1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,800 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe. 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,960 Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, where we put the fringe in fringe. 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,360 I didn't have anything today, I thought that was good enough. 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,680 We are here, host, who I swear we haven't written off the whole episode, the rest of 5 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:25,680 the episode is good. 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,080 I just didn't have time for the opener, guys. 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,000 We are your pop-chess host, Taylor and Chelsea. 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,600 Here today, we're talking about whether or not there's DNA of Bigfoot out there. 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,520 Nice, there is. 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,720 And specifically, if we have studied it and written it down in papers. 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,040 I bet you we have. 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,040 Chelsea, I think you know a bit about the story. 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,760 I'm going to dish on this whole thing with all the sass and whatnot that comes with it. 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,520 This story turned out a lot more interesting than I thought it was going to be, because 15 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,320 when I first did it, I couldn't find anything, including the paper that's supposed to be 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:58,960 on this subject. 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:00,760 I've got a lot to go over. 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,400 It's going to take a while, so let's just get right down to the start. 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:08,600 Now, Chelsea, this story is predominantly about one person, Dr. Melba Ketchum. 20 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,360 Have you ever heard of her? 21 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:11,360 Yes, I have. 22 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,760 And I'm sure you've heard her talk before, too. 23 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,680 We covered this briefly in David Polatis. 24 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,960 Yes, and he's going to come up at some point in this episode. 25 00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:20,960 Thank God. 26 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:24,600 I was really feeling like we were missing him in this episode. 27 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,600 That's all I've heard her from, to be honest. 28 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,720 You're going to know her for a few things after this. 29 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,880 Okay, turning to the French for what? 30 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:36,800 So you all know she is not only the most famous relative of Ash Ketchum. 31 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,680 She is also a vet. 32 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:39,680 You know what? 33 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,560 Let's just go over the coast to coast AM biography. 34 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:46,280 Those of you who grew up in the 90s or later probably got that Pokemon joke. 35 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,440 The rest of you, I do apologize for that. 36 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,600 Is Ash still existing Pokemon? 37 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:51,800 I think he does. 38 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,880 He might have just retired, but he went a long time. 39 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,520 Now, here's Dr. Melba Ketchum's coast to coast by geography, as we always start these 40 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:00,520 episodes. 41 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:05,400 She grew up in Texas City, Texas, and attended Texas AMM University, where she received her 42 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,760 doctorate in veterinary medicine after five years at the university. 43 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,040 She had a mixed veterinary practice until she founded DNA diagnostics. 44 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,200 And Dr. Ketchum is the president and founder of DNA Diagnostics, Inc., doing business as 45 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:20,760 Shelterwood Laboratories. 46 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,800 Established in 1985, DNA Diagnostics has become a leader in all types of DNA testing, including 47 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:32,440 human and animal forensics, human and animal paternity and parentage testing, disease diagnostics, 48 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:38,000 trait tests, animal and human identity testing, species identification, and sex determination. 49 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,720 Most common species of animal are tested at DNA diagnostics. 50 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:47,440 Ketchum initially says that she never believed in Bigfoot, and it's due to a friend's chilling 51 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:52,160 encounter with the creature in 1995 that was relayed to her that really made her a believer 52 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:53,880 and brought her into this world. 53 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,680 She was approached to get involved in the testing of collection samples from Bigfoot 54 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,080 sightings, and that's how she got brought onto the scene. 55 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,800 She got approached in, I believe it was 2008, and I can actually write that down, but it 56 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,360 was some years before this all actually happened. 57 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,280 And in November of 2013, after studying this stuff that they were given for five years, 58 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,240 finally got to a point of publishing a scientific paper in a scientific journal. 59 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,480 This was released in November of 2013. 60 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:24,800 The research appears in the DeNovo Journal of Science, which seemed to confirm Ketchum's 61 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,120 research about the reality of Bigfoot, and damn it, I forgot to include my joke about 62 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,240 her having to catch them all, which is what brought her into the study of this. 63 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:34,240 It can go here. 64 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,880 That's fine, you guys will get the joke. 65 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,040 From that time when this article came out, I found a live science article on it. 66 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,320 It can tell us what's in it. 67 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:49,280 The testing confirms the legendary Bigfoot is a human relative that arose some 15,000 68 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,120 years ago, at least according to a press release issued by a company called DNA Diagnostics, 69 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,840 detailing supposed work by a Texas veterinarian. 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:02,320 The release and alleged study by Melba Ketchum also suggests such cryptids had sex with modern 71 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:07,320 human females that resulted in hairy, hominin hybrids, but the scientific community is dubious 72 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:08,320 about her claims. 73 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,680 Quote, a team of scientists can verify that their five-year-long DNA study currently 74 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:17,640 under peer review confirms the existence of a novel hominin hybrid species commonly called 75 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,360 Bigfoot or Sasquatch living in North America. 76 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,680 The researchers' extensive DNA sequencing suggests that the legendary Sasquatch is a 77 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,360 human relative that arose approximately 15,000 years ago. 78 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,200 For her study, Ketchum obtained three, quote, whole nuclear genomes from purported Sasquatch 79 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:35,200 samples. 80 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:40,160 The genome sequencing shows that Sasquatch MT DNA is identical to modern Homo sapiens, 81 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,280 MT DNA's mitochondrial DNA. 82 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:47,800 What Sasquatch Nikolai DNA is a novel unknown hominin related to Homo sapiens and other 83 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,000 primate species, end quote. 84 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,560 Quote, our data indicates that the North American Sasquatch is a hybrid species the 85 00:04:54,560 --> 00:05:00,760 result of males of an unknown hominin species crossing with female Homo sapiens, end quote 86 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,000 the statement reads. 87 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,880 So that's what came from the story. 88 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,720 I should also state that on Ketchum's website at this time, Sasquatch genome project, she 89 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,440 writes quote, has been a long and tedious battle to prove that Sasquatch exists. 90 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,280 Trying to publish that had taken almost two years. 91 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:21,280 It seems mainstream science just can't seem to tolerate something controversial, especially 92 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:27,680 from a group of primarily forensic scientists and not quote famous academia and quote, still 93 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:33,160 inside her quote, aligned with our universities, even though most of our sequencing analysis 94 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,520 was performed at just such facilities, end quote. 95 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,800 That's all I got to read of her scientific paper. 96 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:45,040 It was published in DeNovo, Chelsea, I want you to go to DeNovo scientific journal, just 97 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,040 type it in. 98 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,200 You find it anything big foot DNA discovered the last. 99 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,640 Oh, no, no, that's not the website. 100 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,640 Novo Sciences dot AI. 101 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:54,640 Nope. 102 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:55,960 That's not it. 103 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,200 It doesn't exist anymore. 104 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:03,720 DeNovo Journal published one journal volume one issue one and it had one scientific paper 105 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:04,720 in it. 106 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,280 Do you want to guess which one? 107 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:08,720 The exact one you're talking about. 108 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:09,720 Yes. 109 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:10,720 And that's it. 110 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:11,720 And the website doesn't exist anymore. 111 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,800 Well, of course, why would you have it still running? 112 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,040 If you weren't publishing papers for the life of me, it is referenced in multiple places 113 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:22,040 on the web. 114 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:27,160 Can't find the journal entry anywhere because they all say back to the DeNovo website. 115 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:28,160 So it doesn't exist. 116 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:29,160 Isn't that convenient? 117 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,560 I mean, it probably does exist somewhere. 118 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,560 It has to because somebody wrote it. 119 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,440 It's not easy to find. 120 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:36,440 That is for sure. 121 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,720 I spent a long time trying to actually find it because I wanted to read this paper. 122 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:45,880 Instead, Chelsea, what we have to rely on is reading a critique of Ketchum's process 123 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:51,120 and paper that was written around the time of its publish by a skeptic. 124 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,920 This is titled The Ketchum Project, What to Believe About Bigfoot DNA Science Article. 125 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,080 It was uploaded by Sharon Hale on February 16, 2015. 126 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,480 Sharon Hale, this is all from, let me just find it really quick. 127 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,040 I'm sure that's what they were going for when they took the website down. 128 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,000 Please read the summary by a skeptic. 129 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,440 Honestly, the best thing you can find, you can find everything about Sharon Hale and 130 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,480 her background on here. 131 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,200 She's written six publications on here and has 19 citations. 132 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:22,200 It's the best thing we got. 133 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:23,880 And that's what we're going with from here. 134 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,560 And we're going to learn, Chelsea, all about the Bigfoot paper, proving that Bigfoot exists 135 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,960 through DNA sampling from this perspective. 136 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:37,160 In 2008, when her lab was picked to analyze the suspected Bigfoot Yeti hair from Bhutan, 137 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,760 collected as part of Josh Gates' adventure show Destination Truth, which airs on the 138 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,840 Discovery Channel in the US, Ketchum appeared twice on the show in 2009 and 2010 as a forensic 139 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:46,840 analyst. 140 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,920 She then became one of the go-to people for those who had collected DNA samples that they 141 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,560 thought might be from a Bigfoot. 142 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,320 Ketchum was affiliated with various corporations registered in the state of Texas, including 143 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,480 one called Science Alive LLC. 144 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:03,320 This partnership included Robert Schmalsbach, better known as Java Bob, who was previously 145 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:08,080 an officer under Tim Biscardi's group searching for Bigfoot, and Richard Stubstead, an engineer 146 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:12,080 who became interested in Bigfoot DNA and was a funder of Ketchum's work. 147 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:17,000 According to Stubstead, some sort of dispute occurred in fall of 2010 as lawyers eventually 148 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,640 managed to cut Schmalsbach and Stubstead out of this corporation venture, leaving Ketchum 149 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:26,760 with the entire control of any media from publicizing Bigfoot DNA findings. 150 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,440 This was not the first or last of legal dealings where Ketchum was involved. 151 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,040 Ketchum had been sued and lost a claim for patent infringement that required her lab 152 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,200 to stop using certain tests. 153 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,600 In addition, the lab itself was not in good standing with the public, having an F rating 154 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,040 by the Better Business Bureau due to complaints for delivering results, a possible problem 155 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:52,120 with the state of Texas regarding payment to franchise taxes, and some lost client contracts. 156 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,720 Ketchum responded to these issues by admitting she was naive regarding the people involved 157 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,920 in Bigfootery, which is the first time I've ever heard that term. 158 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:02,440 Some of whom she described as turning out to be unethical. 159 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,000 She did not know of their reputation but wanted them removed from the study to protect its 160 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,000 integrity. 161 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,160 Ketchum had been associated with several other individuals and projects throughout the years 162 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,360 of Bigfoot DNA collection and analyses, including the following, an Olympic project, a group 163 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:21,400 of researchers studying habitat and attempting to obtain trail cam photos of Bigfoot, Tom 164 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,840 Biscardi of Searching for Bigfoot Inc, involved with the infamous, and we'll cover this at 165 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,080 some point, 2008 Georgia Bigfoot in a Freezer story. 166 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,320 Chelsea, do you remember that? 167 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:32,320 I do, yep. 168 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,400 Who collected DNA samples for her project, so he's involved getting the DNA samples. 169 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,000 Oh, God, I was hoping he would be. 170 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,720 Wally Hursam, a generous contributor to several Bigfoot research projects, who funded at least 171 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,120 some of Ketchum's work. 172 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,440 Patriot Erickson of Sastwatch the Quest, who stated he has high-quality pictures and videos 173 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,600 of the creature, and David Politis of North American Bigfoot Survey, who is a Ketchum 174 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:56,600 supporter. 175 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,720 Politis, an ex-police officer and author of books about missing persons and tribe of 176 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,120 Bigfoot, has been particularly outspoken about Ketchum, placing the responsibility and scientific 177 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:11,520 study of Bigfoot DNA all on her, saying each of the samples used had its own specific story. 178 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,000 Ketchum alone had all the data, he says, and deserves the praise. 179 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,520 NDAs were signed among participants of the project so that information would not be leaked 180 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,600 prior to the reveal, but it was anyways. 181 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,720 A source of these samples supposedly included a toenail tamed by Biscardi from Larry Johnson, 182 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,880 blood from a smashed PVC pipe, and flesh from the remains of a Bigfoot body. 183 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,320 But it's not clear that all the samples were collected properly. 184 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,480 They also may have been exposed to contamination or degradation. 185 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,320 With the destination true samples of 2008, apparently, the primer for her interest in 186 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,920 the subject in August of 2010, Dr. Ketchum disclosed on the Coast to Coast AM radio program 187 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,440 that she had a scientific paper in the works. 188 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:56,000 The forthcoming paper provided an excuse for her to avoid discussing the results at the 189 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,000 time. 190 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:02,120 However, in the fall of 2010, Ketchum was doing additional interviews about her work. 191 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,920 Ideas about Bigfoot being a type of human were already formed by other Bigfoot researchers. 192 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:12,120 A copyright filing in her name dated September 2010 described a media project related to 193 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,160 quote a new tribe of living humans, end quote. 194 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:20,320 The theme of a book or video was to be quote Sasquatch as a modern human with some genetic 195 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,240 mutations accounting for their physical appearance, end quote. 196 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,360 This copyright notice foreshadowed the results of her DNA study, stating that the project 197 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:34,360 would describe quote complete Sasquatch mitochondrial genome sequence and nuclear DNA deviations, 198 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:35,360 end quote. 199 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,000 Ketchum later brushed aside the notice saying it never came to fruition. 200 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,880 This idea also corresponded to hypotheses proposed by Damon Politis and his book Tribal 201 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,080 Bigfoot published in 2009. 202 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,440 So weird that she's coming to the same conclusion that Politis had in 2009 and is in fact trying 203 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,520 to copyright said thing. 204 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,200 News about Ketchum and the various Bigfoot projects was fed by rumors, speculation, and 205 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,640 opinions that appeared unsourced on the internet. 206 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,120 The social media aspect, especially personal weblogs, sites, and the Facebook network have 207 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,200 provided a near steady stream of both clear and dubious information. 208 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:13,000 Melba herself became active on her own Facebook page in 2009, providing information directly 209 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,000 to the public. 210 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,800 In June 2012, the public page went away and only the private friend page existed. 211 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,720 Several Bigfoot themed blogs dutifully reproduced any news she posted on Facebook verbatim. 212 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,400 She occasionally did address questions about the study on her page but often referred questions 213 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,560 to her publicist, Sally Raimi, who possibly also posted updates on this page. 214 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:37,120 Therefore it was not clear who was actually supplying the content for her Facebook page. 215 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,240 In late 2011, Ketchum provided an update on Facebook that results were complete and the 216 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,400 paper was being submitted for publication. 217 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,360 She told her followers to be patient, good science takes time. 218 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,160 Citing the famous skeptical mantra, quote, extraordinary claims require extraordinary 219 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:52,160 proof. 220 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,940 This is what we are doing, she added. 221 00:12:54,940 --> 00:12:57,400 She appeared confident that her data would stand up to scrutiny. 222 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,080 However, Ketchum herself avoided opportunities for appearing in public. 223 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,720 She was a no show at two conferences in which she was scheduled to speak about Bigfoot DNA, 224 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:11,160 a Bigfoot conference in Hanobia, Oklahoma in October 2011 and in Richland, Washington, 225 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,200 Bigfoot conference in May 2012. 226 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:18,240 For the latter, she completed a DNA 101 presentation via Skype peer connection. 227 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,320 These observers in attendance reported their disappointment to interested Bigfoot bloggers. 228 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,040 The community of Bigfooters expressed their concerns that she was avoiding questioning 229 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,000 by not appearing in public and completely controlling the discussion while everyone waited, hopeful 230 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,240 for concrete results. 231 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,440 However, Ketchum has alleged that she chose not to attend because there was a threat against 232 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,880 her person at one of these events. 233 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,280 Every week, a diligent few searched for the embargoed papers awaiting publication. 234 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:45,480 There are many false alarms. 235 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,520 A prolific blogger named Robert Lindsay was a major informant who published inside information 236 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,360 and leaks from the various Bigfoot projects and activities for several years. 237 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,240 Throughout 2012, he sparked interest in multiple occasions that the Ketchum paper would be 238 00:13:58,240 --> 00:13:59,720 published very soon. 239 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:00,720 It wasn't. 240 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,840 There were rumors that the paper had been submitted to the prestigious journal Nature, 241 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,320 but it had been sent back due to a lack of qualified authors or testable hypothesis. 242 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:14,280 In February 2012, Ketchum implored her followers to have patients saying, quote, our data is 243 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,040 amazing and beautiful and all cutting edge. 244 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:18,040 End quote. 245 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,320 That sounds like a Trump quote right there. 246 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,480 Our data is amazing and beautiful and all cutting edge. 247 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:25,480 It actually really does. 248 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,920 Now that you say it again after you said it sounds like Trump, it absolutely does. 249 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,240 She also noted she was creating a website for non-scientists to be able to access the 250 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,440 paper and understand what it means. 251 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,480 This was seen to be in the works in December 2012 on the DNA Diagnostics website. 252 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,560 Ketchum continued to hurry up and wait by suggesting that revisions were requested for 253 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:50,560 the paper, but it was never made clear if it was actually accepted anywhere for publication. 254 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,760 She bragged that the paper had double digit co-authors, many with PhDs and some university 255 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,000 heads of departments. 256 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,880 In July, she assured followers that the basis were covered and quote, it will be worth the 257 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:02,880 wait. 258 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:03,880 End quote. 259 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,400 Throughout 2012, her supporters in the Bigfoot community grew frustrated by the secrecy and 260 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,680 delays, confidence in the Ketchum project and in Melba herself eroded. 261 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,680 The red flags noted commentators include rumors of infighting among the project members, the 262 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:22,600 fractioning of the original group of participants, the ever-moving release date for the data, 263 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,840 and concerns over the sample origins and the ability to result to withstand scrutiny of 264 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:28,400 the scientific community. 265 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:33,240 To be clear, many scientific papers do take months of waiting and back and forth exchanges 266 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,920 to revise the manuscript prior to publication. 267 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,960 So this frustration by spectators was unfounded and should, in fairness, not have been attributed 268 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,440 to Ketchum creating delays. 269 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,600 Ketchum threw many observers for a loop when she disclosed that she had actually seen the 270 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,800 creatures herself and described them as quote, peaceful and gentle. 271 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:51,800 This was the whole thing. 272 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,600 She was a neutral bystander in this, like just a scientist. 273 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,320 And then she started talking about how she'd actually seen them and she fully believes 274 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,320 in them. 275 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,800 This is going off the rails here quickly. 276 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,640 And the paper hasn't even come out yet. 277 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,080 In April of 2012, she made public a photo she said she took with her mobile phone of 278 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,160 an array of sticks in the forest with the suggestion that it was made by the creatures. 279 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:18,200 This blurry sticks picture incited nasty comments on forums and blogs by a discouraged 280 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,400 audience who bemoaned this unprofessional behavior. 281 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,360 Ketchum claimed to have additional evidence to support the claim that a family of five 282 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,160 playful Sasquatch repeatedly visited a site known as habituation site. 283 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,080 But she did not reveal the location or further details. 284 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:38,120 Her comments stated that her personal experiences were not meant to convince the non-believers. 285 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,040 The DNA study would do that. 286 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,680 Meanwhile, a parallel Bigfoot DNA project was launched by Brian Sykes, professor of 287 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:51,000 human genetics at University of Oxford and Dr. Michelle Sartori, director, Musee de Zoology 288 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,000 in Switzerland. 289 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,080 This Oxford project invited submissions of indeterminate DNA samples as part of a larger 290 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:02,520 inquiry into the genetic relationship between our human species and other hominids. 291 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,800 According to the published schedule for this project, samples were to be collected from 292 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,120 May to September 2012, analyzed from September through November with a paper to be prepared 293 00:17:10,120 --> 00:17:12,200 for publication before the end of 2012. 294 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,880 Because the peer review process does indeed take months and perhaps up to a year, we should 295 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,800 not expect to see the results published until possibly well into 2013. 296 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,920 Dr. Sykes attained a copy of Ketchum's paper to analyze and told me through personal 297 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,400 communications that he has no comment on it, as of the time that this piece was released, 298 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,520 nor any updates on his own project to share. 299 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,040 That is a different tactic from the parade of social leaks Ketchum provided Dr. Meldrum. 300 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:39,320 of Idaho State University as a well-known academic involved in big research, has also 301 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,880 steered clear of the Ketchum project and instead backs the Sykes study, perhaps even by submitting 302 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,120 a sample towards it. 303 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:50,960 Meldrum was also critical in semi-public of the Ketchum, quote, science by press release 304 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:52,400 approach, end quote. 305 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:57,480 It surely did not help Ketchum's reputation that she was associated with Igor Bertsev, 306 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,280 a Russian Yeti researcher. 307 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,760 In recent past, Meldrum expressed a noise with the approach of Bertsev and the Russian 308 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,440 scientists eager about the study of Bigfoot and the native lands. 309 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,720 When fall 2012 came and no paper had yet appeared, things started to turn sour for the Ketchum 310 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:13,720 camp. 311 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,400 In September, Ketchum's public relations person, Sally Raimi, was gone. 312 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:22,920 She was replaced by Robin Lynn Pfeffer, a woman who claimed a family of Bigfoot lived 313 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:24,520 on her land in Michigan. 314 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,680 She refers to them as the forest people. 315 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,520 She is known in the Bigfoot community for her wildly publicized comments that her Bigfoot's 316 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,240 like blueberry bagels. 317 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,800 Pfeffer's however does not appear to have any experience in either science or in public 318 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:38,800 relations. 319 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,120 It is not clear why or how Pfeffer was named as Ketchum's spokesperson. 320 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:47,520 Observers noted in October that Ketchum's lab building in Timson, Texas was closed 321 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,840 and up for lease. 322 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,600 The phone had been disconnected. 323 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,560 One blogger followed up and discovered a backstory of Ketchum's missing payments and her neglect 324 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,120 of the business itself. 325 00:18:56,120 --> 00:19:01,040 The business nevertheless still exists, but at a different mailing address. 326 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,120 Ketchum's key to gaining acceptance for her Bigfoot DNA claims was published in a respective 327 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:06,720 peer-reviewed scientific journal. 328 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,200 But the plan went awry. 329 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:13,200 The complicated bicks of people, secrecy, delays, and promises boiled over in late November 330 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,200 when news of the study was outed by Igor Bertsev. 331 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,680 The self-appointed head of the Russian-based International Center of Hominology, Bertsev 332 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,760 issued this urgent announcement on his Facebook page on November 23rd. 333 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:30,000 Quote, the DNA analysis of the Bigfoot Sasquatch specimen conducted by Dr. Melba Ketchum, the 334 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,080 head of DNA diagnostics, Timson, Texas, has been over. 335 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:35,080 End quote. 336 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:36,240 That doesn't really make any sense. 337 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:37,240 Oh well. 338 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,320 He stated that the team of Americans 90s led by Ketchum analyzed 109 purported samples 339 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:42,320 of the creature. 340 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,960 Ketchum sounded somewhat dismayed when responding to the leak saying, quote, it is unfortunate 341 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,880 that the partial summary of our data was released in this manner. 342 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,140 However, I will be making a formal response in the next few days. 343 00:19:53,140 --> 00:19:58,400 Even though Igor Bertsev released this, it was not Dr. Bertsev's fault, end quote. 344 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,640 She later admitted that possibly misunderstanding due to language and eagerness was why the 345 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,440 Don disclosure agreement was breached. 346 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,200 At this point, she felt that the study must be addressed instead of ignoring the leak, 347 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,440 and that might cause further damage if left unattended. 348 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,400 After the official announcement of the results in November, Ketchum appeared in a few media 349 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:16,400 interviews. 350 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,320 In one, she mentioned that the paper of the study would be accompanied by high-definition 351 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:21,800 video footage of the creature. 352 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,240 The origin of his video is the Ericsson project. 353 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,120 On its website, Ericsson mentions the video and the many samples they collected that were 354 00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:29,920 analyzed for DNA. 355 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:35,000 Back in February 2012, Ketchum had thanked Ericsson for funding support for DNA testing. 356 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,880 None of the footage has been released except for one still shot of a hairy, indeterminate 357 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,600 shape on the forest floor, and here say that the images were all either wonderful or not 358 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:45,600 convincing. 359 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,840 The Ericsson project website went down for a while in November of 2011 when it rumored 360 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,120 that Ericsson had run out of money for it. 361 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:57,280 In resurface in 2012, a few scientists have spoken out showing enthusiasm and interest 362 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:58,720 in the Ketchum results. 363 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,520 Others were scathing in their criticism against her and the entire concept of the study. 364 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:08,800 To fuel further ridicule, the quote, unknown novel and quote, DNA was publicized as angel 365 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,920 DNA by blogger Lindsay. 366 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,880 A few press release outlets included this mention in their pieces Dr. Ketchum denies 367 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:16,360 ever using such a label. 368 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:21,480 David Politis, the director of the North American Bigfoot Research, once again threw support 369 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,640 behind the results and Ketchum saying quote, Dr. Ketchum originally found the combination 370 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:31,080 to unlock Bigfoot DNA and utilized top scientists in various fields to validate the results. 371 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,760 The results were independently verified with the group silently sitting on these findings 372 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:40,240 for months as the results were validated a third and fourth time and quote, if true, 373 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,720 that may explain the delays exhibited through 2010 to 2011. 374 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,440 Politis had more commentary to add regarding the DNA. 375 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:52,080 In the press, his quoted as saying that quote, it falls in the realm of human end quote experts 376 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,960 in the field of human DNA study may wonder why they weren't consulted for her publication. 377 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,280 The worldwide media coverage over the press release from Ketchum on November had not quite 378 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:07,000 died down when on December 6 Igor Bircev was spilling more news on Facebook saying the paper 379 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,200 was rejected by the US journals but is now under review in a Russian journal. 380 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,000 Bircev issued a scathing review of what he considers the closed-minded American science 381 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,280 establishment and the rejection of Bigfoot noting that the creature's existence is accepted 382 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,920 by the public as if scientific truth is somehow based on popular vote. 383 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,840 Response from the Ketchum camp was incoherent with Robin Lynn remarking contrary to Bircev 384 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,640 that the paper was still under review and quote, extremely scientific end quote. 385 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,320 Again we are left wondering what role Bircev was playing with this drama. 386 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,720 There may be some truth in the allegations that reputable science journals could not 387 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,760 touch the study due to its association with Bigfoot. 388 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,760 Because there is no type specimen or any corroborate incredible physical evidence, there is no 389 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:56,200 justification for mentioning a creature known only for folklore in the study. 390 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,880 Scientifically all of this results could say is that the DNA is unidentified. 391 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,200 Which yes, if you're writing it scientifically, you should remain neutral like that. 392 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,480 Yeah, that sounds like a rubber thing to do. 393 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,120 Then the paper finally appears. 394 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:14,480 On February 12, 2013, Ketchum commented on Facebook media outlets. 395 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,520 Buckle up and the next day the paper appeared along with a press release. 396 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:23,760 The study, quote, North American hominins next generation sequencing of three whole 397 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,880 genomes and associated studies, end quote, which analyzed DNA from a total of 111 high 398 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,960 quality samples submitted from across the continent appeared in the inaugural issue 399 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,200 of DeNovo Journal of Science. 400 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:43,200 The co-authors were Ketchum, Wojcowicz, Watts, Spence, Holdzenberg, Toller, Pritchettko, 401 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,920 Zhang, Bollinger, Scholders, and Smith. 402 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,680 The paper describes the conclusion stated earlier in the November pre-paper press release 403 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,640 that both the mitochondrial and nuclear DNA were sequenced. 404 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:00,320 The mitochondrial DNA inherited from the maternal side was human, but the nuclear DNA was not. 405 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:06,680 This consisted of a structural mosaic of, quote, human and novel non-human DNA, end quote. 406 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,560 Upon attempting to access the paper the morning it appeared, I encountered the next huge misstep 407 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:12,560 by Ketchum. 408 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:18,560 The journal DeNovo is a brand new online outlet that consists of one issue with only this 409 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,080 one paper. 410 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:26,280 The website is clunky and amateurishly designed with stock, sciency photos of animals and test 411 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:27,280 tubes. 412 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,920 The strangely placed by now button was in the center, yet on one page the words DeNovo 413 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,440 Open Access floats in a blank box. 414 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,640 For a moment I did think the paper was freely available. 415 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:38,640 Not so. 416 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,280 Clicking on the by now button I was taking to the checkout page that charged $30 to access 417 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:44,280 it. 418 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:45,280 What? 419 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,800 Backing out of the site to look for other reactions I noticed that several bigfoot bloggers 420 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,400 had already obtained complimentary copies, or they had managed to download the paper for 421 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,200 free of a slight glitch. 422 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,360 I requested through email to the address in the press release a complimentary press copy 423 00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:01,360 as well. 424 00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:02,360 The inquiry was not answered. 425 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:06,520 I was provided two review versions of the paper later in the day via other means. 426 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:11,320 Regarding the origin of DeNovo, Ketchum said on the day of the paper release that an unnamed 427 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,480 journal had accepted the paper after peer review was completed, but their lawyer advised them 428 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,440 not to publish due to the disreputable topic. 429 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,640 Instead of continuing to shop the paper to other sources, she decided to acquire the rights 430 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,120 to this unnamed journal. 431 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:29,080 Suspected to be the journal of advanced and multidisciplinary exploration and zoology. 432 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,520 Looking into the history of that journal, investigators found it was registered under 433 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,640 Ketchum's name on January 9th, 2013. 434 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,640 This led to serious ethical questions about the publishing. 435 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:43,760 The DeNovo website was created on February 4th, 2013, just nine days prior to the release 436 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:44,760 of the paper. 437 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,960 Ketchum claims to have documentation of the prior reviews and from the acquisition of 438 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,320 the new journal. 439 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,080 These and any information on which journals previously rejected the paper have not used 440 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,720 yet been released. 441 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,280 In the announcement of the paper, Ketchum mentioned two associated websites, the Sasquatch 442 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,840 Genome Project and the Global Sasquatch Foundation. 443 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,440 Both were produced with what appeared to be the very basic web tools hosted on low volume 444 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,440 servers. 445 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,240 Both sites failed the first day possibly due to the traffic. 446 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,360 Prior to their inaccessibility, I captured some information published on them. 447 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:21,600 On the Sasquatch Genome Project, Ketchum denied she self-published and took a dig at the scientific 448 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:22,600 community. 449 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:27,360 We encountered the worst scientific bias in the peer review process in recent history. 450 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:28,360 End quote. 451 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:29,760 Again, sounds like a Trump quote. 452 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,000 What's her deal? 453 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,240 I guess Trump wouldn't have said recent history. 454 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,960 He called it the Galileo effect and suggested that she was treated unfairly. 455 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,080 Ketchum's explanation for publishing in DeNovo was that she was eager to get the data out 456 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,880 there and not have to deal with further rejections, hinting that all the previous reviewers were 457 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,560 less than decent or open-minded seemingly because they rejected her work. 458 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,080 On the Global Sasquatch Foundation site, the statement appeared, quote, 459 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,600 Due to the efforts of our founder, Dr. Melba Ketchum, it has been proven that Sasquatch 460 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,280 are a human hybrid. 461 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,920 Here at GSF, we have made it a priority to protect these indigenous peoples from being 462 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,080 hunted, harassed, or even killed, end quote. 463 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,640 One could assert that this statement was premature considering the scientific community had not 464 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,920 assessed her conclusion. 465 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,640 Regardless, she had extreme confidence in her results. 466 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,600 The Foundation site also included pictures of stick structures supposedly constructed 467 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,200 by the creatures and a photo of a matted horse mane. 468 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:26,280 An example of what Ketchum had alleged is Sasquatch's braids is in the horse manes. 469 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:31,720 As for the paper itself, it was incomprehensible to those without specialized training in genomics 470 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:32,720 or forensics. 471 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,880 It began with the premise that Sasquatch exists and this study helps to confirm that. 472 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,440 Two days later, Ketchum announced through social media that unnamed, quote, 473 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,120 Top Level Scientist, end quote, volunteered to assess her data. 474 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:49,440 A few days after that, a statement appeared on the Danova website from David Swenson, 475 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,480 a biochemist, who said he reviewed the manuscript and agrees with the conclusion. 476 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,440 The statement, as well as Ketchum's own statement, and those of her spokesperson, 477 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,960 were all riddled with grammatical and typographical errors. 478 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,760 The few experienced geneticists who viewed the paper reported a dismal opinion of it, 479 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,480 noting it made little sense. 480 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,800 The DNA sequences did indeed contain matches to a human chromosome, 11. 481 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,760 A lot of the undetermined DNA and some that in part matched to other animals. 482 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,680 Thus, the whole sequences do not resemble any known animal and are contradictory with 483 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,320 evolutionary biology. 484 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:29,240 In a curious side note, the term Danovo is used in bioinformatics to designate the absence 485 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,840 of a reference genome. 486 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,960 Next generation sequencing technology was used in the study to read the whole genome, 487 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,040 a process that used to be far more time and labor intensive. 488 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,000 There are problems with NGS, Danovo protocols that can lead to poor quality data. 489 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,280 We do not know if the results were properly evaluated prior to concluding that the genome 490 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,400 data could be used and if the interpretation of the results is reasonable. 491 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,580 These factors will likely come into play during the external review of the paper. 492 00:28:55,580 --> 00:28:59,120 Some critics have stated that the DNA may have been contaminated. 493 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,240 Ketchum assures everyone that she fully accounted for contamination issues and dismisses its 494 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,800 allegations citing her own lab's experience with handling forensic crime samples. 495 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,640 The samples have not been made available to others, so there is currently no way for anyone 496 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,420 to run a test to compare results. 497 00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:18,620 There appears to be multiple places where the data quality could have been compromised 498 00:29:18,620 --> 00:29:22,080 regardless of how confident Ketchum is in her results. 499 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,720 Accompanying the official version of the paper was Ericsson's video which supposedly showed 500 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,160 a sleeping Sasquatch. 501 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,160 Made public a day later showed a brown furry mass sleeping on a woodland floor. 502 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,320 Ericsson project claimed that the DNA was obtained from this individual named Matilda, 503 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,200 which was analyzed as part of the Ketchum study providing a link to a real creature. 504 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,200 The promised high definition video evidence was not made available. 505 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,760 Within a week, researcher Bill Munns claimed that he had acquired still shots of Matilda 506 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,840 whereby the face strongly resembled Chewbacca, a tall, hairy, bigfoot assed creature from 507 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,220 the Star Wars movies. 508 00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:59,440 If that wasn't enough to increase the derision of Ketchum's work, what may be the most 509 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,520 feeling fine came from careful readers on a skeptical forum. 510 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:08,040 Three of the references cited in Ketchum's paper as prior published research on the creatures 511 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,840 were discovered to be questionable in validity. 512 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:16,480 One was an openly stated April Fools prank that concluded the Yeti was actually an ungulate, 513 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,960 hooved mammal, in that its resemblance to apes was due to convergent evolution. 514 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,920 When confronted with this information, Ketchum denied responsibility saying she was told 515 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,560 to include all references by one reviewer. 516 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,640 She had not conceded that she knew they weren't reputable scientific works. 517 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:33,960 So what does Ketchum have? 518 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,720 Is it human DNA with an undocumented variation? 519 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,400 Is it an animal sample contaminated with human DNA or vice versa? 520 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,960 Is it a concocted hoax? 521 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,160 Or is it actual unique DNA that may point to the existence of an unknown hominin? 522 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:52,840 In a revealing interview on Coast to Coast AM, she told the public she is not after glory, 523 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,600 would rather avoid the publicity and has turned down money making offers. 524 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,560 She admitted that she wouldn't tackle this project if given another chance due to the 525 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,200 trouble it created for her. 526 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,960 She admits she was not privy to the culture of Sasquatchery that exists where many players 527 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,960 try to either one up or discredit the other person. 528 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:14,760 She is solidly convinced that she has enough data to unquestionably make the case for the 529 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,120 existence of Bigfoot even without a type specimen. 530 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,160 In the Coast to Coast AM conversation, she likened them to special forces soldiers who 531 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,520 cannot be seen unless they want to be. 532 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,920 She has completely accepted that they exist across North American, wishes them to be 533 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:30,880 protected as a tribe of people. 534 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,120 In the presentation of this potentially urshaking discovery, Ketchum lost every shred of scientific 535 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:42,280 credibility through her short circuiting genetic experts and the process of peer review. 536 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,440 Instead she attempted to appeal to the popular Bigfoot enthusiast crowd as their savior who 537 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:47,720 has the goods. 538 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:48,920 Even that backfired. 539 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,880 She continued to make excuses instead of admitting her errors in poor judgment. 540 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,600 She censors those who point out these serious problems or ask questions about them. 541 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,360 She has not exhibited cooperation with geneticists who are experts in human DNA. 542 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,640 The people supporting her are not usually helpful to her cause. 543 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,440 Her disclosures about her own personal sightings and obvious missteps in the process have done 544 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,880 much to sabotage her own credibility. 545 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,400 It's not a pleasant picture. 546 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,400 For now, Ketchum's chapter in the saga of Bigfoot remains unresolved. 547 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,460 There's one thing we can be certain of. 548 00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:20,400 This is not the end of the Bigfoot story. 549 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,400 The legend will live on in the hearts. 550 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,400 That's the end of the article. 551 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,740 What do you think of it? 552 00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:32,040 Having not been able to read it in any way, even the abstract and only hearing critique? 553 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:38,360 The guy that wrote The Guy or Girl did a great job, I think. 554 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,440 Way better than it seems she did at putting out this information. 555 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,920 It really felt like she was open to actually seeing it and it being Bigfoot. 556 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,840 This is a terrible story. 557 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,440 There was no way this is coming out good. 558 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,480 What business does she have doing DNA? 559 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,040 Sharon or Melba? 560 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,040 Melba. 561 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,000 Melba does have a DNA lab. 562 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,680 We're actually going to talk about that a bit. 563 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,680 She does have a background in veterinary studies. 564 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:05,880 She has her doctor. 565 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,040 Veterinary medicine. 566 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,840 Why would that lead her to DNA diagnostics? 567 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,760 I think she found an opening with it. 568 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,240 She does have specialization in it. 569 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:20,640 She has worked with courts in the past and provided expert opinions on DNA analysis. 570 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,600 We're going to get that to DNA. 571 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:30,440 It's all over the map and I'm really not sure if we could say it's non-human, human. 572 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:31,440 Exactly what she's done. 573 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,280 She's done countless, but that will come up in a minute here. 574 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,840 I mean, I know I'm reading her biography. 575 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,680 It says she does DNA diagnostics, but what makes her an expert in that? 576 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,400 I believe she does have training in it and courses, but I couldn't actually point to 577 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,320 the specific courses because all I know is she has a veterinary doctorate. 578 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,800 That's all I'm looking at here. 579 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,720 I can't find anything else. 580 00:33:53,720 --> 00:34:00,400 I also see here that he did a big foot and giant discoveries with George Knapp for four 581 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,200 hours to full coast AM. 582 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:11,160 He's also planned at that point on sampling giants and elongated skulls for DNA. 583 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,920 So I'm surprised that George Knapp spent that much time with her. 584 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,360 At that point, she's a DNA expert. 585 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:23,320 And I will say I've listened to a couple of the podcasts she's been on in the last three 586 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:24,560 years, I would say. 587 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,960 She still asserts that this paper shows exactly what she wants it to show. 588 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,760 She receives no pushback from anybody. 589 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,320 That's the thing about this freaking community. 590 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,360 Like they're just giving the people what they want to hear because it's so fringe. 591 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,760 Well that and the broadcaster as well, they don't want to lose access to these people 592 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:43,760 so they don't do pushback. 593 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,880 I think it's as simple as saying that. 594 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,680 Or they don't want to do the work because if you're hosting a daily show, like it's 595 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,960 really hard to actually critically analyze everything that you're going to be talking 596 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:53,960 about. 597 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:54,960 That's true. 598 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:55,960 That's true. 599 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,800 But I don't know, they don't critically analyze anything. 600 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,960 You think if you're doing a daily show, at least like maybe once in a while, you'd have 601 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:01,960 the time to do it? 602 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,000 Well, I'm surprised at George Knapp because George Knapp is pretty good. 603 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,320 I usually pretty good. 604 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,520 I listened to one today where she was on, oh, what was it? 605 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:12,520 Spaced out radio. 606 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,760 I've never heard them before I was listening to it. 607 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,480 Clearly enough, he was posting from Central British Columbia, so he's somewhere near me. 608 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:25,200 She brought up that she saw Bigfoot's out of fence mind communicating with something. 609 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,680 And then also that the Kandahar giant is real, which we've covered in the past. 610 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,120 It is that story is so made up. 611 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:38,400 And I realized that every single link that I can find to get to her is also deadwind. 612 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,640 Yeah, everything's down. 613 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:40,840 She still does shows. 614 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:42,120 She goes on very select shows. 615 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,880 She maybe does for interviews a year now, I think somewhere in that range of like two 616 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:47,880 to seven. 617 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,200 She thinks she would exist somewhere. 618 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,600 Oh, she does, Chelsea. 619 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,040 I'm going to send you to her. 620 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:54,240 Which one am I on here? 621 00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:56,040 Sorry, I have way too many links open. 622 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,320 Her GoFundMe page. 623 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,040 Looks like the Sasquatch genome project website. 624 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,600 Well, there's the picture. 625 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,400 So she has asked for $20,000 to help fun. 626 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,400 Augman. 627 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:14,440 She has Bigfoot, Dogvan, Giant and others DNA that she now wants to study and she made 628 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:15,600 $20,000. 629 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:16,720 And good news, everybody. 630 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:21,440 She has $26,000 as of reading a podcast. 631 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,640 So she still does have a following out there. 632 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,440 This is crazy. 633 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,240 The even crazier thing I found out about her, Chelsea. 634 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:36,320 If you search her name on Amazon, she has a couple books that she wrote that I don't 635 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:37,840 know how to describe them. 636 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,480 They're either young adult fiction about a family of Bigfoot's living in the forest 637 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,480 or their romance erotic Bigfoot novels. 638 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:46,840 I can't tell. 639 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:52,200 But she was writing these just after her DNA scientific paper came out because they start 640 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:53,200 in 2014. 641 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:54,440 Let me take a look. 642 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,640 But I also have to say about this GoFundMe. 643 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,840 At least David Wilcock is on YouTube working for his donation. 644 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,480 He has a grandma. 645 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:11,800 He will whore himself out there for every dollar. 646 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,000 Why can't I find this? 647 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,000 I'm an Ascendant. 648 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,720 I'm sad I miss that life. 649 00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:17,720 Stick for his memories. 650 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:19,240 Oh, they're holding hands. 651 00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:22,840 Yeah, I can't tell if it's supposed to be young adult or if it's supposed to be romance. 652 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:23,840 Is that a Bigfoot? 653 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,680 Is that supposed to be a Bigfoot? 654 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,600 Chelsea, do you want to read the quote from the book? 655 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,960 Oh, I was going to read the review. 656 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:32,600 They're all five stars. 657 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:33,600 Please just read that. 658 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:34,600 Okay, quote. 659 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,440 If only I hadn't gotten lost. 660 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,720 If I hadn't strayed into the woods, none of this would be happening. 661 00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:42,600 I wouldn't break Garrett's heart. 662 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,600 I wouldn't have hurt my parents and my brother. 663 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,600 Sorry, I wouldn't have. 664 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,320 It's all my fault. 665 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,200 If only I hadn't been so foolish. 666 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,840 She shided herself as tears ran down and a torrent down her face. 667 00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:58,840 What have I done? 668 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,440 Lucy McKay has decisions to make that will change her life forever. 669 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:09,120 The form between the mystical and oftentimes dangerous world of the forest people and her 670 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,520 normal teenage life with her family, she must choose. 671 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:19,200 But how can she, when she longs for both, only Gracie can decide the forest people? 672 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,680 Yeah, that's the Bigfoot. 673 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:21,680 That's what she calls them. 674 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,600 That's their tribe she wants to protect. 675 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:24,800 That's fucking weird. 676 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:25,800 Exactly. 677 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:32,320 Now, imagine you want to be taken seriously as a scientific author of a very serious 678 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:37,360 Bigfoot paper and within the year you write, I can't tell Chelsea. 679 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,520 Young adult or romance novel? 680 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:40,520 Which one is it? 681 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:41,520 Young adult for sure. 682 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:42,520 Look at the picture on the back. 683 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:43,520 Oh, and their teeth? 684 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:44,520 Yeah. 685 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:45,520 Do you think this is AI? 686 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:46,520 No, this is before AI. 687 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,640 And Chelsea, there's another one called Mystic Forest Wishes and it has the same picture 688 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:51,640 on the back. 689 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,920 Yeah, do you want to read some of the reviews? 690 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,080 They're all five star. 691 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,280 Gracie and Zari's adventures continue. 692 00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:59,800 Great sequel. 693 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,920 The stories of Gracie and Zari continue in this book. 694 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:09,920 Gracie struggles with teenage angst as she tries to try Slyman Balsari's words and her 695 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,600 own at the same time. 696 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:17,320 Learning to live in two worlds opens up news perspectives and makes bought her and Zari 697 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:18,320 better people. 698 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,200 That's thirsty for truth that reviewed that. 699 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,480 Booty, love, love, love this book. 700 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:24,480 Next book, please. 701 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:25,480 Love this one. 702 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:26,480 Amazon customer. 703 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:27,480 Fantastic book. 704 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,480 It's just me wishing I didn't have to wait for the next in the series. 705 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,440 Can I mark it helpful? 706 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,440 That's it. 707 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:34,440 Well, I guess they're- 708 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,240 Someone's getting it for their birthday. 709 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:42,800 But yeah, like I said, Chelsea, like everything to do with this journal and this paper disappeared. 710 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:49,280 As far as I can tell immediately upon it being released, it's still touted to this day as 711 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,480 a very real scientific journal paper that needs to be taken seriously. 712 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,360 That is so bizarre and it's nowhere to be found. 713 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,520 David Politis, June 24th, 2019 on Coast to Coast AM, quote from this episode. 714 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:01,520 No, well, yes, I get it. 715 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,960 In the second hour, Politis talked about various types of evidence for Bigfoot, including 716 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,280 Melba Ketchum's DNA testing, which indicated that the creature is actually a type of human 717 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:11,280 hybrid. 718 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,280 This was six years after that debacle of it being released. 719 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:17,840 That is messed up. 720 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,080 She knows that is not real. 721 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,960 I also just say, I have to say this quick, this is going back a little bit. 722 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:29,240 I tried to find the book myself on Amazon and I'm looking at a bunch of Ketchum and 723 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:31,960 it turns out I spelled your name wrong. 724 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:32,960 Okay. 725 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,640 There's some Melinda's Ketchum. 726 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,680 It looks pretty good. 727 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:38,840 That's probably more reputable. 728 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:39,840 I will say that. 729 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:40,840 Probably. 730 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,200 It looks pretty nice. 731 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:49,400 I don't really know what Melba's doing outside of this Bigfoot and was I cryptid DNA study 732 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,280 because I have to redo this other article I found. 733 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,160 In June 2021, Dr. Ketchum was accused by the Harris County Public Defender's Office of 734 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,080 professional misconduct related to her forensic analysis in a criminal trial. 735 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,040 Well, Ketchum committed misconduct when she testified about the forensic analysis of canine 736 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,920 DNA while knowing her laboratory was not accredited under Texas law. 737 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,960 The complaint also alleged Ketchum presented incomplete and misleading testimony regarding 738 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:19,360 the DNA analysis in the case by failing to explain the limitation of her opinion. 739 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,480 The commission finds the testimony of Ketchum in the trial was incomplete and poses substantial 740 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,680 risk of misleading the trial of fact. 741 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:30,680 The commission also found Ketchum was aware of and consciously disregarded the accepted 742 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,840 standard of practice as set forth in purviewed articles she co-authored. 743 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,520 Ketchum's testimony constitute professional misconduct because she was aware of and consciously 744 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,120 disregarded any accepted standard of practice. 745 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,120 Oh shit. 746 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,080 Through Dr. Ketchum's testimony in the trial, though Dr. Ketchum's testimony in the trial 747 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,400 was separate from her Bigfoot research, they are closely related. 748 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,840 For example, her analysis in both cases involved misidentification of mitochondrial sequencing 749 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,560 of non-human hairs overstating the certainty of her conclusion. 750 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,920 And just regarding accepted standards of practice in her field, her expert testimony misconduct 751 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,920 is in some ways more serious than that of her Bigfoot research as it occurred in the 752 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,880 context of a criminal trial and could have contributed to an innocent person being wrongly 753 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,880 convicted or a guilty person's going free. 754 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,360 And I will end it there. 755 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:21,040 Turns out she's not that good at it and it was funny because in some of the interviews 756 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,960 I was listening to she said that the Bigfoot paper impacted her work with the court because 757 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,440 she gets discredited for working on the Bigfoot case when really they're pointing to it as 758 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,640 very shitty genetic analysis. 759 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,920 Not because you did Bigfoot work. 760 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,840 People are probably pretty quick to accept that as an answer who we're looking for, who 761 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,000 are really heated about stuff like this coming up. 762 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,000 That's pretty damning. 763 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,840 This is a court that saying, you know, you're not properly doing your work as a professional. 764 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,480 And particularly in the exact same way that you're claiming you've done your work in the 765 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,800 Bigfoot project, not claiming it in there, just kind of being able to cross reference 766 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:00,800 it that way. 767 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:01,800 Just right there. 768 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,280 You can tell right away that she doesn't do her work as a professional. 769 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,500 She's able to get 26 grand from people to continue on. 770 00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:12,720 So I guess we may have a follow up episode on Dr. Melba Ketchum at some time in the near 771 00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:13,720 future. 772 00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:16,160 I hope she keeps putting out books. 773 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,920 See, it's been 10 years since the last one. 774 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,960 I think this might be the conclusion of the Mystic Forest, unfortunately. 775 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,280 She has some people that are waiting. 776 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,840 Well, that's crazy. 777 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,080 Thank you to the person who did the fricking. 778 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,960 Yeah, Sharon, you know what? 779 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,000 Sharon Hill, your life's end to the skeptic community. 780 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,720 That was a fantastic breakdown of something that had to be done at the time because you 781 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:41,480 can't find it anymore. 782 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,800 Better listen to the podcast for free for the rest of her life. 783 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:46,920 We'll send her a free copy in the email. 784 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,040 Yeah, but if floppy disk. 785 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,040 I gotta say, a comment, of course, spring came in the latest. 786 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,080 It's six years later and he comes saying that this is credible work. 787 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,240 God, I love that. 788 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:00,320 I'm sure you could find it other places. 789 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,680 I just, I always check coast to coast because I know he's on there and they actually do 790 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,120 a fairly good job of working down what's discussed. 791 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,480 So I was like, I bet it's in here and Sharon out. 792 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,400 What's the point in him? 793 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,320 He's going to call him out on it. 794 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,240 Like these guys only go on shows that don't call him out. 795 00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:20,880 He's so hard pressed to give an answer of what's missing for when one is, which I think 796 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,560 he's now saying is UFOs. 797 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,640 I'm really behind on him. 798 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:32,360 But why specifically if you're so cautious to not be discredited by saying something, 799 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,760 why would you get behind someone like that doesn't make sense? 800 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,600 But he's he's an asshole. 801 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,480 So he's on the list. 802 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,400 The show that's coming, we know it. 803 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:46,960 We did an episode on him at the asshole episode, but the asshole episode on David Blatis was 804 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,160 one of the episodes we got pushed back on to. 805 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:50,960 That's where the was that the in a nap. 806 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,000 Yeah, that was the in a laughter episode. 807 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,000 Oh yeah, it was. 808 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,880 I love a name laughter, but in any event, I have been Taylor here with Chelsea. 809 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,160 We are journey to the fringe. 810 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:05,360 Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week. 811 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,680 Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe. 812 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:13,880 If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe or follow, 813 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,040 depending on what venue you are listening to us through. 814 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:23,200 Also please, if possible, leave a five star review as that really helps us in the algorithms. 815 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:28,000 Should you wish to interact with us, please check us out on your social media of choice. 816 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,760 I bet you we are there. 817 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,240 And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell 818 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:37,600 us that we're wrong and terrible either way, please send us an email. 819 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,120 At Journey to the Fringe at gmail.com. 820 00:45:41,120 --> 00:46:07,880 For now, I'll see you in the next episode.