Okay, Chelsea, I am going to, because I don't
want to do the same thing two weeks in a row.
Okay. I'm going to give you a vague idea or a
general topic. Oh, a choice. Yes. So we can talk
about ancient history. We can talk about genetics.
We can talk about a, what is this? You know,
I'm just getting rid of this one. It looks too
complicated. We can talk about the Moonies, which
we can't because we've done that one. Okay. We
can talk about aliens. Ah, this is a test for
us. Or we can talk about space junk. Genetics.
Okay. This one is from Live Live Science. We
will never. We defy learning what the actual
correct way to say it. Yeah. Great source. No
idea how to say it. Refuse to learn. How do you
find out? Who's to say? Anyhow, written on September
18th, 2025 by Kamal Nahas. Article title, tiny
brains grown in lab could become conscious and
feel pain. And we are not ready. No, I'm not
ready for this episode even. Uh -oh. So, scientists
are getting closer to growing human brains in
labs. And it's spurring an ethical debate over
the welfare of these lab -reared tissues. The
debate surrounds brain organoids, which are sometimes
mistaken for sci -fi -inspired brains in boxes.
I think we're going to learn. However, they appear
to be a small assembly of brain tissues, because
that's what they say. grown from stem cells are
too simple to function like a real human brain.
As such, scientists have assumed brain organoids
lack consciousness, which has led to lax research
regulations. Some scientists, however, take a
different view. Yeah. Quote, we feel that in
the fear of hype and science fiction inspired
exaggeration, the pendulum has swung too far
in the opposite direction. End quote. Christopher
Wood, a bioethics researcher at Zhejiang University
in China, told Live Science in an email. In a
prospective piece published September 12th in
the journal Patterns, Wood and his colleagues
argued that technological advances may soon lead
to the creation of conscious organoids. The authors
say regulations regarding the use of organoids
should be reviewed. It would be unethical for
a conscious organoid to experience its own thoughts
and interests or to feel pain, said Boyd Lomax,
a neuroscientist at Johns Hopkins University.
But reigning in consciousness may not be straightforward.
The stem cells used to make organoids grow side
by side and lack complex organization when they're
cultured on a 2D surface like a dish. But when
they're grown in a solid gel or a spinning bioreactor
that keeps the cells aloft, they adopt 3D anatomical
networks that resemble what's seen in an embryonic
brain. Although they develop 3D features, brain
organoids are too simple to be conscious some
neuroscientists argue consciousness in a brain
arises when different regions of the organ communicate
but organoids resemble only a single part of
the brain and none of these lab -grown mini brains
are larger than 0 .16 inches or four millimeters
in diameter suggesting important faculties of
consciousness are missing. People often think
of consciousness in humans or animals as a state
of being aware of oneself. However, quote, we
think of consciousness in organoids as a basic
level of sensation, the capacity to feel pain
and pleasure, end quote, said Andrea Lavazza,
a moral philosopher and neuroethicist at Pegaso
University in Italy. Most neuroscientists define
consciousness as self -awareness or the ability
to feel or experience something. Alison Muotri,
a neuroscientist at the University of California,
San Diego, told Live Science in an email. But
there is no universal agreed -upon definition,
she said. He said. Wow. Alison is a he. Sorry,
plot twist in that one. Or typo. Who knows? Some
definitions of consciousness focus on the brain's
ability to process and respond to its environment
through senses like sight and hearing. Brain
organoids are cultured outside of a body and
cannot receive such signals, Lavazza noted. But
in the future, more advanced organoids could
still theoretically experience pain. In humans,
membranes that envelop the brain, called meninges,
which I think is where we take meningitis from,
contains neurons that can send pain signals to
the organs. the worry is that the same could
be possible in more sophisticated organoids on
the flip side Boyd argued that, quote, if an
organoid has the internal neural architecture
necessary for representing pain, then no external
signal would be required, end quote. So there
need not be a pain signal from a neuron for pain
to occur. This is how phantom pain arises in
people who have lost limbs. That makes a lot
of sense. Wood noted, however, that it's unclear
whether an organoid could experience something
tantamount to phantom pain, as this might depend
on having a memory of the lost limb. So in words,
it's complicated. wow this actually goes on for
quite some time so i'm going to link the article
to yeah so you can read more but i think that
gives enough i have so many thoughts on this
this is such an interesting philosophical article
i think number one my first comment i think is
just something that while you were talking i
think gave me pause, which was it. Was it my
having to reread things? Yes. It was that Allison
was a heap. No, it was that. What was it that
you said that just merely by having a brain and
being able to feel pleasure and pain. gives you
a what was it a sense of self a sense of consciousness
consciousness now to me there are living things
that could experience pain that i don't think
that people would necessarily think would have
a consciousness being parts of like the the reefs
and um stuff like that they still experience
consciousness they just they exist they wouldn't
have a sense of self yes But that doesn't mean
they aren't conscious, yes. Exactly. And which
also would bring up the fact of people who argue,
and this was something as a part of a philosophy
class that I took, at which point would you consider,
and it was not just a regular philosophy class.
it was i can't remember what exactly it was the
argument was abortion right or wrong and a part
of the and i think it's equally important in
what we're talking about right now at what point
do you feel a fetus would gain consciousness
would gain a soul and what makes that right or
wrong at what point and what the argument would
be at what point do you think this thing gets
a soul and what is the meaning of a soul behind
something like that. And I think it's a very
relevant argument towards what we're talking
about right now. I weirdly got that theme from
this too. And it's almost like that ethically
has to be talked about at the same time. Yes.
But I didn't want to talk about it weirdly enough.
Everybody knows the soul happens at the quickening.
The bad religion covered it well in their song,
The Quickening. Just go listen to that and you'll
understand. But as weird as it seems, I think
it's pulling similar ties to it. Yeah. With something
that we're creating that isn't human, but could
potentially be. How do you measure that? One
thing that bothered me that's left out from that
article, why are they growing these? Yes. Which
gave me, and that was another point of mine,
why are they growing things and what the hell
are they doing with them? I mean, my theory,
Chelsea, just throwing it out there, it turns
out reincarnation is the correct religious view
and they're just creating hell because these
things they're clearly ethically arguing can
only feel pain. You know what? There's something
that leaves me very disturbed about the article
as well, which is my third point. Which maybe
gets covered in the last third of the article,
which we could have read at this point. There's
so many points I want to make. This is only the
third. This is a big article. What the fuck are
they doing? There's so many implications. There's
so many implications. Too many to have for a
minute. And I didn't know they were growing these.
Like I've always kind of considered like human
brains kind of off limits for rowing in a vat.
No, there's nothing off limits for rowing in
a vat these days. And I think before it goes
too far. Not with the deregulation that we're
living through these days. That's true. And what
with the souls, the administration probably needs
to collect in order to distract from the Epstein
files. No. maybe the Epstein files are just the
friends we made along the way. And also these
little things in bats, because they're clearly
not 18. I think there's too much to this to comprehend.
And that's probably where the mini should end.
Yeah. And I mean, I think therefore I am, I almost
feel like this is exactly what he was talking
about with the brain. Probably. I would say yes.
I don't know. You guys got 48 hours to think
about it. I don't want to think about it anymore.
Maybe you don't, but you've got it for 48 hours.
Anyhow, bye. Bye.