WEBVTT

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From the unexplained to the mundane, come join

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us on a journey to the fringe. Hello and welcome

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to Journey to the Fringe, where we say what others

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won't. Chelsea, are you ready for it? Yeah. I

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do. That's what this is that we're doing. It's

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a do. You know, like the idle wasting of time,

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not moving to the topic or not moving it forward?

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That's what this is. Nobody says it, but we're

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gonna tell ya. That's all. Now, without further

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ado, we are your podcast hosts, Taylor and Chelsea,

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here today reliving the past with an oldie but

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a goodie that really deserves every record because

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sometimes we're not great with the microphones

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and audio and all the things that go along with

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being a podcaster, but we do make good episodes.

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So we had to relive an old one from the past,

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so Chelsea? Today, we are going to get back on

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our topic of that time that the head of the UN

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was assassinated. Oh, yeah, I forgot what when

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you're redoing. I don't think you actually remember

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most of this episode. It was kind of a weird

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outside of our normal like scope episode. It

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was. There's also apparently I did do some free

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hand while we were doing it. So I had to go look

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up a few things while I was getting the script

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ready. But this is a fun episode. I think it

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helps us establish. There's so many conspiracy

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theories about the UN. what it's trying to push

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on everybody that I think it's important to actually

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look at what has happened to the UN and how they

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don't actually have as much power as people think.

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Specifically how powers have actually pushed

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them around in the past quite a lot. Now that

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you say that I'm not sure exactly what they do.

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I don't really hear from them ever. They pretend

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to bring unity. You hear about it a lot with

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regards to Israel and its treatment of Gaza and

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Palestinians. Basically they always have a vote.

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The entire world's on one side and the US and

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maybe one or two of its allies in Israel are

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on the other and they just veto everything. Yeah.

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Fairly ineffective. They do have a few arms that

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do well. UNESCO. I know them. They do cultural

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things. Children's Emergency Fund, UNICEF, does

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some good work. Oh yeah, I know them too. They

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have quite a few different arms that actually

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do quite a bit of good things, but overall it

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was meant to be world unity and give direction

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and it really hasn't been able to do that in

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a long time. time and hey maybe through learning

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about its history we can learn about what it

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was meant to be and how it's falling short. Let's

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learn about it, it being your episode. Well sure

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I guess that's one way to put it. Now, you always

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have to start an episode where you're talking

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about the UN. You gotta start it before the UN

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was a thing, because the UN's not a thing until

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after two fairly significant whores, and it's

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not the first attempt at a UN -like thing. Now,

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the first one that really came about, Chelsea,

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do you know what it is? The first UN thing? Yeah,

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prior to it. No. Woodrow Wilson. It's called

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a paper tiger. Okay. Well, it's the League of

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Nations. Okay. Oh, right, yeah, I knew this from

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the first episode. And this came after World

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War I. It was born out of the destruction and

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disillusionment arising from World War I, and

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it was the most ambitious attempt that had ever

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been made to construct a peaceful global order.

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It was rooted in a comprehensive liberal critique

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of the pre -war international system, which was

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widely believed to have been the cause of the

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carnage of World War I. Which was really, yeah.

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The pre -war international system was a bunch

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of brothers with Habsburg chins and hemophilia

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that turned their spat into millions and millions

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of people dying in trenches and of disease. So

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it makes a lot of sense to think that that's

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the issue. Yeah. Now the idea of the League was

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to eliminate four flaws of the old European state.

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In place of monarchical family spats, a world

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of independent nation -states was emerging and

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should, free of outside interference. The secret

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diplomacy of the old order would be replaced

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by the open discussion and resolution of disputes.

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The military alliance blocs would be replaced

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by a system of collective guarantees of security.

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An agreed disarmament would prevent the recurrence

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of the kind of arms races that had racked up

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international tensions in the pre -war decade.

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There was a previous Congress system in which

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the European great powers held occasional summit

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meetings to discuss issues they found urgent.

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The surviving victorious great powers at the

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end of the Great War, Britain and France, would

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have preferred to go no further than regularizing

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the old Congress system. But Woodrow Wilson had

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different ideas, the president of the US at the

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time. He pushed forward the creation of a more

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comprehensive global organization, which would

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include all independent states and in which even

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the smallest state would have a voice. He would

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really be pushing for that too because they're

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not part of the old world hierarchy at that time,

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having been across the pond and not really on

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anybody's mind outside of the revolution prior

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to that. Unfortunately, the way Wilson was thinking

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about the way that self -determination will work

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in the real world and about getting his idea

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for a community of power off the ground, it remained

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vague. Partly this was to avoid alarming US isolation

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But in any case... When the League Covenant was

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agreed at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919,

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the US Senate refused to ratify it. How the League

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would have worked with American anticipation

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remains one of the great what -ifs of modern

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history. As it was, the direction of the system

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was left in the hands of states, primarily Britain

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and France, who wanted that other system, whose

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altruism was questionable and whose economic

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resources had been crippled by the war. Yet,

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the League of Nations did work surprisingly well

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for about a decade, which, you know, if you raise

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a child to ten year - By December of 1920, 48

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states had signed the League Covenant pledging

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to work together to eliminate aggression between

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the countries. A series of disputes between Germany

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and Poland over Upper Silesia, between Italy

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and Greece, and between Greece and Bulgaria were

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resolved under its auspices. These were the kinds

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of conflicts that triggered World War I, so good

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for them. Yeah, so they did do some good things.

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I was just wondering, what did they do? They

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did that. Yeah, they did that, but not major

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powers, just like smaller powers in the world

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at that time, and Europe still. The proliferation

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of League activity, however, carried risks. As

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one of its founders, Lloyd George, put it, quote,

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it had weak links spreading everywhere, no grip

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anywhere, end quote. Grip ultimately meant the

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capacity to use force. When the crucial concept

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of collective security was put to the acid test

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in the 1930s, it dissolved. Once big power started

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to challenge the status quo, as Japan did in

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Manchuria, the League found it practically impossible

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to reach a clear verdict on who was guilty of

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aggression. Which, if you remember that story,

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from what episode was that in where we covered

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the Manchuria bombings? Japan. You can't remember,

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but we did. Right, right, the history of Japan.

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Yeah. I forgot we did a three -part series on

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that. We did. That was fun. Japan's pretty horrible.

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Or, still more disastrously, in the case of Italian

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pressure on Abyssinia, the guilt was clear enough

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but the key powers Britain and France were unwilling

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to antagonize the guilty party because of their

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wider strategic fears. Also maybe a little bit

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of racism in there because Abyssinia is an African

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country. A failed attempt to impose an oil embargo

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on Italy demonstrated that any credible system

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of economic sanctions was far away. and between

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the humiliation of seeing one of its members,

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Austria, taken over by Germany in 1938 without

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even a formal protest, and the absurdity of expelling

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the USSR after the outbreak of World War II in

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1939, an event that neither the USSR nor the

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League were involved in. After this, the League

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pretty much ceases while World War II happens.

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Oh, okay. Now, World War II happens. People believe

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it's probably a good idea to have some sort of

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thing like the League of Nations around once

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World War II ends. And in 1945, many nations

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are in ruins and the world wanted peace. Representatives

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of 50 countries gathered at the United Nations

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Conference on International Organization in San

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Francisco. On April 25, 1945, for two months,

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they proceeded to draft and then sign the UN

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Charter, which created a new international organization,

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United Nations Witches. was hoped would prevent

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another world war like the one they had just

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lived through. And hey, to the UN's credit, there

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hasn't been another world war since. I was just

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gonna say, have they been successful? Yes. I

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think so. For the most part. Although there were

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a lot of close calls like the Korean War in the

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1950s. Yeah. Four months after the San Francisco

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Conference ended, on October 24th, 1945, the

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United Nations officially began, when it came

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into existence after its charter had been ratified

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by China, France, the Soviet Union, the United

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Kingdom, and the United States, the five major

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powers of the UN. As of April 20th, 1946, the

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League of Nations ceased to exist having handed

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over all of its assets to the UN and having granted

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the new UN Secretary full control of its libraries

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and archives. And here's just a brief kind of

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explanation of the UN from the UN. The structure

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of the United Nations was to give a much stronger

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position to the traditional great powers through

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the UN Security Council. The most significant

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thing about its creation perhaps is that this

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time the USA did not back away. A significant

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number of the old League's aims and methods were

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transmitted into the UN in 1945. Among these

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were not only such low -key but effective institutions

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as the International Court and the International

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Labour Organization, but also the working assumption

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of the Secretary and some key operations including

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those that would soon come to be called peacekeeping

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operations. The UN may have almost stumbled sideways

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into its peacekeeping role, but the motive and

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sustaining force in the process was the survival

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and the strengthening of the expectations of

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international involvement in the preservation

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of global security. Gradually this came to include

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the defense of human rights as well as the resolution

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of territorial conflict. The UN's first attempt

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to resolve a serious conflict in Palestine in

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47 -48 was unsuccessful, even disastrous. It

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failed to implement its own partition plan and

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its special mediator was assassinated. Other

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UN organizations had a shorter but more spectacular

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life, notably the operation in Congo. We're going

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to talk about that, which ends up being a big

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part of this episode, from 1960 -64, which prefigured

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the alarming future for to states that were dissolving

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into civil war. In the Congo, the UN found itself

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using military force against Katangan rebels

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to preserve the unity of the state of Congo,

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a departure from the principle of strict neutrality

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which has usually been thought vital to the success

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of its peacekeeping missions. Dealing with such

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internal conflict was a far more ambitious and

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demanding task than the traditional role of assisting

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consenting states to observe ceasefires. In effect,

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it showed the UN might need to take governmental

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responsibilities in some situations. Now, The

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UN, as you may have guessed, is still around.

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It has 193 member states. Its purpose is to maintain

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international peace and security, to promote

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human rights, and to provide a forum for discussion

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of global issues. United Nations Systems of Organization

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is comprised of main organ specialized agencies,

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programs and funds, research and training institutes,

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and a variety of affiliated and related bodies.

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The main organs are the General Assembly, the

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Security Council, the Economic and Social Council,

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the Trusteeship Council, the International Court

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of Justice, and the UN Secretariat. The Charter

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of the UN defines the tasks and functions of

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each organ. The Secretary General is the Chief

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Administrative Officer of the UN and is elected

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by the General Assembly. The organization is

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financed by assessed and voluntary contributions

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from its member states. Just to kind of give

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you an idea of how it functions today. Does that

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give you a bit of an overview, Chelsea, I guess

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of the whole situation with global attempts to

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work together? I think so, yeah. I think I have

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a general idea of it and their goals. Okay good,

00:11:39.940 --> 00:11:41.940
because now we're going to focus more on the

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man at hand that we're going to be talking about,

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Dag Hammarskjöld. Now the development towards

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taking responsibility in countries at risk of

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disintegration was due to a dramatic increase

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in the prestige and initiative of the U .S. Secretary

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General. This was particularly true at the time

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when the position was held by the charismatic

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Dag Hammarskjöld. Mr. Hammarskjöld was a Swedish

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economist and diplomat who served as the second

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Secretary General of the United Nations. As of

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2023, he remains the youngest person to have

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ever held the post, having been only 47 when

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he was appointed. He was the son of Hjalmar Hammerskjöld,

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who served as Prime Minister of Sweden from 1914

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to 1917. Hammerskjöld was and remains well regarded

00:12:22.220 --> 00:12:25.240
internationally as a capable diplomat and administrator,

00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:28.379
and his efforts to resolve various global crises

00:12:28.379 --> 00:12:30.919
led to him being the only posthumous recipient

00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:33.799
of the Nobel Peace Prize. He is considered to

00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:36.759
be one of the two best UN Secretaries General.

00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:39.220
and his appointment has been hailed as one of

00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:41.320
the most notable successes of the organization.

00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:44.840
US President JFK called Hammerskjöld the greatest

00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:48.220
statesman of our century. Ow. Yeah, he's got

00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:51.139
fairly good credentials behind him. He gets appointed

00:12:51.139 --> 00:12:54.610
to this role in 1953. Immediately following the

00:12:54.610 --> 00:12:56.809
assumption of the Secretariat, Hammerskjold attempted

00:12:56.809 --> 00:12:58.850
to establish good rapport with his staff. He

00:12:58.850 --> 00:13:01.509
made a point of visiting every UN department

00:13:01.509 --> 00:13:03.750
to shake hands with as many workers as possible,

00:13:03.929 --> 00:13:06.110
eating in the cafeteria as often as possible,

00:13:06.230 --> 00:13:08.549
and relinquishing the Secretary General's private

00:13:08.549 --> 00:13:11.110
elevator for general use. Oh, what a good guy.

00:13:11.309 --> 00:13:13.289
Apparently kind of liked to be around people

00:13:13.289 --> 00:13:15.950
and not just held above them, so kind of what

00:13:15.950 --> 00:13:17.549
you expect from a leader, I hope? I've never

00:13:17.549 --> 00:13:20.970
even heard of a separate elevator for outside

00:13:20.970 --> 00:13:24.409
of the regular folks. He began his term by establishing

00:13:24.409 --> 00:13:27.149
his own secretariat of 4 ,000 administrators

00:13:27.149 --> 00:13:29.090
and setting up regulations that defined their

00:13:29.090 --> 00:13:31.629
responsibilities. He was also actively engaged

00:13:31.629 --> 00:13:34.350
in small projects relating to the UN, the working

00:13:34.350 --> 00:13:36.509
environment. For example, he spearheaded the

00:13:36.509 --> 00:13:39.110
building of a meditation room at the UN headquarters

00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:41.230
where people can withdraw into themselves in

00:13:41.230 --> 00:13:43.289
silence regardless of their faith, creed, or

00:13:43.289 --> 00:13:45.710
religion. Keep in mind, again, this is the 50s,

00:13:45.730 --> 00:13:48.289
so fairly ahead of his time. During his term,

00:13:48.470 --> 00:13:50.250
Hammerskjöld tried to improve relations between

00:13:50.250 --> 00:13:52.320
Israel and the Arab states. Other highlights

00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:55.080
included in 1955 a visit to China to negotiate

00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.259
the release of 11 captured U .S. pilots who had

00:13:57.259 --> 00:14:00.460
been serving in the Korean War, the 1956 establishment

00:14:00.460 --> 00:14:03.200
of the United Nations Emergency Force, and its

00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:06.820
intervention in the 1956 Suez Crisis, which I

00:14:06.820 --> 00:14:09.200
didn't look into, I just think it's easy enough

00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:11.919
to put in there. In 60, the newly independent

00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:15.120
Congo asked for UN aid in defusing the Congo

00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.179
Crisis. Hamasco made four trips to the Congo,

00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.379
but his efforts towards the decolonization of

00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:21.600
Africa were considered insufficient by the Soviet

00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:23.899
Union. We'll get back to that in a bit here.

00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:26.360
I'll take your word. In September of 1960, the

00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:28.600
Soviet government announced his decision to send

00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:30.840
a UN emergency force to keep the peace. They

00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:32.759
demanded his resignation and the replacement

00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:35.559
of the Office of Secretary General by a three

00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.580
-man directorate with a built -in veto, the Troika,

00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.159
they called it. The objective was citing the

00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.019
memoirs of Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev to,

00:14:44.019 --> 00:14:46.059
quote, equally represent interests of three groups

00:14:46.059 --> 00:14:48.299
of countries, capitalist, socialist, and recently

00:14:48.299 --> 00:14:50.070
independent. So they didn't like the idea of

00:14:50.070 --> 00:14:52.149
just one person being in charge of it here in

00:14:52.149 --> 00:14:55.809
just this one situation in the in the UN in general.

00:14:56.129 --> 00:14:58.750
They didn't like the idea of one person being

00:14:58.750 --> 00:15:00.590
in charge of it because they generally would

00:15:00.590 --> 00:15:03.029
have one group's interest above all. So there

00:15:03.029 --> 00:15:04.789
should be one who's looking out for all interests.

00:15:05.070 --> 00:15:08.669
I get it. And then is this because of him going

00:15:08.669 --> 00:15:12.250
to the Congo by himself? This is happening at

00:15:12.250 --> 00:15:14.710
the same time. It's kind of something that just

00:15:14.710 --> 00:15:17.610
springs from it. And the Soviet Union in this

00:15:17.610 --> 00:15:20.909
situation is pro -decolonization. There could

00:15:20.909 --> 00:15:23.529
be several reasons for it. One of them is that

00:15:23.529 --> 00:15:25.950
the colonization of Africa was inherently exploitive

00:15:25.950 --> 00:15:28.549
for capitalist purposes. People might just say

00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:30.850
they were butthurt that they missed out on colonizing.

00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:33.919
In any event, they are ethically on the correct

00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:36.799
side, whether or not it's for ethical reasons.

00:15:37.340 --> 00:15:39.759
So you might ask yourself, what is the Congo

00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.419
Crisis? Yeah, I was also thinking that. I should

00:15:42.419 --> 00:15:44.659
have said it out loud, but can you please tell

00:15:44.659 --> 00:15:48.799
us now, please? The Congo was one of the parts

00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:50.960
of Africa that was colonized. It was colonized

00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:53.600
by Belgium. Particularly, it was a colony held

00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.419
by King Leopold II. If you want extensive history

00:15:57.419 --> 00:15:59.519
on what happened there, go listen to Behind the

00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:03.639
Bastards. part series on Leopold II and his exploitation

00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:06.419
of Congo. If not, here's the absolute comments

00:16:06.419 --> 00:16:08.620
as I can give them to you. Leopold II wanted

00:16:08.620 --> 00:16:10.879
to exploit the Congo for its natural resources

00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:13.100
as much as possible, particularly what was there

00:16:13.100 --> 00:16:15.220
was rubber, and he knew that he had a monopoly

00:16:15.220 --> 00:16:17.399
on it, but he wouldn't for long, so he had to

00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:20.000
get it out of there as fast as possible. Congolese

00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.200
people were forced to meet impossible rubber

00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.720
quotas under the threat of violence leading to

00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.679
widespread suffering. These threats of violence

00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:31.009
were If you don't meet your rubber quota, we

00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:34.529
are going to cut your kid's hand off. If you

00:16:34.529 --> 00:16:36.309
do it again, we're going to cut their other hand

00:16:36.309 --> 00:16:37.929
off. If you do it again, we're going to kill

00:16:37.929 --> 00:16:40.799
them. Oh no, I remember this story. Yeah. They

00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.059
established a private army that used extreme

00:16:43.059 --> 00:16:45.480
violence, including mutilation and executions,

00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:47.480
including the cutting off of hands, ears, and

00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:49.779
feet. These private armies were given a set number

00:16:49.779 --> 00:16:51.879
of bullets. Basically, they're given each time

00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:53.419
they shot a bullet. It was a part of the body

00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:55.419
that had to show that they used it for a good

00:16:55.419 --> 00:16:57.539
purpose. So if they used these bullets for, say,

00:16:57.820 --> 00:17:00.200
hunting in the jungle, they would go butcher

00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.700
somebody with a machete to show that they used

00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:04.700
the bullet on that so they could get more bullets.

00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:07.529
Like, it is super fucked up. Yeah, no kidding.

00:17:07.789 --> 00:17:09.890
This brutal exploitation combined with famine,

00:17:10.269 --> 00:17:12.490
disease, and forced displacement led to a catastrophic

00:17:12.490 --> 00:17:15.349
decline in the Congolese population over Leopold's

00:17:15.349 --> 00:17:18.369
reign. Some estimates suggest that up to 10 million

00:17:18.369 --> 00:17:21.009
Congolese people died during Leopold's rule.

00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:25.049
That was between the 1890s and 1908. So 10 million

00:17:25.049 --> 00:17:28.309
people in the middle of Africa died because of

00:17:28.309 --> 00:17:30.750
what happened there with the colonization. But

00:17:30.750 --> 00:17:33.009
nobody knows the exact numbers. They are hotly

00:17:33.009 --> 00:17:35.190
debated. Traditional societies and cultures were

00:17:35.190 --> 00:17:37.049
dismantled, and local populations were subjected

00:17:37.049 --> 00:17:39.490
to forced assimilation and exploitation. Congolese

00:17:39.490 --> 00:17:41.210
people were treated as property with no rights

00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:43.190
or freedoms. Women and children were particularly

00:17:43.190 --> 00:17:45.309
vulnerable to abuse, including sexual violence.

00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:47.630
Reports of these atrocities by activists like

00:17:47.630 --> 00:17:50.250
Edmund Dean Morrill and Roger Casement led to

00:17:50.250 --> 00:17:52.789
international condemnation. And in 1908, Leopold

00:17:52.789 --> 00:17:55.210
was forced to cede the control of Congo to the

00:17:55.210 --> 00:17:58.009
Belgian state, which was not perfect, but it's

00:17:58.009 --> 00:18:00.990
at least better than what he was doing. 1908

00:18:00.990 --> 00:18:04.630
to 1960, Belgium's ruling it, Congo wants to

00:18:04.630 --> 00:18:07.329
be its own independent state. That's this yearning

00:18:07.329 --> 00:18:09.990
from post -World War II around the world that

00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:12.670
people have a right to self -determination, which

00:18:12.670 --> 00:18:15.849
Congo finally gets in June of 1960. However,

00:18:16.089 --> 00:18:18.529
this new country, the country of Congo... is

00:18:18.529 --> 00:18:20.829
immediately descended into a political chaos

00:18:20.829 --> 00:18:24.130
which is known as the Congo Crisis. On July 11th

00:18:24.130 --> 00:18:26.170
of 1960, less than two weeks after the country

00:18:26.170 --> 00:18:28.529
formally gained independence, a politician named

00:18:28.529 --> 00:18:31.190
Moïse Tishombe declared that the southernmost

00:18:31.190 --> 00:18:33.190
province of the Congo was an independent nation

00:18:33.190 --> 00:18:36.549
known as the state of Katanga. Katanga is the

00:18:36.549 --> 00:18:39.930
copper belt and a very lucrative mining operation

00:18:39.930 --> 00:18:42.970
was located there and it was the wealthiest province

00:18:42.970 --> 00:18:45.160
of the Congo. The Belgians, French and British

00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:47.819
wanted influence in this wealthy region and they

00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:50.240
supported Katanga's movement in practice, if

00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:52.299
not in name, because they couldn't be attached

00:18:52.299 --> 00:18:54.660
to it because Europe technically was hands -off

00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:57.519
at this time. Now despite UN regulations forbidding

00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.299
countries from directly supporting the secessionists

00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:02.579
in Congo, members of the European Armed Forces

00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:05.759
became hired mercenaries in Katanga's army. This

00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:09.079
is in direct conflict with Patrice Lumumba, who

00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:10.640
was the Prime Minister of Congo at the time.

00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:14.460
He appealed to the UN for forces to end the secessionist

00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:18.539
movement of Tishange. The UN initially refuses

00:19:18.539 --> 00:19:20.799
this, considering the rebellion an internal issue.

00:19:21.019 --> 00:19:23.740
Patrice Lumumba had managed to acquire Soviet

00:19:23.740 --> 00:19:26.759
weapons for the Congolese army before he was

00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.859
deposed as Prime Minister by Mobutu Sese Seko

00:19:29.859 --> 00:19:33.380
in November of 1960 and killed in early 1961.

00:19:33.579 --> 00:19:36.279
This led the UN to pass Resolution 161 which

00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:39.599
authorized the UN force to take quote all appropriate

00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:41.660
measures and quote to prevent civil war in the

00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:43.619
Congo. Essentially they authorized the UN to

00:19:43.619 --> 00:19:45.920
take offensive measures against the Katongan

00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.160
state. The conflict came to a close in January

00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:51.779
of 1963 after the UN and US forces over during

00:19:51.779 --> 00:20:00.099
this time the UN sent nearly 20 ,000 strong peacekeeping

00:20:00.099 --> 00:20:03.000
forces to restore order in the Congo Kinshasa

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:06.430
region. Hammerskjöld's refusal to place peacekeepers

00:20:06.430 --> 00:20:09.109
in the service of Lumumba's constitutionally

00:20:09.109 --> 00:20:11.369
elected government provoked a strong reaction

00:20:11.369 --> 00:20:14.410
of disapproval from the Soviets. In February

00:20:14.410 --> 00:20:17.130
of 1961, the UN authorized the peacekeeping forces

00:20:17.130 --> 00:20:19.569
to use military force to prevent the civil war.

00:20:19.650 --> 00:20:22.009
In the Blue Helmets' attack on Katanga caused

00:20:22.009 --> 00:20:25.109
Tashambe to flee to Zambia, Hammerskjöld's erratic

00:20:25.109 --> 00:20:27.789
attitude in not providing support to Lumumba's

00:20:27.789 --> 00:20:29.609
government, which had been elected by popular

00:20:29.609 --> 00:20:32.269
vote, drew severe criticism among non -aligned

00:20:32.269 --> 00:20:34.589
countries and communist and socialist countries

00:20:34.589 --> 00:20:36.809
and in the end his actions were supported only

00:20:36.809 --> 00:20:39.390
by the United Nations and strangely enough Belgium.

00:20:39.670 --> 00:20:42.329
This is going on this ends up getting dealt with

00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:46.509
and the Congo of course famously very prosperous

00:20:46.509 --> 00:20:48.869
after this all took place. It's one of the most

00:20:48.869 --> 00:20:51.269
prosperous nations on earth. I may be mixing

00:20:51.269 --> 00:20:54.109
it up with the African nation from the Marvel

00:20:54.109 --> 00:20:56.849
comics though. That's over my head unfortunately.

00:20:57.150 --> 00:20:59.720
Okay. I don't know what that means. But while

00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:03.140
this is all going on, September 18th, 1961, Hammerskjöld

00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:05.619
was en route to negotiate a ceasefire between

00:21:05.619 --> 00:21:07.960
the United Nations Operation the Congo Forces

00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.490
and Katongi's troops under Moise Tashambe. Okay,

00:21:11.490 --> 00:21:14.630
hold on. I have a question. I thought that other

00:21:14.630 --> 00:21:17.970
countries didn't like him going in on his own.

00:21:18.009 --> 00:21:20.670
They wanted other people to be represented. Oh,

00:21:20.670 --> 00:21:23.369
do you mean the Soviets? Yeah. They never quite

00:21:23.369 --> 00:21:25.589
liked how the UN was set up. Again, they said

00:21:25.589 --> 00:21:27.349
that there should be three people that headed

00:21:27.349 --> 00:21:30.589
up called the Troika, which is a group that represents

00:21:30.589 --> 00:21:32.730
the capitalists, a group that represents the

00:21:32.730 --> 00:21:34.549
socialists and the group that represents the

00:21:34.549 --> 00:21:36.809
unaligned. That doesn't happen. It never happens

00:21:36.809 --> 00:21:39.549
in the UN. So this guy's still here. So he's

00:21:39.549 --> 00:21:41.690
still ahead of us. Yeah, nothing changes, it

00:21:41.690 --> 00:21:46.190
never does. On December 18th, 1961, Amherst Guild

00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:48.009
was en route to negotiate a ceasefire between

00:21:48.009 --> 00:21:50.589
the U .N. Operation and the Congo forces and

00:21:50.589 --> 00:21:53.900
Katongi's troops under Moise Deshambé. His Douglas

00:21:53.900 --> 00:21:58.420
D6 airliner, SABDY, crashed near Nidola, northern

00:21:58.420 --> 00:22:01.539
Rhodesia, which is now Zambia. Hammerskjöld perished

00:22:01.539 --> 00:22:04.220
as a result of this crash, as did all the 15

00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:07.019
other passengers. Hammerskjöld's death set off

00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:09.599
a succession crisis at the UN, and as there was

00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.559
no line of succession and the Security Council

00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:15.460
had to vote on its successor. A 1962 Rhodesian

00:22:15.460 --> 00:22:18.779
inquiry concluded that pilot error was to blame.

00:22:19.099 --> 00:22:22.039
While... A later UN investigation could not determine

00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:24.079
the cause of the crash. A CIA report claimed

00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:27.940
the KGB was responsible. So as is going on, nobody

00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:29.740
knows what happened to the plane. There's gonna

00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:32.700
be a lot of accusations thrown out there. The

00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:35.579
day after the crash, former US president Harry

00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:38.480
Truman commented that Hammerskjöld quote was

00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:41.019
on the point of getting something done when they

00:22:41.019 --> 00:22:43.940
killed him. Notice that I said when they killed

00:22:43.940 --> 00:22:48.619
him. In 1998, documents surfaced suggesting CIA,

00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.799
MI6, and or Belgian mining interests involvement

00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:54.619
via a South African paramilitary organization.

00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:56.819
The information was contained in a file from

00:22:56.819 --> 00:22:59.019
the South African National Intelligence Agency

00:22:59.019 --> 00:23:01.559
turned to the South African Truth and Reconciliation

00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:04.240
Commission in relation to the 1993 assassination

00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:06.720
of Chris Hany, leader of the South African Communist

00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.460
Party. These documents included an alleged plot

00:23:09.460 --> 00:23:11.799
to remove Hammerskjöld and contained a supposed

00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.839
statement from CIA Director Alan Dulles that,

00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:17.500
quote, Dague is becoming troublesome and should

00:23:17.500 --> 00:23:20.460
be removed, end quote. Hammerskjöld's mission

00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:23.279
to end war over the mineral rich Katongi secession

00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.960
from the newly formed Republic of the Condo was

00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:29.000
contrary to the interests of those organizations.

00:23:29.299 --> 00:23:31.539
However, these documents were copies rather than

00:23:31.539 --> 00:23:34.680
originals, precluding substantiation of authenticity

00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.680
through ink and paper testing. So no way to tell

00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.609
if they're actually real. But what is that? four

00:23:40.609 --> 00:23:43.609
accusations already we've got pilot error we've

00:23:43.609 --> 00:23:48.009
got potentially KGB and then we got CIA MI6 and

00:23:48.009 --> 00:23:51.210
Belgian mining interests that all could potentially

00:23:51.210 --> 00:23:54.170
have brought this plane down plus this South

00:23:54.170 --> 00:23:56.509
African paramilitary organization which have

00:23:56.509 --> 00:23:59.390
the papers that may or may not be real it just

00:23:59.390 --> 00:24:02.450
seems like he's a highly killable guy at this

00:24:02.450 --> 00:24:06.690
point like Nobody quite likes what was going

00:24:06.690 --> 00:24:08.789
on there, and everybody had their own reasons

00:24:08.789 --> 00:24:11.309
for not liking Hammerskjöld's involvement. Yeah.

00:24:11.670 --> 00:24:14.410
Whether you say it's the USSR saying they don't

00:24:14.410 --> 00:24:17.150
like the idea of Hammerskjöld, or you say it's

00:24:17.150 --> 00:24:19.970
the European special interests who want their

00:24:19.970 --> 00:24:22.490
mining rights, or whether you say it's South

00:24:22.490 --> 00:24:25.789
Africans who just don't like the idea of Congo

00:24:25.789 --> 00:24:28.700
being an independent state like that. Yeah. But

00:24:28.700 --> 00:24:30.660
Chelsea, this keeps going and we keep getting

00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:32.960
newer and newer information out of this. So in

00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:36.000
2014, a newly declassified document revealed

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.299
that the American ambassador to the Congo sent

00:24:38.299 --> 00:24:40.720
a cable to Washington, D .C. warning that the

00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.579
plane had been shot down by Belgian military

00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:46.559
pilot Jan van Rizegum, commander of the small

00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:50.180
Contonghen Air Force. Van Rizegum died in 2007.

00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:56.720
Hold up, what's his name? Jan van Rizegum. On

00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:01.200
March 16, 2015, UN Secretary -General Ban Ki

00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.559
-moon appointed members to an independent panel

00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:05.799
of experts to examine new information related

00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:08.079
to Hammerskills death. The three -member panel

00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:10.819
was led by Mohammed Shande Othman, the Chief

00:25:10.819 --> 00:25:14.319
Justice of Tanzania, and included Karen McCauley,

00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:16.279
Australia's representative to the International

00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:18.619
Civil Aviation Organization, and Henrik Larsen,

00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:21.519
a ballistic expert from the Danish National Police.

00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.579
The panel's 99 -page report was released in July

00:25:24.579 --> 00:25:28.220
of 2015 and it assigned moderate value to nine

00:25:28.220 --> 00:25:31.220
new eyewitness accounts and transcripts of radio

00:25:31.220 --> 00:25:33.950
transmissions. Those accounts suggested that

00:25:33.950 --> 00:25:36.130
Hammersfield's plane was already on fire as it

00:25:36.130 --> 00:25:39.150
landed, and that other jet aircraft and intelligence

00:25:39.150 --> 00:25:43.150
agents were nearby. In 2016, the original document

00:25:43.150 --> 00:25:46.250
from the 1998 South African investigation surfaced,

00:25:46.349 --> 00:25:48.869
and those familiar with the investigation cautioned

00:25:48.869 --> 00:25:50.869
that even if authentic, the documents could have

00:25:50.869 --> 00:25:53.809
been initially authored as part of a disinformation

00:25:53.809 --> 00:25:56.930
campaign. Which just adds so many wrinkles to

00:25:56.930 --> 00:26:04.240
what the hell that means. What year did he die?

00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:07.460
What year did the plane fall? 61. It was I believe

00:26:07.460 --> 00:26:11.319
October of 61. Oh, and this is pretty recent

00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:15.369
in comparison to 61. Yeah, 50 years later. 55

00:26:15.369 --> 00:26:19.130
years later. In 2019, the documentary film Cold

00:26:19.130 --> 00:26:22.349
Case Hammerskjöld by Danish filmmaker Mads Brugge

00:26:22.349 --> 00:26:26.170
claimed that Jan van Rysighem had told a friend

00:26:26.170 --> 00:26:29.029
that he shot down Hammerskjöld's aircraft. This

00:26:29.029 --> 00:26:31.329
went against the official stance maintained by

00:26:31.329 --> 00:26:33.750
van Rysighem's family that he was not involved

00:26:33.750 --> 00:26:36.049
in the death of Hammerskjöld. According to an

00:26:36.049 --> 00:26:38.500
interview with van Rysighem's wife, He was in

00:26:38.500 --> 00:26:40.680
Rhodesia negotiating the purchase of a plane

00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:43.819
for the Katongan Air Force, with logbooks providing,

00:26:43.819 --> 00:26:46.559
quote, proof that he was not flying for the Katongans

00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:49.640
at that time, end quote. The documentary crew

00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:52.200
interviewed multiple colleagues of von Riesigam

00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:54.440
for the film, all of whom supported their theory.

00:26:54.619 --> 00:26:57.019
In an interview with Swedish historian Leif Hellström,

00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:59.599
van Riesigam claimed that he was not in southern

00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:02.000
Africa at the time the crash happened and dismissed

00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.559
the idea of this being potentially involved as

00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.440
fairy stories. I guess that's what they call

00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:09.369
them. in Belgium. Previously unpublished documents

00:27:09.369 --> 00:27:12.250
continue to emerge from the UN or National Archives,

00:27:12.410 --> 00:27:16.150
one found in France amidst the Franz Foucault,

00:27:16.269 --> 00:27:19.029
the National Archives and Pierre Fitt. In November

00:27:19.029 --> 00:27:22.210
of 2021 is a death warrant for Hammerskjöld,

00:27:22.309 --> 00:27:25.470
signed by the infamous OAS, the secret organization

00:27:25.470 --> 00:27:27.490
that was built in the French army at the time

00:27:27.490 --> 00:27:30.549
of Algeria's War of Independence. Super, super

00:27:30.549 --> 00:27:33.589
racist group. The document reads, quote, it is

00:27:33.589 --> 00:27:36.269
high time to put an end to his harmful intrusion

00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:39.359
This sentence common to justice and fairness

00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:43.079
to be carried out as soon as possible." The source

00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:45.380
was revealed by French journalist Morin Picard,

00:27:45.859 --> 00:27:48.099
according to whom the links between the white

00:27:48.099 --> 00:27:51.299
mercenaries in Katanga and OAS are overt. As

00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:53.680
years keep coming, more people get implicated

00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.220
as to who wanted him dead. My name isn't in this,

00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:58.619
is it? I don't know. I wasn't alive. Just give

00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:03.529
it a few more years. I wasn't alive. There's

00:28:03.529 --> 00:28:06.750
a fairly good article on foreignpolicy .com just

00:28:06.750 --> 00:28:08.829
about this. It's called Digg Hammerskjöld's plane

00:28:08.829 --> 00:28:11.269
crash. What really happened to the UN chief that

00:28:11.269 --> 00:28:12.970
we're going to read an excerpt from. This is

00:28:12.970 --> 00:28:16.650
from February 15th, 2022, and it is written by.

00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:20.400
Column Lynch, which, I don't know, that sounds

00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.160
like a fake name. It really does. Investigators

00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:24.900
fear they are running out of time to get to the

00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:26.980
bottom of what happened. Key witnesses from the

00:28:26.980 --> 00:28:30.059
time are dying off, and the UN inquiry led by

00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:33.299
former Tanzanian Chief Justice Mohamed Chande

00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:35.859
Othman is set to conclude in September without

00:28:35.859 --> 00:28:38.099
having established conclusively the circumstances

00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:40.380
of how the plane crashed. Othman has been investigating

00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:42.819
the case on and off for the UN since March of

00:28:42.819 --> 00:28:45.769
2015. Over the years, Othman has amassed a significant

00:28:45.769 --> 00:28:47.690
amount of evidence, including the testimony of

00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:49.769
African eyewitnesses, suggesting foul play was

00:28:49.769 --> 00:28:52.029
largely ignored by early investigations in the

00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:55.210
1960s. That goes against claims by British colonial

00:28:55.210 --> 00:28:57.170
authorities in northern Rhodesia at the time

00:28:57.170 --> 00:28:59.450
that Hammerskjöld's death was an accident. Othman

00:28:59.450 --> 00:29:01.509
has explored a theory that a mysterious aircraft

00:29:01.509 --> 00:29:03.849
may have either fired on Hammerskjöld's plane

00:29:03.849 --> 00:29:06.430
or harassed the pilot, causing it to crash, or

00:29:06.430 --> 00:29:08.670
even that the plane may have been sabotaged by

00:29:08.670 --> 00:29:10.849
South African mercenaries, allegedly with the

00:29:10.849 --> 00:29:13.250
aid of the CIA and other Western intelligence

00:29:13.250 --> 00:29:16.029
agencies. The CIA previously denied involvement

00:29:16.029 --> 00:29:18.849
in the alleged operation Celeste. Bothman said

00:29:18.849 --> 00:29:22.029
in his two previous reports, issued in 2017 and

00:29:22.029 --> 00:29:24.809
2019, that the burden of proof was on member

00:29:24.809 --> 00:29:26.970
states to demonstrate that they have conducted

00:29:26.970 --> 00:29:29.029
a thorough review of their records and archives,

00:29:29.089 --> 00:29:31.309
particularly from their intelligence agencies.

00:29:31.509 --> 00:29:34.410
Quote, the continued non -disclosure of potentially

00:29:34.410 --> 00:29:36.890
relevant new information in the intelligence

00:29:36.890 --> 00:29:39.269
security and defense archives of member states

00:29:39.269 --> 00:29:42.150
constitutes the biggest barrier to our understanding

00:29:51.949 --> 00:29:55.089
I mean, they're putting the onus on countries

00:29:55.089 --> 00:29:58.609
to investigate their own... Not investigate themselves,

00:29:58.910 --> 00:30:01.890
turn over any documents they have. Yeah. And

00:30:01.890 --> 00:30:05.390
they have documents, we know it. They keep accidentally

00:30:05.390 --> 00:30:12.509
coming out. Now, let's get through this. Zambia,

00:30:12.589 --> 00:30:15.210
and the Democratic Republic of the Congo have

00:30:15.210 --> 00:30:17.450
appointed high -ranking figures including Sidney

00:30:17.450 --> 00:30:20.250
Sikaramia, a former Zimbabwean defense minister,

00:30:20.430 --> 00:30:22.589
to oversee the search for documents and provide

00:30:22.589 --> 00:30:25.240
full access to their archives. Belgium. France

00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:27.640
and Sweden have also granted extensive access

00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:30.500
to their security files, but the US and Britain

00:30:30.500 --> 00:30:33.480
have been less forthcoming, appointing relatively

00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:35.799
low -level officials to manage the search for

00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:37.900
relevant evidence and releasing the occasional

00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:40.339
confirmation of evidence brought to them by the

00:30:40.339 --> 00:30:43.180
UN. So basically, if the UN uncovers something,

00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:44.920
they'll be like, oh yeah, that checks up with

00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:47.599
something we found. But that's all they turn

00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.500
over. The air tragedy unfolded against the background

00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:53.099
of a bloody civil war that followed Congo's independence

00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:55.960
from Belgium. The war pitted Congolese nationalists

00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:58.099
against a secessionist rebellion in the mineral

00:30:58.099 --> 00:31:00.099
-rich state of Katanga, which had the backing

00:31:00.099 --> 00:31:02.619
of Belgian Western mining companies, European

00:31:02.619 --> 00:31:05.420
mercenaries, and the CIA. Hammerskjöld was en

00:31:05.420 --> 00:31:07.900
route to Ndola and northern Rhodesia to negotiate

00:31:07.900 --> 00:31:10.660
a ceasefire with secessionist leader Moez Tashambe.

00:31:10.819 --> 00:31:13.380
The United Nations sent peacekeepers into Congo,

00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:15.160
where they ultimately found themselves at war

00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.460
with Katanga. separatists and European mercenaries

00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:19.519
who were backed by Western mining interests.

00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.319
That's fun, isn't it? I mean, that's the definition

00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:25.180
of fun. Yeah. A Rhodesian commission of inquiry

00:31:25.180 --> 00:31:27.160
found that the pilot had miscalculated the height

00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.519
of the tree line and plowed into the forest canopy.

00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.039
A subsequent UA inquiry could not establish the

00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:33.799
cause of the crash, leaving open the possibility

00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:35.680
that Hammerskjöld could have died either as a

00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:38.039
result of an accident or foul play. Eyewitnesses

00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:40.140
in the area recall seeing a small plane approach

00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:43.420
the Albertina before there was a bright flash

00:31:43.420 --> 00:31:45.869
in the sky, then watching the flaming aircraft

00:31:45.869 --> 00:31:48.250
plunge into the forest, instantly killing everyone

00:31:48.250 --> 00:31:50.789
on board except the delegation's acting chief

00:31:50.789 --> 00:31:53.049
security officer, Harold Julian, who died from

00:31:53.049 --> 00:31:55.069
his injuries nearly a week later. Before his

00:31:55.069 --> 00:31:57.829
death, Julian, a former U .S. Marine, quote,

00:31:57.930 --> 00:32:00.509
suggested a threat or attack as the plane approached

00:32:00.509 --> 00:32:03.769
Nidola, possibly involving a sudden explosion,

00:32:03.990 --> 00:32:06.269
end quote, according to Othman's reports. Quote,

00:32:06.329 --> 00:32:10.410
this evidence was augmented in 2018 -19 by information

00:32:10.410 --> 00:32:12.670
from Zimbabwe that showed that Northern Rhodesian

00:32:12.670 --> 00:32:15.349
authorities had tried to those statements of

00:32:15.349 --> 00:32:18.430
Julian from being made public, end quote, Othman's

00:32:18.430 --> 00:32:21.920
report found in 2019. It's not suspicious. Othman

00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:24.740
has cited documents indicating that British officials

00:32:24.740 --> 00:32:27.160
had intervened behind closed doors to persuade

00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:29.519
the UN to alter the conclusion of the report

00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:33.400
to rule sabotage as an external attack. In 1992,

00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:36.039
two of Hammerskjöld's top advisors, Conor Cruz

00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:38.539
O 'Brien and George Ivan Smith, wrote in The

00:32:38.539 --> 00:32:40.680
Guardian that they had evidence that their boss's

00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:43.299
plane had been shot down by accident by mercenaries

00:32:43.299 --> 00:32:45.920
in the employ of Belgian, American, and British

00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:48.400
mining interests, which feared Hammerskjöld's

00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:51.259
peacemaking would jeopardize their business interests.

00:32:51.420 --> 00:32:54.160
Which again just a whole other different option

00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:56.319
like why is that even an option now that like

00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:58.819
okay they might have done it but it was by accident.

00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:04.779
Goran Bjorkdahl, a Swedish national whose father

00:33:04.779 --> 00:33:07.359
worked in the region, began researching the UN

00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:09.160
chief's death and conducting interviews with

00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:11.900
local charcoal makers who had witnessed Albertina's

00:33:11.900 --> 00:33:14.119
final descent. Rhodesian and UN investigators

00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:16.539
at the time largely dismissed the testimony of

00:33:16.539 --> 00:33:18.980
black African eyewitnesses. Of course they would.

00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:21.140
The case received a boost when Susan Williams,

00:33:21.259 --> 00:33:23.880
a British scholar who grew up in Zambia, revisited

00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:26.980
the crime. unearthing previously unseen documents

00:33:26.980 --> 00:33:30.460
from the archived papers of Lord Cuthbert Alport,

00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:32.740
who was the British High Commissioner in Rhodesia

00:33:32.740 --> 00:33:35.460
in 1961, who was at the Ndola airport on the

00:33:35.460 --> 00:33:37.259
night of the crash, including a secret report

00:33:37.259 --> 00:33:40.240
by Neil Ritchie, an MI6 agent who organized a

00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:42.259
planned meeting between Hammerskjöld and Deshambé.

00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:44.940
Williams' 2011 book, Who Killed Hammerskjöld,

00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.039
the UN, the Cold War, and the White Supremacy

00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:49.259
in Africa, helped spur the establishment a year

00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:51.319
later of the Hammerskjöld Commission, a voluntary

00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.259
body of international jurists and lawyers. chaired

00:33:54.259 --> 00:33:57.039
by a British judge, Stephen Sedley. Williams

00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:00.400
has since fed documents to the UN investigators.

00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:03.660
Quote, the response of the US and the UK to Judge

00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:06.960
Othman have been appalling and arrogant, end

00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.239
quote Williams told Foreign Policy in an email.

00:34:09.460 --> 00:34:11.280
Quote, but they are entirely consistent with

00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:13.039
the behavior of those states at the time of the

00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:15.639
crash. When Britain was the colonial and racist

00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:18.199
ruler of Northern Rhodesia, now Zambia, and the

00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:21.829
US was interfering in. the process of decolonization

00:34:21.829 --> 00:34:24.570
of Africa. Both the UK and the United States

00:34:24.570 --> 00:34:27.389
stated that all relevant information had already

00:34:27.389 --> 00:34:30.349
been made available, but this was not true in

00:34:30.349 --> 00:34:34.070
either case." The Hammerskill Commission concluded

00:34:34.070 --> 00:34:37.789
in its final 2013 report that there is persuasive

00:34:37.789 --> 00:34:41.130
evidence that the aircraft was subjected to some

00:34:41.130 --> 00:34:43.510
form of attack or threat as it circled to land

00:34:43.510 --> 00:34:47.309
in Ndola. It is highly likely that the entirety

00:34:47.309 --> 00:34:49.750
of the local and regional Ndola radio traffic

00:34:49.750 --> 00:34:51.670
on the night of the 17th and 18th of September

00:34:51.670 --> 00:34:54.949
of 1961 was tracked and recorded by the NSA and

00:34:54.949 --> 00:34:58.429
possibly also by the CIA." These findings prompted

00:34:58.429 --> 00:35:01.289
the UN General Assembly in 2015 to adopt a resolution

00:35:01.289 --> 00:35:04.329
calling on then UN Secretary General Ban Ki -moon

00:35:04.329 --> 00:35:06.489
to create a panel of experts to examine the case

00:35:06.489 --> 00:35:08.170
and determine whether there was enough evidence

00:35:08.170 --> 00:35:10.300
to merit further investigation. Bann appointed

00:35:10.300 --> 00:35:12.500
Othman, who is expected to conclude his report

00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:15.019
in September. At the time of Hammersgold's death,

00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:17.659
US and Britain had extensive intelligence assets

00:35:17.659 --> 00:35:20.940
in the region including CIA agents and NSA surveillance

00:35:20.940 --> 00:35:23.260
capabilities. But much of what the UN has learned?

00:35:23.500 --> 00:35:25.440
about U .S. activities in the region has come

00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:27.679
from independent researchers, private archives,

00:35:27.820 --> 00:35:30.559
and other governments. Othman has asked the U

00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:33.760
.S. to provide access to intercepts and other

00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:35.539
evidence of communications from Hammerskills

00:35:35.539 --> 00:35:37.639
Plane or other U .S. aircrafts in the area at

00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:39.619
the time of the crash. On the night of the crash,

00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:42.119
there were at least three U .S. planes, including

00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:45.360
U .S. Army and Navy attachés aircraft, equipped

00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:46.860
with state -of -the -art surveillance equipment

00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:49.460
at the airport in Nidola. One U .S. intelligence

00:35:49.460 --> 00:35:52.500
official, Charles Southall, recalled in interviews

00:35:52.500 --> 00:35:55.170
having overheard intercepts of a known European

00:35:55.170 --> 00:35:57.730
mercenary pilot nicknamed the Lone Ranger shooting

00:35:57.730 --> 00:36:00.130
down Hammerskjöld's plane. The U .S. Ambassador

00:36:00.130 --> 00:36:03.949
to Congo, Edmund A. Gullian, sent a report to

00:36:03.949 --> 00:36:06.530
Washington on the day that Hammerskjöld was killed

00:36:06.530 --> 00:36:09.070
stating the plane, quote, may have been shot

00:36:09.070 --> 00:36:11.860
down, end quote. Quote, the historical record

00:36:11.860 --> 00:36:13.659
strongly suggests that governments, including

00:36:13.659 --> 00:36:15.699
the U .S., which had a presence in and around

00:36:15.699 --> 00:36:18.420
the Congo region at the time, may hold such evidence,

00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:21.239
end quote, Othman wrote in an annex to his report

00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:24.460
in 2019. But the United Nations has provided

00:36:24.460 --> 00:36:27.380
limited confirmation for years. Washington denied

00:36:27.380 --> 00:36:30.360
that Paul Abram, a former U .S. Air Force security

00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:33.239
service officer, also overheard transmissions

00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.380
of an attack the night of the crash, worked for

00:36:35.380 --> 00:36:37.960
the U .S., only acknowledging that his link to

00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.579
U .S. intelligence after he furnished the American

00:36:40.579 --> 00:36:42.960
officials with his government identification.

00:36:43.219 --> 00:36:45.119
So he was giving information they're like no

00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.219
it didn't work for us and then he like literally

00:36:47.219 --> 00:36:49.420
had to put his like badge down to show them that

00:36:49.420 --> 00:36:52.199
he did. A spokesperson for the US State Department

00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:54.260
said the United States takes Othman's inquiry

00:36:54.260 --> 00:36:56.880
seriously and shares his interest in understanding

00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:59.519
the circumstances of death of Secretary General

00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:02.119
Dag Hammarskjöld. Quote, over the years the United

00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:04.619
States has shared over a thousand pages of previously

00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:07.719
classified documents with the UN inspector investigator.

00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.039
End quote. The spokesperson said, speaking on

00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:12.099
condition of anonymity. The Office of the Director

00:37:12.099 --> 00:37:14.039
of National Intelligence, the official added,

00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:16.119
quote, conducted yet another exhaustive search

00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:18.619
for U .S. intelligence archives and did not find

00:37:18.619 --> 00:37:20.780
any additional information that would shed light

00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:23.300
on the circumstances of Secretary General Hammersfield's

00:37:23.300 --> 00:37:25.800
death, end quote. British and Rhodesian colonial

00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:28.199
intelligence officials were also intercepting

00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:30.679
communication, suggesting that they may have

00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:33.019
pertinent clues buried in their archives. Othman

00:37:33.019 --> 00:37:35.739
is seeking access to documents describing the

00:37:35.739 --> 00:37:38.650
activities of Ritchie, the MI6 agent, and other

00:37:38.650 --> 00:37:40.690
British officials who were tasked with organizing

00:37:40.690 --> 00:37:42.550
the meeting between Hammerskjold to Shambay.

00:37:42.789 --> 00:37:45.670
Othman also saw information about a Belgian mercenary

00:37:45.670 --> 00:37:48.309
pilot, Jan van Rizighem, who had served in the

00:37:48.309 --> 00:37:51.289
British Royal Air Force during World War II and

00:37:51.289 --> 00:37:53.969
is alleged by a colleague to have admitted to

00:37:53.969 --> 00:37:56.190
flying the plane that brought down Hammerskjold's

00:37:56.190 --> 00:37:58.369
aircraft. Pierre Coppens, a colleague of the

00:37:58.369 --> 00:38:00.710
Belgian pilot, asserted in the documentary Cold

00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:02.769
Case Hammerskjold that Van Rizighem was known

00:38:02.769 --> 00:38:05.829
as the Lone Ranger. Othman is also seeking information

00:38:05.829 --> 00:38:08.409
from the South African government about an alleged

00:38:08.409 --> 00:38:10.849
plot by a paramilitary group known as South African

00:38:10.849 --> 00:38:13.550
Institute for Maritime Research to assassinate

00:38:13.550 --> 00:38:16.250
Hammerskjöld by placing a bomb in his blame before

00:38:16.250 --> 00:38:18.650
it left the airfield in Leopoldville. Now the

00:38:18.650 --> 00:38:21.150
Congolese capital of Kinshasa, en route to Ndola.

00:38:21.269 --> 00:38:24.070
In a March 2019 letter to South Africa, Othman

00:38:24.070 --> 00:38:26.190
said he understood that the South African government

00:38:26.190 --> 00:38:28.550
had located documents detailing the plan dubbed

00:38:28.550 --> 00:38:31.469
Operations Celeste, but those documents have

00:38:31.469 --> 00:38:35.510
never been shared with the UN. And I think I

00:38:35.510 --> 00:38:37.940
have two more articles quotations I need to read

00:38:37.940 --> 00:38:44.840
from now. This one's from The Guardian. The observer

00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:53.699
can now reveal that he had extensive ties to

00:38:53.699 --> 00:38:55.780
Britain, including a British mother -in -wife

00:38:55.780 --> 00:38:58.860
trained with the RAF and was decorated by Britain

00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:02.440
for his service in the Second World War. whose

00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:05.139
father was Belgian, escaped occupied Europe at

00:39:05.139 --> 00:39:07.059
the start of the war to join the resistance in

00:39:07.059 --> 00:39:09.420
England. He trained with the RAF and flew missions

00:39:09.420 --> 00:39:11.940
over Nazi -held areas during the period he met

00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:14.320
and married his British wife, cementing a lifelong

00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:16.980
connection. For decades, Von Rysigam appeared

00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.099
to have proof that he wasn't flying in the region

00:39:19.099 --> 00:39:21.320
on the Night Hammerskills plane, the Albertina,

00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:23.760
came down outside of Nidola in Zambia, then called

00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:26.480
northern Rhodesia. Flight logs, meticulous records

00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:28.619
of where and when he flew, appear to show Von

00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:30.639
Rysigam was not flying for most of that month,

00:39:30.699 --> 00:39:33.030
returning to duty only on September 20th. However,

00:39:33.349 --> 00:39:35.309
Roger Bracco, another mercenary flying for the

00:39:35.309 --> 00:39:37.469
Katongis, told filmmakers that his colleagues'

00:39:37.730 --> 00:39:40.070
logbooks are dotted with apparent forgeries.

00:39:40.369 --> 00:39:42.309
He does not believe that Von Brisingham shot

00:39:42.309 --> 00:39:44.710
down Hammerskjöld, but when asked in an interview

00:39:44.710 --> 00:39:46.949
for the film if he considered the logbook a fake,

00:39:47.090 --> 00:39:50.269
he responded, I won't say so, but I didn't recognize

00:39:50.269 --> 00:39:55.929
the story it told. No, a guy that flew with him.

00:39:58.970 --> 00:40:01.510
Risigum unfortunately died before most of this

00:40:01.510 --> 00:40:03.750
investigation actually happened, which is a shame

00:40:03.750 --> 00:40:06.530
because this happened like 40 years after it

00:40:06.530 --> 00:40:08.380
should have happened. Yeah, I mean that makes

00:40:08.380 --> 00:40:10.659
sense that he's dead now and everyone's just

00:40:10.659 --> 00:40:13.619
having this hearsay problem. Okay. Leafing through

00:40:13.619 --> 00:40:16.059
the book, he later directly accuses Van Rysigam

00:40:16.059 --> 00:40:19.059
of forgery. Quote, this is fake. End quote. Bronco

00:40:19.059 --> 00:40:21.400
says bluntly of one flight destination and goes

00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:23.679
on to add that some of the names listed for copilots

00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:25.900
are not real. A friend has also come forward

00:40:25.900 --> 00:40:28.179
to claim that less than a decade after Hammerskjold's

00:40:28.179 --> 00:40:30.440
death, Van Rysigam told him he had attacked the

00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:33.239
plane. Pierre Coppens met Van Rysigam in 1965

00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:35.619
when he was flying for a parachute training center

00:40:35.619 --> 00:40:38.119
in Belgium. Over several conversations, he claimed

00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:41.059
the pilot detailed how he overcame various technical

00:40:41.059 --> 00:40:43.360
challenges to down the plane unaware who was

00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:53.559
traveling inside. And then, Chelsea, because

00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:57.139
we're in 2025, Othman's report came out in 2022,

00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:00.199
and I have an excerpt from it. And this is where

00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:02.780
I'm going to end it off, is after this part of

00:41:02.780 --> 00:41:07.789
the report. No, we're not going to cut it out

00:41:07.789 --> 00:41:09.269
there. There might be more. I haven't looked

00:41:09.269 --> 00:41:12.210
into it. I'm just rereading the script. So, as

00:41:12.210 --> 00:41:14.809
mandated, I have also sought to draw conclusions

00:41:14.809 --> 00:41:17.010
from the investigations already conducted. As

00:41:17.010 --> 00:41:19.610
in 2019, I assess that it remains plausible.

00:41:19.710 --> 00:41:21.969
that an external attack or threat was the cause

00:41:21.969 --> 00:41:24.389
of the crash. However, it is not reasonable to

00:41:24.389 --> 00:41:26.389
reach a conclusion as to the cause of the tragic

00:41:26.389 --> 00:41:29.030
event based on presently available but incomplete

00:41:29.030 --> 00:41:32.769
information. This is because material information

00:41:32.769 --> 00:41:35.010
that appears to have been created or held by

00:41:35.010 --> 00:41:38.349
member states remains undisclosed. In March of

00:41:38.349 --> 00:41:41.210
2020, and subsequently, I sent requests for information

00:41:41.210 --> 00:41:43.750
to four key member states that had been identified

00:41:43.750 --> 00:41:46.269
in 2019 and that were urged by the Assembly to

00:41:46.269 --> 00:41:48.889
engage in further process of disclosing relevant

00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.099
Chelsea, do you want to guess who? But you're

00:41:51.099 --> 00:41:56.119
Dodie. No, fucking Dodie. I knew it. The Russian

00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:59.699
Federation, South Africa, the UK and the United

00:41:59.699 --> 00:42:02.860
States. None of them are being helpful in any

00:42:02.860 --> 00:42:05.800
way. The 2017 and 2019 reports concluded that

00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:07.900
the burden of proof had shifted to certain member

00:42:07.900 --> 00:42:10.079
states to show that they had conducted a full

00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:11.880
review of records and archives in their custody

00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:14.440
or possession. I respectfully submit that the

00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:17.440
burden of proof to conduct a full review of our

00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:19.440
records and archives resulting a full disclosure

00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:22.059
has not been discharged at the present time.

00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:25.440
Indeed. Information received from other sources

00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:27.599
under the present mandate underscores that it

00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:30.619
is almost certain that these member states created,

00:42:30.699 --> 00:42:33.940
held, or were otherwise aware of specific important

00:42:33.940 --> 00:42:36.199
information regarding the cause of the tragic

00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:39.000
event. That information is yet to be disclosed.

00:42:39.219 --> 00:42:42.460
So the answer is probably out there written down

00:42:42.460 --> 00:42:45.579
by one of those states and they won't disclose

00:42:45.579 --> 00:42:48.800
it. You really think it's written down somewhere?

00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:53.980
We shot it down. Yes, I actually do. But who

00:42:53.980 --> 00:42:56.780
is it? What do we make of this that there's so

00:42:56.780 --> 00:42:59.539
many different nations who don't necessarily

00:42:59.539 --> 00:43:02.360
work together holding back this information?

00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:04.960
And had completely different motivations for

00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:07.420
doing it, but will not turn it over. Like Russia

00:43:07.420 --> 00:43:10.900
has succinctly different reasons than the UK

00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:14.449
and the US. for why they might want Hammerskill

00:43:14.449 --> 00:43:17.849
dead. Do you think that is because each one secretly

00:43:17.849 --> 00:43:21.269
thinks that they probably did it? I don't know

00:43:21.269 --> 00:43:23.889
and that's such a weird thing. Like you would

00:43:23.889 --> 00:43:26.550
think if one of these groups had the information

00:43:26.550 --> 00:43:29.730
on the other nations they would disclose it.

00:43:29.789 --> 00:43:32.590
It seems that's the only logical thing in my

00:43:32.590 --> 00:43:35.869
mind is that they're not conducting it because

00:43:35.869 --> 00:43:39.110
they like whoever you're asking is legitimately

00:43:39.110 --> 00:43:42.429
like it was probably us so that's the only -

00:43:41.869 --> 00:43:44.769
way it makes sense but how could it be both the

00:43:44.769 --> 00:43:48.190
US and Russia because they wouldn't have worked

00:43:48.190 --> 00:43:51.289
together at that time that's the only reason

00:43:51.289 --> 00:43:53.929
I could think that they wouldn't is because they

00:43:53.929 --> 00:43:56.250
think that it's probably them nothing else makes

00:43:56.250 --> 00:43:59.510
sense Like, themselves. Like, the US doesn't

00:43:59.510 --> 00:44:02.130
want to do it because the US thinks it's them.

00:44:02.250 --> 00:44:03.829
Russia doesn't want to do it because... Do you

00:44:03.829 --> 00:44:05.489
really think that that's what it is, is they

00:44:05.489 --> 00:44:07.769
went to their respective spy agencies and they

00:44:07.769 --> 00:44:10.610
said, um, hey, did we do this? And they said,

00:44:10.630 --> 00:44:12.429
I don't know, maybe. And they said, okay, best

00:44:12.429 --> 00:44:14.929
not to look into it. Yeah, like something like

00:44:14.929 --> 00:44:17.730
that. It has to be. There's no other thing that

00:44:17.730 --> 00:44:20.230
makes sense because in the way you tell it, like,

00:44:20.349 --> 00:44:23.449
everyone did it. But not everyone would have

00:44:23.449 --> 00:44:25.929
done it. Like, I don't see, like, Russia and

00:44:25.929 --> 00:44:29.920
the US... or like Russia and Britain or Belgium

00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:32.719
like worked together on doing it. I could see

00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:34.840
like two or three of them working together, particularly

00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:37.840
like Belgium, the U .S. and mining interests

00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:40.880
in the area. But there's just like so many different

00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:42.699
groups. Do you think it was like a Rube Goldberg

00:44:42.699 --> 00:44:45.039
of assassination attempts that accidentally worked

00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:48.699
together? Maybe. And it just, it does, that doesn't

00:44:48.699 --> 00:44:51.300
make sense like in this. But I just, I want to

00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:52.900
bring it back to that whole thing that in the

00:44:52.900 --> 00:44:54.699
conspiracy world, the UN is considered like a

00:44:54.699 --> 00:44:57.570
big boogie man. And they're asking these countries

00:44:57.570 --> 00:44:59.869
to just nicely please turn over your records

00:44:59.869 --> 00:45:02.389
you have for when you killed our leader. And

00:45:02.389 --> 00:45:04.289
they're just like, nah, we don't have anything.

00:45:04.869 --> 00:45:07.050
And the UN is just like, well, they won't give

00:45:07.050 --> 00:45:11.110
us the documents. And that's where it ends. That's

00:45:11.110 --> 00:45:14.650
how much power they have. Please. And they're

00:45:14.650 --> 00:45:17.269
like, nah. And they're like, nah. Yeah, we don't

00:45:17.269 --> 00:45:21.869
have anything. Did you look? No. OK. Okay, well...

00:45:21.869 --> 00:45:24.769
Look, maybe we find out in like 30 years it was

00:45:24.769 --> 00:45:27.329
Journey to the Fringe, but I don't, I just don't

00:45:27.329 --> 00:45:31.269
know. In some weird time, it was probably us

00:45:31.269 --> 00:45:34.090
too. Everyone did it at this point, so why not

00:45:34.090 --> 00:45:36.389
Journey to the Fringe? Yeah, it was that time

00:45:36.389 --> 00:45:38.489
that we had Andrew Boziago on the show in about

00:45:38.489 --> 00:45:41.809
four years. Yeah, that was a fun time. It is

00:45:41.809 --> 00:45:44.530
such a captivating assassination, a potential

00:45:44.530 --> 00:45:48.309
assassination, I should say. Because there is

00:45:48.309 --> 00:45:51.510
a chance that the plane just crashed. the end

00:45:51.510 --> 00:45:54.150
of this but like nobody ever talks about this

00:45:54.150 --> 00:45:56.550
one i don't think there's a potential that it

00:45:56.550 --> 00:45:59.590
just crashed being what's at unless it is that

00:45:59.590 --> 00:46:02.110
it just crashed and everybody's like fuck this

00:46:02.110 --> 00:46:05.130
guy like everybody's making it more than it's

00:46:05.130 --> 00:46:08.230
out to be so i'm just not gonna cooperate it

00:46:08.230 --> 00:46:10.170
could actually be that these spy agencies want

00:46:10.170 --> 00:46:12.650
to look more powerful than they are and let the

00:46:12.650 --> 00:46:15.769
perception that they did this oh yeah playing

00:46:15.769 --> 00:46:23.449
french on it that's a low chance but um there

00:46:23.449 --> 00:46:26.289
that is out there i guess oh that works with

00:46:26.289 --> 00:46:29.909
the other theory too they and let's face it it's

00:46:29.909 --> 00:46:33.530
it's probably pretty cheap to uh go buy off the

00:46:33.530 --> 00:46:36.789
testimony of african villagers in the middle

00:46:36.789 --> 00:46:39.730
of the congo or in Rhodesia, Zimbabwe. Yeah,

00:46:39.769 --> 00:46:41.690
I did that last week. To tell them, say, hey,

00:46:41.789 --> 00:46:44.309
like you saw it get shot down. But yeah, Chelsea,

00:46:44.389 --> 00:46:46.449
what do you think of this story? As long as it

00:46:46.449 --> 00:46:49.610
doesn't come back to us, I think it's a lot of

00:46:49.610 --> 00:46:52.349
twists and turns and whodunnits. Usually, as

00:46:52.349 --> 00:46:55.170
like time goes on, especially like 50 years afterwards,

00:46:55.369 --> 00:46:58.889
it narrows and it's just like every time there

00:46:58.889 --> 00:47:01.090
was a story went further on, there's like, and

00:47:01.090 --> 00:47:04.940
here's another one who might have done it. And

00:47:04.940 --> 00:47:08.500
I did like Von Rissler's name. Big fan. It was

00:47:08.500 --> 00:47:10.739
probably - Yann Von Rissagum. Oh, he had the

00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:13.119
name to do it, so... Oh, it was definitely...

00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:15.599
I'm pretty sure he was there at the time, but

00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:18.079
whether or not he shot it down or it exploded

00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:21.300
and he just happened to be there, I don't know.

00:47:21.300 --> 00:47:24.280
It's so hard to say. And like then, who was he

00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:26.260
acting for? Because it turns out he flew for

00:47:26.260 --> 00:47:29.980
the British during World War II. It's not out

00:47:29.980 --> 00:47:32.760
of the ordinary. I don't think it's beyond his

00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:35.599
capabilities to have been hired by another. He

00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:37.920
may have been approached by everybody. Maybe

00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:40.170
that's why nobody's saying... anything. Maybe

00:47:40.170 --> 00:47:44.750
even hammer skilled himself. Oh, nobody even

00:47:44.750 --> 00:47:47.389
mentioned that. But in any event, that's probably

00:47:47.389 --> 00:47:49.809
enough down the rabbit hole in that one. I love

00:47:49.809 --> 00:47:51.849
this episode. I hope you enjoyed it the second

00:47:51.849 --> 00:47:53.909
time around that hopefully has better sound quality.

00:47:54.170 --> 00:47:56.329
But in any event, I have been Taylor here with

00:47:56.329 --> 00:47:58.150
Chelsea. We are journey to the fringe. Thank

00:47:58.150 --> 00:47:59.769
you all for listening. We'll see you next week.

00:48:02.099 --> 00:48:04.699
Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe.

00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.079
If you have liked what you have listened to,

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00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.760
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00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:40.260
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