joke. It's a bad joke. Oh, okay. I'm confused. 00:08:32.169 --> 00:08:35.009 Anyhow, maybe I'll get it when I edit. One of 00:08:35.009 --> 00:08:38.129 the fastest, fastest sainthood in history, which 00:08:38.129 --> 00:08:41.820 was quite controversial at the time. Moving on 00:08:41.820 --> 00:08:44.960 to the golden age of Opus Dei under John Paul 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:49.379 II, 1982, Pope John Paul II was a huge fan of 00:08:49.379 --> 00:08:53.240 Opus Dei's conservative energy. In 1982, he gave 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:56.480 them personal prelature status, which made them 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:59.299 essentially untouchable by local bishops and 00:08:59.299 --> 00:09:02.600 gave them a direct line to the Vatican. I guess 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:04.019 they do have a problem, actually, with bishops 00:09:04.019 --> 00:09:05.860 touching people. Yeah, they do. Huge problem. 00:09:05.860 --> 00:09:08.980 They had a few lawsuits about that. Finally, 00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:12.259 moving forward from 2022 to the present day, 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:19.220 Pope Francis and now Pope Leo VII? It's a high 00:09:19.220 --> 00:09:22.929 number. I remember that. IX? The IX? I think 00:09:22.929 --> 00:09:24.509 he's ninth, you're right. I think that's what 00:09:24.509 --> 00:09:28.669 that Roman numeral is. Five minus one plus five, 00:09:28.950 --> 00:09:31.769 nine. I've been rolling back some of that special 00:09:31.769 --> 00:09:34.730 power. They're trying to move Opus Dei away from 00:09:34.730 --> 00:09:38.450 being a mini hierarchy and back towards its original 00:09:38.450 --> 00:09:41.309 roots as a group for lay people. The history 00:09:41.309 --> 00:09:44.990 of Opus Dei is a story of perceived power versus 00:09:44.990 --> 00:09:48.480 actual mission. Well, not just perceived, I guess, 00:09:48.500 --> 00:09:50.919 because of the power that was invested in them 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:54.379 by the Almighty Catholic Church. On one hand, 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:57.120 you have a saint who wanted to help people pray 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:00.419 while doing the dishes. On the other, you have 00:10:00.419 --> 00:10:03.480 a group that rose to power under a Spanish dictator 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.220 and gained unprecedented legal independence within 00:10:07.220 --> 00:10:09.840 the Vatican. That already seems pretty evil. 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:13.879 The big idea with Opus Dei is the universal call 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:17.659 to holiness, to find God in the middle of ordinary 00:10:17.659 --> 00:10:20.279 things like your job, family, and social life. 00:10:20.750 --> 00:10:24.250 Members follow a plan of life that includes daily 00:10:24.250 --> 00:10:27.549 mass, praying the rosary, reading spiritual books, 00:10:27.629 --> 00:10:31.549 and mental prayer, or quiet conversations with 00:10:31.549 --> 00:10:34.389 God, I guess is what they also call it. Some 00:10:34.389 --> 00:10:38.850 members practice corporal mortification, small 00:10:38.850 --> 00:10:41.629 physical sacrifices to join in the suffering 00:10:41.629 --> 00:10:44.970 of Christ, as Taylor was talking about with the 00:10:44.970 --> 00:10:48.480 self -isolation. Sometimes they just toot. This 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:52.039 ranges from simple things like giving up a snack 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:57.519 to more intense practices like wearing a sillus. 00:10:57.639 --> 00:10:59.360 Is that how you would say that? I don't know. 00:10:59.500 --> 00:11:01.580 I don't know. I don't know what that is. A small 00:11:01.580 --> 00:11:04.500 spike chain around your thigh. Okay. But that's 00:11:04.500 --> 00:11:06.440 interesting that it's like fully your choice 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:10.139 if you want to. Yeah. I guess so. Probably for 00:11:10.139 --> 00:11:14.960 the... Because it says, like... From what I understand 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:17.500 of it, probably when you're towards the top of 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:21.179 the hierarchy, it's probably more... So, you're 00:11:21.179 --> 00:11:23.399 saying J .D. Vance probably doesn't have a Silas, 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:27.200 like, under his, like, his suit as a garter belt. 00:11:27.419 --> 00:11:29.779 Yeah, I mean... Per se. He looks like he might. 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:33.840 Yeah. Honestly. And also, I do have to wonder, 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:35.759 because you always get this with cults, where 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:37.720 it's like, oh no, you don't have to do these 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:40.379 things. Kind of like with Shen Yun. What's the 00:11:40.379 --> 00:11:42.740 name of that group? Where they're like, oh yeah, 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:44.620 no, don't worry, you can get medical attention. 00:11:44.740 --> 00:11:46.419 It's just like, that means you're not in tune 00:11:46.419 --> 00:11:49.120 with God, because you can't get sick if you're 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:50.399 with God. Yeah, exactly. That was the point that 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:52.519 I was trying to make. Probably at the higher 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.940 levels, it's more of a thing they look at as 00:11:55.940 --> 00:11:58.600 an expectation that you're doing. So speaking 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:02.279 of the hierarchy, there are about 95 ,000 members 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.519 worldwide organized into different levels based 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:09.139 on their lifestyle. So we have the supernumeraries. 00:12:09.179 --> 00:12:14.039 These are married, 70 % of the members, and they 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:17.759 live normal family lives, contribute financially 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:20.960 and follow the daily prayer plan. This is probably 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:22.379 where you're going to see the people who have 00:12:22.379 --> 00:12:25.259 a choice about the sacrifices that they're making. 00:12:25.769 --> 00:12:28.110 And you're probably going to see a wide variety 00:12:28.110 --> 00:12:30.649 there. And of course, you're probably going to 00:12:30.649 --> 00:12:32.730 have the people that take it more seriously than 00:12:32.730 --> 00:12:36.230 others. Then you have the numeraries. These are 00:12:36.230 --> 00:12:39.570 celibate. These are 20 % of the members. And 00:12:39.570 --> 00:12:43.389 they live in gender segregated, opus gay centers. 00:12:43.470 --> 00:12:46.309 And they hold regular jobs, but give their full 00:12:46.309 --> 00:12:50.279 salary to the work. Okay, two things that I'm 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.960 curious about. So it's gender segregated. So 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:55.820 is it now that women can join Opus Dei? Or are 00:12:55.820 --> 00:12:57.200 they saying like, no, they don't even come into 00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.759 contact with women in this area? I believe that 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:02.899 we will get into it. I don't know that they would 00:13:02.899 --> 00:13:06.080 make it this far up. It's probably something 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:10.120 more like help, so to say. Oh, yeah. So like 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:12.419 they can't have like female maids cleaning the 00:13:12.419 --> 00:13:15.059 place. Yes, is what I would assume. Okay, and 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:17.500 then second thing in there, which you also probably 00:13:17.500 --> 00:13:19.799 don't have an answer for, but that's okay. I 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:22.039 just want to know for sure. You're saying these 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:26.039 guys are celibate. Is it like they can choose 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:27.960 at a certain point they're going to be celibate? 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:30.899 Or are they like, they have to have been like 00:13:30.899 --> 00:13:34.919 virgins to join it? For this hierarchy, it just 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:38.200 says celibate. So I would assume, I mean, to 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:41.240 be at this level, you would have to be. I don't 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:44.279 know about... whether or not it says anything 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:46.940 beforehand yeah okay yeah i wouldn't know but 00:13:46.940 --> 00:13:51.580 i'm curious on this one and maybe because they're 00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:54.759 all about power so i don't know and i don't know 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:57.019 enough about opus day i've watched a few things 00:13:57.019 --> 00:13:59.600 but it never came up like if there was a woman 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:03.620 of power that was in opus day i'm sure that she 00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:08.299 could make it up to this numerary level see I 00:14:08.299 --> 00:14:09.940 don't think she could, because then she'd have 00:14:09.940 --> 00:14:12.740 to live in the gender -segregated area, and I 00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:14.820 don't think they would have female gender -segregated 00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:16.519 areas, because it doesn't seem that they cater 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:19.360 towards women. Well, I mean, they would have 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.000 them gender -segregated, because, I mean, they're 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.720 segregated away from other people, right? That 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.179 would imply that there's other genders, right? 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:30.220 That would imply that there's... No, it doesn't 00:14:30.220 --> 00:14:32.620 imply that there's both. It just implies that 00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:34.720 one gender does not come into contact with the 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:36.940 other. It doesn't... necessarily say that they 00:14:36.940 --> 00:14:39.220 accommodate both well let's read on and find 00:14:39.220 --> 00:14:41.419 out what i have in here okay we'll all find out 00:14:41.419 --> 00:14:44.620 together so then the next level we have is the 00:14:44.620 --> 00:14:48.500 actually just back on this one they did control 00:14:48.500 --> 00:14:52.159 as far as giving their full salary a lot of stuff 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:55.480 is tracked if you're taking the bus what the 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:58.360 money that you're spending stuff on at this level 00:14:58.360 --> 00:14:59.799 makes sense yeah because you're going to need 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:02.779 some money to do things but it's very high everything 00:15:02.779 --> 00:15:04.940 else needs to go to them yeah Like your party 00:15:04.940 --> 00:15:07.980 habit or your cocaine habit. Yeah, exactly. You 00:15:07.980 --> 00:15:12.720 can only have so much cocaine per week. So the 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:15.320 next level is the associates, and they're also 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:19.480 celibate. Same spiritual commitment as the numeraries, 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:22.480 but they live with their families or independently. 00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:25.700 Interesting they say family, not celibate. I 00:15:25.700 --> 00:15:28.460 wonder if that means mom in her basement. That's 00:15:28.460 --> 00:15:32.990 true. And she's... A corpse upstairs in the rocking 00:15:32.990 --> 00:15:38.309 chair. Perhaps. Next level is the numerary assistants. 00:15:38.830 --> 00:15:42.370 These are celibate women. Oh, okay, okay. Yep. 00:15:42.789 --> 00:15:45.529 Dedicated full -time to the domestic care. I 00:15:45.529 --> 00:15:47.950 knew it. Domestic care, cooking, cleaning of 00:15:47.950 --> 00:15:50.269 Opus Dei centers. Well, yeah, they're celibate 00:15:50.269 --> 00:15:52.789 men. They aren't great at many things. Interesting. 00:15:52.850 --> 00:15:55.649 They have to be celibate, the women. Okay, so 00:15:55.649 --> 00:15:58.379 then we have the priests. the ordained clergy 00:15:58.379 --> 00:16:01.539 that's about two percent of the members and they 00:16:01.539 --> 00:16:04.720 provide spiritual guidance and sacraments to 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.539 the group if you walk into a normal catholic 00:16:07.539 --> 00:16:10.820 mass you see families from the neighborhood if 00:16:10.820 --> 00:16:14.100 you walk into an opus day center you're gonna 00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:16.919 see the men and women are segregated and usually 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:20.320 have separate activities the focus is intensely 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:23.740 on professional excellence being the best lawyer 00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:27.159 doctor artist that you can be for god because 00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:30.740 they don't have a public church building on every 00:16:30.740 --> 00:16:33.460 corner. They can seem invisible until you're 00:16:33.460 --> 00:16:37.000 in the know. So the whole gist is they are like 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:40.139 a specialized task force within the church. They 00:16:40.139 --> 00:16:42.700 follow the same commander -in -chief, the Pope. 00:16:42.820 --> 00:16:46.240 They are Catholic, but they have their own uniform, 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.500 their own training manual, and they don't report 00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:52.679 to the local precinct or local bishop for most 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:56.019 things. That's just briefly the setup for what 00:16:56.019 --> 00:16:58.440 I really want to get in this episode, what you 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:02.000 need to know about Opus Dei. So you may be thinking, 00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:04.920 where am I going with it? I'm not just preaching 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.420 to you the history of Opus Dei for no reason. 00:17:07.539 --> 00:17:10.279 I'm going to take you partially there with why 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.220 it's controversial, Opus Dei that is. It's a 00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:17.519 slow burn in this episode. Opus Dei is often 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:20.279 called the most controversial group in the church. 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:24.099 It's been criticized for secrecy, Critics claim 00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:26.759 it operates like a secret society with hidden 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:29.519 agendas and influence and high level politics 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.180 and business. Which, I mean, the Da Vinci Code 00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:35.680 really helped it with that. With its secrecy? 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:40.480 Yeah. Not its own secrecy, but it kind of put 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.180 in all these ideas about Opus Dei as a secret 00:17:44.180 --> 00:17:47.160 society, like out there into the... Yeah, well, 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.400 and it makes it so easy to make it whatever you 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.460 want and like a secret society in your movie. 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:55.019 The fact that nobody really knows about it. Yeah. 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:58.440 Former members have alleged cult -like recruitment 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:02.279 tactics, especially targeting young people. I 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:06.359 was watching a movie, not a movie, like a documentary 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:10.279 about it. This girl who had joined, she was recruited 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:13.700 in a youth group and they would kind of test 00:18:13.700 --> 00:18:16.539 the waters as to whether you were open or curious 00:18:16.539 --> 00:18:19.119 about it. And then they would kind of leap on 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:21.859 you if you were curious about it. And then they 00:18:21.859 --> 00:18:25.289 would go out into the community. and do all these 00:18:25.289 --> 00:18:30.150 different sewing classes and book clubs just 00:18:30.150 --> 00:18:32.450 to recruit people. Man, why do they have to turn 00:18:32.450 --> 00:18:35.269 everything that could be a community into a cult? 00:18:35.289 --> 00:18:38.450 So creepy. The commons are really gone at this 00:18:38.450 --> 00:18:43.230 point. Nothing but cults out there. Some people 00:18:43.230 --> 00:18:46.410 report that directors monitor members' mail, 00:18:46.549 --> 00:18:49.910 restrict who they can talk to, and demand extreme 00:18:49.910 --> 00:18:53.690 obedience. Because Opus Dei is a personal prelature, 00:18:53.930 --> 00:18:57.250 which is a unique legal structure, its leader 00:18:57.250 --> 00:19:00.549 reports directly to the Pope, essentially bypassing 00:19:00.549 --> 00:19:03.650 local bishops. Question. Yeah. Do we get into 00:19:03.650 --> 00:19:07.809 who the leader is or no? Um, no, I don't think 00:19:07.809 --> 00:19:10.269 so. Okay. I was just curious because you're talking 00:19:10.269 --> 00:19:12.529 about him being like very powerful, but I would 00:19:12.529 --> 00:19:15.309 be curious how often they change hands and if 00:19:15.309 --> 00:19:17.329 it's like appointed by the Pope or they do like 00:19:17.329 --> 00:19:20.579 a thing like the Pope. when they're appointing 00:19:20.579 --> 00:19:22.869 their leader or if it's just like a succession 00:19:22.869 --> 00:19:25.150 type thing where it's just like, yeah, last guy 00:19:25.150 --> 00:19:28.349 picks it. Well, that's a good question because 00:19:28.349 --> 00:19:31.789 Escriva was the leader of Opus Dei. Well, that's 00:19:31.789 --> 00:19:34.089 what I think, but he's dead. Yeah. Yeah. And 00:19:34.089 --> 00:19:36.029 like, I wonder if he gave it up willingly or 00:19:36.029 --> 00:19:37.869 if it's like they voted him out at a board of 00:19:37.869 --> 00:19:39.769 directors meeting or something like that. Yeah. 00:19:39.849 --> 00:19:42.589 I don't know who's Fernando. Or if he was even 00:19:42.589 --> 00:19:44.910 ever the leader, like there's a chance that he 00:19:44.910 --> 00:19:46.730 created it. And then like somebody took it over 00:19:46.730 --> 00:19:48.490 from there pretty quickly because he didn't have 00:19:48.490 --> 00:19:51.920 the right mindset for a cult. Honestly, this 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:54.380 is what you know to get into what I'm going to 00:19:54.380 --> 00:19:58.099 get into because I knew the episode that I was 00:19:58.099 --> 00:20:00.019 going to do, but you kind of need to know a little 00:20:00.019 --> 00:20:03.259 bit about Opus Dei to go into it. So it wasn't 00:20:03.259 --> 00:20:06.900 like a full breakdown of Opus Dei. I didn't know. 00:20:07.059 --> 00:20:09.839 It's the Cole's notes. Gotcha. I didn't know. 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:14.220 Like, this is boring stuff, actually. I needed 00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:16.980 to understand first Opus Dei to go where this 00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:21.809 is going. So there's no like how. Do the elections 00:20:21.809 --> 00:20:24.869 work? I doubt there is an election. I don't know. 00:20:25.170 --> 00:20:29.910 But it's a good question for you all to look 00:20:29.910 --> 00:20:32.309 into. For somebody to email us about. Yeah. Because 00:20:32.309 --> 00:20:33.750 we're always waiting for you guys to do that. 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:40.279 Because Opus Dei, yeah, prelature, bypassing 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:43.160 local bishops, this independence combined with 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:46.599 its focus on influential professionals has cemented 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:49.019 its reputation in pop culture like the Da Vinci 00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:53.720 Code as a powerful shadow -cloaked entity. So, 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.000 I'm going to do something a little bit different 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.079 in this episode, and I'm going to give you something 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.940 to look forward to next week. Here's what you've 00:21:00.940 --> 00:21:03.279 been waiting for. Things are about to get... 00:21:03.789 --> 00:21:07.029 This is where I wanted to go with this episode 00:21:07.029 --> 00:21:10.039 and why you needed to know about Opus Dei. Opus 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.539 Dei is so private and has such high level connections, 00:21:13.779 --> 00:21:17.160 they have become a magnet for some of the wildest 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:20.559 and darkest conspiracy theories in modern history. 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.680 Now, where you're thinking this is going to go, 00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:26.680 it's not. This is not about a secret society 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.839 and conspiracy theories. This episode is now 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:33.400 partially because I'm only going to get into 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:35.480 a few on this episode and then I'm going to leave 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.660 you hanging until the next episode next week. 00:21:38.029 --> 00:21:41.630 This is about the biggest real -life controversies 00:21:41.630 --> 00:21:44.710 connected to Opus Dei going on in the world. 00:21:44.829 --> 00:21:48.170 To start with, we have the God's banker mystery, 00:21:48.470 --> 00:21:53.910 Banco Ambrosiano. In 1982, an Italian banker 00:21:53.910 --> 00:21:58.089 named Roberto Calvi was found hanging under Blackfriars 00:21:58.089 --> 00:22:01.109 Bridge in London with bricks in his pocket and 00:22:01.109 --> 00:22:05.720 $15 ,000 in cash. Calvi was the head of Banco 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:09.740 Ambrosiano, which had a huge black hole in its 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:12.819 finances. It was discovered the Vatican Bank 00:22:12.819 --> 00:22:17.579 was a major shareholder in this bank. Some theorists 00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:21.180 and Calvi's own family claimed Opus Dei was trying 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:24.039 to buy its way into becoming the Vatican's new 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:26.980 official bank by bailing out the debt. Rumors 00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:29.579 swirled that Calvi was killed because he knew 00:22:29.579 --> 00:22:32.569 too much about where the money was going. Opus 00:22:32.569 --> 00:22:35.410 Dei has always flatly denied any involvement, 00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:39.269 but the murder -suicide debate is still a staple 00:22:39.269 --> 00:22:42.029 of true crime in fringe circles. What? It's always 00:22:42.029 --> 00:22:43.950 awkward when you gotta make comment on a weird 00:22:43.950 --> 00:22:49.259 death. Yeah. So I actually have heard about that 00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:51.980 one before. I have too, yeah. Yeah, that one's 00:22:51.980 --> 00:22:55.420 fairly famous. Oh yeah, huge. Like it's one of 00:22:55.420 --> 00:22:57.420 those ones that you point at for like Vatican 00:22:57.420 --> 00:23:00.319 corruption. Yes. Common. And again, that's the 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:02.619 coolest notes of that. Just because we're just 00:23:02.619 --> 00:23:05.579 going to briefly touch on some of these connections 00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:09.180 to Opus Dei in this. A more recent conspiracy 00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:12.720 -turned -investigation involves Spain's Banco 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:16.519 Popular. Yes, another bank. For weird reasons. 00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:21.079 Journalist Gareth Gore, who just released a massive 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:24.920 book on this just in this last year, 2024 -2025, 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:29.380 titled Opus, The Cult of Dark Money, Human Trafficking, 00:23:29.380 --> 00:23:32.240 and Right -Wing Conspiracy Inside the Catholic 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.900 Church. argues that Opus Dei didn't just have 00:23:35.900 --> 00:23:39.000 members in the bank, they hijacked it. It's a 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:42.259 massive investigative expose that treats Opus 00:23:42.259 --> 00:23:44.720 Dei more like a corporate political machine than 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.859 a purely religious organization. Gore details 00:23:47.859 --> 00:23:51.079 how billions of dollars were siphoned from Banco 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:54.859 Popular to fund Opus Dei's expansion. He describes 00:23:54.859 --> 00:23:58.180 a brazen case of corporate pillaging where men 00:23:58.180 --> 00:24:01.319 sworn to poverty and celibacy manipulated one 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:03.759 of the world's largest banks to build a global 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.259 real estate and power empire. Oh, I thought you 00:24:06.259 --> 00:24:08.099 were going to say for sex parties. That would 00:24:08.099 --> 00:24:11.559 have made the truest answer. Wow, that would 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.980 just come full circle. Gore tracks the flow of 00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:17.619 money from one of Spain's largest bank collapses 00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:21.240 directly into Opus Dei's coffers? Yeah, bank 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:23.700 accounts, basically. Oh, okay. I'm glad you knew 00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:27.119 that. He also draws a direct line between the 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.079 Catholic Information Center in D .C., which is 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:32.980 an Opus Dei hub, and the Architects of Project 00:24:32.980 --> 00:24:37.200 2025. To summarize, the theory is that they use 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.400 the bank as a personal ATM to fund their global 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.839 expansion and build massive of luxurious shrines 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:47.140 using a web of shell companies to hide the paper 00:24:47.140 --> 00:24:50.220 trail. And that is where I'm going to leave it 00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:53.000 for this week. And we're going to pick back up 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:56.880 next week and finish off probably just like a 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.880 brief summary of the controversies that are kind 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.960 of surrounding Opus Dei. I got some good ones 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:06.319 for you. What do you think so far? What do you 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.740 know of Opus Dei? Other than J .D. Vance. It 00:25:09.740 --> 00:25:12.359 actually, weirdly, when you were talking about 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:14.400 it, it reminded me that, have you ever listened 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.000 to the Majority Report? It's a very prominent 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:20.019 left -wing news source on YouTube and podcasts. 00:25:20.259 --> 00:25:21.940 I don't know that I have. I've sent you a few 00:25:21.940 --> 00:25:25.109 links before. It's Sam Seder. They had an interview 00:25:25.109 --> 00:25:27.309 about a year ago talking specifically about the 00:25:27.309 --> 00:25:29.930 Opus Dei for about an hour. And did you learn 00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:32.089 anything? I learned a bit. That's where I remember 00:25:32.089 --> 00:25:34.690 that J .D. Vance's Opus Dei. Right. And there's 00:25:34.690 --> 00:25:36.569 more in there, but I think it's going to be like, 00:25:36.650 --> 00:25:39.170 oh yeah, as we get going with it, as opposed 00:25:39.170 --> 00:25:41.450 to me being able to spout facts about it. Okay. 00:25:41.490 --> 00:25:43.750 I was just wondering where you were on it. I 00:25:43.750 --> 00:25:46.470 went into this. I did know. I did know that they 00:25:46.470 --> 00:25:50.369 have a really big Washington, D .C. sect. Like, 00:25:50.369 --> 00:25:52.529 it's actually very weird how much they're involved 00:25:52.529 --> 00:25:55.990 in U .S. politics. Yeah, we are going to talk 00:25:55.990 --> 00:26:00.190 about that. And it's like, when you think Opus 00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:04.710 Dei, think people in power. I really found that 00:26:04.710 --> 00:26:07.049 that one statement that I made in the episode 00:26:07.049 --> 00:26:10.970 that they want to be the best lawyer, architect, 00:26:11.309 --> 00:26:14.750 whatever. And they want to be, they want to. 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.779 either know that person in power or they want 00:26:17.779 --> 00:26:21.039 to be that person in power. I don't think they 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:24.220 want to be the best. I think they want the power 00:26:24.220 --> 00:26:27.579 of being the best and most connected. Yeah, no, 00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:30.079 that's true. Yeah, it's weirdly like there's 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.759 been a weird movement in the U .S. with Tradcaths, 00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:35.859 traditional Catholic living, which has kind of 00:26:35.859 --> 00:26:38.420 hijacked some of the younger population in the 00:26:38.420 --> 00:26:41.440 U .S. to move to Catholicism and by extension 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.849 to Opus Dei. Interesting. So, yeah, it's finding 00:26:44.849 --> 00:26:47.029 a weird resurgence in the U .S. with younger 00:26:47.029 --> 00:26:50.150 people. I find that weird. I haven't heard about 00:26:50.150 --> 00:26:54.019 that. Young men. And young men, eh? Yeah, just 00:26:54.019 --> 00:26:57.539 they have really cult -like tactics for recruitment. 00:26:57.700 --> 00:26:59.779 And we're going to see some other concerning 00:26:59.779 --> 00:27:03.539 things going on. But yeah, I mean, I went into 00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:06.099 this not knowing a whole lot about Opus Dei. 00:27:06.140 --> 00:27:08.480 I didn't know if it was a cult. I didn't know 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:12.200 if it was a secret society. It kind of does operate. 00:27:12.339 --> 00:27:15.079 I mean, it's not operating as a secret society, 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:20.480 I guess. But I could see how it... I can see 00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:24.119 how it's positioned itself that way, kind of. 00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:27.960 It's kind of working behind the scenes, but within 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:31.480 positions of power. So I was a little bit shocked 00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:34.019 to see that it's not really much of anything, 00:27:34.259 --> 00:27:37.319 kind of. But it's also all -powerful in the right 00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:41.099 hand of Pope Leo, yeah. Yeah, right? I was surprised 00:27:41.099 --> 00:27:44.799 at how little, like, it's not a religion. It's 00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:47.839 like a sect, kind of, of a religion. I don't 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:49.880 know, that was... kind of confusing to me yeah 00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:52.400 it's not its own cult like it's a cult within 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.940 a cult yeah exactly that's exactly how i would 00:27:55.940 --> 00:27:59.420 describe it but yeah i think i got a good episode 00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:01.839 for you next week so you better come back that 00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:04.400 is yeah i think and i don't think there'll be 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:06.319 any pretzels mostly because i'm out of pretzels 00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:10.920 at this point so if that entices you back anyhow 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:13.720 i have been taylor here with chelsea we are journey 00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:15.160 to the fringe thank you all for listening we'll 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:18.500 see you next week Thank you for listening to 00:28:18.500 --> 00:28:20.880 Journey to the Fringe. If you have liked what 00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:24.500 you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, 00:28:24.700 --> 00:28:28.019 or follow depending on what venue you are listening 00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:30.779 to us through. Also, please, if possible, leave 00:28:30.779 --> 00:28:34.160 a five -star review as that really helps us in 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:36.839 the algorithms. Should you wish to interact with 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.180 us, please check us out on your social media 00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:42.319 of choice. I bet you we are there. And if you 00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:44.440 really want to communicate with us and give us 00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:46.920 ideas for new episodes or tell us, that were 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:49.140 wrong and terrible. Either way, please send us 00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:53.059 an email at journeytothefringe at gmail .com. 00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:55.059 For now, I'll see you in the next episode.