1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,800 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe. 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:18,080 Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, where I feel like we just need to add a preface 3 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:19,960 to the start of these things now. 4 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:25,560 The inane laughing at our own jokes is part of the entire process. 5 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:30,540 We are very aware of it. If you're here because you like the person that we are making fun 6 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:35,240 of or learning about, you're probably going to have a bad time. I'm just telling you that 7 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:36,240 now. 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,720 On an episode that doesn't have one specific person that we're talking about. So here we 9 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:46,440 are laughing and namely laughing nonetheless, but laughing nonetheless. 10 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,840 We are your hosts, Taylor and Chelsea laughing and namely, I'm sure at some point in this 11 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:57,000 episode here today talking about I've kind of had a hard time describing my topic today, 12 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,400 but I think the easiest way to describe it. 13 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,440 With an article from the New York Post. 14 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,240 Nothing but New York Post. 15 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,600 But only if it's supported by the Epoch Times. 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,760 I'll never make the mistake again. 17 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:15,480 No, the topic today is I guess the best way to put it is space based or UFO based lawsuits. 18 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:16,760 Oh, even better. 19 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,080 And these aren't quite connected cases, but I felt like this would just be a fun thing 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:22,080 to do. 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,720 We haven't done a walk down law lane in a while. 22 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,640 So I thought this would be a fun time. 23 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,120 Okay, definitely sounds like a fun time. 24 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:31,200 Strap yourself in. 25 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:32,680 There are some interesting stories. 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,400 We're definitely going to learn about some famous UFO cases, but at the same time, we're 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,840 not going to look at that much into them because we're more so worrying about the lawsuit 28 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,240 that comes about from it. 29 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,840 We hate looking at anything in depth. 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:48,440 On how you guys want us to look at it. 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,400 We can vaguely cover it and move on. 32 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:51,400 Perfect. 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:52,560 Or allude to it for a couple years. 34 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:53,560 Yeah. 35 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:54,880 And then cover it at some point, maybe. 36 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:55,880 Yeah, exactly. 37 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,760 We covered it just cover it poorly in all the ways you wouldn't think of talking about 38 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,440 it and then just alluding to it again. 39 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,200 And without much more rambling because we just want to get into these stories. 40 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,600 Chelsea, I think everybody's at least seen people claiming that the rocks on Mars are 41 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:13,600 different things. 42 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:18,120 Be it lizards, be it bagels, be it big foot way back in the day. 43 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,480 But people are always claiming that yet they're taking no actions. 44 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:22,680 How dare they? 45 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:29,200 Well, somebody has in fact taken actions against NASA to force them to look into these issues 46 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:33,600 that they found on the surface of Mars in the photos that they've taken. 47 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:34,600 Interesting. 48 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,760 This story comes from a law firm's website, Kahane Law, and it's about this man who's 49 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:39,760 taken the step. 50 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,120 So this suit comes from a scientist in California named Dr. Joseph. 51 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:49,560 He is suing NASA for failing or refusing to investigate a rock found by the Mars rover. 52 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,920 He claims that the rock is actually an alien life form, a fungus, that they were failing 53 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:56,960 to do their duty by not investigating it properly. 54 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,840 Joseph filed his suit in the U.S. District Court in San Francisco against NASA, as well 55 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,120 as Charles Bolden, their administrator. 56 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:08,280 In the petition he filed, he said, quote, the refusal to take close up photos from various 57 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,120 angles, the refusal to take microscopic images of the specimen, the refusal to release high 58 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:18,520 resolution photos is inexplicable, recklessly negligent, and bizarre, end quote. 59 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:23,320 Joseph also believes that the object is growing since it was first spotted in earlier pictures, 60 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,000 and NASA has a different explanation. 61 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,040 They do not feel as though it is any type of alien life. 62 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,920 They claim that it is merely a rock, although it has, quote, an unusual amount of sulfur, 63 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:35,240 magnesium, and manganese, end quote. 64 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,040 They also do not believe that it has moved at all, as others claim. 65 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:43,160 Instead, they say that the rover must have bumped into the rock and moved it. 66 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,760 Joseph is demanding that NASA release the high resolution pictures of the object, as 67 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:52,080 well as 24 microscopic shots of the interior, and he wants all of this information made 68 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:53,080 public. 69 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,320 Naturally, he also wants the naming rights too. 70 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,480 While it might seem outlandish, Joseph is very serious about this belief, and he has 71 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,960 others who are backing him up in this. 72 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,080 Even if you were right, which is unlikely, and it was an alien life form, the chance 73 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,000 of that information coming out because of this lawsuit is pretty slim. 74 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,120 It's important to note that this is not Joseph's only fringe type of theory. 75 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,080 He's also written a number of papers and books covering the September 11th attack, 76 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,640 as well as alien life. 77 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:24,400 For many of these things, this credit is credibility as a scientist, and it is quite unlikely that 78 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,040 this suit goes anywhere. 79 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,520 Even though Joseph might not be correct about the alien fungus on Mars, which sounds like 80 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:34,640 a 1950s B-movie title, it doesn't mean that others won't continually pursue NASA's images 81 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:36,120 and videos looking for proof. 82 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,400 That probably won't be the way that humans discover alien life, it does make for some 83 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:41,640 fine entertainment. 84 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:46,880 Chelsea, this happened in 2014, actually, this case, and I did find the judge's decision. 85 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,080 I just took a few quotes from it. 86 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:54,160 Here Joseph requests that the court order NASA to quote, take 100 high resolution close-up 87 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,600 in focus photos, end quote, of the specimen he has identified. 88 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:03,200 Take a minimum of 24 microscopic in focus images, end quote, of the specimen. 89 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,840 Supply the images to the public, allow Joseph to quote, act as an observer at the rover 90 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:13,920 command facility, and appoint two NASA astrobiologists to rover team, end quote. 91 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,560 Credit Joseph with discovering the organism and allow him to appear as first author on 92 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,480 the first six articles relating to the discovery. 93 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,520 So he petitioned the court for this? 94 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,800 This becomes kind of important right here. 95 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:31,440 Justice Joseph has not requested relief and his petition does not state any cause of action 96 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,880 other than mandamus, which one sec, I need to actually be able to say what that word 97 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:37,320 is and I don't know it. 98 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:38,320 Not mandamus. 99 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:39,320 Yeah. 100 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,840 Oh, it's to make them do something that they're legally required to do. 101 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:44,000 That would make sense. 102 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,160 The court orders Joseph to show cause why his petition should not be dismissed for failure 103 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:50,160 to state a claim. 104 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:55,200 Joseph's petition raises only a generalized grievance shared with many citizens. 105 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,720 With alleges that he is an astrobiologist and has published many papers in the field 106 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,760 petition at 15 to 22. 107 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,800 However, quote standing is not measured by the intensity of the litigants interest or 108 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,600 the fervor of his advocacy. 109 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,480 The only injury Joseph alleges is NASA's failure to investigate a specimen depicted 110 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,360 in an image taken during a Mars rover mission. 111 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,160 This is not an injury particular to Joseph. 112 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,120 Joseph also suggests that he is standing because he is a taxpayer. 113 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,920 Currently taxpayer standing is only allowed quote in a narrow range of establishment clause 114 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,680 cases and quote because the establishment is a specific limitation on exercise of the 115 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,920 power to tax and spend. 116 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,440 In addition to not alleging a violation of the establishment clause, Joseph does not 117 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,120 appear to have alleged a violation of any specific federal law. 118 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,600 Accordingly, it is ordered that Joseph show cause why this case should not be dismissed 119 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,320 for failure to state a claim and or for lack of standing. 120 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:50,840 Those are some nice burns. 121 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:55,080 Yeah, I really like when it's formal just telling a year and idiot go away. 122 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:01,480 I also googled this guy and it turns out this is by no means the only ridiculous lawsuit 123 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:02,480 he's filed. 124 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,400 All of them he's a self-wrap. 125 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:11,040 So Dr. Joseph sued Amazon in 2012 alleging that Amazon regularly quote publishes and 126 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:16,000 copyrights defamatory and libelous statements about competitors including the plaintiff. 127 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,440 He sued Springer Nature who he contends conspired to cover up his discoveries and defraud him 128 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:26,200 as they retracted some of his papers about extraterrestrial life in 2020. 129 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,600 And there was a criticism in the court case there. 130 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,680 The complaint is at times difficult to follow. 131 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,480 It is littered with speculation, confusing ramblings, conclusory legal assertions and 132 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,680 personal attacks against the defendants. 133 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:43,000 It got dismissed in 2021 with prejudice, which means he has to pay the other lawyer. 134 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,440 And then he said that the judge who dismissed his case is a fraud who was bribed. 135 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,320 He basically went out and made a statement. 136 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:55,560 You have at least two crooked judges, Cronin who took bribes and Viscosell who is covering 137 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:56,560 it up. 138 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,240 Both judges have conspired with the defendants to commit fraud against the court and to pervert 139 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:01,240 and obstruct justice. 140 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:06,240 And they have ruled that a click through agreement is valid despite the fact that even the defendant 141 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:11,000 admits it is fake and it is impossible for anyone to click, check, agree or sign. 142 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,480 But that truth doesn't matter to these two Black Robes criminals because as Viscosell 143 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,520 has admitted the case is fixed. 144 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,280 Cronin belongs in a jail cell. 145 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:25,160 Viscosell is not fit to serve on the bench and no, I don't expect you to investigate 146 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:26,680 the two gangsters in Black Robes. 147 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,440 I expect you and the Southern District to cover it up and blame the victim because 148 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,600 I suspect there are a lot of judges who are taking bribes just like Cronin, which is why 149 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,040 Viscosell is covering it up. 150 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,080 If these two representatives of the Southern District then it's a cesspool of correction. 151 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:42,880 Oh and sorry his name is Ron Joseph. 152 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,160 Spell RHAWN. 153 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,840 He then went on to suit the city of San Jose. 154 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,480 Joseph was involved in a feud in 2018 with his next door neighbor over light infusions 155 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:53,920 onto his property. 156 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,040 Joseph has alleged that his neighbor hated him for quote his race, religion and sexual 157 00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,040 orientation. 158 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:00,040 End quote. 159 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,080 He also alleged that San Jose code inspector, Jacef Gabilisco, I'm sure that's how you 160 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:05,080 say it. 161 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,840 Joseph recently solicited an accepted money from and entered into a conspiracy with plaintiff's 162 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:13,320 neighbor to commit hate crimes against plaintiffs based on plaintiff's neighbors perception 163 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,760 of plaintiff's race, religion and sexual orientation. 164 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,360 Joseph filed a lawsuit against the city of San Jose as well as he alleged they told him 165 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:25,480 to strip eight of his cypress trees from their base up to five feet as they were in violation 166 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,880 of certain municipal code provisions and he alleged that that would affect their aesthetic 167 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,600 value and endanger their health and that the city did not provide him with a code violation. 168 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,120 He argued that the first amendment should offer free speech protection to his cypress 169 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,360 trees as they are a symbol of his religious beliefs. 170 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,320 This guy just really wants to suit someone. 171 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:45,320 Yeah, yeah he sure does. 172 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,320 See a doctor ensuing people? 173 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,440 No, cause he would be better at it by then. 174 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,320 I think he might actually have a PhD in astrobiology. 175 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,280 I didn't look into that part. 176 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:55,760 There's too many lawsuits. 177 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,280 What an interesting thing to speculate on. 178 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:00,280 Astrobiology. 179 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:01,280 Yeah. 180 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,320 Cause then maybe it shouldn't be founded. 181 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:04,320 Yeah. 182 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:10,000 He alleged that the 12 cypress trees that he planted had a mythical and religious significance. 183 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,040 Plaintiff suggested that he planted 12 cypress trees because he thinks the number 12 has 184 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,600 both religious and cosmic significance citing the fact that there were 12 tribes of Israel, 185 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,840 12 disciples of Christ, 12 hours in part of the day, 12 sons of the zodiac and 12 gods 186 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:24,840 of Olympus. 187 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,320 He claims that quote, 12 has been seen as a mystical, magical and religious symbol and 188 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,080 again it has cosmological significance and quote. 189 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,920 It's a 12 from like all different kinds of religions. 190 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,560 All different kinds of religions and then also part of the day. 191 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:39,560 Yep. 192 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:41,160 This guy's nuts. 193 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,440 He added that quote, as a reflection of my own beliefs, I planted 12 and I made sure 194 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:50,360 it was 12 and then I put the Celtic cross as well as other religious symbols such as 195 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,720 a Buddha because I shared Buddha's beliefs and those are right there in my front yard 196 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,080 between those trees. 197 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,480 In short, the plaintiff is quite adamant that this feeling towards his trees is not part 198 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,960 of any set of religious beliefs and certainly not part of any organized or recognized religion 199 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,600 instead to put it in his own words. 200 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,040 He describes trees as such quote, they're still religious symbol while not religious 201 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:12,160 spiritual. 202 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,040 Let's not use the word religious. 203 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,120 People would because it is a religious symbol. 204 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,160 To me it's a spiritual symbol that happens have religious significance and quote end 205 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,160 of that whole part. 206 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,160 I will comment. 207 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,800 I love that he planted 12 then made sure it was 12. 208 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:28,800 Yeah. 209 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,360 Hey, how many have gotten out? 210 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,160 I think that was 12 just got a retallion make sure it was 12. 211 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,680 You know, maybe he's a doctor of carpentry because like the first rule of carpentry is 212 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:40,840 measure twice cut once. 213 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,040 And maybe he planted the trees count twice plant once. 214 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,040 Count then plant then count. 215 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:53,520 I didn't say he was a good doctor of carpentry. 216 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,600 The United States met not only do you see what we're everything but you like and this 217 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,480 guy is like the epitome of it. 218 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,480 You don't see people like this in Canada that often. 219 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,760 You say that but I live in the same town as David Lindsay and my God, he's just he's 220 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:08,760 a character. 221 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:09,760 I don't know who that is. 222 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,560 Oh, he's a guy who's going through a court case right now for assaulting a police officer 223 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:14,560 during COVID. 224 00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:15,560 Oh, that guy. 225 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:17,560 I didn't know him. 226 00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:21,920 Yeah, he made all his money telling people that they don't actually have to pay taxes. 227 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:22,920 I remember that. 228 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:23,920 Allegedly. 229 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,840 And that note I wonder what the Queen of Canada is up to on a different note back to this guy 230 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,600 we're talking about the doctor. 231 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,760 So I love that he's suing everyone over everything. 232 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:33,760 Love that. 233 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:39,320 And then there's the typical like all of this stuff that I'm taking a stand against is for 234 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,320 religious spiritual purposes. 235 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:42,960 So yeah, well no, sorry, religion. 236 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,360 What spiritual for religious people if they were. 237 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,840 Remember, I am using it as a religious exemption. 238 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,440 But it's just spiritual for me. 239 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,240 The San Jose lawsuit got dismissed in 2023 from that judgment. 240 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,360 Here there is no genuine issue of material effect because one, San Jose municipal code 241 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,840 provisions requiring trees to be kept pruned and below a certain height are valid and neutral 242 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,280 regulations of general application that do not constitute a constitutionally cognizable 243 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,800 or otherwise substantial burden on the exercise of plaintiff's belief as he has described 244 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:22,200 them in his deposition to plaintiff specifically disavows religion and claims that his connection 245 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:29,120 to his trees is rooted in a vague and indeterminate concept of spirituality, quantum physics and 246 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:30,760 cosmic mechanics. 247 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,880 Three plaintiff has failed to demonstrate that any of the actions complained of in his 248 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:41,960 SAC ever actually impinged on any of his beliefs and for plaintiff conceded that he was neither 249 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:47,120 even made to cut his trees or that he was ever assessed any fine or penalty related to 250 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,240 his trees. 251 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,120 So he also sued NASA again in 2016. 252 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,560 I never found out what he sued them for, but it was dismissed with prejudice. 253 00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:58,560 He yeah, it was NASA money. 254 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:00,040 So yeah, that's the first one. 255 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,200 I actually found him more interesting than the first lawsuit that he did. 256 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,280 He might get his own episode at some point. 257 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:10,600 It turns out he wrote a scientific paper that says plasma that lives in the atmosphere is 258 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,920 living and that's what you have those are. 259 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,000 The stuff that comes out of your nose at San's is the blood stuff. 260 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,200 More like lightning, I think is a good way to put it. 261 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,000 Why do we have so many words for plasma? 262 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,720 I don't know many many things called plasma. 263 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:24,920 Yeah, I don't like it. 264 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:32,040 Okay, we're going to move on from our friend Ron Joseph to something that it's sorry, 265 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,000 Dr. Ron Joseph, something probably a little more substantive than what he did. 266 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,600 We're going to look at something called the Kecksburg incident, which shall see you might 267 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,720 have an idea of what it is. 268 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,120 But if not, I'm going to give an overview of it on the evening of December 9th, 1965, 269 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:52,320 a large brilliant fireball was seen in at least six US states and Ontario and Canada 270 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,200 as it streaked over the Detroit, Michigan, Windsor, Ontario area. 271 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,320 Reports of a pot metal debris over Michigan and Northern Ontario, grass fires and sonic 272 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,120 booms in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area were attributed to this fireball. 273 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,720 Some people in the village of Kecksburg, which is 30 miles southeast of Pittsburgh reported 274 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,760 wisps of blue smoke, vibrations and a thump and also that something from the sky had crashed 275 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:14,880 into the woods. 276 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:20,320 An early story in the Greensburg Tribune Review stated the following, the area where the object 277 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,840 landed was immediately sealed off on the order of the US Army and state police officials 278 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,400 in anticipation of a close inspection of whatever may have fallen. 279 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:33,480 State police officials there ordered the area roped off to await the expected arrival of 280 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,720 both US Army engineers and possibly civilian scientists. 281 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:41,160 When state troopers and Air Force personnel searched the woods, they found quote absolutely 282 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,680 nothing and quote, a subsequent addition in the Tribune. 283 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,240 Or the headline quote, searchers failed to find the object. 284 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,560 Authorities discounted proposed explanations such as a plane crash, air missile test or 285 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,200 re-entering satellite debris and generally assumed it to be a meteor. 286 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,040 Astronomer Paul Ineer said the fireball was likely to have been a meteor entering Earth's 287 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,040 atmosphere. 288 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:02,280 Geophysicist George Weatherillo. 289 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,000 With the era, Weatherillo? 290 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,000 Weatherillo? 291 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,840 Yeah, Weatherillo. 292 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,160 Discounted speculations that it was debris from a satellite and agreed that the report 293 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,320 was probably due to a meteor. 294 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,840 Former William P. Butt, Bittleman and Fred Hess said it undoubtedly was a meteor and 295 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,640 a spokesman from the Department of Defense in Washington said first reports indicated 296 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,360 that the reported fireball was a natural phenomenon. 297 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:24,640 So that's the event. 298 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:25,800 Happened in the 60s. 299 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,720 Then I stumbled across a Vice News article on this which I'm going to read quite a bit 300 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,200 from because it's great. 301 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:33,640 It's written by Matthew Goh. 302 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,320 I think we've actually used him before. 303 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,960 New documents shed light on NASA's secretive project, Moondust. 304 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,960 There's still no solid answers as to what crashed in Pennsylvania that night, but new 305 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:49,560 documents tied to an old lawsuit against NASA have uncovered a few of the missing pieces. 306 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,600 A Freedom of Information Act request from the Black Vault, a clearinghouse for declassified 307 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,800 documents, has uncovered new documents related to the Air Force's project Moondust, a sustained 308 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,600 effort to recover objects and debris from the spacecrafts that had crashed to Earth. 309 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,040 Multiple people have been searching for these records for decades and NASA has long claimed 310 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,240 they were either destroyed or lost. 311 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:14,200 Journalist Leslie Keane hoped to uncover the truth in 2002 and went on the hunt for information 312 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,680 about project Moondust and the Kexburg incident. 313 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,480 A year later, she sued NASA claiming it was holding back. 314 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:25,360 After previously promising to conduct an expedited search for files related to the 1965 Kexburg 315 00:17:25,360 --> 00:17:31,400 UFO crash, NASA had stonewalled and was withholding documents leaving no recourse but this one. 316 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,760 Keane said in a blog post in 2009. 317 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,200 In 2007, NASA finally relented and gave over the files and agreed to pay Keane's legal 318 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:39,720 fees related to the lawsuit. 319 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,560 But some of the files related to Kexburg and the project Moondust were allegedly lost forever. 320 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,400 According to a NASA Public Affairs document, included in this latest round of the documents, 321 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,280 NASA sent its files to the National Archives for safekeeping two years after the Kexburg 322 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:54,280 incident. 323 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:59,760 In 1996, the National Archives told NASA that the files had been marked as lost since 1987. 324 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,440 Enter the Black Vault, which asks the government for all its documents related to the lawsuit 325 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,440 with Keane. 326 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:09,040 The documents were found 220 pages back, including some fragments of the project Moondust records. 327 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,800 The file also detailed the reasons why they were so hard to find. 328 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,720 NASA had destroyed many of them as part of a routine cleaning out of old records. 329 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,560 The 220 pages are an interesting grab bag of NASA communications describing struggles 330 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,760 to track down records and State Department communications about Project Moondust. 331 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,360 The diplomatic cables are particularly interesting and paint a picture of NASA in the 1960s rushing 332 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:34,120 around the world attempting to pick up every scrap that fell from the sky for study. 333 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:38,560 For example, one diplomatic cable recounts the difficulty NASA had in collecting a piece 334 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,440 of debris that fell in Zambia. 335 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:41,440 Quote from this, 336 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:46,240 Contacts says fragment measure 17 by 11 feet is made of aluminum and appears too large 337 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,160 for pickup by Zambia Air Force Caraboo unless cut into. 338 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:51,400 One cable said another quote, 339 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:57,440 Took 12 men to carry fragment through difficult terrain to strip, but four men could lift. 340 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,800 According to the documents, NASA later identified the Zambia fragment as a piece of the Apollo 341 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,680 AS-203, an unmanned test craft NASA launched in 1966. 342 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,600 The documents are full of the minutiae of the early days of America's foray into space 343 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,440 when anything crashed to Earth could be part of someone's space program. 344 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,520 What exactly landed in Kecksburg that night in 1965? 345 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:23,280 In 2005, just ahead of the 40th anniversary of the incident, NASA announced it was a Russian 346 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:28,040 satellite, but NASA couldn't prove its case because the records had been lost. 347 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,040 Quote, 348 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:30,680 As a rule, we don't track UFOs. 349 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,800 What we could do, and what we apparently did as experts in spacecrafts in the 1960s, 350 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,200 was to take a look at whatever it was and give our expert opinion. 351 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,960 End quote, a NASA spokesperson said in 2005. 352 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:43,960 We did that, quote. 353 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,280 We did that, we boxed the case up, and that was the end of it. 354 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,080 Unfortunately, the documents supporting those findings were misplaced, end quote. 355 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,920 That however wasn't NASA's line in 1965, quote. 356 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,880 Investigations of photographs and sightings of the fireball indicated its path through 357 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,400 the atmosphere was probably too steep to be consistent with a spacecraft re-entering 358 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,880 from Earth orbit and was more likely a meteor in a pro-grade orbit from the vicinity of 359 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,680 the asteroid belt, and probably ended its flight over Western-like Erie, end quote. 360 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,400 It's at an archive press release in 1965. 361 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,880 NASA has steadfastly said that the Kecksburg was not the result of an extraterrestrial 362 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,120 crash, but one of NASA's key goals is the search for life in the universe. 363 00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:28,040 To date, NASA has yet to find any credible evidence of extraterrestrial life. 364 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,680 However, NASA is exploring the solar system and beyond to help us answer fundamental questions, 365 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,080 including whether we are alone in the universe. 366 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:40,280 We lead the US government's search for extraterrestrial life, be it close to home, on planets or moons 367 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,520 of our solar system, or deeper into space. 368 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,760 NASA does not actively search for UAPs and the lack of robust data is the central problem 369 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:53,080 for scientific study of UAPs and to determine whether they are natural or human-made phenomena. 370 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,520 There is no current data to support that UAPs or UFOs are evidence of alien technology, 371 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:04,160 as is said by NASA to motherboard, which is the subsidiary of vice or the section of vice. 372 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,320 I can leave out that last paragraph of this article just because I don't think it's that 373 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,000 relevant, but NASA has also changed their position again and they don't think it was 374 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:18,840 a Russian satellite since that time. 375 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,720 So this is NASA's current position on this. 376 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,800 There is some speculation that the reentry of the Cosmos 96 Vanara-type spacecraft was 377 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,080 responsible for a fireball which was seen over southwest Ontario through from Michigan 378 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,080 to New York. 379 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,160 Investigations of photographs and sightings of the fireball indicated its path through 380 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,440 the atmosphere is probably too steep to be consistent with the spacecraft reentering 381 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,080 Earth orbit and was more likely a meteor in a prograde orbit from the vicinity of the asteroid 382 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:43,080 belt. 383 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,560 So they're back to, they've changed their minds again. 384 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:46,560 Interesting. 385 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,360 Is that a lawsuit or? 386 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:49,800 No, that's just their position. 387 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,640 Is there going to come a lawsuit? 388 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,200 No, there's no documents. 389 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,160 So it's kind of hard to do anything. 390 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,720 Right, right. 391 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,320 It's just kind of where we are. 392 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,600 But yeah, because a lawsuit came about, we did at least learn about Project Moondust 393 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,240 which is to collect anything coming down from space regardless of where it is, which is 394 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,240 incredibly interesting. 395 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,320 And that makes sense. 396 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,840 A little more serious, kind of different, but you'll hear Kecksburg come up a lot because 397 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,480 it is kind of weird and it was quarantined off. 398 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,920 Like everybody agrees on that, just nobody actually knows what landed. 399 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,440 Oh, I love, Bergs are good. 400 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,400 I think it's a pair on as far as my favorite UFO. 401 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,400 Yeah. 402 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,800 And it's the one where people say there was like an acorn shaped thing leaving the site, 403 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:32,800 correct? 404 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:38,560 Yeah, that's the one that is theorized by some of the eyewitnesses that it was, I mean, 405 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:45,280 I guess in the end it was speculation because it was supposed that the Germans had the bell, 406 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:50,000 which was supposedly in that sort of shape, so they think it was around the right time 407 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:55,040 for it to possibly have been one of the many theories, I'm sure. 408 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,800 I'm just vaguely aware of that part of the story because it wasn't about the lawsuit. 409 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,960 So I think I gave enough in the overview of that. 410 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,800 The last one we're actually going to finish off with, it's a fairly famous story that 411 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,360 came up actually in, what was I just talking about? 412 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:10,360 Doctor. 413 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:12,080 No, William English, I think was his name. 414 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,800 He was in the first UFO casualty story, the British guy. 415 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:17,800 Was he the casualty? 416 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,800 No, he was the guy who uncovered it. 417 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,160 Author or something, right? 418 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,320 Yeah, this case came up in that story, so it's interesting that it's coming up again 419 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:26,320 so soon. 420 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,720 Can't be bothered to look up the guy's name though, unfortunately. 421 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,240 So don't worry, doesn't have anything to do with the story. 422 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,920 The record exists in our catalog. 423 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:33,920 Yeah, it's somewhere out there. 424 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,720 Catalog, catalog, not backwood, catalog. 425 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,200 It's commonly known as the Cash Lundrum UFO Encounter. 426 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:41,200 Oh, this is familiar. 427 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,800 Yeah, I'm going to set up the story for everybody so they can see what actually happened a little 428 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,120 bit or what has been alleged to happen, then we'll see what comes of it. 429 00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:55,440 On the evening of December 29th, 1980, Betty Cash, Vicki Landrum, and Vicki's grandson, 430 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:02,080 Colby Landrum, together they are age 51, 57, and 7, are driving home to Dayton, Texas, 431 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,600 and Cash is ultimately a cutlass after dining out. 432 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,600 They later said that at about 9pm, they were driving on an isolated two-lane road in dense 433 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:10,600 woods. 434 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:11,960 They saw a light above some trees. 435 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,440 At first, they thought it was an airplane approaching Houston Intercontinental Airport, 436 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,040 which is about 35 miles away, and gave it little notice. 437 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,480 A few minutes later, on the winding roads, they saw what they believed to be the same 438 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,680 light as before, but thought it was now much closer and brighter. 439 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,280 They said that it came from a huge diamond-shaped object that was hovering at about tree-top 440 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,000 level, and its base was expelling flame and emitting a significant heat. 441 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,800 Landrum told Cash to stop the car, fearing that they would be burned if they got closer. 442 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,080 Landrum, who's a born Indian Christian, interpreted the object as a sign of the second coming of 443 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:50,160 Jesus Christ, telling Colby, quote, that's Jesus, he will not hurt us, end quote. 444 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,680 Outside of her firing at the UFO, I can't see a more American answer to that. 445 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,160 No, there's only the two options. 446 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,440 It's either Jesus or you shoot it. 447 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:00,440 Sometimes you do both. 448 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,640 Yeah, if you're American enough, and that's anybody in the south. 449 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,600 So Cash says from here she was feeling anxious and considered turning the car around, but 450 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,600 abandoned this idea because the road was too narrow and she presumed to get stuck in the 451 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,200 dirt shoulders, which were soft from the evening's rain. 452 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,760 Also she's driving an old tumble, so it needs like a 17-point turn at that point. 453 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,520 Cash and Lundrum said that they got out of the car to examine the object, but that Colby 454 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:29,200 was terrified, so Lundrum said she quickly returned to the car to comfort him. 455 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,280 Cash remained outside, quote, mesmerized by the bizarre sight. 456 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,720 The object intensely bright and dull metallic silver was shaped like a huge upright diamond, 457 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,360 about the size of the Dayton water tower, with its top and bottom cut off so that they 458 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:44,480 were flat rather than pointed. 459 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,400 Small blue lights ringed the center and periodically over the next few minutes flames shot out 460 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,880 the bottom. 461 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,640 Flaring outward to create the effect of a large cone. 462 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,880 Every time the fire dissipated, the UFO floated a few feet downward towards the road, but 463 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,640 then the flames blasted out again. 464 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,080 The object rose about the same distance. 465 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,680 They said the heat was strong enough to make the car's metal body painful to touch. 466 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:11,560 Cash said she had to use her coat to protect her hands from being burned by the door handle 467 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,280 when she finally got back in the car. 468 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,880 When she touched the dashboard, Lundrum claimed that her hand pressed into softened vinyl, 469 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,800 leaving an imprint that was evident weeks later. 470 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,000 Investigators cited it as proof of their account. 471 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,600 Video evidence of this was shown in UFOs, what's going on in 1885, HBO documentary. 472 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,600 They said that the object then ascended from the treetops and rose higher in the sky, and 473 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,480 then a group of helicopters approached it, surrounding it in tight formation. 474 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:38,840 Surrounding it in tight formation. 475 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,160 Cash and Lundrum counted 23 helicopters and later identified some of them as Handemroeder, 476 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,840 Boeing CH-47 Chinooks, used by military forces worldwide. 477 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,600 More specifically, Cash claimed that they had United States Air Force markings. 478 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,000 And with the road now clear, Cash says she drove on, claiming to see glimpses of the 479 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,960 object and the helicopters receding into the distance. 480 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:04,040 From first sighting the object to its departure, they said the encounter lasted about 20 minutes 481 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,840 based on the description giving. 482 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,920 It appears that they were southbound on Texas State Highway when they claimed to have been 483 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:10,920 seen the object. 484 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,600 So that's the actual story itself. 485 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,920 From there though, and this is where it gets the most interesting, I think. 486 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,880 Like it's a pretty bizarre case because you never hear flames. 487 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:25,000 I'm interested to see where this goes, and no, you don't usually see flames even from 488 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,600 like military vehicles. 489 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,080 Yeah, you do see black helicopters they come up. 490 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:34,680 I think it's an episode we've always actually kind of had on the list to do. 491 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,360 It seems like a very specific time frame where they kind of happen. 492 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:42,160 But that's enough because I want to continue on with the story, the real juicy part that 493 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,960 we get into and it's the health problems that start to arise. 494 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:50,120 So the witnesses claim after the UFO and helicopters left, Cash took the Lundrum's home and then 495 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:51,640 went home herself. 496 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,760 That night they apparently all experienced similar symptoms. 497 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,640 So Cash to a greater degree. 498 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,720 The claim was that they all suffered from nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, generalized weakness, 499 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,000 a burning sensation in their eyes, and a feeling as though they were suffering from sunburns. 500 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,560 Over the next few days, Cash said her symptoms worsened, with many large painful blisters 501 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:12,880 forming on her skin. 502 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,480 When taken to a hospital emergency room on January 3rd, 1981, Cash could not walk and 503 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,520 had lost large patches of skin and clumps of hair. 504 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,960 She was released after 12 days though her condition was not much better. 505 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,400 And she later returned to the hospital for another 15 days. 506 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,000 In the HBO documentary from 85, Cash's hair was shown in pictures and she claimed doctors 507 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,520 switched from treating her for burns to treating her for radiation sickness after realizing 508 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,880 she had been exposed to radiation. 509 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,520 Later she was treated for cancer. 510 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,760 The Lundrum's health was somewhat better though reportedly both suffered from weakness, 511 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,240 skin sores, and hair loss. 512 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:51,720 In an April of 1981, Vicki was found to be developing a cataract in one eye and Betty 513 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,360 was first treated for breast cancer in 83. 514 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,560 Neither condition was known to have been present prior to their UFO encounter. 515 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,080 That's what this one gets known for. 516 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,760 There's actual symptoms coming from this encounter. 517 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,680 At least it seems to be from that. 518 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,560 That doesn't prove that it's extraterrestrial though. 519 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,040 No and that's actually where this goes. 520 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,600 During their Bergstrom Air Force Base interview 8 months post incident, when asked to sketch 521 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,320 a picture of what they saw, if it had a discernible shape, Betty drew and signed what she described 522 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,200 as a diamond. 523 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:28,400 Betty Cash and Landren contact their US Senator Lloyd Benson and John Tower and they suggest 524 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,120 that the witnesses file a complaint with the Judge Advocate Claim Office at Bergstrom 525 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,280 Air Force Base. 526 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:40,560 In August of 1981, Cash, Lundrum, and Colby are interviewed at length by Bergstrom Air 527 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,840 Force Base and are told that they should hire a lawyer and seek financial compensation 528 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,320 for their injuries. 529 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:52,200 So they find a lawyer, Peter Gersten, who takes this case on pro bono and the case ends 530 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,480 up going through the US courts for several years. 531 00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:00,520 Cash and Lundrum sued the US federal government for $20 million and testimony of officials 532 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,600 from NASA, the Air Force, and Army, and Navy are all given. 533 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,000 I do have a few excerpts just from, I couldn't find the original documents unfortunately because 534 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,240 they're too old, but there's a few things from that those documents that still kind 535 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,640 of are out there. 536 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:20,000 All here with are the sworn affidavits of Robert Somers, NASA, US Air Force, just all 537 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,240 the people that are involved. 538 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,440 The affidavits established that the UFO allegedly seen by plaintiffs and which is alleged was 539 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,160 proximate cause for their asserted injuries is not and was not owned, operated, or in 540 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,320 the aircraft inventories of the United States of America, nor was it such an object under 541 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,000 the control of the United States or its employees. 542 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,000 On the basis of those affidavits, the United States moves this court for an order dismissing 543 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,200 the complaint of plaintiffs with prejudice or on the alternative finding that there exists 544 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,920 no genuine issue of material fact. 545 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,760 In response to this, we have a letter from the Department of Air Force. 546 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,160 The appeal of your client's claims of personal injuries allegedly caused by an overflight 547 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,800 of an identified flying object and unidentified helicopters on December 29th, 1980 have been 548 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,720 considered under 10 USC 2733 and are denied. 549 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,080 The reason for this decision is the fact that as alleged by the claimants, they'll 550 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,160 to establish that their injuries were caused in any way by the US government or in any 551 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,760 of its agencies or its surreptilities and you should not consider the acceptance and 552 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,600 subsequent denial of the claim as an admission of the truth of any facts alleged by your 553 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:21,600 clients. 554 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,040 Our investigation has revealed no evidence of involvement by any military personnel 555 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,360 equipment or aircraft in this alleged incident and the arguments you presented to establish 556 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,720 liability of the government are not supported by any case or statutory law. 557 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,360 This is the final administrative action that can be taken on your client's claims. 558 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,440 This denial also satisfies the administrative filing requirements of the Federal Tort Claims 559 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:42,440 Act. 560 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,840 Based on this denial, your clients have the right to file suit against the government 561 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,480 and an appropriate United States District Court not later than six months from the date 562 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,000 of the mailing of this letter. 563 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,120 And it finishes off. 564 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,280 There is an order of dismissal. 565 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,160 It is hereby ordered that the above noted cause of action is dismissed pursuant to the 566 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,440 federal government's civil procedures rules. 567 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,080 So unfortunately, it doesn't go anywhere, but at least they tried to sue the US government 568 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,640 and I find it an interesting argument. 569 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,760 We don't own it so we don't owe you any money. 570 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,440 Can you know what kind of reminds me a little bit vaguely? 571 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:12,440 Not exactly. 572 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,120 Of United Kingdom one. 573 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,880 Oh, Randallson Forest. 574 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,120 Yeah, and then they have a whole bunch of health problems and they can't get it covered 575 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,880 because the incident never... 576 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,720 Yeah, that part of their profiles were dacted and unfortunately they never sued for it. 577 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,480 So they didn't make the list. 578 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,000 I actually specifically looked that up to see if it did. 579 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,880 That gives you something to think about. 580 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,640 I mean, they suffered a lot of health problems and where do you see compensation from for 581 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:40,640 that? 582 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,840 Yeah, and they all kind of suffer the same one. 583 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,240 So it's an interesting case. 584 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,720 They tried to sue the Pledgeirans. 585 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:47,720 They could. 586 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:53,000 And I'm saying that with complete seriousness, notice my lack of maniacal laughter. 587 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,000 Inane. 588 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,000 Inane, sorry. 589 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,280 I know, I keep using different ones. 590 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:57,280 It is inane though. 591 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:58,280 Yeah, I don't know. 592 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,200 Could Beam actually do that on their behalf? 593 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,160 Would they need to get a lawyer or would he just channel the lawyer? 594 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,440 No, he would be able to go directly to the source, Pledgeiran. 595 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,400 If anybody actually, no, they're not going to listen unfortunately, but it did seem like 596 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,600 somebody who listened to us at one point, they'd have a connection to Beam. 597 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,320 So if they could get us in touch, that would be great. 598 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,160 We could see if they have anything to do with this. 599 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,960 And what their tort system is like. 600 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,160 But yeah, Chelsea, that was... 601 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,080 I had a hard way of describing it. 602 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,640 It all made sense to me as the category, but it's weird cases of in-arc parameter that 603 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,360 had lawsuits attached to them. 604 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,720 It's the legal woes of UFOs. 605 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,640 But that first one with NASA on Mars doesn't quite fit that. 606 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:39,640 No UFOs. 607 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,280 Maybe a mushroom, but I doubt it. 608 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,120 I really doubt it. 609 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,120 It'll come to us. 610 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,120 Okay. 611 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,560 But yeah, anything you want to add before we wrap this up? 612 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,680 No, because I have not myself sued anybody. 613 00:33:52,680 --> 00:34:00,440 I've not myself yet seen a UFO and needed to sue, nor have I been tracking what NASA 614 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,200 is up to so carefully as if when they slip up, I will sue them. 615 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,080 And hey, we at least know about Project Moondust, which is an interesting thing. 616 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,360 We'll probably never know more about it, but it is a super cool little project. 617 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,160 Like they had to go to Africa and get a spaceship, just one we made. 618 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:22,680 Just because it didn't fit with the country isn't well equipped to be able to retrieve 619 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:23,680 it. 620 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:24,680 Oh. 621 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,600 But with that, I think that's a good place to stop. 622 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,480 I have been Taylor here with Chelsea. 623 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:30,480 We are Journey to the Fringe. 624 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:36,480 Thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week. 625 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,800 Bye. 626 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,120 Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe. 627 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:47,200 If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or follow, 628 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,280 depending on what venue you are listening to us through. 629 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:56,600 Also, please, if possible, leave a five star review, as that really helps us in the algorithms. 630 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,440 If you wish to interact with us, please check us out on your social media of choice. 631 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,200 I bet you we are there. 632 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,640 And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell 633 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:14,560 us that we're wrong and terrible, either way, please send us an email at journeytothefringe.com. 634 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:28,960 For now, I'll see you in the next episode.