WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.520 Okay, Chelsea, I am going to, because I don't 00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:05.480 want to do the same thing two weeks in a row. 00:00:05.639 --> 00:00:08.500 Okay. I'm going to give you a vague idea or a 00:00:08.500 --> 00:00:14.800 general topic. Oh, a choice. Yes. So we can talk 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:19.440 about ancient history. We can talk about genetics. 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:24.989 We can talk about a, what is this? You know, 00:00:24.989 --> 00:00:26.570 I'm just getting rid of this one. It looks too 00:00:26.570 --> 00:00:29.449 complicated. We can talk about the Moonies, which 00:00:29.449 --> 00:00:33.390 we can't because we've done that one. Okay. We 00:00:33.390 --> 00:00:37.570 can talk about aliens. Ah, this is a test for 00:00:37.570 --> 00:00:40.950 us. Or we can talk about space junk. Genetics. 00:00:41.109 --> 00:00:44.409 Okay. This one is from Live Live Science. We 00:00:44.409 --> 00:00:48.450 will never. We defy learning what the actual 00:00:48.450 --> 00:00:51.270 correct way to say it. Yeah. Great source. No 00:00:51.270 --> 00:00:55.640 idea how to say it. Refuse to learn. How do you 00:00:55.640 --> 00:01:03.719 find out? Who's to say? Anyhow, written on September 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:08.120 18th, 2025 by Kamal Nahas. Article title, tiny 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:11.939 brains grown in lab could become conscious and 00:01:11.939 --> 00:01:15.370 feel pain. And we are not ready. No, I'm not 00:01:15.370 --> 00:01:19.569 ready for this episode even. Uh -oh. So, scientists 00:01:19.569 --> 00:01:21.790 are getting closer to growing human brains in 00:01:21.790 --> 00:01:25.230 labs. And it's spurring an ethical debate over 00:01:25.230 --> 00:01:28.769 the welfare of these lab -reared tissues. The 00:01:28.769 --> 00:01:32.069 debate surrounds brain organoids, which are sometimes 00:01:32.069 --> 00:01:35.090 mistaken for sci -fi -inspired brains in boxes. 00:01:35.530 --> 00:01:38.870 I think we're going to learn. However, they appear 00:01:38.870 --> 00:01:41.189 to be a small assembly of brain tissues, because 00:01:41.189 --> 00:01:43.799 that's what they say. grown from stem cells are 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:46.099 too simple to function like a real human brain. 00:01:46.489 --> 00:01:50.189 As such, scientists have assumed brain organoids 00:01:50.189 --> 00:01:53.230 lack consciousness, which has led to lax research 00:01:53.230 --> 00:01:56.750 regulations. Some scientists, however, take a 00:01:56.750 --> 00:02:00.129 different view. Yeah. Quote, we feel that in 00:02:00.129 --> 00:02:02.109 the fear of hype and science fiction inspired 00:02:02.109 --> 00:02:05.069 exaggeration, the pendulum has swung too far 00:02:05.069 --> 00:02:06.950 in the opposite direction. End quote. Christopher 00:02:06.950 --> 00:02:10.469 Wood, a bioethics researcher at Zhejiang University 00:02:10.469 --> 00:02:13.500 in China, told Live Science in an email. In a 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:16.020 prospective piece published September 12th in 00:02:16.020 --> 00:02:18.479 the journal Patterns, Wood and his colleagues 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:21.360 argued that technological advances may soon lead 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:23.919 to the creation of conscious organoids. The authors 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:26.800 say regulations regarding the use of organoids 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:29.199 should be reviewed. It would be unethical for 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:32.020 a conscious organoid to experience its own thoughts 00:02:32.020 --> 00:02:35.560 and interests or to feel pain, said Boyd Lomax, 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:38.020 a neuroscientist at Johns Hopkins University. 00:02:38.729 --> 00:02:42.389 But reigning in consciousness may not be straightforward. 00:02:42.849 --> 00:02:45.650 The stem cells used to make organoids grow side 00:02:45.650 --> 00:02:48.449 by side and lack complex organization when they're 00:02:48.449 --> 00:02:51.650 cultured on a 2D surface like a dish. But when 00:02:51.650 --> 00:02:55.110 they're grown in a solid gel or a spinning bioreactor 00:02:55.110 --> 00:02:58.849 that keeps the cells aloft, they adopt 3D anatomical 00:02:58.849 --> 00:03:01.969 networks that resemble what's seen in an embryonic 00:03:01.969 --> 00:03:05.560 brain. Although they develop 3D features, brain 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:08.360 organoids are too simple to be conscious some 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:10.979 neuroscientists argue consciousness in a brain 00:03:10.979 --> 00:03:14.280 arises when different regions of the organ communicate 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:17.400 but organoids resemble only a single part of 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:20.199 the brain and none of these lab -grown mini brains 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:24.139 are larger than 0 .16 inches or four millimeters 00:03:24.139 --> 00:03:28.120 in diameter suggesting important faculties of 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:30.620 consciousness are missing. People often think 00:03:30.620 --> 00:03:33.139 of consciousness in humans or animals as a state 00:03:33.139 --> 00:03:37.680 of being aware of oneself. However, quote, we 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.280 think of consciousness in organoids as a basic 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:42.819 level of sensation, the capacity to feel pain 00:03:42.819 --> 00:03:45.280 and pleasure, end quote, said Andrea Lavazza, 00:03:45.460 --> 00:03:49.039 a moral philosopher and neuroethicist at Pegaso 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:52.120 University in Italy. Most neuroscientists define 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:54.659 consciousness as self -awareness or the ability 00:03:54.659 --> 00:03:58.159 to feel or experience something. Alison Muotri, 00:03:58.379 --> 00:04:00.360 a neuroscientist at the University of California, 00:04:00.539 --> 00:04:03.159 San Diego, told Live Science in an email. But 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:05.300 there is no universal agreed -upon definition, 00:04:05.780 --> 00:04:09.780 she said. He said. Wow. Alison is a he. Sorry, 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:14.060 plot twist in that one. Or typo. Who knows? Some 00:04:14.060 --> 00:04:16.279 definitions of consciousness focus on the brain's 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:18.720 ability to process and respond to its environment 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.560 through senses like sight and hearing. Brain 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:23.779 organoids are cultured outside of a body and 00:04:23.779 --> 00:04:27.560 cannot receive such signals, Lavazza noted. But 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.620 in the future, more advanced organoids could 00:04:30.620 --> 00:04:33.759 still theoretically experience pain. In humans, 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:37.339 membranes that envelop the brain, called meninges, 00:04:37.339 --> 00:04:39.120 which I think is where we take meningitis from, 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:42.259 contains neurons that can send pain signals to 00:04:42.259 --> 00:04:45.379 the organs. the worry is that the same could 00:04:45.379 --> 00:04:48.639 be possible in more sophisticated organoids on 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.319 the flip side Boyd argued that, quote, if an 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:53.500 organoid has the internal neural architecture 00:04:53.500 --> 00:04:56.779 necessary for representing pain, then no external 00:04:56.779 --> 00:04:59.639 signal would be required, end quote. So there 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.079 need not be a pain signal from a neuron for pain 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.980 to occur. This is how phantom pain arises in 00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:07.199 people who have lost limbs. That makes a lot 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:09.699 of sense. Wood noted, however, that it's unclear 00:05:09.699 --> 00:05:11.899 whether an organoid could experience something 00:05:11.899 --> 00:05:14.480 tantamount to phantom pain, as this might depend 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.379 on having a memory of the lost limb. So in words, 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:20.769 it's complicated. wow this actually goes on for 00:05:20.769 --> 00:05:23.069 quite some time so i'm going to link the article 00:05:23.069 --> 00:05:26.290 to yeah so you can read more but i think that 00:05:26.290 --> 00:05:29.430 gives enough i have so many thoughts on this 00:05:29.430 --> 00:05:33.149 this is such an interesting philosophical article 00:05:33.149 --> 00:05:37.089 i think number one my first comment i think is 00:05:37.089 --> 00:05:39.949 just something that while you were talking i 00:05:39.949 --> 00:05:43.939 think gave me pause, which was it. Was it my 00:05:43.939 --> 00:05:47.180 having to reread things? Yes. It was that Allison 00:05:47.180 --> 00:05:52.579 was a heap. No, it was that. What was it that 00:05:52.579 --> 00:05:56.779 you said that just merely by having a brain and 00:05:56.779 --> 00:06:02.160 being able to feel pleasure and pain. gives you 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.939 a what was it a sense of self a sense of consciousness 00:06:06.939 --> 00:06:11.000 consciousness now to me there are living things 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.779 that could experience pain that i don't think 00:06:14.779 --> 00:06:17.800 that people would necessarily think would have 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:21.839 a consciousness being parts of like the the reefs 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:25.300 and um stuff like that they still experience 00:06:25.300 --> 00:06:28.740 consciousness they just they exist they wouldn't 00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:31.970 have a sense of self yes But that doesn't mean 00:06:31.970 --> 00:06:35.290 they aren't conscious, yes. Exactly. And which 00:06:35.290 --> 00:06:39.430 also would bring up the fact of people who argue, 00:06:39.550 --> 00:06:42.709 and this was something as a part of a philosophy 00:06:42.709 --> 00:06:46.750 class that I took, at which point would you consider, 00:06:46.889 --> 00:06:50.490 and it was not just a regular philosophy class. 00:06:51.019 --> 00:06:54.560 it was i can't remember what exactly it was the 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:58.639 argument was abortion right or wrong and a part 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:01.860 of the and i think it's equally important in 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:04.040 what we're talking about right now at what point 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:08.300 do you feel a fetus would gain consciousness 00:07:08.300 --> 00:07:11.980 would gain a soul and what makes that right or 00:07:11.980 --> 00:07:15.939 wrong at what point and what the argument would 00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:18.279 be at what point do you think this thing gets 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:22.790 a soul and what is the meaning of a soul behind 00:07:22.790 --> 00:07:25.170 something like that. And I think it's a very 00:07:25.170 --> 00:07:27.910 relevant argument towards what we're talking 00:07:27.910 --> 00:07:31.329 about right now. I weirdly got that theme from 00:07:31.329 --> 00:07:33.269 this too. And it's almost like that ethically 00:07:33.269 --> 00:07:35.470 has to be talked about at the same time. Yes. 00:07:36.350 --> 00:07:40.389 But I didn't want to talk about it weirdly enough. 00:07:41.810 --> 00:07:44.689 Everybody knows the soul happens at the quickening. 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:47.439 The bad religion covered it well in their song, 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:49.300 The Quickening. Just go listen to that and you'll 00:07:49.300 --> 00:07:53.519 understand. But as weird as it seems, I think 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:57.639 it's pulling similar ties to it. Yeah. With something 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.740 that we're creating that isn't human, but could 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:05.019 potentially be. How do you measure that? One 00:08:05.019 --> 00:08:08.040 thing that bothered me that's left out from that 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:15.220 article, why are they growing these? Yes. Which 00:08:15.220 --> 00:08:17.220 gave me, and that was another point of mine, 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:19.779 why are they growing things and what the hell 00:08:19.779 --> 00:08:22.379 are they doing with them? I mean, my theory, 00:08:22.459 --> 00:08:25.540 Chelsea, just throwing it out there, it turns 00:08:25.540 --> 00:08:28.600 out reincarnation is the correct religious view 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:32.480 and they're just creating hell because these 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:34.919 things they're clearly ethically arguing can 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:38.649 only feel pain. You know what? There's something 00:08:38.649 --> 00:08:41.450 that leaves me very disturbed about the article 00:08:41.450 --> 00:08:44.830 as well, which is my third point. Which maybe 00:08:44.830 --> 00:08:47.429 gets covered in the last third of the article, 00:08:47.490 --> 00:08:51.190 which we could have read at this point. There's 00:08:51.190 --> 00:08:53.570 so many points I want to make. This is only the 00:08:53.570 --> 00:08:55.450 third. This is a big article. What the fuck are 00:08:55.450 --> 00:08:58.350 they doing? There's so many implications. There's 00:08:58.350 --> 00:09:02.529 so many implications. Too many to have for a 00:09:02.529 --> 00:09:04.450 minute. And I didn't know they were growing these. 00:09:05.610 --> 00:09:07.669 Like I've always kind of considered like human 00:09:07.669 --> 00:09:10.549 brains kind of off limits for rowing in a vat. 00:09:10.610 --> 00:09:13.289 No, there's nothing off limits for rowing in 00:09:13.289 --> 00:09:16.210 a vat these days. And I think before it goes 00:09:16.210 --> 00:09:19.129 too far. Not with the deregulation that we're 00:09:19.129 --> 00:09:23.309 living through these days. That's true. And what 00:09:23.309 --> 00:09:27.350 with the souls, the administration probably needs 00:09:27.350 --> 00:09:30.690 to collect in order to distract from the Epstein 00:09:30.690 --> 00:09:33.879 files. No. maybe the Epstein files are just the 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:35.679 friends we made along the way. And also these 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:37.500 little things in bats, because they're clearly 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:45.340 not 18. I think there's too much to this to comprehend. 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.700 And that's probably where the mini should end. 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:54.980 Yeah. And I mean, I think therefore I am, I almost 00:09:54.980 --> 00:09:57.480 feel like this is exactly what he was talking 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.899 about with the brain. Probably. I would say yes. 00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:03.120 I don't know. You guys got 48 hours to think 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:04.759 about it. I don't want to think about it anymore. 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:07.600 Maybe you don't, but you've got it for 48 hours. 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:09.679 Anyhow, bye. Bye.