WEBVTT 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:06.599 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join 00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:13.400 us on a Journey to the Fringe. Hello and welcome 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:15.919 to Journey to the Fringe, where the spirit of 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:18.420 the season is alive and well, but not in like 00:00:18.420 --> 00:00:21.500 a possessed sort of way, more like we like to 00:00:21.500 --> 00:00:25.019 exploit it for listens. So we are your exploiting 00:00:25.019 --> 00:00:27.320 podcast hosts Taylor and Chelsea. Here today. 00:00:27.629 --> 00:00:31.429 doing an episode on possessions in the criminal 00:00:31.429 --> 00:00:34.929 law system. I just really like the idea of somebody 00:00:34.929 --> 00:00:38.149 arguing in court that they were possessed, they 00:00:38.149 --> 00:00:41.409 didn't have capacity to commit a crime. It surprisingly 00:00:41.409 --> 00:00:43.750 happened more than you think. I just want to 00:00:43.750 --> 00:00:46.070 put it out into the universe. I know that I'm 00:00:46.070 --> 00:00:47.990 constantly saying, you know, I think I would 00:00:47.990 --> 00:00:51.170 be good at this job. You put out into the universe 00:00:51.170 --> 00:00:54.570 and just hope it comes back. I feel like the 00:00:54.570 --> 00:00:57.460 vibes I get from what this episode what is going 00:00:57.460 --> 00:01:01.420 to be so far. I could sit on a jury. No, maybe 00:01:01.420 --> 00:01:04.680 I would be the professional expert on it. I don't 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:07.099 know. I'm just putting out all the vibes that 00:01:07.099 --> 00:01:09.760 I get and we'll see what we come back with. And 00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:12.579 I will in my life. And it changes depending on 00:01:12.579 --> 00:01:15.140 what jurisdiction you're into. We don't quite 00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:18.019 have a case that's really relevant in Canada. 00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:21.099 However, I did put a Canadian case in here. Just 00:01:21.099 --> 00:01:24.010 because I think it is. possession adjacent, but 00:01:24.010 --> 00:01:26.069 you can be the judge when we get to it. Adjacent. 00:01:26.189 --> 00:01:29.049 Okay, I will be the judge because I assume by 00:01:29.049 --> 00:01:32.430 completing this episode I'm gonna be certified. 00:01:32.790 --> 00:01:35.150 Basically an expert on the topic. At least in 00:01:35.150 --> 00:01:39.609 some capacity in law towards possession or something, 00:01:39.810 --> 00:01:41.510 right? That's what you were thinking for this 00:01:41.510 --> 00:01:44.579 episode, right? Yeah, sure. at least for me whenever 00:01:44.579 --> 00:01:47.159 doing a law episode i do feel the need to say 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:50.379 this is not legal advice please go find a real 00:01:50.379 --> 00:01:53.620 lawyer get them to do some research and don't 00:01:53.620 --> 00:01:56.379 just have them listen to our episode if you are 00:01:56.379 --> 00:01:58.340 i was just gonna say facing some sort of murder 00:01:58.340 --> 00:02:00.890 charge and you were possessed at the time This 00:02:00.890 --> 00:02:04.090 is terrible way to start your defense. We see 00:02:04.090 --> 00:02:07.329 here exhibit number one. This was an expert from 00:02:07.329 --> 00:02:09.770 a Halloween episode of Journey to the Brand. 00:02:10.870 --> 00:02:13.110 But only kind of. We had this discussion. It's 00:02:13.110 --> 00:02:15.310 not really a Halloween episode because it's only 00:02:15.310 --> 00:02:17.870 a Halloween episode for one day and then most 00:02:17.870 --> 00:02:21.030 of our listens come after day one. So it can't 00:02:21.030 --> 00:02:23.189 quite be a Halloween episode. It still counts. 00:02:23.310 --> 00:02:27.889 It still counts. That's insane. In criminal law, 00:02:28.110 --> 00:02:30.189 a successful defense often hinges on whether 00:02:30.189 --> 00:02:33.090 the defendant had mens rea, the mental intent 00:02:33.090 --> 00:02:35.849 to commit the crime, the guilty mind. When someone 00:02:35.849 --> 00:02:38.069 claims they are possessed, they are hell -stem 00:02:38.069 --> 00:02:41.949 from a mental disorder or involuntary state. 00:02:42.250 --> 00:02:44.669 Courts typically reject supernatural claims outright. 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.939 But they may interpret them as signs of psychosis, 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:50.680 dissociation, or delusional thinking. In this 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:53.159 way, possession becomes a metaphor or symptom 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.919 of an underlying psychiatric condition. The challenge 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:00.840 is that possession lacks empirical grounding. 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.039 Unlike schizophrenia or dissociative identity 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:06.879 disorder, there's no clinical framework for diagnosing 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:09.840 demonic influence. So when defendants claim possession, 00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:12.479 courts often pivot to evaluating their mental 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:30.979 capacity. In essence, the legal system doesn't 00:03:30.979 --> 00:03:34.219 really say possession took place, but it treats 00:03:34.219 --> 00:03:37.360 it as a red flag for deeper psychological dysfunction. 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.259 like quantifying it as something just not like 00:03:43.259 --> 00:03:46.960 what the person lacked the guilty mind the actual 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:49.539 intention to do the crime is basically what you're 00:03:49.539 --> 00:03:51.669 arguing Because when you have a murder, you have 00:03:51.669 --> 00:03:53.870 two things. You have the actual death of a person, 00:03:54.150 --> 00:03:56.770 the killing, the action, the actus reus, the 00:03:56.770 --> 00:03:59.509 guilty act. What you also need to get murder 00:03:59.509 --> 00:04:02.830 is the mens rea, the guilty mind. So that's the 00:04:02.830 --> 00:04:04.810 difference between manslaughter and murder. Manslaughter, 00:04:04.849 --> 00:04:07.770 you just need the actual killing. With murder, 00:04:08.050 --> 00:04:10.990 you need both a killing and an intent to kill. 00:04:11.169 --> 00:04:14.020 Yeah. And what they argue with... possession 00:04:14.020 --> 00:04:16.839 is I didn't have the intent to kill because I 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:19.439 was possessed. Yeah, they're quantifying it as 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:22.199 a mental illness. They wouldn't take like a religious 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:25.279 stance on it that would consider it a possession. 00:04:25.579 --> 00:04:27.420 Yeah, and I think we actually kind of saw this 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:29.680 exact same thing play out on the haunted house 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:31.939 lawsuit that we looked at, where the courts make 00:04:31.939 --> 00:04:33.899 a lot of jokes about it actually being haunted, 00:04:33.939 --> 00:04:37.399 but more so focus on like the legal technicalities 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:39.199 that they would want to do it under. I can't 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:40.980 remember, oh gosh. Instead of actually making 00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:42.819 a finding that the house is haunted, it was. 00:04:42.730 --> 00:04:47.009 yeah yeah okay so interesting what and why is 00:04:47.009 --> 00:04:50.529 that just because like law wouldn't like that's 00:04:50.529 --> 00:04:52.889 not the place you know that's not the place to 00:04:52.889 --> 00:04:55.810 argue out whether or not possession can be something 00:04:55.810 --> 00:04:58.490 that actually exists all we're looking for is 00:04:58.490 --> 00:05:01.269 whether or not the person actually had the capacity 00:05:01.269 --> 00:05:04.029 to commit the crime like mentally want to carry 00:05:04.029 --> 00:05:06.660 out the action okay Okay, fair enough. And if 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:09.139 they can ground it on something an expert can 00:05:09.139 --> 00:05:11.220 talk about, then yeah, that's what you're gonna 00:05:11.220 --> 00:05:14.740 do. However, this does reveal a deeper tension 00:05:14.740 --> 00:05:17.540 between belief and psychiatric evaluation. Judges 00:05:17.540 --> 00:05:20.040 and juries may not accept that a demon pulled 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:21.819 the trigger, but they do consider whether the 00:05:21.819 --> 00:05:24.120 defendant had the mental capacity to form intent. 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:26.959 In this way, possession often serves as a dramatic 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:29.199 mask for underlying psychological disorders, 00:05:29.459 --> 00:05:31.500 reframed through the lens of insanity and automatism. 00:05:31.579 --> 00:05:33.680 To see how this plays out in practice, let's 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:36.069 turn to the cases themselves. where defendants 00:05:36.069 --> 00:05:38.230 gripped by what they believed were otherworldly 00:05:38.230 --> 00:05:41.209 forces, stood trial for crimes that shocked their 00:05:41.209 --> 00:05:44.009 communities. And we have actually covered one 00:05:44.009 --> 00:05:47.029 of these cases in a previous Halloween episode, 00:05:47.509 --> 00:05:50.029 strangely enough. Oh, Halloween has the best 00:05:50.029 --> 00:05:52.610 episodes. And this is the case of Michael Taylor, 00:05:52.870 --> 00:05:55.490 the Aweset murder case. I believe this is in 00:05:55.490 --> 00:05:58.649 the episode, Exercise is Good for the Soul. Yeah, 00:05:58.870 --> 00:06:01.899 that was a good episode. And this is just a summary 00:06:01.899 --> 00:06:03.819 of the case, because we go over it pretty in 00:06:03.819 --> 00:06:05.860 -depth there, but it's just a fun way to get 00:06:05.860 --> 00:06:09.699 the juices of possession flowing. Michael Taylor 00:06:09.699 --> 00:06:12.779 lived in Osset, West Yorkshire in England, and 00:06:12.779 --> 00:06:15.959 in 1974 the local vicar, Peter Vincent, called 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:18.639 in experienced ministers in preparation to cast 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:21.959 out demons residing in this man. the exorcism 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:24.339 occurred the night of october 5th going into 00:06:24.339 --> 00:06:27.779 the 6th 1974 at saint thomas's church in gober 00:06:27.779 --> 00:06:29.899 the exorcist believed that they oh my god how 00:06:29.899 --> 00:06:31.939 many times has this happened to us look at the 00:06:31.939 --> 00:06:35.579 date oh a lot recently this has happened to us 00:06:35.579 --> 00:06:38.980 multiple times that is the day we're recording 00:06:39.670 --> 00:06:42.790 That's so creepy. They stated in an all -night 00:06:42.790 --> 00:06:45.870 ceremony invoked and cast out at least 40 demons 00:06:45.870 --> 00:06:49.170 including those of incest, bestiality, blasphemy, 00:06:49.470 --> 00:06:52.209 and lewdness. At the end they were exhausted 00:06:52.209 --> 00:06:54.750 and they allowed Taylor to go home, although 00:06:54.750 --> 00:06:57.029 they felt that there were at least three demons 00:06:57.029 --> 00:07:01.389 left. Insanity, murder, and violence were still 00:07:01.389 --> 00:07:04.490 left in him. I remember this one. And that's 00:07:04.490 --> 00:07:06.889 the end of that quote. I can't believe if you're 00:07:06.889 --> 00:07:09.089 gonna leave them with anything, I don't mean 00:07:08.970 --> 00:07:12.129 Blasphemy can stay in there and take a birder 00:07:12.129 --> 00:07:17.509 out Like I can imagine there's a good like 40 00:07:17.509 --> 00:07:20.350 of them you can probably switch down. I think 00:07:20.350 --> 00:07:26.740 you start with murder because i assume they're 00:07:26.740 --> 00:07:29.139 picking and choosing what what they're casting 00:07:29.139 --> 00:07:31.740 out you don't think they just put like a spiritual 00:07:31.740 --> 00:07:34.319 fishing hook inside his navel or something like 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:37.160 that no i don't i don't imagine that's how it 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:39.240 works but this is just based on vibes from what 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:41.800 i can remember there's juice boxes involved but 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:44.279 i can't remember how you gotta go back and listen 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:50.139 to the episode yeah so taylor went home unsurprisingly 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:52.579 with insanity murder and violence left within 00:07:52.579 --> 00:07:55.949 him brutally murdered his wife Christine. This 00:07:55.949 --> 00:07:58.430 is very graphic. He attacks her with his bare 00:07:58.430 --> 00:08:01.389 hands, tearing her eyes and tongue out and almost 00:08:01.389 --> 00:08:03.230 tearing her face off. Oh, I remember this. And 00:08:03.230 --> 00:08:05.769 then strangling their poodle. He was found by 00:08:05.769 --> 00:08:08.110 policemen naked in the street covered in blood. 00:08:08.670 --> 00:08:11.069 Jesus Christ, yep, that sounds like all three 00:08:11.069 --> 00:08:13.949 of those demons too, doesn't it? I bet those 00:08:13.949 --> 00:08:16.129 guys felt really awkward after they realized 00:08:16.129 --> 00:08:18.129 that maybe they should have started with those 00:08:18.129 --> 00:08:21.879 ones. yeah maybe but they're so hard they're 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:24.439 the toughest ones and i'm surprised they even 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.379 admitted to leaving those specific demons in 00:08:27.379 --> 00:08:29.720 him i almost wonder if they should have been 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:32.519 held on trial for something i don't know what 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:35.700 because they were like yeah we definitely left 00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:38.860 those in they i think they do have some responsibility 00:08:38.860 --> 00:08:41.419 to be honest with you They were taking a break, 00:08:41.500 --> 00:08:44.320 though. This isn't quite a possession case because 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:46.759 he's acquitted on the grounds of insanity. He 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:49.139 lacked the mental capacity. He was sent to Broadmoor 00:08:49.139 --> 00:08:50.840 Hospital for two years and then spent another 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:53.299 two years in a secure ward in Bradford before 00:08:53.299 --> 00:08:55.940 being released. He's released? Yeah, oh yeah, 00:08:56.019 --> 00:08:59.159 after four years. Didn't recommit. Doesn't say 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:01.860 there if he was ever rid of those last three 00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:05.799 demons. I really hope so, but no, it does not. 00:09:06.500 --> 00:09:09.500 Okay, just curious. Before they released him, 00:09:09.500 --> 00:09:10.850 you would... think they would have done their 00:09:10.850 --> 00:09:13.549 due diligence, because look what happened leaving 00:09:13.549 --> 00:09:16.730 them in. I don't know, just my two cents. I really 00:09:16.730 --> 00:09:18.830 hope they at least got somebody else to do it. 00:09:18.990 --> 00:09:20.850 The exorcists who were doing it the first time 00:09:20.850 --> 00:09:25.169 around just did not seem up to the task. Incompetent, 00:09:25.389 --> 00:09:29.690 at the least. Next up is the case of Arne Cheyenne 00:09:29.690 --> 00:09:31.850 Johnson. They call this the Devil Made Me Do 00:09:31.850 --> 00:09:34.990 It case in 1981 in Connecticut. Arne Cheyenne 00:09:34.990 --> 00:09:37.529 Johnson and Debbie Glatzel, they provide firsthand 00:09:37.529 --> 00:09:40.389 accounts of basically what happened to them in 00:09:40.389 --> 00:09:42.669 a Discovery Channel show called A Haunting and 00:09:42.669 --> 00:09:44.649 an episode called Where Demons Well. In this 00:09:44.649 --> 00:09:46.610 they say that their father was an eyewitness 00:09:46.610 --> 00:09:49.049 to demonic possession. Arn Cheyenne, Johnson, 00:09:49.250 --> 00:09:52.070 and Debbie Glatzel assert that paranormal activity 00:09:52.070 --> 00:09:54.610 began after they went to clean up a rental property 00:09:54.610 --> 00:09:57.750 they had just acquired. Who's David? Why does 00:09:57.750 --> 00:10:00.789 that say David right there? I don't know. David 00:10:00.789 --> 00:10:03.389 recalled an old man suddenly appeared pushing 00:10:03.389 --> 00:10:06.370 and terrifying him. Oh, David is Arn Cheyenne's 00:10:06.370 --> 00:10:08.450 spouse. The couple initially thought David was 00:10:08.450 --> 00:10:10.730 using the old man as an excuse to avoid cleaning, 00:10:10.809 --> 00:10:13.129 but David informed them that the old man had 00:10:13.129 --> 00:10:15.610 vowed to harm the Glatzels if they moved into 00:10:15.610 --> 00:10:17.809 the rental home. David's vision of the old man 00:10:17.809 --> 00:10:19.970 included the man appearing as a demonic beast 00:10:19.970 --> 00:10:22.049 who muttered Latin and threatened to steal his 00:10:22.049 --> 00:10:25.269 soul. Oh no. Although the family alleged hearing 00:10:25.269 --> 00:10:27.169 strange noises coming from the attic, no one 00:10:27.169 --> 00:10:29.370 but David ever witnessed the old man. And why 00:10:29.370 --> 00:10:31.429 the fuck didn't David say anything? Well, he 00:10:31.429 --> 00:10:33.950 kinda did. After David experienced night terrors, 00:10:34.230 --> 00:10:36.429 exhibited strange behavior and obtained explained 00:10:36.429 --> 00:10:38.610 scratches and bruises, the family called upon 00:10:38.610 --> 00:10:40.450 the services of a Catholic priest who attempted 00:10:40.450 --> 00:10:42.470 to bless the house. Nah, you gotta leave. The 00:10:42.470 --> 00:10:44.370 terrified family concluded that the house was 00:10:44.370 --> 00:10:46.769 evil and would no longer continue to rent it. 00:10:47.029 --> 00:10:49.149 David's visions worsened, occurring in the daytime 00:10:49.149 --> 00:10:51.330 as well. 12 days after the original incident, 00:10:51.389 --> 00:10:53.490 the family summoned the demonologist, Ed and 00:10:53.490 --> 00:10:55.990 Lorraine Warren, to assist. Oh, thank god. We 00:10:55.990 --> 00:10:58.269 have a whole episode on Ed and Lorraine Warren, 00:10:58.350 --> 00:11:00.750 you can go back and listen to that. It's a good 00:11:00.750 --> 00:11:04.230 episode. Lorraine witnessed a black mist materialize 00:11:04.230 --> 00:11:07.009 next to David and indi - of a malevolent presence. 00:11:07.370 --> 00:11:09.210 Debbie and her mother told the Warrens they had 00:11:09.210 --> 00:11:11.590 seen David being beaten and choked by invisible 00:11:11.590 --> 00:11:13.769 hands and the red marks had appeared on his neck 00:11:13.769 --> 00:11:16.610 afterwards. David had started to growl his speaking 00:11:16.610 --> 00:11:19.110 otherworldly voices and recite passages from 00:11:19.110 --> 00:11:22.809 the Bible or Paradise Lost. The Glatzels recounted 00:11:22.809 --> 00:11:25.289 how each night a family member would remain awake 00:11:25.289 --> 00:11:27.950 with David as he suffered through spasms and 00:11:27.950 --> 00:11:30.789 convulsions. After receiving a prognosis of multiple 00:11:30.789 --> 00:11:33.029 possessions from the Warrens, David was subjected 00:11:33.029 --> 00:11:37.679 to three lesser Lorraine asserts that David levitated, 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:39.659 ceased breathing for time, and even demonstrated 00:11:39.659 --> 00:11:42.299 the supernatural ability of precognition, specifically 00:11:42.299 --> 00:11:44.539 in relation to the manslaughter Johnson would 00:11:44.539 --> 00:11:47.139 later commit. Spoiler alert for the end of the 00:11:47.139 --> 00:11:50.230 story here. In October of 1980, the Warrens contacted 00:11:50.230 --> 00:11:52.529 Brookfield police to warn them that the situation 00:11:52.529 --> 00:11:55.169 was becoming dangerous. According to the eyewitness 00:11:55.169 --> 00:11:58.230 testimony, Aaron Johnson coerced one of the demons 00:11:58.230 --> 00:12:00.269 reportedly within David to possess him while 00:12:00.269 --> 00:12:02.870 participating in David's exorcism. After this 00:12:02.870 --> 00:12:04.889 incident, Johnson returned to the rental property 00:12:04.889 --> 00:12:07.470 to examine an old well that supposedly housed 00:12:07.470 --> 00:12:10.490 the demon. Johnson said that this was his final 00:12:10.490 --> 00:12:12.529 encounter with the demon while completely lucid. 00:12:12.629 --> 00:12:14.470 After encountering the demon at the well and 00:12:14.470 --> 00:12:16.710 making eye contact with it, he became possessed. 00:12:16.750 --> 00:12:18.929 The Warrens claimed to have warned him not to 00:12:18.929 --> 00:12:21.409 do this. What, make eye contact with the demon? 00:12:21.570 --> 00:12:23.830 I don't know if they said don't go to the well 00:12:23.830 --> 00:12:25.809 or don't make eye contact with it, but anyhow 00:12:25.809 --> 00:12:28.210 they told him don't do something and he did. 00:12:28.629 --> 00:12:31.519 Okay. As David's condition worsened further, 00:12:31.820 --> 00:12:34.679 Debbie and Johnson, who had been living in her 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.019 mother's home, decided it was time to move. Debbie 00:12:37.019 --> 00:12:40.399 was hired by Alan Bono, a new resident in Brooksfield, 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.139 as a dog groomer. Debbie and Johnson began renting 00:12:43.139 --> 00:12:45.360 an apartment close to her place of employment. 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:47.860 After moving in, Johnson started to exhibit odd 00:12:47.860 --> 00:12:50.240 behavior that was strikingly similar to David's, 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:52.399 causing Debbie to fear that he had become possessed 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:55.039 as well. According to Debbie, Johnson would fall 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:57.399 into a trance -like state wherein he would growl 00:12:57.399 --> 00:12:59.870 and hallucinate, but later no memory of it. And 00:12:59.870 --> 00:13:03.429 on February 16th, 1981, Johnson called in sick 00:13:03.429 --> 00:13:06.350 to his job at Right Tree Service and joined Debbie 00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:08.649 at the kennel where she worked, along with his 00:13:08.649 --> 00:13:10.690 sister Wanda and Debbie's nine -year -old cousin 00:13:10.690 --> 00:13:13.330 Mary. Bono, the couple's landlord and Debbie's 00:13:13.330 --> 00:13:15.429 employer at the kennel, bought the group lunch 00:13:15.429 --> 00:13:17.529 at a local bar and proceeded to drink heavily. 00:13:17.789 --> 00:13:20.289 After lunch, the group returned to the kennel. 00:13:20.470 --> 00:13:22.370 Debbie then took the girls to get pizza, but 00:13:22.370 --> 00:13:24.529 insisted they return quickly anticipating trouble. 00:13:24.669 --> 00:13:27.110 When they returned, Bono, intoxicated at this 00:13:27.110 --> 00:13:29.309 point, became agitated. Everyone left the room 00:13:29.309 --> 00:13:31.889 at Debbie's urging, except Bono, who seized Mary 00:13:31.889 --> 00:13:34.549 and refused to let go. Johnson headed back to 00:13:34.549 --> 00:13:36.950 the apartment and ordered Bono to release Mary. 00:13:37.429 --> 00:13:39.009 Wander recounted the following events to the 00:13:39.009 --> 00:13:41.610 police. Mary ran for the car as Debbie attempted 00:13:41.610 --> 00:13:44.049 to mitigate the situation by standing between 00:13:44.049 --> 00:13:46.799 the two men. wanted to try in vain to pull Johnson 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:49.559 away. Johnson, growling like an animal, then 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:52.419 drew a five -inch pocket knife and stabbed Bono 00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:55.120 repeatedly. Bono died several hours later, according 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:58.019 to Johnson's lawyer. Bono had suffered four or 00:13:58.019 --> 00:14:00.679 five tremendous wounds, mostly to his chest and 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:02.539 one that stretched from his stomach to the base 00:14:02.539 --> 00:14:04.779 of his heart. Johnson was discovered two miles 00:14:04.779 --> 00:14:07.539 away from the site of the killing. Sergeant Gordon 00:14:07.539 --> 00:14:09.899 Fairchild of the Brookfield Police Department 00:14:09.899 --> 00:14:13.059 said he helped arrest Johnson on a charge of 00:14:13.059 --> 00:14:15.120 assault while Alan Bono was still being treated 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.240 at the hospital. He said Johnson told him he 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.539 did not mean to hurt anyone and was unable to 00:14:19.539 --> 00:14:21.440 remember anything. While putting him in the police 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.899 cruiser, Johnson said, quote, I need help because 00:14:23.899 --> 00:14:26.379 I've got a drinking problem, end quote, Fairchild 00:14:26.379 --> 00:14:28.700 said. When Johnson was informed at police headquarters 00:14:28.700 --> 00:14:30.940 that Bono had died, Fairchild said the suspect 00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:33.460 became incoherent and then fell. asleep for 20 00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:36.299 to 25 minutes. When Johnson awoke, police detective 00:14:36.299 --> 00:14:38.820 Sergeant John Lucas advised him of his rights 00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:42.480 and charged Arne Johnson with murder. They just 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.879 let him take a nap? Yeah, for 20 to 25 minutes. 00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:48.679 They're like, oh, he fell asleep. He's probably 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:50.980 in a jail. Let's just wait until he wakes up 00:14:50.980 --> 00:14:54.379 to read of his rights. Let's not do it now. Look 00:14:54.379 --> 00:14:57.120 how cute he looks when he's sleeping. He just 00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:59.120 murdered somebody. I think I would let him sleep 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:03.600 too. Do you think? Yeah. Okay. Okay, maybe it's 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.740 just me. Interestingly enough, apparently, if 00:15:06.740 --> 00:15:08.500 this ever comes up in trivia, it's the first 00:15:08.500 --> 00:15:10.480 unlawful killing in the history of Brookfield, 00:15:10.659 --> 00:15:12.620 Connecticut. So if you're in like bar trivia 00:15:12.620 --> 00:15:16.600 in Brookfield, that might come up. Wow. Interesting. 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.580 And I just feel like there are so many warning 00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:24.440 signs ahead of this where Ed and Lorraine Warren 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:26.980 come in and they're just like, whatever they 00:15:26.980 --> 00:15:29.179 said, don't make eye contact with it or anything. 00:15:29.299 --> 00:15:32.559 Whatever you do, don't do it. I feel like if 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:35.639 there's an old man that was like telling me to 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:37.759 get out and all this stuff that I can't remember 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:40.700 what he said now, I'd be like, I'm gonna probably 00:15:40.700 --> 00:15:43.679 just move out. Well, and they were renting too, 00:15:43.779 --> 00:15:46.200 like was the rent that low? or was it that hard 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:49.100 to rent in Brookfield? That's true. You see it 00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:50.840 again and again in haunting things like that. 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:53.419 People can't afford to like move when they're 00:15:53.419 --> 00:15:55.799 in a bad situation. It's not just hauntings, 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.620 it's also bad landlords and stuff like that. 00:15:58.820 --> 00:16:00.899 Oh yeah, a bad relationship with physical abuse, 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:03.419 yeah. And they can't afford because of financial 00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:06.659 means, but I feel like this one is not that bad 00:16:06.659 --> 00:16:09.159 relationship or stuff isn't a bad sign to get 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.799 out, but the signs were all there to probably 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:17.820 just like leave. Yeah. To be fair, this is looking 00:16:17.820 --> 00:16:20.379 at back on it in hindsight of knowing there's 00:16:20.379 --> 00:16:23.720 a murder that took place. No, they were well 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.879 aware that he was seeing an entity that was reciting 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:29.200 Latin. I would be out of there. Yeah, but I mean, 00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:31.980 who amongst us has not had somebody just randomly 00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:34.539 start spouting Latin at them and thought, you 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:36.860 know what, I'm not moving. That takes a lot of 00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:40.200 work. It's never okay. It's never, you always 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.580 gotta move if there's any Latin being taught. 00:16:43.690 --> 00:16:46.909 Especially backwards. Especially. The day after 00:16:46.909 --> 00:16:49.549 the killing, Lorraine Warren informs Brookfield 00:16:49.549 --> 00:16:51.690 police that Johnson was possessed when the crime 00:16:51.690 --> 00:16:54.309 was committed. Just has to get her nose in there. 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:57.159 Yep, as they do. A media blitz soon surrounded 00:16:57.159 --> 00:16:59.639 the story fueled in part by the Warrens, and 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:02.879 I think the in part is a little misleading with 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.799 that, whose agents promise that lectures, a book, 00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:08.160 and a movie detailing the gruesome case were 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:11.960 in the works. Martina Mannella, Johnson's lawyer, 00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:14.359 received calls from all over the world about 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:16.839 what was being called the Demon Murder Trial. 00:17:17.019 --> 00:17:19.059 Mannella traveled to England to meet with lawyers 00:17:19.059 --> 00:17:21.279 who had been involved in two similar cases. We 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:23.380 know one which we just talked about. He planned 00:17:23.380 --> 00:17:26.089 to bring an exorcism specialist from Europe and 00:17:26.089 --> 00:17:28.109 threatened to subpoena the priests who oversaw 00:17:28.109 --> 00:17:30.890 David Glatzel's exorcism if they did not cooperate 00:17:30.890 --> 00:17:33.269 with the defense. The trial took place in Connecticut 00:17:33.269 --> 00:17:35.730 Superior Court in Danbury, beginning on October 00:17:35.730 --> 00:17:38.809 28, 1981. Manila attempted to submit a plea of 00:17:38.809 --> 00:17:41.349 not guilty by virtue of possession, but the presiding 00:17:41.349 --> 00:17:43.970 judge, Robert Callahan, promptly rejected this 00:17:43.970 --> 00:17:46.529 defense. Callahan argued that no such defense 00:17:46.529 --> 00:17:49.930 could ever exist in law due to the lack of evidence 00:17:49.930 --> 00:17:52.390 and that it would be irrelevant and unscientific 00:17:52.390 --> 00:17:56.710 to allow related testimony. That answers my question. 00:17:56.990 --> 00:17:59.569 The defense chose to imply that Johnson acted 00:17:59.569 --> 00:18:02.109 in self -defense. Because of this, the jury was 00:18:02.109 --> 00:18:04.269 not legally allowed to consider demonic possession 00:18:04.269 --> 00:18:06.930 as a viable explanation for the killing. The 00:18:06.930 --> 00:18:09.529 jury deliberated for 15 hours over three days 00:18:09.529 --> 00:18:12.710 before convicting Johnson on November 24th, 1981, 00:18:12.849 --> 00:18:15.609 of first -degree manslaughter. On December 18th, 00:18:15.630 --> 00:18:17.910 1981, he was sentenced to 10 to 20 years behind 00:18:17.910 --> 00:18:20.430 bars, though he served only five years, or approximately 00:18:20.430 --> 00:18:23.079 one month shorter of five years. On second thought, 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:25.539 I feel like I couldn't be on the jury on something 00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:27.980 like this, because as soon as they even hinted 00:18:27.980 --> 00:18:30.099 at possession, I don't know that I would ever 00:18:30.099 --> 00:18:33.059 get it out of my head. And therefore, I would 00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:35.119 fuck everything up. You would actually be pretty 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:38.119 terrible on a jury, just because a judge does 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.680 have to say, okay, don't think about this. Don't 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:42.960 consider this. You can not consider what - What? 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:44.660 Yeah, if something's stricken from the record. 00:18:44.660 --> 00:18:46.119 That's all I would think of. Like an objection? 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:48.559 Yeah. You'll say, Kate, no, you can't consider 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.589 that. And then I know you would be like, I can't 00:18:51.589 --> 00:18:54.509 think of anything but this. And then when you're 00:18:54.509 --> 00:18:56.549 deliberating, I'd be like, has everyone ever 00:18:56.549 --> 00:18:59.049 thought of whatever this thing is that was stricken 00:18:59.049 --> 00:19:02.930 from the record? Are we considering that in this? 00:19:03.029 --> 00:19:07.640 Yeah, I'm just saying this off the record. So 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.220 if I'm ever on a jury, then I have to start with, 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.539 I just have to be honest, I cannot... Don't tell 00:19:13.539 --> 00:19:16.900 me what not to do. Yeah, I cannot mentally get 00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:19.240 around something that you tell me not to think 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:22.799 of. And if there's even a small chance of possession, 00:19:23.099 --> 00:19:27.319 I'm gonna side with possession. Okay? Okay. And 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:29.680 I'm sorry, we just need to look at the speed 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.880 of the 1980s court system. The murder happened 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:37.079 on February 16th, 1981, is convicted on November 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:42.000 24th, 1981, and sentenced on December 18th, 1981. 00:19:42.259 --> 00:19:45.420 But this was their first one. Yeah, true. But 00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:47.880 you think that maybe it took longer. I should 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:51.319 say first in that town, this court system, he 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.599 stood trial in sorry, where was it? Connecticut. 00:19:56.220 --> 00:19:58.759 Yeah, thank you for that. It was somewhere else 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:01.039 in Connecticut that would have been able to handle 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:05.079 a murder trial. See, I was right. Okay, while 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:07.420 we're on the topic, this is not on the topic, 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.400 there's no Ed and Lorraine Warren of our time, 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:14.599 is there? Possession -wise, no. Spirituality 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.119 isn't as popular as it used to be in the haunting 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.700 and possession sort of way. That's true. It's 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:23.839 more so alien stuff, and I think bigger people 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:26.519 are in the UFO community than the spirituality 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.960 community these days. And this one is a movie, 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:33.900 right? Yes. It's actually been many movies. Really? 00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:37.880 Oh yeah. And I find this defense lawyer seem 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:40.880 to do a terrible job. Do you agree with me, Chelsea, 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:43.259 in that they wouldn't let her use possession, 00:20:43.420 --> 00:20:46.490 so she used self -defense? Instead of saying, 00:20:46.750 --> 00:20:49.789 I don't know, lacked mental capacity, insanity, 00:20:50.130 --> 00:20:51.730 something along the lines of that. No, that's 00:20:51.730 --> 00:20:55.210 true. Even I know that. And I don't know much 00:20:55.210 --> 00:20:57.609 about love. This lawyer seemed a little butthurt 00:20:57.609 --> 00:20:59.369 that she couldn't go with something that would 00:20:59.369 --> 00:21:01.690 be like groundbreaking. So she said, screw it, 00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:06.970 I'm not gonna represent well at all now. Okay, 00:21:07.069 --> 00:21:09.049 and what happened to him again? Sorry, he was 00:21:09.049 --> 00:21:11.410 found guilty. He was found guilty, served just 00:21:11.410 --> 00:21:13.559 under five years in jail. Yeah, because those 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:16.940 lawyers sucked. Five, under five years? Yeah. 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:20.920 Actually, in possession cases with murder, we're 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:23.019 averaging right around four and a half years, 00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:25.920 which is kind of crazy. That is super crazy, 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.059 and especially because none of them can be, like, 00:21:29.259 --> 00:21:32.099 ruled possessed. Like, they're still being found. 00:21:32.099 --> 00:21:34.220 I'm almost wondering if it's taken into account 00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:37.119 in sentencing or something. They can't, but you 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:39.299 also, you take into account all these factors. 00:21:39.460 --> 00:21:41.920 Because this one said that it was self -defense. 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:45.619 And could the judge rule on that? I doubt it. 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.019 On convicting, you can't. But I'm wondering under 00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:50.880 sentencing if that's a factor that they take 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:52.740 into account for how many years you should get. 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:55.740 Well, it seems like it is around four. Yeah. 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.329 Go one rate. After this all happens, Lorraine 00:21:59.329 --> 00:22:01.609 Warren defends her work with the family, claiming 00:22:01.609 --> 00:22:03.789 that the six priests who were involved in the 00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:05.589 incident agreed at the time that the boy was 00:22:05.589 --> 00:22:07.430 possessed and that the supernatural events she 00:22:07.430 --> 00:22:10.289 described were real. Unfortunately, I don't think 00:22:10.289 --> 00:22:12.089 she ever took the stand here, because I would 00:22:12.089 --> 00:22:14.289 have loved to see her as an expert and get cross 00:22:14.289 --> 00:22:17.750 -examined under oath. Because you know this woman 00:22:17.750 --> 00:22:21.269 has lied so much in her life. Oh yeah. No independent 00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:23.609 verification of this claim about the priest's 00:22:23.609 --> 00:22:25.869 alleged views was provided. Glatzel's father, 00:22:26.150 --> 00:22:28.390 Carl Glatzel Sr. denies telling the author that 00:22:28.390 --> 00:22:30.730 his son was possessed, Johnson and Debbie now 00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:33.029 married, wholeheartedly support the Warren's 00:22:33.029 --> 00:22:34.910 account of demonic possession, and have stated 00:22:34.910 --> 00:22:37.789 that the litigants were suing simply for the 00:22:37.789 --> 00:22:41.539 money. Then this gets so like I'm sure Johnson's 00:22:41.539 --> 00:22:44.400 doing pretty well from like everything that he's 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.279 been represented in a media. So starting in 1983, 00:22:47.539 --> 00:22:50.019 he's still in jail at that point, like sort of 00:22:50.019 --> 00:22:52.220 two years into his five -year sentence. Gerald 00:22:52.220 --> 00:22:54.660 Brittle, with the assistance of Lorraine Warren, 00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:56.799 published a book about the incident entitled 00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:59.579 The Devil in Connecticut. Lorraine Warren states 00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:01.539 that profits from the book were shared with the 00:23:01.539 --> 00:23:04.119 family. However, sources confirm that $2 ,000 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:05.940 were paid to the family by the book publisher. 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:10.319 So not that much. And that comes up again and 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:13.059 again with them. Upon the book's re -publication 00:23:13.059 --> 00:23:16.200 in 2006 by iUniverse, David Glatzel and his brother 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:19.220 Carl Glatzel Jr. sued the authors and book publishers 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:21.680 for violating their right to privacy, libel, 00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:24.039 and intentional infliction of emotional distress. 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.339 Carl also claimed that the book alleged he committed 00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:28.420 criminal and abusive acts against his family 00:23:28.420 --> 00:23:30.299 and others. He said that the possession story 00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:32.720 was a hoax concocted by Ed and Lorraine Warren 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.880 to exploit the family and his brother's mental 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.180 illness, and that the book represents him as 00:23:37.180 --> 00:23:38.859 the villain because he did not believe in the 00:23:38.859 --> 00:23:41.190 supernatural claims. He asserted that the Warren's 00:23:41.190 --> 00:23:43.690 author, Brittle, author of The Devil in Connecticut, 00:23:43.809 --> 00:23:46.450 says he wrote the book because, quote, the family 00:23:46.450 --> 00:23:48.930 wanted the story told, end quote, that he possesses 00:23:48.930 --> 00:23:51.329 videos of over 100 hours of his interviews with 00:23:51.329 --> 00:23:52.910 the family and that they signed off on the book 00:23:52.910 --> 00:23:55.009 as accurate before it went to print. According 00:23:55.009 --> 00:23:57.609 to Carl Glatzel, publicity generated by the incident 00:23:57.609 --> 00:23:59.549 forced him to drop out of school and lose friends 00:23:59.549 --> 00:24:02.230 and business opportunities. In 2007, he began 00:24:02.230 --> 00:24:04.609 writing a book, titled Alone Through the Valley, 00:24:04.710 --> 00:24:06.750 about his version of the events surrounding his 00:24:06.750 --> 00:24:09.190 brother. I don't know if that book ever got made. 00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:12.900 The events inspire the premise of the 2021 film, 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:15.740 The Conjuring the Devil Made Me Do It, and an 00:24:15.740 --> 00:24:18.579 earlier made -for -TV film is also based on the 00:24:18.579 --> 00:24:21.359 case, The Demon Murder Case, which was produced 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:25.099 again in 1983 and starred Kevin Bacon. I have 00:24:25.099 --> 00:24:28.809 never heard of this. What? Nope. Netflix produced 00:24:28.809 --> 00:24:31.470 a documentary in 2023, The Devil on Trial, based 00:24:31.470 --> 00:24:33.690 on this case. It includes interviews with Carl 00:24:33.690 --> 00:24:36.589 Glatzel, whose comments suggest a naturalistic 00:24:36.589 --> 00:24:39.049 alternative to demonic possession in the influence 00:24:39.049 --> 00:24:41.369 of Salmonex. One thing that actually just made 00:24:41.369 --> 00:24:43.670 me think, they must have had a pretty terrible 00:24:43.670 --> 00:24:46.470 case for insanity if they dropped it right after 00:24:46.470 --> 00:24:48.130 they said, no, you can't do possession, then 00:24:48.130 --> 00:24:52.769 say, OK, self -defense. The case could not have 00:24:52.769 --> 00:24:56.779 been good. This really fucks everything up. No 00:24:56.779 --> 00:24:58.920 kidding, either that or they were just a really 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.839 terrible lawyer. Just like a fuckup, like just 00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:04.740 barely passed the bar. Yeah, I don't know. It's 00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:09.660 one or the other. Maybe both. Yeah. It's so weird. 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:12.440 One does not preclude the other. But yeah, that's 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:14.880 the conjuring case that is probably the most 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:16.640 famous of all of this. I think it's the most 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:19.619 made up of all of them, too. Really? Mostly because 00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:21.539 of the Warrens. If you get the Warrens names 00:25:21.539 --> 00:25:23.079 involving anything, I'm like, oh, they're lying. 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:24.960 They just wanted to make money off this. Oh, 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:27.640 sorry. Of all your cases? Yeah. Oh, okay. I thought 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:29.880 you just meant of... Actually, I don't know what 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:31.640 I was thinking. Of law in general. Now that I 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:33.720 think about it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:35.720 what the fuck I was thinking there. The warrants 00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:39.369 are just absolutely full of shit. My next case 00:25:39.369 --> 00:25:42.170 although you definitely know this case But you 00:25:42.170 --> 00:25:45.009 would not think of it as a possession case and 00:25:45.009 --> 00:25:48.289 that is David Berkowitz the son of Sam killer 00:25:48.289 --> 00:25:51.869 Maybe I would think of it as a possession case. 00:25:51.869 --> 00:25:54.630 There was something with him. Oh, yeah, it's 00:25:54.630 --> 00:25:57.089 very direct Although it's gonna be very short 00:25:57.089 --> 00:25:59.210 because it's not that great of a possession case 00:25:59.210 --> 00:26:01.710 But nonetheless super famous case and because 00:26:01.710 --> 00:26:03.549 it does get brought up. I thought it's important 00:26:03.549 --> 00:26:06.210 to kind of include it here Yeah, okay. I like 00:26:06.210 --> 00:26:08.769 this one. We haven't really talked serial killers 00:26:08.769 --> 00:26:11.890 on the podcast before but I did just watch the 00:26:11.890 --> 00:26:14.809 document well maybe like a month like no month 00:26:14.809 --> 00:26:17.490 two three months ago I did watch the documentary 00:26:17.490 --> 00:26:20.960 on Netflix Okay, well, I'm gonna give everybody 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.380 a Coles Notes of this case just so that you can 00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:25.740 kind of like, oh right, that famous serial killer. 00:26:26.059 --> 00:26:29.640 Between July 1976 and July 1977, New York was 00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:32.119 gripped by fear as a series of seemingly random 00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:34.519 shootings left six people dead and seven wounded. 00:26:34.819 --> 00:26:37.119 The killer targeted young couples, often while 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.740 they sat in parked cars late at night. The assailant 00:26:39.740 --> 00:26:42.720 used a .44 caliber revolver and left behind cryptic 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.160 letters signed, Son of Sam. These letters taunted 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:47.599 police and the media, fueling a frenzy of speculation 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:49.660 and panic. The city was paralyzed with residents 00:26:49.660 --> 00:26:51.440 altering their routines and police launching 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.640 one of the largest manhunts in New York history. 00:26:53.900 --> 00:26:56.339 The breakthrough came when a parking ticket issued 00:26:56.339 --> 00:26:58.119 near one of the crime scenes led investigators 00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:01.200 to David Berkowitz, a 24 -year -old postal worker 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.240 from Yonkers. Upon searching his car and apartment, 00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.799 police found the murder weapons, another incriminating 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.859 evidence, and Berkowitz was arrested on August 00:27:08.859 --> 00:27:12.240 10th, 1977 and quickly confessed to the killings. 00:27:12.420 --> 00:27:15.869 When he was arrested, He quickly confessed and 00:27:15.869 --> 00:27:19.210 claimed that a demon named Harvey had possessed 00:27:19.210 --> 00:27:22.769 his neighbor Sam Carr's dog and was sending him 00:27:22.769 --> 00:27:25.660 messages to kill. Berkowitz said he was tormented 00:27:25.660 --> 00:27:28.180 by voices and compelled to obey their commands, 00:27:28.420 --> 00:27:30.720 describing himself as a soldier in a satanic 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.259 war. This narrative was reinforced by the cryptic 00:27:33.259 --> 00:27:35.880 letters, he sent to police and media science 00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:39.039 son of Sam, which reference occult themes, paranoia, 00:27:39.160 --> 00:27:41.539 and a mysterious network of evil forces. The 00:27:41.539 --> 00:27:44.039 possession claim wasn't just a personal delusion, 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:46.599 it became a public spectacle feeding into the 00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:49.359 era's growing fear of satanic cults and ritualistic 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:52.740 crimes. However, The legal system didn't entertain 00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:56.019 the possession defense at all. He was found completely 00:27:56.019 --> 00:27:58.319 competent to stand trial and pleaded guilty to 00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:02.019 all charges. Over time, He recanted on the demonic 00:28:02.019 --> 00:28:04.440 story, admitting it was a hoax designed to mislead 00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:07.099 investigators and amplify its notoriety. In later 00:28:07.099 --> 00:28:09.599 interviews and writings, Berkowitz claimed he 00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.359 fabricated the possession angle to mask deeper 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.259 psychological issues and to manipulate the media. 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:17.920 He eventually goes on to become a born -again 00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:20.200 Christian while he's in prison, renouncing his 00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:22.819 past and urging others not to glorify his crimes, 00:28:22.900 --> 00:28:29.680 and even now goes by the Son of Hope. He's still 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.160 alive, too. He really loves that son of a... 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:38.579 Yeah. No idea why. You know what? I really don't 00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:40.559 think that I finished the documentary because 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.140 I didn't know that last part. I knew the other 00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:45.640 stuff. And about the dog, it was the dog that 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:48.359 was the weird part. The freaking dog, yeah. And 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:50.279 yeah, he's technically not possessed, but also 00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:52.160 he said there were voices commanding him. So 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:55.099 he was kind of, if you take it literally in that 00:28:55.099 --> 00:28:58.480 way, he also was, um... possessed, but also he 00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:00.279 wasn't because he says he made the whole story 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.440 up. Interesting how that works. That was a pleasant 00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:07.180 surprise. This one is really weird. I like this 00:29:07.180 --> 00:29:09.740 story a lot, but viewer discretion advised on 00:29:09.740 --> 00:29:12.039 this one. It's not as gory as the first one, 00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:15.440 but it just it's kind of a little sad at the 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.880 end. Oh no, I hate sad at the end. It doesn't 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:21.460 involve a pet, does it? It does not. You're fine. 00:29:21.819 --> 00:29:24.779 OK, OK, because that needs a different viewer 00:29:24.779 --> 00:29:27.849 discretion advice. It does. So this is the story 00:29:27.849 --> 00:29:30.609 of Sean Richard Sellers. Sellers and his best 00:29:30.609 --> 00:29:32.829 friend Richard Howard had been discussing how 00:29:32.829 --> 00:29:35.289 it would feel to kill someone. Sellers confesses 00:29:35.289 --> 00:29:38.309 during this time to the September 8th, 1985 murder 00:29:38.309 --> 00:29:41.589 of Robert Paul Bauer, a 32 year old Circle K 00:29:41.589 --> 00:29:43.789 convenience store clerk who had refused to sell 00:29:43.789 --> 00:29:46.089 beer to Howard. According to Howard, who was 00:29:46.089 --> 00:29:48.769 present for but did not participate in the murder, 00:29:48.990 --> 00:29:51.509 Sellers wanted to see what it feels like to kill 00:29:51.509 --> 00:29:54.170 somebody. And sorry, I should say Sellers is 00:29:54.170 --> 00:29:57.450 born in 69. This is all happening in 85, so he's 00:29:57.450 --> 00:30:01.140 16 years old. Sellers said he decided to kill 00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:03.920 his mother after a fight over his girlfriend 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:06.059 whom his mother didn't like. He'd served his 00:30:06.059 --> 00:30:08.259 mother several cups of coffee, laid him with 00:30:08.259 --> 00:30:11.019 rat poison, but this didn't work. On March 5th, 00:30:11.019 --> 00:30:14.700 1986 Sellers shot and killed his mother and stepfather 00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:19.099 Vonda and Lee Belafato with a .44 caliber revolver 00:30:19.099 --> 00:30:20.980 while they were asleep in the bedroom of their 00:30:20.980 --> 00:30:23.380 Oklahoma City home. Wearing only underwear to 00:30:23.380 --> 00:30:25.859 limit blood splatter on himself, he first shot 00:30:25.859 --> 00:30:28.480 his stepfather. The shot awoke his mother, whom 00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:31.789 he shot in the face. Sellers tried to disguise 00:30:31.789 --> 00:30:33.710 his guilt by arranging the crime scene to look 00:30:33.710 --> 00:30:35.670 like an intruder had committed the killings. 00:30:35.990 --> 00:30:39.089 Howard testified that after the murders Sellers 00:30:39.089 --> 00:30:40.950 came to his house and said he killed his parents. 00:30:41.130 --> 00:30:43.730 Howard was also initially charged with first 00:30:43.730 --> 00:30:45.670 -degree murder, but the charges were dismissed 00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:47.710 when he received a five -year suspension sentence 00:30:47.710 --> 00:30:50.269 for being an accessory after the fact after agreeing 00:30:50.269 --> 00:30:53.869 to testify against Sellers. So at his trial Sellers 00:30:53.869 --> 00:30:56.269 said he was a practicing Satanist at the time 00:30:56.269 --> 00:30:58.569 of the murder and claimed that demonic possession 00:30:58.569 --> 00:31:02.230 by the demon Ezerate Oh for fuck sakes caused 00:31:02.230 --> 00:31:04.369 him to murder his victims. In later documents 00:31:04.369 --> 00:31:06.710 he claimed to have read the Satanic Bible by 00:31:06.710 --> 00:31:09.529 Anton Levy hundreds of times between the age 00:31:09.529 --> 00:31:11.920 of 15 and 16 when the crime were committed and 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:14.619 in a confession letter written from prison he 00:31:14.619 --> 00:31:16.779 reflected on this period of his life quote I 00:31:16.779 --> 00:31:19.339 got very involved in Satanism I truly thought 00:31:19.339 --> 00:31:21.740 it was an honest way to live and the rituals 00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:24.440 of it would enable me to control my life end 00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:27.019 of quote his attorneys also argued Sellers was 00:31:27.019 --> 00:31:29.779 addicted to the game Dungeons and Dragons although 00:31:29.779 --> 00:31:31.940 Sellers would later write that the game had no 00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:33.819 part in his crimes in that quote using my past 00:31:33.819 --> 00:31:36.200 as a common example of the effects of the game 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:39.680 is either irrational or fanatical end quote sorry 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:43.230 what year was What is this? 85. This is the height 00:31:43.230 --> 00:31:46.710 of the satanic pen. I almost feel like this is 00:31:46.710 --> 00:31:50.369 the lawyers trying to push this angle to say 00:31:50.369 --> 00:31:52.730 he can't be held accountable for it because there's 00:31:52.730 --> 00:31:56.390 all this going on with children. The jury refused 00:31:56.390 --> 00:31:58.529 to consider either claim and Sellers was found 00:31:58.529 --> 00:32:00.930 guilty of multiple homicides and sentenced to 00:32:00.930 --> 00:32:04.130 death in 1986. At the time, Oklahoma law did 00:32:04.130 --> 00:32:06.390 not give juries the option of giving a life sentence 00:32:06.390 --> 00:32:08.329 without the possibility of parole. That choice 00:32:08.329 --> 00:32:11.150 became available the next year. One juror later 00:32:11.150 --> 00:32:13.329 said that the jury feared that Sellers would 00:32:13.329 --> 00:32:16.190 be paroled in 7 to 15 years and that this prison 00:32:16.190 --> 00:32:18.549 term was not lengthy enough. This led the jury 00:32:18.549 --> 00:32:20.990 to vote for a death sentence. However, other 00:32:20.990 --> 00:32:23.390 jurors denied that this was part of their deliberation. 00:32:23.670 --> 00:32:26.089 Now while in jail Sellers became a Christian. 00:32:26.349 --> 00:32:28.910 His friends started a website on his behalf and 00:32:28.910 --> 00:32:31.250 he campaigned for clemency based on his religious 00:32:31.250 --> 00:32:33.990 conversion, age, and involvement in Satanism. 00:32:34.190 --> 00:32:36.569 While on death row, Sellers made numerous appearances 00:32:36.569 --> 00:32:38.950 in the mass media, appearing on Oprah Winfrey, 00:32:39.309 --> 00:32:42.349 on a notorious segment of Geraldo about Satanism, 00:32:42.569 --> 00:32:44.670 when he appeared in documentaries about Satanism 00:32:44.670 --> 00:32:47.690 and serial killers on 48 Hours, MSNBC, and A 00:32:47.690 --> 00:32:50.970 &E Network. Sellers married in prison in February 00:32:50.970 --> 00:32:54.490 of 1995, but the marriage was annulled in 1997. 00:32:55.069 --> 00:32:57.309 Sellers' step -siblings doubted that his conversion 00:32:57.309 --> 00:32:59.930 to Christianity was a sincere one. Of this, many 00:32:59.930 --> 00:33:02.589 surviving family members, only his step -grandfather 00:33:02.589 --> 00:33:04.829 believed his conversion to be sincere. However, 00:33:04.970 --> 00:33:07.890 the prison chaplain believed he had truly converted. 00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:11.490 During his 1999 appeal to the 10th U .S. Circuit 00:33:11.490 --> 00:33:13.410 of Court of Appeal, Sellers contended that he 00:33:13.410 --> 00:33:15.750 had multiple personality disorders. The appellate 00:33:15.750 --> 00:33:18.210 court ruled that there was uncontroverted evidence 00:33:18.210 --> 00:33:20.430 of Sellers' religious conversion that he may 00:33:20.430 --> 00:33:22.609 indeed suffer from multiple personality disorder. 00:33:22.789 --> 00:33:24.930 The panel of judges concluded that while Sellers 00:33:24.930 --> 00:33:26.970 might have been insane at the time of the crime, 00:33:27.150 --> 00:33:29.710 the claim was made too late to be raised on appeal. 00:33:29.930 --> 00:33:32.289 Human Rights Watch condemned this decision to 00:33:32.289 --> 00:33:34.650 quote uphold the sentence on narrow procedural 00:33:34.650 --> 00:33:37.309 grounds despite the acknowledged uncontested 00:33:37.309 --> 00:33:39.849 clinical evidence that Sellers suffers from multiple 00:33:39.849 --> 00:33:42.609 personality disorders and quote adding in its 00:33:42.609 --> 00:33:45.170 letter to Governor Keating that quote no civilized 00:33:45.170 --> 00:33:47.720 society can accept the execution of a who was 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:49.980 a child at the time he committed the crimes and 00:33:49.980 --> 00:33:52.440 who was and remains afflicted with a mental disorder. 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.079 Such an execution offends the most basic principles 00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:58.650 of international justice and morality. Psychiatric 00:33:58.650 --> 00:34:01.009 experts scoffed at Sellers claims, arguing that 00:34:01.009 --> 00:34:03.230 any true mental illness would have been diagnosed 00:34:03.230 --> 00:34:05.529 soon after Sellers' arrest and not seven years 00:34:05.529 --> 00:34:08.449 later. Prison officials also cast doubt on Sellers' 00:34:08.630 --> 00:34:10.829 mental illness by saying they saw Sellers rehearsing 00:34:10.829 --> 00:34:12.809 the evidence of mental illness and receiving 00:34:12.809 --> 00:34:15.070 coaching from his attorney, which is very illegal 00:34:15.070 --> 00:34:18.909 spying on a lawyer with a client. He did appeal 00:34:18.909 --> 00:34:20.949 to the Supreme Court, but the court declined 00:34:20.949 --> 00:34:23.599 this appeal. Sellers' imminent execution brought 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.099 documentation from a wide variety of sources, 00:34:26.139 --> 00:34:28.699 including the European Union Archbishop Desmond 00:34:28.699 --> 00:34:31.260 Tutu, the American Bar Association, and Bianca 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:33.980 Jaeger. Nearly all raised issues about his age 00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:35.800 at the time of the crime, and many argued that 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:38.480 this religious work from prison outweighed the 00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:40.760 state's need to execute him. However, he was 00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:43.079 still executed by lethal injection on February 00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:46.280 4, 1999 at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary in 00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:49.340 McAllister, Oklahoma at 12 .17 a .m. For his 00:34:49.340 --> 00:34:54.150 last meal, he had Chinese food, He began his 00:34:54.150 --> 00:34:56.429 final statement by addressing his step siblings. 00:35:14.569 --> 00:35:17.070 Don't hate all your lives. I love you all." In 00:35:17.070 --> 00:35:18.710 the final minutes before the injection, Sellers 00:35:18.710 --> 00:35:21.130 sang modern Christian music and then loudly said, 00:35:21.269 --> 00:35:23.710 Here I come, Father, I'm coming home, and then 00:35:23.710 --> 00:35:25.429 turned to the ward and said, Let's do it, Gary. 00:35:25.550 --> 00:35:27.860 Let's get it on. Sellers finally saying his last 00:35:27.860 --> 00:35:30.199 words set my spirit free that I may praise thee 00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:32.940 set my spirit free that I may worship thee Sellers 00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:35.559 step -siblings objected to the substance of this 00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:37.880 final remarks that instead of apologizing or 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:39.820 mentioning their mother He only addressed the 00:35:39.820 --> 00:35:42.340 fact they still feel the same. It's very presumptuous 00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:44.679 that he would know how we would feel said his 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.590 stepsister I don't know just the when you get 00:35:47.590 --> 00:35:50.389 to that point in like the death row where they're 00:35:50.389 --> 00:35:52.269 actually getting to the death I don't know. I 00:35:52.269 --> 00:35:55.329 find that really dark in a weird way. I don't 00:35:55.329 --> 00:35:58.269 know how to quite explain it It is especially 00:35:58.269 --> 00:36:01.469 given some of the stuff that they brought up 00:36:01.469 --> 00:36:05.110 which I think is relevant I don't know Everyone 00:36:05.110 --> 00:36:07.590 has their views on stuff like the death penalty 00:36:07.590 --> 00:36:10.039 and stuff, right? Yeah, there's a whole other 00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:12.699 political side of that, like Oklahoma, 16 year 00:36:12.699 --> 00:36:14.760 old, completely disregard the mental health thing 00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:16.800 and be like, well, not for us to say you couldn't 00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:19.179 have had capacity at this point, so just gonna 00:36:19.179 --> 00:36:21.639 have to kill you. Yeah. Yeah, we're too far into 00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:25.719 it now, so I guess you gotta die. An eye for 00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:27.760 an eye. We're gonna move on to the last case 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.519 here, which like I said, I'm curious whether 00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:32.760 or not you can consider this in the same category 00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:35.980 as a possession claim. Interesting you chose 00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:40.719 to include it. Yes. It is a very famous Supreme 00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:43.400 Court of Canada case that you have to read, not 00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:45.719 all criminal law classes, but the criminal law 00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:48.860 class I took in Canada. This came up in the early 00:36:48.860 --> 00:36:54.119 morning of 1947, sorry, May 24th, 1987. We had 00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:58.300 very different times. Same thing. Kenneth Parks. 00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:01.079 the main character of the story. Gets in his 00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:03.800 car, drives 20 kilometers from Pickering, Ontario 00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:06.320 to the house of his in -laws in Scarborough, 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:09.019 Ontario. Enters the house with a key they had 00:37:09.019 --> 00:37:11.780 previously given him and used a tire iron to 00:37:11.780 --> 00:37:13.900 bludgeon his mother -in -law to death. He then 00:37:13.900 --> 00:37:16.500 turns to his father -in -law, attempting unsuccessfully 00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:18.659 to choke him to death. Covered with blood, Parks 00:37:18.659 --> 00:37:22.039 gets back in his car, drives straight to a nearby 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:24.159 police station and confesses, turning himself 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:26.079 in and saying, quote, I think I have just killed 00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:29.480 two people, end quote. At trial, Parks argues 00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:32.900 that he was automatastic and not criminally liable. 00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:35.920 In his defense, a doctor testifies as to his 00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:38.119 mental state at the time of the murder. From 00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:40.019 the doctor's evidence, it was determined that 00:37:40.019 --> 00:37:43.190 the accused was sleepwalking. at the time of 00:37:43.190 --> 00:37:45.230 the incident and he was suffering from a disorder 00:37:45.230 --> 00:37:47.690 of sleep rather than neurological, psychiatric, 00:37:47.829 --> 00:37:51.809 or other illnesses. What? Five neurological experts 00:37:51.809 --> 00:37:54.389 also confirmed that he was sleepwalking during 00:37:54.389 --> 00:37:56.570 the time of the incident. How are they confirming 00:37:56.570 --> 00:37:59.730 this? Sorry, continue your story. Originally, 00:37:59.929 --> 00:38:02.289 he gets acquitted and the issue ends up getting 00:38:02.289 --> 00:38:04.170 all the way to the Supreme Court. What? And the 00:38:04.170 --> 00:38:06.829 question is whether or not the condition of sleepwalking 00:38:06.829 --> 00:38:10.190 can be classified as non -insane automatism or 00:38:10.190 --> 00:38:12.880 should be classified as a disease of the mind 00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:15.880 and warrant a verdict of not guilty for reason 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:18.980 of insanity. See now here's something that would 00:38:18.980 --> 00:38:21.340 be interesting to sit on the jury of because 00:38:21.340 --> 00:38:23.880 what evidence would they have for the doctors 00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:26.539 to weigh that he was in fact sleepwalking? Yeah 00:38:26.539 --> 00:38:30.400 I know but like so many experts that were fully 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.179 able to convince judges all the way to the Supreme 00:38:33.179 --> 00:38:36.590 Court that he was not guilty. Okay, so they would 00:38:36.590 --> 00:38:40.170 have been able to provide some sort of substanciation. 00:38:40.210 --> 00:38:42.630 Must have been convincing enough to do that. 00:38:42.909 --> 00:38:45.969 Now, I may have been able to be convinced if 00:38:45.969 --> 00:38:50.349 it was maybe a part of his routine to have been 00:38:50.349 --> 00:38:53.309 trying to murder people while he was sleepwalking. 00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:56.039 that could that have been the evidence? In which 00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:59.159 case, I would probably say, yeah, okay, like 00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.519 I think you got something here. And this time 00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:03.960 he succeeded. And I can't quite remember the 00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:06.360 evidence behind this, but he had a pattern of 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.000 sleepwalking and doing fairly intricate things. 00:39:09.139 --> 00:39:11.079 However, he had never actually like attacked 00:39:11.079 --> 00:39:14.780 anyone before. and driven a car maybe he did 00:39:14.780 --> 00:39:17.739 drive a car no i think he had driven a car before 00:39:17.739 --> 00:39:22.059 what yeah and you know what from my sleepwalking 00:39:22.059 --> 00:39:24.880 like maybe you could drive a car because you're 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.800 just like dreaming i don't feel like i would 00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:31.019 drive a car good though because you're not using 00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:34.119 your rational mind in which case i could see 00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:40.619 maybe murder but he drove 20 kilometers Take 00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:44.440 that out. Don't let me admit to it. Okay. 20 00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:47.670 kilometers. Yeah. No, I don't believe it. Like 00:39:47.670 --> 00:39:50.769 that's a good half hour drive in like a population 00:39:50.769 --> 00:39:53.329 dense part of Canada. But you're on autopilot. 00:39:53.510 --> 00:39:56.150 No, I don't believe it. I don't believe it because 00:39:56.150 --> 00:39:59.809 I sleepwalk. Nothing for sleepwalking. You're 00:39:59.809 --> 00:40:02.730 dreaming. You're in a dream. Like it's just your 00:40:02.730 --> 00:40:05.610 body not shutting off during that. So it's not 00:40:05.610 --> 00:40:08.769 rational. Like you don't do normal everyday things. 00:40:08.849 --> 00:40:11.050 Like you don't get in the car and drive to work. 00:40:11.150 --> 00:40:13.489 You don't get in the car and go and murder your 00:40:13.489 --> 00:40:15.610 in -laws. Like that's not, I mean, I haven't 00:40:15.610 --> 00:40:17.869 gotten in the car. I have gone outside in the 00:40:17.869 --> 00:40:20.510 middle of winter though and like I wouldn't otherwise 00:40:20.510 --> 00:40:24.409 Yeah, no, I wouldn't otherwise go outside in 00:40:24.409 --> 00:40:28.150 the middle of winter in my pajamas It's not rational 00:40:28.150 --> 00:40:30.889 thinking not that murdering someone is but Chelsea 00:40:30.889 --> 00:40:33.329 this goes to the Supreme Court of Canada and 00:40:33.329 --> 00:40:35.730 they uphold the acquittal They say that there's 00:40:35.730 --> 00:40:38.409 evidence presented that no has reasonable doubt 00:40:38.409 --> 00:40:41.550 about whether parks acted voluntarily Chief Justice 00:40:41.550 --> 00:40:44.190 of the time Antonio LaMare held that the trial 00:40:44.190 --> 00:40:46.730 judge was correct and his analysis of the evidence 00:40:46.730 --> 00:40:49.090 and his decision not to characterize sleepwalking 00:40:49.090 --> 00:40:51.989 as a mental disorder. And this was agreed to 00:40:51.989 --> 00:40:55.469 by many of the judges who also added in the characterization 00:40:55.469 --> 00:40:57.630 of the evidence, they agreed, but looked further 00:40:57.630 --> 00:40:59.670 into the public policy of the defense. You know, 00:40:59.670 --> 00:41:01.349 it's not worth getting into the nitpicky details. 00:41:01.489 --> 00:41:03.909 We're not a legal podcast, so I can just kind 00:41:03.909 --> 00:41:06.829 of end it there. But I am curious. I'm very curious. 00:41:06.909 --> 00:41:09.969 I don't know. I intuitively felt this fell into 00:41:09.969 --> 00:41:12.590 the criminal cases that kind of had a possession 00:41:12.590 --> 00:41:16.000 defense. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I was talking 00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:17.980 to a lawyer friend who got that at me and said 00:41:17.980 --> 00:41:19.980 this is a categorically different thing and I'm 00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:22.400 like, it's not really though. No, I don't think 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.860 it is. I think it's very adjacent. I would agree 00:41:25.860 --> 00:41:29.920 with you there having not have any lawyer law. 00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:31.820 I think it might be because we've talked about 00:41:31.820 --> 00:41:34.280 old Hagues before and that could be a type of 00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:36.260 possession of sleepwalking and murder people. 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:40.079 I would be intrigued to know the evidence here. 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:43.019 What kind of evidence they would have to say 00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:45.760 That everybody seems to agree. Oh, yeah, there's 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:48.599 a good chance he actually didn't. This is definitely 00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:52.559 sleepwalking and how you would prove that it 00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:54.940 like it would have to be without a doubt, right? 00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:57.920 But that's what was happening for him to know. 00:41:58.460 --> 00:42:00.820 So he didn't end up going to jail and it's remember 00:42:00.820 --> 00:42:02.880 you need to be found guilty beyond a reasonable 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.619 doubt. So the evidence was at least enough to 00:42:05.619 --> 00:42:10.380 cast doubt. Oh, that you did not have capacity. 00:42:10.570 --> 00:42:14.349 Okay, yeah, huh. So it's not like oh, yeah fully 00:42:14.349 --> 00:42:16.650 a hundred percent. This is what happened It's 00:42:16.650 --> 00:42:19.050 like yeah, the likelihood of it is more likely 00:42:19.050 --> 00:42:21.469 see that's another thing that would get me on 00:42:21.469 --> 00:42:24.869 a jury I feel like that without reason like the 00:42:24.869 --> 00:42:27.250 reasonable doubt thing I feel like I would always 00:42:27.250 --> 00:42:29.590 be second -guessing myself as well. So I feel 00:42:29.590 --> 00:42:32.539 like I'd always like what yeah I don't know. 00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:34.519 With what we talk about on this podcast, what's 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:36.820 reasonable seems different than the average person 00:42:36.820 --> 00:42:39.780 at this point. It's true. And if I ever get called 00:42:39.780 --> 00:42:41.739 a jury duty, I'm just going to tell them about 00:42:41.739 --> 00:42:46.519 this episode. Look, it's hard to explain. Just 00:42:46.519 --> 00:42:48.880 listen to this episode that's an hour long. You'll 00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:50.380 get it. Just listen to the whole thing. Like 00:42:50.380 --> 00:42:53.699 us, follow us, share it if you like it. The other 00:42:53.699 --> 00:42:56.239 thing is I listen to true crime all the time. 00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:58.159 I'll be listening to something. I'm like, they 00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:00.280 fucking did it. And then the next second I'm 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:02.929 like, they didn't do it. And I just can't like 00:43:02.929 --> 00:43:05.750 I would do the same thing if I sat on a jury, 00:43:05.769 --> 00:43:08.190 right about like a case like this I'd be like, 00:43:08.329 --> 00:43:10.769 I don't fucking know one second. I'd be like, 00:43:10.769 --> 00:43:13.789 oh he totally was sleepwalking and the next second 00:43:13.789 --> 00:43:16.110 I'd be like, there's no way he was sleepwalking 00:43:16.110 --> 00:43:22.329 It's a tough thing listening to true crime Well 00:43:22.329 --> 00:43:24.130 yeah Chelsea, those are the cases I could find 00:43:24.130 --> 00:43:27.489 that are possession and possession adjacent defenses. 00:43:28.030 --> 00:43:31.230 It turns out if you want it to work out, probably 00:43:31.230 --> 00:43:34.849 go with the adjacent or your lawyer might be 00:43:34.849 --> 00:43:37.070 at all upset and just like completely screw up 00:43:37.070 --> 00:43:41.269 the case. It was the most successful of the night 00:43:41.269 --> 00:43:50.059 and super Halloweeny too. And with that, I have 00:43:50.059 --> 00:43:51.820 been Taylor, here with Chelsea. We are Journey 00:43:51.820 --> 00:43:53.440 to the Fringe. Thank you all for listening. We'll 00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:57.300 see you next week. Goodbye. Thank you for listening 00:43:57.300 --> 00:43:59.920 to Journey to the Fringe. If you have liked what 00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:03.679 you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, 00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:07.039 or follow, depending on what. venue you are listening 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:09.900 to us through. Also, please, if possible, leave 00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:13.039 a five -star review, as that really helps us 00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:15.659 in the algorithms. Should you wish to interact 00:44:15.659 --> 00:44:18.400 with us, please check us out on your social media 00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:21.440 of choice. I bet you we are there. And if you 00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:23.519 really want to communicate with us and give us 00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:25.960 ideas for new episodes or tell us that we're 00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:28.199 wrong and terrible, either way, please send us 00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:32.119 an email at journeytothefringe at gmail .com. 00:44:32.219 --> 00:44:34.179 For now, I'll see you in the next episode.