1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,520 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe. 2 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,600 Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, where 9 out of 10 dentists said, what the fuck 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,880 are you talking about when asked if they would recommend listening to Journey to the Fringe 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:23,400 on a daily basis. 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,600 We are your podcast hosts who, to get the bluntness of a dentist that you need in your 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:33,280 surveys, we had to contact them outside of the workplace and my god it is hard to track 7 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,560 down 10 dentists. 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,760 Anyhow, that's none of your business, we just need to know that stat. 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,120 We are your podcast hosts, Taylor and Chelsea. 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:46,320 Here today, I think looking at a historic asshole is, would that, I don't know, Chelsea 11 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,320 it's your person, so I, I don't need to. 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:53,240 I'm going to take you on a journey of asshole today and I might even redefine it. 13 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:54,240 Okay. 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,200 And I don't mean to get you excited right off the hop here, well I do a little because 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:58,760 we're here for a podcast. 16 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,720 And we gotta hook you for like 45 to 50 minutes. 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:07,240 Yeah, so I hope that got you excited enough to listen to the whole episode. 18 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:13,320 And here I am today feeling like I'm having deja vu after the last 48 hours. 19 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:15,880 We're going to take a look at John Keel today. 20 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:22,120 Who should be going by Alva John Keel, but instead he goes by John A. Keel. 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:28,840 And he's known probably best in my realm for the Mothman prophecies. 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,560 He's come up in a few episodes before. 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:37,160 Like he has come up originally in the Mothman episodes and in the Men in Black episodes. 24 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,840 Briefly, yeah. 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,760 This is going to be a two perter. 26 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,680 Today I'm going to look at John Keel and next episode I'm going to take a look at the Mothman 27 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,400 prophecies itself. 28 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:55,520 To get ready for this, I listened to a beautiful art bell, Coast to Coast AM episode in which 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,680 he interviews John Keel for the first time. 30 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,120 And boy was that boring listen. 31 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,200 The guy was a writer, not a talker. 32 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,680 Yeah, no, he sure was. 33 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:13,200 Anyway, from his Wikipedia quote, Keel is considered, I don't think the quote was supposed 34 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:14,200 to start here. 35 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,080 I think it was supposed to start here. 36 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,080 What? 37 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:18,080 No. 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:23,440 One of you apologies, most widely read and influential authors end quote. 39 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,280 As a researcher, he was both original and controversial. 40 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:33,280 Richard Hadham, the screenwriter for the Mothman prophecies, has described Keel as the hunter 41 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:38,760 S. Thompson of paranormal writers, which I reject by the way, just completely. 42 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:39,760 Why? 43 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,960 Did he have like a bone to pick with Nixon? 44 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:49,800 He just kind of travels all over the place and interviewing people and given his opinion 45 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:50,800 on things. 46 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:51,800 I don't know. 47 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:52,800 I don't see it. 48 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,280 I'm a huge Hunter S. Thompson fan. 49 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:55,480 I don't get that. 50 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:56,880 I just reject that. 51 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,400 I don't see any similarities between them. 52 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,440 So anyhow, that's that. 53 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:06,520 Keel was born in Hornel, New York, the son of a singer and band leader. 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:12,680 His parents divorced early on and Keel was raised by his grandparents in Perry, New York 55 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,520 until his mother remarried. 56 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:21,000 He was fascinated by magic from an early age and was known as Houdini by his friends. 57 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:26,240 He loved reading about magic, humor, science, travel, and aviation. 58 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:31,560 His first story was published in a Magicians magazine when he was 12 years old, which is 59 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:32,960 like super young. 60 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,280 At age 14, he was determined to become a writer. 61 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:41,120 He had a column in the Perry Herald named Scraping the Keel. 62 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:47,280 He published a science fiction fanzine named The Lunarite and he routinely sent stories 63 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,360 to magazines in New York. 64 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:55,320 At the age of 16, he had taken all of the science courses at his school and decided 65 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,280 to quit school and write full time. 66 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,280 As you do when you run out of science. 67 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:01,560 I am just curious. 68 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,480 How many science courses? 69 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,480 All of them. 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:06,480 Okay. 71 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:07,480 Both. 72 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:08,480 Yes. 73 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,000 All two of them. 74 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:15,240 And who even knows what grade those went up to in those days. 75 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:16,600 That's what I'm a little worried about. 76 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,720 I feel like that's maybe an exaggeration and spoiler alert. 77 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,960 I feel like this guy is known for his exaggerations. 78 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,600 Well, I don't know about that. 79 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:25,600 Okay. 80 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:26,600 Okay. 81 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:32,760 At 17, he relocated to New York City to make a living as a writer and he lived in Greenwich 82 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,760 Village and became the editor of a poetry magazine. 83 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:42,240 He worked as a freelance contributor to newspapers, script writer for local radio and television 84 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,520 outlets and author of pulp articles such as Are You a Repressed Sex Fiend? 85 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,320 That actually makes a lot of sense. 86 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:50,880 The writings I've read at least. 87 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,960 Sorry, are you questioning yourself or is this with regards to John Keel? 88 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:55,960 regards to Keel. 89 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:56,960 Okay. 90 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,520 Thank you for allowing me to clarify that. 91 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:05,520 When he was 18, he had a strange but classic illumination experience in his furnished room 92 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,000 off Times Square. 93 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:13,120 He remembered the room filled with an indescribable light, a pinkish glow, and his mind flooded 94 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:14,840 with a torrent of information. 95 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:20,040 I actually can't find any more information on that at all other than that one or two 96 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:21,040 sentences. 97 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,760 Well, it would just be coming from him, right? 98 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,040 Like it doesn't seem like anybody else is involved, so there would be no other sources. 99 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:29,800 It would think. 100 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,080 In 1951, he was drafted into the US Army during the Korean War. 101 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:39,360 He spent his military years in Frankfurt of all places because he had worked with radio 102 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,440 and television working mostly for the American Forces Network. 103 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:49,080 Some of his programming ideas, a remote broadcast from the Great Pyramid, another from Frankenstein's 104 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,880 Castle, earned him a great deal of publicity. 105 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,720 Because he had worked with radio and television, he was assigned to the radio. 106 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,200 Within one year, he was the chief of productions for the network. 107 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:06,520 He claimed that while in the army, he was trained in psychological warfare as a propaganda 108 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:07,520 writer. 109 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:12,920 It seems to me, from what I was able to find, that that is the claim. 110 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:19,760 Everything else just stated that he was in like broadcasting in the army, so I don't 111 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,880 know what to do with that information. 112 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,800 After this time with the military, he was a foreign radio correspondent in Paris, Berlin, 113 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,440 Rome, and Egypt. 114 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:34,120 When his two years of military service ended, he was offered and accepted a civilian job 115 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:35,360 for the army. 116 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,800 At the age of 24, he resigned and traveled for four years around the Middle East and 117 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:47,760 Southeast Asia, similar to Billy Meyer, but I believe Keel keeps both of his arms. 118 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,280 Pretty sure he died with both of them. 119 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:50,280 Oh, that was a spoiler. 120 00:06:50,280 --> 00:06:52,800 Well, maybe he got it back at some point. 121 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:53,800 Maybe. 122 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,600 I mean, who's to say, given the shit that he's seen, he tried to find performers of 123 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:04,960 the Indian rope trick, investigate Akirs and Yogis, and he even tried to track the Yeti. 124 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,840 The journey became his first published book, Jadu. 125 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:11,840 A lot of people really like this book. 126 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,160 That's all I have to say about that. 127 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,040 But it sounds like it's fiction though, right? 128 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:18,880 Like not true story. 129 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:19,880 Sounds like it is true. 130 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,880 Hold on, let's see. 131 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:27,960 Is Jadu fiction or non-fiction? 132 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,280 iPhone in Canada.ca. 133 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,880 I knew it. 134 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:33,880 It's non-fiction. 135 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,880 According to iPhone in Canada.ca. 136 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,200 It's a reliable source. 137 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,240 I don't know why we use any other websites. 138 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:45,800 You can get all your news. 139 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,560 You can buy his stuff. 140 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:56,360 And when Jadu was published in 1957, he moved back to NYC and promoted it by performing with 141 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,360 Cobras in the window of the Midtown Aquarium at Times Square. 142 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,920 I'm sorry, what? 143 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:10,200 He performed with Cobras in the window of the Midtown Aquarium at Times Square. 144 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,880 We know how he performed with the Cobras. 145 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:19,800 No, I would assume that it was similar to Britney Spears' famous performance of, what 146 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,320 was that, Toxic? 147 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,160 Sure, he's got a sexy getup. 148 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:33,040 I'm just like, in my mind, I'm picturing the Indian flute player, the snake charmer, like 149 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,040 that. 150 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,240 But I have no idea where he'd pick that up. 151 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,360 And also he was in Korea, which is not known for its Cobras. 152 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,440 Oh, he was in Korea. 153 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:43,440 Right. 154 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,520 That raises further questions. 155 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:48,520 I get it. 156 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,520 iPhone Canada.ca. 157 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,280 It's a huge distraction. 158 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:55,280 I get it. 159 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,120 Stop, turn, close the tab. 160 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,280 Intention. 161 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,280 He also did many TV and radio appearances. 162 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:06,520 He suffered a bit of writer's block after this and turned to editing the magazine Echo. 163 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,520 Could it be all the poison from the Cobras? 164 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:09,520 Could be. 165 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,640 Because he was just bitten constantly. 166 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:12,800 I have to assume. 167 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,160 He has no background for it. 168 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,360 Duncan Wagnalls also hired him as a science and geography editor. 169 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:21,880 What does that even mean? 170 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,600 During the 60s, he worked for television. 171 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,080 He was the chief writer for lots of shows I've never heard of, so I didn't even know 172 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,080 them because. 173 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,080 Oh, I'm sorry. 174 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:32,440 I thought it was just. 175 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:37,200 I thought the biography was vague and that he just worked for television. 176 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,000 This is of course my notes. 177 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,600 Right, right, right. 178 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,480 Yes, that's my vagueness. 179 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,360 He wrote some novels using the pseudo-nim, Harry Gibbs. 180 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,400 In 1966, he wrote a fiction novel named The Ficklefinger of Feet. 181 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,480 It sold an estimated 600,000 copies. 182 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,000 Okay, but that one has to be fiction. 183 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,360 Yeah, I would assume so. 184 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,280 It would have to be, but who's going to look and tell us? 185 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:09,120 Yeah, I mean, I don't know if iPhone in Canada.ca has that kind of stuff. 186 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:14,160 In 1966, Playboy asked him to write an article about UFOs. 187 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,560 That's what he called them on the Art Bell Show. 188 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:20,320 The magazine, but the work was rejected and never printed. 189 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:25,920 Jay Allen Heineck actually ended up writing the article, and Keele had however become 190 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,400 hooked on the subject after this. 191 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:33,280 I feel like I would be too pissed to continue on with it if my article was rejected, but 192 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,800 that's all I got to say. 193 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:41,040 He then traveled around the country interviewing witnesses and writing dozens of articles. 194 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,600 The phenomenon he learned took its toll on its investigators. 195 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:50,240 He entered a shadowy world where black cars vanished on country roads. 196 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:57,480 Meaningless messages turned up in hotel rooms, and his phone and mail suffered strange interceptions. 197 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:03,600 In 1966, he made repeated visits to Point Pleasant, West Virginia, then the site of the 198 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,240 particularly active, monster and UFO flap. 199 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:13,040 The result was one of his most popular books, The Mothman Prophecies and Operation Trojan 200 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:14,040 Horse. 201 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,280 Along the way, he also put out a lively newsletter. 202 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:23,800 Anomaly wrote a regular column for SAGA and published several classic books on Fortiana. 203 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:33,800 It's Fortiana. 204 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,920 I've never heard of Fortiana because like Fortians is a thing. 205 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,960 No, Fortian, yeah, because of Charles Fort. 206 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:40,960 Yeah. 207 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,560 Fortian, but there's an A at the end of it. 208 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:43,560 Fortiana. 209 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:44,560 Could that just be a typo? 210 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:45,560 I don't know. 211 00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:46,560 Okay. 212 00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:50,440 The material was used in his book's Operation Trojan Horse. 213 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,640 He also made repeated visits to Point Pleasant, West Virginia and investigating... 214 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,600 Oh no, Fortiana is a thing. 215 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:57,600 It is. 216 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:58,600 The Charles Fort impetus. 217 00:11:58,600 --> 00:11:59,600 Yeah, that's what they thought. 218 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:00,600 Fortiana. 219 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,480 His interviews and thoughts concerning UFOs were published in magazines such as Flying 220 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,420 Saucer Review, Flying Saucer, SAGA, and Saucer News. 221 00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:15,240 He was a technical advisor to the Library of Congress 1968-69 and special consultant to 222 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:22,800 the Office of Scientific Research and Bureau of Radiology 1968-71 before becoming a consultant 223 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,240 to the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. 224 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,800 Interesting turn at the end there. 225 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,380 He was a member of the Screenwriters Guild FYI, which makes sense because he had so much 226 00:12:32,380 --> 00:12:34,480 background in the television. 227 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,080 Yeah, he worked long extensive hours in television. 228 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,280 Yeah, that's what I said. 229 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,000 So glad we're keeping up. 230 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,400 Keel actually invented the term Men in Black in an article for the Men's Adventure magazine 231 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,080 SAGA published 1967. 232 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,880 He was in Men's Adventure magazine? 233 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:53,880 Yeah. 234 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:54,880 I love those old ones. 235 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,080 Have you ever looked at the covers for these? 236 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,080 They're fantastic. 237 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:00,080 One second. 238 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:01,080 I'm going to take a look. 239 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:02,080 You keep talking. 240 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,080 I'm going to take a look. 241 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:04,080 I don't think it is. 242 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:10,280 On the back of my Mothman prophecies book, it just says, quote, John A. Keel was a prominent 243 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:15,600 journalist and ufologist credited with coining the term Men in Black. 244 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,440 He died in 2009, end quote. 245 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,400 I love that legacy for him. 246 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,960 That's literally all it says on the back of my book. 247 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,920 Okay, Chelsea, this is Men's Adventure magazine. 248 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,640 Let me take a look. 249 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,400 Most wanted Wild West issue. 250 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:30,400 Oh, that's nice. 251 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:31,400 Look at the Moth. 252 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,400 What's up with the guy with the ripped shirt? 253 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,400 The thing on the bottom. 254 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:35,400 Men's Conquest. 255 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:36,400 Hold on. 256 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,800 Go back to the main one. 257 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,520 Look at this guy with his ripped shirt third from the left. 258 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:42,520 Yeah, with the bats. 259 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:43,520 Yeah. 260 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:44,520 See, that's just Men's Magazine. 261 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,960 So that's not Men's Adventure magazine, but Bloodmad Mat of the Lost World. 262 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,360 Totally different magazine. 263 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:51,680 What's that look on his face? 264 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:54,080 Like, that's just somebody saying it's a living. 265 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,480 I make that face a lot. 266 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:57,480 Yeah. 267 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:02,720 Like, did the bats say something really awkward, but he still has to work beside them? 268 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:03,720 Yeah, that's it. 269 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,720 He didn't just say that, did he? 270 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,120 There's a cowboy in his bear. 271 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,600 OK, so the adventure ones like are more dangerous. 272 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,320 Oh, yeah, no, these are a lot of fun. 273 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,520 There's actually the Behind the Bastards episode that is just reading old Men's Adventure 274 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,800 magazine stories is pretty good. 275 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,880 That does sound like. 276 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,520 One word like this man has a love affair with this woman and she gets eaten by crabs and 277 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:26,520 yes. 278 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,760 No, I think I listened to that episode. 279 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:29,760 Yeah, look at that. 280 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,640 Look at that racism right there. 281 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:32,640 Oh, wow. 282 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,000 Martin O'Hare's House of Forbidden Women. 283 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,600 Murder is my job. 284 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,600 The kicked happy amateur versus the professional. 285 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,640 This is for the United Nations report. 286 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,720 That's all one title right there. 287 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,840 Oh, man, he just punched out an indigenous person. 288 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:50,840 That's a punch. 289 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,080 The woman chasing crew of the Pacific Stranges Convoy. 290 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,520 OK, sorry, you can continue. 291 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,240 I just I needed to show you some of that. 292 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,240 Oh, I really like these. 293 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,240 Is it pretty nice? 294 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,240 Look at this guy, bottom left. 295 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,240 There's something. 296 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,240 He said something on fire. 297 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:03,240 Who's Al? 298 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:10,600 How to prolong your sex life and Hemingway's private war with Adolf Hitler. 299 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,840 Oh, is that Hemingway that set that thing on fire? 300 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,800 Probably that's a Hemingway thing to do. 301 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,720 Oh, look at that guy. 302 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:18,720 He's a karate master. 303 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:19,840 Oh, no, he's a pirate. 304 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:20,840 Yeah. 305 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,800 OK, OK, back to your thing. 306 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:28,960 Keel really loves the topic because he writes these books that I haven't already mentioned. 307 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:36,040 Creatures from Time and Space 1970, reprinted as the complete guide to mysterious beings 308 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:37,040 1994. 309 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:38,720 Oh, I have that in my library. 310 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,320 My you call it wish list. 311 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:41,320 Want to read about it. 312 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:42,320 Which one? 313 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:43,320 Sorry, Chelsea. 314 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:44,320 I was too. 315 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,440 I was distracted by the spy trap they baited with sex. 316 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,040 It's either that or I can't. 317 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,040 It's not. 318 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:51,040 There's no one between. 319 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,520 There's so many distractions on the Internet now. 320 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,000 It's the complete guide to mysterious beings. 321 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,240 1994. 322 00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,440 Our haunted planet. 323 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,480 He wrote the Flying Saucer subculture. 324 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:03,480 The Mothman. 325 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:04,480 Damn it. 326 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:09,920 After I just said that I haven't mentioned the 8th Tower, which he actually published, 327 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,120 I believe, of leftover stuff of the Mothman prophecies. 328 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,000 The cosmic question. 329 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,480 That's the 8th Tower as it was published in Britain and then Disneyland of the Gods, which 330 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,560 is probably young Frau, I would assume. 331 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:25,720 Yeah, that makes sense. 332 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,840 That makes a lot of sense. 333 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:34,640 So moving on, but I will say before we get into this next part, let's just have a conversation 334 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:35,880 about John Keel. 335 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,760 He does seem to be particularly well loved in the UFO community. 336 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:47,040 And while I do come across some criticism and I have some myself, I don't think that 337 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:52,880 he's necessarily on high asshole levels as we have seen in the past. 338 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,200 Don't honestly think that. 339 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,200 Really? 340 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,400 Yeah, he don't. 341 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,000 And it'll unfold. 342 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,240 We'll have some fun in the next episode. 343 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,000 We'll talk about some stuff. 344 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,760 I definitely have my feelings about him, but he's definitely not. 345 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,920 I don't know that I would throw him in the asshole. 346 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:09,920 I don't know. 347 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:14,760 At this point, he's definitely somebody we want to cover because of obviously the Mothman 348 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,320 prophecies and he's fairly prominent. 349 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,560 But I just wanted to get that out there. 350 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:25,120 From what I can put together, people love his storytelling ability and ability to bring 351 00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:29,920 many high strangeness happenings and ideas into one. 352 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:36,680 So he's also one of the original UFOlogists to accept and report on high strangeness, 353 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:42,400 which the only one who really did it before him was Jacques Ville versus just a nuts 354 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:49,080 and bolts flying saucer as it was in the beginnings of the universal theory of weird. 355 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,440 So I can't hate on that. 356 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:57,600 He was one of the first original people actually reporting all the weird shit that was just 357 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:03,120 flowing into him, which is really hard to come by now because you see people segregating 358 00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:05,600 into you know, what's this or that. 359 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,880 And this is the only theory that I'm going to adhere to and not look at all this other 360 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:10,880 stuff. 361 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:16,520 So from that, I do quite enjoy his works because it talks about so much weird stuff. 362 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:22,800 But yeah, like contemporary 1960s researchers such as J. Allen Heineck and Jacques Ville, 363 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,760 Keel was initially hopeful that he could somehow validate the prevailing extraterrestrial 364 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,320 visitation hypothesis. 365 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,760 However, after a year of investigations, Keel concluded that the extraterrestrial hypothesis 366 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,000 was untenable. 367 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:41,880 Indeed, both Heineck and Ville eventually had a similar conclusion as Keel himself wrote. 368 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:49,000 Quote, I abandoned the extraterrestrial hypothesis in 1967 when my own field investigations disclosed 369 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,160 an astonishing overlap between psychic phenomenon and UFOs. 370 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:58,320 The objects and apparitions do not necessarily originate on another planet and may not even 371 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,160 exist as permanent constructions of matter. 372 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,800 It is more likely that we see what we want to see and interpret such visions according 373 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,840 to our contemporary beliefs. 374 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,160 Quote, that is incredibly early for somebody to be coming to that conclusion. 375 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:13,360 He was very early. 376 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:17,680 He was around the same time as Jacques Ville in what he talks about. 377 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:23,200 And we've seen Jacques Ville actually be thrown under the bus by who was it? 378 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,200 Bill Moore. 379 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,200 Yeah, he did. 380 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,680 Yeah, I've never really looked into that. 381 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,000 But John Keel does appear. 382 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,800 Well, he is one of the original people that kind of has this unified theory of weird that 383 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,920 he concludes with. 384 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,760 So there are people who prefer John Keel to Jacques Ville. 385 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,040 I know I went into this after reading the Mothman prophecies and I was like, I don't 386 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,880 know about this because like I said, we'll talk about it next week. 387 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:57,280 But no, he's actually be loved, which you'll find with, you know, anybody that we talk about, 388 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,640 that's why we get so much hate. 389 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:00,920 That in the giggling. 390 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,440 It's just too inane for the average listener. 391 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,960 People love these assholes and they don't like to hear otherwise. 392 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,560 But John Keel, I haven't been able to find the opposite side of it. 393 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,560 Other than like I said, I came up with a few things and we'll talk about it. 394 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:22,640 The few things aren't really that bad, especially for how early he's around. 395 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,240 So yeah, that's my thought at this point. 396 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,560 I'm interested on where you'll land at it at the end because of course I put everything 397 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:29,560 in. 398 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:38,400 So in his books, UFOs Operation Trojan Horse and the eighth tower, Keel argues that a nonhuman 399 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,600 or spiritual intelligence source has staged whole events during a long period of time 400 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,440 in order to propagate and reinforce certain erroneous belief systems. 401 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:54,360 For example, monsters, ghosts and demons, the fairy faith of middle Europe, vampire legends, 402 00:20:54,360 --> 00:21:01,480 mystery airships in 1897, mystery aeroplanes of the 1930s, mystery helicopters, anomalous 403 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:06,280 creature sightings, poltergeist phenomena, spheres of light and unidentified flying 404 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:07,280 objects. 405 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:13,100 Keel conjectured that ultimately all of these anomalies are a cover for the real phenomena. 406 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:19,160 He used the term ultra terrestrials to describe UFO occupants he believed to be nonhuman entities 407 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,280 capable of assuming whatever form they desire. 408 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,960 In other words, he did not think that UFOs were from other planets and he was completely 409 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,360 against this notion. 410 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:33,720 He instead posited his own hypothetical explanations from where they might come from. 411 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:39,220 He thought of UFOs as manifestations from an extra dimensional force or state of energy 412 00:21:39,220 --> 00:21:41,240 beyond our current understanding. 413 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:48,240 Well, Chelsea, I know he's saying this, but Corey Good introduced the blue avians and 414 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,560 those don't come from Earth, so he clearly is lying. 415 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,440 Like you just can't repeat that. 416 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,600 He may have got caught in his lie, but I'm pretty sure he died. 417 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,400 And Corey Good, in fact, was around. 418 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:02,640 That's a fair point. 419 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,640 And Corey Good copyrighted that so you know it's real. 420 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:06,840 Oh yeah. 421 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,920 You know, we've already fully discussed how Corey Good is not an asshole. 422 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,600 Chelsea, don't give away our future. 423 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,440 We've touched on this topic. 424 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:16,440 Okay. 425 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:17,440 Yeah. 426 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,280 Like, there's an alternate. 427 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,840 No, that's our timeline right now in the past. 428 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,280 Just go listen to it. 429 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,640 It's there is full of evidence. 430 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,640 That makes sense. 431 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:28,640 Sure, why not? 432 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,560 Okay, let's continue on. 433 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:37,600 In our haunted planet, Keel discussed the seldom considered possibility that the alien visitors 434 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,840 to Earth are not visitors at all. 435 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,800 An advanced Earth civilization, which may or may not be human. 436 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,400 Interdimensional life is also considered. 437 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:52,280 Keel analyzed what he called window areas or zones of fear, which he viewed as areas 438 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:58,680 of high strangeness in which strange otherworldly entities and creatures could enter our world. 439 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,480 He favored this explanation for Mothman. 440 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:07,120 He described them as trickster beings or cosmic pranksters here to play simple minded games 441 00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:09,200 with simple minded humans. 442 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,360 I wonder if that's just certain humans or all humans. 443 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,440 Like if he was just trying to be an asshole here. 444 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,600 I like to think how that quote came off. 445 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,400 He was talking about humans in general. 446 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,160 Okay, it can be interpreted both ways. 447 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,640 Unless you just think everyone's listening to Mothman as an idiot. 448 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,520 He's quoted as saying quote from time to time the playful inhabitants of the otherworld 449 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,840 climb through the curtain in the areas we call windows and they stalk us to drink our 450 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:41,680 blood create all kinds of mischievous beliefs and misconceptions in our feeble little terrestrial 451 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,240 minds and quote. 452 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,400 This planet is haunted by us. 453 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,720 The other occupants just evade boredom by filling our skies and seas with monsters and 454 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:52,720 quote. 455 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,920 See like stuff like this. 456 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:55,920 Can you not? 457 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,000 Like that's some interesting stuff. 458 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,040 Especially for the time that this guy was working on this stuff. 459 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,040 Yeah. 460 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,280 I don't know that we've gotten any further than that. 461 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,760 No we were well it depends on who you ask. 462 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,360 There's definitely people who are making a profit of telling us other things. 463 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:14,360 That's true. 464 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:19,960 In the eighth tower in 1975 he wrote quote this is a hypothetical spectrum of energies 465 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,200 that are known to exist but that cannot be accurately measured with present day instruments 466 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,200 and quote. 467 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:31,920 Keel continues quote this super spectrum is the source of all paranormal manifestations. 468 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:37,720 It is extra dimensional meaning that it exists outside our own space time continuum yet 469 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,560 influences everything within our reality and quote. 470 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,960 John Keel considered what others thought of as different phenomenon to all be one in 471 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,880 the same or at least connected. 472 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,000 I like that. 473 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,360 I have to say that that really makes sense. 474 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:59,520 It does and it's come up in several episodes where these things kind of have touches with 475 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:06,240 other portions of high strangeness and it's kind of shunned by the rest of that group. 476 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,240 That's what I was going to say and it's these people that I like. 477 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:10,760 To this day it still gets cut. 478 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,960 That don't hold back certain portions because they're trying to it's like confirmation buys 479 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,400 they just want it to prove their point so they don't look at anything else but they 480 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,400 kind of touch on all this really super weird stuff. 481 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,920 To that point I do actually think the people who avoid that do have a good reason for it 482 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,800 in that they're trying to prove this phenomenon exists so they're only looking for the best 483 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,960 cases not the craziest ones that might connect to other crazy things within they have to 484 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:37,960 prove. 485 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,520 Does that make sense? 486 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:46,000 No that does make sense but such a weird crazy part of our reality that it's like what's 487 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,000 going to prove what? 488 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,960 I mean John Keels makes sense. 489 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,240 How are you going to prove that but how are you also going to prove UFOs are like nothing 490 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,040 bold things flying in the sky? 491 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,560 I don't know. 492 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,760 I think I have a fairly interesting viewpoint on that right now just because I'm finishing 493 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:07,360 up the research on an episode that came out prior to this one and it's different people 494 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:13,160 trying to justify their worldview against other people's worldviews that are contradicting 495 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,160 to theirs. 496 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,000 I was just going to say that differ from theirs that's so weird for an asshole episode. 497 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,000 Yeah. 498 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,000 And here we're seeing. 499 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,000 Who thought they would shit on others? 500 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,440 Here we're saying future and past collide. 501 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,080 Outside of the time phase continuum. 502 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,200 So we can just apply John Keels theory to this. 503 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,720 That's kind of the end of what he talks about. 504 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,320 I mean that's kind of where they make the connection to Hunter S. Thompson because he 505 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,680 like travels all over the world like just picking up different stories and stuff like 506 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:45,680 this. 507 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,680 He went a lot to drugs. 508 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,320 But then he yeah I don't know that he. 509 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,640 That was actually the only part that was the same. 510 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:57,040 You know it might make it a lot more interesting to be honest with you but yeah so that's kind 511 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,880 of what he talks about and so one thing is this what I want to leave it off with. 512 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,920 Yeah this is what I want to leave it off with. 513 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,440 So he'll dies at some point. 514 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,160 I can't remember what. 515 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,560 After his death one of his friends has started a website and they're publishing his letters 516 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:22,360 and writings still to which a lot of people are still invested in that are still coming 517 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:23,880 out and there's still. 518 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,560 Like new stuff is still coming out. 519 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:31,840 Yeah there's still a lot of unedited content from Point Pleasant coming out still today 520 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,880 from his notes that they're posting on his website. 521 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:41,320 I found a particular letter on his thoughts that I wanted to read here to close this out. 522 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,280 It's his thoughts on the Philadelphia experiment and it was too long for me. 523 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:53,280 So I went to AI and lit a light bulb for 20 minutes and had it summarize it here for me. 524 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,960 So let's see how it summarized this article on what Keele thinks about the Philadelphia 525 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:58,960 experiment. 526 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,400 And Chelsea to be fair if you did it in the dark you just canceled out the energy. 527 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,480 That's true net zero. 528 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:13,240 I didn't unfortunately but next time I will get that candle late taking it back to the 529 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,920 last century. 530 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:20,880 Keele writes to Robert A. Gorman and recalls their previous exchanges and Gorman's article 531 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,440 in Fate magazine. 532 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,920 I guess he was just you know writing a nice letter so you can't just jump right into business. 533 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,320 This is old school. 534 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,960 Letter discusses Morris K. Jessup's negative view of the Varo document which he considered 535 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:41,000 a joke and his pre-suicide letters that reflected his depressive personality. 536 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,560 Jessup's suicide was attributed to career setbacks and family problems. 537 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:52,000 The Jessup file was handed to Ivan Sanderson in 1966 for his book on UFOs and both Sanderson 538 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,600 and the author read the material concluded that the Varo document was the work of a 539 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,080 schizophrenic. 540 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,000 Keele received letters from Mr. Alende who provided proof of his identity and admitted 541 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,880 to writing the annotations in the Varo book. 542 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:11,480 The author claims that the real perpetrator of the hoax was the Varo secretary who typed 543 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,480 up the document not Allende. 544 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:20,760 The letter also mentions Allende's unstable personality evidenced by his erotic letters. 545 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:25,880 Keele researched the Philadelphia Naval Yards connection to the Manhattan Project suggesting 546 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,560 the garbled stories from this period's influenced Allende's claims. 547 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,480 Keele briefly mentions the magician Dunninger who claimed to make ships invisible during 548 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,400 the war which might have contributed to the legend. 549 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,400 The letter critiques the book The Philadelphia Experiment by Charles Berlitz and William Moore 550 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:48,360 asserting that the book was profitable but ignored much negative material. 551 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:54,040 The author believes that Allende was reportedly dying of cancer in 1970, may still be alive 552 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,960 in writing letters and views him as a victim rather than a conscious hoaxer. 553 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,360 So I thought that was fun. 554 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,720 If you need a refresher on the Philadelphia Experiment, go back. 555 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,600 We did a whole couple episodes on it I believe. 556 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,000 Well it was part 3 of the 4 part Bill Moore saga. 557 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,800 Yes it was. 558 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:13,800 Yeah it was. 559 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:14,800 Go back and listen to it. 560 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,240 Or was that Majestic 12? 561 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:17,840 No it's in there somewhere. 562 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,120 No Majestic 12 was in Bill Moore. 563 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:25,400 Go back and listen to Bill Moore by the way because that'll never disappoint unless it's 564 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,760 you know your high hopes that Bill Moore is a good guy. 565 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:29,760 In the case you know. 566 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:35,400 Yeah unless you hate your main laughter and like Bill Moore. 567 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,400 Philadelphia Experiment. 568 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,400 Go check it out. 569 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,800 Whether it's a 2 part or 1 part or 3 part. 570 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,440 That won't disappoint either. 571 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,440 Unless you like Bill Moore then it will. 572 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,800 Yeah so I thought that was an interesting take on it. 573 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,160 A lot more candid than Bill Moore. 574 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,880 Yeah I mean that AI summary was better than the. 575 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,000 It was better research than Bill Moore did into the entire thing. 576 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,000 Yes. 577 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,000 Thank you. 578 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,160 I try. 579 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,200 So let's get into a little bit of criticism. 580 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,280 Okay I lied that was a lost thing. 581 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,560 Criticism is the last thing and here we go. 582 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:12,520 He kept his sources mostly anonymous so no one could re-interview them. 583 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:19,160 He asked leading questions, introduced witnesses to ideas from other narratives and all in all 584 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,080 was a poor interviewer. 585 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:27,560 I'll probably agree with that based on I mean I've only read the Mothman prophecies. 586 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,800 I would like to read the other books. 587 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,520 Some of them not all of them. 588 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,800 But I will say just based on what I read you can kind of tell his interview skills. 589 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,280 He was a little bit a lot leading. 590 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,040 He did have very leading questions in his interviews. 591 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,800 I mean he didn't really have a journalist background. 592 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:53,760 He just kind of started writing and I mean he was one of the first people doing this 593 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,880 so I don't know other than just having an interest in it. 594 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,680 I can really blame him for that question Mark. 595 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:01,680 I don't know. 596 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:02,800 You feel I don't know. 597 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,400 I feel like if you wanted to make a career of it you probably should get the skills at 598 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,880 some point. 599 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,920 Yeah I mean look at what was being put out at that time. 600 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:19,160 We literally just talked about Bill Moore and the Philadelphia experiment. 601 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,320 Was anybody doing it good then? 602 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,240 They were way too drunk at the time from what I understand from Mad Men. 603 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,240 Probably yeah. 604 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,760 I mean you're definitely right. 605 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,280 You should be trying to I don't know. 606 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,400 I don't know what the standards were back then. 607 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,600 I don't even know what the standards are now to be honest with you. 608 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,960 And to be fair like they're just as bad as not worse today because they need the clicks. 609 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,040 There are people just straight up making shit up. 610 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,120 I mean technically there are people straight up making shit up at that time. 611 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,160 Depending on the day you catch them Alex Jones sometimes considers himself a journalist. 612 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,160 I don't know. 613 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,080 If you bring him to court he'll deny it profusely but sometimes journalism does in fact come 614 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,000 up as a thing he does on his show. 615 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,840 Yeah that he does. 616 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,760 In his own works he freely admits and explains how he interviews his witnesses. 617 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,440 He might not have even realized it but he implants false memories in the way he asks 618 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,800 questions, smells, sounds, placing importance on everyday experiences. 619 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,440 All of these things can change or color memories and lead to false connections. 620 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,360 The person being interviewed wants to please the interviewer so when they're asked if 621 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,040 they remember a strange phone call days before or after the incident they'll remember it 622 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,440 whether or not it happened. 623 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,160 The person goes on to say read the Mad Men prophecies and kill admits to stuff like this 624 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:35,560 freely with examples. 625 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:40,560 If you know anything about false memory implantation it's pretty easy to see white heels interviews 626 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:41,560 can't be trusted. 627 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,520 There's a ton of this in the Mad Men prophecies. 628 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:53,520 I don't know if it has to be he will just say I asked this person if they remember anyone 629 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,040 strange hanging around before their encounter. 630 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,080 He straight out just asked him that. 631 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,640 They'll be like why yeah now that I think about it there was this guy. 632 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,240 He was weird. 633 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:11,040 In addition, Keele claims hundreds of sightings but fails to name anyone so no one can follow 634 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,040 up. 635 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,320 It makes those claims worthless and drops the witnesses from hundreds to maybe a dozen. 636 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,240 He won't even name witnesses who believe both men to be a bird. 637 00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:24,960 Again read his own works he claims to want to preserve their anonymity and protect them 638 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,520 from ridicule but at the same time with no ability to corroborate any of his sources we 639 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,520 might as well dismiss them as fake tea ops. 640 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,960 I don't know maybe fictitious shit. 641 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,320 Yep maybe that wasn't as spelling. 642 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,680 Yeah so that's the end of my episode. 643 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:48,880 I really feel I'm kind of on the I mean obviously these are the crit like this is what they 644 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,380 got for criticisms. 645 00:34:50,380 --> 00:34:54,880 It's the same kind of criticisms of the Mothman prophecies which I'll go through when we do 646 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,280 the Mothman prophecies next week. 647 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,960 For someone who is on the leading edge of finding something in this field I find him 648 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:10,080 struggling with this interview process which is obviously erroneous but for having something 649 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:15,200 that's so like light years ahead with the way he kind of pulled it all together is on 650 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:20,880 kind of the forefront of it to kind of like he still ended up putting something together 651 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,200 that they still use to this day. 652 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,000 So I don't know I'm kind of on the obviously yeah he should have been better. 653 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,440 I don't think he pulled all of it completely out of his ass. 654 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,040 I do think he led witnesses. 655 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,200 He left stuff out. 656 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,480 He used other people's work we'll talk about it next week but he still pulled this all 657 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,520 together to come up with like a theory that seems to be fairly working for. 658 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,880 Well I wonder if it was kind of laziness that led him there and I just say that like he 659 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:56,560 doesn't seem to want to do a thorough investigation or have to give any of his research so he 660 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,360 can connect things by just kind of going into the story and kind of trying to get people 661 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,280 to say the things he wants. 662 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,160 Yeah I honestly it could be laziness. 663 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:15,280 I think he had things he was trying to connect throughout the process in which he was looking 664 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:21,400 to see if it came up in other other circumstances and just went about it the completely wrong 665 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:22,400 way. 666 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,480 It very well could have been laziness because he said he just kind of had an interest in 667 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:27,480 it. 668 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:33,200 It wasn't his full time gig like that he originally got into so he very well could have been you 669 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,480 know just winging it and I don't know that I would do any better if I was just like I 670 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,120 have an interest in it my whole life. 671 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,960 I don't know that I do any better going out there now to interview people if I just one 672 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,800 day was like you know what I'm just gonna give this a shot. 673 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,240 Yeah that's fair and yeah it could be too that he just wanted to connect these two things 674 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:57,840 so bad that he was leading the stories to kind of go that way but yeah it's kind of hard 675 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:03,000 to say especially I'm looking forward to hearing the next episode where we get a bit more 676 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:08,840 information so I can kind of make a better informed view on whether he's lazy or intentionally 677 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:09,840 misleading. 678 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:15,040 Yeah yeah I mean even listening to him on our bell I was just kind of like this guy's 679 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:21,280 kind of boring to listen to even though we saw all this like weird paranormal stuff and 680 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:27,120 let me tell you I listened to the Mothman prophecies on Audible I'm having trouble filtering 681 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:32,040 where I should put on what episode but I thought you know maybe it'd be better if John Keel 682 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:37,560 narrated himself and let me tell you no it wouldn't have because I found them equally 683 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,280 each is boring to listen to. 684 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,560 Well that's good and I can't wait to hear the second half of this but in the meantime 685 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,440 I have been Taylor here with Chelsea we are journey to the fringe thank you all for listening 686 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,440 we'll see you next week. 687 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:52,440 Hey. 688 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,600 Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe if you have liked what you have listened 689 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:03,960 to please like share subscribe or follow depending on what venue you are listening to us through 690 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:10,080 also please if possible leave a five star review as that really helps us in the algorithms 691 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:15,160 should you wish to interact with us please check us out on your social media of choice 692 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:20,000 I bet you we are there and if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for 693 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,800 new episodes or tell us that we're wrong and terrible either way please send us an email 694 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:45,560 at journey to the fringe at gmail.com for now I'll see you in the next episode.