1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,800 From the unexplained to the mundane, come join us on a journey to the fringe. 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:21,740 Hello and welcome to Journey to the Fringe, where time is an abstract concept, which I 3 00:00:21,740 --> 00:00:27,080 guess is just like everywhere else, but I mean it's different, like in another way, 4 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:28,080 I promise. 5 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,720 Anyhow, my name is Taylor, I'm here with Chelsea, we are your podcast hosts today talking 6 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:38,680 about maybe time as in like time is probably something that takes place in this story, 7 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:40,320 but it might not, I don't know. 8 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:41,320 Chelsea's doing the episode. 9 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,680 At the very least, time is happening. 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:44,680 Oh, good. 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:45,680 How do you do this? 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:46,680 Oh, god. 13 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:47,680 Fuck it. 14 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,360 It's so funny, were you right? 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,280 This does include time. 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,080 And assuming that it's my turn to talk, I'm not even going to introduce this one. 17 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,560 I'm sick of introducing it and I'm just going to jump right in. 18 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:08,040 Project Blue Book Case Files, April 24th, 1964 at 45pm, the southern outskirts of Socarro, 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,040 New Mexico. 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:14,120 I'm going to read directly from the statements that were taken from the eyewitnesses in 21 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:15,120 this point. 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,600 I thought I'd bring like a fresh perspective to it. 23 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,400 I'm going to do my best with it by doing that because it's just in point form. 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:27,560 Here we're going to read some eyewitness statements from this 545pamp, not on the actual 25 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,560 date of April 24th, but that's where the incident takes place and I hope you're still 26 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:32,560 following me. 27 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:38,480 Socarro police sergeant Lonnie Zamora, who is in his patrol car alone, is chasing a speeding 28 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,400 car due south of Socarro. 29 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:41,960 And here's a roar. 30 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:45,000 I feel like we've actually alluded to this one quite a few times. 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,840 I hope we have, because now is the moment you've been waiting for. 32 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:54,760 He hears a roar and he sees a flame in the sky to the southwest some distance away, possibly 33 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,880 a half mile or a mile away. 34 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:02,960 Zamora says he did not pay much attention to the flame that the sun was too west and 35 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,520 it didn't help this vision. 36 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,080 And he was wearing green sunglasses over prescription glasses. 37 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:13,000 In interviews with Air Force investigators for Project Blue Book, he goes to some links 38 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,240 to describe the long, narrow, funnel-shaped, bluish-orange flame. 39 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,640 He thought there might be some dust at the bottom and attributed it to a windy day. 40 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:27,000 The weather was clear, sunny sky, otherwise just a few clouds scattered over the area. 41 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,000 He describes the noise as a roar, not a blast, not like a jet. 42 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,000 It changes from high frequency to low frequency and then stops. 43 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:40,800 The roar blasted about 10 seconds and as he approached on a gravel road, he saw a flame 44 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:47,160 about as long as he heard the sound flame the same color as best he can recall. 45 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,680 The sound distinctly from high to low until it disappeared. 46 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:56,320 He explains that his car windows were down and Zamora notes no other possible witnesses 47 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,840 except possibly the car in front, which he estimates might have heard the noise, not 48 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,840 seen the flame because it would have been behind the brow of the hill from the viewpoint. 49 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:10,120 He's driving, he sees the thing in the distance, he was thinking this was a dynamite shack 50 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:16,600 that had blown up so he calls off the chase of the cedar and he drives towards the kerfuffle 51 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:17,600 going on. 52 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,920 I'm curious, was there a dynamite shack in that direction or is this just like on the 53 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:22,920 track? 54 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:25,320 There was actually a dynamite shack in that direction I guess. 55 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,000 Can you imagine just making it up? 56 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,680 I feel like he's been burned one too many times by a dynamite shack in the past. 57 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,440 I gotta be careful on this one. 58 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:41,720 So Zamora takes his car off road and he struggles to get his car up a steep hill. 59 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:47,360 He tries one or two times and he's successful on the third attempt and he notes no further 60 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:48,360 noise. 61 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:54,040 For the next 10 to 15 seconds he proceeded west looking for the shack whose precise location 62 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,120 he did not recall so it is precisely in the area of a dynamite shack. 63 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,680 I don't know why there's a shack in the middle of the desert holding dynamite but… 64 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,760 Do we know what a dynamite shack is? 65 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,440 Is it a place where they store dynamite or is it a place where they make dynamite? 66 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:09,440 I don't know. 67 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:10,960 I would assume it's stored but I don't know for sure. 68 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,040 I'm just picturing like a lonely shack in the middle of the desert. 69 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:15,040 I'm almost picturing that. 70 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:16,520 Like say TNT on it. 71 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:17,520 Dynamite? 72 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:18,520 Yeah. 73 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:24,680 So it was here that he notices the shiny object quote from Zamora to the south about 74 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:31,400 150 to 200 yards end quote and at first he took to be an overturned white car up on the 75 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:36,440 radiator or on the trunk so it's standing either straight up or on the front of it I 76 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,400 think is how a radiator would be on a car. 77 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:44,800 There's two people standing outside of what he thinks is his car wreck one of whom seemed 78 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,200 to notice him with some surprise and gave a start. 79 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:53,840 The shiny object was like aluminum it was whiteish against the maced background but 80 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:59,680 not chrome and shaped like the letter O. Having stopped for a couple of seconds Zamora approached 81 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:05,040 this car meaning to help thinking that it was an accident he speeds over there and Zamora 82 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:10,080 only caught a brief sighting of the two people in white coveralls beside the car. 83 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:16,120 He recalls nothing special about them he doesn't recall noting any particular shape possibly 84 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:21,400 any hats or head gear just outlines of people basically that he's seeing and the people 85 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,080 appeared normal in shape but possibly small adults or large kids. 86 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,960 Zamora is driving towards the scene radioing his dispatcher to say he would be out of his 87 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,520 car checking the car in the arroyo. 88 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,600 He stopped his car got out and attended to the radio microphone which he had dropped 89 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,360 then he started to approach the object. 90 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,240 According to Zamora he hardly turned around from the car when he heard a roar and it was 91 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,800 not exactly a blast so as soon as he's approaching this he hears another roar. 92 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:57,160 Very loud roar incredibly loud as close as he was to it wasn't like a jet knows what 93 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,400 a jet sounds like. 94 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:04,520 It starts in low frequency quickly then grows in frequency higher tone and in loudness from 95 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,560 loud to very loud so loud. 96 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,000 So we're on the same page when we're saying roar we're talking about like a plane or something 97 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,240 along those lines not that but also not a bear roar. 98 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:21,400 Yeah like a dynamite explode like a roar yeah not like a dinosaur roar we're gonna go with 99 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,680 dinosaur dinosaur is what I think of. 100 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:25,480 Okay lion dinosaurs are. 101 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,960 Well we don't know for sure if dinosaurs word but sure. 102 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,560 I feel like I do I've seen your head stick. 103 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:36,440 Okay the same time as the roar he sees more flame this is reminiscent to me of the initial 104 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:42,120 setting flame under the object what he thought was a correct object was starting to go straight 105 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:48,840 up slowly up and it rose straight up I feel like that's Dr. Seuss Esk there the flame 106 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:53,800 was light blue and at the bottom was sort of orange color from this angle he saw the 107 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,760 side of the object not and as first noted. 108 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,760 It was difficult to describe the flame for Zamora he thought from the roar that it might 109 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,000 blow up and that the flame might have come from the underside of the object at the middle 110 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,000 possibly a four feet area very rough guessed from Zamora. 111 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,480 I thought it would be fun to read these because they are such in point form I thought I would 112 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,120 challenge myself to read this all legibly to you. 113 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,720 He cannot describe the flame further except it was blue and orange as he I feel like he 114 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,960 was reaching there to add any more detail no smoke except dust in the immediate area 115 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:30,400 much as dust a lot. 116 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:35,240 Keeping the object in view he ran behind his car bumping his leg on the rear fender and 117 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:40,320 dropping his glasses he continued running northwards away from the object which was still near 118 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,880 the ground he now gives a more detailed description of the object oh good. 119 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:51,280 Well it was oval in shape smooth no windows or doors noted red lettering of some type 120 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:57,800 the insignia was about two and a half feet high and about two feet wide I guess and it 121 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,480 was in the middle of the object. 122 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:04,840 The object still was like an aluminum white he also noted that the object was still on 123 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:10,600 the ground when the roar started and Zamora describes how the object took off. 124 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:15,640 After he fell by the car and his glasses fell off he kept running to the north with the 125 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,560 car between him and the object. 126 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,280 He backed back a couple of times and noted the object to rise to about the level of his 127 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,080 car about 20 to 25 feet what that can't be right. 128 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,160 Well is he not up on like a hill? 129 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,600 Oh right yes he is on a hill. 130 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,960 I'm assuming the ground isn't flat yeah. 131 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,120 Okay I was just thinking that he right I forgot that detail thank you. 132 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,200 They had such tall cars in this place. 133 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,000 I know I was like what the car is not 20 to 25 feet yes he went up a hill. 134 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:50,760 It took he guesses about six seconds when the object started to rise and I glanced back 135 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:56,520 I ran I guess about half way to where I ducked down about 50 feet from where the car is 136 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,920 just over the edge of the hill there we go. 137 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,840 I guess I had run about 25 feet when I glanced back and saw the object level with the car 138 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,360 and it appeared about directly over the place where it rose from. 139 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,360 I was still running and I jumped just over the hill. 140 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,680 I stopped because I did not hear the roar. 141 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:16,480 I was scared of the roar and I had planned to continue running down the hill. 142 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,760 I turned around toward the object and at the same time put my head toward the ground and 143 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,920 covering my face with my arms. 144 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,200 Being that there was no roar I looked up and I saw the object going away from me. 145 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,880 It did not come any closer to me it appeared to go in a straight line and at the same height 146 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,520 possibly 10 to 15 feet from the ground. 147 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,160 It cleared the dynamite shack by about 3 feet. 148 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,040 Oh he found the dynamite shack. 149 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,480 That seems convenient that it landed by the dynamite shack. 150 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:48,320 It is so convenient that Zamora knew where the dynamite shack was exactly. 151 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,080 The shack was about 8 feet high and the object was traveling very fast it seemed to rise 152 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,840 up and take off immediately across the country. 153 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,080 Zamora went back to his car and contacted the sheriff's office by radio. 154 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,200 Quote I picked up my glasses I left the sunglasses on the ground, got into the car and radioed 155 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:10,520 to Nep Lopez radio operator to look out the window to see if you could see an object. 156 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:11,520 He asked what is it? 157 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,360 I answered it looks like a balloon. 158 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:14,840 I don't know if he saw it. 159 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,680 If Nep looked out the window which faces north he couldn't have seen it. 160 00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:21,760 I did not tell him at the moment which window to look out of. 161 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,760 He watched the object fly away swiftly but silently and without flame. 162 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,240 As I was calling Nep I could see the object. 163 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:33,000 The object seemed to lift up slowly and to get small in the distance very fast. 164 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,920 It seemed to just clear the box canyon or 6 mile canyon mountain. 165 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,280 It disappeared as it went over the mountain. 166 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:44,360 It had no flame whatsoever as it was traveling over the ground and no smoke or noise. 167 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:49,040 Zamora inspected the area and was soon joined by a colleague Sergeant Chavez who did not 168 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,320 see the object. 169 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:55,720 Zamora gave directions to Nep Lopez on the radio and to Sergeant M.S. Chavez to get there. 170 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:00,040 He went down to where the object had been and he noted that the brush was burning in 171 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,480 several places. 172 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:07,160 At that time I heard Sergeant Chavez, New Mexico State Police at Socarro, calling me 173 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:12,320 on the radio for my location and I returned to my car, told him he was looking at me. 174 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,800 Then Sergeant Chavez came up, asked me what the trouble was because I was sweating and 175 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,040 he told me I was white, very pale. 176 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,400 I asked the sergeant to see what I saw and that was the burning brush. 177 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:28,080 Then Sergeant Chavez and I went to the spot and Sergeant Chavez pointed out the track. 178 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,560 Zamora says that he had noticed that the object had what looked like legs. 179 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:36,520 When I first saw the object, when I thought it might be a car, I saw what appeared to 180 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,600 be four legs of some type from the object to the ground. 181 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,720 At the time I didn't pay much attention to what it was, I thought it was an accident. 182 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,160 I saw the two persons. 183 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,120 I didn't pay any attention to the four legs. 184 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:53,000 The four legs were at the bottom of the object, slanting outwards to the ground. 185 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,280 The object might have been about three and a half feet from the ground at the time. 186 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:58,720 I just glanced at it. 187 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,640 Zamora tries to account for the disappearance of the two people. 188 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:06,600 I think it's interesting that in retrospect and he thinks about what he was actually 189 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,080 seeing, he remembers these details. 190 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,020 When he first thought it was just a car accident looking like a car that was like straight 191 00:12:13,020 --> 00:12:14,020 up and down. 192 00:12:14,020 --> 00:12:18,800 Yeah, that's kind of like the whole thing about from memory is it can change as it goes. 193 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,400 It can, yes. 194 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:27,160 This does seem to be a fairly recent statement of account from him, from him actually waiting 195 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:28,800 to see it from what I saw. 196 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,320 So he goes on quote from Zamora. 197 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:37,680 I can't tell how long I saw the object the second time, the close time when he was like 198 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:42,320 on the hill, possibly 20 seconds just to guess from the time I got out of the car. 199 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,400 Glanced at the object, ran from the object, jumped over the edge of the hill, then got 200 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,240 back in the car and the radio was object disappeared. 201 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:54,440 As my mic fell as I got out of my car at the scenery, I heard about two or three loud 202 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:59,400 thumps like someone possibly hammering or shutting a door or doors hard. 203 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,520 These thumps were possibly a second or less apart. 204 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,040 This was just before the roar. 205 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,400 Persons were not seen when I drove to the scene area, just before Sergeant Chavez got 206 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:10,400 to the scene. 207 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,760 I got my pen and drew a picture of the insignia on the object. 208 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:18,220 Within hours word of Zamora's encounter had reached the news, many people had heard the 209 00:13:18,220 --> 00:13:21,040 radio traffic including a few reporters. 210 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,320 In days, reporters from the Associated Press and the United Press International were in 211 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:26,320 Sikoro. 212 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,480 Members of civilian UFO study group ARPO were on the scene within two days as were officers 213 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,040 representing the US Air Force's project Blue Book. 214 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,560 Nightcap investigators appeared the following Tuesday. 215 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:42,480 The first nightcap investigator was Ray Stanford who would later write a detailed book account 216 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,600 on his investigation which I think he has more than one. 217 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,440 That's the whole Lonnie Zamora story. 218 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,640 From his eyes, I took his actual eyewitness account there of what happened. 219 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,480 Do you have any questions about the actual account? 220 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,440 There is nobody else, like it's only him, correct? 221 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:05,680 He's the only one that actually has this up close experience but there are multiple other 222 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:08,200 witnesses that I'm going to talk about a little bit. 223 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,440 Okay, well that's good. 224 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,720 I guess I do have two other questions from there. 225 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:18,360 Did they ever follow up on like why did you think it was a dynamite shack exploding? 226 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:23,320 I don't know that they follow up on it but the only reason I would imagine that it would 227 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:29,000 be was because he heard a roar and he saw the flames so I think if you know there's 228 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,880 a dynamite shack in the area which he obviously would have if he ended up next to the dynamite 229 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:34,880 shack he obviously would have. 230 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,200 I'm more so just curious if this is like from previous experience. 231 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,680 If he's like oh yeah this is kind of in that thing because like in my mind flames are not 232 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,680 something that you would associate with dynamite shacks. 233 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,400 I'm just wondering though like if you knew there is a dynamite shack somewhere and you 234 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:55,760 happen to be driving by where you know it is and you see something similar maybe it's 235 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,840 just I mean the first thought he had when he saw like an object that he later recalled 236 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,600 having legs was a car accident. 237 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,640 I just find that weird because you don't have to say what you thought it was you just need 238 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:13,360 to see there's flames and I had to go inspect it as a police officer does that not make sense? 239 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,360 In my mind it kind of almost says I had either an idea that this was going to happen or I've 240 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,280 had experience with dynamite shacks exploding in the pan. 241 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,240 You're very right but he could just be- 242 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,560 There's a whole other part of the story that is left out of this fans universe. 243 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:31,160 He could just be saying his thought giving as detailed as an account as he can even though 244 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,840 it's not necessary for him to be giving that account but you're right he didn't need to 245 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,680 be in there yet it is. 246 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,840 I feel like if I gave an account of something I would give my entire threat process at the 247 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:44,960 same time going through it as well. 248 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,320 Can you imagine being the one taking that down and you're like yeah and I saw these flames 249 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,360 and I just assumed it was the dynamite shack. 250 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,040 I feel like you have to ask a question at that point. 251 00:15:55,040 --> 00:16:00,480 That's a good storyteller though because he's telling why he got up he- 252 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,560 That's a bad investigator that didn't say why. 253 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:04,560 Yeah. 254 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,280 I'm sorry I got stuck on that part I kind of the rest of the story kind of is at the 255 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,960 back of my mind as you can quite hear the whole thing. 256 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,440 It seems like an odd thing it's kind of like one most of the time we get to those stories 257 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,400 and we say why didn't you ask about the penis if you're calling it a man. 258 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,160 This is kind of like that in my mind there's a dynamite shack that completely went unquestionably. 259 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,040 Maybe he was just waiting for it to like explode one day. 260 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:32,720 I don't know obviously it was on his mind like it finally blew that's what that thought 261 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,320 process says to me. 262 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,680 Wait did he think it was that kind of blue book? 263 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:37,680 Yeah. 264 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,000 Blue book. 265 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,040 Maybe just logically in his head I mean not everybody thinks about things logically the 266 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,040 same. 267 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:50,320 Yeah and I just need to be known that that's a bad investigator who did not fall on that. 268 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:51,520 Did you have another question? 269 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,400 I'm sorry I was just too consumed with that I can't even remember my text. 270 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:55,400 That was it okay. 271 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,200 I think there was another one but I just like- 272 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,200 I know I thought you said you were in the one. 273 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:01,200 That's fine. 274 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:08,320 It seems like being like one of the most well documented eye witness accounts of a UFO not 275 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:15,520 only because it was witnessed by a law enforcement officer another one came and saw other evidence 276 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,760 which would be the sergeant that Zamora called in to come and look as well just shortly after 277 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:26,240 it happened and he saw whatever it was that was on fire and he saw the indents in the 278 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:27,240 sand. 279 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,520 I don't know what it was but it's a desert I assume it's sand. 280 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,760 The indents of like the four legs that were on the craft. 281 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:40,640 There were other witnesses and several primary witnesses emerged to report stages and aspects 282 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:46,880 of the event which included the craft's approach, din, conspicuous flame and physical evidence 283 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,000 left behind immediately afterward. 284 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,160 It was however Lonnie Zamora a new Mexico State Police officer who was on duty at the 285 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,960 time who came closest to the object and provided the most prolonged and comprehensive account 286 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,680 like I just said poorly compared to that some physical trace evidence was left behind which 287 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:11,120 was burned vegetation and soil ground landing impressions metal scrappings on a broken rock 288 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:16,320 in one of the impressions and was subsequently observed and analyzed by investigators for 289 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,520 the military law enforcement and civilian UFO groups. 290 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,000 I'm just curious could any of that have been associated with say a dynamite shack in the 291 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,000 area. 292 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,120 Maybe from my understanding it was very close by. 293 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:30,840 Because I don't know how they load dynamite from a shack or what metal scrapings might 294 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,480 come of that I don't know. 295 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,560 Why it's even kept in a shack in the middle of the area. 296 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:36,560 Yeah. 297 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,280 You would think it would be unstable in the heat like that. 298 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,000 I don't know anything about dynamite. 299 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,560 I don't have a dynamite shack. 300 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:46,600 This again a complete part of the story that was unquestioned by the investigator. 301 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:47,600 That's true. 302 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,480 I want to know more about that dynamite shack. 303 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:55,320 Several independent witnesses reported either an egg shaped craft or a bluish flame at roughly 304 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,680 the same time and in the same area. 305 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,200 Some of them within minutes of Zamora's encounter before word of it had spread. 306 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:07,640 So Stanford the dude who investigated this and wrote a book right pretty sure. 307 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:13,280 He wrote of a number of corroborating witnesses in his books including two tourists named 308 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:18,680 Paul Kice and Larry Kratzer who were approaching Sakaro in the car from the southwest less 309 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,200 than a mile from the landing site. 310 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,240 I wonder if this is the speed in cars Zamora was trying to catch. 311 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,760 They apparently witnessed either the landing or take off and reported seeing the flame 312 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,840 and brownish dust being kicked up. 313 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:36,480 Their story was reported in the Debuki, Iowa Telegraph, herald a few days after their return 314 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,280 of which I will not be reading here. 315 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,280 Do your own research. 316 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:46,000 Do you find it strange most UFO encounters have like an otherworldly yield to them like 317 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,960 it's something our aircraft couldn't do but this one kind of just has like. 318 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,480 Yeah it feels like it could just be high military tech that has not been defiled. 319 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:01,280 I don't even know that it would be high military tech if it's starting Russian stuff on fire. 320 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:06,240 No that's true but like military tech just doesn't generally start fires like that. 321 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,160 Yeah it seems like even less technically savvy. 322 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,800 I don't think it's less technically savvy I think they're testing something that didn't 323 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,760 work the way they are anticipating maybe. 324 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,800 Yeah okay I can get behind that. 325 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,480 Yeah that's the field that I'm getting from it so far even though I'm a big fan of this 326 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:23,480 case. 327 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,120 There's no Travis Walton though I will tell you that much. 328 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:33,760 So another witness was a family of five where tourists from Colorado headed north also saw 329 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:39,640 the oval shaped object as it approached the car at a very low altitude going east to west 330 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:40,840 just south of town. 331 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,320 It passed directly over their car only a few feet above it and after the encounter the 332 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,520 tourists stopped for gas and the car. 333 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,760 Their identity was never discovered but the story was learned from the service station 334 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:57,880 operator Opal Grinder who reported the incident at the time and later sounded affidavit in 335 00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:59,840 1967. 336 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,640 According to Grinder the husband told him your aircraft sure fly low around here and 337 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,880 that the object almost took the roof of their car off. 338 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,480 The man thought it was in trouble since it came down west of the highway instead of the 339 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,320 nearby airport to the south. 340 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:19,280 He saw the police car headed up the hill towards it and he thought to render assistance. 341 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:24,560 According to Stanford another witness called an Albuquerque television station around 5.30 342 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:30,040 pm to report an oval object at low altitude traveling slowly south towards the car. 343 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:36,080 This report was also brought up by KSRC's Sakaro Radio Newsman Walter Schrode when 344 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,000 he interviewed Zamora on the radio the next day. 345 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,080 Zamora said he hadn't heard of the report. 346 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:46,000 Schrode thought that this was likely the same object that Zamora encountered only 20 minutes 347 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,520 later and helped core operators report. 348 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,120 Several other stories appeared in New Mexico newspapers and succeeding days of other sightings 349 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:58,800 of oval shaped objects including another landing case with burn soil near La Madera in northern 350 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,120 New Mexico also similar to the Sakaro incident. 351 00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:07,600 The FBI report on the La Madera case further noted the witness reporting a blue white flame 352 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,440 associated with the object for rectangular, I don't know what for rectangular means maybe 353 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:18,480 landing gears, V shaped landing marks and several circle marks about 4 inches in diameter. 354 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,680 Stanford also noted there was a large number of oral witnesses to the object's loud roar 355 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,480 during takeoff and landing. 356 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:30,040 One member of the Sakaro Sheriff's office told him that hundreds of persons on the south 357 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,480 side of town had heard it. 358 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,880 Stanford said he personally spoke to two women who heard the roar just before 6 pm and they 359 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,480 said there were two distinct roars maybe emitted or so apart. 360 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,320 I just have to add that that's weird that that one is corroborated probably the most 361 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:49,240 and that's probably the least attached to a UFO sighting of the things that have happened 362 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,920 that he is saying happened which really makes me believe that it's something more terrestrial 363 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:54,920 made. 364 00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:01,400 Yeah I mean I would love to just have regular noises happen around me and me consistently 365 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,840 say that it's a UFO. 366 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,280 You would think for myself that would happen way more than it actually does. 367 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,240 I don't know that I've ever, well sometimes, I'm like hey is that a UFO but it's joking 368 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:17,160 in most cases I wouldn't just attribute a loud roar to a UFO I don't think. 369 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:22,000 You could hear that just regular in regular life unless you see a dinosaur roar. 370 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,160 Yeah it really depends what we're talking about for roars and maybe just a very distinct 371 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,560 roar because you're not going to hear a dinosaur roar in everyday life unless you're watching 372 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,520 Jurassic Park as we talk about earlier. 373 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,160 Oh no that one I for sure would be like someone's watching Jurassic Park or there's a T-Rex 374 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:37,160 in the backyard. 375 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,720 It's probably the first one. 376 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:42,720 But he did say it also. 377 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,720 Or the local dynamite shack. 378 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,600 See again they did not follow that line of questioning so we cannot conform nor deny 379 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:55,760 that part but he also did say it was distinctly different from a plane so I don't know how 380 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:56,960 to explain that one. 381 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,560 It's just like that's not something I don't think we've ever actually brought up the sound 382 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,560 of a UFO before this one. 383 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,360 Most people will say that there isn't a sound. 384 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:05,360 Yeah exactly. 385 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,880 It's a Tesla's if it's my head that's what a UFO sounds like. 386 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,200 Yeah well in my mind it's the sound of what is that wax paper on a comb in that one of 387 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,200 the senses. 388 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,200 It's the same thing as a Tesla. 389 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:16,200 Yeah. 390 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,280 That's the same sound. 391 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:19,280 That's worth that. 392 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:20,280 That was my true. 393 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:21,280 That's where Tesla got it. 394 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,920 Elon Musk is incredibly uncreative so he just stole it. 395 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,280 Yeah he had the. 396 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,240 And sorry by he I mean people he paid to do what it is. 397 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,840 He was like I kind of want it to sound like this the wax paper over the comb and then 398 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:33,840 they did it. 399 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,440 Elon Musk. 400 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:36,440 Is that the right name? 401 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,440 Sure why not. 402 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:38,440 Tesla Tesla. 403 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,440 Yeah Elon Musk. 404 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,920 In addition to the above witnesses Stanford said there were three other persons who called 405 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,840 the police dispatcher immediately following the incident. 406 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,800 I do love the guy that called the news like that's like seeing something hearing a big 407 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,280 roar and being like I'm going to call global news. 408 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,800 Yeah which actually does happen. 409 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,320 We've talked about have we talked about the horn sound. 410 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:01,320 I can't remember. 411 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,840 We might have many on it. 412 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,080 We've talked about a lot of stuff now. 413 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,920 I think we've talked about it in a mini. 414 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:06,920 Like a car horn. 415 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,320 No like a trumpet horn and they'll or the humming. 416 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,000 Come up briefly I believe. 417 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,560 Yeah I think the hums come up too but never a roar. 418 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,600 Yeah never a roar. 419 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:24,840 In October 2009 Stanford first publicly revealed Sergeant Shavins. 420 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,720 The first policeman to provide backup for somewhere had privately confided to fellow 421 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:36,200 police officers that he too had seen the object rapidly departing to the west over the mountains 422 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,680 as he approached the site. 423 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:43,240 In various interviews Zamora somewhat confirmed the possibility saying Chavez was at the scene 424 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,800 within about two minutes after he radioed him for backup. 425 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,520 That is excellent service from his superior. 426 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:55,640 The object was still about a couple of moments up there when he had arrived and if Chavez 427 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,400 had just paid attention he would have seen it flying off towards the mountains. 428 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:06,080 However in public statement Chavez maintained that he arrived too late to see the object. 429 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:11,240 When Chavez first arrived at Zamora's position where the object had departed he also noted 430 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,600 that burnt bushes still smoldering and Zamora appeared to be in the state of shock. 431 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,920 Multiple policemen arrived soon after to help investigate including Ted Jordan and James 432 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:22,920 Lucky. 433 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,240 All noted fresh burning at the site. 434 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,080 He and Chavez were quoted in the Socarro newspaper saying that clumps of grass and burned grease 435 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,160 wood bushes were still hot when they arrived. 436 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,480 Chavez was also quoted saying that the dry grass was still smoldering as were the grease 437 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:38,480 wood plants. 438 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,640 Zamora was likewise quoted about the green bush burned bare by exhaust heat. 439 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,560 Okay that's a relatable statement I feel like at this point down to earth a matter 440 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,040 of fact and that it was still smoking several minutes after the craft's departure. 441 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:58,240 The FBI report written by the agent on the scene within two hours similarly reported 442 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:03,160 that all first responders noted four irregularly shaped smoldering areas. 443 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:08,440 Chavez was again quoted in an Air Force report written two days later about smoking brush. 444 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,720 Chavez then went to the area where the craft or thing was supposedly sited and found four 445 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,800 fresh indentations in the ground and several charred and burned bushes. 446 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,920 Smoke appeared to come from the bush and he assumed it was burning however no coals were 447 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,800 visible and the charred portions of the bush were cold to the touch. 448 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,720 Chavez was further reported securing the area and scouring the ground looking for the presence 449 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,400 of other human activity. 450 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,040 He could find no other tire tracks besides Zamoras and was adamant that there was no 451 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,720 other track activity footprints or other marks in the area. 452 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,120 In addition Chavez was also quoted in the report saying that the indentations appeared 453 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:45,120 to be new. 454 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:50,880 He stated that the marks were definitely fresh and the dirt showed evidence of dew or moisture. 455 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:56,720 Similarly several policemen later told Stanford that whatever had produced the rectangular 456 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:02,480 wedge shaped landing traces appeared to have penetrated into the moist subsoil as the bottoms 457 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,480 of the traces were moist for several hours suggesting that the traces were freshly made. 458 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:15,440 Hynek also commented on the freshness of the soil impressions in a letter to astronomer 459 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:21,040 Donald Menzel, quote, I have the word of nine witnesses who saw the marks within hours of 460 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,400 the incident who tell me the center of the marks were moist as though the top soil had 461 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,840 been freshly pushed aside, end quote. 462 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:33,080 The FBI investigator also observed that the rectangular marks seem to have been made by 463 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,400 an object going into the earth at an angle from a center line pushing some earth to the 464 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,400 far side also observed with the- 465 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,920 I just want to make sure there was no burn mark in the middle of these like four marks 466 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:44,920 right? 467 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,400 It doesn't seem like there was. 468 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,880 No there was just fire everywhere but there's no burn mark on the ground which is kind of 469 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:50,880 a lot. 470 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:56,240 Yeah some of the details seem kind of weird about it like it looks burned but cold to 471 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,160 the touch when they're there like super soon. 472 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:04,160 Also observed were three circular marks in the earth which were small approximately four 473 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,880 inches in diameter and penetrated in the sandy earth approximately one eighth of an inch. 474 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:16,520 Those are the other witnesses and witnesses of what was going on, witnesses that cooperated 475 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:22,960 what Lonnie Zamora saw as well as witnesses that saw the aftermath directly after what 476 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,520 Lonnie Zamora had witnessed. 477 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:31,560 Next I go into the fact that it was immediately investigated by the US Army, the US Air Force 478 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:36,440 and the FBI and received considerable coverage in the mass media. 479 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:42,360 It blew up for Zamora, I know when I was just talking he had already been giving statements 480 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,000 and talking to the media like the next day. 481 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:50,440 So the evening of the encounter Army Captain Richard T. Holder then the senior officer 482 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:56,320 at White Sands as the higher ranking officer had gone home for the weekend and FBI agent 483 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,960 author Burns Jr. together interviewed Zamora. 484 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,120 I don't know why we have to know that he had gone home for the weekend. 485 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,440 We need to know why they dropped the ball on the dynamite shack. 486 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,520 I don't think that it will ever come up. 487 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:09,880 Reasons remain unclear. 488 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,400 The FBI asked that their presence at the scene be kept quiet. 489 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,040 Zamora speculated that the object was some kind of newly developed craft being tested 490 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:23,160 at White Sands missile range or the nearby Hollamann Air Force Base. 491 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:28,280 Holder shot down this idea and was later quoted in a Sakaro newspaper saying that there was 492 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:34,720 in military custody no object that would compare to the object described which is a super weird 493 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,000 thing to say. 494 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,800 There was no known firing mission in progress at the time of the occurrence and would produce 495 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,200 the conditions reported. 496 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,840 I think with that statement right there I'm convinced that it was the Air Force. 497 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:46,840 What do you think he would be like? 498 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,720 Yeah, we were testing top secret stuff. 499 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,280 And if they were wouldn't it be like, uh, no, we don't own anything that would do that. 500 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,960 If they were testing top secret stuff they would have got Dodie on it. 501 00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,200 He was never mind. 502 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,160 He's not born yet or at least he's very young. 503 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,080 Dodie would have been like it for sure was a UFO. 504 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,840 Here's some documents. 505 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,800 I'll even get it to show up again. 506 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,720 Oh yeah, trust me. 507 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,160 After interviewing Zamora, Holder and several military police officers went to the scene 508 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,600 using flashlights. 509 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,480 They cordoned off the site, took measurements and took samples of the sand and the scorched 510 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:23,480 bushes. 511 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:30,320 The claim of Fuse Sand being recovered from the landing site was for some time unsubstantiated. 512 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,320 Even Heineck said he had not heard such rumors during the investigation. 513 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,080 The next morning, a Sunday, Holder took a telephone call from a colonel at the joint 514 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:40,160 chiefs of staff. 515 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,560 As a young captain, Holder was surprised and nervous to speak to such an important high 516 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,000 raking officer. 517 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,800 At the colonel's command, Holder gave a report of his investigation over a secure scrambled 518 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:51,800 line. 519 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,520 Years later, Holder would wonder about such important US military officials, why in the 520 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,720 world were they so interested. 521 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,960 So, astronomer J. L. and Heineck, he was an astronomer? 522 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,760 Physicist slash astronomer, yeah. 523 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,400 Blue Books consultant arrived in Socarro on Tuesday, April 28th. 524 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,360 He met with Zamora and Shabbos and interviewed them about the encounter. 525 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,720 Heineck and Air Force Major Hector Quintanilla initially thought the sighting might be explained 526 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,480 as a test of lunar excursion module. 527 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,520 So, after some investigation, Heineck determined that this could be definitely ruled out as 528 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,880 an explanation for what Zamora saw. 529 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:35,000 In a memorandum, Heineck wrote that Zamora and Shabbos were very anti AF Air Force. 530 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,880 Now we know that as as fuck. 531 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,120 The Air Force was suggesting that the affair was a hoax, but Zamora was pretty sore at 532 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,120 being regarded as a romance-er, and it took over half an hour for Heineck to thaw him 533 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,200 out and hear the account from the only eyewitness. 534 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,600 Heineck also wrote that the AF is in a spot over Socarro. 535 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,400 They were also suggesting that the encounter could be attributed to Zamora having seen an 536 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,960 unidentified military craft, though no craft could be matched to Zamora's report. 537 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:09,000 Heineck agreed with many others that this explanation won't go down as plausible. 538 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,960 Heineck further wrote, I think this case may be the Rosetta Stone. 539 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,160 There's never been a strong case with so unimpeachable eyewitness. 540 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,960 I don't understand why it would be a Rosetta Stone, because the Rosetta Stone is like how 541 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,880 you translate between languages. 542 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,200 They didn't have a way to translate to Egyptian, but they found the Rosetta Stone, which was 543 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,400 Egyptian to Greek. 544 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:34,880 I think that they are looking for a different word other than Rosetta Stone. 545 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,440 Maybe like maybe the Antikytherin device, which is like they found the computer in the 546 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,920 water, or maybe they found the smoking gun, maybe smoking gun. 547 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,520 You know what, it's actually hard to find one where you could say it's like one good 548 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,320 witness made the entire case. 549 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:57,440 Also noting his growing frustration with Blue Book, Heineck wrote the AF doesn't know what 550 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:58,440 science is. 551 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,360 I hope I read that dramatic enough. 552 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:06,800 It was one of the cases that helped persuade astronomer J.L. in Heineck, one of the primary 553 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:13,200 investigators for the Air Force that some UFO reports represented an intriguing mystery. 554 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,680 After extensive investigation, Project Blue Book was unable to come up with a conventional 555 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,400 explanation for the Zamora encounter and listed the cases unknown. 556 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,640 I mean that's fair, because we're speculating that it's just like technology of the military 557 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,720 that hasn't been disclosed at that point. 558 00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:30,720 Yeah. 559 00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:31,720 Which would be unknown. 560 00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:36,240 Yeah, that's seeming likely to me, but let's see what else they have to say about this. 561 00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:42,320 So the next thing we're going to look at is the fused sand that was mentioned very briefly, 562 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,400 because they said that it didn't really come up or nobody else had heard about it. 563 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:54,800 So in 1968, physicist and UFO researcher James E. McDonald located Mary G. Mays, who asserted 564 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,880 that when she was a University of New Mexico doctoral student in radiation biology, she 565 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,640 has been asked to analyze plant material from the Sicarocyte. 566 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,760 Afterwards, she was to turn in all records and samples and heard no more about it. 567 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,120 In an interview by McDonald, Mays reported that she and two others had worked on studying 568 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,080 physical evidence from the Sicarocyte, but she could not remember the names of the others. 569 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,400 According to Mays, she had examined the site the day after the event and had gathered plant 570 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,880 samples for analysis. 571 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,800 Mays later determined that the plants, which had allegedly been burnt by the UFO's flames, 572 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,560 were unusually completely dried out. 573 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,440 Mays also found no evidence of radiation. 574 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,000 I just want to make sure she studied both the burnt ones and normal plants that weren't 575 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,000 burnt, correct? 576 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,000 Yeeeeeeesss. 577 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,560 I mean, it doesn't specifically say that. 578 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,440 I also feel like it's kind of weird for a radiologist to make a comment on how dried 579 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:52,440 out it is. 580 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,080 The same as because, oh yeah, here's the fused sand. 581 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,200 I was like, that hasn't come out yet, but it's coming out soon. 582 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:03,880 She also found no evidence of radiation, but found two organic substances she was unable 583 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,360 to identify. 584 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:11,280 Mays also reported to McDonald an area of apparently fused sand where the sand had taken on a glassy 585 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,480 appearance near where the object had allegedly landed and then departed. 586 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:22,160 The area of glassy sand was roughly triangular, measuring about 25-30 inches at its widest. 587 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,280 Though it gradually tapered down to about 1 inch wide, it seemed about a quarter of 588 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,280 an inch thick. 589 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,320 Mays thought the glassy areas looked as if a hot jet hit it. 590 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,880 Mays said she investigated to determine the other people who investigated the site, but 591 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:41,040 McDonald's files gave no indication she ever contacted him about the object. 592 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,800 Now I'm just gonna bring it up quickly here. 593 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:49,600 I can't recall if it had to do with the fused sand or there was also mention of on a rock. 594 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,880 There was a little bit of metal that they found. 595 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,480 Yeah, there were shavings found. 596 00:36:53,480 --> 00:37:00,040 Yeah, my notes have left this out miraculously, but they do send this off for testing. 597 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:05,560 The original scientist that gets a hold of it and analyzes it does say that it's not 598 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,160 anything that could be found here on earth. 599 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:15,280 They then take the sample for further analysis because it came back as unknown. 600 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,400 They actually send it off to NASA and it's never seen again. 601 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:24,800 When it was followed up on to see where this sample had gone, they reply the other guy 602 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,480 is fired, he wasn't doing his job properly and they don't know where the samples went. 603 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,720 Just something to mention in there that that happened alongside of this and I don't know 604 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:39,080 if I missed it because it wasn't the fused sand and it was in fact the metal samples. 605 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:44,520 I find those comments very weird from the scientists who was analyzing the radiation. 606 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,120 That's what she was hired for, correct? 607 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,320 That there was no radiation, but the plants were very dried out. 608 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:50,320 Maybe. 609 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,400 And there was fused sand. 610 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,600 That just seems like weird comments from her. 611 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,880 That's not her specialty. 612 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,880 Why are you commenting on that? 613 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,040 You wouldn't be looking at that. 614 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:03,320 I wouldn't be looking for fused sand if I was literally there because I wouldn't know 615 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:04,320 what to look for. 616 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,160 If they say like, hey, check this place out with a Geiger counter. 617 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,320 Are you going to say I didn't find anything but there's some fused sand over there? 618 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,320 That just seems odd. 619 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,200 Unless that's a part of her job. 620 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,200 I don't know. 621 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,600 But do radiologists do that? 622 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,360 That's kind of what I assumed. 623 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:18,360 I don't know. 624 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,360 Let's do a... 625 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,320 Maybe they do look for fused sand as well as radiation. 626 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,120 Does it indicate radiation maybe? 627 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:25,120 No, it wouldn't. 628 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,120 It would just... 629 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:27,120 That would not. 630 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:28,120 No, that would indicate like a hot temperature. 631 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,120 Yeah. 632 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:30,120 Which I don't know. 633 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,120 I don't know if Dynamite could do that. 634 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,800 And I don't think a radiologist is going to know either. 635 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,360 Nor anybody who investigated this because they didn't look into the damn Dynamite check. 636 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:43,600 It honestly seems like Lonnie is the only one that thinks that it was a Dynamite check. 637 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,000 Oh wait, or did someone else say it was? 638 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,000 Came up again. 639 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,000 It did come up again. 640 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,000 I can't remember who said it though. 641 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,280 I can't remember either. 642 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,600 We can't rewind this. 643 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:52,600 Listen. 644 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,600 I can read, but I don't feel like moving my finger a little bit to go back. 645 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:57,600 Okay. 646 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,840 Object speed and acceleration. 647 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:04,600 According to Stanford's reconstruction of the event from on-site interviews with Samora, 648 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:10,160 the time was probably no more than 20 seconds from when the object went to silent operation. 649 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,160 Rapidly accelerated towards the... 650 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,080 Is that at the base of the nearby mountains? 651 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:16,200 Maybe that's a mill. 652 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,360 And then rose rapidly a distance of about 2 miles. 653 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:24,680 Assuming constant acceleration, these numbers can be used to estimate the object's acceleration, 654 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,440 average speed, and final speed. 655 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,320 I hope someone who's not, this is not their area of expertise was doing this. 656 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:32,320 Maybe the radiologist. 657 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,040 She seems to do things to do not... 658 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:35,840 She does like to offer up advice. 659 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:36,840 Yeah. 660 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:42,640 Assuming constant acceleration, the acceleration would be given by 2D2T, where the D is the 661 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:43,640 distance of 2 miles. 662 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,720 Oh my God, I have to read those to you guys. 663 00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:46,720 I mean, I don't. 664 00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:47,800 I put it in here. 665 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:54,400 For about 3200 meters, the final speed would be 2D2T. 666 00:39:54,400 --> 00:40:04,480 This works out to a final speed of 720 miles per hour, an average speed of 360 miles per 667 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,360 hour and an acceleration of 16 meters per second squared. 668 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,280 Or about 1.7 times Earth gravity of 9.8 meters per second. 669 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,080 They had me at 720 miles per hour, that seems like a high number. 670 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:23,800 I don't know about the other ones, maybe they're high, but 720 miles for sure, that's high. 671 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:29,480 These high values rule out many conventional explanations, such as a helicopter or balloon, 672 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,760 a high performance jet aircraft, or rocket propulsion could conceivably produce the acceleration 673 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,680 in near supersonic speed, but neither forms of propulsion are silent. 674 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:44,760 The Air Force report on the incident also said, but it wasn't silent, it roared. 675 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,560 It roared when it was taking off. 676 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,080 There was a point where it should have been making noise and it wasn't. 677 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,560 They're also just going off of like to come up with a precise speed. 678 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,160 They have to like assume that he was very precise in his measurement of this entire 679 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:00,480 thing taking place. 680 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:05,160 No, no, in this recreation, they just say that they've recreated it based on what he 681 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,760 said, so I don't know how they're calculating that at all. 682 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:13,720 So yeah, I mean, that gives them a rough estimate of 720 miles per hour. 683 00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:16,320 That's the one I'm going by because it's the only one that I know. 684 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,320 But you think they give like a range, not just like this exact speed, because he probably, 685 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,160 I don't think he says like exactly that amount of time. 686 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,520 No, he doesn't specifically, he didn't know. 687 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,720 It could have been this, but he didn't know. 688 00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:34,960 No missing time, by the way, a high performance jet aircraft or rocket propulsion could conceivably 689 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,400 produce the acceleration or nearest supersonic speed, but neither forms of propulsion are 690 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:40,400 silent. 691 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,400 The Air Force report on the incident also said that they analyzed the soil and found 692 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:51,080 no evidence of chemical propellants, as might be expected from a jet or most rocket engines. 693 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:56,120 Further, no contemporary craft was capable of vertical takeoff and such high speeds. 694 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:57,120 Really? 695 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,640 The oval object described by Zamora also lacked any wings or other external structures 696 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:03,440 that might have provided lift. 697 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:04,640 What year was this again? 698 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,520 Like 64 somewhere in there? 699 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,400 Isn't that how like spacecraft took off? 700 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,400 They did, but they went straight up. 701 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:12,400 That's it. 702 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,040 This one goes up and then moves horizontally. 703 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:15,280 Oh yeah, okay. 704 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:16,480 I was missing that. 705 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,200 Okay, are you ready for it? 706 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,680 The last point. 707 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,160 Hooked, claims, and rebuttals. 708 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:23,160 Okay. 709 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,040 Some debunkers suggested the affair was a hoax. 710 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:31,680 Earthward astronomer Donald Menzel first suggested that Zamora had been the victim of a complex 711 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:36,520 prank engineered by high school students who planned the whole business to get Zamora. 712 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:37,520 Oh, I like that. 713 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:42,440 Heineck suggested this to some Saccoro citizens who discounted the idea. 714 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,840 Years later, Menzel argued that Zamora had misidentified a dust devil. 715 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:47,840 Wow. 716 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,080 Zahad doesn't think much of Zamora. 717 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,600 Why is the way he's saying dynamite check? 718 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:55,600 Misidentified dynamite check. 719 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,720 No, it never comes up again. 720 00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:02,560 First and prominent UFO skeptic, Philip J. Klass first suggested that the Zamora sighting 721 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,920 was due to misidentified ball lightning. 722 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,800 I love the ball lightning when they throw that around. 723 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:14,160 When this debunking was itself debunked, notably by atmospheric physicist Dr. James E. McDonald, 724 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,800 Klass switched gears and suggested that Zamora, we got to do an episode on Klass, suggested 725 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:24,720 the Zamora sighting was part of a scheme Zamora had invented with Saccaros then mayor, home, 726 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:30,040 Bersume, Jr. to attract tourism, claiming Bersume owned the land where Zamora's encounter 727 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,040 occurred. 728 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,000 In fact, Bersume didn't even own the property as Klass claimed. 729 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,920 Klass nevertheless claimed that Bersume hoped Zamora's fabricated UFO story would lure a 730 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:45,360 tourist to Saccaro and Bersume could then develop the UFO landing site into a tourist 731 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:46,360 attraction. 732 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:51,880 Both Bersume and Zamora consistently denied these accusations as ridiculous and landing 733 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,400 site was never developed even after Zamora's sighting gained national publicity. 734 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:01,720 UFO skeptic Stuart Campbell dismissed the hoax allegations of Klass. 735 00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:06,560 He has suggested that Zamora's sighting was almost certainly a mirage of cannabis. 736 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:12,400 As of 2009, the landing site reportedly remains much as it was in 1964. 737 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:13,720 Those are the debunking things. 738 00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:16,920 I hear the high school one, I think more than anything. 739 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,840 Zamora ends up- I just like to make sure it is like a movie coming right around like the 740 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,440 oh what's the name animal house movie coming out because that's like what late 60s early 741 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:26,440 70s? 742 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:27,440 Yeah, it would be. 743 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,000 I feel like somebody was watching that and said these kids probably did that too. 744 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,960 Yeah, Zamora became so tired of the subject that he eventually avoided both ufologists 745 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,840 and the Air Force taking a job managing a gasoline station. 746 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,960 He dies November 2nd 2009 in Saccaro from a heart attack. 747 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,720 He was 76 years old. 748 00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:51,160 The event and his body of evidence is sometimes deemed one of the best documented yet most 749 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,280 perplexing UFO reports. 750 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,440 Quote from J.L. and Heineck. 751 00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,400 There is no doubt that Lonnie Zamora saw an object which left quite an impression on 752 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:01,400 him. 753 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,080 There is also no question about Zamora's reliability. 754 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:09,080 He's a serious police officer, a pillar of his church and a man well versed in recognizing 755 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,440 airborne vehicles in his area. 756 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,680 He is puzzled by what he saw and frankly so are we. 757 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,720 This is the best documented case on record and still we have been unable in spite of 758 00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:22,680 thorough investigation to find the vehicle. 759 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:27,200 What in his background made us believe that he was capable of identifying things in the 760 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:28,200 air? 761 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:29,200 Just that he was a police officer? 762 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,480 Yeah, maybe he just had a hobby of it. 763 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,440 Okay, because he for sure thought it was a exploded dynamite shack. 764 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:36,520 Yeah, I don't know. 765 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:41,080 If you see flames like to me, if you see flames in the air near where you know there's a dynamite 766 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:46,120 shack, maybe that's what you think it is, just not knowing anything else. 767 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,520 That might be my first thought, but I'm just gonna finish this out and then we can talk 768 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:50,520 about it. 769 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:51,520 Okay. 770 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,080 This is the best documented case on record and still we have been unable in spite of 771 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,400 thorough investigation to find the vehicle or other stimulus that scared Zamora to the 772 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,400 point of panic. 773 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:01,400 The end. 774 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:06,040 I can't say that, you know, if I was driving past like a TNT plant or something like that 775 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,760 and I saw a fire flying through the air, I'd be like that TNT plant at it again for the 776 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:11,760 first time. 777 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:12,760 Maybe. 778 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:13,760 I don't know. 779 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,800 Maybe he's never seen it at TNT shack blow up. 780 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,160 He doesn't know what it's like. 781 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:22,360 That's true, but at the same time, nobody ever seems to look into it at all, despite the 782 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,360 fact that people even go out to the site where this happened. 783 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,920 No, it doesn't seem to be that anybody even looked at it to be like, did it actually blow 784 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:30,920 up? 785 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,040 No, or maybe it has something to do with everything that is going on here. 786 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,640 Is the dynamite okay? 787 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:36,840 Is it not okay? 788 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,640 Maybe the dynamite's gone. 789 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,560 Maybe it exploded years ago. 790 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:45,640 Maybe they were packing dynamite into its casing or something like that and had an incident. 791 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:46,640 I don't know. 792 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:52,000 Yeah, or maybe the mothman took it over because we all know that they like TNT plants. 793 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,840 So maybe it was a mothman. 794 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,680 Because they never looked into the dynamite shack. 795 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,240 We're going to have to say that's just as plausible as anything else. 796 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:00,240 Probably is. 797 00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:03,280 They do have red eyes and sometimes they look like flames. 798 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,440 But I'm just going to chalk this one up once again to the investigators not having the 799 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,360 keen insight or direction that we would have in an investigation. 800 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,480 And they missed the boat on being able to properly identify what was going on here because 801 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:17,480 of it. 802 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,520 It did seem to center solely on that idea at first, didn't it? 803 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:22,840 Yeah, and then they just move on. 804 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:23,840 Okay, whatever. 805 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:24,840 That can fuck right off. 806 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,320 Let's talk about just this picture of itself. 807 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:28,320 That's it. 808 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:29,320 Yeah. 809 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:30,320 Even though it was close by. 810 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:31,560 And he thought it was involved. 811 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,640 Anyhow, that's my thoughts on it. 812 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,480 I've really been stuck with that. 813 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:36,480 I could see why. 814 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,840 My thoughts are, I don't know. 815 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:44,600 This Belani Zamora one is, I mean, even in Blue Book, it's marked as a mystery. 816 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:49,040 But to me, it has just two regular earth elements in it. 817 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,200 Or it to be supernatural in nature. 818 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,960 And by supernatural, I mean unearthly. 819 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,760 I don't know if we can even classify that as unearthly though. 820 00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:58,760 Like that's the weird part. 821 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,000 Yeah, the thing's flying fast, not that fast. 822 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:03,960 It's making noises, which is unordinary. 823 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:08,400 We don't see any occupants of it, and I don't, it just doesn't seem that weird. 824 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,640 I love how before it, it's taking off and it's making banging sound. 825 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,640 No, like, hard doors closing twice. 826 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:23,520 For the FBI and the Air Force to have been on the scene so quickly also, that makes me 827 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,160 think that it was probably something to do with them. 828 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,640 Or it had to have been, or even if it was, it couldn't have been high school students 829 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:31,920 with anything flying. 830 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:33,240 It couldn't have been. 831 00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:36,520 Yeah, but also if the FBI were involved, they were investigated. 832 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,480 So they probably would have said something and it would have been redacted or classified. 833 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,600 It's true, high school students wouldn't have been able to get away with that. 834 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:47,000 But at the same time, even if it was, they're close to an Air Force base, which would also 835 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,920 explain why they came. 836 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:53,240 But I just love that it was setting the shrubbery on fire. 837 00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:56,920 And that would actually, it would be pretty hilarious in a tragic kind of way if there's 838 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,920 like an entire subcategory that we could do of UFO fires started. 839 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,240 I wonder if there is. 840 00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:04,680 But that is a topic for another episode. 841 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:05,920 Could it be a short one? 842 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:07,160 It would be a very short one. 843 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,160 There are none. 844 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,600 We'll see you next week. 845 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,640 UFOs starting fires. 846 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,920 UFO glides above California wildfire. 847 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,800 Okay, that's not quite what we're thinking. 848 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,480 Claiming UFO over Canada. 849 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,360 UFO on fire, something out of this world. 850 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:26,800 But yeah, that speculation is probably best for us to do off this podcast. 851 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,640 In any event, I have been Taylor. 852 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:29,640 Here we're Chelsea. 853 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:30,640 We are Journey to the Fringe. 854 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:31,640 Thank you all for listening. 855 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:32,640 See you next week. 856 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:33,640 Bye. 857 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,280 Thank you for listening to Journey to the Fringe. 858 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:43,480 If you have liked what you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe, or follow, 859 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,640 depending on what venue you are listening to us through. 860 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:52,760 Also please, if possible, leave a five star review as that really helps us in the algorithms. 861 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,600 Should you wish to interact with us, please check us out on your social media of choice. 862 00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,320 I bet you we are there. 863 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,800 And if you really want to communicate with us and give us ideas for new episodes or tell 864 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:10,720 us that we're wrong and terrible, either way, please send us an email at journeytothefringe.com. 865 00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:32,520 For now, I'll see you in the next episode.